Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - Why You Can’t Stop Eating Sugar And Ultra Processed Foods with Dr Jen Unwin #652

Episode Date: April 28, 2026

Ever wondered why you can’t stop at just one biscuit? Or why your efforts to eat better go so well for a few days, but you’re soon back where you started – frustrated, ashamed and wondering what’s wrong with you? This episode has the answers you need, along with a roadmap for regaining control. I’m speaking with Dr Jen Unwin, a clinical psychologist who has struggled with and overcome food addiction. And if you’re thinking ‘I didn’t think that was a thing’ then stay tuned for the facts that will convince you otherwise. Over decades trying to understand her own relationship with food, Jen discovered that for a significant number of people, a compulsive habit around sugar and ultra-processed foods is real and damaging. In this enlightening conversation, she explains how sugar lights up the same reward centres in the brain as nicotine and alcohol. And how our hunter-gatherer ancestors may not have needed an ‘off switch’ for eating, but our modern food industry makes it almost impossible for vulnerable people to say no. The research is strong – and Jen is part of a charity campaigning to have food addiction formally recognised by the World Health Organization. That way millions of people would be able to get help from their doctors, in the same way as people with drug and alcohol misuse disorders – instead of being dismissed for a lack of discipline or willpower. Many of us get cravings or have a fondness for sweet or ‘blissy’ foods. So when does that tip into addiction? Jen shares a clever, six-point, self-assessment tool called CRAVED, which you can use right now to understand whether your relationship with food might be problematic. And we get super practical, with advice on whether cutting down or going cold turkey is right for you, how to handle social situations when everyone around you is indulging, and how to set up your home environment for success. Whether you score one or six on the CRAVED scale, I’m certain there’s something in this conversation for everyone. And if you’re someone who has been battling this quietly, perhaps feeling ashamed or hopeless, I honestly believe Jen’s message might mark a turning point for you – one that helps you see a way forward. Fill out our audience survey via https://drchatterjee.com/survey Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/feelbetterlivemore. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com.   Thanks to our sponsors: https://dohealth.co/livemore https://thesleepreset.com/podcast https://boncharge.com/livemore Show notes https://drchatterjee.com/652   DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

We've got these massive epidemics of obesity, type 2 diabetes, metabolic unwellness. And part of that story for some people is to do with the fact that they've got an addiction to sugar and these ultra-processed foods. We need to get food addiction recognised as an official condition. I think it legitimises then the harms it can do. And until we label it as an addiction, I think people will be stuck in this addictive relationship. Hey guys, how you doing? I hope you having a good wheat so far. My name is Dr. Rongan Chatterjee,

and this is my podcast, Feel Better, Live More. Have you ever wondered why you can't stop at just one biscuit? Or why your efforts to eat better go well for a few days, but you're soon back to where you started. Well, my hope is that this week's episode

has the answers you need, along with a roadmap for regaining control. Dr Jen Unwin is a clinical psychologist who has struggled with food addiction for many years and if you're thinking, I didn't think that was a thing, then stay tuned for the facts that perhaps will convince you otherwise. Over decades, trying to understand her own relationship with foods, Jen discovered that for a significant number of people, a compulsive habit around sugar and ultra-processed foods is real and damaging. enlightening conversation, she explains how sugar lights up the same reward centers in the brain

as nicotine and alcohol, and how our hunter-gatherer ancestors may not have needed an off-switch for eating, but our modern food industry makes it almost impossible for vulnerable people to say no. The research is strong, and Jen is part of a charity campaigning to have food addiction formally recognized by the World Health Organization. That way, millions of people would be able to get help from their daughters in the same way as people would drug and alcohol misuse disorders instead of being dismissed for a lack of discipline or willpower. So when there's a craving turn into an addiction?

Well, that is exactly what you're about to find out in this week's episode. And you'll also get plenty of practical guidance, including how to handle social situations when everyone around you is in. indulging and how to set up your home environment for success. I really feel that the issue of why some people are unable to stop eating certain foods is something that has been ignored for far too long. And my hope is that this conversation provides some answers, guidance and reassurance. Many people blame themselves for lacking willpower around

sugar. Is this a willpower problem or is it an addiction one? It's so not a willpower problem. Just to say to people, because yes, people feel so self-blaming, don't they, and responsible for not being able to control what they eat? Yes, sugar has many effects in the brain, but one is to light up the reward centres like other drugs, where other drugs, like, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, they give us this sort of dopamine boost in the brain, which is the sort of reward, motivation, neurotransmitter, you're going to repeat the kind of things that give you that bit of a high, and sugar will do that. So some of us are more vulnerable than others, but because those are the primitive reward centres in the brain, it's not about logic, really.

it's about a kind of primitive drive. So, willpower, yes, maybe to some extent how you set up your environment and other things we can talk about in terms of how you can improve this problem. But once you've got into that addiction problem, you're never going to solve it with willpower. Now it is much more about the effects of sugar and refined carbohydrates, ultra-process foods on the brain itself, I would say. Yeah. It's kind of interesting, isn't it?

this idea that sugar can be addictive. I guess people would say, yes, there are addictive properties of sugary foods. But going that step further to say sugar addiction is a real problem, or ultra-process food addiction is a real problem, is something that is still pretty controversial. you have been a clinical psychologist for many, many years. I think you identify it as a food or sugar addict yourself. I do.

