Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - Top 5 Regrets Of The Dying: Life Lessons Everybody Learns Too Late with Bronnie Ware #383

Episode Date: September 12, 2023

What do you think you might be saying on your deathbed? Will you be looking back at your life with a sense of joy and completeness, or, do you think that you might be consumed with regret? As this week’s guest shares, “It’s easy to assume that you will live with great health to a ripe old age, then die peacefully in your sleep wearing your favourite pyjamas but it doesn’t work out that way for most people…” Bronnie Ware is an internationally acclaimed speaker and author of the bestselling memoir, The Top Five Regrets of the Dying. Published more than 10 years ago, it’s been translated into 32 languages and continues to attract new audiences. The book is about her eight years as an end-of-life carer, the close relationships she formed, and lessons she learned from those dying people, which changed her life forever. We discuss some of the various regrets of the dying and what they can teach us so that we can live better lives, right now. We talk about the concept of choice. Everything we do, or don’t do, has a price – be it time or money. Our culture incentivises what we can measure – salaries, possessions, status, social media ‘likes’ and comments. But Bronnie urges us to realise the sacredness and value of our time. Is a choice worth making if it means you have to sacrifice time with your loved ones? Is it worth pushing extra hard for the promotion that may bring you more money but also more stress and more time away from home? These are decisions that I think we all need to wrestle with from time to time if we are truly going to be living a contented and intentional life. We also talk about the real meaning of regret, what it means to be courageous, and how self-compassion can help us see our mistakes as a natural part of life and growth. Bronnie also defines the qualities and habits she observed in those patients who reached the end of life with no regrets – what can we learn from these people? Death can be a topic that many people shy away from discussing but Bronnie is a wonderful soul who is able to talk about death in a relatable, powerful and authentic way. Appreciating we are going to die is the first step to getting more out of life.   This really was a thought-provoking and intimate conversation. I hope you enjoy listening. Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/feelbetterlivemore. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com. Show notes https://drchatterjee.com/383 DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

I spent eight years looking after dying people and the most common regret during those eight years was I wish I'd lived a life true to myself, not the life that other people expected of me. The opinions of others are only as valid as you allow them to be. It's you that will be judging your life at the end. Hey guys, how you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee and this is my podcast, Feel Better, Live More.

What do you think you might be saying on your deathbed? Will you be looking back at your life with a sense of joy and completeness? Or do you think that perhaps you might be consumed with regret? As today's guest shares, it's easy to assume that you will live with great health to a ripe old age and then die peacefully in your sleep wearing your favourite pyjamas. But it doesn't actually work out that way for most people. Bronnie Ware is an internationally acclaimed speaker and author of the best-selling memoir, The Top Five Regrets of the Dying. Published more than 10 years ago, it's been translated into 32 languages and continues to attract new audiences. The book is really about her time as

a carer for people at the end of their lives, which ended up changing her own life forever. Now in our conversation, we discuss the various regrets of the dying and what they can teach us so that we can live better lives right now. We speak about the concept of choice. Everything we do or don't do has a price, be it time or money. And our culture incentivises what we can measure. Salaries, possessions, status, social media likes and comments. But Bronnie urges us to realise the sacredness and value of our time. Is something a choice worth making if it means you have to sacrifice time with your loved ones? Is it worth

pushing extra hard for that promotion that may bring you more money, but also more stress and more time away from home? You see, these are decisions I think we all need to wrestle with from time to time if we are truly going to be living a contented and intentional life. We also talk about the real meaning of regret, what it means to be living a contented and intentional life. We also talk about the real meaning of regret, what it means to be courageous and how self-compassion can help us see our mistakes as a natural part of life. And importantly, Bronnie outlines the qualities and habits she observed in those patients who reach the end of their lives with no regrets. What can we learn from these people? Death, of course, can be a topic that many people shy away from discussing,

but Bronnie really is a quite wonderful soul who's able to talk about death in a relatable, powerful, and authentic way. Appreciating we're going to die is the first step to getting more out of life. This really was a thought-provoking and intimate conversation. I hope you enjoyed listening. There's something about the truths that people share on their deathbeds the truths that people share on their deathbeds that teaches us about life. I mean, reading them for me caused me to reflect on everything in my life, not just my work, family balance, everything. How am I living my life? And I would also say that I think I came across it when I was ready to receive it. Yes. And so I wonder, could you just sort of outline those top five regrets of the dying and then we'll sort of maybe unpick them bit by bit?

Sure, sure. Well, the most common, I spent eight years looking after dying people and the most common regret during those eight years was I wish I'd lived a life true to myself, not the life that other people expected of me. And yeah, like you say, we'll unpack it. It's a pretty powerful one. The second most common was I wish I hadn't worked so hard. And then the third was I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings. And that came from a few different angles that we can talk about. And then I wish I'd stayed in touch with my friends. And the fifth one, I wish I'd allowed myself to be happier. I mean, there's so much there.

I was rereading them again this morning. Because for me, I'm always trying to look at root causes. So I'm trying to think, what's the root cause of a particular problem? Not necessarily downstream symptoms, what's upstream from that? And I looked at these five regrets and I asked myself the same question, are they all separate or actually is one more of an umbrella where the other four feed underneath. And to me at least, I felt that first one you shared is almost like an umbrella. I wish I had the courage to live a life. I wish I had the courage to live my life, not the life that other people expected off me.

To me at least, I feel if we get that right, like spending time with our friends, not working so hard, choosing happiness, to me, they feel downstream of that kind of central idea. Now, you wrote the book. When I say that to you, does that land or do you see it differently? It absolutely lands. And despite the amount of interviews and conversations I've had over the decade, no one's ever put it that way before. But it absolutely lands because if you are honouring that first one and living a life true to yourself, you are going to prioritise work-life balance. You're not going to work as hard. You're going to do things that make you happy, like stay in touch with your friends. You're going to do those other things. And

so, yeah, I think that's very well perceived that if you're honouring your own life, then you certainly have less chance of having those other regrets as well. I mentioned that these ideas came to me at a time in my life where I was very open to receiving them. I don't know what would have happened had I come across these ideas when I was in the midst of caring for my father and having a young family and working and being stressed out, burnt out. I don't know, you know, maybe it would have landed, maybe it would have helped me then. But I get a sense from not only that book, but your other books that I've got here that I've read, that you are very spiritual. I don't know if you resonate

with that term, but you come across to me as someone who believes that life unfolds in the way believes that life unfolds in the way that it's meant to unfold, that we get the right message at the right time. And so for me, certainly this came to me at the right time. Yeah, I believe strongly in readiness and timing. Absolutely. And it is a divine thing. It's definitely my relationship with divinity that gives me the faith to trust in that readiness and timing. And so it didn't come to you at another time. It came to you when it was the right time and when you're ready to receive it. And I know people that have received the book in their 80s and then I know backpackers

that have carried it around Europe in their backpack in their 20s. backpackers that have carried it around Europe in their backpack in their 20s. So I think it just lands where any message just lands when we're ready to hear it. We can hear things repeatedly beforehand, but sometimes, like I'm sure in your time of looking after your dad, raising your family, working really hard, there were other messages similar coming to you from different angles, but you weren't ready to hear them. And so sometimes the message has to be articulated in the right choice of words or in the right language for us to actually hear them. And I think that's where the readiness and timing lines up as well, that life can be saying to you, slow down for a long time,

but suddenly you hear it a certain way and it just lands and you think, oh yeah. And I think also we, we get the messages that we're looking for, right? So let's look at this through a different lens. Many people know the idea that if they have gone to a car garage, maybe to look for a new car and they're looking at a red car of a particular brand, a particular make. Suddenly, for the next two weeks, they think, oh, wow, there's loads of red cars on the street. That particular car. It's everywhere. It's everywhere.

