Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - The Power of Pain with Julia Samuel #123

Episode Date: September 15, 2020

CAUTION: Contains mild swearing and adult themes. If there is any certainty in life, it is that things will never stay the same, yet so many of us struggle to embrace and accept change. In the conversation today, Julia Samuel, a leading British psychotherapist, with over 3 decades of experience teaches us how we can all adapt and thrive during our most difficult and transformative experiences. Julia is passionate that pain is the agent of change – whether that’s through grieving someone that has died or through what Julia calls, ‘living losses’ (e.g. loss of job, a health crisis, or as many of us are experiencing at the moment, the loss of a life that we used to lead). We talk about how the way we respond to change, in many ways determines how our lives will unfold. Julia explains how love is powerful medicine and that a strong predictor of outcomes in grief is love and connection to others. We delve into transgenerational trauma, my own journey with grief and, importantly, Julia explains how to talk about death - especially with our children. This is a really enlightening conversation and I hope you get as much from it as I did. Show notes available at: https://drchatterjee.com/123 Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

I want to talk about how life is change and that we think we have control and then we don't. And so those that find ways to support themselves to adapt and change, thrive, and those that block it and try and anesthetize their way out of it, have less joy and less success in life. Hi, my name is Rangan Chastee. Welcome to Feel Better, Live More. Hello and welcome back to episode 123 of the podcast. I hope you are having a good week. For me, it is really good to be back in the flow of a new podcast season. Feedback to last week's show with Jay Shetty has been wonderful. In fact, I've got to say that one of the most noticeable things has

been how many messages I receive from listeners expressing their gratitude for the podcast in a really specific way. You may recall that was a key learning from last week's show, Now, you may recall that was a key learning from last week's show, and it was amazing to see how many of you actually put it into practice. So, thank you to everyone who sent me a message. I very much appreciate it, and I hope you took some time to notice how you felt straight after sending the message. Gratitude is a transformative practice, both for the receiver, but also for the sender. Now, the topic of today's conversation is change. And my guest is the leading British psychotherapist, Julia Samuel. Julia has spent over 30 years in practice and is founder patron of Child Bereavement UK. In her latest book, This Too Shall Pass, she beautifully explains

how change is the only constant in life. Change is something we have all seen and experienced over the last few months as the fabric of day-to-day life has been completely transformed. So if change is the natural order of things, why do so many of us struggle and resist it? Well, in the conversation today, Julia teaches us how we can all adopt and thrive during our most difficult experiences. We talk about the inevitability of change and how the way we respond to it in many ways determines how our lives will unfold. Julia is passionate that pain is the agent of change, whether that's through grieving someone that has died or through what Julia calls living losses. For example, the loss of a job, a health crisis, or as many of us are experiencing

at the moment, the loss of a life that we used to lead. We also talk about busyness and how often we use it as a distraction tool to stop us feeling our emotions. But the thing about emotions is you can't hide from them. They will always come out in the end. Julia explains how love is the most powerful medicine and that a strong predictor of outcomes in grief is love and connection to others. We also discussed transgenerational trauma and my own journey with grief. I really would encourage you to listen through to the very end as Julia shares some wonderful insights on how to deal with and talk about death, particularly with your children. how to deal with and talk about death, particularly with your children. This is a powerful conversation that in many ways has never been more important because of the times we are living in. I really think you're going to get a lot out of it. Now, on to my conversation with the wonderful Julia Samuel.

I want to talk about how life is change and that we think we have control and then we don't. And so those that find ways to support themselves to adapt and change, thrive, and those that block it and try and anesthetize their way out of it have less joy and less success in life yeah and it's with the volume turned up in the time of corona yeah for sure so how have you coped with the pandemic and the last few months i've been i've been up and down i mean i've been very lucky i wasn't in a city. So I was out in the

country, which was really good. The pandemic hit just as my book launched. So everything in some ways was wiped from my diary. But because it's my work is about change and the process of change and supporting people through change, I was incredibly busy. But I could sometimes I'd feel like the Jaws music, doom, dum, dum, dum, coming through my system. And I had to say to myself, am I going to take my own medicine or am I going to kind of do all the things? You know, all of us have default modes of coping with difficulty. And most of the ways that we cope with difficulty is to avoid it. So don't think about it, don't process it. Just in my case, it's always to get busy and feel like I've got agency. And so I actually did take my own medicine. So I was busy,

but I also made myself take time to exercise. My daughter and her children, her family came into lockdown with us. So we were all together, which was really nice. And it has its ups and downs, everyone being under the same roof. And I did some meditation. But being in nature was the big thing. So seeing the spring, being outside. And I used that as my kind of restorative aspect to deal with the heightened response to both being very busy and the fear of the not knowing. Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting for you to share that.

There's a couple of things you said there. One of them is that we've all got our default mode of coping with any big change, which I definitely want to explore with you because you just said you made yourself busy. Many people just chuck themselves in, don't they, to make themselves busy. In some way, that's a form of avoidance, a form of distractions. You don't have to look inwards but the other thing you said which I'd love to explore is that you like having agency do we not all like agency on some level so to go with the busyness I think busyness is an anesthetic so it stops us feeling. When you're busy, you go to your kind of thinking part of the brain and your capacity to really feel and emote kind of lowers so that when you're busy, you're kind of

on all the time. And for change, to process change, we need space so that you can feel because oxytocin is the kind of feeling safe hormone in our bodies that tells us that we're safe. And through that oxytocin, that allows us to feel safe, to think, to reflect, adapt, change and thrive. When we're very busy, we can go at different gears. So I mean, if you're really in trauma and terrified, you're in sort of fourth gear and you don't change at all. You're just on alert, as you know very well, fight or flight or freeze, and you're not able to think. But you can have lots of, there's a spectrum of it. But at a sort of, say, second gear, you feel enough to kind of be able to function, but you don't adapt or process or make sense. And you don't feel very much

because you're distracted the whole time. And so that can make, yeah. Yeah. Distraction, I think is, I think it's something that we all do. I think it's, you know, in some ways, I sort of feel, Julia, that it's never been easier than now to distract ourselves. We've got this real conflict, haven't we, where we've all been put under, you know, pressure in a way that we've possibly never

felt before. Certainly, I know in my lifetime, I've never experienced anything like this. And actually, what we want to do on one level is kind of sit with those feelings, see what's coming up and processing them. Yet the flip side to that is we've got endless ways now to distract ourselves, whether it's Instagram, YouTube, Netflix, books, podcasts, whatever it is, is this something that you think is problematic for society as a whole at the moment? I think it's whether you do it in awareness or out of awareness. So I think scrolling, listening to podcasts, scrolling through Instagram, when you're choosing to do that is a perfectly fine pastime.

I think what I'm talking about is that, yes, you're right. We all do want agency. We do. Some people have more sense of their own agency than others. want to feel that we can affect change in our own life and affect the life that we want to kind of have a goal that we're heading for and that we can make the choices and from informed information to get there but also we don't like discomfort so my kind of big message is that pain is the agent of change and that's through grief when you're grieving someone that has died or a living loss, which a lot of the pandemic has been.

So there's been obviously 45,000 deaths from the pandemic. So that is grief from death. But there's been multiple living losses, loss of structure, loss of jobs, loss of trust in tomorrow is going to be the same as today, loss in health. Many, many aspects of our kind of trust in the world have been turned upside down. And my kind of message is that we can't fight those feelings, you know, because if you squash them, they come out sideways, they come out in a different way. And they tend to come out in our relationships or in our bodies, you know, our mind and our body are completely connected. So that if we give ourselves time and

opportunities to find out what we feel and find ways to reflect and feel it, sort of loss orientation, if you like, then we can have restoration orientation where we watch Netflix, we have fun, we drink, we do the other stuff that's engaging and not such emotional intensity, or it might be emotional intensity if that's what we want, but you allow space for both and one doesn't knock the other out that you hold both side by side and move oscillate between them yeah it's as you say it's the intention behind with which you're doing it right so many of i guess my patients i'm guessing your clients aren't aware that these behaviors are an effort to change their state an effort to not go inwards and you know not to feel

pain not to feel pain but at least and i think your book which frankly is is such a good book um it's it's what what i think is well there's so many incredible things about it, but the way you put so many case studies in, I think it's genius because we all, nobody really likes being told what they could do differently or better. But when you kind of see yourself in other people's stories, that is incredibly powerful. So thank you for writing such a helpful book. incredibly powerful. So thank you for writing such a helpful book. But it is that intention, isn't it? And I think that's what your book gives. One of the key things it gives people is an awareness, an awareness that, oh, I'm acting this way because of my childhood or because of this or because of that. And I sort of really like that because, you know, without awareness, change is very difficult, right?

