Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - What Near Death Experiences Can Teach Us About Living a Life of Meaning and Purpose: An Incredible Life Story with Anita Moorjani #504

Episode Date: December 18, 2024

What happens when we face death - and return to tell the tale? Today’s guest takes us on an extraordinary journey from advanced cancer to complete recovery, challenging our understanding of both healing and human consciousness. Anita Moorjani is the New York Times best-selling author of Dying to Be Me: My Journey From Cancer, To Near Death, To True Healing and travels the world speaking to sold-out audiences who want to learn about her journey and experiences of embracing change, the power of healing, and the quest to live a full and unlimited life.  Anita’s story is an extraordinary one. After a 4-year battle with cancer, she fell into a coma and was given days to live. As her doctors gathered to revive her, she had a near-death experience (NDE) where she believes she crossed over to the other side and when she regained consciousness, her cancer began to heal. To the amazement of her doctors, she was free of countless tumours and cancer indicators within weeks. In this powerful conversation, Anita explains how living fearlessly, cultivating self-love, and embracing joy became her pathway to healing. We discuss how people-pleasing, lack of self-worth, and suppressing our authentic selves can negatively impact our wellbeing. And, we also explore her wonderful concept of "energy equity" - a practical framework for understanding how our daily choices either nurture our energy or deplete it. As a medical doctor, I found our discussion about the limitations of current medical knowledge particularly fascinating. We explore how cases like Anita's invite us to expand our understanding of healing and human potential. This conversation goes beyond an extraordinary medical case. It offers practical wisdom for anyone seeking to live more authentically and create positive change in their lives. You may be sceptical - something Anita and I talk about - but I urge you to listen with an open mind. This episode challenges our assumptions about healing while offering hope for a more fulfilled life.  Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/feelbetterlivemore. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com. Thanks to our sponsors: https://drinkag1.com/livemore http://www.vivobarefoot.com/livemore https://thriva.co https://www.essilor.com Show notes https://drchatterjee.com/504   DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

We all live in two worlds, but we don't realize it. And the two worlds are the world of love and the world of fear. Don't fear failing, because the fear of failing keeps most people stuck and locked. People often say, but fear keeps you safe. I actually think fear keeps you shackled, love keeps you safe. Hey guys, how you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee and this is my podcast, Feel Better, Live More. What happens when we come face to face with death, but then return to tell the tale?

death, but then return to tell the tale. Today's guest takes us on an extraordinary journey from a terminal cancer diagnosis to complete recovery, challenging our understanding of both healing and human consciousness. Anita Moorjani is the New York Times bestselling author of Dying to Be Me, My Journey from Cancer to Near Death to True Healing. And she travels the world speaking to sold out audiences who want to learn about her journey and experiences of embrace and change, the power of healing and the quest to live a full and unlimited life. Anita's story is quite extraordinary. After a four-year battle with cancer, she fell into a coma and was given days to live. As her doctors gathered to revive her, she had a near-death experience where she believes she crossed over to the other side.

she crossed over to the other side. And when she finally regained her consciousness, she made a stunning recovery. Now, I want to acknowledge that some of you may well be skeptical about a story such as Anita's, but I would really encourage you to listen with an open mind. There is a growing body of research now on near-death experiences As there have been so many reported cases around the world Even if you choose to not believe Anita's interpretation of events The simple truth is that we can all learn something very powerful about our own lives By hearing Anita's incredible story. In our conversation, Anita explains how living fearlessly, cultivating self-love and embracing joy became her pathway to healing. We discuss how people-pleasing, a lack of self-worth and suppressing our authentic selves can negatively impact our well-being. And we also

explore her wonderful concept of energy equity, a practical framework for understanding how our daily choices either nurture our energy or deplete it. As a medical doctor, I found our discussion about the limitations of current medical knowledge particularly fascinating, and we explore how cases like Anita's invite us to expand our understanding of healing and human potential. This conversation, I think, is pretty special and goes far beyond just being an extraordinary medical case, I think it provides fascinating insights into the mind-body connection, the role of emotional and spiritual well-being in physical health, and offers profound practical wisdom for anyone seeking

to create positive change and live more authentically. of change and live more authentically. You have an incredibly powerful story. You have been through a life experience that most of us never get the chance to go through. And that experience has taught you some really key lessons. And where I wanted to start this conversation, we will hear about that experience shortly. But one of the lessons that you have learned is that it's really important to live our life fearlessly. Yes. What does that mean? So to me, living fearlessly really means being fearlessly yourself, being yourself fearlessly, because usually most people's biggest fears, it's not about the bungee jumping or the parachuting.

It's about exposing who they are. It's about being authentic because we are a culture who are really afraid of being shamed. We're really afraid of not meeting other people's expectations and people feeling disappointed in us. And we spend our lives trying to gain approval from everybody around us. That's what we do. We dance for the critics. We want everybody's approval. So living your life fearlessly means taking your own power back and living the life

that you were meant to live for you not because you're trying to please everyone around you I mean that's really powerful I can't imagine there's anyone who just heard what you said and didn't on some level connect with that. I think that's how universal that message is, right? We do want to fit in. We do want other people to like us. But if we overly worry about that, it can come at a huge cost, can't it? Huge costs.

And I paid the price for it. I really did. Because I spent my entire life before getting cancer, trying to please other people and trying to win other people's approval. And I couldn't do anything if anybody was disappointed in me. And it never occurred to me that what I thought mattered. In your TEDx talk, which I think was a few years ago now, it's still just as powerful actually as when you released it. You said that many of us are brought up in a culture of fear. Yes.

What does that mean? of fear. Yes. What does that mean? It means that we are taught through fear instead of through love. So to me, fear and love are the two opposites, the polar opposites. And when I was in that near death stage, which of course we'll talk about later, I felt like I was like enveloped in this sea of love. And I understood for the first time what unconditional love meant. And I understood for the first time that I am loved. And I never knew that. I'd never felt it in my entire life. And it's ironic. I didn't feel it in my life and I felt it in death. But here is where we need that. So when I came back into this realm, back into my body, it felt like I lived in two worlds. We all live in two worlds, but we don't realize it. And the two worlds are the world of love and the world of fear. And the world of fear is what we are being

fed right now, conditioned. It's like there is a fear of failing. For example, if you take every system we have, you take the medical system, it's more about the fear of illness than the promotion of health and well-being. And if you take the education system, it's more about the fear of illness than the promotion of health and well-being. And if you take the education system, it's more about the fear of failing than it is about being passionate about studying and work. And this is how we seem to operate across the board. Yeah, I love that. It really echoes so many of the things that I've been reflecting on over the past few years. And so a lot of my career has been about trying to help people change their behaviors for the better. What I realized a few years ago is that it's not necessarily the behavior that's the most important thing.

It's the energy behind that behavior. Yes. Right, and I came to the conclusion a few years ago that everything we do in life either comes from a place of love or a place of fear. So it's really interesting to hear you share your realization from your powerful life experience when you nearly died. But I've also realized, you know, we're having this conversation, New Year is around the

corner. And I think one of the reasons that most New Year's resolutions fail is because we don't feel good enough in who we are. So we try and shame ourselves. We try and, you know, guilt or not feeling good enough is the underlying energy behind our New Year's resolutions. But if it was love that I am enough, I'm already enough. And so what can I do to actually enhance my life or live in harmony with that love? I think you're going to get two very different outcomes. that love, I think you're going to get two very different outcomes. Absolutely. In fact, can I share something with you? So before I was even diagnosed with cancer, I used to live a very healthy life. I still do, but there's a difference. So I watched two people close to me, the same age as me, get cancer. And I decided I was not going to be one of the statistics of people that get cancer. You know, you always hear now like one in three people are going to get cancer. So I decided I'm not going to be one of those people. So I started eating really healthy, only organic. I was green juicing every morning. I was having fresh wheatgrass shots and I was taking all the

anti-cancer, antioxidant supplements. I was really, really diligent with eating all the right things. And guess what? I got diagnosed with cancer. And it was only when I crossed over, when I had the near-death experience, did I understand that everything I was doing, I was doing out of a fear of cancer, not from a place of love of myself and love of my body and love of my life. So today I still am pretty, I'm pretty conscious of my lifestyle. I do choose my foods carefully, but I do treat myself sometimes too. But I do, I eat well, but it comes from a place of love. I love my body. I love my life. I love what I do. And I want to live really long so that I can keep doing it.