And of course, it's not that magically over those two weeks, suddenly that same car appears everywhere. No, you have directed your attention to that red car and that particular model. So now your brain, which is always filtering out so many inputs that come in, is like going, oh, there it is, there it is. I'm interested in that. And I feel it's the same thing here, that actually, if we put our attention to this and say, that actually, if we put our attention to this and say, you know what, I'm slightly dissatisfied. I feel I'm working too hard. I may be in my forties and my job is not serving me. I don't particularly enjoy it. Is this what life is? I know for a fact, this is how so many people feel, Bronnie, that often in midlife, they're like, is this it? Like something,

you know, you're at school, you're trying to strive, you're in your twenties, you're trying to find out what you're meant to do, your career, thirties, maybe you have kids. Of course, not everyone. This is just, you know, I don't mean to cliche it too much, but I often find when people hit their forties, it's very much like, is this it? Is this all there is? And so I think many people these days are asking themselves the question, what does it mean to live a happy and contented life? Yeah, I think so as well. And I think that the conversation is a lot more public now, which almost gives people permission to question their discontent. Back in the old days, you'd stay in one job for your whole career and whether you were happy or

not really didn't come into it. You just stayed in that job. And now because the dialogue is a lot more public, then people can actually voice their discontent. But prior to that, it's just that quiet discontent to start with and we can only deny it in ourselves for so long and then either we find the courage to make the change or life throws a curveball our way, which is really just our heart asking for a big change that we haven't given ourselves permission for and life will throw a curveball and break our life up. And then we're

like, oh, okay, well, I need to reset here. And how am I going to find my way forward differently? Yeah. Let's go to the second regret. I wish I hadn't worked so hard. second regret I wish I hadn't worked so hard now as a doctor I've been very alarmed for many years at the growing rates of chronic stress the increasing rates of burnout and there was one I think recent UK study that suggested that 88% of UK workers had experienced some form of burnout in the past two years. Now, this is just one study, right? So I don't want to make a generalisation. No, but that's still a lot. Whether it's slightly exaggerated or not, that's an alarming signal in terms of what it says about

our culture, about the way that we're living our lives. So there will be people listening or watching right now, Bronnie, who probably feel that they work too hard. How would you help that regret land for them? I wish I hadn't worked so hard, right? So people say that on their deathbed. But for that person who can't see a way out, how is that regret going to help them? A lot of people will think there's no choice but to work hard because of their responsibilities. And, you know, I'm a mom, I have to provide for my daughter. And I get that. I get that there's responsibilities.

and I get that. I get that there's responsibilities. But around that regret was not making life, not making work your whole life. And that was the regret that the patients shared, that they had let their work become their whole identity and their whole life. And then when work was taken away, there was nothing left and they hadn't spent the time with their family that they wanted or they hadn't achieved other personal dreams that they had hoped to.

And so I think it's a case of just creating a little bit of space. And when, you know, I'm guilty of it, you're guilty of it. I think any of us who have really gone for our dreams and or having responsibilities. We've all worked too hard and we've all worked ridiculously unhealthy hours at some point. But it's about like navigating that, pulling that in a little bit and thinking, okay, well, I'm actually going to show up better for my work if I have a bit of a break sometimes.

So I find now I always say space is medicine. So space is medicine to me. If I leave space and I actually have to schedule it in sometimes to have unplanned time that has no agenda just to allow myself to be in and let the day take me wherever it wants to. When I do that, I return to my work with so much more efficiency and clarity. So I get things done in a shorter time than what I thought I needed. And so there's that aspect, but there's also, say, you know, you're working too hard as a doctor prior to, you know, you waking up to this and you're wanting to spend more time

with your family, especially while they're young, if you can at least just take an extra two or three hours a week off from work, the world will keep going. And the more you can do that and make a habit of that, of honoring some part of your life that you're craving, whether that's more time with your family, whether that's getting out on a golf course, whatever it is. So if you can just, you know, if any of us can just think, what would I love to do if I didn't have to work so hard? And then cut out, even if it's like three hours, a fortnight or something like that, but commit to it and create that habit of it, then life

tends to expand and support us because we've shown the courage and the commitment to actually having a better life and living how we want. And so I've found that in doing that, life gifts us with more space or more time to do those things and everything else copes. And if it's a case of I'm working 60 hours a week, if I don't work that, I'm going to get sacked, well, you're probably in the wrong job. Yeah.

You know, get sacked. Find a job that's 40 hours a week or 35 hours a week and actually try and create some space for your life. I love that idea. Space is medicine. Yep. It's mine. It's my medicine. That's exactly how I treat it. It's really beautiful because there's a macro component to that and a micro one. So as we're speaking, I'm a couple of days away from taking my summer break. Now, from taking my summer break. Now, this is a big macro thing, which I have fortunately been able to implement over the last couple of years. Before that, I couldn't, but I take a prolonged break now

each summer. And as I say that, I want to acknowledge that I fully appreciate that not everyone is able to do that. I'm now in a place in my career where I can. And it doesn't mean I completely, you know, don't do any work at all, but I mean, without going into all the specifics, let's say this podcast, for example, the common narrative is that you can't break. The online world demands content. You've got to keep releasing. You've got to, you know, back it up in advance so you can take your break and keep releasing it. And that's what many content creators do. I just don't want to do it. Well done.

I know it sounds, I don't know how relatable that is to people, but for me and my world, that has been a conscious decision to go, I'm not buying into that. There's only one way that goes. That goes down to burnout. That is not the way I wish to live my life. Firstly, my wife is the producer on the show. So if we release all summer, like as a family, there's no switch off there. You would just be aware things are going out. You've got to check various things. There's, you know, a show like this has so many things to check before each show goes out. So we just break it for six weeks and people say, oh, you know, you're going to lose listeners. It gives someone else an opportunity to get in that slot. And I'm

like, you know what? I don't care. I literally don't care because I have worked too hard in the past. And now I realize that actually I want that space in my life. My kids are young. They're off for the summer holidays. So, you know, in two days we're going off for three weeks or three and a half weeks. And I can't wait. There'll be no work. It will just be spending time together, swimming, walking, going out for meals, whatever it might be. And actually the truth is when I come back, I'm better able to have great conversations on this show. And so when I hear that space is medicine, the term that comes up for me is work-life balance. And I think I don't really like that term anymore, work-life balance, because I think, I don't really like that term anymore,

work-life balance, because as you say, there are times in your life when you may have to go all in. And that's okay. I think the problem lies, and I'd welcome your perspective on this, especially having spoken to people at the end of their lives so much. I think the problem is when that continues unchecked for too long. Like let's say you've got a business project, you're writing a book and you're going all in for a year. Okay, the problem is that that year becomes five years and 10 years. And for those 10 years, you're never seeing your wife or your kids. But maybe for that one year, so that's one aspect I wanted to share with you. But then there's also the micro of space being medicine, whereby can you block out a bit of time each weekend where you're giving yourself that space?

Can you block off a bit of time each day, whether it's just 15 minutes to give yourself that space? So I kind of feel it works on so many levels. Yeah, sure does. Sure does. And you're right. I mean, if we're working, especially project-based things, we do go all in and we work like crazy. But, and often when we're getting towards the end of something, the new ideas are already there for the next thing. But what I've found is I don't jump straight into the next thing now. I just trust in that it'll be okay. That if I don't have a new project lined up straight afterwards, it's going to be okay. Like if there's a gap in between the projects,

it's going to be okay. I've come this far, I'm going to survive. And anyone listening has come this far and they're going to survive. And so I think it's, you know, it's really important to acknowledge that that regret around not working too hard isn't about not loving your job. It's just not making your job your whole life and that you do take that other time off. But then on the other levels, those little bits of time, like you just said, 15 minutes or an hour or whatever, it's a habit and it's like building a muscle. And the more you do those little things, and when I say about creating the space, it's space with no agenda.

So it's space to lie in your backyard, in your back garden or whatever and look at the sky. It's space to lie in your backyard, in your back garden or whatever and look at the sky or you might sort of feel like, okay, I've given myself two hours today. I might just go to a cafe and not be on my phone, just sit and have a cuppa and watch people go by or I certainly turn my phone off a lot. Me too.

And I'm actually off social media at the moment. And for someone who, you know, I have over a million books, a million readers of Five Regrets, and that's a huge success. But in terms of my social media numbers, they're really, really small because I love my social media audience, but I've never prioritised it. And I have a very devoted mailing list and I write my fortnightly newsletter no matter what. But I don't feel like I'm missing out. I have tried, you know, doing the mass amounts of content and pouring it out there, but I just felt like it was really out of alignment

with who I am and how I want to live. And so I'm actually off social media at the moment. I've just said to my audience, I'm just taking a break for a while. And I don't know if that's, I think it's been nearly a month already, but I don't know if that's going to be a month or three months. I just knew that I was sick of all that little micro, you know, just the busyness of the tech world. And so I think there's an element of faith in there as well because whatever your faith is, because you've got to believe or you learn to believe that you'll be okay if you do it your own way. And the more that we can actually face the fact that we're going to die and realise the sacredness of our time, the more courage we have to trust in that

and to actually think, okay, the world won't fall apart, say, if you don't have a podcast for six weeks. If people went off and listened to something else, they're going to come back in six weeks. They're going to be hanging out for you to come back. And like you said, you're going to have better conversations when you come back as well. But also, Bronnie, on that,

and we're getting slightly off the truths here a little bit, but in, I think, the book after the top five regrets of the dying, Your Year for Change, 52 Reflections for Regret-Free Living, one of the chapters in that I really loved was called Dissolving the Ego. So this is something I really think a lot about. So let's just go to that point you just made. Let's say in those six weeks off, right, an avid listener finds a show that they prefer to this one. That's okay, isn't it? Of course it's okay. That's okay. Yes. Maybe there's a better show. Maybe there's a content which resonates with them deeper than mine does. For where they're at right now.