It is very difficult. And I mean, the thing with the case studies is that I think the most personal is the most universal. So that what we recognize in the stories, and we're all storytellers and story listeners, when we, you know, a lot of people have told me in my book that when they read the story about someone that's nothing to do with them, say in the health section, and there's nothing wrong with them, but they see aspects of themselves, they kind of surprised. And that is, I think, is very powerful. And I think a think a lot of you know the work of therapists isn't about fixing people or making people better in the same way as what you talk about as a doctor in a way yours now your work now as a as a GP isn't prescribing and giving you know diagnosis

and then prescribing it's working out the whole picture of the person and helping them find their own way to manage what's going on in their lives and some of that is what they feel in response to what's coming externally that they have no control of and the other is using information to know themselves so that there's a better alignment between who they find themselves to be that's been influenced by their genetics, by their environment, by their stories, by all those things, and what they can do. I mean, we don't have control over everything to match that with how they live their life. Yeah, as you were sort of saying that, it got me thinking about my life as a doctor. that it got me thinking about my life as a doctor. And it's really interesting. You know,

I went to medical school, I trained to be a medical doctor. And, you know, I tried many different things, you know, working in hospitals, training, doing specialist exams, moving over to general practice. But one thing I've really understood, and I really wasn't taught this, and I think I've shared this story once before on the podcast, but it's, I remember the first week in general practice, I think it was a young lady came in and she basically was really struggling with her mood. basically was really struggling with her moods um you know she was feeling really low really indifferent about things and and like this is I think this is my first week as a GP and I knew it's scary right and I'm a I'm also a lot younger then and so you know I actually sort of feel that you need you need quite a bit of life experience, really. Like in this country, we can go to medical school.

Really, 17, coming up to 18, you could come out. 25. Even 22, you can come out as a junior doctor. And I think I was 22 or 23, I think. It was something like that. And now I think back, what did you know at 23 did you know anything about the world to actually try and give people advice you know it's you must have looked 12 yeah you know it's it's really interesting and I just remember with that with that lady that I thought

well I can see the guidance there I can see the protocol and I think I looked at thinking well I think I'm meant to start her on an SSRI you know which is an antidepressant a very common form that is often prescribed but something in me felt it just doesn't feel right I don't know what's going on so what I did I chatted to her I listened to her without judgment, and I let her talk. And I went overboard, you know, it was probably 20, 30 minutes with her, you know, cues building up outside. And then I said, look, can I see you again tomorrow? Can I have you in appointment tomorrow or the day after? And I would see her regularly that week. Then once a week, she came in just to chat. And you know what? After four weeks, she was like a different person.

And I didn't get it at the time, but on reflection, I thought all I did for her was provide a safe space for her to tell her story without judgment. And I guess in many ways, although I'm not trained to be a therapist, as I'm sitting across, you know, one of the UK's leading psychotherapists, I sort of feel what I was doing was being a therapist to her. You definitely were being a therapist to her and being true to yourself.

And, you know, love is strong medicine. And I think listening, listening to someone fully to what their body and eyes and what they're showing you, what they're telling you, what you kind of sense underneath is unbelievable medicine. And that your capacity to show compassion and empathy and listening enabled her to listen to herself and give herself the compassion that she probably didn't have when she first walked through your door and then she could begin to work out if she was actually depressed or what was going on and you know you know like johan harry talks about a

lot of depression is about disconnection or disconnection from yourself um and so yeah love is strong medicine and that's what you gave her yeah and it's you know sometimes I wish I'd become a therapist you know I can see that because yeah I really do I think I'd want to be a doctor there you go is that is that not the the human condition we all the grass is always greener on the other side it's like oh if I did that then you know. I wanted my daughter to be a doctor and she's a therapist. I thought I was going to make her the doctor I wasn't. And she was not listening. There you go. There you go. Well, we can explore that for sure. I want to just, I just want to go back in time a little bit. So, well,

the two things are popping to my mind the first thing is I think I've heard somewhere before that you used to run a decorating business that is good research right so I'm thinking I've I've only known you through your books and I think both of them are fabulous um and obviously we share the same publisher. And I've, you know, I've been a big fan actually of what you talk about and the work you put out there. But I always think, and I'm certainly biased on my own experience, but I think I have seen this quite a lot,

that the people who I think make the best therapists or the best doctors, I've got this strong hunch that typically have been through stuff themselves. Because you just cannot learn some of the stuff that we do. I don't believe you can. I think you can teach, you can learn principles at, you know, therapy school or medical school. But I'm not convinced now that that is enough to make you good at what you do you have to I feel maybe maybe saying you have to is a little bit a little bit harsh but I feel it's helpful to have gone through your own journey in some way now and I think everybody suffers right I'd very few people I mean i can't think of anyone i know

that hasn't suffered is what they do with the suffering is that's what you're talking about i guess so yeah it's it's uh do you distract from or do you go to it and go okay well i'm gonna learn i'm gonna learn from this because like even on a on a dietary level let's say the doctors who i find now consider food to be medicine and use food with their patients are actually, when you go and talk to them, often they've had their own health concerns or they've had their own revolution

by changing the way they ate and therefore they are passionate about sharing that with the world on social media, but also with their patients. But I'm super interested as what happens between running a decorating business. And I hope you like the decoration in this new studio. Fabulous.

Which is not finished yet, but you're probably too polite to not tell me. I like the guitar in the background. Yeah, the guitar. Do you like the peace plants as well? Yeah, I do. Yeah, okay. Well, we can-

It's a very nice room actually. We could talk about interior decorating afterwards how you would improve this but what happens from being you know running your decorating business it's being one of the country's leading psychotherapists what's what happens there so I think the roots are always earlier so I was one of five children two sets of twins so I've got twin sisters and I'm a twin and the middle sister so there were five children in four years that my children, two sets of twins. So I've got twin sisters and I'm a twin and a middle sister. So there were five children in four years that my mum had. Two sets of twins?

Two sets of twins. This is before you could have clomide or IVF or so. My mum was what my dad called a breeder, very tactfully or very sensitively. And I'm the youngest of five. So I think there were lots of things that influenced me, like all of us, you know, we're all walking wounded in some way for in this business, I think. One of which was being the youngest and smallest of a kind of big family, I learned to listen and I learned to observe. And that's what taught me a lot. So I didn't speak that much when I was a child. I spoke a bit at school. And also I worked hard.

It was the thing that gave me a feeling of control. So I have always worked hard, that kind of feeling of, I always did my prep, I was always on time. And that, I think, gave me a sense of stability and order in a house that was a very old-fashioned way of being brought up. But it was often there was so much that was going under the waterline that I was chaotic and uncertain and unpredictable that I couldn't understand. So I kind of gave myself these disciplines of always working and kind of being good, if you like. But also my parents, both of them had had very significant losses,

deaths before they married. So my mum, by the time she was 25, her mother, her father, her sister, and her brother had all died. And my dad, his father, and his brother. So there were, you know, their most closest family members were all dead, and there were just these black and white photographs around the house of people who I vaguely knew were relations. I didn't know they were my grandparents or my aunts and uncles. vaguely knew were relations. I didn't know they were my grandparents or my aunts and uncles. But what I learned from that, kind of when I thought about it afterwards, is that they kind of believe that what you don't talk about doesn't hurt you,

that get on and move forward. You know that grieving isn't something that you do. It's something you get over and you don't remember and talk about the person, but you just forget and go forward. And I think that shaped me to do the reverse, basically. Not in a bad way. My parents were very much a part of that generation and they had to survive. You know, post-war generation, that's the only mechanism they had. And they had no knowledge of talking treatments or grieving or so i think they did a really good job yeah but luckily we

know a lot more now it's fascinating that for two things for two things really come up in me when i when i hear that one is we don't really talk about our feelings. And that strikes me as something that, I guess, the British, we've been very proud of in the past, we've got a stiff upper lip, which I'm not convinced anymore is such a good thing. Let me put it more bluntly, I think it's incredibly problematic on some levels. I don't know if you would necessarily agree with that. But the other theme from that is that that's what they had to do. It was the post-war generation. to the times in which we live now where, you know, I'm not saying this is the same as a war in any way, but certainly a unifying, stressful experience that, yeah,

that we're collectively going through. I wonder if people in 20 years' time will get, oh, that was the post-covid generation that's why they did these things so the um stiff upper lip the thing I think very strongly about that is that we need to be in touch with ourselves and be aware of what's going on in us and those that are mentally thrive and do well find a way of expressing it. So they do find a way of talking about their feelings. The thing that I think really matters is that you choose who you speak them to. So that you talk to people who you trust, who will listen to you, will respect what you're saying.