In your view, as someone who's at the cutting edge of this, Jen, why do you think this idea that food can be addictive for some people is so controversial? Yeah, you're completely right. It is still controversial and people do say, which kind of makes sense. how can food be addictive because we need to eat? So it makes no sense that something we have to have can be addictive.

So, for example, people will say, you know, we don't need alcohol to survive. And alcohol is that substance, which we know does have those effects in the brain. Whereas food we need to survive. My kind of response to that is, well, it's not all food. So we say food addiction, but we can perhaps go into the nuance of what we should call this disorder. Some people say sugar addiction because there is a lot of evidence now from brain studies that of those effects. I was saying about sugar sort of lighting up the reward centres. So sugar we know is a substance that kind of lights up the brain.

Refined carbohydrates because they very soon become sugar. You know, they can have the same effect. And we don't have to eat those foods. So obviously we have to eat to survive and we need nutrient-dense food to feed the body and brain. We don't have to eat sugar and we certainly don't have to eat ultra-processed foods that have been sort of manufactured in a factory and literally designed to hookers. The writing was on the wall for the cigarette companies. those companies bought a lot of the big food companies and brought their marketing and their sort of science

and to the formulation of those foods and literally sort of have people in brain scanners while they're testing out their formulations to see what lights up the brain more. So they're kind of literally designing these foods to get us hooked. There's that fantastic book by Michael Moss called Hooks which sort of exposes this whole kind of industry. So, you know, we probably shouldn't call some of those things.

food. So that would be my argument really is that certain food type substances have this same effects on the brain and can become addictive for some people. So we have to be, I think it really helps to think of the whole thing like alcohol. So we know that most of us as adults get exposed to alcohol. Some people really like it. They have. maybe too much, maybe harmful users, but then some people will develop a real problem with their relationship with alcohol, will become a substance use disorder. I see it is exactly the same with these kinds of foods

that some of us have this, for whatever reason, genetic trauma can be a factor, you know, just overexposure when we're very young. we developed that substance use disorder, which is very different from people saying sort of blithely, oh, I'm addicted to ice cream because they love it and they have it maybe a couple of times a week.

It's very different, a person with an actual food use disorder, the extent of the impact on their lives, for example. So although it's a continuum, you've got people who you wouldn't classify as having food addiction, as such and people that you really would and those are the sort of people that I identify with and I'm trying to look into the research and look into the sort of treatment programs that

can can help people but I think using that comparator is a really good because everybody understands all the public understand that don't they they understand that some people have lost control their relationship with alcohol and they need to abstain and so it's a very similar picture in my view. But it is still controversial. And obviously there are people who are very anti the idea, particularly the processed food industry. Yeah. Well, we'll talk later perhaps about the merits of getting this established formally as a diagnostic category, you know, food addiction or sugar addiction. Okay. My hope for this conversation is that it helps people understand if they may have a problem with food. They may already know.

that's anyway, but it may help them see in a different light. Yes. And then it's also really practical to help them actually start to do something about it. Because I think one thing that I think we both seen lots of is this idea that knowledge doesn't always convert to action. People can read books or listen to podcasts about the damages of excess sugar intake, right? They can see about its relationship with type to diabetes or obesity or your teeth or whatever it might be. And they can even go on these two, three week elimination

protocols or diets and go through the withdrawal and go, yeah, you know what, I've got so much energy, my skin's clearer. I can concentrate for longer, my sleep's better. Yet some people, that's not enough. They go back. And as you said, right, the start, I think one of the problems is that people then feel guilt and shame. Because Susan Downer, the road can have a sweet treat at Christmas once a year. And does it think about it for the rest of the year? Whereas other people, they just have it once. And I think you have a quote, one is too many, a thousand is never enough.

I love that quote because just anybody who's listening who has a food addiction problem will recognise that, that it's the first biscuit or the first spoon of ice cream that sets it, sets it off and then you can't stop and take it until you've had, you know, way too much. And even that doesn't feel like enough. Yeah. What was the Pringles marketing campaign a few years ago? You know, once you pop, you can't stop.

They literally use those, yeah, marketing terms. And what I think a lot of people don't understand is that it sounds like a catchy marketing slogan, you know, nothing wrong there. They're just trying to market their products. But underpinning that is something really quite dangerous. because a lot of people can't stop. They don't realize that that food has been engineered to hit the bliss point in your brain

so that if you are predisposed that way, you actually cannot start. Yeah. So let's just get some perspective here. Okay, we're obviously living in, you know, a very toxic food environment in the 21st century, depending on where you live in the world, but I think in most countries now,

most countries. It's become a very problematic food environment. Yes. If we go back to our hunter-gatherer ancestors, do you think that sugar addiction existed back then? That's such a great question. And I love the evolutionary lens. And I think it really helps us to sort of understand. So I think the reward centre evolved in the very two keepers alive, essentially, didn't it?

And one of the things that we needed to do to stay alive was to eat as much as we could when it was available because there would be times when it wasn't available and particularly in the winter. So this is, I think it's kind of, you know, widely talked about now, isn't it, that, you know, in the autumn we needed to really eat all the fruit that we could find. And it wouldn't be like, certainly in this country, it wasn't like we have now.