For where they're at. And I always ask myself this question. If you're doing this for impact, not ego, it kind of doesn't matter. You make it matter in your head because we often live according to the constructs that society has conditioned us with. That's the first regret, right? Wish I had the courage to live a life, live my life and not the life other people expected of me. So if you're conditioned from a young age that, as I very much was, that being the best is really important, that external validation is how you measure yourself

with. I mean, these are things that I've really had to unpick over the past 10 years. And now I will say I feel in a very, very good place. Most of the time, I can still fall back into old patterns sometimes, especially when I'm tired or overworked, but generally I feel pretty good. So if you go down that line of thinking, in fact, let's go to dissolve in the ego because I thought it was a powerful chapter. I think it totally plays into these top five regrets. You say in that chatter that this is what we are here for, to dissolve the ego. And you shared how you initially used to feel when people would repost your work

without giving you credit. And then there was this beautiful idea that there's a legal ramification here and a sole ramification. So I wonder if you could share your thoughts on that. Yeah, I still have readers write to me all the time and say, this has been shared and they haven't credited you and da da da, and I have a very loyal audience. So they're always bringing it to my attention. But I have to stop and think, well, I'm the messenger for this, for the five regrets of the dying, and I'm very honoured to do that. And I have to earn a living to support my child, but not at the detriment of every other part

of my life. So if I spend, and I have followed through legally on a couple of occasions, but if I spend every single minute chasing up every single misuse of my work, well, then I'm wasting my sacred time on things that aren't lighting me up. well, then I'm wasting my sacred time on things that aren't lighting me up. And so if I can let go of having to be credited for every single thing and realise that I'm honoured to share this message, life is looking after me. My daughter and I haven't had to go hungry yet. You know, we're doing fine.

I've gone hungry before she came along. I know what it's like. But life is supporting me enough. And so I just trust that the message will reach who it needs to reach. And so there's the physical side. If I chased it all up, I may get some more book sales because people who don't know the work yet may be drawn to me and get to know me through whatever platforms I'm on. But on a soul level, I just feel honoured that I've been chosen as a messenger for this, that I got to live those experiences that have then shaped my own life massively.

And that, does it really matter? Like I don't want to miss the present moment of my life, the present moments of my life unfolding, of my daughter growing up, of all her little nuances changing just because I need to prove that, hey, hang on a sec, that's my work and I deserve to be credited for it. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

The key word that for me keeps coming up here is choice. The choice of how are you going to live your life? What are you going to put your attention on, focus your energies on? Because you're right, you could actually chase up every single one of them. But at what cost? Yeah, exactly. You know, and I kind of feel strongly that this is something we all need to consider in our own lives. Just this idea that every single thing in life that we choose to do or not choose to do,

there's a price. Whether it's a financial price, whether it's a time price. And I don't think we often look at that. Like, I honestly, I think about this a lot, and I don't think we often look at that yeah like I honestly I think about this a lot and I'm writing about this in my next book at the moment this this idea that the very best things in my life they can't actually be measured by the societal definition of success the amount of time I spend with my children each week, I have no metric I can show people and go, hey, look at me. The intimacy or connection I have with my wife, I don't have a metric I can share with people to show that, right? So the culture that, right? So the culture incentivizes a lot of things that don't bring us happiness.

Like if you have so many more followers, and believe you me, I know a lot of influencers who are deeply unhappy. Genuinely, I've met so many. But you would think from the outside, looking at the numbers, that would be incredible. And so it's great to hear you as a very, very successful author who's made a conscious choice to say, you know what, I don't have time or energy for social media. You know, I'll do what I can when I can, but that's not the best use of my time. Yeah, well, the thing is though, Rangan... just taking a quick break to give a shout out to ag1 one of the sponsors of today's show now if you're looking for something at this time of year to kickstart your health i'd highly recommend that you consider ag1 ag1 has been in my own life for over five years now. It's a science-driven daily health drink with over 70 essential nutrients to support your overall health. It contains vitamin C and zinc, which helps support a healthy immune system, something that

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they're not there at the end of your life when you're reflecting back. And they'll probably be new regrets down the track. I wish I hadn't spent so much time online. Because those things that you're saying can't be measured, the time, you know, the beautiful relationship with your wife and with your children, they help you show up in the world as a happier person or as a more peaceful person. And either way, it's you that will be judging your life at the end. And so the opinions of others are only as valid as you allow them, as anyone allows

them to be. And those people are going to die too. So, you know, they're going to have to reconcile their own choices along the way as well. But for ourselves, if we can realise the sacredness of our time and realise that, as you said about choice, like every single choice has a price. Everything has a price, definitely. And if you can realise that every choice you make or you don't make has a price, then you actually start looking at, is this worth the price? And so in your case, you're saying it's not worth the price of going gung-ho and losing time with your family. You've prioritised the price on that.

And I agree. I remember one time I was really nomadic. I had no responsibilities at all. I was living in the back of an old four-wheel drive that I'd just taken the seat out and thrown a mattress and curtains in. And most of the time I loved it but there was also a real emptiness driving me in those years and a loneliness.

And I was listening to the Chris Christopherson song, I think it was me and Bobby McGee, he says, freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose. And that's where I was. You know, I was as free as the wind, but I had nothing to lose. And I realised in that moment just driving along and listening to that that freedom had a price and I was glorifying my freedom and I still, it's one of my highest values, I still love freedom,

but it had a price and I started weighing it up. Is this price worth it for me now like am I at the point where the cost of this is actually detrimental or advantageous to me and I realized then it was becoming detrimental so if you can realize that every choice you're making does have a price you just think well do i want to pay that price and also it's what works for you at that time in your life right we can change our priorities you know maybe going around in a van being nomadic was great at a particular point in your life until it wasn't that's right right yeah and i think all of us have this stuff going on in our lives. There's choices we make, there's behaviours we do that work until they don't.

Until they don't, yeah. And so I feel it's a constant, I feel one of the most important skills we can learn is the ability to re-evaluate. You know, we all sometimes, as we've said, have to overwork, or we feel we have to, but there's a price to that. And maybe that price is worth it. Maybe that gives you a better job that allows you to take care of your family and yourself in a better way. Great. But unfortunately, many people keep doing that and they retire at 65 and realize they have no relationships left. And, you know, I'm sure that that would have come up many times for you. Absolutely. I think also that conversation about ego, I think it's so important. You know, I face similar things. I have a beautifully loyal

audience who will say, hey, wrong and listen, they, you know, shared your work and they're not giving you credit. And once I got an email or a message on Instagram saying, oh, this school has basically taken your four pillar plan and put it on their website without giving you credit. And then I think self-awareness is such an important skill. So if I look back at that, honestly, my initial feeling was, oh, they've not credited me. And then I very quickly thought, wait a minute, Rangan, this is a school, right? They're taking these ideas to help the kids with their physical wellbeing and their mental wellbeing. And you know what, mate? You didn't kind of invent this stuff yourself. You've been influenced by the books you've read, the people you have followed

over the years. And yes, you try to put it across in your way for some people it's been helpful, for others maybe not so much. I think there's a real humility to go, I didn't invent this stuff, right? I'm just a messenger of things that I think are useful. So what would it say about me if I was then going to get a bit frustrated with a school for sharing material that's going to help them? And I get it. It's easy, you know, as a successful author to say, oh, you know, that stuff doesn't matter. I imagine someone else at a different stage in their creative life, for example, it may be problematic. So I do want to acknowledge that. But there's something there isn't there about our

ego and what's really driving us yes yeah I think so and and it is wrong if people are intentionally stealing your work and not crediting you and it is wrong but if if you can like follow up sometimes if it needs to be followed up and and let people, hang on, I'm not cool with this, but at what price? Like, is stopping them worth what you've got to give up to do that? And so it's just weighing, constantly weighing it up in life. And we are always at different stages. And so initially, yeah, I would have been ropeable if people were sharing my work. And I had worked so hard to even get the book out there. It had taken me 14 years to become an overnight success. And so if people were sharing my work then, yeah, I would have been like a vigilante and been after

them. But then I started coming back to what I'd learned through my meditation practice that we are here to dissolve the ego. And now, you know, occasionally my team will send a message to someone and say, can you please credit Bronnie because you're using her work. But most of the time I just want to focus on where I'm at now and I'm working on other things now. I guess the deeper, more spiritual question is, is anything really our work? That's right. Is it? No, of course it's not.

