Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - Why Running Isn’t Bad For Your Knees, How To Exercise Without Pain & Move Faster (Without Even Trying!) with Helen Hall (re-release) #542

Episode Date: March 30, 2025

Today I’m thrilled to welcome my dear friend, Helen Hall back to the podcast. Helen is a movement therapist, a running coach, a pain expert and one of the best coaches in any modality that I have ever come across. She has had a lifelong passion for analysing posture and movement, and her clients include elite athletes, whether they be runners, cyclists or premier league footballers, but also everyday folk who simply want to walk or run pain-free.   She combines objective clarity from the most advanced motion analysis technology in the world, with 46 years of visual experience and study in the field, to seek out the root causes of chronic pain and injury, that often seem resistant to standard treatment protocols.    In order to help more people than those able to visit her in person, Helen first shared her movement philosophy in her wonderful book ‘Even With Your Shoes On’. Since then, Helen has created a series of online courses for professionals as well as members of the public who want to move better without pain. Her flagship online course is ‘A Troubleshooting Checklist for Walkers and Runners’ and she has a brand new course ‘Stress Incontinence: An Alternative Approach’. Helen is offering 40% off for Feel Better, Live More listeners until the end of April 2025 – go to https://www.helen-hall.co.uk and use the code FBLM40.   Helen first came on my podcast on Episode 216 back in November 2021 and many of you got in touch to say how helpful the tools shared in that episode were.    In this conversation, we continue where we left off: We talk again about the vital importance of our head position – and how to become aware of how you’re holding your own head, if you’re struggling to know. We bust the myth that running is bad for your knees. We discuss walk-run strategies and how they can help all of us reduce injury, recover more quickly and run faster. We discuss why ‘foot wiping’ - a very simple practice that I do on most days - could help you move with more ease. We talk about the importance of spending time barefoot. We discuss minimalist shoes and why we are both big fans.   Since I began working with Helen she’s become a cherished friend, whose wisdom and insights cover much more than walking and running. Her message for this brilliant episode is straightforward and optimistic: think about your head, think about your feet – and don’t assume that you can no longer move without pain. She is an inspiring lady, this is an inspiring conversation, I hope you enjoy listening.   Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/feelbetterlivemore.  For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com.   Thanks to our sponsors: https://drinkag1.com/livemore https://vivobarefoot.com/livemore Show notes https://drchatterjee.com/542   DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Running, per se, cannot be bad for your knees. We're not so badly made that we should be injuring ourselves every time we move. So if somebody's got knee pain, I'm always wondering where their head is. On average, an adult head weighs about five kilos. And the further forward it is, there's a mass management effect going on in the rest of the body. For every inch further forward that your head would be if it was

perched effortlessly with maximum movement potential, you add the weight of the body. For every inch further forward that your head would be if it was perched effortlessly with maximum movement potential, you add the weight of another head. So don't stop running, find out why the knee is upset. It's the biggest joint in the body. Hey guys, how you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee and this is my podcast, Feel Better, Live More. Today's episode is one that I have decided to re-release because of the time of year. Spring is finally here. And of course, this means that many people are trying to get outside more and move their bodies, but some are unable to move as much or in the way that they would like to because of pain. And I know of nobody

better to help than my own movement coach, the wonderful Helen Hall. Helen is a movement therapist, running coach, pain expert and quite simply one of the best coaches in any modality that I have ever come across. Due to her incredible results, she is often booked up in clinic for months, and so to help more people, she has created a series of online courses for professionals and for members of the public who simply want to move better without pain. Her flagship online course, a troubleshooting checklist for walkers and runners, the six most common fundamental movement patterns that seem to need help has proved a big hit

for thousands of people all over the world. And due to huge demand, she has just launched her brand new online course, Stress Incontinence, an alternative approach, which explores pelvic floor functioning in a holistic way and helps people understand why what they are currently doing may not be working and what they can do immediately to start changing things. The usual cost of this course is £40, but for listeners of my podcast, Helen has agreed to give a further 40% off until the end of April 2025 using the discount code FBLM40. You can see all details at helen-hall.co.uk. Now in today's conversation, which first came out in March 2024, we cover a wide variety of different topics, including the vital importance of our head position, why walk-run strategies

can be so helpful, why foot wiping could help you move with more ease, the importance of spending more time without shoes on, and the incredible benefits of barefoot shoes. This really is a wonderful episode full of optimism, inspiration and practical advice. Think about your heads, think about your feet and don't assume that you can no longer move without pain. To start with this conversation, I wanted to talk about, you know, a common myth that's out there, right? Or what I think is a myth. Which one?

Which one? Is running bad for our knees? Oh, that one. Yeah. Well, of course, it's in the context of how you're going about doing your running. You might be being mean to your knees, but the question is why are you running like that, which might be mean for your knees. Running per se cannot be bad for your knees. I can't remember the last time I've ever, I've had people come in to see me with knee pain on both sides, but it's never symmetrical, one's always worse than the other, it can change between the knees and one has a tendency to start before the other. So given the fact that you're not hopping, you're running and for every left stride there's going to be a right stride. It seems odd that knees get such a bad rap, that the advice out there is to, oh you got knee pain when you run or after you run, stop running. Maybe rather

than say stop running and it's bad for you, look at how you're running. And even more importantly, what happens when you walk? Are you taking how your movement patterns are from your walking into your running? And running is just the tipping point of impact. So there's more impact forces when we run compared to walking. So is it just that, that is the negative in terms of knee pain? So they're walking, but the knee isn't particularly happy when they're walking, but they're not noticing it until they're running. If we zoom out for a minute, and if we assume that running is bad for your knees just for a moment as a thought experiment,

then it would stand to reason that every runner gets knee pain. If running is bad for your knees, or you should say the vast majority of people running should be experiencing knee pain at some point. But A, I don't think that's the case. Yeah, correct. B, from my understanding of talking to people who have gone and lived with hunter gatherer tribes, who have studied them, done research on them, we know that many adults in these tribes in their sixties and seventies are running regularly, quite long distances, and from what I understand, they're not complaining of knee pain. So that's a long-winded way of saying many people can run without knee

pain. So to me, it seems it can't just be the running that's causing it if we assume, which I don't assume, but if we did assume that running is bad for our knees. So you're quite clear then running is not bad for our knees. It makes no sense to me that running is bad for your knees. I've run all my life and knee pain has never been a feature. And I work with so many different types of athletes and just non-athletes and it's not knee pain that they suffer from, it's maybe ankle sprains or IT band syndrome or piriformis syndrome. And their evidence, if every time they run their knee hurts, running is bad for your knees. But it's generally speaking only one knee.

So for that individual who is getting knee pain when they're running, I guess a more accurate statement for that person might be, when I run in the way that I currently do, I'm experiencing pain in my knee. Yes. And the question is why? Why? Yeah. So it's just, it's, it's don't stop running. Find out why the knee is upset. It's the biggest joint in the body. People think that the hip is the biggest joint in the body. The knee is enormous and the top of the shin bone is like a big table top for the thigh bone to roll around on it and access all the different shapes that you need. And it's a quite stable

joint. It only moves in two dimensions or it should only move in two dimensions. And it's above a joint that only moves in one dimension, the ankle joint. But the problem is, it's sandwiched between the ground, which has 33 joints articulating with it in the foot, and the hip joint, which moves quite a lot in three dimensions which is attached to the pelvis which moves really quite a lot in three dimensions. So you look above and below that particular joint that hurts and think well maybe something is happening above or below or both that is negatively affecting the way that knee can manage. In our first chat, Helen, one thing we spent a bit of time talking about was this idea that the sight of the symptom is not always the cause. And I think I do the analogy to medicine like sometimes your eczema, for example, which is an issue with the skin, is actually coming from your gut.

And it sounds like you're saying the reason why this myth, or one of the reasons why it has been perpetuated and it's regarded as a truth by many, is because many people actually do experience knee pain when they run. That is true. You would agree with that. Yes. But it doesn't necessarily mean that running is the cause of the knee pain. And I think what you're saying is that the knee is in between some very, very significant joints, both above and below. And often there's an issue somewhere else, but your knee is taking the strain. Yes, it's generally speaking, in my experience, it's being overloaded.

It is the area that is bearing the brunt of either non-movement somewhere else or an overload. And you can go as far as you want. You can go all the way to the ground, to the feet, and you can go all the way up to my little soap box area, the head. So if somebody's got knee pain, I'm always wondering where their head is. It'll be my first thought. I wonder where their head is.

I wonder if they even know where their head is. Because so many people have written in since that first podcast conversation saying they solved their knee pain by paying attention to where their head was, discovering it wasn't perched effortlessly on the top of their head. It didn't just make their running easier, it solved their knee pain. So it's, their running is easier and pain-free. One of the things which landed the most with people during our first conversation was this idea that if your head's not on right, nothing good's going to happen. Right? So I want us to go into some new areas in today's conversation compared to last time, but I do think that's

such an important point that we should reiterate that for people who have never heard it before. So I think a lot of people are aware that for a variety of reasons, maybe our sedentary lies, maybe our smartphones and our laptops that our necks are often, or our heads are jutting out. We're no longer, I mean, if someone takes a side on view and takes a photo for a lot of people, they'd probably be quite shocked at what their posture is doing. How does that affect movement? I'm trying to take this away from running. How does it also affect walking? You know, why is it important that your head is on right. Yeah. So it's heavy. It's really heavy. On average, an adult head weighs about five kilos,

on average. And the further forward it is, there's a mass management effect going on in the rest of the body. So our entire being from when we are born as a blob to within three months we need to have head control. So when the baby is pulled towards the person via their arms, the baby should have control of the head and the head should come with. So it's all about this precious commodity, our sensory headquarters, and I always say no pun intended, but I always love it that it is sensory headquarters, and I always say no pun intended, but I always love it that it is sensory headquarters. It is, if we are upright on two little feet, which are very mobile, 66 joints down there, a quarter of the bones in the body, they are designed to

be flexible adapters and rigid levers. So they're busy down there on the ground helping us stay balanced and propelling us forward at whatever speed we want. Where our head, sensory headquarters, is so far away, in you a very long way away, in some not quite so far away, but it's still relatively far away. So the whole process of our movement patterning is to get from A to B in however, which we love the speed we want to do without face planting, without falling backwards, without falling to the side. So our vestibular system. What does that mean?

Vestibular system? Vestibular, it's our inner ear mechanics informing us of where we are in space, our orientation. So helps with balance. Yeah. So if you go, I always think if we go to an extremity, um, at one extreme, it's easy to understand everything. So the person who has no vestibular control, they think they're falling all the time. So they can be spread eagle on the ground and think that they are still falling.

It's a horrendous condition because you can't move. So our vestibular system, our inner ear mechanics help our head understand where we are in space, our visual fields help our head understand where we are in space, and our proprioceptive system, which is all the muscle spindle cells and the cells, special cells and the tendons and the joint capsules, which inform us on how our limbs are moving, how fast they are, all the forces to help us move around, because we're movement animals, without causing ourselves injury and without falling over. So our movement should be non-injurious and with anything that makes sense to me, we're not so badly made that we should be injuring ourselves every

time we move. We move and we are moving without face planting. We're moving without pain, without injury and without face planting because of everything that's happening up here in the head. So the head is heavy and there was an old way which was quite fairly accurate of understanding the effect of forward head postures. And if the forward head has a tilt, then you've got an asymmetrical load to the left or to the right as well. So for every inch, this is old school, for every inch further forward that your head would be if it was perched effortlessly on its head with maximum movement potential, you add the weight of another head. Hold on. For every inch forward your head is compared to what might be biomechanically

optimum let's say, you're effectively having the weight of another head and you've already said that heads are very heavy, the average head is around five kilos. So that's a lot of weight to be adding onto your body. It's a lot of load, isn't it? Yeah. And then the new science coming through adds a little bit more detail. So our neck, our neck spine, it sort of returns. It has a curve inwards, but it ends up fairly upright at the end so that the head can perch nicely on top and we can move it around easily. And we don't notice the weight of our head. If the end of your neck isn't returning to vertical and is leaning forward by 15 degrees, this 5

kilo weight is now its effective load through the neck spine and then through the rest of the body is now 12 kilos. You have that angle at 30 degrees and now the effective load of the head is 18 kilos. 30 degrees I measure regularly. So people come in telling me that they've got weak glutes and weak core and if they've got a forward head they are epically strong but they just don't realize how much energy they're wasting hanging onto their head. Yeah, there's a couple of points here for me. You have been doing this for three or four decades. People are coming to see you when they're desperate, when they've tried everything else.

And as well as your clinical expertise, you've also got your machine, Doris, which we can talk about again at some point, but you can very accurately measure what's going on in people's spine. And you're saying you regularly see people with a 30 degree position of the head relative to the rest of the body and that's adding an extra 18 kilos effectively load onto that body. Now, just for anyone who's needs another way of hearing that, just imagine you're going out for your walk with 18 kilos in your backpack. You would feel that. Heather Askin Well, if you think about what is a luggage allowance, typically on a plane, right? Exactly what I was thinking.