There weren't banana trees and sugary mango trees and things. like things we can get now, there would be little sour berries. But, you know, as many as we could eat would help us to put on white. And the same with nuts. You know, they were there in the autumn. So we would get those. If we were really driven, and I probably would have been one of these people, we might shimmy up a tree and get some honey out of a tree from the bees. But we'd have to be really driven to do that because we're going to get stung probably and, you know, maybe fall out of the tree, so we had to be really motivated to go and get that food. And that was how we survived. It wasn't available all year round, so we didn't even have eggs all year round. We would have

had those, everything was seasonal. And there's lots of evidence, isn't there, that wherever humans went, they basically led to the extinction of all the sort of fatty herbivores, because that was what we like to eat, meat and food. fat. So I think there wasn't, there wouldn't have been people who had a food addiction because the food wasn't, the environment didn't support that behaviour. You couldn't just go and get stuff. Whereas now it's all year round, it's everywhere. You don't even have to leave the sofa. That's the key problem, isn't it? Yeah. I think because on several occasions I've spoken to people who have spent time and lived with hunter-gatherers. Yeah.

In fact, I think last time I spoke to Daniel Lieberman, Professor Daniel Lieberman from Harvard, I think he told me that he has been out on a hunt with the Hudson tribe, who are hunt together a tribe, you know, still living, I think, in Tanzania, in the way that they've always lived, too, you know, mostly. And I think he's been out with tribesmen when they find honey, or they've had a long day out, they didn't manage to capture the whatever animal they were hunting. that they would literally gorge on honey. But they found the honey, they got it,

and they would literally almost like drink it. And so there's a couple of things to me that come up there, which is people say, oh, I've got a sweet tooth. You know, I kind of think we've all got a sweet tooth. You know, we evolved to have it. Exactly. It served us very, very well in a different food environment. In this food environment.

And our brains haven't, you know, that's such a small space of people. time from that food environment to this in terms of evolution. Our brains are just the same essentially. But going back to guilt, shame, lack of willpower, I think it's pretty clear that if you took those tribesmen and women and put them in a modern Western city, in six months you'd probably see the same patterns, right? I don't think they have any better ability to not take the sugar when it's And the reason I share that is because I know from chat to patients over the years, I know how many people beat themselves up on this.

They think that they're the failure. There's something wrong with them. It's actually, no, it's this food environment that's proving really problematic for you. We never needed an off switch for food. We always just needed an on switch motivated to go get. And I would have been one of those that was a go-getter for food. That's why I'm here because my ancestors were good. were good at that. They were driven to survive and so that's how I'm here today. So we never

needed an off switch and now we haven't got an off switch and food is everywhere. I mean, I'm amazed that anybody's a normal weight, to be honest, or anybody isn't, everybody isn't type too diabetic because, yeah, because of the environment that we live in and also the just the culture around food, you know, now today. Yeah. It's kind of interesting that. You're surprise that anyone is of a normal weight these days or what is considered in averse comes a normal weight. I think you have to try quite hard to be healthy. Yeah. And if we look at the stats, it's unusual to be for normal weight in many countries now, certainly in America and here in the UK, right? So the norm is to be overweight or obese. And metabolically not so good.

when your husband, David came on a few months ago, we were chatting in detail about this. But I think you guys are the first husband and wife couple to have appeared on the show in different conversations, not together, about relationship advice, or the way we could do that in some point in the future. But this idea that it's not normal anymore, I think is something that we can all reflect on

and what does that say. Is there a risk, though, that this kind of message is disempowering. And what I mean by that is, if we're just victims to the food environment, I guess some people might make the case, Jen, that, well, there's nothing we can do until the food environment changes.

I'm just playing devil's advocate there. Yeah, no, I understand. Or people can feel so hopeless because that's the environment we live in. So give us some hope. It's difficult. Yeah, it's difficult. So the hope, of course, isn't it?

It's exactly your message of this podcast is that we can make small changes to our own environments. We can have control over the things that we do on a daily basis that will really impact our metabolic health, but also cravings and the way that we respond to food. So it is supremely possible to become a food addict in recovery. it just takes some effort. So I think another thing that I like to say is it's not your fault that you have these struggles. But once you know the information that we're talking about today,

then it can become your responsibility to do something different. Well, it almost has to become your responsibility because there's no other option. Yeah, that's why I call the book Fork in the Road, because there are choices. We all have choices every day, you know, multiple times a day about which path we're choosing, whether we're choosing health and well-being or whether we're choosing a path which is going to lead us into

worse mental well-being, worse, worse physical health. And, you know, it can be difficult to always make the right choice. And I'm not saying, you know, any of us are perfect at that. You know, we all maybe take the wrong step from time to time. But I think if we've got that, it's always like having a lighthouse that you're aiming for that even if you're you're, even if you're you take a wrong step, you can still sort of reroute and be following, you know, it's important that people are thinking about, well, when do they feel at their best? What's really important to this? So we were talking before we came on about family and that that's so important. And I think if you can attach to those sorts of aims and goals, in the moment it can help you to make perhaps what

seems the more difficult choice, but actually is the choice that's going to lead you, keep you well, lead you towards being able to live the life that you, you know, you were kind of born to live and not be living. I've got a lovely clip which I often use in my lectures of one of the people that took part in our treatment study. And we asked him, what's it like to have food addiction? He just said it's hell. You have no hope. You're on a roller coaster that you feel you just don't see any way off. You know, you feel you can't control your own behaviour. You feel totally hopeless about that. That's no way to live. And I know, because I've been there myself as well, that that's, that's a place where you're not connecting with family. You're not doing your