And I say that as a challenge to ourselves and to all of us. Like none of us come out, we're all influenced, aren't we? You're influenced by those interactions. Yes. we're all influenced aren't we you're influenced by those interactions yes you know and I I find that's just a for me personally a very helpful way a very calm way of interacting with the world that hey listen you know the best you're a songwriter I'm also a songwriter and so many songwriters will say that it's not my song, it just came through me. It just came through me, that's right. And I think we're not only gifted with being the channel for

any expression, any creative expression, but in doing so, we're gifted with the courage that we've had defined to bring it through and release it into the world. And so we're sort of receiving indirect rewards besides the monetary side as well. And because you're very vulnerable when you release something into the world and you have to break through the resistance of how it will be received or will it even be received, just having the guts to do things like that is a personal reward anyway and expands us on a spiritual level so I just always feel grateful and honored when stuff comes through me and and delighted because it's it's so fun creating and but I've reached the stage where I now create regardless of what outcome and I still need to earn money,

I still need to support my family, I've got big dreams like everyone else. But some things I'll release into the world won't really become big incomes or even incomes really, just very small things but I've really enjoyed doing them and having them out there. And then there's other things that I'll do that will actually make me really good money that my heart was into, but not massively. It was just like, oh yeah, I feel called to do this now. I'll do that. And it's like, oh, okay, that's surprising.

I guess one of the ironies is that when you wrote your blog, The Top Five Regrets of the Dying, you probably never ever imagined that this would turn into a worldwide sensation, selling millions of books. So it's funny, we can say that actually some things I'm just going to put out there for the joy of them, rather than because of what will come on the back of it. But I guess maybe the best art is the art that we put out without any expectation at all, because that landed in a way that you can't predict. You couldn't have got together with a branding team and figured it all out. Oh yeah, this is going to

land, right? It wouldn't have worked. There's a certain beauty to the fact that you just put it out there and it blew up. I don't think it blew up initially, right? No, I had 25 rejections for the book. No, so I wrote the blog and it took about six to eight months. So when did you write the blog? In 2009. So you wrote a blog called The Top Five Regrets of the Dying in 2009.

After I googled good blog topics. Okay. And what was Regrets of the Dying in there? Yeah. Yeah. Because I just finished teaching songwriting in a women's jail. That was what I did after working with the dying. I wanted to work where there was some hope. And so I had this random idea. I'm going to teach songwriting in a women's jail. Never been inside a jail, had no skills in teaching, but somehow managed to get some funding through a philanthropic mob and set up this program. And so then a music magazine asked me to write an article about that experience. So I wrote that blog.

And then I thought, why aren't I writing more? I love writing. I always had pen friends as a kid. I'll start a blog. And then I've Googled good blog topics and it was stuff like sensationalism, like Angelina Jolie and, you know, some sort of gossipy thing. It's like whatever was hot at the time. And I was just like, oh no, I certainly can't write about Hollywood sensationalism. And then a day or two later, I was just sitting there in a real calm

moment of space, watching a bird, sitting on an outside lounge. And then I just got this really clear guidance, right? What you know. And I thought, okay, well, I know about dying people and I know about the regrets they shared with me because I've been transforming my own life through those regrets, being exposed to those regrets for the last eight years. And so I wrote the article then. And so then it took about six to eight months to actually go crazy, go viral. And it was actually during that time that I sunk into a really heavy, my only and first experience of depression.

And so as I was coming out of that and I just said to life, I'm bored of being sad, just show me a new way forward. I can't look after dying people anymore. I certainly can't go back to being a bank manager, which I was, you know, decades before that. And then the blog took off. And so then an agent came to me, said, you want to write a book? I'll represent you.

And I said, yeah, sure. Everyone's got a book in them. I can write about the regrets of the dying, but I can only do it in a way that it's a memoir because people aren't going to buy a book about death. They need, you know, no one wants to just open a book and read just about death. And I also wanted people to see how hard it is to break through your resistance and actually allow yourself to live according to how you want to live. And so that was rejected by 25 publishers. And then, so I thought, well, you know, I've been an independent singer-songwriter or tried to be,

and I'll put it out independently. So I did that in the October of 2011 and then in February of 2012, in the same 24 hours as I went into labour, first time mum at 45, like really blessed to conceive naturally and quickly at 44 and so about to become a mum. Then the book took off, The Guardian quoted it and it just went ballistic. So I was doing emails in labour from my hospital bed and that night I closed the lid of the computer and I sent a prayer out and I said, send me help now because I'm going to quit. Because I had worked so hard to get my message out there as a singer-songwriter or whatever. And before that I was doing like inspirational quotes. This is all before the internet, selling them at markets with my nature photos and I was ready to quit. And then the next day my daughter's born and Hay House rang me

and said, we'd like to offer you an international deal. So, you know, I think that's why I'm so strong about timing and readiness as well because I genuinely was going to quit. I mean, there was so much there. I want to know. It's lovely. There's just so much I want to ask you about. You used to go to a market and sell these kind of inspirational quotes.

Can you remember one of your favourite inspirational quotes? Oh, I had this snow gum, which is a beautiful gum tree, but it's got red. They're about 35 in my range. and I used to cut the matting myself and everything for the frames and make the cards and glue the photos onto the cardboard cards. It was all, you know, very manually and I was just showing my commitment. But there was one of this red in the bark.

The snow gums have these really bright colours in them and I'd taken it at a certain angle and it just said, it's only through stretching ourselves that we can reach the sky. And that was one of the most popular ones. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. You mentioned before writing the blog, you were talking about writing what you know.

You had already experienced changes in your own life from working with dying people. Do you remember one of the first moments when you heard something from someone who was dying, when you actually stopped and reflected on your own life, I thought, wow, I'm sort of guilty of that. I could maybe make a change here. Do you remember that first moment? Yeah, I definitely, it was with Grace, who was one of my favourite patients. And she had stayed in a very unhappy marriage for decades. And she'd wanted to travel around Australia. And her husband didn't want to, and he was a bit of an ogre and he ended up going into a nursing home

and so she went straight off to the travel agent. She was in her mid-80s, went off to a travel agent and picked up a catalogue, a brochure for bus tours around Australia but it turned out that she had lung cancer and she'd never smoked and he'd smoked in the home all those years. And so I was looking after her. She never went anywhere. She hardly even left the house after that or didn't leave the house once I arrived.

And so she squeezed me. She was a tiny little lady and she squeezed me in my hand in her tears and said, promise me, Bronnie, that promise this dying woman that you'll always have the courage to live a life true to yourself, not the life others expect of you. And it was my first awakening to the fact that, you know, that's why my ears were open to hearing similar sort of the same message but in different words through other people to come, other patients to come. And that's when I sort of really stopped and thought about it

and I was really trying hard to get going as a singer-songwriter then. And so I was doing gigs at singer-songwriter nights and open mic nights while I was looking after the dying people and I didn't have a lot of confidence. I was a non-drinker. My father had been a very successful musician. He was just knocking me down like crazy and telling me I was a waste of time and wasting my time. And I was a dreamer and, you know, all those sort of things you don't need to hear from the people you want to, please.

But I remember the anguish and the heartache of Grace in that moment. And I thought, the anguish and the heartache of grace in that moment and I thought what does that mean like what does that look like to live a life true to myself not the life that other people expect of me and because I'd left the banking industry a good career I'd sort of been really condemned in the family from that as well and good in a bit of commerce I had a good job good career I had a good job and a good career you know what are you trying to do now? And, you know, it used to be a running joke, oh, where is she now? What's she doing now? You know, and all I was trying to do was find my way. And thankfully, my mum always believed in me. And even at one point, she was so scared. And I said to her, if you can't have faith in me, have faith in my faith in me.