It's like 20 kilos, or, you know, easy to allow 23 kilos as their luggage, right? And look at the struggle people have lifting that up. One of the reasons I love your approach so much, Helen, is it's very holistic, right? It's about this idea that nothing in the body moves in isolation. The way something moves has an impact on something else. And I guess what you're saying is that whatever problems you might be having, knee, back, hip, foot, if your head is forward, before you get into the weeds, maybe it's worth looking at your head posture or your head position. It's often the elephant in the room because it's, if any of the following appear on the list of,

please can you help me with neck pain, shoulder pain, between the shoulder blades pain, mid back pain, lower back pain, piriformis syndrome, glute pain, hip pain, blades pain, mid back pain, lower back pain, piriformis syndrome, glute pain, hip pain, knee pain, calf strain, repetitive calf strain, plantar fasciitis, knee pain. Any of those, I'm thinking, I wonder where their head is. So pretty much I'm wondering where people's heads are on a daily basis, which is why I talk about it so much. Now, it doesn't mean necessarily that for everyone with those symptoms, sorting out the head posture or at least improving it is going to result in an alleviation of symptoms, but often it does.

Often it does. If it's forward enough, it will be relevant. And it will be relevant because if it's forward enough, it has an effect on the spine. It makes the spine curve into a C. It's like, imagine a Christmas tree decoration that's too heavy for its branch. And it bows the branch over. When our spine isn't in extension, so upright,

not deportment, I'm perfect with a book on my head. Although I'm already starting to sit more upright as you just said that. Our spinal extension offers us maximum movement potential. Upright gifts us the potential to move more in all planes of motion where that joint has more than one plane of motion. As soon as we flex our spine, as soon as we go into the slouch position, we have that same three-dimensional movement but the range is less.

So our movement potential is less. So then people get stuck in their movement patterns. They can't get out of whatever bias they have. Their head is forward enough to flex the spine, to effectively slouch the spine, to bend the spine over like a Christmas tree branch that's got this decoration that's too heavy. And now their movement range is limited, but they still want to run faster. So they're pushing their ranges of motion with a spine that won't actually enable. As soon as the spine is more extended, because it can be, then you can have automatically

a bigger range of motion without trying, without pulling things, without stretching yourself into a bigger range of motion. For me, in our first conversation, Helen, I summarized the two main essences that I get from your approach. One, which is noticing and being and enhancing the awareness, your own awareness of what your body is doing. Okay. And the second sort of principle is about efficiency. How can we move more efficiently? Now that's relevant to every single person who is alive, right? Because it doesn't matter whether you're a runner or not, we all move. We all, well, even if it's just to move to your car, move from your car to the seat at your office,

you're still moving your body. The more efficiently you can move your body, the better. Why would you not want more efficiency? More efficiency is usually going to result in less pain depending on the cause of the pain. I really like that idea of efficiency in it and it speaks to what you're talking about with the heads. So many runners, particularly at this time of year. This is the time.

When you know, people might have a marathon or the weather starts to get lighter and they're excited about moving into spring and summer. You know, they're trying to get out there and push harder to get faster. I did talk about some of those concepts with Stephen Seider a few weeks ago, the sports scientist professor from Norway, just a wonderful conversation about how often we need to not push as much basically. But I guess what I've experienced with you is moving quicker without trying. So you've improved my efficiency, my posture, all these things and so I'm actually finding, oh I feel I'm putting out the same effort but I'm walking quicker. I'm running faster but I'm not trying to. Yes.

I don't know if it's because I'm innately lazy or I simply want to adventure further. So if I want to go further, I better make sure that every movement I make is as easy as possible. So people, as a for instance, they'll do an ultra, but they'll pack their poles away until they're tired. And I'll say, no, no, no, keep the poles out. Start using them right from the get go. Because with effective use of poles, whether you're walking or running, it doesn't matter. You can take 75% of the body weight off your knees. There's a nice

big clue for knees. The Finns did an amazing study quite a few decades ago and they could get post-cardiac surgery patients back to moving more quickly to help the healing, to help strengthen the heart again by using poles because it became a whole body activity. Instead of their upper body being a sack of potatoes on their pelvis, instead of the upper body sagging and poorer circulation around the heart, making life, making the heart pump harder and making life harder for legs, making exercise harder, making people not want to do it, with poles the whole body starts to move, the arms start to engage, that now

the upper body is dynamic, you're not a sack of potatoes on the pelvis, now you're slightly more extended, so there's more circulation around the heart. And they had massive improvements in the outcomes for the cardiac surgery patients. And as a sort of accidental side effect of better movement patterns, a lot happier knees because these older patients generally with the chronic heart disease, it didn't just have chronic heart disease, they had other things like arthritis of knees. So lots of people want to run, but they can't get to that next stage without things hurting. So, it's not the running that's causing the pain, that they're already in trouble even just moving around.

I want to talk about ego, right? And you must see this a lot. I feel it a lot too. You feel it a lot. Yeah, you're a human being, right? Yeah, we all suffer from ego. But you said that a lot of ultra runners, and first of all, perhaps for people who don't know what an ultra is, could you just expand what is an ultra?

Well, it's anything beyond a marathon. But the purists will have you believe that, well, you must have hit 30 miles. It can't be 26.3 miles, but technically an ultra. So a marathon is 26.2, technically anything above that is an ultra. But people in the business, as it were, don't really consider it an ultra till it's 30 miles. And more. said that in ultras, a lot of people won't use their poles until they're tired. Now, it's really interesting because I think ego gets in the way of humans achieving their potential in all things in life. So let's take movement for a minute. That's one example. Of course it may not just be ego then, there may be other reasons, but I'm sure for some

of them they will consider it, well, that's cheating. I'm not going to do that until I absolutely have to. There's run walk strategies. Oh, that's a big one. For frankly, park run, half marathons, marathons. But people seem to have this reluctance. They think it doesn't count unless you run the entire way. Now, I've learned a lot about run-walk through my work with you over the last, what, over four years now, Helen. But you still hear this stuff, you know, I'm not going to run a marathon. I'm not going to do a marathon unless I can do the whole thing. That's good run the whole

way. But if we make the evolutionary case for running, and we think about humans as persistent hunters, right? We weren't, yeah, sure, we could cover 20 miles, but we weren't running the entire way. You know, we were tracking an animal, we'd run a little bit, then we'd stop, we'd have a look, we'd probably hide, whatever it might be, right? So, I don't know, it talks me about ego and how that gets in the way of people reaching their full movement potential. Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show. Nutrition can often seem really complicated. We get confused about what exact diets we

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the habits that hold you back. What many of us don't realise is that our behaviours follow our beliefs. So when you change your beliefs, and my book will show you how to do that, you'll spend less time having to think about your habits because they'll happen automatically. Make Change At Last, the number one Sunday Times bestseller is available to buy now all over the world as a paperback, ebook, and as an audiobook, which I am narrating. back ebook and as an audio book, which I am narrating. And if you've not got your copy yet, what are you waiting for? I worked with a lovely lady who, she needed to get a certain time at the London Marathon to qualify for world championships.

Okay. So a good runner. She's to qualify for world championships. Okay, so a good runner. She's going for the world championships. Well, in her age group. So that's not to dismiss her achievements at all. She was a regular person. She wasn't an elite athlete. She's not a pro athlete. She just loved her running.

And she was going to be able to, for her age group, qualify for world champion of, and it wasn't in marathon running, it was just an activity, running activity. And she just needed this time. And the time was four hours, 30 minutes, which is a nice, it is a reasonable time. And she was 60 years old. So it's, to put in context, there's an age group and this is a reasonable time. It's not super fast and it's not slow. But four hours 30 is a pretty good going time, I would be thrilled if I did a marathon in that time. Now. So it is, there's always context and there's always, if you Google average times, Google

will put us into a very bad place when we talk about what we should be doing. Again, this is ego. So anybody who finishes a marathon is completely brilliant because it's a very long way. And those that finish it in a short time, as we've said before, the party bus is at the back, the heroes are at the back because they're out for so much longer. The ones who are done and dusted in all endurance events in the shortest time, yes, they work harder. Well, and it's not even, they don't work harder, they're more capable, they get the job done quicker, they may be more efficient, and actually it's the people at the back that are working hardest of all

because they've got more repetitions and they're getting more and more and more fatigued. So that's to caveat anybody who gets upset that 430 is a reasonable for some that would be you know the pinnacle but it has to be in the context of what we're talking about. So with this lady she needed that time to qualify and she had an Achilles injury and she hadn't been able to train and the marathon was now two weeks away and she'd all but given up hope. So we looked at why she had an Achilles problem. It wasn't a difficult problem, but she hadn't done enough training. And I said, right, okay, well, do the, put the stimulus in to help the Achilles.

The Achilles has been overburdened. There was nothing wrong with the Achilles. She was leaning on it. So she was only leaning that way towards that side. So the other side was basically having a bit of a holiday. So we put input in to help her get to more upright viewed from the back. So she wasn't leaning forward, she was leaning to the side.

And so that alleviated the load of the Achilles. And then she said, well, but I can't, you know, I can't, the further side run was 11 miles and that was months ago. And I said, right, okay, so we walk run, don't worry about it. So do repeat that 11 miles, but let's do a walk run strategy. So, every, let's, and we worked it out with how she felt. So we experimented a little bit while she was with me. And I think we started with a three minute run and a one minute walk. And she was golden. She went off that weekend and she completed

11 miles. She hadn't run for about three months. She completed 11 miles with amazing alacrity because she didn't feel tired at all at any point, even though she hadn't been done any training and there was no Achilles pain. And I said, and she said, well, of course, there's only now one weekend left. I feel as if you're going to tell me I should just relax and rest, but my brain won't let me. I will stress. And so there's always this weighing up. Yes, for some people, a taper starts quite far back and you just keep them moving. For others... Can you just keep them moving. For others... Can you just explain what taper means?

So when you've peaked for whatever event you're doing, you've done all of your training and now you're resting your body so that you start when you're on the start line fresh and you're not tired. So many people arrive on the start line and they're tired. And this is overtraining and it's often the precursor to an injury. So by all logic, she should have rested, should have. But her body would have been in such a state of nerves and anxiety because of the worry that she hadn't done enough that for her brain space, for her mental calmness, she needed to go out the following weekend. And so I said, okay, so if you're going to go out, go with less running and more walking. So from memory, I think she flipped it. So I think it was

maybe two, one. Anyway, it was less and she completed 17 miles. Two minutes running, one minute walking. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. Something like that. It was less than before simply because we needed to make sure that she wasn't instantly going into overtraining. Was she resistant to doing walk running? Because I know you've had clients before who were very resistant. Was she resistant to doing walk running? Because I know you've had clients before who were very resistant. Was she resistant or? She was at that point, she was willing to give anything a go.

So she's open to it. So when people have a need to let go of ego, they will let go of ego. And then progress can often be made. So she needed to do whatever it took because there was now hope. The carrot was dangling. She'd had no pain after 11 miles. So, she gave it a go. She went off and she did 17 miles. She didn't get tired and she didn't have any Achilles issues. This is after a few months of not running at all. Not running.

Right? Because of an injury. Couldn't run. Yeah. a few months of not running at all because of an injury. So she does 11 miles one weekend, 17 the next weekend using a run walk strategy. And then the next weekend was the marathon. So she had a strategy because she'd worked it all out for her timing to be able to access this qualification. So it was like, well, okay, we'll put it all out on the table, do everything you can and see what happens.

And she had on her back, she had a little note saying, because so many people, when you're walking, and I'm used to this, you can do it, you can do it. And I'm walking and I'm thinking, I know I can, this is my strategy. And thank you. And I'm walking and I'm thinking, I know I can. This is my strategy. And thank you. And I'm always thanking everybody. Yeah.

Before my London marathon a couple of years ago, I did a few half marathons. And I remember, like, I think I was on a 5-2 or something, five minutes running, two minutes walking. And when you walk, people are like, go on, mate, it's all right. It's all right. You know, push through. You can do it.

And it's coming from love from those guys guys because we're conditioned as a society. That. Aren't we? To think that I, you know, I can't help but think this is more of a Western than an Eastern thing, genuinely. And I say that having grown up being exposed to both of these cultures, Indian family background at home, born and brought up in the UK, going to school here and growing up here. But I don't know. I don't know. It seems like you've got to push hard, you've got to work hard, you've got to leave it all out there on the table, though it didn't count.

Yes. And I'm moving away from that now in my life. I'm like, you know, I'm tired of that. I don't want to. Why? Why does everything need to hurt? Wouldn't it be amazing to live in a world where on these big events and you saw people walking, it'd be like, yes, well done. That looks like a great strategy. You look as if you know what you're doing.

Bravo! With the walking. That would be, I would think I've arrived in heaven if I ever saw that. We'll get that, we'll get that, Helen. Yeah, we're just going to get the message out. So this lady, oh my goodness, she puts a sign on her t-shirt, just a wonderful lady. She puts a sign on her t-shirt saying, run, walk strategy. And it was to warn the runners behind her, don't get too close because at random moments

to you, but on a strict schedule for me, I'm going to stop running and go into a walk. So don't be right behind me. Don't be clipping my heels. It's very bad form anyway to clap anybody's heels. So she had this strategy and she did five minutes run, one minute walk throughout the entire marathon. And she wrote to me and so not only did she blast her goal time out the water, so she did it in, I think from memory

it was four hours 19. So she was- She beat the qualification time by 11 minutes. Easily. Had she ever done walk running before? No. No. Okay. So she does walk run. Did you say five, one, five minutes running, one minute walking? Yeah. Okay.