Yeah. As a doctor, hearing that is so interesting. This idea that you were doing everything you could from what you knew about trying to look after yourself. And I guess this is where my thought patterns have moved over the last few years is that yes, those physical health behaviors of course are important what we eat how much we move yes how much we sleep yes they are but our thoughts our beliefs our emotions our ability to be ourself yes or not be ourself, I think there's pretty good evidence to say they are equally as important,

if not arguably more important in some cases. Yes, I would almost say more important because that becomes the driving force behind the positive behavior towards your lifestyle. So it becomes, instead of doing all the so-called good things out of fear or out of shame, it's all done with this feeling of passion and joy. Yeah. Now, Anita, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you on my podcast is, firstly, is, firstly, I'm incredibly fascinated by what you went through. But secondly, I believe that the life lessons you learned through that experience have a huge amount of value for all of us, right? It's kind of twofold. And so I think life lesson number one that you've gone through

already is that it's important to live life fearlessly. I think we'll keep revisiting that throughout the conversation, but perhaps you could explain what is this powerful life experience we keep talking about. Let's go through it. You've hinted already at some elements that you were diagnosed with cancer but perhaps the best way to do it might be can you paint a picture for me of your life before that diagnosis and then take the story forward from there in whichever way you'd like to okay thank you so when I was diagnosed I was 42 okay but if you go back before, so of course, I was eating extremely healthy at that time because I was watching one of my dearest friends go through cancer and my husband's brother-in-law. But prior to that, I've always grown up living a

life, a very fear-based life, fear of disapproval. I grew up, my parents are Indian, and I grew up with a lot of gender disparity. And so in my culture, at the time I was growing up in my community, of course, this is not all Indian people, but within my community, let's say men were treated differently from women. They were offered different values. That impacted me quite a bit. And I used to rebel against that, but it really did make me feel that I was inferior just for being a woman. Wow. with my dad. I was very close to my mom. She was wonderful. It was always as though she was trying to make up for the lack of love I was getting from my dad. And basically, my dad treated me as though he was disappointed I was a girl. And the biggest thing he wanted for me was to get married. And he felt that, for example, I wanted to have a higher education.

I wanted to get a job. I wanted to have a career. I wanted to earn my own money so I could be independent. But my dad's beliefs were that I had to stay at home until I got married and then I would be my husband's responsibility. And he didn't want me working or traveling or having a higher education because it would be harder to get me married, according to him. And he felt that whether I work or not would be up to my husband, not up to me. Can I just interject there?

Yeah. What sort of, if you don't mind sharing, where did you grow up and what kind of time period are we talking here? Okay, so I grew up in Hong Kong. Okay. And this was late 70s into the 80s. Okay, great. So, and I was immersed in British culture, British pop culture, because I went to a British school where everybody was British. But then I have Indian parents and my

dad who wants me to be groomed for an arranged marriage. And so he's of course talking to friends about their sons. And I said, I want to choose my own partner, my own husband. And, you know, he didn't like that. He said, well, you're not marrying anyone outside the community. you know, he didn't like that. He said, well, you're not marrying anyone outside the community. But I didn't, you know, relate to this way of thinking where your parents choose your spouse, because that wasn't happening to any of my friends, because they were mostly British friends. But so growing up in under those circumstances, I always felt I was a disappointment to my dad. I always felt I never got his approval and I never felt he loved me just because I was a girl. So that set me up for a life of always trying to win people's approval.

And I was someone who was quite shy. people's approval. And I was someone who was quite shy. And no way would I have imagined my life unfolding the way it did, you know, where today I'm like speaking at events. I would never have imagined me on stage or being a published author, any of that. I was somebody who was shy and quite meek and timid. And anyway, I met a wonderful man, husband, my husband, Danny, who's an amazing person. But I married him, met and married him after my father passed away. So my dad had passed and I met Danny, who turned out to be Indian because I had told my parents I may or may not marry an Indian person. I'm just going to marry someone I love. And so Danny's been an amazing husband. And after we got married, in fact, it was not long, we'd been married maybe

six years. And I, my best friend had cancer. She got diagnosed. And it was very scary for me to see what she was going through. And so as I watched what she was going through, I kind of thought, wow, I never want that to happen to me. And I started to develop this incredible fear of cancer. And because of her, I started to research everything that causes cancer because I wanted to help her. I was there for her. I would go to the hospital with her. I would help her with her kids. And as I was researching and as I was seeing, not just what the cancer was doing to her, but it looked to me like the treatments weren't helping her. She was deteriorating. And so I started to read up about everything natural that's anti-cancer, that heals cancer.

And even though I wasn't sick, I started to follow all these natural diets, anti-cancer diets. And I was particularly hard on myself. It was as though I was trying to heal cancer in my own body. That's how strict I was. That's how scared I was about getting cancer. Because you could see your friends with cancer. And she was deteriorating. And it was very scary and emotional for me to watch what she was going through and watch her family. And no matter what she did in terms of mainstream Western modern medicine, her family were taking her to have like the best treatments that money can buy in the best hospitals. And yet all I saw was that she was deteriorating. And that scared me. I thought, wow, there is no cure for this. There's no cure. So I

never want to get this. So I better work even harder and do more things so I never get it. Yes, exactly. So I was driven by this fear of cancer. And lo and behold, I found a lump on my neck, like here, just between my collarbone and my shoulder. And there was a lump there and it was a swollen lymph gland. And so at first the doctor said, I'll give you some medication, I'll give you some medication, some antibiotics, and let's see if your lymphatic system is just fighting off an infection. And if it doesn't subside, we'll have to do a biopsy. It didn't subside. So they did a biopsy and they said it's, the biopsy showed that it was lymphoma and then they said it's yes it's confirmed it's lymphoma and then they did the scans and they confirmed it at stage two because they said it has spread down to this quadrant so apparently the stages tells you how far it's spread

can i just ask, if you can remember, you've already said that you're someone who had a lot of fear in you. Seeing your friend with cancer probably ramped up that fear even more. What was it like for you when you actually got that diagnosis? Because it's as if all your fears had suddenly been materialized. And in some ways that reinforces your idea that, yes, I was right to fear this thing because now I've got it. Yes. Yes. Tell me about that a little bit, please. That was a very interesting feeling because there was a huge amount of fear, but in a way there was also a tiny bit of relief is that, okay, now I have

nothing to dread coming up because I've already got it. And so it was just the weirdest feeling. But the other thing that kicked in, which was also really strange, is that up until that point, I had been there for my friend and her family. I'd literally stopped doing anything for myself. Everything I did was to prevent cancer and to help her get over hers and to heal hers or to manage her family. I literally put myself, I made myself available for them because I felt so awful about what she was going through. But also for the first time when I had my own diagnosis, I felt, oh, now I get to take care of myself. I can't worry about

anyone else anymore. You said, now I get to take care of myself. Even that language is fascinating, isn't it? Yes. That it almost, well, is it fair to say that the cancer gave you permission for the first time to look after yourself and put yourself first? Yes, that's very astute of you. That's exactly what it was. I was not able to do anything for myself unless there was a good reason to. I felt guilty. And so much of that was from the conditioning of trying to win my father's approval and doing everything I could

to win his approval. Wow. So you've got cancer. Yes. And you're trying various things, cancer. Yes. And you're trying various things, but you keep getting worse, don't you? And talk us through that day, I think, was it 2006? Yes, on February the 2nd, 2006. Okay, so 18 years ago, this happened. Can you still remember as vividly as when it happened? I can. And that's the thing. This memory will never, never leave me because it was so real and vivid. Okay. So let's go through that. So we're up to the point where we understand your life before that. You've been diagnosed with cancer despite your best efforts to not get it. Yes. I know you try a variety of things for a few years or a few months, but let's go to that actual time in the hospital when everything in your life started to change. Okay. Yes. So at that point, I had reached the final stages of cancer. It had spread throughout my lymphatic system. So I had tumors by that point,

many of them the size of golf balls, literally the size of golf balls from the base of my skull, all around my neck, under my arms, in my chest, and all the way down to my abdomen. I mean, I still have the test results that lists where all the tumors are. And my lungs were filled with fluid. Like I had to go every three weeks, I would have to go to the clinic to have my lungs emptied from the fluid because I would start to choke on my fluid. So I could never sleep well at night because if I would lie flat, I would choke on my own fluid. So I always had to be propped up. But my body had also stopped absorbing nutrition for a long time. And so my muscles were completely atrophied. They'd completely deteriorated. So I didn't even have the strength in my body to stand up or to walk. So I was in a wheelchair for mobility or in

bed or sitting on a chair, but I didn't even have the strength in my neck to hold my head up. My head was always hanging down. And I weighed about 85 pounds and I had these open skin lesions where toxins were weeping out of my skin, which at the clinic, they had to keep cleaning up the wounds and bandaging them up. And so on February the 2nd, I went into a coma. I had been in so much pain and discomfort and fear. I feared everything. I feared the disease. I feared the treatment. I feared death. I feared everything at that point. And finally, and I was fighting to stay alive. Finally, it felt like I just couldn't fight anymore. I just didn't have it in me. And I went into a coma and my family were there in the hospital and they were all around me. And the

doctors told my family that these are my final hours and that I won't even make it through the night. And they told my family that my kidneys had also already shut down. And all of this is also written in my medical records, even the fact that they informed my family of my imminent death. That's there in your records? That's there in my records. Yes, it's actually written there. Of course, no one thought I would ever access my records after. They thought I was, yeah, I mean, even the doctors, because I had the right to go back and access all my records. And it's actually in there.