And I did have faith in me. But I think that time with Grace was a real turning point because I stopped and questioned what does that even look like for me? And I thought, well, dear, I think I could be a creative person and make a living as a creative person because that's what I want to do. Yeah. It's so powerful. I guess just that experience, whether it causes us to overnight transform our lives,

which it probably doesn't for anyone, it just opens a door, doesn't it? Yes, it's a start. It just opens a little door to go, wow that there may be another way you know I I'm I guess biased in terms of my friend circles and how I grew up um but of course I know a lot of doctors and I know a lot of doctors who went into medicine because it is a good job to do. Not necessarily because it was their calling. You know, and certainly in Indian immigrant families in the West, it is highly valued being a doctor.

So many of us end up in medicine, not always because we have a deep desire to be a doctor. That's the truth. Yes. Right? And it may be a truth that people don't want to hear or acknowledge, but it is a truth. So the way I see the world, it's a truth. And okay, let's play this out. Let's say there's a doctor listening to this right now who's 44, right? Let's say they're married. Let's say they've got kids, they've got a mortgage,

but they don't like their job and they feel trapped and they feel, hey, listen, Bronnie, these regrets all sound pretty cool. I get what you're saying, you know, but I have no choice here, right? I've got a mortgage. I've got children to feed. This is what I trained to do. I've been doing it for 15 years now. There's nothing else I can do. What would you say to them? I'd say there's always a choice.

It doesn't mean it's easy making significant changes, but there's always a choice. Do you need to live where you're living? Do you need to live in such a big house? Do you need to have where you're living? Do you need to live in such a big house? Do you need to have such a big mortgage? Could you sell your practice and work, what's called a locum, like could you go part-time while you start studying for something else or start, or could you drop one day a week to start, you know, putting your toe in the water of some other direction?

start, you know, putting your toe in the water of some other direction. It doesn't have to be the shock of dropping everything in one go. But could you drop one day a week or could you reduce your mortgage or, you know, could you relocate and choose a simpler life? How much of what you're doing is the responsibilities that you've created for yourself or how much is it because you're worried what other people will be thinking of you if you're not a doctor anymore yeah wonderful advice so many questions there that i think i think relate to all of us i think all of us can think about those and reflect because it's not a one hit where you just read the book and suddenly change everything it's a constant re-evaluation, isn't it? Yes. Yep.

You know, when you were sharing the story of Grace, I actually started thinking of my dad. Because dad's work and his overwork and chronic stress for 30 years, where he effectively only slept for three nights a week for 30 years he was working that hard day job night job to provide for his family and you know all kinds of things which i've spoken about on the show before it was only towards the end of dad's life that i learned i think from dad or from mom that i think it was from mum actually. I think it was after dad died that dad had always planned in retirement, you know, so at 65, I'm going to go back to India and set up some street clinics

and help kids and families who don't have anything. It's actually quite emotional thinking about it now because I think he fell into I I can't say fell into the trap because I can't speak to his motivation if that was still alive now I I would have to ask him was it worth it you know he may say actually you know what was worth it to leave india to come here to set you and your brother up to be able to provide for my family back at home yeah getting lupus kidney failure nearly losing my eyesight all that stuff he might say it was worth it so i i can't be arrogant enough to speak for him. I have to respect that he made choices. Yeah, okay. But so instead of saying falling into the trap,

what I can say is that he made the assumption that many of us make, which is we'll have time in the future. In fact, you, where was it in your book? I think you say something about assumptions. Can I find it? I think it was page 30. Yes. Okay. I've got it. This is in your year for change, right? I scribbled all over your book because I thought it was so key. It is easy to assume that you will live with great health to a ripe old age and then die peacefully in your sleep wearing your favourite pyjamas. It doesn't

work out this way for most people, however. No one wants to face the fact that they may not live past 60, they may not even live past 40, but this is the truth of life. Yeah, it is. And we all assume we're going to live a long time. We also assume we'll have time to reflect and make changes and that sort of thing. And it's not the way of life. I mean, you look at animals, there's always young ones die, there's old ones die, there's middle-aged ones die. And it's exactly the same with humans. And so when a child dies or a young adult, everyone says they died too soon. And of course, you know, it's heartbreaking. I've had friends that have lost children under 10,

and it's just devastating. But that is actually how life works. And I've had quite a few friends die in their 30s and 40s. And one of them, he rang me and he'd just been diagnosed with stage four pancreatic cancer. He was a songwriter. And he said, when I get through this, let's write some songs together. And I said, sure, you know. And so he'd been diagnosed three weeks earlier. Three weeks later, he was gone. And he was like, I'm going to get better. I've got two teenage boys, you know, I'm not going to leave them without a father, everything else. He was gone. He was like, I'm going to get better. I've got two teenage boys. You know, I'm not going to leave them without a father, everything else. He was gone. He was just like that.

And so the more we can actually understand that we may not have those years in retirement and retirement may not look how we think it's going to look anyway, because what plan in life ever turns out exactly as we think anyway? Life always throws some curveballs to stretch us and help us grow and help us prioritise things that light us up. And so we can sort of think, yeah, at 65 I'll be all cashed up and I'll retire and I'll go off and play golf or travel the world. But a year before you retire, you may end up in a wheelchair for some reason

or you may end up dead. Yeah. We can hear that. Someone's out for their run or walk right now. They've just heard that. What's going to change that person? Not that we can change anyone else, but I guess what I'm trying to get to is we can hear these things. We can watch films where we see this stuff and then

we can almost compartmentalize it and get back on with our lives and then not make a change. But that is so real. The fact that you could step out your front door and get knocked down by a car. Yes. It's by acknowledging that you could step out your front door and get knocked down by a car. Yes. It's by acknowledging that you're going to die. Yes. That you get to truly live life. And what's really interesting when I read your work, is that I don't think I was exposed to death growing up. I had a complete disconnection with where my food came from, right? Complete disconnection.

And I think until my dad died, I don't think anyone close to me had died. So I think that's why I found it so difficult and why it changed me so much. Yeah, sure. Whereas you write about your childhood growing up on a farm and how you saw death all the time with animals. So how do you think your childhood experience there with animals has potentially influenced the way that you see death now as an adult?

Well, it was just a part of life. And so it helps me realize it is a part of life. I'm going to die. You're going to die. Person listening to this jogging with their headphones on, you're going to die. You are going to die. And so none of us get out of it. And so we not only saw a lot of death, but my parents would have a butcher out and I'd see the cows or sheep in the yard in the morning.

And by the nighttime, we were writing on the cut of meat while it was still warm and put it in a plastic bag and writing what cut of meat it was and then putting it into a huge freezer. And so it just made me realise that it can be over just like that. I'm in these warm slabs of meat. I'm a vegetarian now and you understand why because it was a bit too real. But those, seeing the cows or seeing the animals of a day in the morning alive and of a night in the freezer, it just became a way of life. And I think it helped me on levels I didn't even grasp as a child then.

And there were dead birds, there were dead snakes, there was dead animals all the time. And so we were also the same. We weren't exposed to death very much at all. And it really wasn't until I went into working with the dying that I was exposed to death on a regular basis. But even with the first person I looked after, Ruth, that I speak about in the book, even with the first person I looked after, Ruth, that I speak about in the book, even though it was a shock to me to find myself in palliative care unexpectedly, I still, that knowledge of growing up on the farm and knowing what a dead body looks like helped me not,

helped it not be too weird. Yeah. Yeah. It's really fascinating. helped it not be too weird. Yeah. Yeah. It's really fascinating. Would you say maybe because of that experience and your life experience that like, how, how do you see death? Do you, do you fear your own death? So for me, I don't have a fear of death at all, not the physical and not the after, because I've seen enough people in a state of joy right at the moment before they've died.

And not a lot, but enough to realise there's something to return to. There was such a state of recognition. Tell us about that. Go on. That is so fascinating to me. So you are sitting with them in their final moments. Yes, yeah. And what have you seen? Well, say in the case of Stella, so she had been in a coma for a couple of days and all her feet and hands had gone cold. You know, the organs aren't reaching

the extremities so well. And so when they, so this is what my palliative, the palliative doctor who used to come in and check on the patients explained to me that the organs aren't pumping to the extremities anymore. They're closing down. So you sort of know, I mean, the fact that she was in a coma was enough of knowledge, enough to indicate she was close to the end. And she'd been in a coma for a couple of days. And so I'd called the family in and her husband was sitting on one side of her holding her hand. Her son was sitting on the other side holding her hand.

I was sitting down the other end holding her foot, just wanting to sort of be there and let her know that she was there and looked after and loved. And she just opened her eyes and looked up at where the wall joins the ceiling up at the cornice up there. And she's just looked up and opened her eyes and, like, this is after a couple of days of complete coma, and she's just opened her eyes and gone, oh! And it was just bliss and recognition and joy, just absolute joy.