And I don't really believe in sort of promiscuous honesty, like pouring out your feelings to anybody, anywhere, on social media, all over the place. Because I think that feeds the whole, to make the whole bigger, rather than the kind of trust and connection and value that you get of being properly listened to and attended to. Now that has got my ears pricking up. Okay, so let's just unpick that a little bit. So what you're talking about really is vulnerability and who can you be vulnerable with? And you're saying- And honest. And honest.

You're saying let's be picky and choosy with that. Let's open up in the right place. Okay, so you're saying let's be picky and choosy with that. Let's open up in the right place. Okay, so you're saying you don't necessarily think it's helpful to people to do that all the time everywhere. So if somebody is, let's say, doing that on social media, they feel, okay, this is a platform where I can connect and communicate with a lot of different people. this is a platform where I can connect and communicate with a lot of different people. So maybe I will share my innermost thoughts and sort of feelings on my social media grid. Would you say that there is some, you know, some unpicked emotions there that means that they feel that they want to and have to do that on such

a large platform potentially. And the reason I'm asking, what's interesting for me is that I've noticed over the last year or so on this podcast, I'm opening up a lot more, not with everyone, with the guests. I guess the guests who are authentic with me, I respond back to them. And I feel that can be incredibly powerful, but I'd love you to help me unpick when is it appropriate in your eyes and when is it not? it not. Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show. Now, if you're looking for something at this time of year to kickstart your health, I'd highly recommend that you consider AG1. AG1 has been in my own life for over five years now. It's a science-driven daily health drink with over 70 essential nutrients to support your overall health.

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for keeping in your backpack, office, or car. If you want to take advantage of this limited time offer, all you have to do is go to drinkag1.com forward slash live more. That's drinkag1.com forward slash live more. I don't think I have all the answers. So I think we learn a lot about ourselves from other people. You know, Brené Brown, the power of vulnerability. I mean, she is my hero and that we definitely need to do that.

And that you doing it in conversation with someone that you kind of respect and trust, that is going to be listened to by hundreds of thousands of people, is very different to just splurging without really consciously thinking about it, that you're going through a crisis and you kind of pour it out on social media. And I think one of the things I've been thinking about a lot that I wrote quite a bit about in the book is about identity. And for identity, we have two, for 21st century, slightly conflicting evolutionary needs. We need to be unique and stand out in order to attract attention and from a biologically sort of evolutionary perspective to get a mate. And we also need to connect and to belong, to be part of a tribe. And social media is the place where people often go out to stand out and be unique.

out and be unique. And some people create platforms that are very safe because they have followers that really align with who they are as a person. So it becomes a very safe place. I should think your platform is like that. My platform is like that. I don't tend to get lots of critical comments because people who are drawn to it are kind of like-minded. So when I say something personal about myself, it is because I want to say something that I think is of value and it connects with them. What I think is the kind of wild west is when it's not done, when you throw your most vulnerable self out there into a medium where you don't know what the reaction is going to

be and that you can get really hurt and then you can keep feeding it wanting to get back what you lost in the first time and then you get into that negative cycle and i also think it's very different for an old bag like me doing it to a young person who doesn't fully know themselves, who isn't necessarily protected. Yeah. And I'm sort of going on a bit. But the other thing I think about with feelings and emotion and mental health is I would like to draw a, not a line because it isn't so straightforward as that. between feeling sad, angry, furious, being in pain, and having a diagnosable medical condition of, you know, bipolar, anxiety disorder, all the kind of disorders. And I think often people now pathologize what is an ordinary human necessary, information giving feeling and make it an objective diagnosis that they need some fix for yeah and i know that's an extension of what you

were saying but i think it's the same thing but it is i love i love what you said there and i think it's a it's really it's it's a really helpful way of looking at it and i guess it goes back to can i interrupt you you can of course and it's a really helpful way of looking at it. And I guess it goes back to- Can I interrupt you? You can, of course. And it's exactly what you didn't do when your first patient, when you were 22 or 23, walked into the room.

So she came in saying, I'm depressed. I think I have depression. And you didn't go straight for that. You listened to her. And then she found out for herself what was actually beneath that diagnosis that she'd given herself and then she found a lot of probably uncomfortable feelings that she found a way of expressing and then in some ways by expressing them she was released from them she learned things she maybe had to make changes and that is the difference yeah if that makes sense absolutely

absolutely um you mentioned you know you mentioned the evolutionary sort of challenge the conflict between the need to stand out but also the need to belong and i found that super fascinating because the the new book is about change, right? I was thinking about this on a walk this morning. I thought, okay, Julia's coming today. And you went for a walk yourself to follow your own rules. Oh, yeah. I went for a walk to help me sort of process my thoughts a little bit. But this sort of evil issue conflicts, and it made me think about change.

And I thought, okay, humans, we love security. We love stability stability we love certainty yet you beautifully make the case that change is like that is probably one of the only certainties in life is that things are going to change and that we're going to die and that we're going to die which is there's a you know which we can, you know, for me, that the first book being on grief, the second book on change, actually they're natural extensions of each other because for many people like me, my journey to change really started with my dad dying. So grief was what really, really sort of forced me to stop. I go, wait a minute. Let me look at my life a little

bit. Let me look at what I'm doing. Is it where I want it to be? Whose life am I really leading here? So actually, I think there's a beautiful through line through these books. But how do you sort of explain that conflicts between where we crave security and stability yet change is a certainty so of course we're not going to be good at embracing change right i mean i i think that's really interesting way of saying it too i like the way you've kind of made sense of it for yourself about change and And we like certainty. And also we get excited. We get bored. So we kind of put our head above the parapet. And in a way, the space that I call that is the fertile void.

So when your dad died, you were suffering. So pain was your agent of change, wasn't it? You had to allow yourself to feel the pain, to face this new reality that you didn't want to be true, that your dad had died. But also it freed you then to look at who am I really? Am I living the life? Maybe, I don't know, I'm making this up, that he wanted you to live. Is this a space now where I can kind of choose for myself what I believe and who I am and how I'm going to go forward? Because change is that nodal point. But there is a process of change, which is longer than anybody kind of wants or wishes, because change takes time,

because change takes time and we need to give it time. So when you talk about safety and change, you know, change, we choose change as well. Change that we don't like is change that's imposed on us. So we choose change like getting married. We choose change like having a child. We choose change like moving house or having a job, getting divorced. Those, I mean, no one chooses divorce, but I mean, in some ways you do choose it, don't you?

It's a decision in the end. But where am I going? Even the changes that you want are uncomfortable because it forces you to adapt to this new version of yourself in this new way of living. to this new version of yourself in this new way of living. And I think what I'm saying in my book is the more we accommodate that discomfort and allow it and give it space and support ourselves through it, then the change happens and we adapt and thrive and grow. And that when we block it, we adapt and thrive and grow. And that when we block it, we get a limited, more and more limited life. And you know, those people who you kind of, if you tap them, you kind of feel that they're brittle and they have very fixed views, very fixed way of being that this is right and that's wrong. And this is who I am. Whereas the people you feel like you want to connect to and engage with are people who are kind of more open, more open to what they feel, more open to uncertainty,

more open to what you're saying and to flexibility. I think flexibility and adaptability are real life skill that we need to give ourselves permission to have rather than think that control, I think there's a false belief about control, that control means that we're safe. And it doesn't. It can do, but it doesn't always, as the pandemic has shown. You said it's a process to change. And as you were explaining that, you said it's a process to change. And as you were explaining that, I was thinking, at what point are we okay with change? Is it when we've got acceptance? Like is accepting that life is going to change one of the most important skills or is acceptance part of the process of

change? Is it like step three, step four three step four step i don't know i think where does acceptance come in can you accept something right at the start or do you only get to acceptance having worked through change it's a really good question i think i i wonder about acceptance do we ever accept things that we really don't want to happen, you know, like grieving. So I think it's more accommodation that you can't fight it. So it's kind of letting yourself know that this isn't a fight that you're going to win, that you can't will your way out of this. You can't busyness your way out of this. You can't distract your way out of this. So the acceptance is the permission to kind of go with what happens within you and that that will influence the choices is the permission to kind of go with what happens within you