So her average pace was epic. And she wrote and said, it wasn't just that she had qualified. It was the experience of the last six miles. She said, I had so much fun on the last six miles. Who says that in a marathon? Who says, oh, the last six miles, oh, it was so much fun. People don't say that. The last six miles is generally, it's hard. You know, you've, you've hit the 20 mile mark. There's another six miles to go. It doesn't seem like much, but when you've done 20 miles already, it's a lot. And so, it's degrees of hard work verging on torture for many. And lots of people are in pain. And she enjoyed it because she wasn't tired.

She wasn't in pain and she wasn't tired because she had been recovering as she went. And this is the point that the ultra-distance runners, the endurance athletes, and not athletes, pro athletes, but just people who bumble around all day. For me, the longer it takes, the better it is. I've been out having a longer adventure, having more fun, more bang for buck as far as I'm concerned. So I'm very happy to be out all day. And as long as I'm not getting lost, which is very common, but that's beside the point. So you're out all day, you're enjoying yourself and you're recovering on the hoof. And the science has now caught up with what

the endurance athletes have always known that you think you can't take another running step, you walk for a bit and suddenly you can run again. So you walk run. When you're off-road the terrain tends to put you into the ability or the common sense to walk that hill which you would expend way too much energy running if you were to run it when you still got a very long way to go. So endurance athletes doing an ultra will walk sections where they know that if they ran it, it would be inefficient because they would be more tired. They can get to the top of the hill with less energy if they walk and sometimes faster than if they ran. I have overtaken uphill runners when I've been walking because they're so tired, but they're wanting to run this every step.

It doesn't count unless you ran it. It's funny to think where that came from. So the amazing book, Endure by Alex Hutchinson, the science has caught up and has told us that we are recovering. Our muscles are literally healing whilst we're walking. Not when we've stopped and put our feet up and had an ice bath or an Epsom salts bath or whatever rocks your boat. You are recovering and healing whilst you are walking. So you can still be making progress within your body, making progress in the event whilst putting one foot in front of the other. So don't stop, don't stop and stretch, walk, walk it out. If something hurts, go into a walk.

If you feel tired, go into a walk. The answer is always keep moving, go into a walk and see what happens. You've had athletes, haven't you, break four hours at marathons, or three and a half hours, even those sort of times using run walk strategies. Which I think people who are in the running world would go, really? Really? Because your average pace remains high. You don't get that sudden fatigue where it all starts to go downhill at the end. Yeah, which is less speed for more effort, the epitome of inefficiency. Yeah, you know, I often talk about the impact of chronic stress on the bodies and the way

I often explain it is through the lens of something I call the stress threshold. Right, so assuming that you wake up fully rested and calm and you're feeling good, you're quite far away from your stress threshold. But throughout the day, you accumulate lots of doses of stress, what I call micro stress doses, and bit by bit, they're getting you closer and closer. At some point, the last hit of micro stress takes you to and beyond your stress threshold, which is when you shout at your partner, you snap at your kids, your back goes into spasm, your neck goes, whatever it might be. And we think it was the last thing that happened that was the problem, but it wasn't the last thing

that happened. It wasn't the email you got at Friday at 4pm. It was the fact that you'd been getting closer and closer to your stress threshold. So when I hear you talk about run-walk strategies for, you know, anyone frankly wants to go on a hike in the hill at the weekend or they want to do a marathon or a little adventure, whatever it might be. That's the thing, isn't it? If you think about it through a work day, if work was really busy nine to 11, you're accumulating stress and tension. If you were able to take a 15-minute walk around the block at that point, you just decompress a little bit. So you're staying, you're constantly doing something that's keeping you away from your stress threshold. But if

you work through, work through lunch without a break, you're going to be much more reactive and problematic in the afternoon. It's the same kind of thing, isn't it? It's a great analogy. It's a really good analogy because if you keep going, if you keep running, because you think that you should be running because you've gone for a run. If you keep running, you will fatigue. Everybody will fatigue at some point. Even Kipchoge will fatigue at some point. But by backing off that different gate pattern where everything comes off the ground and now you have energy expenditure in shock absorption

because you've got more landing forces to mass manage so and you're landing on a little itsy bitsy bit of foot and propelling off that same itsy bitsy bit of foot whereas when you're walking there's always one there's always one footing in contact with the ground you're never free of the ground. So if you keep going, you will fatigue and then you've fatigued. And that's when injuries happen. So now you're operating from a state of, well I'm tired now. So now if you keep in going, there's degrees of more tired. Whereas if you start the walk run strategy, don't wait until you're tired.

Don't do anything waiting, oh, I'll do that when I'm tired. Start as you mean to go on so that you don't get tired. That's the point. And it can be equal, so there's lots of one-one. And mostly people think that they should run more than they walk. But I frequently suggest to people they walk more than they run. And it can be a lovely recovery set so that you walk for nine minutes and run for one. Just loosen up but don't overly stress the system. And that's still a really great way to recover from, you know, a harder interval session, maybe on hills. So there's no rules apart from... So for me, the only rule of thumb is, because it's always a heuristic, isn't it?

So the rule of thumb is avoid doing it continually. Even walking every single step of the way is hard because it's the same activity. So when I walked a hundred kilometers, it was much harder than run walking the hundred kilometers. Because... We want variety. Yes, the body switching it up and changing gears, the body enjoys because you get into this less repetitive, almost like an RSI, almost like repetitive strain, the same thing over and over again. The brain switches off, it gets tired. As soon as the brain's tired, the body is tired. So by keeping

switching it up, it's easier on the body. It's easier on the brain, which is of course in control of the body. Yeah. It's a bit of a soapbox. Thinking about what we celebrate in society and how that cultural conditioning impacts how we think and how we operate in the world, what else do people celebrate at the end of a half marathon or a 10K or a marathon? It's that person who does look as though they're done, they're hunched over, they can't do anymore, but they're sweating and they're pushing through. And I would be celebrating that again, well done, mate, well done, mate, you can do it. And again, I'm not saying we shouldn't celebrate that, but wouldn't it also be great if we

gave the same level of celebration to that person who's still looking calm, cool, collected at the end in really good posture? I mean, as you know, I spoke to Elliot Kipchoge a couple of years ago on this podcast, one week exactly after he broke the world record at that time. And for people who don't know, he's still the only person to have run a marathon in under two hours that we know of. And that was in, you know, certain conditions. It doesn't count as an official world record, all that sort of stuff.

But one thing I said to him, I'm pretty sure, and one thing I've always enjoyed about watching him, is that to me, he never looks as though he's trying. Even when he was breaking his world records, right? And just over two hours to do a marathon. I'm pretty sure, because that was in Berlin from recollection. He didn't look at the end as though he was pushing through. He had his Kipchoge smile on, which he often does when he's in pain, but he looked, his posture was great, relaxed. It is a point of principle. And you could argue pride, but it's the principle of if you know how to use your body well,

you better make sure you're still doing it when you're tired. Because if you're not using it well when you're tired, it's harder. So as a point of principle, my goal on anything I do, I need to look the same at the end as I do at the beginning. It's easy to look great when you're fresh. And it does you no good service to allow your body, allow yourself to go along with the feeling within your body of fatigue. So allow yourself to slump, allow yourself to feel heavy,

allow your legs feel heavy, so you're dragging them along. But that is making life harder. I did a little skit on Insta because this comes through as questions. I'm really good until mile so and so and then I collapse. Okay, well, number one, walk run strategy so that you hit that fatigue level either never or later. And number two, know what you're doing. And it is people get closer to the ground, their knees bend, they're kind of squat running, their arms

are flailing all over the place, their head hangs forward, we already know about the weight of the head now, so they're carrying a, I don't know, 30 kilo backpack whilst they're absolutely exhausted. So it stands to reason that things are now harder. But if they could just find that that small amount of mental effort, it's not physical effort. You lose the physical effort. It's the mental effort to, okay, where's my head? I want to find that lovely wibbly wobbly place. I can do the groaningly good.

So I might, as I run, press my hands on my upper chest and drag the skin down. And it's like that opposition reflex we see in dogs. You push, I push. You pull, I pull. You pull down and so often in people you want to push against that traction pulling down and instantly you're in this position of maximum movement potential, easy movement. You are less heavy on your feet and you can continue even though you're aware that you're tired. You're moving more freely within your fatigue and you are faster for less effort even though you're tired.

I want to direct a question to somebody who is listening because we absolutely someone, and I've got someone in mind who I know who listens to this podcast, who probably wouldn't consider run walking because it doesn't count. It's not running, right? And so my question to that person or to anyone, let's say, because we're coming into marathon season, so of course, most of my listeners are probably not doing marathons, but there's quite a lot of them who are. I've got a question for those people. Let's say you want to do a marathon in four hours, 30 minutes for argument's sake, and

you think you have to run it. What would it look like for you if you did a run walk and you did it in 430 and you enjoyed the whole experience and the last half an hour was actually really good fun? You could take it all in. You weren't struggling and pushing compared to running all the way, struggling in the last six miles, it being painful. Yeah, people cheering you on. What if you were to get the same time, right? 4.30, but one was done effortlessly, relatively, one was done really enjoyably, but the other one was done pushing and it was a struggle. How would that feel? And then, and I think this is a wider point over the

run walk strategy and walking in general, is what's the recovery for you going to be like in the aftermath of that marathon? Because you can be damn sure if you've pushed hard, it's going to take you quite a few weeks to recover. But if you've run walked, your recovery is going to be a lot less. What do you say, Helen? Today's episode is sponsored by Vivo Barefoot. If you've been listening to my podcast for a while, you will know that I am a huge fan of Barefoot shoes and believe that everyone at some point in their life should try wearing them. I myself have been wearing Vivo Barefoot shoes exclusively now for over 11 years, well before

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People think about strengthening their arms in the gym or other body parts, but your feet muscles are some of the most important muscles in your body. They help you walk, interact with the ground and balance. So now that spring is finally here and many of you will be trying to get outside more and move your bodies, why not give Vivo Barefoot shoes a try? One of my all time favourites is the Primus Trail, which come in a variety of different colours for men and women, and although I've been wearing them for many years now, I do think that the Primus Trail are a great shoe to start off with if you're new to barefoot shoes.

So why not make 20, 25 a year, you give them a go and don't forget it is completely risk free to do so because Vivo offer a 100 day trial for new customers. So if you're not happy, you can just send them back for a full refund. If you go to vivobarefoot.com forward slash live more, they are giving 20% off as a one time code to all of my podcast listeners. Terms and conditions apply to get your 20% off codes. All you have to do is go to vivobarefoot.com forward slash live more. All logic points me in the direction of, well, why would you punish yourself for this concept of you

must run every step? I don't know where it came from. It certainly didn't come from evolution. So it came from somewhere. So mother nature didn't prescribe it. No. And man has manmade all of these events that we sign up to and then even when we know we shouldn't, we start anyway because we said we would and there's fear of missing out and fear of letting people down and so much fear around it instead of it just being this, well that's my goal and oh it wasn't to be. For so many reasons because life is messy. This linear life that we all think we live in, it certainly doesn't exist in my world. I have a very messy

life, my universe is a complete chaos and I enjoy every moment for what it is. So there's no, every time people get a t-shirt or a medal or any kind of post-event pack, it doesn't, it isn't given to you on that, did you run every single step? Is it engraved on the back? Oh, well done. You did that for us 30, you ran every step. Nobody cares how you got there.

You got there. That's where the applause is. You did this, you ran every step. Nobody cares how you got there. You got there. That's where the applause is. You did this. You started here. You finished there and all glory to you if you managed to finish it. All glory to you if you managed to even get to the start line, frankly. And, and then, then it's how you punished yourself, how you used your body with innate kindness. You know, some would argue that running a very long way isn't very kind. But that's how you do it. And it depends on who you are. So for some, that brings them great joy.

For me, it brings me great joy. It's my most favorite thing in the world to go out for an adventure. So I don't care how long it takes me. But how you approach it and how you navigate getting from A to B then has rolling ramifications that can last, it can last years. You mean if you push yourself beyond what you are ready and capable of doing, yes, the human mind is very powerful. You can push through and finish the event and get the t-shirt and get the medal, but you may have 6, 12, 18 months of discomfort and injury and pain afterwards if you weren't

ready for it. Yes. So it runs the gamut from immense fatigue, irritability, unable to function with your job, unable brain fog, and extended periods through injuries all the way through to chronic fatigue. So it's not that that will happen, but it does happen and it happens with monotonous regularity and you just think if so many people, this lovely lady had a chat with one of her friends at the club and said, and who was injured and, and said, Oh, look, this, you know, remember I was in, I'm now running and I, I'm going to do the marathon. And, and he was, what did you do?