And this elation on her face and her son and husband are looking at me and I'm looking at her and then she's just sort of like done that and then she's gone, and her eyes rolled back and she was gone and she was gone and she was gone. And I just, like it was really, it was life-changing for me. In that moment though, she was only the second person I'd ever looked after. So then the family is saying, is she gone, is she gone? And I'm trying to feel her pulse because like I wasn't even a nurse.

I'd just gone in as a companion and ended up in palliative care. And so I'm trying to feel her pulse, but my heart is just jumping out my chest. And I don't know if I can feel her pulse or whether that's my heart beating or whatever. And then I just got a really clear feeling from her, you know, that she's gone. And I just said, yeah, yeah, she's gone. And I just, oh, I still remember her husband just like running out of the room and just sobbing and, you know, he was like in his 70s at the time and they'd been married since their 20s. And I can still hear that raw grief.

But for me personally, that helped me see, and I did see other similar things, not as glorious as that, but where people just found this beauty in their death. And so that just helped me enormously. So I'm not scared of the transition of death. I'm not scared. I have enough faith and I've witnessed those sort of things to not be scared beyond that. What I would be more scared of, and I make sure that I don't have to be is not facing the fact that I'm going to die and living with the regret

of not having honoured whatever my dreams are or at least given them a go. Even if I don't see all of them realised or life changes direction, at least I can die knowing that I've given them a go. I would be more scared of that, of delaying my dreams and of not honouring it when I've witnessed the anguish and pain of regret. And I mean, they just sound like words, but when you've witnessed, this is anguish, like full on heartache, when you've witnessed that repeatedly then and then you don't find the guts to follow your dreams well you know you you'd have some pretty big self-accounting to do at the end

so for me that would be a bigger fear than the actual death what does the word regret mean to you? Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health and together we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life.

And I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last. Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour. I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal The journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change Now journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision making And reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression

It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn new behaviours into long-term habits and improve our relationships. There are of course many different ways to journal and as with most things it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three question journal. In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them and how much more in control of

their lives they now feel. Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast. But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app. Self-judgment, because all of us make mistakes. That's part of, that's how we learn. We learn by our mistakes and it's part of the imperfection of being human. And so, you know, none of us are going to go through life without making mistakes, unless we don't live a life, unless we don't live, we just stay on the lounge and watch Netflix and we don't have a go at honouring our dreams. And

then, well, there's a mistake in itself. But if we're actually going to have a go at living our dreams and finding, and when I say living the dreams, it all sounds, you know, very trendy and cliched, but it's different for everyone. It could just mean living a slower life, living a simpler life. It might be traveling the world first class, but it may just be to be more present with your child or to be a happier person or to learn an instrument in old age, whatever. But, you know, you're going to make mistakes if you're going to grow and try and become the best person you want to be or as close to that as possible. But whether a mistake turns into a regret is really only our

opinion on it. That's all it is. It's us beating ourselves up for years and years and years over a mistake. And all of us have made mistakes. We can all look back and cringe over stuff we've done. I'm sure I certainly can. But it's only self-judgment. And so if we can have a bit of compassion for our younger selves, then they're just mistakes. They're not regrets. Yeah. I really appreciate you sharing that perspective. Ever since I had Dan Pink on this podcast after he wrote a book on regrets, maybe a year or two ago, it really caused me to think deeply about what regret is. Because I can hand on heart, sit opposite you today in 2023 and say, I don't have any regrets.

That does not mean I haven't made any mistakes. And first of all, I think Dan's book is really, really great. So I think we were both saying the same thing in different ways. And in Dan's book, he talks about regret being human. It's the most human thing there is. It's what makes us human or one of the things that makes us human. I don't quite see it like that. I think this whole piece of compassion and judgment plays into regret. So if you are deeply compassionate for yourself and you believe that you are always doing the best you can based upon your experience, based upon what you know, then I actually feel there's kind of no room for regrets. Because if I regret, let's say something in my

twenties I did, and there's many things I hope if I was in that position again now, knowing what I know now, I would act differently. But back then I didn't know, right? So beating myself up for a decision that I may have made in the past, in many ways, it's the height of uncompassionate behavior to yourself. You're kind of believing that you should have been this perfect person who should have known the wisdom that you've now gleamed 20 years on, which is kind of ridiculous. But if I believe no, actually, you know what? You genuinely did do the best that you could. With hindsight, you could have made a different decision. Okay, next time something like that presents itself to me in my life, I'll try and make a different decision. It's a different flavor. And I guess,

you know, does it really matter? No, you know, but people can perceive regret any way that they want, I guess. But that's why I was so fascinated because I think all your books are great. I think the top five regrets of the diet, I can see why it has changed so many lives and sold as many copies as it has, because it kind of gets to the heart of what it means to live a meaningful and contented life, doesn't it? Yes. Yeah, it does. And we're allowed to do that. Yeah. Yeah. We just have to give ourselves permission and break through the resistance, like have the courage to break through the resistance and, yeah, give ourselves permission.

You used the word courage there. And when I was writing out the regrets this morning in this book, which I always just write down some ideas before I have a guess. It's a way of imprinting them into my brain. I noticed something that I hadn't noticed when reading, and that was this. Two of the regrets, the way you've written them down at least, the word courage in them okay i wish i had the courage to live my life not the life others expected of me and i wish i'd had the courage to express my feelings so the obvious question is what does the word courage mean I think it just, for me, it means breaking through the resistance. And any fear is just resistance to either what is or what could be. And so to me, courage is that force that can say,

I'm scared but I'm still going to do this. It's like the dismantling of the walls that stop us doing things. And what stops us from having courage? Being scared of our potential, being scared of receiving, being as amazing as we can be. Yeah. So, and that can be being scared of what other people think of us. It can be scared of failing, which really just comes down to what other people think of us. It can be scared of wasting time, trying for something and it not landing how we think but we're still going to

grow through that and we're still going to become a better person as a result of of anything like that so yeah i mean it's it's it's an abyss there's just one layer after another after another wasting time you just mentioned again something i've been thinking about a lot recently is, is it possible to waste time? Because again, the term wasting time is a negative judgment, right? Ultimately, we spend time. The way we spend time has consequences. Like whether you call it a waste or not depends on, I guess it depends on how you look at life because you could make the case. And I guess I haven't fully got clear on my thoughts yet. So I'm kind of working it out as

we go here. But I kind of feel it is possible to look at life in a way where you never waste time, where actually any time that you spend on anything is a learning opportunity. If, for example, you do something that you could consider wasting time, you could go, no, actually I've learned that when I spend two hours scrolling social media mindlessly, I don't feel great afterwards. Because if you say wasting time, it's almost like a self-judgment. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, I do. And I think that the more present and mindful we become, the more we're probably likely to have that judgment. Because we can look back to our youth and think,

oh, I was just stumbling along and didn't know what I was doing or I could have achieved this or that in my youth that I didn't. And so that can feel like you've wasted years and everything else. But if you're experiencing life and it's brought you to this point where you can be discerning enough to recognise that, then you're right, it's not a waste of time. There's an Aussie singer-songwriter, he's one of the country's favourite singer-songwriters, Paul Kelly, and he's got a song that says, I've wasted, I think it's I've wasted time

or whatever, but the line in it is, I've wasted time, now time is wasting me. And, you know, he's an older man now. And I really love that sort of play on words. But that aside, I just had to drop that in because it is a really great way to put it. But I do think that if we're kind enough to ourselves, we can realise it's all a part of the fabric of our life. And as long as we can look back with kindness for our younger selves, and like you said, if you could go back, you'd hope that you'd do things differently again, but we're all doing the best as who we can in the moment. And if we're not, that's where we've got the power. If we're sort of thinking,

okay, I'm probably capable of a little bit more than this, but I'm too lazy or scared to have a go, then maybe, you know, it's time to motivate yourself and say, I may not have time to do this later. I won't have time to do this later. I've got to get on with it now. There's never a perfect time to start anything other than right now. Yeah. This idea of doing your best. I once heard you say in an interview, if you have done your best, there's no need for regrets. That's right. Yeah. Which is a really beautiful way to look at it. I think in that same interview, you said courage is always rewarded, but not in the way we expect. Right. So you've expanded on what you mean by courage.