to go back and access all my records and it's actually in there. But the thing is, as my family were around me and my body, my physical body lying on that hospital bed in a coma, 85 pound body with skin lesions and tumors and everything was lying there, unbeknownst to everyone around me, I actually started to feel myself leave my body. And I felt incredible. I felt light. I felt free. And all the pain was gone. And all the fear was gone. For the first time in years, it just felt amazing. years. It just felt amazing. And see, I get emotional when I think about that time. And I felt like I was enveloped in this kind of ocean of love, like just this feeling of love that I've never felt in physical life before. And I wanted to communicate to my family who were around my body. So it was my brother, my husband, Danny, and my mom, the three of them were around me. And I wanted to tell them that I'm fine. Don't worry, because they were distraught. They

were crying. And I wanted to tell them, I'm fine. I'm better than fine. I'm going to be, I'm okay up here out of my body. I feel great. But I couldn't communicate with them because of course I had no vocal cords. I had no biology. And even the way that I was able to be aware of everything around me. It was like I had 360 degree awareness and I, it was, I could see, hear and feel everything that was happening. So when we look with our physical eyes, we have to kind of focus, we turn our head and we look and we have a limited perception of, you know, there's a limited field of what we can see. But from this perspective, it was strange and interesting because I could see like all around my physical body and beyond. And whatever I chose to put my focus on, I was there, even if it was outside the room. And in addition to that, I was able to actually feel the emotions of the people who were all

around me. I could feel the emotions of my family, which was, you know, they were really distraught, which was, you know, they were really distraught, of the doctors who were around me, the nurses. And they were all very caring and really trying their best to give me what I needed. They were poking tubes into my arms and I was connected to heart rate monitors. But I could feel their hopelessness because they knew I was going to die. There was even one doctor who actually just kept telling my family, I'm so sorry, it's just too late. It's just too late. There's nothing we can do.

We just have to wait. Can I ask you, Nisa? Yeah. You have told this story on many occasions since it happened. Yes. story on many occasions since it happened. Yes. Why is it do you think there's such emotion coming out from you as you're telling it? Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show. Now, if you're looking for something at this time of year to kickstart your health,

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Terms and conditions do apply. To get your 20% off code, all you have to do is go to vivobarefoot.com forward slash live more. For me, the memory of it doesn't get old at all because I feel so connected to that side when I tell it. So connected. That was so real. It was more real than this. And it's very easy. Like one of the fine lines that I tread is that that was so real and so clear. Everything that happened that I've yet to share with you was so revealing to me of who I am, why I'm here, what really matters that I am in a way,

sometimes if I don't remember it, it's easy to get caught up in the trappings of this physical world. It's really easy to get caught up with, I've got to sell my book and I've got to get this many views. And it's very easy to get caught up in that because that's what this physical world is about. But when you die, you realize none of that is important. And every time I share the story, I'm reminded of it. and I'm so glad that I had this happen to me because it's taught me what is really important and I and I've made it my mission to share it because I don't want people to have to die to figure it out I don't want them to have to go through what I did. There's plenty more to that story it's so, even up until this point, especially given what your medical

records said and given the fact that you're here in front of me in flesh and bones, looking incredibly healthy. What you have been through is often referred to as an NDE, a near-death experience. Do you think that's a good term for it? I think it's the best term that they could have come up. I didn't even give it that term. It was suggested to me that I think what you've had is an NDE, is a near-death experience. is a near-death experience. And I feel that our language is so limiting. And if I could come up with a term that felt more fitting, I would love to. Yeah, that's interesting. Because it's fascinating, this whole field of near-death experiences. There's so many books on it. There's so many documented cases. In

fact, are you familiar with Dr. Bruce Grayson? Oh, yes. I know him personally because he's researched my case. He's researched everything, my medical records, all of it. Wow. Because I heard a recent interview with him and he's from the University of Virginia. I think it's over 50 years he's been looking at this. And I wrote down something he said because I wanted to put it to you. So this is a bona fide, medically trained psychiatrist. I think he's a tenured professor at the University of Virginia, right? So he's got all the kind of the minerals and the credentials that people might want. I think he said he has documented over a thousand NDEs, near-death experiences I didn't know one of them was yours

One of them is mine I've filled in millions of pages of his forms and questionnaires Because I think he's very robust And he wants to get as much objective evidence as he can That this actually did happen But this is what I wrote down from what he said I was taught in college and medical school that the mind is what the brain does. And all of our thoughts and feelings and perceptions are all created by the brain. But I cannot believe that

anymore. I've seen people whose brains were either offline or severely impaired, telling me they had the most elaborate experience they've ever had. So I'm now inclined to think that the mind is something else and the brain filters it. Now that is really powerful coming from a Western medically trained doctor and professor. Yes. And he acknowledges in many interviews that he started off as a real skeptic, but his years of experience in research has actually changed his mind. What do you say to what I just read out from Bruce? I would agree.

And I would say that the mind, because of my experience, and I experienced myself out of body, and again, language is limiting. So that out of body part of me, that part of me that to me is the part of me that has always lived and will always live. It's infinite. It exists beyond the physical body. I would say that is the part that's connected to the mind. The brain is part of our biology. The mind is actually the bridge between our spirit and our brain. That's kind of how I would describe it.

Yeah. So let's keep going with that story. Your physical body is in this hospital room. Yes. The doctors are saying to your family, it's too late. I'm sorry, there's nothing we could do. There's tears, there's fear, there's resignation. You can see your husband upset, your parents upset. Yet you at that time,

your experience is that now you were aware of all of that. You could sense their feelings and their emotions, but you had this 360 degree perception. Again, I recognize that words are limiting, but you had this sort of awareness that you'd never had before then what happens so then I started to feel myself continuing to expand and so and then I started to perceive that so I was like, so that my peripheral senses were picking up things that were beyond this room, beyond this hospital, much beyond as though, and this again, really lacks words, as though another dimension was opening up for want of a better way of putting it, because other beings started to come into my awareness. And these beings were entities, spiritual beings. And I recognized

some of them. I recognized my best friend who had died from cancer. She was there and my dad was there. My dad who had died 10 years prior, who I had a terrible relationship with growing up. And he was there to greet me. And all I felt from him was pure, unconditional love. bodies, it's almost as though they communicate with you telepathically, but it's like not in sentences, not in language. It's almost like their energy imprints itself onto you so you know who they are and you know what they want you to know. You know, immediately I was like, it was like, oh, wow, my dad, he loves me unconditionally. I had never felt that level of love from my dad. And he wanted me to know that he really loved me. He'd always loved me, but he had never known how to show it because of how his culture had brought him up and um it was just incredible to to find that out it feels almost like a stupid question given what you've just said but i guess what i'm wondering is

your dad had died 10 years previously. Yeah. I'm sure that was very upsetting for you. But of course, you had this very fractured relationship as well. Did your NDE, your near-death experience, where you felt as if you'd experienced your father in a different way, now that you're back in the physical world, has it changed your relationship with your dad?

Oh, a hundred percent, a hundred percent, because my dad was the one that said to me, and we're jumping ahead, but my dad was the one that said to me on that side. And when I say said, I mean, you know, imprinted on me that it wasn't my time. He's the one that said, now that you know who you truly are, you have to go back and live your life fearlessly. So my dad was the one who instilled fear in me during life, but he was the one that broke that cycle in death. Okay. I mean, it's really powerful to hear you explain that experience in your words the fact that he said to you it's not your time and given that you are here now many years on right after being told you had a terminal diagnosis and that you were dying basically, or you were, you know, almost dead.

Yes. How do you explain the fact that you came back? Was that a choice you think you made or did it just happen? It was actually a choice because, so even before my dad said that, I was given the choice as to whether I wanted to come back. So I reached a point where I was told, so it's like a state of clarity and there's no one entity telling you anything. It's like you're starting to gain this understanding because you're now no longer trapped by your physical body and the limitations of only your experiences from this life. When you're out of the body, you become aware of the grander picture of why your soul chose this life and these circumstances.