best at work. You're not looking after yourself. Yeah. As part of my research for this conversation, I watched your conversation with Ken Berry on his YouTube channel. And it's a fascinating conversation. was even more fascinating was reading the comments under that interview. And I wrote a few down because when people challenge this idea that it's an addiction, and I understand, and sometimes I think these are academic things, because ultimately, what is an individual one, if an individual is consuming too much food, whether that be sugar, ultra-process foods or whatever else, in a way that's harming their physical health and mental well, being, they want help to reduce stroke, stop that. Whether we as professionals call it an addiction

or not, ultimately for that individual, they just want help, right? Yes. And some of the comments underneath that video were these, right? One person said, I'm addicted to sugar. I gave up cigarettes so easy, never got back to it, but man, that sugar is really my drug. I can't stop it. Someone else, Jen said, I used to lie to my wife, go out and secretly buy ice cream with cash so she couldn't track it. Someone else said, sugar is harder for me to quit than crack or meth was. I was a user of them for 11 years. If you heard those three comments about some other drug, you would probably go, they've got an addiction problem, wouldn't you?

Mm-hmm, yeah. But we don't go to that. So I guess, first of all, why do you think it's important to have this recognised as a formal addiction? Or do you think it's important? Yes, I do think it's important. And the charity that I work with, that's one of our key aims,

is to get the World Health Organisations, recognize this condition. So there's quite a lot of evidence. There's been a few research papers where if you label this kind of behavior as addictive, you know, people might say, oh, that's stigmatizing or people don't want to be labeled as addicts. But actually, the research shows that that label makes people more sympathetic to themselves.

And it also makes us more sympathetic to others, because then we can understand a behavior that on the face of it looks illogical. You know, why you've got type 2 diabetes? Why are you still having ice cream every day? all these biscuits. You know, it seems like a crazy thing to do. But if we label it as an addiction, I think people these days do understand, for example,

you know, most of us know someone who's had an alcohol problem. Well, we've seen it in the media where people have done that and then they threw abstinence and other practices, they, you know, they're in recovery from that. So I think we can feel more sympathetic. Number one. Number two, I think we've got these massive epidemic. that we've sort of touched on of obesity, type two diabetes, metabolic unwellness, mental health

problems. And could it be that part of that story is to do for some people and why, you know, they continue to suffer is to do with the fact that they've got an addiction to sugar and these ultra-processed foods? And until we incorporate that in our treatment as healthcare professionals, they're never going to to be successful. And also, you know, same with that we're not really touched on eating disorders, which sort of overlap with food addiction. But many people with an eating disorder actually have a food addiction. And at the moment, you can't get treatment for that in the UK.

You can't get treatment for what? For food addiction. But you can, of course, for eating disorders. You can, of course, for eating disorders. But if someone was misdiagnosed and they actually had an eating disorder, a food addiction, beg your pardon, and they're in an eating disorder service, they're going to get the wrong approach of treatment. So are they quite markedly different, the approaches you would take? So generally, although obviously that's not my field of expertise, eating disorders, but generally the idea of an eating disorder treatment program is a sort of all foods fit, you know, it's good, you shouldn't restrict certain food categories and you should be able to sort of eat all foods. Now, when I was really in the midst of my food, if I'd gone

into a programme like that, I never would have succeeded because I could never could eat all foods and be all right. So I couldn't have had biscuits and been all right by definition because I'd lost my control of that relationship with them. Because as you say, one is too many, a thousand is never enough. So I'd never have been in recovery there. Yeah, and we will get to your personal story jump, but my understanding is that there are certain foods now that you simply cannot have, not even one, and you've learned over the years to go, no, no.

I just abstain. That's almost like a gateway food. If I start, I won't stop. And as you say, that might be different advice from what you're getting in an eating disorder clinic. So going back to that earlier question, I guess one of the reasons why it might be so used, useful to get this recognized is so there's a different treatment. The right people get the right

treatment and treatment is available. So at the moment, because it's not a recognized condition, of course, research isn't funded or treatment clinics aren't funded. So, you know, if you go to your GP and you say, I can't give up cigarettes, they can send you to the quit smoking service. If you have lost control of your ratio with alcohol, they can send you to the alcohol team or the drug team, if you go to your GP and say, I'm addicted to sugar, I don't know what they would do unless they've gone to see David, obviously, and then he's got a very good idea of what to do. But I think generally if people went to their doctors and said that, they wouldn't know where to refer them.

And if they referred them to eating disorder service, that may or may not be right for them. So we've made us now a second application to the WHO to get food addiction. as a recognised disorder. So we've actually applied for it to be called ultra-processed food use disorder. That's where the most research exists. This use disorder term is the term that is used in the international classification of diseases.

So you get alcohol use disorder, for example. The formal term. This is a formal term, so we've called it ultra-processed food use disorder. And I think that nicely points the finger where the finger needs pointing about where the problem is. that links back to this issue about the food supply. You know, I think in the last few years, there's been really this growing recognition

of the dangers of ultra-processed food. You talk about it on the podcast. We've got the wonderful Chris Van Tollochan's book. You know, lots of stuff you've spoke to Rob Lustig. So I think we're starting to recognise the harms that those foods have on us physically. and mentally, and for this proportion of vulnerable people, you know that they can get stuck in this addictive relationship.