Yes. But I wonder if you could just speak to that, you know, how can it be rewarded in unexpected ways? Sure. Okay. So say you're going for a dream and you've had to find so much courage. Say that example of the doctor who's overworking, has the big mortgage, everything else. And so that person decides I'm going to change direction. And I probably shouldn't use such a specific example. It's for anyone. So you want to change direction. And so you have the courage, you've made these significant changes, you've gone out on a leap of faith. You've taken risks and everything else. And you haven't landed where you thought you'd land.

But what you've learned about yourself in that process is the reward in itself because it sets you up for the next step. And so there's plenty of times we think we want one thing and we think it's going to look a certain way, but it's the feeling we want. It's not necessarily the physical reality of what we're dreaming of. It's the feeling that we're aiming for. And so the reward may not be the picture perfect result that we thought we were working hard towards. It will be the freedom we've gifted ourself or the permission that set us free from other things that have been holding us back or weighing us down.

So courage is rewarded and that's not to say if you go in a different direction and the physical doesn't turn out, it's not to say that something wonderful is not waiting for you. It may just look slightly different to what you thought. But the other reward is how you get to know yourself. And the pride in having a go just makes you have so much more self-respect, but also so much self-kindness because you've faced all these fears and you've learned to love yourself through that and still have a go. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Or the job you go for

that you don't get, but then it's actually a good thing because had you got it, you wouldn't have got the job that then you got two months later, which actually is nourishing you. Yes. Yeah. And didn't look anything like what you thought it was going to look like. It's like me as an author, instead of a singer songwriter, I was like, I tried so hard to get going as a singer songwriter. I hated going to gigs at 10 o'clock at night, playing in pubs. I hated being on stage, like, you know, trying to get over my nerves and everything else. But that, those years set me up to be a speaker and I can walk onto a stage now and not the slightest nerves, just walk out, connect with the audience, have a great time, you know, give them an empowering session, whatever, and enjoy

every minute of it. But if someone had have said, oh, you're doing this so you can become a speaker and an author, I'd just be like, no, I'm going to be a singer songwriter. No way, I'm going to be a singer songwriter. And so when I didn't make it as a singer-songwriter, that led to me trying to, setting up the thing in the jail so I could earn money from my music, the songwriting program, which led me to writing an article, which led me to writing the next article, which led me to becoming an author and a speaker. So I would never have consciously chosen that. I'd have been like, I'm not qualified in writing. I hate being on stage, da-da-da-da-da. Now I love speaking.

I've written books and made a living out of it for over a decade. Yeah. Yeah. You don't know. Have a trust in life. Yes. Life will unfold the way it's meant to unfold. Yeah, and let yourself be surprised.

You know, that was advice given to me in my 20s. Let yourself be surprised. Yeah. As Johnny Wilkinson, the rugby player, once said to me on the show, he said, make friends with the unknown. Yes, that's lovely. Which again is, I think, a beautiful sentiment

that speaks to the same kind of philosophy. But it's interesting to me that you've written these five powerful regrets of the dying. Each one of them, I think, can help us reflect on our own lives and encourage us to make some maybe gentle changes that over time can become bigger changes. I also know, though, that not everyone you cared for in their dying days had regrets are you able to articulate what the difference was in people who did have regrets at the end of their life compared to those who didn't sure yep i i noticed three things and i didn't realise at the time they were just,

but there were three common things. And one was their relationship with their family. If they had good communication with their family, then they weren't in that category of regrets. I think just the support of family perhaps helped them have a go at their life or they were content in the life. Another was humour, that they could laugh at their mistakes, that they could laugh at the winding road that life can become without taking it on too heavily. And the other was faith, that they just trusted there was a,

in the bigger picture, that everything was fine the way they'd lived and they had a faith to go home to sort of thing. Do you mean religious faith? Yes, yeah. And so I'm not saying that every person who had faith didn't have regrets. There were plenty of people that had regrets that had a religious faith. But of those who didn't have regrets, they believed in something larger and not always religious but a spiritual belief

and humour and family connection. Yeah. Which is interesting. Like, you know, it's a whole. So relationships, humour and a belief in something greater than themselves yes yeah it's really interesting to me because I always wonder about how we can tackle issues like are there ways we can focus on particular ones, or can we still address those issues by focusing on something else? So I wonder if instead of focusing on those five regrets, which I think would help

anyone anyway, but as a thought experiment, if you didn't look at those five regrets and instead you looked at what are the three qualities that people who have a regret-free life exhibit, I find it really interesting to go, okay, number one, I need to focus on my relationships. How many times do we need to hear that relationships are what make up life? Yes. You know, whether it's Robert Waldinger from the Harvard study of happiness, whoever, 85 years, they say the number one factor for health and happiness is the quality of your relationships, right? So we can see that from scientific studies, we can also feel it intuitively ourselves. We kind of know, you don't

almost need the science to teach us that, right? So that makes sense. Humor. I guess that's not what I thought about, but that's really interesting to hear that that's a commonality you found. Why do you think that is? Well, they just had a different approach to life. So they didn't take life as seriously. And so if you're not taking life so seriously, then you're not judging yourself so harshly either. Got it. So that makes sense. So we can focus on bringing that into our life. And I think that last one, a belief in something greater than yourself. I mean, again, how many times do we need to hear that? It can be for some people through religion, for other people through spirituality.

For some people, it's through nature. It's through nature. That's right. You know, when this amazing professor in America called Dacher Keltner came on the show about six months ago, and he wrote a book on awe and the eight different ways that humans can experience awe. And one of them is nature, right? And he talks about the power of awe and what it does to us. But I guess that kind of speaks to point three and what we're talking about is

a belief in something greater than yourself. Interestingly enough, although when many of us think of awe, we think of nature, he also shared in a different chapter that birth and death are also human experiences where we really feel all i love that yeah and i can understand that too i mean we can understand it from from birth but from death as well because how incredible that the spirit can be extracted from a physical body and leave that body behind and it is an extraction.

And, you know, that one minute there can be a life force inside this collection of cells and the next minute it's just a vessel an empty vessel like that in itself is absolutely worthy of all yeah yeah and i love the fact that for i i love the fact that despite our supposed evolution as humans, but we still can't explain it. No. I love it. Thank goodness. Thank goodness.

I don't want us to be able to explain that scientifically. I love the fact that there's a mystery there. It's like, I don't know, I think it adds to the magic of life. Yeah, and that in itself becomes worthy of awe, you know, that it's just, it's too big and beautiful and magnificent to be able to articulate into little words into language do you feel that everyone would benefit from spending time with people who are dying? Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. We would, as a culture, as individuals, as a species, everything,

we would be so much more on track if we were all around dying people more or if we at least had some direct exposure to it more regularly. And I'm not saying everyone needs to go into eight years of palliative care, but rather than wait until your aging parents die, which is when most people are subjected to death or a lot of people are subjected to death for the first time, if we could all do, you know, a week a year or a few days a year or something like that and actually witness a death, then I really believe it would, it's such a great question, Rangan, that I just think it would totally change the direction of humanity

because we would let go of all the nonsense of all that empty achieving and um and prioritize what's truly important and then we would work as a team rather than against each other i mean even this idea of intergenerational connections i think speaks to that And what I mean by that is in the era of nuclear families and in the era that we live in now of incredible loneliness and isolation, I think there's something incredibly special about transgenerational communities, friendships, you know, kids spending time with their grandparents and their great grandparents, you know, holidaying together, all of you, where you're experiencing

people at different stages in their life. It may not be on their deathbed necessarily, but I think even that gives a richer perspective to life that we often lose when we're just with one generation. I agree. Yeah, I agree. And the intergenerational doesn't necessarily need to be family either. It could be neighbors or some sort of community. And like my daughter at the moment, she's with her grandmother and they're shocking together. There's so much mischief and sugar and stuff that I just, you know, but I've just got to let it go. And, you know, they're both so excited to be hanging out together while I'm away.

And my grandmother had such a beautiful influence on me as well. And I just, we're not meant to do it just singular like that. Really not. No. Something I've been thinking about, Bronnie, about your experiences is to do with mental faculties. So my understanding is that most of your experience with dying people was with people who did not have Alzheimer's. Most of your experience with dying people was with people who did not have Alzheimer's. So it was with people who were able to clearly articulate to you the things that they wish they had done differently. First of all, am I right in that assumption? Most of them. Occasionally,

if there were no shifts, I would take on like a shift in a nursing home, or I did have one woman who had Alzheimer's at home. But yeah, 90% of the people I looked after were exactly that, they could converse. Because I think that gives you one perspective. One of the things that many people now are experiencing is family members or parents with Alzheimer's. So they're dying, or parents with Alzheimer's.