Why did I get sick? Why did I not follow what I came here to do? So there's like a whole grander picture that opens up and there's this clarity. And I actually understood how it came to be that all the thoughts and decisions and choices I had made in my life had led me to that point of dying in that hospital bed. And I don't want to suggest that anybody who's sick or dying, that it's their fault because they made the wrong choices. That's not the case at all. It's never anybody's fault. But I do want people to know that there's a lot of things that we do that contribute so you can change those things. So I understood how it was that I had contributed to me being in that state. And I also understood that I was much more powerful than I had ever

been led to believe. I'm not inferior because I'm a woman. And so as I understood who I truly am, that's when I started to understand, oh, I had never loved myself. I'd never felt worthy. I never knew that I actually mattered. And my soul is here to experience itself to its fullest because I had always made myself small. I was always the doormat. So as I was learning all this and absorbing all this because I was getting to know my soul,

I reached this point where I was getting the message that if you keep going further from here, you won't be able to turn back. This is the end. So you have to turn back now. But I didn't want to turn back because no part of me wanted to leave this amazing space, this amazing feeling I had and go back into a sick and dying body. And it was at that point that my dad actually said that it's not your time. And my dad said that that you have gifts waiting for you and you have a purpose and you haven't fulfilled it yet yeah remarkable to hear that do you remember that moment

when you returned to your physical body and how that felt? Yes. Oh, yes. I remember that so clearly. So when my dad said, go back and live your life fearlessly, you know, basically I even wanted to know how do I find my purpose? How do I fulfill it? And the message I got was you don't need to look for it. Just be yourself, be yourself, love yourself and live fearlessly. That's all. Your purpose will unfold for you. You don't have to chase it, pursue it. And so that's when I made the decision to come back. The minute I made the decision to come back and the seconds I made the decision to come back, it felt like I was starting to come into my body and my physical eyes started to open. I'd been in the coma for a little over a

day, like 30 hours. And so my eyes started to open and I saw my family around me. And I started to say to them that, you know, I started to talk and I said, I'm going to be fine. You don't have to worry about me. It's not my time. Dad is here. And I kept saying, Dad is here. So at first they just thought it was the drugs messing with my mind. But they were also elated that my eyes were open and I was coming out of the coma. And so they immediately called the doctor on duty. Now the doctor on duty was someone who'd never treated me before that morning. He had come in that morning to check on the fluid in my lungs and to remove some fluid, but he'd never treated me before that. And when he walked in the room, I actually called him by

his name. I said, oh, good afternoon, Dr. Chan. And he said, how do you know my name? I said, aren't you the doctor that came in this morning and took fluid out of my lungs? And he said, but you were in a coma. You couldn't possibly have been aware of that. And I just went, oh, I was. Because for me in that moment, in that state, was. Because for me in that moment, in that state, I was really feeling kind of discombobulated, like I had one foot on each side. I was still somewhat aware that this whole other realm existed right here. It's not like I traveled trillions of miles away into the ethers, it's like they exist right here, this whole other dimension. And that's why I call that the world of love and this physical dimension and the messages we get from here is the world of fear. The messages we get from there is love. And so I was aware that it's right here. So I didn't know that I had been closed off from this world.

So I was saying, really? I was in a coma? Anyway, he left the room and I said to my husband, I said to Danny, why was he so surprised that I recognized him? Isn't he the doctor that said that I won't even make it through the night? Didn't he say that yesterday? And that's when Danny said, he didn't even say that in the room. You couldn't possibly have heard it. He said it down the hallway at the nurse's station. He did not say that in your presence. And that's when they realized something had happened.

Okay. Right. A lot to get my head around there. Okay. So, let's go back to this term near-death experience for a moment. Now, I want to say right at the start here, I'm very open-minded, right? So, I totally am bought into this story and want to learn more. At the same time, I'm aware that there may be some skeptics who are listening or watching. So let's just break it down a little bit. Okay. And I'm reminded of a conversation I had with this neuroscientist, Anil Seth, who is maybe one of the leading researchers in this country, maybe globally in terms of consciousness, but through a scientific lens. And I appreciate that's not everything,

right? But in that conversation with Anil, right here at this table, we brought up NDEs. And I said, I think I said something to Anil like, Anil, what do you make of these things? Because there are so many documented cases, right? And he goes, yeah, it's fascinating. He said one explanation for some of them, and I don't want to misspeak for him because he's not here, but my recollection is that one of the things he said was that, look, there could be a couple of explanations for some of them, right? So one might be in an operating theatre where the anaesthetic isn't fully, you know, at its max capacity. So maybe, you know, someone's partially anaesthetized and they have some sort of awareness and when they come back to full awakeness, maybe that's part of the explanation. That's one of the

things he said. Also, he said that another biological explanation is that when the body is starting to shut down near death, the visual cortex starts to shut down and the peripheries go first. So often people will describe, I'm not sure you said this, but many people do describe this kind of narrow white light that they see. And he said we could potentially have a biological explanation for that in terms of it's just the periphery of our vision and our visual cortex starting to shut down. First of all, I'd love to know your view of that. Okay.

Okay. But I guess one thing that wouldn't fit with that is even if you had been anesthetized, even if your visual cortex was shutting down as your kidneys were shutting down and parts of your brain were shutting down, that doesn't explain how you could have heard something down the corridor in a nurse's station, does it?

Yeah, no, it doesn't. So, you know, I'm excited to talk to you. I want to know more about the story. I'm just trying to also be aware that some skeptics may be listening. So I think it's important that we cover these points. I agree. I have no problem with that at all. I agree.

And I like that you're doing that because I know what happened to me. And so that's why I'm totally open to people asking whatever they like. So a couple of things there. So first of all, I was aware that I was no longer in the physical body. So for me, it did feel like I was expanding beyond that room. But even beyond that, you know, I was expanding beyond that room. But even beyond that, you know, I was expanding, it felt like I was no longer restricted to a three-dimensional five sensory body. And once I'm not restricted, it felt like I could feel, as I said, other people that were around me and treating me,

people that were around me and treating me, but I knew what they were thinking, what they were saying. So even, so including, of course, this conversation, I was not only able to hear it. You see, we say hearing because we're hearing with our ears. It's almost like an awareness. Oh, the doctor is saying that to my husband. And I even remember my mom speaking to another doctor who was there, who was my regular doctor. My mom was speaking to him and she was literally begging him and saying, please, is there anything you can do? Is there nothing you can do? And I could feel that he was feeling so awkward. He was just unable to tell my mom that there was nothing that he could do. But I could also sense that he was feeling terrible, that he hadn't been able to heal me or help me all these years. So I'm not sure what to put it down

to, but I really was not in my body, but I was everywhere. And all of these things that I describe does fit in with descriptions of near-death experiences. Now, what I didn't experience was the white light. Okay. And a lot of people who study near-death experiences, like Bruce Grayson, and by the way, I do accept the term NDE for my experience because it does

have a lot of elements of a near-death experience. So people like Bruce Grayson, researchers, have said to me that a huge possibility of why you didn't experience the white light was because you didn't have a sudden death. It was a slow decline into a coma. Whereas people who have a heart attack or who are in an accident or who fall off a mountain or fall off a boat, it's unexpected. It's completely unexpected. It's a shock. It's a surprise. There's an impact. And it's like their soul rushes out of their body or their their life force just rushes out of their body and that sensation maybe causes that tunnel-like feeling and effect that's one theory yeah that's interesting tell us what happened to your cancer. So when I came back, I was telling my family,

I'm going to be fine. You don't have to worry. And I was connected to all these tubes, the food tubes and nutrition tubes and the heart rate monitor and the oxygen tube and everything. And so I was saying, I'm not going to need these tubes I'm fine I'll be fine to breathe and what started to happen is that the fluid in my lungs first of all which had just been removed that morning and usually builds up again it had just been removed that morning as I had identified Dr. Chan had done the fluid stopped stopped building up. And then the tumors, the golf ball sized tumors started to soften that within two, three, four days, the doctors could feel it with their hands, without scans, without anything, that they were softening and shrinking

and literally like they were melting. And then I started eating food and then I didn't need the oxygen tube anymore. And I was telling them I'm happy to eat food. And so they pulled out the food tube and they didn't know what to write in my medical records because- I'm not surprised they didn't know what to write. Yes. And in three weeks, they did the lymph node biopsy and they could find no trace of cancer in my lymphatic system. And they said, we've still got more tests to do. So I let them do all the tests they wanted because I was euphoric.

And so I let them do whatever they wanted. They were giving me meds, they were doing tests. And I said, you can do what you like, because I know I'm going to be fine. I know, because I have experienced who I really am. And I know how powerful I am. And I'm more powerful than anything you guys do. I actually felt that way. I felt that when my soul knows, when I know why I'm here, who I'm supposed to be, nothing can get in the way. And so they were so shocked. My doctor, my oncologist actually made the gesture of tossing my medical file into the trash. He was like, I have no idea what to write in here.

This is meaningless. And he just made the gesture as though he was tossing it in the trash. But I had these open skin lesions that I was told would need surgery to heal because my body didn't even have enough nutrition to heal it. But the open skin lesions started to heal themselves. And they were waiting for me to get stronger because my body was still weak. So I started physiotherapy with them in the hospital. They were waiting for me to get stronger so that I could do the bone marrow biopsy,

which is more grueling and painful. And they did the bone marrow biopsy, which is more grueling and painful. And they did the bone marrow biopsy, no trace of cancer. And then they did the final scans and MRI. And they were shocked. They said, this doesn't happen. This just doesn't happen. How long after your coma, how long after that day, were you told you no longer had cancer? This episode is sponsored by Thriver, the app that helps you listen to your blood and get personalized guidance on how to optimize your health and fitness. Now, I think regular blood tests can be a really valuable tool that can help

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Varilux now designs lenses for each wearer's specific needs and lifestyles. Get your eyes checked or find your local optician at selaw.com and ask for Varilux. So it was five weeks after that day that they told me they couldn't find any trace of cancer in my body. And so this is after doing all the biopsies and all the tests. Okay. I just want to highlight that point. You had end stage cancer, advanced cancer. It was ravaging your body. You're in a coma, the doctors are saying it's too late, telling your family, I'm really sorry, there's nothing more we can do. Not only do you come back, but five weeks later, you're cancer free.