and that that will influence the choices and the behavior that you then take. I think the final step of a kind of meaningful transition is when you kind of don't think about it anymore. It's like you find yourself, you know, just doing it. So when you first did the podcast, it was like, oh, you know, there's a mic and I'm going to be this type of person. And through the process of learning, through the experience, through making mistakes, by looking at your mistakes, by feeling cross, by being frustrated, by feeling proud, by having success, you adapt and change. And now you just wake up and I'm doing

a podcast and it's the most ordinary thing in the world. So that's a simple way of change. But it's true, I think, in every aspect of our life. It doesn't mean that we don't carry the wounds of that change with us. I mean, I think all of us carry a kind of backpack of complex changes that have been imposed on us or memories or experiences of enforced change that will, of course, influence our attitude and behavior to the next change that happens. So a new loss will always bring back a previous loss. previous loss. So in lockdown, people have felt higher levels of anxiety than they may normally have done because of the pandemic, but also it will have put them in touch with earlier experiences. So people who've had traumatic experiences are likely to have more mental problems now and difficulty and complexity because that will have ignited that even if they've done all the EMDR and the processing

because your body remembers your body holds the score so it's not like you can put it to bed and it's a clean tidy cupboard you know people often want to kind of Marie Kondo their feelings don't they kind of have my blues and my pinks and chuck out the rubbish. And I'm never going to look at that again. And we're human beings. So we, the shadows of the stuff that's happened to us stay with us. And sometimes they come and hit us in the face when we least expect it. And it doesn't mean we haven't done it or we're not doing it right or that we've done it wrong.

It's just that we're wired for bias, for danger. And that's just that one coming back to tell you you're here again. It's like, oh. I mean, that is the cold, harsh truth, isn't it? You think you've processed something. You think you've moved on. I am good with that now. You know, I've sort of left that behind.

So then, boom, a new life situation. And it's like, situation and it's it's like ah you know it's a little reminder there isn't there but you never step in the same river twice so you're changing all the time so you a lot of people have this kind of trajectory of life and I talk about this quite a lot in the book about you know you have you start at the beginning you go up this hill you know and you have this image of your life where you get there and you've arrived. And I think social media and lots of aspects of life kind of say that, you know, the five ways you're going to live your best life and the five ways that you're going to have, you're going to kick ass in your business. So all those things that once you've got the five things,

then you're sorted. And then I'm like winning and winning at life. All the kind of black and white pictures of life. In my mind, I mean, if someone couldn't show me that it really is true, then I will be willing to listen. But life tends to be a kind of moving up and down process and you have moments of enormous joy and moments of absolute despair. And the skill, if you like, in the thing that makes a difference between someone who survives and thrives is the love and connection to others and their ability to move with it and go with it. You know, that idea of closure that you're talking about, you know, that's done it isn't a thing it doesn't exist it does if you're if it's a you know building a house you can finish building a house

or a recording studio um that is a finished product human beings ever changing processes yeah feelings that you know that's what makes us human rights but at the same time it leads to the roller coaster of being a human being but but i really think that there is a societal pressure i think that i mean maybe it's reflective of culture now that everything's sort of soundbite and moving and it's fast and the way that you are it's like that image like i'm going to be in the driving seat of my life and you do want to be in the driving seat of your life but don't think it's a ferrari that doesn't need a mechanic you know where you know biologically as a as a doctor we need mot's don't can't you know we need stuff to support us to help us keep going it doesn't just happen.

It's interesting that I thought I hadn't really had until we're having this conversation is when you think about change, change can mean so many different things, right? So the nervous system, our stress response system, it thrives on change because actually it's when something is different, when it's at a heightened level, so a stressor, that's when our bodies respond and go, oh, now I need to be able to effectively deal with this level of stress. So if given an appropriate time to sort of reset and rest and recuperate, it grows back stronger to better deal with that. You know, people get that in terms of a muscle, you know, I work my bicep in the gym

and then I don't go for two days, I come back, my bicep is a bit bigger and a bit stronger. We get that with like the physical realm of our health, but I don't think we we quite think about in the same way with other aspects of our health so so change is actually wired into you know evolution we as human beings we are wired to change i mean we wouldn't be who we are unless we were adaptive right yeah and i sort of think as a i know you're a grandmother um which is you know fantastic what's it like being a grandma it's completely wonderful it's like the gifts of having children without the load of looking after them all the time wow it's the most i think it's the biggest gift your children can give you yeah i'm reading a um a daniel lieberman book at the moment has just come out i think it's called exercised and all sized no exercise i think that's an exercise it's about movement okay um there's

there's this bit on grandmas and actually um the pleasure of bringing a grandmother but also what's wired into us as humans and that grandmothers were also used to be very, very active. They would be out, I think in some of his research is showing that they'd be out sort of, you know, gathering food and walking maybe for six hours a day to take the load off the daughter who might be tending to the young children it was just really it's a really interesting idea i thought wow you know how far removed have we become from our evolutionary heritage so you know you should read it it's super interesting yeah and you know family systems i think is incredibly interesting i talk about that a bit in the book about transgenerational family beliefs,

values, systems, trauma, behaviors, responses. So in my case, I worked actively not to replicate the patterns I saw in my parents because I wanted it to be, I wanted to be different. And I had the opportunity because the therapy was around in a way it wasn't for them. But I could easily have just repeated it. And what people talk about, you know, generational trauma and the positives, but in particular trauma is until the generation is prepared to feel the pain, the transmission of the trauma carries on down. And I think that's incredibly interesting for so many families now so the trauma gets passed down sort of epigenetically absolutely and

behaviorally yeah and and then sort of a lot of spiritual teachers uh talking about this being the generation where we now go and actually heal our ancestral trauma, you know, which I find super interesting. It is, and important. I don't, I mean, it's a, I think that's a really important new understanding. Yeah, that we, that we, you know, it's interesting. I know on the way up, you listened to my chat with Gabor Mate and I think on my first conversation with him, or maybe when I've heard him speak live before, he's spoken about that I think when he was, I think he was born in Poland. I could be wrong on that, but he was born in Eastern Europe, maybe it's Hungary actually. I can't remember, But wherever Gabel was born, I think he said at

the time, it was all kinds of pressures and stresses. The Nazis were occupying where he was born. And he's spoken about the trauma he feels he absorbed from his mum at that time, which in many ways has played out in his life and he sort of totally influenced what he does and who he is now absolutely and in many ways you think well he's a he's someone who's helping hundreds of thousands of millions of people around the world and I guess in some ways he possibly wouldn't be doing that without the trauma that he experienced and it's you know that's fascinating in itself. Is that trauma? Yes, it's affected him, but he's managed to use it to now help so many other

people. But I think transgenerational trauma, I think is something that people often aren't thinking about. And so, you know, I wonder if you could share some of your thoughts on that for people listening. Well, first about the transgenerational trauma and Gabor Mate is that there's a lot of research, and I know you've talked about it on other podcasts, about post-traumatic growth. And it's not about transforming the suffering into a positive, like you can kind of flick a switch and you make it better. But what it talks about is that you need to acknowledge the level of the loss and the suffering and give it its place in you,

that it influences you and shapes you and your body remembers it. It's part of you and it will always be part of you. And it also is a kind of intense change because trauma is a kind of intense change because trauma is a kind of wound that cuts through everything through you. That can change your whole view of yourself and the world andess disaster, say that how they viewed the world felt like growth after a member of that, you know, a partner had died in the Martianess disaster because what they recognized was that love and connection

is what matters most at the end of the day. And it meant that their whole perspective of who they were and how they lived their lives was reshaped in a way that felt much more meaningful and where they felt they belonged. And Gabor Maté has done that with Nobson, hasn't he? Yeah. But with your question about transgenerational trauma is, I think one of the interesting ways to look at it for people who are listening is that you

can buy these books to do a family tree, genograms. And so you fill in as many of the people who they were, and you can fill in what you know about them. And through that, you can see patterns of behavior of divorce, of addiction, of suicide. And, you know, what people talk about often, it's the secrets that kill us. You may, if you talk, you know, I really recommend young people, people my age to talk to people in their family from a different generation and learn the stories and the secrets that haven't been told, because that will release them and free them to understand so much of why, say, their parent behaved a particular way and how that has influenced them. And once you have a real understanding of where you've come from, it gives you the roots and the strength

to kind of know better where you want to go. And there's research that shows that people who have all the stories from their past, they know where their grandparents were born, they know all that content, have much more higher self-esteem and confidence. That is so fascinating because of course it makes sense once you understand exactly where you've come from it just it probably helps just fill in those blanks it helps you ground and understand who you are where you fit in. I mean with you do you know the story I don't know the stories of your parents yeah it's interesting that julie because i think i'm i'm like so dad died seven years ago dad's life you know very much you know indian

immigrants uh comes over in 1962 to the uk when uk are from from india when actively recruiting doctors from overseas to come and help fill the gaps here. And so dad comes over with nothing and, you know, works his way up, puts up with all kinds of racism and prejudice, but comes here with a desire to build a better life for him and his family. So working hard for us, sending money home for his family, frankly, working like crazy for those years, which I'm convinced killed him and caused him to get lupus at 57 um but what's interesting is that I didn't really see that was you know when he was around you know it was great but I didn't see dad much growing up he was working he was a

full-time consultant at Manchester Royal Infirmary he worked four nights a week as well for an encore service so dad only slept three nights a week for 30 years oh my god yeah i mean what does that do to your what does that do to you system exactly and then there's no one will convince me that that wasn't a huge factor into why he got lupus um and that then you know really system it's all system but but but dad getting ill and why it's, I guess, a little bit, in some ways still feels raw, is that it changed 15 years of our family life completely changed. I mean, that transfer, okay, I've not thought about it in this context. That was change, right? That was... Seismic change.