Yeah. And I think there's a wider point here for us to really unpack, which is that actually we should recognise that there are certain foods, which I guess Michael Pollan would call food-like substances as opposed to foods, right, that can be addictive. So in your experience, And from your research, what are the common foods that people have a problematic relationship with? Hey guys, just taking a quick break from this week's episode to ask you a small favor.

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For listeners of my show, Do Health, are offering you fixed early access pricing, less than £21 per month to all those that sign up to the wait list today. This is incredible value. Don't forget that this price includes three yearly blood tests, as well as 52 custom weekly plans and unlimited daily interactions with Coach Joy. All you have to do is go to dohealth.c.O. forward slash live more and use the code live more to gain access to the waitlist right now. So in your experience and from your research, what are the common foods that people have a problematic relationship with? Yeah. So things that have that combination of sugar, fat,

refined grains. And salt. Often. Yeah. Although salt on its own probably isn't the problem but when it's combined with these other things.

So that's so many of the modern foods that we eat. I mean, bread has got most of those things now, hasn't it? Sort of the industrially made bread. Pizzas, donuts. You've got ice cream, cakes, biscuits, all of these sort of...

Tortoise chips. To some people I know. Derrita type things. Yeah, crunchy. As you said. so many ingredients and kind of formulated to hit that, that sweet, sour, salty, crunchy. Yeah, what I've noticed, Jen, is,

and this is, obviously, you have to make progress somewhere. Like, if you can get the WHO, the World Health Organization, to recognize it, you know, around ultra-processed foods, it opens the door to progressing that over the years, right? Because one thing, I think, look, if we deal with ultra-process foods first, you know, you can get perhaps an inverter commas clean tortilla chip packet, right? Which only has three or four ingredients, but it's not only the ingredients, it's the combination of them together and it becomes problematic. Yeah, our hunter-gatherer

ancestors didn't have crunchy salt, sweet. Together. Together. Which is a delight for the taste buds. Yeah, exactly. It really is. And that's what, Yeah, that's your brain lighting up, isn't it? You can almost feel it kind of, ping, ping, b, you know, when you eat these things. That's the pleasure, the reward, that's the brain kind of very quickly. Because they enter the bloodstream very quickly. That's another thing about drugs, isn't it? The faster they enter the bloodstream and hit the brain, the more addictive they are.

So, we all know that foods that are whole foods that are full of fiber and sort of natural, they get digested slowly. So the sugar and it's not, it doesn't hit the brain in the same way as these processed foods with processed grains, sugar, salt, fat, all, you know, quickly, quickly available. People can also overeat whole foods, can't they? For sure. Which I guess takes it beyond UPS, ultra-processed foods. Yeah.

Which, of course, I think is the main problem. Yeah. But dairy, nuts. I actually heard when you spoke to Ken Berry on that conversation, he was talking about a patient who was addicted to steak. I think if you remember that. Ken was saying to you that they cut bits of steak, put them in a Ziplot bag, and put them in their bathroom.

And they'll sometimes sneak off to the bathroom, lock the door, and eat what must be cold or room temperature steak. So this whole idea of addiction, stroke problematic relationships with food, it's massive, isn't it? And there's certainly a proportion of people who are really struggling with that, which is why the conventional advice is often not working for them. They'll overeat anything in a way. There's a thing called volume addiction where people kind of get addicted

just to having large amounts of food. And there's many explanations being put forward. One is, you know, when you stretch the stomach, you actually get oxytocin, serotonin kind of release. So you do get, you know, in some ways these sort of neurotransmitter highs. I think the other thing to remember is that with any addiction, it's not just about the substance. Exactly. It's about the behavior.

So it's about the cues. It's about who you're with, you know, the sort of social side of it. There's also the sort of comfort side of a certain behavior. So that's where you can get this overlap with binge eating. eating behaviours that are sort of triggered by emotional states because we, for comfort, you know, or if there's a trauma history, we're maybe eating to, you know, to feel, Gabor Matte, talks about this a lot, doesn't he? He's really the king of that topic, you know, that we're eating to sort of fill a void in a sense. So obviously, just like any addiction treatment, where people are coming

into treatment, you have to take all of that into account. The other thing is that say, so we were talking about nut butters before, weren't we as well? And how that is a combination of, you know, carbohydrate, fat, salt, again, which you wouldn't really have had so much in nature. So things like nuts and dairy do have that rare combination of fat, carbohydrate protein. They're the only sort of whole foods that have that. And they can be problematic, well, for any of us, but Certainly those of those that have, you know, develops a food addiction problem can very easily overeat those things. And the other thing about addiction that we kind of touched on, we didn't really go into is that once you've wired the brain for addiction, however that started, all addictions look the same in the brain. And so there was that, the lovely quotes you were giving from the people who'd listened to Ken's podcast about, you know, well, I gave up this, but they're.

then sugar was my problem. It is sort of one problem with many outlets. And if you treat somebody's main addiction problem, it's a very common thing that other things will try and take its place because you're still looking for that dopamine hit. So, for example, if you go to an alcoholic's anonymous meeting, you see a lot of strong cups of coffee. You often see people smoking.