Yes. Okay, so I'm a Western trained medical doctor. We certainly do not learn about anything like this at medical school. But as I've gone through my career, like many of the doctors I know, who I would say a lot of the best doctors I know, the more patients they see, the more they realize how much they don't know. the more they realize how much they don't know. But I genuinely mean that. I've seen that. And I think a story like that,

and I'd love to know your experience of the medical profession around that story, but I think people tend to take one of two approaches. I think that the more usual approach in medicine is almost to pretend it didn't happen. Yes. And go, I don't get it. Let's just not talk about it. I don't understand that. We have these phrases in medicine, idiopathic, right? Basically, we don't know what causes it, right? Or, you know, spontaneous remission, right? I'm not criticizing anyone here. I get it. It's so far removed from our training. Like many doctors just won't know what do I do with that? How does that help me

with my patients? Like Anita's experience when I've got a patient next week who comes in with a lump and we do a biopsy and we find out it's a lymphoma. What can I use from Anita's experience to help that patient? So I understand that. At the same time, there are other doctors who go, wow, I wonder what's going on there. Yes. We don't know about that.

What else do we not know? Right? So I kind of feel those are the sort of two approaches. And there's so many cases, maybe not identical to yours, but there's many cases of cancer. These are documented cases where we as a profession didn't think people were going to get better. Yes. But they did. I don't know if you've read Cured by Jeff Rediger. cases where we as a profession didn't think people were going to get better.

But they did. I don't know if you've read Cured by Jeff Rediger. Oh, I don't know that one. He's a, I think he was a Harvard trained psychiatrist. But again, a senior, you know, well-respected clinician who has documented in his book, all kinds of conditions getting better that we can't explain. So my approach is to go, wow. And to be clear to anyone who's listening, this has been documented. There's evidence of everything you're talking about. Yes, it has. And of course, you mentioned Dr. Bruce Grayson at University of Virginia. He's gone and documented all this as well. Yes. So we know that you had cancer. It was advanced. And we know that you don't have it. Yes.

And it only took five weeks to heal. Even that for me, it's like, wow, it only took five weeks to heal. Any comments on what I've just said? No, you were very accurate. You articulated it very well, but perhaps, okay, let me elaborate on a couple of things. I loved what you said earlier about how doctors, they don't know what to do about it. So they almost pretend like it never happened. And I have experienced that with doctors, with my own doctor who didn't know how to explain it. And when I told him what I experienced, that I had the NDE, he completely believed me. And he said, I have had other patients who have had experiences where they felt they went somewhere

else. So he said that, and, you know, in my presence, that's how he believed me. And we had a little conversation. He said, I knew there was something more because there's no way you could have healed in that time. And so he knew what I was saying was true. But what happened is that some months later, I was found by a reporter, a journalist, who wanted to write about my story in the local newspaper. So this was in Hong Kong, local newspaper. And then she said, would your oncologist be willing to verify what you've just said? And I said, yes, absolutely. He believed me when I told him and he was the one who was there in the hospital

who treated me. When she talked to him though, he had a slightly different story because he is a senior oncologist at a very prestigious hospital. And he said, she's lucky to be alive, but what she had was a spontaneous remission. And he said that, and then, so the journalist said, but what about what she saw on the other side? He said, oh, that must have been the drugs messing, you know, playing with her mind. playing with her mind. It's really interesting you sharing that. I'm going to be really honest here, okay, because this idea that we need to live an authentic life without any fear, it's something I've really been paying attention to over the last few years? Where does fear exist in my life?

Why does that fear exist? How can I change that? So, and I think here's a good time to share that. Okay. I went to one of Europe's most prestigious medical schools in Edinburgh. I have an honours degree in immunology. I have all kinds of letters after my name, right? Given by the institutions. It would be much easier for me and would sit comfortably with me in my training to not have you on my show. That occurred to me too. But I think in life, But I think in life, when we stop following our heart for the purpose of pleasing other people, I think it's a dangerous road to walk. And I also have walked that road for much of my life and I don't want to walk it anymore. Wow. Right. I don't want to walk it anymore. And so for me, I felt on some level, I would be betraying myself if I didn't have you on my show,

have you on my show? Because I'm fascinated by what you have to say, right? Ultimately, what am I doing? I'm hearing your story. I don't even need to believe your story. First of all, I'm not saying I don't believe it. I'm saying I don't even need to. I think one of the problems we've had in the medical profession is that when people have powerful stories, we don't talk about them. So people then have to share that story in the darkness. Yes. Right? And then people start labeling that as, oh, you know, that's not real. And I was thinking, well, hold on a minute.

I'm very lucky to have this huge platform around the world to talk about health and to talk about how do we improve our lives. And so for me, I sat with myself and thought, no, you know what? I want to talk to Anita. I'm going to follow my heart because I want to learn. I want to go, well, what are we missing in medicine? What is it perhaps that we could learn from these experiences? And the truth is, once you start digging into this field of NDEs, there's a lot of research out there. There is. And I think for me, Anissa, one thing I've realized is that our trading

is scientific and it should be. But I think so many of us misunderstand science. Science is our attempt to explain reality. Yes. Science isn't necessarily reality. It's our best attempt to explain it. So we know so many things that we thought were true 100 years ago, we now know to not be true. Yes. So I think we need a bit of humility to go with all these spontaneous remissions going on all around the world. What is it in medicine that we don't know? What is it that in 100 years we'll look back on now and go, man, those guys didn't know much, did they? They still thought cancer

was this or that, whereas we now know it's something else. So I think basically what I'm trying to say is, well, I think I'm saying two things there. One, I agree with you, we need to follow our hearts. And two, I think we need to all practice a little bit more humility. Wow, everything you said there was so powerful for me. It really was. Because I have related in everything you say, like, first of all, let me be vulnerable, just like you said that you were afraid to have this conversation with me.

So when I speak to doctors and scientists, and if we do so, like we are doing now, or if I'm speaking to skeptics on a podcast or on an interview, what happens is that the audience of a person who has that kind of mind, obviously that person is going to attract people like them. They're going to attract other skeptics and people who want more evidence. So when I share a story like that on such a podcast, it's also scary for me. It also takes a leap of faith. And thoughts like that did cross my mind. And so there were times when I thought, oh, maybe this interview was not meant to work out to protect me. And then it's like, oh, no, the interview is happening.

Maybe it is time to take that leap of faith that it's time to cross that divide. Because a huge portion of my audience, and I mean a huge portion of my audience, are more on the spiritual side. Mind you, there are more and more doctors coming on board. I have oncologists who come to my events and say, I've recommended your book to all my patients and that's very heartening. I can believe that because here's the reality in medicine as I see it. If you've seen enough patients and you've kept enough of an open mind, you will know

that there are things going on all the time that you cannot explain. I've seen people get better and I cannot, or back then I could not clearly explain the steps physiologically, biochemically, like they did this and this happened. I can't. And again, as I've already said, you can either shut that down or go, wow, well, we know a lot of doctors and we're able to help a lot of people, but there's some people who are getting better and it ain't got anything to do with us. Isn't that interesting? You mentioned the word skeptic. What do skeptics of yours tend to say? All kinds of things.

I've even been told, what if you were misdiagnosed? Which, I had cancer for four years and it would mean five different doctors had misdiagnosed it. And this was in Hong Kong? This was in Hong Kong. So really great hospitals. Yes, they are offshoots of Sloan Kettering and all these like-

Big American hospitals. Big American hospitals. And I was like, even where I had the coma was one of the biggest hospitals in Hong Kong. And the one of the top, it's one of the top most prestigious hospitals and the senior oncologist there is very well known in Hong Kong. So let's just look at that sceptical comment for a second. Okay, what if you were misdiagnosed? Now, it's a reasonable thing to say. If it was just one doctor and there wasn't much diagnostic evidence,

you could follow that thread and go, yeah, perhaps Anita was misdiagnosed, right? So she had this experience, she got better, but she never had it in the first place. The fact that you were in such a prestigious hospital that you had five different doctors corroborate your diagnosis in different forms makes that unlikely. Yes.