Oh my goodness, what did you do? Oh no, I couldn't possibly do that. I know. No, I couldn't possibly. I couldn't do run walk. Just blanket no. And so then it's not him per se, it is the world we live in that we are left feeling that we have this, we have somehow failed if we don't perform, that there's some kind of performance rule out there that makes no sense to me. And it doesn't really work with human bodies and how we move.

I think it's a wider point there for me, Helen, which is this idea that so many of us have have or subscribe to invisible belief systems that keep us stuck and trapped. And often I find it helpful for myself, but also the people I talk to, it's helpful to try and go more upstream and go, well, what belief must I be holding in order for this to be true? Right? So that lady who, by taking your advice, doing the run water strategy, she does the marathon in 4, 9, 10, 11 minutes faster than she needed, right? And she did it injury free, she enjoyed it. You would think by all logic that when she tells her buddy at the running club who's also struggling,

you would think that he would be, oh my God, that sounds amazing. Tell me more. You know, I want to learn that. So tell me what you did. How did you figure out your own strategy? But from what I understand the response was, no, I couldn't do that. That's a limiting belief, right?

That is a limiting belief. This applies to so many areas in life beyond movement. What limiting belief do you have? Right, where are you getting stuck? What must you subscribe to in order for this to be keeping you stuck? And I mean, this is kind of what I'm writing about for my next book, which is basically,

what if you go even further upstream and actually unpick that and go, well, what if I didn't believe that it only counts when I run? Well, hold on a minute. If I didn't subscribe to that belief, then there's a whole world of opportunity that is open to me. I might get out more. I might get out more. I might not be injured. I might not be as moody with my partner when I get back because I haven't pushed

so hard. And how many studies have popped out, especially since Covid, that are stating the things that people who move already know, that the more you move, the better your mental health. And it's almost, why is there another study? Studies keep coming out. We absolutely know this, but there's study after study after study after study and yet there are still more studies being done about if you move more, you'll have better mental health. We are movement animals.

To not move shuts us down on every level. It is we're not, so for me we're not a body moving, our entire being moves. So our mental health improves because it's our entire being that is moving. Our thoughts are moving and our body is moving and there is no separation. They used to think that the cerebellum which is the signal box of the brain which is one of my favorite areas of the brain because easy gains here. So easy. So the signal box of the brain was only for movement. Now they know it's for cognitive thought. And of course, because movement of thought, movement of body, they originated in exactly the same

movement patterns when we were a blob moving through to being upright. They come from the same origin. All of our movements of thought and body originate in reflexes, all of our movements of body and movements of thought are the same thing. They're not separate. But it's too big. In order to learn we chunk everything down, but then we forget to connect the dots back together again. And I think that if we can encourage more movement through run walk strategies, walk run strategies, just switch up the gears, do a couple of, not even a minute, 10 trotting steps. I have done many an Ironman marathon counting my steps. Okay, I'm going to do 50 steps of running. But it was all I could manage. So 50 steps and then I'd walk for 100. And then I gradually recover and I'd be doing 50 walking steps and 100 running steps.

So the walking helps you recover. Yes, your energy returns, not because you're not puffed out anymore. It's nothing to do with your huffing and puffiness. It's to do with the mitochondria being able to release the energy in the muscles for you to keep going. And for the muscle fibers, there are anti-inflammatory cells that start the work of dealing with the inflammation that's in the muscles as a result of the muscle work so that you reduce that inflammation as you move. Yeah. Let's go back to head position. Okay. Some people heard our first conversation. They were able to apply that look in the mirror. Just think about it when they were walking and go, oh my God, I've got my head forward. If I put it back, how does this feel? And they got improvement.

As you said before, sometimes their knee pain went or their foot pain went or their shoulder pain, whatever it might be, a lot of downstream consequences started to get better. But some people have in contact, who just say, I don't know where my head is. So for that person, how do you help them? Yeah, and isn't that extraordinary? So it speaks volumes for what might not be happening within their system, that they don't know where their head is. They can't find their head. So our body, our skin is our biggest organ,

and it has all sorts of receptor cells in it to feed information to our brain, so our brain so our brain has awareness. So when people can't find their head and there was there were many people, lots of success, happy stories which was just delightful and I hear what you're saying but I can't find it. I've got absolutely no idea where it is. How do you do that? I don't understand. They didn't even actually express that they couldn't find it.

They didn't compute the question. What do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean? Where is my head? I don't understand the question. It's a little bit like Helen, or I think it is. My entire life, you know, I've always been interested in health and fitness.

And I've said before, you know, when I was 13 or 14, I used to get men's health and read about all these exercises and do them incorrectly probably. But I always remember whenever anyone would talk about shoulder blades, like I almost switched off. I didn't know what they were talking about. Yes, I know, especially from medical school, I know anatomically where the shoulder blade is, what it does. I've learned all that, right? But it didn't land with me. And I think that's become clear over the last few months, hasn't it? Because I just didn't know where my shoulder blades were. So therefore, when I'm reading it and saying, oh, you know, what are your shoulder blades doing? I was saying, I don't really know. Like I don't know where my shoulder blades are. And I'm pretty body aware. So

for me, that was almost a dark zone, right? Yeah. And it's a disconnect. Why? Yes. So if you think about it doesn't compute and this is our most precious commodity and you see it in the mirror every time you look at yourself. So the head's the most precious commodity. Because it houses the brain without which we can't do anything. And they don't understand the question. So there is a disconnect within their system somewhere that enables them to even say that. So we use skin. Skin informs our being of where things are, is one of the ways. It's one of the

most productive ways. So I get everybody to lie on their back. Just lie on, lie on your back, if your head needs to be on a cushion for comfort because it's so far forward and you have no idea it's so far forward, which is why it's got so far forward, because you didn't know anything about it. So if you need to put cushions underneath your head for comfort, please do. Don't force yourself to lie flat on your back, because, you know, that's what we all should be able to do. If it's not comfortable, your brain is not going to be paying attention anyway. So get comfortable, lie on your back and feel your head

because it'll be touching something. Then we have the crown of the head. So I often say to people who don't know where their head is, who don't compute the question, touch the crown of your head and they'll touch the top of their head. And of course the crown is the squirrely-whirly bit of your hair, if you have any, or the bald bit if you don't have any.

So when you're lying on your back, it's where the top of the head meets the back of the head. So currently it's where my locks are tied up there. And if you press down there and wiggle it around in all directions, it's why massages at the hairdressers feel so delightful. There are so many proprioceptors in there for your sense of, oh, that feels nice, but you're feeling it. The point is you're feeling it. You use the word proprioception there. What does that mean for people who've never heard

it? Well, when you're moving, proprioception is the body's awareness of itself when in motion. I think what we learned in medical school was it's, you know, proprioception is an awareness of where you or your limbs are in space. Yeah, spatial awareness, yes. And there's a disconnect of spatial awareness if you don't understand the question of where is your head. So you don't know where your head is.

So the first thing for people who don't have that awareness where there's some sort of block is you could use skin. So you press on the crown, you squidge it around. Yep, lie on it. So the back of the skull has got inflammation. Oh, so hold on. You're on the crown, you squidge it around. Yep, lie on it. So the back of the skull has got inflammation. Oh, so hold on. You're on the floor. So the floor is giving the skin at the back of your head input that that's where I am. Your hand is going on your crown, which is giving that part of the skin input. This is where your crown is. That is what sending signals to

the brain saying, here I am. This is where these body parts are. Yeah. So you're making neuronal connections to oh my goodness this is my head and then you need to start the movement. So with you can still have your hand on the crown of your head and you want your head to be on something slippery. So I often use a document wallet underneath a piece of paper will do. So what you don't want is the movement of your head to be disrupted by traction between your hair, if you have any, and the surface that you're lying on. So have something slippery between your head and what you're lying on and then just start to

nod and tip your head back within comfortable ranges. And because your hand is on your head and your head is on something, you're getting all sorts of information about where your head is. Then you can start a rotation and you'll get a sense of how close your ear is to the floor, to one side versus the other. And the more you do that, the more number one, you get awareness of head. Number two, you start to realize that the head talks to the next spine. And as you nod, it kind of pushes the next spine backwards down to the bed. And you don't get a double chin.

You your your chin tissue gets retracted so that you get like a nice clean jawline instead of you know if you're if my head is forward and I just drop my my chin down I'm just for the purposes of the people listening I now have a proper double chin going on there but if but if I'm lying on the floor and I'm nodding and my neck spine is following, then I don't get a double chin. So many people in my experience don't put their head on right because they've told me that when they do that, they get a double chin and they don't like it. But they're only getting a double chin because the head isn't speaking to the neck, which

then won't be speaking to the thoracic spine, which then would mean that we don't get spinal extension. Okay. So let's just back up a minute. Right. So you said if you do this regularly, you're lying on your back and then when you're, at the same time, you're putting your hand on your crown and squidging the top of the, you know, the scalp skin around, that's also giving sensory input. Because that's an enormous tendon, if you like. Yes, there's a muscle there, but there's a lot of tendon. But you're saying we're getting information, but we're not getting...

It's not so much cognitive information, is it? Brilliant. Because this is what I've learnt over the last years of working with you, that it's not always cognitive, it's you're giving input to your brain. And again, this is where kind of with such a thought and rational thinking based society, right? That we want to explain everything, we want to know the reasons. But actually sometimes we just want to feel it more. We just want to be more. And I guess you're giving input to your brain. Is it fair to say it's almost you're giving subconscious input where you're no longer having to think

about it? Yeah. So it's a fundamental element of our movement patterning that our brain knows where everything is. That would seem to be fundamental. If our brain doesn't know where our left arm is, do we think it's going to move with us as we move? Probably not. And Helen, sorry to tendons, articulations throughout the entire body, you can't go out for a walk and with your thinking brain, my head's here, my shoulder's here, my hip's there, my knee's here, it's just simply not possible. So it has to be below the level

of consciousness on some level, I would say. Yes, exactly. It can't be cognitive because number one, it's so complex we don't understand it. It can't be cognitive, number two, because we're not spending enough time on the ground for our brain to be able to individualize all of the joint movements when when we're walking we might be on the ground for say 0.7 of a second. When you're running, say, probably maximum, generally speaking, on average 0.3 of a second, less than half that time of walking. So you can't micromanage your body cognitively whilst you move. And we don't need to, we're so well made.

All the fundamentals should be in place. That's called movement development. Unfortunately, it's also called infant development, which means it's boxed into a certain period of life and then dismissed as irrelevant. And now the science is showing us it's not irrelevant. It is relevant throughout our lives. Will Smith in the film Concussion, he has explained the science in a movie. And it's sadly real, you know, it's based on the reality of NFL concussions and the aftermaths of them.

So we know that the fundamentals of movement are with us our entire lives. They're like running in a lovely software background on which we build cognitive, more complex movement patterns. And some of us have some of those basic building blocks of movement slightly disorganized, which is resulting in certain movement patterns when we're older that are causing pain or discomfort, whatever it might be. Regarding this exercise, I want to make sure that people are getting this and can use it themselves, right?

You work in a very, I was going to say unusual way. Simple. A very, yeah, simple way. But, but I guess you tend to see people one-on-one who struggled for years, right? So they've tried everything and that's not to be negative to any healthcare professional at all. Every single modality exists because it helped someone and more than someone. So, you know, more than n equals one.

And so many people, of course, have seen people have got better and are getting on with their lives, right? Of course. So, but you're seeing people who, for whatever reason, those approaches haven't worked. For some reason. And you've also got this machine. So I'd like you to explain for people who don't know who Doris is or what Doris is. And then secondly, and I think this is a key, really key points about movements.

What I've experienced with you, Helen, is sometimes I'm doing the most in my head, the most unrelated movement, right? You've got me on Doris, you're measuring everything, you're seeing how my spine's moving and there's clearly an issue or I'm not accessing a certain movement. Then you have me on the floor and for maybe a few minutes, I'm doing some seemingly unrelated movements like the one you just mentioned about lying on your back and starting to give yourself input about where your head is. So you do that and then you go back onto the treadmill and suddenly you're moving completely differently.

Right? It's remarkable when you've experienced that because when you see that, it gives you a hundred percent confidence that I need to do that exercise five minutes twice a day for the next four weeks. Because I know that when I do it, automatically, without me thinking about posture or putting my head on right or whatever it might be, I'm moving differently. So could you help us put that together for the listener and also maybe share some examples of maybe some clients of yours who you did that exercise with and you saw an immediate improvement?

So Doris is, she is my teacher and I use her as both a tool to assist my thinking and to research hypotheses. She is the most advanced gait analysis tech in the world. There's only four, right? Well, there are more now, apparently. Yes, there's more. I think that there are still less than 10, but I think the 10th is about to be installed in India. I think that's the 10th is about to be installed in India. I think that's the 10th.