You know, there's a lot of cake and biscuits. because people are trying to sort of get that hit. Or we all know if you give up smoking, people put on weight because they start eating polar mints. Or another really stark example is when people have bariatric surgery because a lot of those people will be food addicts and then they can't, you know, they can't get that comfort from food. And a known side effect of bariatric surgery is the development of a new alcohol use

problem. Because people can still get the alcohol. So you cut off one pipeline to that dopamine, but the brain has been widened that individual to still want that. So they can't get it from food because they feel full,

they've had bariatric surgery, they're going to seek it out. They look for other sources of dopamine. To get the same feeling, right? Because even going back to what you're saying before about emotions, of course, one of the biggest reasons that we overreacted, eat, I think whether you're a food addict or not,

yes, certainly from my clinical experience, comfort eating. We eat our emotions. Yeah. You know, stress. We don't need a hole in our stomach, it's often the hole in our hearts, right? Loneliness, stress, a day on zooms, when no natural light, we haven't been out, whatever it might be, sugar gives you that, that quick hit. That quick hit or, you know, that sort of feeling to some extent of calm. Yeah. One of the things I'm passionate about, and with every passing gear, I become more and more passionate about this idea, is that it's very rare that there's one piece of advice that works

for everyone. Okay? So, for example, in the context of what we're talking about, Jen, it is common now with many nutrition professionals, not everyone, to be clear, but many people will say you shouldn't restrict anything. And I understand the rationale behind that, right? I totally understand the rationale behind that. And those professionals will probably share case studies say, well, listen, I had a patient like this. And when I help them not restrict and say it's okay to have a little bit of everything, it works for them. Yeah. Agreed.

But then they make the next step, which is, that's the advice for everyone, and it ain't. It's not. No. What you're saying is, you know that that approach worked for one of your clients or your patients, and maybe it worked for 100 of them. It doesn't mean it works for everyone, as you say, and we'll get into your story. That approach probably wouldn't have worked for you. And, you know, that general advice that restriction means that you've got a

problematic relationship with food, which is what many people say, I just think is nonsense, right? In this modern food environment, in my view, if you're not restricting something to a degree, you're probably going to be struggling with many aspects of your health. That's not the norm. That's what people expect people to say. That's just what I've experienced myself, and that's what I've experienced with my patients over the years. You know, in fact, I would say from what I've seen, gen, there's also this idea that, you know, health is about adding in stuff to your diet. You know, blueberries do this, so you want to add in blueberries. This food does that, you want to add that in. Great. I'm not against that. And I would say in my clinical career, most of my benefit with

patients has come from when they cut out stuff. So rather than adding in healthy things, they cut out things that were problematic. But that's not the conventional view. Yeah. I think the word restriction is such a kind of... It's a triggering word. It's a triggering way and we're going back to the eating disorder side and I can see why, you know, for some people they've over-restricted, they've dieted all their lives. I think if you restrict, so there's restricting calories and nutrition, which is a very bad idea. And then there's restricting, certain things which are harming you or which you can't control,

but overall you're really focusing on getting nutrient-dense foods in the right amounts that the body needs. You're not restricting calories and you're not restricting proteins and fats, essentially, the essential ones that you need. I think those are two completely different things. And I think women particularly have over-restricted calories, fat and protein. And in my view, this is why we see a lot more women come forward with sort of food addiction problems

because they're essentially malnourished and their bodies are sort of saying, you know, keep eating, keep eating because we need more nourishment. It's not, what they're eating isn't nutrient denser. So we, as you've said that we, you know, we've done treatment. programs and we've even done some residentials where we've sort of had people around for the weekends and they're always amazed. So I work with Heidi, who's a nutritionist, Heidi Yeva.

I was amazed at the amount of protein that we both put on our plates and they're like, wow, you know, you can have that much protein? Well, yes, you know, that's the amount you need. And I think, you know, as women, we'd all been trained that you mustn't put fat on it and you have to have this tiny amount of protein. I think you bring some, you know, you raise some really important points, Jen, there. You know, if someone has been overly restricting, right, maybe because of toxic diet culture and all kinds of things for a number of years, yes, for that individual, it may be that actually the right approach is, hey, listen, you've overly restricted, we need to bring things in, we don't want you restricting anymore because restriction for you causes problems.

At the same time, if someone has an overt problematic relationship, with sugar or ultra-processed foods, restricting those things might be the best thing that ever happens to them, right? So one of the things that I guess I just, I find gets people into problems these days. You know, there's great that there's so much content out there. There's so much information of people to consume. And the downside is that too much of it becomes black or white. It's either that or that.

And the truth is, a lot of different approaches work for a lot of different people. So the question is, what's the right approach for you? For you. And you have to, the only way you're an n-equals-one experiment, this is what I've found with my own experience, and you have to work out which foods those are that trigger you and that don't, and how to nourish yourself with the right amounts of foods that you need for your, you know, brain.

our genetics is so unique, aren't there? We've all got these different sort of... I think it's not, for me, it's not only our genetics. We've all got a different trauma history, a different childhoods. Yes. And, you know, I used to see this all the time with patients that, you know, people think, oh, you know, my mum did this. It's in my genes. Well, yeah. Or it could be that you saw your mother's problematic relationship with food as a child and she emotionally at. So you also emotionally at. And I've also seen a aware, and I'm not blaming anyone when I say this, it's just a neutral observation that's, and it could be dads as well, you know, it could be that if your adult caregivers when you

were growing up emotionally ate and they did it in front of you, sometimes they'll do that with you because it's a bonding, hey, I don't feel good. Yes. Let's all have enough chocolates. Yeah, let's all have ice cream. Oh, for sure there's a family culture. Yeah, and again, I'm not blaming anyone here, But maybe you just observed that, you know, embodied it. And then at 40 years old now, that's now problematic for you. Maybe you got away with it as a teenager, but you ain't getting away with it anymore. And so for that individual, that needs to be looked at. I mean, I guess you spent...