Right? To say the least. It makes it unlikely. Given that, and given what I know about your documented history, I think it's inarguable that you had cancer and now you don't. Yes. We know that happens. That is something that exists out there yet people have cancer and then for some people they don't yes for whatever uh methods or treatment they took to get to that place right when in medicine we'd call that in remission yes right okay so i think we can acknowledge that that has happened. Where I guess people could say,

okay, Nisa, it's really interesting to hear your experience and what you think it meant for you, because clearly you have learned some powerful life lessons, which I'm hoping we get to shortly, that you've then gone and applied in your life. Yes. And from what I can tell from you, and you know, I met you and your husband when you came into the house this morning, and there's such a lovely warm energy from all of you, I will say. Thank you. You're clearly someone who's very happy and contented and living a meaningful life now. So at the very least,

we can go, wow, this is the lady who had cancer and doesn't have cancer anymore. And through her diagnosis and her experience, she's learned some powerful truths that she's used to help herself. And frankly, the life truths that you've learned and you've written about in Dying to Be Me, are truths that we can all use to help us, whether we have cancer or not. Would you agree with those statements? I would 100% agree. And so what I love about what you're saying is you've captured the crux of why I share my message. And so if I can share a little bit of my experience since then as to the things I've been dealing with in terms of skepticism or the opposite,

who really support. So what happened is subsequently, I wrote my story for cathartic reasons. I just wrote and wrote it. And then I submitted it to a near-death experience website. I didn't even realize it was an NDE, but somebody sent me a link to a site called NDERF. And I read some of the stories and I thought, wow, there's so many similarities. And then it said, have you had an NDE? Submit it to us and we would love to read it. So I submitted, I just copied and pasted everything I wrote and submitted it to NDERF. And I got a response very quickly from Dr. Jeffrey Long. I don't know if you've heard of him. NDE researcher, but also a oncologist.

So when he saw my account where I wrote about the cancer, he was extremely interested. He reached out right away, asked me more questions, asked if I was willing to share some of my doctor reports, and I was happy to. And he said, wow, this is really powerful. I'm going to publish it on the homepage of my website, but I'm not going to put your full name. I said, perfect. He just put Anita M's NDE. It went viral and I didn't realize it. And then it got picked up by another doctor who has an area of interest in oncology. So he lived in Los Angeles and he read the story. Somebody had sent it to him, the link from the NDERF. So his name was Dr. Ko. He picked it up, he read it, and he was extremely interested and wanted to talk to me.

He said, I happen to be going to Hong Kong for a business trip later this year. Would you be willing to meet with me? I said, absolutely. He came to Hong Kong. He wanted to go look at my medical records. I took him to the hospital. We got my records. I had to tell them that I'm moving my treatment over to another doctor and they released

it to Dr. Koh. And when he read it, he's the one that showed me where it said the family have been informed. I mean, I was shocked. It was the first time I was looking at it with him in such detail. That must be nuts, like to read that and go, especially when you're well and healthy, it must be such a surreal experience. Extremely surreal. I was sitting there with him reading it. And as he went through the medical, the results of each and the timeline, he's like writing it all down. And this is what he said to me. He said, lady, whichever way I look at it, you should be dead. And so he said to me, you need to write a book with your testimony. And he said, I'm researching your case. And he shared with me,

he said, actually, I'm very afraid of cancer. And so I actually hunt down what people call spontaneous remissions. And I want to go deep into each one to find out what it is that triggered it. And he said that the only thing I can say is that it was some kind of divine intervention. He actually said, there's no way your body could have healed that. There were too many cancer cells in your body, it was too weak. I can only attribute it to divine intervention. Can I ask? Yes. You've spoken about this with many doctors.

And as you say that even at your events, and you gave a big event in Manchester last night, do you see a pattern in terms of the doctors who are more open to your story compared to those who are closed-minded? Now, I guess anyone who's closed-minded probably wouldn't end up turning up at one of your events, I'm guessing. So it's kind of a skewed perception already. I guess what I'm getting at is... Like, is there a difference... Is there a difference? Is there a difference? Have you noticed a difference?

Very huge difference. The ones that are open, like yourself, like Dr. Ko and even my GP, Brian Walker, who was there, all the ones that are open and the ones who come to my events, they're curious. They want to understand it because they want it for their patients they want it to help them be better practitioners and i love that i love that passion the ones who are more closed who are really skeptical it's almost like they want me to feel that i am mistaken that i'm crazy it's almost like they take they're trying to take it away from me. Well, because in some ways it threatens their identity. Yeah.

Right? And I have sympathy, right? I have sympathy for them because acknowledging what you say has happened to you and what the evidence shows has happened to you, for some people will be too threatening. It's like, I don't know what to do with that. It starts to challenge how I see the human body, how I treat patients. And I think for some people, it's just easier to just go, whatever, she's a one-off. This doesn't happen. Let me just crack on with my job. I guess I was wondering, was there any cultural difference? Because you said before in your

description, I think you were comparing people who suddenly get sick, like a heart attack, and they often see that narrow tunnel. And then you compared it with yours, which was much more gradual. So maybe that's a reason why you didn't see that tunnel. You said something about the soul leaving the body. Yes. And then I thought, wow, is that to do, is your interpretation of that in some way informed by your culture? Because you grew up in an Indian family, in some way informed by your culture? Because you grew up in an Indian family, I grew up in an Indian family, and in many Indian families, there is a belief, certainly in Hindu families, that the soul is eternal.

Yes. So do you think in any way your upbringing has shaped your interpretation of what happens? shaped your interpretation of what happened? I believe that my upbringing has made it easier for me to accept what happened and allow it to unfold in the way that it did to allow the healing. So I think, for example, I think that somebody, let's take, let's say somebody is really adamant on debunking me and is somebody who is actually trying to convince me that it's my mind, it didn't happen or I'm crazy. I think for something like this to happen to someone like that is less likely because their mind won't be able to wrap itself around something like this. So that's what I believe. So even if my beliefs were shaped by my Hindu culture, although my upbringing was, it was a Chinese city, Hong Kong, a British school and Indian Hindu parents. What a blend of inputs into your young minds. Yes, it was a real blend. And I, I do believe that I, I had, I did have a cultural, I'm going to say advantage,

a cultural advantage in that I wasn't, my mind wasn't fixed on any particular way of thinking or any particular belief. And so I think it was quite open in that way. I can't remember when I first heard about your story. It might have been my wife a few years ago who mentioned it to me. But I do know that Dr. Gabor Mate, who has been on this show, I think on four occasions now now I think on maybe two of them he's mentioned you so in terms of um credibility so this is this is really interesting for me in the interview that I heard with Bruce Grayson I think was on Tim Ferriss yeah yeah he said 40 or 50 years ago when he was studying this or he started to in some ways it was a bit like career suicide i think he was told actually at his university if you continue studying like this you're not going to get tenure wow and so i think he changed university. I think so. But he said it's different now.

And it reminds me of many other things, you know, this idea that we don't know everything and that we're constantly learning. Does that give you hope in terms of your experience and other people who have experienced what you have in terms of gaining acceptance? Or does it not matter to you? So it matters and it doesn't. And I want to say this properly because the reason I share it is because I actually want to help people. So it matters to me for them, not for me.

That's what I'm trying to say. For their sake, it matters to me that they understand this, because I think that if people understood how important it is to live a life knowing that we have purpose and there's a reason for living and how much that actually drives your well-being and for people to know who they are. I think that their lives would be so much better. And I think it's a message for everyone, not just people who have cancer. But I think that if people want to debunk me or dismiss me or, yes, completely dismiss me, I guess what I'm saying is that it's their loss, not mine. completely dismiss me. I guess what I'm saying is that it's their loss, not mine, but it matters in the sense that I guess my reason for doing it is to help people. And so I have noticed that there are some minds that aren't ready to be changed. And so I try,

I don't try to convince people because the more you try to convince someone, the more they're going to argue and push back. And what happens is that if they're arguing, I find myself getting more caught up in this spiral of trying to prove it, but I don't need to prove it to anybody. Yeah. Well, that's quite telling about someone's personality in and of itself, isn't it? Because let's say you don't believe you. Let's say you're someone who right now is listening to this and goes, yeah, Nita, like we have to say about living life fearlessly, I'm not sure about your interpretation. Yeah. If you then feel a need to go and search for evidence and debunk you and email this other daughter and email you. I think it says a lot about your own personality and perhaps the fragility of one's identity

because you could just take the approach. Wow. Interesting. Anita's had a powerful life experience. She's clearly learned some cool things that she's applied and she's Anissa's had a powerful life experience. She's clearly learned some cool things that she's applied and she's rocking it now. Amazing. I don't buy it. I'm going to crack on with my life. It could be that simple. Yes, it could. Right? And I think that's quite a healthy approach. You know, everyone's got their right to an opinion. No one's got the right to invalidate your experience. Yeah.

They can't do. You experience what you experienced, right? That is real to you. Yes. Right? If someone doesn't believe you or goes, I'm not sure, I think there's an explanation, but hey, good for her. I think that's okay.

And they can still learn these lessons. I mean, in your TED Talk, you spoke about the importance of living life fearlessly, the importance of self-love, the importance of humor, love, and joy, that life is a gift, not a chore, that the most important thing is to be yourself. I think we could all benefit from those five life lessons. Exactly. Irrespective of cancer, right? And what you just said was fascinating for me, and it's something I have also evolved. There's been a public- facing part of my career now for maybe 11 years.