And so it's the most advanced gate analysis in the world. So I know that there's a treadmill, but there's also lots of other tech around it. You put stickers on me. What do those stickers do? Well, they just assist. Doris doesn't need anything for standing still. So she is more accurate than an x-ray, even

Doris has her limitations, up to 30 kilometres an hour. Nobody's ever reached anywhere near there. I had a couple of elite athletes who thought that they were going to know, I'm going to beat Doris and the furthest they got was 21 kilometres an hour and even then I thought that they were going to ping off the end. So she's more accurate than an x-ray for any speeds that we need to measure. And when she's, when you're standing still she needs no stickers. She only needs the stickers when you're moving. It's a point of reference. So she just needs guidance on exactly when you're moving, where

the pelvis is and where the base of the neck is. But you're what you're measuring like what my spine is doing as I'm moving. In three dimensions. So the side view movement of the spine, the left to right frontal plane movement. So anything that you can see from the baseline of a tennis court and the bird's eye view, the rotational movement of the spine and the pelvis and simultaneously, not just the forces through your feet, but the pressures of you through your feet. So you have impact forces and you have your center of mass travelling through the feet.

To me at least, Helen, yes, Doris can do static measurements, and you've said that they're more accurate than an X-ray. But then one of the problems I would say about X-rays or CT scans or MRIs is that they're done whilst you are still, generally speaking, right? So you're actually getting a representation of what's going on whilst you're moving, which is, I think, really, really key. I think that what's interesting about bodies is what do they do when they're standing still, then what happens to them as they move at a variety of paces. Because wherever your frame is, when you're standing still, as you move, everything should be moving, everything should change. Nothing

should stay the same. So it's, it's, it's gifting us to the, the importance that there is importance in anything that is measured statically, because that is your frame. So it's not to negate anything, it's to say, okay, yes, that information is really useful. Then now we need to layer on top of that. What happens as we move? Does that all stay the same or does it change? And actually, one of the things that you found with me over the past few years is that initially at least my body, I think from recollection was better running than walking. Yes, so many. So many, explain that.

Why would that be the case? Because when you're running, you're free of the ground. So anything within the remit of a contralateral movement, so opposite arm and leg, twist through the system, which is our innateness as a human. So we're the only mammal that twists within the field of gravity. We don't have to bounce up and down like a kangaroo or a rabbit. Neither do we have to slither like a slithery thing. So we twist in the field of gravity because we have this transverse plane twisting rotational element.

So that's what if someone's imagining walking as their left foot goes forwards to keep going there like that, well, their pelvis is actually orientated to the right and as their right hand comes through, please correct me if I'm wrong here Helen, but what your chest is is relatively orientated to the left. So it's easier for if you're listening to just do it. You stick one arm in front of you and that arm turns your rib cage away. You feel that? Yeah, am I doing that? Yeah, turns it away. So it doesn't, it shouldn't pull you towards it because then can you feel how tight that is? So if the reaching arm doesn't turn your way, how do you reach? So

if you block conversely, if you don't let the rib cage move and stick your arm out at 90 degrees at shoulder height, stick your arm, can you feel that you don't get anywhere? So forward, stick it forward at shoulder height and you can't get anywhere, you can't reach or reach is limited until you allow the rib cage to rotate away from it. Okay, so we're the only mammal that's contralateral. And then the opposite leg will do the same. So the opposite, so if I've got my left arm forward, my right leg forward, my right leg is turning the pelvis away from it. Only I see plenty of

palvises rotating into the lead leg, which is why there are so many problems. Okay. So we have this twist in the system where the opposite arm and leg are doing something at the front and the opposite arm and leg are doing something different at the back. And it is that twist through the system that when you're standing still, you might only have a rotation in one direction. The whole only have a rotation in one direction. The whole spine might be rotating in one direction. And then as you move, you don't go anywhere near that direction. You only go away from that direction.

You only go in the opposite direction to that and you return to it. So the point being is where you stand is part of the story. But not the whole story. It cannot be the whole story because we're movement animals. So it's okay. Well, and it's not necessarily what you think is going to happen. So you can look at somebody statically and think, oh, I hypothesize that so-and-so is going to happen. But it often, I'm often surprised, I didn't

expect that. I didn't. And I've seen, I don't know, thousands of people. I didn't expect that to happen. Oh my goodness. Every day is a learning day. So there are so many strategies within a system. This is why we can't cognitively plan everything. We have so many people call them compensations. And I think that's a little bit mean. Our body is so amazing. These are amazing strategies. So it stands like this, but it doesn't move like that at all. It has a strategy to do something else entirely to make movement as easy as possible for that person with that context. One of the things we discussed in our first conversation was my emergency appendectomy

when I was seven or eight years old in India and how our feeling was that that was still influencing my movements significantly as an adult. It was very tight, mucky, painful in there and we could actually look at all my movements and pretty much everything was done to avoid me closing that scar down. So I would do anything. I wasn't even aware of, I'm only bringing this up because you're saying the body is amazing. My body is phenomenal because it was saying, Hey, I don't really want to go and compress that area because there was a problem there. There was inflammation there. There was pus there. You had an inflamed appendix. Maybe that helped me whilst my appendix

was inflamed. It sure ain't helping me now in my forties and so is in my movements. So it's really interesting, is that the body is amazing. The body will do whatever it has to do to keep you functioning and moving and everything works until it doesn't. Yes. And the brain has so many potential connections that some brain scientists are saying that really for anything human, the sky is the limit. So set the bar high. I would suggest to people set the bar as high as you can because they haven't found the limit in human potential, which is why of course they have to keep rewriting the Guinness Book of Records. So this isn't just, you where, so somebody would come in and lots of the things that would have helped their friends, so their friend has said, oh try stretching, because it helped them and it helped a myriad of their friends, because stretching works for many as does strength and conditioning, as do pain

meds, as does surgery. What else is there out there? As does acupuncture. There are so many as does meditation, as does massage. All of these modalities help many people, which is why they exist. And then when it hasn't helped, so this is in the context of, I've tried everything, but of course they haven't, they've tried what is commonplace, what is commonplace. And what isn't commonplace is, in my experience, is looking at movement from the point of view of,

well, have you got all of your fundamentals? Have you got organized movement at the level of just baseline? Does the brain, in terms of this awareness, spatial awareness, does the brain understand top, which is, of course, the head, bottom, which is the coccyx, not your feet, which is of course the head, bottom which is the coccyx not your feet, left which would be all the way to the extremities of the hand and the extremities of the foot and right again to the extremities of that side the hand and the foot and front and back. Does the brain have clarity, not cognitive clarity, innate fundamental spatial awareness of that organization

because to go back to the question, why do people run better than they walk, walking is contralateral movement, which is the front of the body is doing one thing, the back of the body is doing another, the top of the body is doing one thing, the back of the body is doing another, the top of the body is doing one thing, the bottom of the body is doing another, and you're doing it on a twist, so left and right are on a diagonal. You can't access that at any level of smooth efficiency if the brain doesn't have fundamental spatial awareness of all of those things that I've listed already. When you're running, however,

because no foot is in contact with the ground at some point, the body is free. The body is now, there's no reference point. The body is free. So any limitation in this fundamental movement pattern. So a common one I see is the shoulder girdle is really tight. So the shoulder girdle doesn't actually move when they're walking. And I will push the pace, and I do this so often, I will push the pace, so I'll ask them to walk,

and everybody can do this. So walk freely, just walk normally, not as if anybody is looking at you. And you can do a selfie on a mobile phone, so you walk. And you'll just walk a few paces away from camera. So what you need to do is start walking and then appear in the camera so that you get a flow for your whole recording. Then you do the same but now you're walking briskly. You're gonna be late, you're gonna miss the train but you're not allowed to run. So you're walking briskly and I do that if I suspect I'm not sure that that shoulder girdle moves. So when you're

walking easily maybe the shoulder girdle doesn't need to move. But if you're going faster we want shoulder girdle and pelvic girdle harmony. The way we move is the shoulder girdle is arm, collarbone, shoulder blade. That's your shoulder girdle. Its movements tell the thoracic spine, the rib cage area, what to do. The pelvic girdle is the pelvis and the legs and their movement feeds into the lumbar spine, the lower back and then they sort of meet in the middle and there's a little twisting action. It's a spiral actually. So really organized, smooth, coordinated movement is the harmonious cooperation between the shoulder girdle and the pelvic girdle. The girdles are where the gold is. So I might see somebody walk and I can clearly see the

pelvic girdle is moving because they're putting one stride in front of the other. And the shoulder girdle is muted and I think, well, what's all that about? So maybe it's muted because they're not going very fast and who needs to swing their arms if they're not going very fast? So I'll push the pace. So now their arms need to move, otherwise how are they moving? And what happens is the shoulders don't flex, but the elbows do. So the elbows bend, so the arm swings back and then the shoulder comes forward as soon as the elbow is underneath the shoulder, all that happens is the elbow flexes. So they walk with their lower arms. They walk with their legs and their lower arms, not their whole arms. So the issue with that is what?

So now the shoulder girdle is limiting the pelvic girdle because there's no freedom in the shoulder girdle. There is limited, it limits the freedom in the pelvic girdle because they move in cooperation. So it could lead to pain. It could be the reason for your pain and discomfort. In my experience, it is commonly connected with hip pain. Yeah, so pain and protecting our joints in general is, I think, something that concerns a lot of people. You know, they want to move more. And I know we cover this right at the top about that running is not bad for your knees. Maybe the way you are currently running might be, but if we can change that,

then it is not bad for your knees, right? Yeah. And to just follow that through right now, when you're running and you're not in contact with the ground, the shoulder and the arm doesn't need to swing from the shoulder anymore because you pick your arms up, then the shoulder girdle can move. So then it's a completely different picture. When they're walking, the shoulder girdle doesn't move, the upper body doesn't move, but the legs move.

When they're running, the shoulder girdle does move. So for some people like me, running is freedom. But the problem is, the effect of the not moving shoulder girdle on the pelvic girdle when you walk, and now it's not the running that is causing the problem. The hip pain comes from the way that they're walking, but now there's impact because actually they're moving better when they run. It's not just it's smoother. It's and that's why they enjoy it, but it hurts every time and they associate it with the run when actually it's the movement patterning at a fundamental level. Just so that this conversation is really practically useful for people, Helen, I know after the last podcast came out, so many people booked in to see you and not everyone of course

can come and see you for a variety of reasons. That's why you wrote your book, isn't it? And also you created these, is it six videos or these sort of videos on your websites, which is to basically help people go a bit deeper with this kind of stuff? To be efficient, so people don't have to travel and they can help themselves if they're willing to just play along with me. So some people will read and some people will need the visuals. There are videos in the book as well. But the goal is to help as many people as possible. And some people need an extra pair of eyes, but they can ask their partner to have a look.

They can have a look and see what is meant to be going on and they can't feel it. Maybe ask a partner to film them so that then they get the visual clue. So because that's another part of the brain understanding where we are, visual fields help enormously. I think in our first conversation, you were talking about one of your clients, a footballer from recollection, who basically didn't know his head was forward and you thought it was the club physios that might have told him because, no, no, it's my wife who noticed it.

Right. So, this is another thing for us that we can ask our partners because they're probably seeing patterns in us that we don't see ourselves. I love working with couples because you don't see you, but your partner sees you. From all angles. They don't see themselves, but you see them. So you get this cooperation between the two because, oh yeah, that he's always like that or she's always like, yeah, yeah, that's familiar because they don't know. Sounds like it can be dangerous as well sometimes.

It's always interesting. It's always fun. It's always fun. So, so yes, all of the tools are there. Even everything that is free, everything that I can manage to squeeze into a day on social media is to help as many people as possible to be efficient. Let's go back to that floor exercise for a minute for the person who doesn't know where the head is and wants to give their brain that awareness. I don't know if you have a particular client in mind, but I wonder if you could possibly explain, I don't know, a client who came in with pain and problems, you thought it might be their head. They didn't know where their head was. You gave them that exercise, they did it and

you put them back on Doris. Like, does anything come to mind? Yes. Always the most recent thing springs to mind because there are so many and my brain has to delete plenty in order to fit more in. So the problem was feet, chronic pain in feet and everything has been tried. So I don't need to go to everything. Because it's already been done. Yeah. So that makes, it's a joy for me because I don't have to sift through everything that might be obvious because that's already been done. Someone else has already done that. Another professional has tried that approach.

And there was a forward head of some note. So this person, what, middle-aged sort of? Well, of course I'm old, so everybody's younger than me. So I would say, I would say young. Okay, so someone came in, they had chronic pain in their feet, both feet or just one? Yes. So in both feet. And I hope he, if he's listening, no names, you'll know who you are. I'm sorry that I'm using you because, but you're, it's such a, what I saw was so commonly seen that you just think if more people could

just try, just give it a go, then they might be able to help themselves. So this client, you can see has a forward head posture. Did you put the client on Doris? Yes. So, and Doris was confirming that and other information for you. So, we've got clarity of degrees of how far the next spine is forward. So, we've got at least an 18 kilo head. Wow. Which is doing the Christmas tree decoration thing and pulling the spine over into a flexed

position. Okay. So I'm sure you saw plenty of other abnormalities as well, but you were thinking, okay, until we get the head better, let me not worry about anything else. That was pretty much it. That was it? Okay. Yeah, pretty much it. The obvious thing, because we don't need to be perfect. Who even knows what that is? So if there were things that were minor, the obvious thing was the view from the side. So we set about wondering why. And so he couldn't

grasp, he had tried to stand up straight because another physio had suggested that he stand up straight. So he was absolutely on the money, as far as I'm concerned, absolutely. And what was golden was he could do it, but he couldn't maintain it. So he could do it cognitively. That's the key. He could figure out, okay, this is deportment, this is organized, I am, but now I can't move.