That was seismic change. But it's's so interesting i knew i was chatting to you i know i'm thinking about change i was thinking about all things in my life but i didn't think of that that was you know it's like things sit there right in front of your nose but you don't see it until the obvious is obviously pointed out to you but and grief starts at the point of diagnosis so the moment your dad had the diagnosis of lupus, your whole family grieved the dad that you had and had to adjust and change to this new dad who had this life-changing diagnosis and what that did to all of you. So all of you is what I'd call a living loss, but it's grief. It has all the experiences of grief, emotions of grief.

So I felt a tingle as you said that, because I have never thought about it like that before. For me, I perceived the grief as the day dad died. And I was going to explore with you something I've heard you say before, which is the relationship continues even though the person has died. And we'll come to that, but I just wanted to just expand on what you said there. That's really interesting because at that time in my life, I had left home two years previously to go to Edinburgh to be a medical student. So, you know, you're away 250 miles away from home with all the freedom that you could possibly dream of all once you're away, you know, there's all kinds of temptations and all sorts of things, you know, so you're there living your life, you know, I don't think dad had ever been

ill before. And then suddenly, like two and a half years in, where I was doing my immunology degree, you know, dad got ill and no one quite knew what it was for three months. He was in hospital. Loads of different specialists came around to try and, you know, why has he got this fever? No one could figure it out.

And then one night I got a call. I was anywhere maybe about half 10. And, you know, i've not thought about this for years actually but the call was from my mum who was in intensive care saying look you need to come home now yeah dad's like they're not sure he's going to make the night make make it through the night and i was like it was like even thinking about it now it was like it didn't feel real and my my my buddy steve who i live with at the time just so you know just put me in his car and he drove me back four hours back to the hospital but that was the start of that i don't actually remember life before my dad got ill because

it defined my whole adult life i literally it's the reason i ended up leaving anywhere moving back to the northwest it's why i live here now. So I'm five minutes away from where mum is. I came back to help look after my dad, which I did for 15 years. And I think I really struggled with his death because, well, I say because everyone's got their own experience with grief. And my experience was that I would see my dad every day, two to three times a day, seven days a week. I would, you know, towards the end, I would shave him, shower him, you know, all sorts of. So suddenly when that- It was your job.

It was my job as well as trying to be a caring husband and a GP. And so there was just this massive hole in my life when my dad died and and and purpose and meaning yeah everything like and your love of your dad but since I was 20 till something like 35 I don't remember my phone ever going off like I don't remember ever switching off I was always on alert on alert when's the phone gonna ring oh is mom gonna phone dad's falling can you come around and pick him up so it's really interesting now to have seven years where I feel now my shoulders drop and I can actually live my life right but you asked the question didn't you right at the start you said what is um what is your story? So,

what is the story of your parents and their upbringing? And I think it was funny. It was only when dad got ill, in the last two, three years of dad's life, when he really couldn't do much, I got to learn more about him. I got to learn stuff. I got to hear stories. And now, man, I wish he he was here there's so much I want to recorded it yeah you know I I wish that I could ask him more particularly now as I progress as a father and as my kids get older I think oh dad you know when you know when I was 10 like my son is now what was it you know what were you thinking you know those little things I'd love to be able to, but I've learned from that. And I'm actually doing that with my mum. I was going to say, you must do it with your mum.

Yes, it was really interesting that I'm now learning a lot. Like, it's funny, as my last few years... Are you taping it? I'm not. Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness.

It is called The Thrive Tour, Be the Architect of Your Health and Happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health and together we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life, and I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last. Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour. I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now, journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years.

It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision-making, and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn new behaviours into long-term habits, and improve our relationships. There are, of course, many different ways to journal, and as with most things, it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three-question journal.

In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them and how much more in control of their lives they now feel. Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to buy a journal,

that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three-question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast. But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app. but it's really interesting as you learn more about your parents you learn more about yourself of course right of course so and now you must learn about your grandparents too yeah well what were their beliefs what did they know, all those questions like, what did your grandparents believe about religion, about sex, about money, about work, about family, about love, about duty, about all of the things that influence us.

It's really worth knowing as far back as you can. And did their behavior match what they believe? What are the secrets, obviously, I've said. What if you can't? So have you had any clients who were orphans or who were adopted? And do you see a common theme playing out in some of these clients because they don't have those stories? Yes, I have. some of these clients because they don't have those stories yes i have and the work that we do

is to grieve the loss of what they wish they knew that they you know they get to a limit so particularly say with adopted parents they may not be able to get more information or the adopt the adopting parent won't want to see them refuses refuses to see them. So there's a sort of double rejection. And then that's a lot of work about grieving what you don't know and what you can never find out and all the what-ifs and the kind of dreams that you imagined and what you wished for and you have to face that that's at an end, that you have to stop dreaming. Because a lot of people don't stop dreaming and hoping and

and then kind of stay stuck in this in a sort of limbo yeah and so you have to do the work would you say all of its work isn't it it is work it is psychological work i i think when you get into this work i genuinely feel it's the most rewarding work there is because you're discovering who you are like who you really are like as you said before your identity not which is multiple which is so many different identities that we all have well that's interesting so a lot of us are looking for the identity that is true the authentic ours are you sort of suggesting that that is a a false ambition because actually that doesn't exist i see myself as multiple identities and that i shift and change um kind of what's important depending which identity i'm kind of what's important depending which identity I'm kind of most in at the time.

So there are fixed identities. So I'm, you know, I'm white. I was brought up as C of E. And those, I mean, I can change my religion, but there are sort of fixed identities that you're born with that are genetic. Most other identities, and particularly in the 21st century are more fluid than they've ever been on a kind of gender perspective how you have relationships perspective there are so many choices and ways that we can kind of go on that on that spectrum but for me I have a work identity. I have a parent identity, a grandparent identity, a partner identity. I have, with me, it's like relationships, my belief-being, it works when those identities kind of sit comfortably together. So say I was a young man who came from a family who thought homosexuality was wrong. was wrong. But being a part of a family is very important, like belonging in the family, respecting the family, seeing the family. So then there's a clash between who you find yourself to be from a sexual identity and the family that is a very important one. And so that takes a lot of

working out. But if you don't recognize all those different identities then you just get stuck you don't know you know something's really wrong but you can't always work out what it is and then going back to what you said earlier which really sparked really got my attention which is you're effectively saying that you can't escape your feelings like you can pretend that you're not, you know, you can pretend they're not happening, but they will manifest in some way. They will, they'll get lodged in your body. They will cause you to have a row with your partner

or snap at your kids. You can't, you can't escape them. They're going to be there. So, you know, and I think that is such a key take home for all of us, right? And also to think that is such a key take home for all the first white. And also to remember that you can't put logic through an emotional system. So that people say, you know, I'm so, people have what I call their shitty committee. I'm an idiot.

I shouldn't be feeling like this. It's ridiculous. I'm making too much fuss, you know, or, and it could be feeling like this. It's ridiculous. I'm making too much fuss. And it could be against somebody else. The same kind of tirade of fury. But 80% of our decision-making comes from our feelings and our previous experience and what we've learned. So to think that your kind of cognitive brain is logically kind of in that Descartesian way kind of informing you and telling you what to do and it's logic it's just not true so that I mean I think particularly in relationships and relationship to ourself which is one of our key relationships but that

influences the most important thing is which is our relationship with other people, you cannot put logic through it. Yeah. That is well worth people sitting with, myself included. You can't always logic it. I mean, do you think men and women process this stuff differently in your experience? Of course, that's a gross generalisation. But by and large, are there sort of some different ways in which they tend to respond to these things? I mean, in my experience, yes, with the clients and couples that I work with, I see real tendencies. What are those tendencies?