And I think when I started, I was full of passion and I wanted to convince people. I wanted to change them. I'm like, no, no, no, no. We can help so many problems with our lifestyle. This is what you got to do. And I think last year or the year before, I watched my TED talk. I hadn't seen it in years. I was like, who's that guy? I was really full of passion and trying to get my point across. And that was who I was at that time and I'm I'm very proud of who I was back then but I feel I feel these days I'm not here to convince anyone yeah do you know what I mean it's because it's a much it's that lesson be yourself right one of those lessons this is about me being myself and following my heart and my curiosity and that's what I realized is how I serve the most people is by actually serving myself first. 100%. You've got it. That's exactly,

you've just articulated my attitude exactly about sharing my story. So I do it. I love sharing it because it's a constant. It keeps me living my life in that joyful way. And I share it because it actually helps people for those who are interested. I've had people come to me and say, you know, in the beginning, I was really skeptical. I really doubted you. But now over the years, I'm actually seeing that there is something to what you're saying. And I know you're telling the truth. Yeah. I mean, the truth is, and Gabor's mentioned this on this show, other researchers have, you know, in The Myth of Normal, he goes through in quite a lot of detail the associations in the science of literature between our emotional health yes uh repressed emotions

not being who we are excessive people pleasing yes right he's got all kinds of references in there i've gone through a lot of it for my new book about the relationship between those traits and things like autoimmune disease, things like cancer. And again, as you said before, it's not about blame at all. It's about empowerment. It is about empowerment.

So with that in mind then, almost two decades on, right? What do you think caused your cancer? I think that I believed I was worthless. I had no self-esteem. I didn't love myself. self-esteem. I didn't love myself. I used to serve everybody before me. I put everybody before me. I did not give myself or do anything for myself. I believed it was selfish to take care of myself. I didn't feel my life had much meaning or purpose. And my soul, again, the soul was, I would say repressed because I did not realize that I had anything important to say or to share or to show the world. And I've never allowed myself to be who I am, shine my light, speak out. Like today, I'm not afraid to speak out about many different things. I even sometimes touch a little bit on gender disparity and how women's

energies, women need to voice their energies more because our world is imbalanced. And I'll talk about all kinds of things that I'm passionate about or that are close to my heart. The old me would never have done that. I would have been so careful what I talk about. I've been so careful not to offend people. And I honestly believed that being subservient was a positive trait because that's what I was socialized to believe. I was socialized to put everybody ahead of me, to see everybody as elevated and to be of service to everybody. I was socialized, like to even see God in everybody's eyes, which is great. It's a great trait. But it was only when I crossed over, when I died for the first time, I saw God in my own eyes. for the first time I saw God in my own eyes.

In your TEDx talk, when you were making the point about life is a gift, not a chore, I think you said that your cancer was a gift. Yes, it was. You said the cancer was not killing you. You were killing yourself before you got the cancer. The cancer saved your life.

Yes, a hundred percent. Can you expand? Yes. So what I was living was not a life. I was not fulfilling what I had come here to be. fulfilling what I had come here to be. And I was always putting myself last. I was always miserable. I was always feeling left out. That was not a life. And it was only when I got the cancer did I start taking care of myself. However, even though I started taking care of myself, I was always still a people pleaser and was still worried about putting other people out. So for example, even as I got sicker and sicker, when people would come and offer to help,

when they would say, oh, we'll cook your meals for you or we'll help drive you, I would say, no, no, it's fine, Don't do that. I didn't want to trouble anyone. This is before the coma. Before the coma, but when I was sick with cancer. So I'm deteriorating and getting sicker. And you still won't accept help. I wouldn't accept help. And so I'm getting sicker and sicker and people, because I didn't want to put anyone out. I didn't want to bother anyone.

And I was always so afraid of bothering people, putting people out. And so I'm getting sicker and sicker and people are saying, we can help you. We can drive you to your doctor's appointment. Is there anything we can do? And I would say, no, no, don't take time out of your day to do that. I would still be there when people called if they needed a shoulder to cry on. And here's me getting sicker and dying. And it wasn't cancer that healed me from being a people pleaser. It was death. And that's why I tell people, don't wait. Don't wait until you die. If there's only one message you could leave

people with after your experience, what would it be? It would be to be yourself, to get to know yourself. It's so important to get to know who you are. And the other piece of that is it's really important for you to have a life that you look forward to living. If you're living a life where you hate your job or you're in situation or relationships that you're not happy in and it's prolonged on and on and you're not looking forward to every day, that's not living. That's not a good life at all. And continuing to live like that for a prolonged period of time depletes your energy. And that's what I believe eventually leads to your body breaking down. But if you have a reason for living, if you have a reason to wake

up every morning, you're going to be much healthier. And if you're not well, you're much more likely to heal than someone who lives a life that has no purpose or meaning for them. How do you help someone who feels that they are an excessive people pleaser because on one level we're social animals yes right so well on many levels we are so we want to be um doing things for other people we want to be of value to the people around us. It's really about balance, isn't it? But how do you help people navigate that? Because we don't want to get to a point, and I kind of feel many of us have struggled with people pleasing.

Yes. Many people still do. I know I certainly did. Excessive people pleasing, I should say, to be a bit more accurate. But then it's good, isn't it, to do things for others? How do you help people sort of get the right balance there? So I'm going to give you a tool I use in my workshops. And this is something that I use for myself. I developed it for myself to help me live life ever since I had the near-death experience. And it'll take a few minutes to explain. So I believe, especially since the

near-death experience, that basically we are kind of made up of life force energy. Let's say we give energy a currency, okay? Just energy, the amount of energy you have to expend every day. Let's just give it a currency. So let's say when you have a good night's sleep and you wake up in the morning, a good night's sleep gives you 12 units of energy. And then what I do is every day, I will ask myself, have I had a good night's sleep, bad night's sleep, you know, and you give it. So a good night's sleep is 12 units of energy. Then the next thing is if you have a healthy breakfast, it gives you more units of energy, let's say two or three units of energy, nice healthy breakfast. But let's say you're someone who lives a rushed life and you don't

have time for a good breakfast. You grab something cold on the run and you're eating it on your way to your car. So that breakfast didn't give you any energy. Probably your body needed to use energy to digest it. And then you get in the car and you're in traffic. And then being in traffic, you're getting impatient, you're running late. So you use another two or three units of energy. Let's say you go to a job you hate where you don't like your boss and your boss is a bully. Your boss takes up another four units of your energy. So let's say you're now down to three or four units of energy at the end of the day and you go home and maybe you're in a relationship you're not happy in. So another couple of units of energy. And then you look at your dining table and there's this pile of bills that are unpaid,

and you're not sure how you're going to pay them. So you're at zero. And now let's say when you go back to bed, because you've had a bad day, you have a sleepless night. And so you only wake up with seven units of energy instead of 12. And then you go through this whole thing again. And so at the end of the day, you're in negative, you're in energy deficit. If you live a life like that, you're continuing to be an energy deficit. The deficit gets bigger and bigger and bigger. Unfortunately, that's how most people live their lives. Now, here's an alternative scenario. The alternative is you wake up with 12 units of energy. You're in a relationship you're really happy in. So you love seeing your partner.

So you get another two units of energy spending life with them. You then eat a good, healthy breakfast. You get another two. So you're up at 16 units. You love your work, whatever it is, you just love what you do. And so that shoots you up to 20, 22 units of energy by the end of the day. You're back with your partner. And because you love your work, you make enough money to pay the bills and you go to bed with energy equity. The next morning you wake up with another 12 units of energy. And so what I've realized is that it's super important to have energy equity. Now with that equity, you can then help more people just by being around them, because even your energy, your demeanor, your joy uplifts them. But when you're in energy deficit,

you think you're helping people, but you're bringing an energy depleted person wherever you go. You're actually draining on people. And then you end up doing things out of obligation, which is even more energy depleting. And then you eventually even start to have physical symptoms yourself. So that's how I look at life. And I've realized that energy equity is my number one value over and above finances or anything, because only with energy equity can I have good relationships and can I have the energy to actually handle difficult situations. There are going to be times that's going to require larger chunks of my energy, but I can only give it what they deserve. Like a spouse

can get sick or parents can be aging. But if you're an energy deficit, they feel like a burden. But when you're an energy equity, you can really help more people. I love that explanation. I haven't heard it put like that before. It's a beautiful concept. like that before. It's a beautiful concept. One thing I've always found fascinating is when people come to certain realizations that are the same, but through different journeys. Yes. Right. So I feel we've had similar realizations in life, but I've not had cancer. I've not had a near-death experience, but I've had my own life journey. I've had my own obstacles to overcome. So I kind of love that because I think it gives us confidence that,

well, maybe these are universal truths. Yes, exactly. That's exactly what I feel. And I am noticing more and more that people are stumbling across these similar truths. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to run through those life lessons. And I wonder if you could give me, or give my audience two or three lines on each one. Okay. But I think we've covered them throughout this conversation, but just to really land them with people, we started off with live life fearlessly. Yes.