Because it's not innate in me, I am pulling muscles around to create tension to hold myself upright. We should be upright without the tension because that's our best place for movement. And without trying. And without trying. So what is missing? What is a bit of a mess for upright to be not upright? Okay, so you identified the head forward posture, which another healthcare professional had also identified and tried to help him with, but for whatever reason, wasn't able to. So then you did what an exercise like the one we've talked about.

So lying on back for him to feel. So when you're lying on your back, even just your back is, I think the stats are 15 times the surface area of your feet. So a shed load more inflammation is coming into the brain about what's happening on the back in terms of pressures left to right and pressures along the spine. And of course this is the whole spine, isn't it? You're lying on your back. And we started with, okay, can you find your inner meerkat? One of my favorites. So a meerkat, we can all imagine and visualize a meerkat. A meerkat is on alert. So the eyes are level, the ears are level,

the jaws are level, they're ready. Everything is okay. Stand down. And you can relax. So in a meerkat, there's amazing video of fetuses in the womb performing what I call the meerkat, which is a trunk extension. It's your heels are digging into the ground, the heels of your hands, so you're standing up, the heels of the hands are pushing down,

the heels of the feet are pushing down, and that sort of pushing downwards pushes the rest of the body up and flexes your neck. So you end up in this spinal extension position in the book, it's sagittal cog, but that's a cognitive spinal extension. This is an innate within us. It's an innate fundamental. I call it. So he was doing this on the floor. He was doing it lying down and his spine wasn't moving. So his, his heels of his hands and

his heels of his feet were doing exactly the right thing, but his head wasn't moving and his spine wasn't moving. So then it's okay. Is it the head that doesn't know where it is? Is it the rib cage? Is it the pelvis? And it was the head and the pelvis. The rib cage actually knew, even though it was flexed and bowed over, it knew exactly

what to do. It was just getting not the right information from the head or from the pelvis, which actually was quite sweet because heads and pelvis cooperate hugely in our movement patterns. So we just got the head nod going, which got the pelvis nod going because wherever your pubic bone, wherever your nose goes, your pubic wants to go to. So if your nose is heading towards your toes, your pubic bone can head off towards your toes too and offer that meerkat look. So all we did was played with spinal extension lying down in the manner of pushing the crown of the head away and allowing the pelvis to follow in the same direction. And then he stood up and felt somewhat taller and we measured him

standing still and walking. So there was no, don't stand still and be anything. Just be you. Just stand however you want to stand. Just stand. And the difference in the flex, flexion of the spine was extraordinary. He had probably lost a good half of the load he was carrying with this forward head. So not all of that, but maybe 50% of that. Yeah, yeah. And it followed through into movement.

So without trying to move perfectly, without trying to walk perfectly upright, he was able to move better upright. It's the thing I get, the thing I've really learnt from all the work I've done with you, Helen, is that when you teach the brain, you remind the brain, let's say, where different body parts are, what they should be doing optimally, you start to naturally do them. It's in your DNA. You do it without thinking, oh, I'm going to do this with my wrist. I'm going to do this with my shoulder or whatever it might be.

It just starts to happen. Because it's in, it's how we're made. And what about his foot pain? Well, we don't know yet. It is because it comes on after 30 minutes. So we have to wait. We have to wait and see. There's going to be plenty of work to do. But before we can judge anything, we have to deal with the elephant in the room, which

is the posture overloading the soles of the feet. So you know, not every, I don't wave magic once. Plenty of people have got plenty of work to do before they get to where they want to be. But we unpick it from the point of view of, have you got everything you need in your body, innate in your body, for you to create the shapes that you want to create? Because it might be that you've got your tennis backhand is just really, no matter how hard you try, your tennis backhand just doesn't work. But do you, at a fundamental level, does your body, without you having to think about it, understand rotation in that direction?

Because it might not. Yeah, this is another point. It's just so huge. Like many people have a passion for sports, right? We can get sidetracked with running or walking or skiing or your tennis backhands, right? And it's not to say coaching in those areas isn't helpful. Of course it is. But sometimes we just don't have innately the movement that that coach is asking us to do.

It's just not within us. So it's how do you move? You know, I often say that good health, you know, 99% of health, frankly, more than that occurs outside the doctor's surgery. It's the same thing with movement, right? 99% of good movement is happening outside your sport. Yeah, you bring all of you to the sport. And so at a fundamental level, of all the fundamental movement patterns that we have, say by the time we're 10, of all of those, how many are organised and you will then use them in your sport?

You don't do these movements for your sport, you have the movements to enable the sport. An easy example is the rower who rows on a side of the boat. I don't know the words, I won't even attempt to. So he is a rower on one side of the boat and his spine is showing that he side flexed towards that side and his shoulder girdle is leaning towards that side and all of the good stuff. And he's injured

and they're saying it's because of the rowing and which can't be incorrect but it doesn't come about because of the rowing it comes about because of the shape he's making which put him on that side of the boat and his coach knows that if the guy on the other side of the boat was sick, he couldn't put this guy in his place because that guy doesn't have the movement pattern available to be on that side of the boat. We are good at what we start to do because we're good at that already because we have those movement patterns. And if we can just get our head around that and realize that we didn't get good because we did more,

we would get better at it and maybe more skilled at it, but we're good at it, we were good at it right from the get-go. But we should all have the fundamental movement patterns. And this is what pains me with children at school. Oh, you're no good at sports. So you're just left in the library instead of, oh, you don't want to move much. Well, I wonder why that's a bit odd because we're movement animals. Let's just, let's go and organize a few messy pieces.

I call them pieces of Lego. They're just fundamental movement patterns. Let's go and organize them so that you can enjoy movement. And, you know, in the future, save the NHS may be a fortune because you discovered movement. It's do you have what you need in you to move well? Because you can't cognitively think good movement every single moment of the day. You can't, it's not possible. Helen, one of the themes of today, one of the things we've covered is that you can give your body and your brain input through the skin.

Mm hmm. Okay. And you've explained that one way to do that is lying on the floor and, you know, allowing the skull to touch the floor, that's giving input to your, the skin on your, the back of your skull, touching the crown of your head and massaging it around, that's giving input, okay? So that's one way. I want to talk about feet, okay? I mean, we could spend two hours just on feet.

So specifically, I want to talk about foot wiping and ticklish feet. Okay? And maybe we can just do a quick summary of that. We can go deeper next time you come back on the show. But what's interesting to me, and I've done this in your clinic, is, and I used to have very, very ticklish feet and they're less ticklish now through all this work, right? And in my kitchen, as you know, we have a doormat. So we're a bare-foot household, no one wears shoes in our house. But there is a doormat in our kitchen and the doormat is not there for people to wipe their feet on. It's there for me and hopefully the kids, if I can keep gently reminding them each morning, is to do foot wiping for about a minute. Explain if you can, why is

foot wiping important and what have you seen? Because I think you have measured this and you've seen it pretty much on every occasion. what happens when you put people back on Doris after they've wiped their feet for one or two minutes? Okay, it's so big. The skin is full of skin receptor cells that give the brain information and we feed it in from the extremities and the most sensory input is found in palms of hands, soles of feet and tongue. And these form the extremities, of course, feeding into the system. The tongue is an extremity because it's the only part of the human body that can be outside the human body and not be called a prolapse. So, and it's a very cool muscle

because it never gets tired, ergo me talking all day and getting sidetracked. And it's attached to the hyoid bone, which is a very cool bone because it's the only bone in the human body not attached to another bone. And the tongue is cool because it's only attached at one end, it's the only muscle attached

only at one end to a bone. So we have all this sensory input coming in to our system to feed information to the brain about what is going on as you move around in through space. And initially we are, we have receptive fields which are hypersensitive. So you can replace ticklish feet, which is just, I like easy terms. They're hypersensitive. These people struggle to walk on a pebbly beach would be horrific for them. They would need to put shoes on. They don't, even the slightest bit of gravel, it's like Princess and and the pea. Their feet don't like being in contact with the ground. I call them squeamish souls.

It's not normal or should I say is that optimal? It's not. It's suboptimal. It's common, but it doesn't mean it's right. So we have these sensitivities in our feet when we're born because nobody is born with any arches. Nobody's born with bunions. People have told me that they were born with their bunions. Nobody's born with a bunion. The bunion is as a result of the movement patterns that you utilize and the foot trying

its best to help you out there. There are pathologists in feet, of course, but we're not talking about pathologists in feet. We're talking about human development and initially there are receptive fields in the soles of the feet which when triggered either through a stroke in a certain place and a certain direction and or traction so lengthening of tissue it fires off a reaction a a reflexive reaction.

Now, a reflex travels at 180 to 270 miles an hour. It's super fast. It's happened to you. You didn't choose it. It's already happened. It's a stereotypical response to a stimulus. And we need it because we're a blob at the beginning. So we need all these receptive fields and sensory input to create the response of movement for our body to start to move,

to get us repetitively muscle strengthening, it's like strength and conditioning for babies, to get us upright in the field of gravity. I am simplifying this hugely. It's a huge chunk of brain science. I made a little animated video, 17 minutes long, in my attempt to try and excite people about the subject because so often the answer is here. Where is that video?

YouTube. It's on YouTube, on your YouTube channel. We'll put a link to it. Free and because if nothing else has worked, check in. Just if you watch the video, people tell me that they suddenly thought, oh my goodness. So maybe when I couldn't do, I went to ballet class and I was great on everything except plie and I couldn't find my heels. So they were a toe walker, couldn't find their heels. This is to say as a grownup human, I can't find my heels. This is nonsensical, isn't it? Of course you can find your heels.

But at a fundamental root level within your DNA, the heel thing isn't going on. So they walk on their toes, brilliant at sprinting, really good equestrians, because all the inflammation is coming through the forefoot. And yes, they're pushing the heel down, but it's touching nothing. So there's all this anyway. So watch the video because it may just pennies dropping from heaven happen in my experience. So the receptive fields create this reaction, toes pinging up all over the place, movement of the foot bones to create the arches on which we need to walk to create the strength in the four layers of muscle underneath the bones of the feet.

People think we need cushioning. We've got four layers of muscle. They should be busy cushioning us. We shouldn't need to have shoes. We enjoy shoes where we're bright, humans are developed, our feet get cold, so we'll protect our feet. Our feet get too hot from the burning sun, so we might have a layer of material to protect us from the hot ground. But we don't need cushioning because we have it and we have give in our feet from the development of the arches.

This all starts before we've even got onto our feet. And the problem is, and this is an opinion, dare I say it, baby grows should be banned because the foot, can you imagine if the baby's foot is wafting in the sky and the baby sees it, doesn't realize it belongs to them, grabs it, sticks it in his mouth because everything is explored through mouths. I've got a puppy, everything goes in his mouth. So it's explored in the mouth and the tongue on the foot triggers all this movement, which gives the baby great joy. So they keep doing it. So we have all this movement, which gives the baby great joy. So they keep doing it. So we have all this movement. Can you imagine putting a cloth, a dry cloth in your mouth? Do you think it's going to stay there very long?

It's not fruitful. It doesn't give any kind of reward. So that's not going to happen again. So it is only an opinion, but we are finding instead of injury rates going down, they're going up. They're going up and up and up and up. And I am seeing people do lots of footwork, lots and lots and lots and lots of footwork and still the problem remains. And when I test the soles of the feet, they are hypersensitive. Hypersensitive.

These feet don't want to be in contact with the ground. These feet don't want to be in contact with the ground. It's mad, isn't it? If we just zoom out and go, well, hold on, to get around in life, to walk around our house or our flats, to go to the shops, to walk, your feet needs to be in contact with the ground. And you're saying for some people, their feet at a core level don't actually want to be in contact with the ground. That is pretty crazy.

Their feet find every way to avoid those still active receptive fields, those hypersensitivities. still active receptive fields, those hypersensitivities. And they will, when I check them, I'll do the stroke, traction is your body weight rolling through them. So when you're on them, you are triggering that response because it didn't ever get organized. Or it got organized and you had a concussion and then it wasn't organized again.

But this is fundamental feet freedom. We've got 33 joints down there to do exciting things. If your feet are squeamish, if they're hypersensitive, if they don't like being touched, if you thought of a pedicure fills you with horror, if you have to put socks on all the time, if you have to have something protecting them all the time. If you have pain in your body, my go-to, so it's almost like topping and tailing. Okay, check your head. Yes, for sure. And go down to your feet. See, are they ticklish? And I'm using for the people listening, I'm doing the old rabbit seers apostrophes. So the ticklish just people think, oh, well, everybody's ticklish. Well,

no, actually, they're not. And it is simply a simple term to describe hypersensitivity. And we can't have it that the soles of our feet which are there to give us all that sensory information, pressure, temperature, vibration, danger, all of that proprioces, all that sensory input needs to be coming through to the brain, not you trying to hide your foot from the ground or stamping hard on a tickle which makes the foot rigid. The only people who actually have a little bit of freedom are those whose central nervous system has organized themselves around these tickles and they just allow the toes to ping up all over the place.