Those behaviours are so ingrained in our psyche, aren't they? And I think the other thing, which is super important, is that... So we don't give our kids caffeine or alcohol. or drugs. We just don't, but we give them sugar. And often that's kind of glorified, isn't it? You know, you're banging knee, you're crying, you know, come and have, come and sit down and, you know, have a lollipop or something. And so we give our children these foods that we now know, because we've got the studies that show that they, you know, they're altering the structure and function of their brains.

and I think society doesn't yet, it's changing, it's improving, but society doesn't yet view these foods with enough skepticism and enough concern for our children's health because once, as we've already said, once the brain is wired for addiction, it's wired. And if those children have got, there is a bit of a genetic component, there's also the kind of, like you say, the family culture component. If there's a traumatic situation going on, we show a brilliant video of Eric Clapton,

who was famous for his drug and alcohol problems. And an interviewer says to him, you know, so when did it start? Was it cocaine kind of thing? He says, no, it was sugar. He said when I was a kid, that was how I altered my, it's the thing I had available to alter my consciousness,

my sense of, you know, how I felt. And so that was what I used. And I've spoken to a lot of people who say similar things. That was what they had available. They were in very difficult situations. But they could get sugar, ice cream, you know, crisps. And that was their comfort. You almost learn it subconsciously.

You know, the human desire for most behaviours comes from this. this need to change our state, right? We don't like the way we're feeling, you know, boredom, frustration, anger, whatever it might be, right? Lonely, yeah. And so we want to engage in something to change that. And that something could be Instagram, TikTok. We're not talked about scrolling, but that's another dopamine hit.

It could be a cigarette. Yep. It could also be food. A drink, alcohol. And in many ways, that's, and in many ways, all try to do the same thing. So the question is, what have you been conditioned to? What's your kind of innovative commerce drug of choice? What's available? Yeah, and you bring it up with the children. And I think that's, you know, I had Professor Dale Bredison on a few months ago,

this amazing neurologist, the first person to publish studies showing a reversal of Alzheimer's. This was early, right? But I think his first trial was in 2014, and it's a very novel approach. And I've spoke as some of his patients. I've been out and done intenses within America and helped him. And it's pretty phenomenal, Dale's approach. And when he came on, because one of the things we were talking about is, if someone has early cognitive decline, what can be done? And it's, you know, it's not just one thing. It's multiple things. But one of the things that Dale talks about, amongst many others, is reducing sugar intake. Right? Yeah. It talks about insulin resistance in the brain and how important it can be.

And I've seen that with patients before, how it can literally have a marked improvement in cognition. But then you've got the problem of compliance, right? You can know, someone might listen to the podcast with me and Dale and then go to their mum and their carers and say, hey, listen, we need to cut sugar. But it may be very hard to do it. And I said to Dale, the problem is that a lot of people,

a lot of family members, won't deem it. I was like, no, that's, you know. You know, don't deprive them. Exactly, right? And, you know, I guess everyone has got the right to make a decision for their life that they think is the best thing.

So for someone, it might be, yeah, mom hasn't got much time left or dad hasn't got much time left. Why not let them enjoy it for the final few months? Okay, and I have a lot of sympathy with that. But what Dale was saying is that for a lot of people, he said it comes down to the societal education piece where you would naturally perhaps not want to give someone in a certain medical condition a cigarette. You kind of go, listen, hey, you've got cancer here. You've got lung cancer here. Don't smoke, right?

We don't see it the same way with sugar. We don't see it the same way. Which is a problem. Yeah. Yes, exactly. And it's going back to, why do we need to get food addiction recognised as an official condition? I think it legitimizes then the harms it, the harms it can do. And also, then you wouldn't be able to serve ultra-priced food in schools or hospitals. So we don't now, there was a time, wasn't there when you, I remember when my granddad was in hospital, you could have a bottle of Guinness or something. You know, it wasn't banned. Well, now you wouldn't ever see people drinking or smoking in hospital. But if you look at what people are eating and what's in the vending machines and also what's been sold in the foyer

of hospitals. To people like me that really know the harms on a very personal level, it's shocking the nutrition in hospitals and schools. Let's get super practical, Jen. Yes. How might somebody who's listening to this get an idea of whether they have a problematic relationship with food? Are there any symptoms, signs or questions they can ask themselves that would help them identify that. This episode is sponsored by Sleep Reset. Now, many people struggling with sleep feel stuck between two options. Take sleeping pills or keep suffering through bad nights. What most people don't realize is that there's actually a clinically proven treatment for insomnia that does not involve medication, CBTI, which stands for cognitive behavioural therapy for insomnia,

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And use code live more to save 20%. How might somebody who's listening to this get an idea of whether they have a problematic relationship with food? Are there any symptoms, signs or questions they can ask themselves that would help them identify that? Yes. So what we did is we took the six symptoms that the WHO used to define substance use disorder.