So, I mean, with loss, for instance, which is the one I most commonly work with, which could be living losses or loss from death, is women tend to be loss-oriented. So women tend to want to emote. Women tend to have a Sherlock Holmes kind of desperate to know exactly what happened, to unpick every piece of the story, every piece of the jigsaw, to want to remember, to have memory box, to talk about it, to go over it. Men tend to be restoration-oriented. They tend to want to get on, to move forward, to keep going, to survive. And often men, kind of with me, they rub their legs like they want to run, you know, they physically.

And I think there is an evolutionary aspect of it, of, you know, women staying home. And I mean, I'm not talking about the 21st century women, but from our evolutionary drives. And so when I work with couples, I talk about they can help each other do the other so that she can help him do some of the loss work and find a way of talking about how he feels. And he can help her do some of the loss work and find a way of talking about how he feels. And he can help her do some of the restorative work. It's like having hope for a future, looking what they're going to do next, having a break from the grief watching Netflix. And often the way to do that best is walking and talking. So as couples, I think walking and talking is your best therapy. There's a synchronicity.

Yeah. And it's the flow. So we've talked about, what we talk about, what we've talked about a lot is how you can't fight your feelings. And that when you let them, when you focus on them, and that you let them inform you about what's going on, you find words for it. So you find a way to describe it. And then that gives you information. And then you kind of release because you're not so stuck with them. If you're doing that in movement that is aligned with the person that you care about most, that is in nature, is a kind of added benefit, not on a busy high street. You kind of look at the floor, you can have space or the ground rather, you space and movement that you you're not eyeballing each other so like how are you feeling you know i mean

if i ask my husband how are you feeling here it just you know just will not answer probably thinking is this is this like a therapy how am i feeling but i think it is one of the most annoying questions of all time because you know that the minute someone says to me, how are you feeling? They're basically saying, you're in a bad mood or what's wrong? Why are you being out of sorts? Why are you being a pain in the neck is basically what people are saying. I mean, not always. I know, but yeah.

Whereas if you, so in our family, with my kids, my adult kids and my husband, always when there's a problem, we go for a walk. So when someone says to me, can we go for a walk? Sometimes I slightly dread it because there's something that they need to talk to me about that is about me doing something that is really upset them, which I don't want to hear. But it is the best way to do it it but not only is it great to share that as a really practical tool for people it's free right it's free right so for people listening I guess if all they take from everything we discussed so far if you're having problems or you have something you want to get off your chest go for a walk with someone whilst you do it well i think that's a pretty pretty good takeaway and then give yourself a treat afterwards like in the past it would be go to a pizza or go to the pub or go and have a cup of tea so that you do

the walk and talk and then you do something that is kind of restore it feels like a treat yeah and then and don't don't pick it up again you know kind of let it be. Like you've had the walk and talk, have your cup of tea or your meal or pint or whatever it is, and then go home and have a bit of peace. I like that one about don't pick it up again, right? I think that's worth reiterating. So you go for a walk, without eye contact, you process whatever you want to process

eye contact but you know basically you're yeah and you can have hugs and that whole it's not all like eye to eye sort of with the intensity why is it so important that once you finish you a sort of it sounds like you ritualize it in some way where there's something like a cup of tea at the end and why not pick it up after the boundary of that this has a a kind of a life of its own that's protected yeah that is sort of in some ways sacrosanct between the two of you if it's a couple or you and your child that this is the place and the way that you talk about difficult things and then you hold the boundary of it you keep that space as a safe place that is where you do that and then you step out of it and you have normal interaction and give yourselves a treat and kind of celebrate it i really like that that, Julia. I really, really like it. I think,

you know, I always love when we can simplify things to help people. And I think there's a beautiful simplicity there about going for a walk with someone else, have a ritual at the end, which closes off and then don't go and revisit that. There's like sort of three steps to that, that I'm hearing. But I think it's very hard for many of us to apply all three I think certainly for me I suspect the tendency would be after the cup of tea so yeah oh yeah you know we didn't quite finish uh journal it exactly I was gonna I was gonna move on what for people who who feel the need you would say write it down and why is that well? And log in.

Well, like writing it down. I mean, journaling is shown to be as effective as talking treatments. Because when you put it down, from being invisible and kind of stuck in you, it's something that you can see and it's on the page. And you release it by doing that. But also when you go for another walk and talk, it's there that you can see and it's on the page and you release it by doing that but also when you go for another walk and talk it's there yeah i i i'm a massive massive fan of journaling both for my patients but also for me personally and again i i just think it is such like like free yeah it takes five minutes yeah i mean like many of the best tools that are out there,

and I know I say this quite a bit, but I really feel strongly about this, that there is this perception that well-being and wellness is the preserve of a certain class and a certain income level. And I'm not at all pretending that there aren't socioeconomic determinants of health. I absolutely recognise that. But I'm very passionate also that having worked in a lot of areas which would be considered deprived, these tools, walking, journaling, they actually are...

Exercise. Exercise. They are accessible. They are very cheap, if not completely free. And, you know, I would get, I'm sure you would agree with this, but I would challenge anyone who struggles with feelings or thoughts, if they just for one week, for five minutes a day, write down those thoughts on a piece of paper, just watch what happens and observe. Would you sort of concur?

I completely agree. And what I haven't told you is that I had a suicidal client about eight months ago who came to me, I mean, in a very, very bad way. And I gave her your book. And I gave her the five things, three five minute things to do because she was she could barely function she really wanted to be dead and she told me how she was going to kill herself but those the connection the um movement and um what's the third one it's mind body and heart so heart is connection body is some sort of movement and mind is some form of mental health practice so journaling breathing yeah she did those and i really think it contributed to saving her life

yeah i mean i mean thank you for sharing. It is lovely to hear that. So why I said it is because that was five minutes like you talk about. It isn't. And that was for a massive, complex, difficult, suicidal problem. And yet it worked. suicidal problem and yet it worked and i've i've often said about the ideas in field fashion five that there is a deceptive simplicity to them i think it's very easy to think what could five minutes do but um yeah i mean i'm really i'm pleased that it was a value um for someone save one life you save the world right yeah i mean certainly the way i think we both like to

look at things you know how you do one thing is how you do everything um but but sort of to reiterate to people if you're struggling try it you know it can make a difference um big time what what other sort of routines and rituals do you recommend for people i think something that is unrecognized is altruism is being kind to others helps our immune system and again it doesn't have to be in a huge way so i mean the sort of in my book i have eight pillars of strength which you would say is way too complicated in some ways it is very complicated not at all i i love that actually i was i was reading about an hour before you got here that section at the back it's really great actually really good um but what i sort of talk about then is that through

the process of change you need to establish ways of being habits and attitudes to yourself that support you and that pillars like in your book for the four pillars pillars are like a kind of structure that holds you together when you feel like you're breaking apart and that you have to consciously choose to do them so one of the pillars is your relationship with yourself like being self-compassionate and being aware of that shitty committee that attacks you and the other one is relationship to others and often when we're in the process of change, we show others, we go to our default mode of coping, which can be to be angry. I mean,

I think it's really bad wiring of nature that when we suffer and when we're in pain, we become the version of ourselves that we don't like and nobody else likes. Because you're tricky, you're short-tempered you are jealous you feel furious you're thin-skinned everything upsets you for good reason but it means you don't get the compassion that love the connection that if you're happy, everyone wants to see you. They love you. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so one of the, talking about habits to answer your question, sorry, I kind of went off, is that we need to kind of being aware of that we're feeling difficult, we're angry, we wake up in a really bad mood,

we want to hit out on people, hit out at people, not on people. You may actually want to hit on people too, because people use sex as a way of feeling better. But anyhow, whatever is going on, it's sort of discombobulated. It's in turmoil. You don't like yourself. You're dreading the day that you're having. The kind of the first piece is to kind of acknowledge that that is normal, given that you're going through a very difficult time. Like when you're going through a difficult time, I am not going to be this best version of myself. I'm not going to be the version that I'm proud of and that people move towards. So kind of acknowledge it and give yourself that self-compassion.