And these people will hold their socks so the big toe will go through their socks within no time at all. And I've even seen it that they've gone through leather uppers. So they hold their leather uppers. The strength of the reflexive, messy, still there, receptive field action is creating such strength in that big toe that it holds their leather shoes. So, if you have ticklish feet and this is just how low tech the solution can be for you, right?

Yes. You just rub your feet. I think it's almost as if you're putting out a cigarette stub. Yeah, so there's a receptive field where the toes meet the foot. So to access that area, it's as if you're stubbing out a cigarette. Right, so you're doing that for let's say a minute or two. What have you seen on Doris when people with a variety of different symptoms, you found that their feet are hypersensitive, they rub their feet, you

get them back on Doris. I think last time we exchanged messages about this, you said you've never not seen a difference. Yes. So on this subject, actually this and tongues, if I didn't have Doris, nobody would believe me. They would think I was some quirky something. So, but because I have the data, I have so, I have eight terabytes of data to support everything I do because I'm curious. I'm thinking, well, what does it do? What does it do? Oh my goodness.

And I have, I had a group of guinea pigs who did a little, I did a little pocket research and the common themes are, so what you're doing is it's almost like the receptive field didn't get used up. I don't know if that's brain science, exact, but it's a sense within me, or maybe it just didn't get used up. You know? And we need to use it up, because what we're doing is using it up. We're not desensitizing, because we don't want unsensitive feet. We just don't want hypersensitive feet. We want all that information coming through with clarity without any noise. So we are vigorously scrubbing every single millimeter. Imagine you have got treacle or something sticky on every single millimeter of your soul and you're trying

to get it off. So you need to go into the inside arch and I've had people pulling faces, oh, I don't like it, I don't like it. And if they just stick with it, I always say, like you say, attach a habit to another habit. So if you've got an electric toothbrush, you can let the toothbrush do the brushing up here whilst you wipe your feet for the two minutes it takes to do your teeth cleaning. And if you do that twice a day, great things happen. I'll tell you a story in a moment. And what I measure is consistently.

So the person reports, well, I think I'm probably making it up, but I do feel a bit better balanced. And everybody second guesses themselves. Or I feel, oh, I feel more ground. I can feel more ground. I feel better, I feel more ground. I can feel more ground. I feel better. I feel more stable. Somehow I feel more grounded.

Oh my goodness, I can feel my toes because their toes were pinging up out. They didn't want to know. And you can see it when you, when you step out the cigarette, they're doing it and I have to make videos for them. Nobody should need a video for foot wiping, right? You're just wiping your feet, but you do because people will start to pad their feet. Not scrub them. Not wipe it, they'll avoid it.

The body's very clever, right? Yeah, oh my goodness, the body is so clever. Or they'll lift their toes, the tip of their toes up out of the way so that that skin underneath the toes and where the toes meet the foot don't make contact with that prickly doormat at all. They'll find a way.

And so they're expressing what they're feeling as they're walking. And I'm seeing in real time, the foot pressures change on Doris. So where there was excess pressure, there is less. So where all the strategies were being put in place to avoid or pin down, or just not roll, not stretch the foot. So they'll just walk hard and flat footed, but just land because then there's no stretch and they're kind of pinning down the reaction. So what I measure is more balanced pressures.

It tracks all the way up. I measure it tracking all the way up to the shoulder girdle. It changes the movement, not just to the pelvic girdle, but that changes the shoulder girdle. So if I've changed in feet, then I should be able to measure all the way up to the shoulder girdle unless there's something in the way to stop it getting there. Because the whole body's connected. Yes, and that's the clue. That's the goal. It's like, okay, oh, it's reached the shoulder girdle. Great. Oh, it didn't. Okay, what's in the way? So then that's my next train of thought. But I will, I will measure weight shift become more effective. So the ability to get the weight from one

leg to the other, taking your mass above it in an organized fashion with it, I will see better timing through the feet, adjust better use of feet, and they almost certainly will have a longer stride. So for the same speed, they are traveling further. They're becoming effortlessly faster. They're becoming more efficient. They're not thinking about it. All you've done, for want of a better term, is wake up a certain part of the body or a certain connection in the body and naturally the body's starting to move better. Yes. I had a lady who loved her marathons. She loved them. Five and a half hour marathon,

loved them, just trotted along, but she just couldn't understand after eight years, why wasn't she getting any faster? Why? Because, you know, surely she should be faster. She wasn't bothered about time. She loved her marathons. Five and a half hours. So she had insanely ticklish feet. So eight years of five and a half hour marathons, loving them. Wiping her feet for three months, five hours. Matthew Aspire Hold on. Okay, okay. Okay. Okay. The amount of competitive athletes who listen to this podcast, there's a whole variety, but there's definitely competitive runners out there who listen. You have just said that someone who can constantly do a five and a half hour marathon,

so for them that's their limit, that's what they can do without changing anything, just foot wiping. Just foot wiping. What, a few minutes a day? Two minutes when cleaning teeth, she was good. What? A few minutes a day? Two minutes when cleaning teeth. She was good. Okay.

So four minutes a day she did. Yeah. And then she knocks off 30 minutes off a marathon time, which anyone who runs knows that that's a ridiculous level of improvement. Yes. Because. With no extra training. No, nothing.

Her life was too busy. Yeah, because you're changing the innateness, you're changing it at a core level, so you're naturally starting to move more efficiently. Her feet worked better. This is real root cause stuff, which is what I love about it, Helen. Look, we had planned to talk about all kinds of important things like stressing continence in women and how quickly sometimes you can help them fix it. Asymmetries, plantar fasciitis, how the brain dictates your movement, jaws.

I don't think we're going to get to it in this conversation, but if you're up for it, Helen, let's get you back on soon because those are important topics that are affecting a lot of people. So first of all, are you up for that? Oh, it's my favourite subject to talk about all things body and movement. So we'll do that. To wrap this one up, one topic we haven't spoken about yet, and we just need to briefly cover this at the end, I think, is it's minimalist shoes or barefoot shoes. And the reason I think it's worth bringing that up here, you mentioned that you're not a big fan of baby grows. Yes. So when the baby has, it's not easy to whip her. For the good reason, you could, if it's warm enough, you

can just whip their socks off and give their feet freedom for feet to go in mouths. It's not easy to whip a baby grow off. Yeah. So just to make sure we're being really clear here, I don't want any mother who currently has their child in a baby grow to be getting upset or to be thinking that they're doing something wrong. The context here is how much time is spent in a baby grow. Because if it's all the time, then the baby won't have the opportunity to explore the foot in mouse. It'll explore hand in mouse, but it won't have the opportunity to explore foot in mouth. And so the baby won't be getting as much input.

It'll have whatever input it is able to access through on tummy, when on the tummy with pushing with the big toes. And that's another subject. So it's in the, to frame it to any young mum, it would be just notice, just notice how often you put the baby grow on and can you perhaps just chop the feet off the baby grow and put socks on so that they can go on and off according to temperature. And that's it. Yeah, because we have to be able to have these conversations, Helen, because as you say, movement problems are getting worse. The amount of people in pain is going up. The amount

of people who aren't moving as much as they would like to, because they also see the science and the studies, they know they feel better when they move, but injury restriction, pain is often stopping them. And sometimes that is coming at a core level, where some of these innate movements that we would always have done in the past are not fully being explored because of how we often live these days. And life happens and stress gets in the way and that which was organised can become disorganised.

So, you know, if we keep checking in with our bodies and stress gets in the way and that which was organized can become disorganized. So, you know, if we keep checking in with our bodies and noticing, oh, my feet seem more sensitive than they were. When this summer, last summer I was able to walk barefoot everywhere, this summer I can't. And so the answer is immediately just go and check, check, check. Yeah, did anything happen in the previous year? Was there some kind of either physical or emotional trauma, which would be enough to upset the system and then go back in again and just reorganize,

just give the brain the information it needs to reorganize. I have no idea what is happening in the brain when we are wiping feet, but we are just taking the foot away from being hypersensitive to being more functional. Yeah. Just finishing off there, maybe 10, 15 minutes ago, you mentioned that we've got these four layers of cushioning there in the feet. We shouldn't need cushions. My philosophy

is very much that, you know, people say make the case for minimalist shoes. I said, well, hold on, when did they make the case for cushion shoes? I was about to say the same thing. You know, for most of our revolution, we ain't been wearing them and we've been running pretty down well. We've been moving pretty well. Like who made the case for cushion shoes? That's the first thing. But the second thing is, I believe if we kept children barefoot for longer, I believe if we didn't put them into thick cushioned soles and we kept them, if you have to wear shoes for school or to protect your feet when you're

out, whatever it might be, if they were barefoot minimalist type shoes without soles, without a heel to toe drop, I believe that we would stop or reduce so many downstream problems later on in life. Back pain, hip pain, knee, whatever it might be. What's your perspective on everything I've just said? So the science is already there. We don't even have to hypothesize. A dear friend of mine was invited to present some of his work in India. And they said, oh, just let us know what you want to talk about and then we'll do all of the promo. And he was like, Oh, what should I talk about? And he was passionate

about feet. He is passionate about feet. And so he said, Oh, let's do plantar fasciitis. And then the email came back. Yeah, me. Well, we I think that's, that's your problem over there. We don't have this. It doesn't really exist here. Think of something else. So there are so many cultures around the world that don't have these problems and don't wear cushion shoes and some don't wear any shoes. And in some cultures, children don't wear shoes for sport until they're 14. So that certainly happened in South Africa and New Zealand. When I lived in Africa, that was the state. Now, you know, I've been back from Africa 30 odd years. So I don't know if it's changed since then.

But at that time, children did not wear shoes that they were not allowed to wear shoes for sport. So they needed to be moving on their little growing feet without any restriction. And it's not just the shoes, it's the socks. Socks are so tight and people don't even realize that the, you know that the elastic is people tend to wash a lot and one wear must go in the washing machine. But every time these fibers get washed, these elastic fibers get washed, they lose a little

bit of their elasticity until we all know that nice comfortable stretchy lovely sock that was lovely when you first put it on is now tight and not very comfortable but we're going to put it on anyway because it hasn't got any holes in it yet and so we'll just keep going with it so which is fair enough and yeah and it's not it's a bit mean on your feet because the feet bones need to move the joints need to move to activate the musculature of which there is plenty. So do you think, I think, you know, we're going to have to park certain parts of this discussion for next time Helen, but as a general rule, are you a fan of minimalist shoes? shoes? I don't personally like cushioned footwear. I can't feel the ground. It doesn't do it for me.

I want to be connected with the ground. Nothing pleases me more than as little as possible on my feet, but my feet get cold. So in winter, I don't like cold wet feet, so waterproof socks go on and minimalist footwear because I don't possess anything else. Yeah, well me too. So I'm also have experienced the benefits of minimalist shoes and like for some people minimalist shoes I think helps them feel the ground more, it helps them switch on all kinds of things. We know from certain research that their foot strength can improve massively within a few months of wearing them.

I'm not talking about running in them, just wearing them. Yeah. But sometimes you need more than that. You still need to wake up the feet with foot wiping, for example. Yeah. I think, although I don't know this, are you saying that in an ideal world, you mentioned the example in India where they wrote back to your friends and said, hey, look, we don't really have much plantar fasciaeitis here, talk about something else. And I know, and many people know that there's a lot more barefoot living.

Of course, things are changing. There's a huge growing middle class there who are buying cushion soles, et cetera, et cetera. But it's interesting that. So would you say across society, it's better for children to not put on cushion shoes in the first place, or things being equal? I would say, my children had, so one of my children, one of my sons was born in Africa and we were all barefoot pretty much all the time. their feet, both of their feet became less fabulous coming back to the UK and wearing

school shoes. And so people would say, well, you know, school shoes, they're well fitted and all of these things. It's a very sticky subject. But if you think about the human spine or the human body from top to toe as a pole, they know, and the science was done a very, very long time, if you, it's a long time ago, if you lift so the pole has got a foot and then the pole, if you lift the heel more than five millimeters above the foot end, at the toe end, then the pole will start to teeter forwards. So as a human, because we're dynamic, we can accommodate this, because we can accommodate all sorts of landing on uneven ground with the heel higher than the ball of the foot. We can accommodate heel lower than the ball of the foot.

So it's not that ground actually needs to be uneven, and maybe that's why our feet are so massively jointed so that we can accommodate all of this unevenness. Not for the softness of the ground. Most of the ground on this earth is baked hard. So it's nothing to do with cushioning against hard ground. It is the ball, the heel can be wherever it needs to be according to the ground relative to the forefoot. But if it's permanently X amount of millimetres above the ball of the foot, then the body has to do something to accommodate it. The foot has to do something and to stop you face planting, the rest of the body does. So the famous story with very high heels is all about the society we live in where if a heel, a woman's heel is lifted hugely,

it plumps up the rear of her body from the calf up to the glutes and tends to push up the front of her body to offer aesthetic pleasure to the people who are looking at her. So the origins of heels as fashion items, because we have adorned ourselves for to attract the opposite sex or attract the person that we want to be attracted to forever. Because that's how we are made. But there's a consequence. What's interesting to me, and this is a whole other rabbit hole that maybe we'll go down next time about where high heels came from and what is it about this culture and societal pressure for women of a certain class and whatever it might have been in the past to wear heels and you've explained some

of the rationale there. But essentially what fits the theme of this entire conversation, Helen, is that there's a consequence to everything. So your foot can adapt to going uphill, to going downhill. So heel lower than toe, toe lower than heel, uneven ground. Great. But when you permanently put your foot in a place, let's say with a heel shoe, not even just a high heel, where your heel is above your toe, and that's how you go about your life every single day, there's going to be a compensation in other parts of your body to adapt to that.