You've already said quite a bit on that, but do you want to just kind of summarize why that's so important? So living life fearlessly, when I say it, I really mean being yourself fearlessly. Obviously when I say it, I really mean being yourself fearlessly. And so it is really important because by being fearless, it means you're doing, you're following your heart. You're doing what your soul wants. You're not following the crowd. You're not worried about failing. You're not worried about shame and all these things that keep our souls small. It sets you free when you live your life fearlessly, especially when you allow yourself to be yourself. Second life lesson, the importance of self-love. And in your TED talk, you said that you believe that one of the reasons you got cancer was because you did not love yourself enough. Yes. I tell people, love yourself like

your life depends on it because it does. And that little energy exercise I gave you, it is an act of self-love. So when you're able to do things that you love. Like if you, you have to love yourself to feel worthy enough to be in a relationship where your partner loves you. You have to love yourself enough to know that you can go and seek out work that's meaningful, that gives you energy. In other words, having that energy equity, either loving ourselves feeds our energy equity or doing things that gives us energy equity causes us to love ourselves. It's actually both. It works both ways. Wow. Lesson number three, the importance of humor, love, and joy. Oh, I love that one. Humor, love, and joy. It's so important and it's so healing.

One of the other things I've noticed is that people really take themselves seriously. People who are in the spiritual world, spirituality sometimes is taken way too seriously. I really think that humor needs to be something that needs to be highlighted in every practice, in medical practice, spiritual practice. I think patients who are in hospitals and clinics, they need to be given entertainment that make them laugh. It should be part of the healing protocol.

As I say, laughter is the best medicine. Yes, exactly. Okay. Lesson number four, life is a gift, not a chore. Life is a gift because, and again, this is something that I felt when I was on the other side. I realized that I had chosen to come here, even though I had been suffering and it felt amazing on that side, I realized that we choose to come here to experience it because we want to, we want the adventure. And it felt like if we knew that, and if we knew who we truly are, our lives would be very different. And most of us believe that we are victims of our lives when actually not. Maybe we can't control certain circumstances when we're children, but as we grow up, we have to realize and become empowered and learn to be empowered

that we actually have a lot more autonomy over our lives than we realize. Yeah. And I've heard you say that each and every one of your challenges are a gift. Yes. I love that. It's how I choose to look at my life. And I think that word choose and the concepts of choice is really, really important for each and every one of us because you don't have to choose to look at your challenges as a gift. You could choose to say, there's something I can do. You know, these things happen, these bad things have happened. Of course, my life is in the state in which it's in. And no one's going to necessarily say there's anything wrong with that, but it has a consequence, doesn't it? If you think you are a victim to your life, that has a consequence,

which is you're not empowered. Whereas if you choose, because you can change your mindset, you have changed your mindset from pre-coma to post-coma. You're a different person. You're in the same, well, I don't know if you feel you're in the same body, but it feels like there's a different energy in that body from what there was before you had that experience. Completely different. Yes. No part of me feels like the same person. Yeah. And in your TED Talk, again, you said something which I thought was so powerful. If you are currently in a challenge and it doesn't feel like a gift it means you haven't got to the end yet yes and i truly believe that because most people believe and are socialized

to believe that life happens to us that we're victims as said, and all these challenges happens to us. But in actuality, from the perspective of the soul, the grander perspective is that life is happening for us. It's happening to evolve us. Yeah. And lesson number five, which you've sort of covered already, the most important thing is to be yourself. It's to be authentic. What does that word authentic mean to you? It means to be unafraid to even be vulnerable, unafraid to be wrong, and to not be dictated by shame. Most people's biggest fear is shame, shame and embarrassment or being called out. But if we lost that fear, it would allow us to be more authentic. And don't fear failing. Don't fear failing. Because the fear of failing keeps most people stuck and locked. And also one last thing about that is that people often say, but fear keeps you

safe. I actually think fear keeps you shackled. Love keeps you safe. Oh, that's beautiful. Going back to this theme that you don't need to die or get near to death to learn what you have learned. There are other ways, aren't there, where people can experience similar things? There are other ways, yes. You know, I have a practice that I often do. I stopped doing it for a while, but I've started again quite recently. There's a chap called Irwin LaCour who lives in America.

He founded a company called MoveNAT about natural movement, but he's also really into breath hold meditation. Ah, okay. And that's his thing. But essentially without any hyperventilation, which is what Wim Hof teaches. Yeah. None of that.

You just do really slow, calm breaths, and then you take an inhale and you hold your breath. And basically from only being able to do one minute, within four weeks, I could hold my breath for four and a half minutes. Okay. My physiology did not change in just four weeks. What changed was my mind. So i learned how to really quieten my mind how thoughts and emotions use up energy yeah they do and the the more you're able to quieten your mind the longer you're able to hold your breath wow it really is so powerful but the point of bringing up that story is that when i'm let's say in the middle of a breath hold and it's usually first thing in the morning as part of my morning routine i'm just in my living room on in my pajamas in the living room floor, there can be moments where you feel just this connectivity,

this calm, this peace, and it's really, really nice. And again, I'm not saying it's the same thing at all, just to be really clear. I'm just saying that is a way that I can often experience and remind myself that, you know, this heightened awareness of what actually, you know, what actually it means to be alive. I love that. I love that you do that and that you encourage it or talk about it, teach it. And these are exactly the things we need to do. The breath work, the calm, the meditation, all of it. These are the ways we can do it without getting to the point of dying. Yeah, where you can quieten things down

so you can really start to hear. Yes. Right? And you can start to feel who you are and feel that you have a place in this universe, in this reality. Anissa, I think I could talk to you for hours about this. Me too. You've been brilliant. Like really, I've loved your questions so much.

Oh, I really appreciate that. Yeah, really. I think there's so much more in your book for people dying to Be Me. There's another book though as well, isn't there? Sensitive is the New Strong. I've got a few books, but the ones I highly recommend people is Dying to Be Me as the first book that tells my story. And Sensitive is the New Strong. And it really is about, it's for people who are sensitive, who are empaths, and it's about seeing that as a strength, not a weakness. When you feel everybody's emotions, very often people feel, oh, I'm too sensitive. I can't survive. I'll never make it. No, in fact, it's what we need in the world. People who are more feeling and sensitive and empathic.

Oh, I love that. And of course, you're making more videos down on your YouTube channel to help share this information, help people live better lives, which I think is amazing. Yes. To finish off this conversation, Anita, which I've thoroughly enjoyed and has been energy enhancing for me, I'm going to walk out of the studio with maybe double the energy I walked in with.

Wow. Okay, so I think that's a nice thing to think about as we end this conversation. When you were talking about the currency of energy, and you presented two possible scenarios. The first scenario where someone was in a toxic relationship, they don't like their job, they don't have a reason to get up. And you contrasted it with a person who wakes up where they really love their partner and they love their job and it pays them enough to do what they want to do in life. I want to end on that thought because there's going to be people

listening, Anita, who are in that first example, Right? There's going to be people listening who go, and he said, yeah, sure. If I had a partner who I really loved and I had a job that I loved and I made good money and I didn't have to worry about the bills, yeah, my life would be great. I'd have loads of energy, right? And they might be pushing back and go,

you've got that now, great, but I don't have that. That's why my energy is low. What advice would you give to them? So I would say that that thinking, that mindset, and I know that is what people, some people will say. So I'm so glad you brought that up. But that mindset, it comes with the assumption that we have to have that stuff first in order to

build energy equity. It's the other way around. Remember where I was, I was dying on a hospital bed. I was gone. After coming out of the coma, I had to build up energy equity and my life unfolded and the way it is today. So even when I came out of the coma, I didn't have the energy equity right away. I didn't have a job. My husband had lost his job because he had been taking care of me. to move from our beautiful apartment and move down to a much smaller home in a really not that great neighborhood because we couldn't afford it anymore. But I knew one thing, the one important thing was that my energy is more important than anything. So what I would say to people is, even if you're in the job you don't like, you're not in a great relationship or you're not in a relationship at all. Find the things that you can do in your life that actually build up your energy. Look around with that mindset. If you have that mindset that my energy is the most important commodity and right now I'm spending more energy than I physically have. So what can I do to feed my energy? And it could be anything from starting to switch up what you eat,

eat foods that make you feel better about yourself. It can be doing things that help you to love yourself more. Literally anything that can give you a couple of extra energy points a day, do something at lunchtime. As you build up that energy and the deficit gets less and less, you'll actually notice your life starting to change. Even baby steps. It's exactly like money. Start saving a little bit at a time. Yeah, I love it.

Anita, I've so enjoyed our conversation. You've had just the most incredible life experience. Thank you for sharing your message with the world. And thank you for coming on to the podcast. Wow, thank you for having me here and hosting me today. And thank you so much for this conversation and helping me share the message. I love it. Me too. Yeah.

Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life. And also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else. Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday Five. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I've been consuming, and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect.

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