Yeah. And then kind of think about what actually, given that I'm really kind of distressed and upset, what is going to work for me? And I, you know, very much like you, the first thing I tell all clients to do is to take exercise. Like get your heart rate going. It reduces the cortisol levels.

It raises the oxytocin levels. It stops you feeling so anxious. And you have then a clearer mind to kind of face your day. And it can be five minutes. It can be 10 minutes, whatever it is, just get your heart rate up. I always think it's better to go outside, but if you don't want to go outside. And then I, I, the sort of, the big thing is that, is to connect to people that, that you love and that care about you. And, you know, love is strong medicine, as I've said, but also love is not a soft skill. Love is tough. It's tough to live. It's tough to do. And when you're suffering, you often hate the people you're closest to. And they often hate you. I mean, hate is a simplistic word, but they're often the hardest people to be close to. Yeah. I mean, so much to think about there. Jill, I'm conscious we've been chatting for a while,

but I sort of really wanted to ask you a couple of questions on grief. And this is partially because I know in my own network, but also as a doctor and seeing what's happened over the last few months, a lot of people are contending with grief at the moment, whether, you know, I've never really heard this phrase of a living loss, which you sort of, which you say, which really, I think it's very powerful to think about that as a living loss. You know, I think the lockdown, COVID for many people has literally, we're mourning, aren't we, the lives that we used to lead.

But for people who have lost people... Well, they've died. I don't really like the term lost. Okay. So, okay. Maybe, could you expand on that? Well, we lose things every day. The thing about death is that it's permanent and irreversible.

So I think we use metaphors sometimes to soften the kind of brutality or the difficulty of death but when we actually name it as death there's no misunderstanding and i think that is helpful yeah i i love that and i thank you very much for for pointing that out because that touches on a theme that i really wanted to ask you about, which is what I just did there without thinking about it was a way to soften it, right? And if we have a friend or a colleague or someone we care about who is going through grief, who is, who, I was going to say lost again, who someone close to them has died, often we feel uncomfortable ourselves. So we don't know what to say. So we sort of lighten it.

And often I think we do it to make ourselves feel better. So I want, I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on that, but also I just want to throw in as well. And this is something I've been thinking a lot over the last few years is, do we have an issue in this sort of the society in which I live which is western society in the UK and secular and secular we don't really talk about death and I think a lot of indigenous cultures death is very much embraced as a part of life. There's ritual. It's not like, I remember when my dad died, my son was only two and a half, maybe nearly three. I didn't know what to say. I was at a loss. I don't think I had a good vocabulary around that. I don't think we do in this Western society, frankly, at all. But I said, oh, you know, dadu, which is what we call, certainly in Bengali culture in

India, we call granddad's Dadu. I said, oh, Dadu's gone up to the sky. And I never really felt that comfortable with it because I thought that he would look up and go, oh, is Dadu there? And I'm thinking at the time that's, I did the best I could. But if I was going through that process now I don't think I would say it in that way and you're shaking your head I would talk to you first so so I'm sorry to throw three or four themes at you there but I think they're going to be themes that a lot of people are thinking about at the moment and potentially struggling with so mean, they're very important themes. And so first of all, I think we do have a taboo around death. I mean, I think it is changing that we have this kind of magical thinking that if I even talk about, say the word dead or dying or think about death, it will somehow

hasten my own death. And if somehow I kind of think it happens to other people, then it's out there and it's not going to disturb me. The kind of surprising benefit, if you like, I'm not, the benefit isn't the right word, the thing about COVID is that it's made us all much more aware of our mortality. And I think it's meant that we've had the kinds of conversations that I would encourage people to be having to talk about death, to talk about what they would want to happen to them if they died, to think about ethical wills, not just about what you're going to do with your stuff, but the sort of beliefs that you're going to, you want people, your children or people that you care about to think about for themselves. people that you care about to think about for themselves. And then if you're being close to or a family member or a friend of someone who is bereaved from COVID, I mean, there are so many things to say, but the first of all is to acknowledge it. So the person that is grieving, as you say, they are transmitting a lot of suffering. And we pick that up bodily in our

system. And it makes us want to run. It makes us want to get away. Or it makes us want to, as you say, very rightly, find a fix. And often it's a fix to make them feel better. But also I think it's trying to give us a sense of like, I feel so powerless. What can I do? Death has happened and I can't make this better. And so people then say very unhelpful things like it's an end to his suffering or he's gone to a better place, which people who are grieving on the whole, not everybody, find incredibly difficult and annoying. So the big message is to make contact, first of all. Don't kind of disappear and cross the street, which people still do because they're frightened of saying something wrong.

Saying something is better than nothing. And really all you have to say is, I'm so sorry that whoever it is has died. And acknowledge it and say it genuinely. And then you know in their network of their friends whether you're a close friend that needs to show up and turn up and bring lasagna, sit with them, make soup with them, be with them, or you're a kind of further distant friend where you can drop things off, where you can maybe help now and again, send texts and show

up maybe later, you know, because the numbness and the shock is for a long time. The greater the suddenness of the death, the greater the surrealness, the greater the emotional investment in the person that's died, the greater the shock lasts for. Does that make sense? And so with COVID, it's likely to be unexpected and out of the blue, very sudden. And also they weren't there to say goodbye. So many of the deaths happened through a screen. So people, it feels surreal. It feels, you know, they didn't have an ending like we've always imagined an ending that you're sitting, I hope you were with or near your dad when he died. So you had the opportunity to say goodbye. I was with my dad holding his hand for the 12

hours leading up to his death I literally can remember him having his last meal which somehow after a week or so of not responding much he put everyone came to see him it's like he perked up for his last meal and you know my my son was climbing on top of him and the in the hospital beds um and and you know everyone was there and i remember holding his hands and seeing it was quite medicalized because he was connected to the machines and you could see his blood pressure dropping and i was just i was on one side my mom was on the other side. And literally I was, I felt, I feel so lucky that I got to feel every bit of life inside of him just slowly drain until he was no longer alive. And if I think about that now in contrast, of course, that's not... Such an important, significant, precious memory for very many reasons,

which is living in you like alive right now, like it was seven years ago. It's like so alive in you. It's like a video, isn't it? Yeah, and it's funny because I kind of felt I'm okay with everything now. And I think I am actually, but I mean, I don't know. How do you know when you have grieved?

Is there a moment? Like, is it when you don't get tearful anymore? Or is it different for everyone? It isn't over because the love never dies. So that very significant memory of you with your dad is in your body and is alive in you. And it came up now as strongly. And you would want it to.

You wouldn't want it to be less. So what we talk about now is that you live the new normal so that you learn to accommodate and live with the reality that the person that you love has died. And you can go through, you know, a few years down the line, you can go through weeks or even months not thinking about them. And then you'll see their favorite meal, or you'll smell it, or you'll hear a piece of music. And the memory of them comes through you, and it feels like they died yesterday and you may feel incredibly sad, but people kind of embrace that because, you know, like I've often said, the love never dies. So it's by remembering and touchstones to memory that they live on in us. And so you could ask your dad a question now and you'd probably be able to find the answer. But to contrast that with someone dying in a care home

or an intensive care unit where the people significant to them, maybe they had to shield too and couldn't come in or couldn't come in because of the health policies and watching it over a screen with a nurse is unbearable. So the single biggest predictor of outcomes in grief is the love and connection to others. So many, the numbers of people that died were mainly older. Of course, there were younger ones. They were a vulnerable shielding community so that children couldn't necessarily, the adult children couldn't necessarily be with them. So there were very many older generation in their home together who'd been healthy and well, where one of them became ill. Sometimes both of them became ill. One maybe have survived without the support of their children or other

family members watching the person who they may have been married to for like 50 years die over a screen. And then they don't have the normal rituals. So they had a small socially distanced funeral, which may be weeks away or somewhere on Zoom. You know, many people I've worked with have their parents died on, their funeral was on zoom so all the hundreds of years of practices and rituals and ways of behaving around death that support us that enable tens of thousands of years probably yeah yeah yeah i mean you know avebury has these stones you know we put stones in the ground as a memory of tombstones for death that have been for millions of years. So we've developed rituals for millions of years of how to cope

with the complexity of death and the way death is irreversible and invisible. So it's so visible the person has died. And yet everything that we feel about it, those words, you know, grief is a five letter word, but what we feel is like five worlds inside us trying to come to terms with it and trying to find a way of living with it. And so all our natural ways of supporting ourselves have been taken off the table at the same time. Yeah. So certainly in my lifetime, I mean, I think the First World War, which changed all the behaviors around death because up to then, you know, death was very much part of life. Queen Victoria was the sort of poster woman for grieving wearing black, you know, after Albert died till she died. But the First World War where millions of people died away from home and never came back.