Yes, the body will strategize to maintain whatever it is that you are wanting to do. It will find a way and which is a double-edged sword. So I think in short, the question about children's shoes is fraught with because everybody, all parents are trying to do their best for their children. I get it, for sure. And there is a big factor, because I've seen it in many a comment, that it's all very well, but these are growing feet and minimalist shoes aren't cheap and we need to have growing room. And, you know, they're swimming around in these shoes that don't fit.

But somehow rather with normal shoes, normal school shoes, normal children's shoes, they can have growing room and somehow get the foot in and pin it in so that it doesn't flop out as with the growing room still there. So this is a fraught subject because of people's sensibilities, because they're trying to do the right thing with maybe limited resources. And children have this blooming habit of just keeping growing and costing more and more money. And wouldn't it be pure joy if we could just dispense with all of that and just have them just throw the shoes off and just be barefoot. So they can have some kind of something to get them to school, then they can all take

their shoes off because they're inside. They're inside all day. Why are they wearing shoes? Being inside all day has its own issues for sure. But just to finish off on that point, Helen, I think it's such an important one. And people often get unhappy at the minimalist shoe companies, but I think it's misplaced personally because there's lots of them now burgeoning everywhere across the world and there's all kinds of different price points. Yes, some of them are expensive.

And so I understand why parents go, I can't afford that. There's a cost of living crisis. People are struggling. But it's not the minimalist shoes. I would say are not the issue. The issue is, is that we've never made the case for cushion shoes. All the big shoe companies are now creating aed shoes at scale. So of course they're cheaper. It's a bit like, you know, big food, may I say it, you know, where the cheap, tasty, easy to afford food, generally speaking, not of course all the time, but a lot of the time is the ultra processed foods because it's made mass and at scale. Whereas companies who are trying to come on board and actually go,

actually, no, we think this is better for the health of our children. And if they're trying to do things the right way, sometimes they are more expensive. So I get that. But what's the take home? The take home is if you can't afford it. Well, there's plenty you can do. Like when your child's at home, be barefoot more, encourage the shoes off, do foot wiping

so that even when they're wearing cushioned shoes, even with their shoes on, as the name of your book, the feet are working better. You know, anything you'd add to that? Would you disagree with anything there? No, not at all. I agree with everything. And let's just, if you flip it like you did earlier, it's the minimalist movement is in the dock.

And as you say, nobody put a fashion footwear in the dock. It just happened. It just is because it's there and it's omnipresent, nobody questions it because it's always been there. It's always been like that. When I was teaching bike fitting, I would ask and people would come from all over Europe because we taught the Europe. We were the teachers for Europe for the bike fitting.

And I got the people who couldn't speak English to the people who speak English to translate to their partners if they couldn't speak English. Because there's this story that it's always been, the end result is it's always been like that. So nobody is questioning the norm because it's always been like that. So the norm, everybody has grown up with whatever they have grown up with in whatever country they're in. So the standard footwear. So we get normalized to what actually doesn't make any sense. So if you flip it, okay, does this norm make any sense? Because we are taking the foot away from the ground,

we're elevating the heel to varying degrees, we're filling it full of stuff to make it feel not like the ground, we're elevating the heel to varying degrees, we're filling it full of stuff to make it feel not like the ground and we're asking bodies to move upon this 33 jointed quarter of the bones in the body with all that sensory inflammation 200 000 nerve endings or something absolutely quite extraordinary. We're asking them to move well. Well, where is that? Where is the logic there? So then you just, well, can I have less or can I have less time in that? So can I have less shoe or less time? And let's pay attention to socks, please. Please pay attention to socks, everybody, because you can have the loosest shoe in the world, you know, the teenagers not doing their laces up. I applaud

you. I am a fan of loose laces. As anybody who knows my inside, I bang on about laces. And if you've got a tight sock on inside, even if it's a loose shoe, then still you're restricting. So if we just pay it back so that there is less restriction, give less restriction, give more freedom to our movement on as many levels as you can possibly think. What belief do you subscribe to that's keeping you trapped? Yes. Yeah. And it just might be just standardization.

Yeah. What's the belief? Where did you take on the belief that you had to wear cushioned shoes? What happens if you don't believe that? What happens if you just go, well, wait a minute, how might my life be if I didn't subscribe to that view? If I understood that for 99.9% of human evolution, we didn't have cushions on and we did pretty well with terms of our movements. It's remarkable to me that we need to make the case for it.

But Helen, we're going to park that there for another conversation. We've covered a lot. We've gone off topic, which is what I love doing. Who needs lists? Who needs lists? To finish off Helen, let's take this away from marathon runners or triathletes or Iron Men or half marathoners, right? Let's just talk to the person who's frustrated because they can't go around the block in the way that

they want to. They keep hearing me or anyone else or you talk about movements great, but they're like, hey, I get it. I hear what you're saying, but I can't move. Whenever I go for a walk, my knee hurts. My foot hurts. My shoulder hurts. Yes, of course, go and see your healthcare professionals. There may be something there that they can help you with. But with all your years of experience, I would love to know at the end of this conversation, Helen, what would you say to that individual? Helen Okay. So you want to go around the block and things hurt, somewhere hurts. And we can start, we can finish where we started with knees. So I worked with a footballer who'd had two surgeries on his knee and still there was

no solution. And nobody, because I said, okay, so, you know, everybody would have done everything that is the, they would have crossed the T's and dotted the I's within the remit of standard knee rehab, post-surgery. And I said, well, and I looked, he took his, everybody gets assessed with their socks off, standing still, walking, and then if they run with shoes on, obviously we measure with running with shoes on, whatever they want to run in. And he took his socks off and it was, I nearly fell over. He had the most rigid feet I think I'd probably ever seen, the highest arches.

Toe extensor tendons, so the little tendons that come on the top of your foot from your toe to your foot, which lift the toe up, they were like guitar strings. They were so taut. Everything was taut. And I said, well, has anybody looked at your feet? No. So we looked at his feet, they couldn't move because they were hypersensitive. And then we reduced the hypersensitivity through the very technical art of foot wiping. And his feet could then move and then we could make progress with the knee function which requires the shin bone to rotate. But if the feet are locked, the shin bone cannot rotate in either direction. It's just stuck. So then we were able to make ground. So you can keep it as simple as lying on the floor,

where's my head? Is it even comfortable to have my head aligned with the rest of my body? lying on the floor, where's my head? Is it even comfortable to have my head aligned with the rest of my body? So the progression is then to take it up against the wall. Is it comfortable for my head to be more or less above the rib cage, above the pelvis, against the wall? And then maybe rub the scalp a little bit to give the brain awareness. Maybe engage in your inner meerkat. I've actually got quite a few Insta posts on that one. And the other thing is, so you can physically check top to bottom and then you can help yourself with the superpower that's above your nose. Your eyes. So if that person can see, they can use their eyes to change just about, dare I say, everything. So

your visual field informs your spinal activity. Your spinal activity to a degree informs, to a degree the other way around, but it's much more the visual field which informs our spine. So we need peripheral vision when we're upright. Our central nervous system feels safety because we only have eyes in the front of our head unlike other animals that have eyes on the sides of their heads. So our sense of general alert is by having a field of view that goes to the left and the right as well as ahead. So when we access that peripheral field of view, we, and I measure this so consistently, it's ridiculous. It's such an easy way in. your spine extends. I had a guy, he didn't run because he couldn't run, but he wanted to.

And he showed me his walking and he was looking down. And he said, well, I wanna run, but I can't run. And I'm embarrassed to show you my running. And I said, please, please want to run, but you know, I can't run and I'm embarrassed to show you my running. And I said, please, please, please don't be embarrassed. It's just you and me. Just, just show me what you have been doing. And he ran looking down like a bull in a Chinese shop.

He was just so far forward leaning. It was like a bull in a Chinese shop. Three minutes later, he, I've got video of this, it's, I wish I should ask him if I could show people because it's, he went from somebody who could absolutely couldn't run, couldn't, he struggled to move. He changed his visual field. He came and looked at the screen. He went, oh, I look like a runner.

And I went, you, you totally look glorious. Just his visual field stood him up. You don't even need to try. We have, it can be, be careful. It's the same with the minimalist footwear. When you start to do, you know, when you start to pare down and maybe have less on your feet for longer,

just do it gradually because the muscles aren't used to it. Just a heads up. Don't just throw everything in the bin. Give your body a chance. So when you start to pay attention to your visual field, don't do too much in one go because eyes get tired. But they are moved by muscles just like everything else. So you can have this and the easiest thing you go around the block with having maybe

rubbed your feet a little bit and there is hypo as well. So there's hypersensitive soles of feet and hypo and these people can stomp around they can walk on anything. They go, you know, my feet aren't sensitive. But actually hypo is just the end, the other end of the same thing. It's the spectrum. So if you can, you know, stand on spiky stones and walk across glass and it doesn't affect you at all, maybe scrub your feet a little bit to make them a little bit more responsive

because these feet are hypo-sensitive, and they're still not feeding the information up through the system. So you maybe have woken the skin of the feet up a little bit, made some clarity to the brain, maybe you've found a better place for your head to be, and then you walk around the block and you see ahead of you, but you're not looking at anything. You're not trying to do anything, you're just seeing ahead and you're seeing the houses on either side of the street. So you have this field of view and see what happens in your system.

I measure it every time. I've never not measured improvement just by changing the visual field. And I get people, I say, please don't believe anything I say. Go and experiment. Take your visual field to where it was. How does that feel? Switch it back and of course, it's not just down. You can look, you can have your head forward

and looking down, but you're looking over there somewhere. It's nothing to do with anything apart from you're looking at something or you're seeing everything. When I say looking at something, I'm bringing my two fingers together because I've got laser vision focus. And when you're all seeing, you're not looking at anything. You're seeing everything. Nothing is in focus. But you can see where you're going. We don't need to look at the ground right in front of our feet. Our eyes have already seen that ten paces prior with our scanning ahead of where we're going to. We're scanning where we're going to. And with that, because it's peripheral vision,

our system relaxes. Our autonomic nervous system senses there's no danger. I can see everything. It relaxes. It relaxes to its innateness, which is upright. Not bolt upright posture, you know, deportment. Not that upright, functionally upright. And when you go to looking at something, you will feel yourself cave. You will feel, I call it the button, the base of the stern is like a little button there. It just kind of sinks and falls in and everything feels a bit harder. Don't believe me? Play. It's the contrast with this, with that, with this, with that.

Get your own empirical evidence. And if you engage with, and if you wear glasses, so if you wear glasses and you have contact lenses, please put your contact lenses on. If you don't have contact lenses, then have the least irritating frame so that you can allow the field of view, it won't be in focus because you're not looking at anything.

It doesn't need to be in focus. And just allow the visual field to spread as much as is comfortable is the key. You will find better with peripheral vision. The superpower is above your nose. I mean, I've experienced that myself, you know, since I've learned that, you know, when you have that soft gaze, that peripheral vision, I feel more rotation. It just feels more fluid. I mean, that really, Helen, I think it's a little teaser for our next conversation because we didn't really go into vision properly today as I was hoping to. I guess your message really is one of hope for people. It is don't assume that you can no longer move without pain. Start paying attention, think about your head, think about your feet and then see where you're

at. And if you can't find anything, lie on it. So you just give yourself the information. If you think, well, I don't know where anything is, lie on it. If you don't know where your left arm is, lie on it. If you don't know where your head is, lie on it. And give your brain that input. Give your brain the information.

Let your brain find it for you. Helen, honestly, I think you're just doing such incredible work. I know some of the incredible case studies of people who have tried everything, have gone to see you and suddenly they're moving well again, they're out of pain. It's truly remarkable. I think you've dropped loads of wisdom in this conversation, loads in the first conversation. If people want more, I guess they can go to your book, they can go to your website because you've got all these videos there that you've made for people. There's also the course, of course, for healthcare professionals and physios and running coaches

and people who want to learn more about the whole philosophy. What's the website? Helen-hall.co.uk. Thank you. Yeah. Anywhere else you'd point them to, apart from your Instagram, of course. I'm trying to do better on the Instagram. I've been lax just recently, but I'm going to get back on top of it.

I've moved house, so I will be back on it. So yes, I just want to help as many people as humanly possible. And so often when the complex hasn't worked, maybe the simple is being missed. Helen, I always simple is being missed. Helen, I always love chatting to you. Thanks for coming back on the show. Thank you for having me. Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life. And also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else. Remember when you teach someone it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the

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