So they're dying, but they're not necessarily getting the wisdom from them that you received. They're not getting the life philosophy at the end because some of the mind or some of the personality that we have known and associated with that person is no longer there. So I guess I'm really interested in how your experience might help someone. If there's someone listening who is in that situation right now,

let's say their mum or their dad has Alzheimer's and they're not the person they used to be, is there anything in your experience do you think that could help them? Firstly, I just, my heart aches for them because that's, that's almost worse than losing them suddenly to actually watch the demise of someone you love. But in my experience, I actually had a patient who I was looking after and she was all mumble jumble, you know, and the words don't make sense at all. They're not even words anymore. They're like syllables from one word matched with the syllable of another.

And she hadn't been coherent at all for well over a month that I'd been working with her. And then just one day I was with her and I used to always put lotion on my patient's hands and give them foot and feet massage and brush their hair and that sort of thing and one day I was walking her back to the bed and she had a bed that had the walls up so she couldn't get out like she was pretty much locked in the bed in the hospital bed at home and we were getting her back I was getting her back from the shower and we were walking along and I had some cream that I was going to do her feet and I dropped it

and I bent down and I sort of laughed and said, oh, hang on a sec, hang on, and I've picked it up again. And she just looked at me as clear as you and I and just said, I think you're lovely. And I just said, I think you're lovely too. And she gave me a hug. And then I said, well, shall we get you back to bed? And within two seconds, she's blah, blah, blah, back to the Alzheimer's language. So I guess what I would say to anyone is that even if they can't express themselves in a clear, coherent way and maybe they can't always receive what

you're saying, don't stop saying it because there could be a moment of clarity that they actually hear you say, I love you, or they're very present with you, even if they can't articulate it. They're very present with you even if they can't articulate it. And so don't stop loving them and don't stop communicating with them just because they can't reply. Yeah, that's beautiful advice. And it also I think speaks to how little we really know about the mind and what it is that makes us who we are.

Like, are they still the same person? Well, to the outside, maybe not, but maybe in their own experience, they are. Who knows? We don't know that. It's an endless, fascinating field. It isn't. Yeah.

I don't want to speak too much about my mum because I don't feel it's my place to say. But one thing I will say is that this year has probably been the most difficult year I've had in over decades because mum was admitted to hospital on Christmas Day night last year. She was in for three weeks and, you know, she's back at home, but she's not the same person that she used to be. And I found it really hard, particularly in the early part of this year. I would even go as far to say it's only in the last two or three weeks that I feel

a degree of acceptance and peace with the new normal. But I've been asking myself these questions a lot. You know, what is it that makes up mum? You know, is the fact that she maybe can't articulate herself in the way that she used to, does that make her any less? Does that make her different? And I think half the time it's our own issues we have to get over. And I say that with compassion because it's hard. You know, I went through all kinds of stuff. Will I ever have a conversation with mum again in the same way that I used to? And then some days, you know, I've made some changes. There's some really quite remarkable improvements, but maybe that's for another podcast. But, you know, Wimbledon's on at the moment and mum is a mega

tennis fan and so on Saturday I just went around and she wasn't talking that much she was actually a little bit to be fair but nothing like she used to yes yeah I would have sat there when I held her hand and we were watching a game together. And I just don't know. How can I know what impact that is or is not having on her? But I think it speaks to what you're saying. It's kind of like, don't stop loving them. Yeah, don't write them off. Don't write them off.

Yeah, yeah. While you're saying that, I also thought about, do you know the book My Stroke of Insight by Jill Balty Taylor? She was a brain, some sort of brain specialist and she had a stroke and she said her mum was coming in to visit her and she didn't know everything that was going on at the time. She's since become a highly creative woman. She's gone from science into creativity. But she said she remembers that everyone was getting excited

about her mum coming in to visit her in hospital. And she also gives advice, you know, like close the blinds and how oversensitive people are in that situation. But in terms of her personal experience, when everyone was getting excited, she didn't know who this person was in that moment, she now does, and she didn't know what the excitement was, but she knew when her mother arrived that she was loved and she felt really safe and loved by this person. And she couldn't conceptualise that that was her mother at the time, but she knew that she was loved and it left her feeling really safe when

everything else was overstimulating while she was sort of finding her new way forward. And just that feeling of everyone being excited made her happy and she just sort of thought, okay, this is, and all the energy sort of shifted like this is lovely. And then the love she felt from her mum carried her through to come out the other side. Wow. I think about what, you know, what you just said earlier as well, Rangan,

that sometimes it's about our own perception of it all and what we have to change to adapt to those changes. And it is what it is right now. Yeah. It's a part of life. Yes. Right? Yeah.

And what's that phrase, you know, when you can't change a situation, you're forced to change yourself. Yes. Or something like that. Or your perspective on it. Or your perspective, yeah. And again, just referencing that Dhaka Kelner conversation and this kind of idea that we don't have death front and center in a way that possibly we should, possibly if we were all exposed to death a bit more, that we'd realize this is a part of life.

possibly if we were all exposed to death a bit more, that we'd realize this is a part of life. And actually, in Dacca's book, he shared the Japanese concept of wabi-sabi, which is this idea that all living creatures, living things, go through a five-stage process. Creation, birth, Creation, birth, growth, decay, death. And I was reading that in February of this year. So things were very, very raw for me. But I got to say, reading that helped me. Yes. Because there was a brutality.

There was a brutal honesty to it. It's like, oh, decay. Yeah. Mum's body and brain is starting to decay. And so you could start accepting the changes. Yeah. And it's slightly counterintuitive because you're like, oh man, that's too much. But I actually found it really helpful. I thought by putting words to what this is, I was like, yeah, mom's had creation, birth, growth. Now she's on the final path of decay before at some point it will be death. Doesn't mean I find it easy.

No, but it helps you. But it has helped. Intellectualize it a little bit. Intellectualize it. Yeah. I mean, Bronnie, listen, there are just so many concepts that come up from your work. We could speak for five hours. I know you've flown to the UK for just a few days. I don't know how you're dealing with jet lag given that you come from Australia. Yeah.

How are you doing with your jet lag? Oh, not too bad. I'm just going to bed a bit earlier and still waking, you know, about five, whereas I normally would wake about six. But I'm okay. You're okay. Australians have a different concept of distance because towns are a long way away.

And, you know, like for me, I think, oh, yeah, mum lives just down the road. It's an hour and a half drive down the road. And we'll drive down just for lunch some days and come back. And so I won't say I'm invincible, but, yeah, I mean, the second leg is only from Dubai to England. So that's like six hours after a 14-hour first leg. So it's like, ah.

It's all relative, isn't it? Yeah, it's like, ah, I'm fine. I survived that one. I'll be right. So, yeah, I'm doing okay. Good. And I do live very gently. I very much honour my limits and without using them as an excuse

for laziness or anything like that. But knowing that, okay, if I'm going to show up well, I have to have a good night's sleep or I have to not overload my days and that sort of thing. I've learned to be very good at honoring limits. Yeah. The intention at the start was to unpick each one of those five regrets and we got waylaid. Maybe it's my fault, but that's the way these conversations go. I kind of feel though, we pretty much covered them all through our wandering conversation. And of course, the books there where people can read about them in detail and the various people you sat with and the things you learned it's an incredible book i can see why it's been so impactful and continues to do so

this podcast is called feel better live more when we feel better in ourselves we get more out of our lives now of course when we can appreciate, like really appreciate the idea that we're going to die, arguably that's the most important thing we can do to help us be present and get the most out of our life. So right at the end, Bronnie, I always love to leave a few actionable ideas that people can think about. Maybe they can't apply them straight away, but at least if it helps them change their perspective a little bit

and just encourages them to reflect on maybe there's a different way of doing things. I wonder right at the end then, you know, do you have any final words of wisdom for people who may feel a bit stuck and a bit lost? Yeah, I would just say that they're allowed to be happy, that they deserve their own permission to be happy and more than anything to realise that they are going to die, that you are going to die and every single day is a gift. There's people that can't even get outside today, they're not well enough and they don't

even get fresh air. So if you can find gratitude in whatever is going on, find some sort of gratitude in your life right now, then you're already on your way to living a regret-free life. Bronnie, you're doing incredible work. Thank you for coming on the podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure, Rangan. Thank you. Really hope you enjoyed that conversation.

Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life. And also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else. Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday Five. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I'd be consuming, and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect. And I have to say in a world of endless emails, it really is delightful that

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