That generation of mourners who they didn't have rituals, they had to get on, they had to survive. And my parents who were the children of those generations, all those rituals and ways of behaving were shifted and changed. So that is likely, I mean, that's the only thing that I can think of that is similar. But I know that all the helplines have been, to begin with, they were very quiet. So March and April, very few people contacted them. And then from the end of April, it's gone up five, 10 times. For people who are listening or watching and are struggling, I mean, I would absolutely recommend both of your books. Your first one, Griefworks, I think would be incredibly valuable for them.

Are there any other places you'd point them to? Oh yeah, on my website is what helps. And there's Cruise, Bereavement Care, there's all the organizations that they can get online support so so what's your websites juliasamuel.co.uk yeah brilliant i'll link to that in the show notes as well so people can easily find that it's in the what help section yeah when in interest you say about wearing black and it made me think in that sort of comparison I was making to indigenous cultures, there's this tradition to wear black here. If I think to my grandparents and my grandma,

she would wear a white sari after my granddad died. So that was, that there were these symbols in culture, which in one way, I guess, is helpful. But then if we flip it, is any of that potentially problematic? Like, I don't want us to judge other people in terms of how, you know, everyone's got a right, I think, to deal with death the way they want to deal with it. There's no right way. Yeah, exactly. to deal with death the way they want to deal with it. There's no right way. Yeah, exactly.

But I wonder, some cultures sort of celebrate, don't they? Rather than mourn a death, they celebrate a death. I mean, certainly in South America, there's a sort of big celebration and a festival around death and different belief system and colour and music and dance. But isn't that fascinating how we're all humans, we're all sort of wired the same way, yet the kind of, the absolute certainty in life that none of us can avoid is that we are going to die. And although we're the same, the way we look at death and celebrate or mourn it is so different depending on where we live and how we

were brought up. Completely. But I think the thing between black and white or South America is the symbols make tangible what's invisible. So whatever they are, whether you're wearing a white sari or a black armband, if you're a footballer or black armband anyway, to represent death, it signifies someone has died and we can all read it. And I wish that we wore black armbands all the time so that when you're on the tube or when you've left your credit card behind when you're mourning, that you even had a little black ribbon, you know, like a yellow or a pink one. So people would be kinder to you. They'd know, like, they wouldn't be screaming at you because you're, you know,

when you're grieving your memory and everything is chaotic, people often forget their credit cards or forget half their shopping or forget where they are. And so it would be nice to have an external symbol so people are a bit nicer to you yeah that's that's such a lovely thought and you think how many times do people get annoyed with other people parking or parking or or in traffic or they've sort of pulled out a junction or whatever you know and we're as a society i think we're pretty quick to judge we don't really think well what could be going on

in their lives maybe they're not where they want to be so that's a really nice idea um we we could probably easily have another conversation just on grief Julia uh one question I am going to ask before we finish and it's just touches to what I said before and this is slightly selfish because I would love to know the answer for myself, but also for people, is if my dad had died now, I would call you and I would say, Julia, how should I describe this to my son? And the reason I'm asking this is I say selfish. I'm sort of, I don't really feel it's selfish. I actually feel this would be very valuable for a lot of people. Have you got some sort of guidance for people on how they can explain death to children?

I have. So the outcome that you want is the children have the same truth and understanding as all the adults around them. So when you try and protect them by using words like gone to heaven or gone to a better place, that is giving them a story. Heaven could be a hamburger joint down the road that doesn't tell them the reality of what's happened. But also they will know something isn't right. They'll see you crying, other people crying. They'll see everyone coming in and out of the house in the past. And they'll know something's wrong, but they need to have a story, a beginning, a middle, and the end that explains what is going on around them. And it needs to be the same story that you have. So what children don't know,

they make up. And what they make up is much more likely to be frightening than the truth. So the reality, however difficult it is, say it's death by suicide, which people often don't want to tell children, telling them that truth is better than them finding out from social media or their friends, or knowing that you're not telling them the truth or finding out that you didn't tell them the truth 10 years later, where they then don't trust the most significant person in their life. So the words that you use, and you can kind of think about this with your partner or someone close to you, is to be very simple. So first of all, say what do they understand has happened to your grandfather?

Is there anything that you understand? Check what their understanding is first. And they probably know. You know, they'll probably say. But if they don't, you say that I'm really sad, but grandpa died this morning or a few hours ago. And his body looks like he's asleep, but he's not asleep. He has died.

And that means that his body doesn't work anymore. And then you allow them to ask you questions, to check. And one of the big things with children is they may then run off and go and kick a football. And so you kind of need to let them. But when they come back, let them ask you the questions and always tell you the truth. And one of the big things with children is that we need children to be allowed to grieve like adults. So one of the metaphors for children is to let them jump in a puddle and be very sad and let them jump out of a puddle and be a happy child, not a bereaved grandchild. But often what we do as parents, we want to stop them suffering.

So we say, no, no, don't be sad about grandpa. He's better. He's with grandma now. He's all right. And you try and squash down what they're feeling. Whereas if you just let them, you just say, yes, he's really sad. I really miss him. And you really miss him.

And they tell you how they're feeling. They're really sad. And then he'll hop off and go and have an ice cream, kick his brother, you know, be an ordinary. So they hop in and out of puddles, sadness and happiness. Juliet. And that's what we need to do as adults too by the way yeah and it's such wonderful advice honestly i can feel it inside me that's going to help

someone right now as a listing says it's going to help them and check what your children understand yeah about where their grandfather is just check with them where do you think he is what do you think has happened to him but that actually actually, that's just a good principle for communication in life, full stop, isn't it? It's like, before you start to sort of imprint a story or put your thing on, just find out what they currently believe. What is their, what's their reality?

And I found actually actually because I think over the last few years I've tried to undo what I did with The Sky Story which again I'm not sure it's the most helpful thing

I think it has been but I sort of feel when you're honest with kids they kind of get it they get it better than we do like I sort of feel

kids are born with this kind of they've got this reality and this understanding of life and we kind of educate them out of it. So suddenly then we've got these stories of the sky and this and stuff. And then all we're trying to do later is what you said was so beautifully simple. It's like, you just clearly, concisely tell them the reality and they sort of get it and process it. And it can be that simple, right? And, you know, if you're going to start fooling a section of the population,

don't start with the under fours because they are truth seekers. They, you know, they know what's going on, even if they don't have the words to say it, they know when you're telling the truth. And they need to trust you, need to trust the truth that you're telling the truth yeah and they need to trust you need to trust the truth that you're telling them yeah powerful advice julia look we've spoken for a long time and no please don't apologize i could have gone on for another hour there's so much i want to unpack with you um the podcast is called feel better live more when we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of our lives. I think the tools and the tips you have for people, the stories you share, absolutely are going to help people get more out of their lives. And I wonder if right at the end of this show today, you could

leave the listeners, leave the viewers with some of your most practical tips that they can start applying to improve the quality of their lives. I'd love to do that. I think the first one is that when they're going through a process of change, they will feel abnormal and to not fight it, but to support themselves in it. And for them, you know, to find out what that looks like. So for everybody that will be different, what they need to support themselves. For me, it is being self-compassionate. It is taking exercise. I kick kickbox so a lot of what i do is is about being empathic and still and in the moment so really punching the life out of the guy i kickbox with is the reverse so it really releases a lot of my kind of fury so work out for each of you how you express what you feel in a way that works for you.

And the thing that matters most, that is the hardest to do, is love, is the connection to others. But it starts with the connection with yourself, that how you are with yourself, how you speak to yourself will impact how you build relationships with those around you. But that is the thing that when people look at the end of their lives, when people reflect on what matters to them most, the thing that gives the meaning and purpose and happiness and health is the love and connection to others. So prioritize it. Wonderful words, wonderful insights, Juliaia thank you so much for making

the journey here today and i look forward to the next time we get to have our conversation it was an absolute pleasure and thank you so much that concludes today's conversation i really hope you enjoyed it. Do remember that inspiration and ideas are not enough in and of themselves. You have to take action if you want to create change. As always, my advice would be to keep things super simple and think about one thing you can take from today's show and implement into your own life immediately. Please do let Julie and I know what you thought of today's show on social media and go to drchastity.com forward slash 123 to see all the show notes and links to both of Julia's brilliant books. If you get value from my weekly podcasts,

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