We've made them into a little screening questionnaire called Craved. So I love an acronym. So Craved is the six symptoms that you'd look out for for any substance use disorder. But as we go through them, I think you and everybody else will see how well these can actually apply to people's behavior with food. So if you play along and, you know, counts up people who people are listening, can say, well, how many of these you feel would apply to you? And three or more is the cutoff in the ICD criteria. Three or more of these symptoms would be the cutoff.

Not for a diagnosis, obviously, because it's not a diagnosis, but this would indicate that maybe you've got some addictive-like symptoms in relation to your food behaviour. So C is obviously for cravings and compulsions. So does someone listening, have a craving or compulsion for a certain food? For certain foods that feel so strong that, you know, you struggle to resist it or you can't resist it. Okay.

Yeah. So I think we can all recognize that. Our stands for reaching for more. And this gets at the idea that we all understand tolerance. We all understand it in relation to alcohol, don't we? So if you have a one drink, you might feel a little bit of an effect. If you have one drink every night, after a while, you're not going to feel so much of an effect from that.

So you might then start having two glasses, one a night to get. So you need more and more to get the same effect. So that's what R stands for, reaching for more. So you might, you know, it might have been a couple of biscuits, but now once you've opened the biscuits, it ends up being half a packet or a whole packet. So needing more and more to feel kind of the feeling that you were... Satiated in some way.

You were hoping to sort of feel calm or whatever it is. A is for activity. is neglected. And this gets at the idea that when people start getting addicted to substances, it sort of starts to fill up their whole lives. So they stop thinking so much about family. They stop thinking about hobbies. They stop thinking about doing well at work. It becomes all encompassing in their minds. It becomes all encompassing and other things sort of, you know, closing down. So is that happening? Can I just ask Jen there? When I was reading out some of the comments before the people left on that YouTube video.

That second comment I read out to you was, I used to lie to my wife and secretly buy ice screen with cash that she couldn't track it. That doesn't quite qualify for A, for activities neglected, does it? It kind of does because that's going to affect your relationship with a wife, this kind of secrecy. You know where you want to be lying to your spouse? Spouse, your partner, do you?

That's not a great position to be in, basically. Not a great place to start, is it? So, yeah, that would definitely count. And you're kind of, yeah, you'll, it would be that preoccupation where, you know, presumably that person is, you know, even while they're perhaps having a conversation with their spouse thinking, right, when can I sneak off? I mean, I can remember doing this thinking, when can I, when can I have half an hour so I can drive to view, this, I literally did this, drive to view cinema and get a Ben and Jerry's ice cream, because that's what I. I really, really want right now. And I sit in the car and eat it and then drive home and pretend that I've been to the post office or something. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

Jennings, what's so interesting is if you did that with anything else, like alcohol or cocaine, right? Yeah. People would naturally go. You've really got a problem. Yeah. You're lying to your husband. Yeah.

You're nipping out of the house. Yes. You're shooting up with your drug of choice. In the car. In the car. and then you get back and you are dishonest about where you've been. Yeah. Because you feel so ashamed and you know it's out of control.

So you don't want to talk about it. Because also the other thing is that the addiction, I have to put it into words really, it wants you to keep getting the substance. So it doesn't want you to talk about it. Yeah. Okay, so we've got cravings that feel so strong that you can't resist. Yes.

R is reaching for more. Reaching for more. Tolerance, the idea of tolerance. Okay, and A is, you know, activities neglected. Okay. I reckon already on those three, there'll be people listening right now. If you're watching it on YouTube, guys, let us know in the comments where you're up to with this. Okay, what about VED?

So V is for volume, and this is losing control with the amount, which is this thing we said, one, there's too many, a thousand is never enough. So maybe, you know, it's pizza night with the kids, and you say, right, I'm just going to have one slice because I'm on a diet this week, one slice with salad. And then it can't be one slice because you end up wanting two, three slices. The kids have gone to bed. You eat, you have the leftovers, you know, you lose control with volume. So V is for volume. E? E is for exclusion. And this is the idea of withdrawal symptoms, which everybody will recognize in terms of any other addiction. We know that one of the key problems of quitting any addictive substances that you get

withdrawal symptoms. So, for example, I quit caffeine a few years ago. I suffered quite badly with withdrawal symptoms that were clearly physiological. Same for alcohol. We know people get withdrawal symptoms, nicotine. So with sugar and ultra-processed foods, you can get sort of hypo sort of shaky feelings. You can get headaches. You can get gastrointestinal problems, sleep problems. Moved problems, everybody recognizes that people can be grumpy as, you know, they market foods, don't they saying, you know, you're very grumpy. So you ought to have a chocolate bar. I saw an advert like that recently. It's all that. It's right. It's, it's, it's hiding in plain sight, basically, the problematic relationship, isn't it? They're actually

marketing it as a cure for the withdrawal symptom that it caused it. Yeah. So, yeah, so ease for an exclusion. So if you get withdrawal symptoms when you try and quit, and of course this is one reason, like you were saying, people can't stay abstinent. And it's because oftentimes they haven't even got through the proper sort of physiological withdrawal phase because it's awful. How long does it typically take for people, would you say? Typically, I would say maybe seven, six, seven, eight days for the sort of physiological withdrawal. Obviously, after that you still get cravings to some extent, but you shouldn't, your physiology should be adjusted. So it's quite a bit of time. You have to be ready before you go through this.

You've got to be prepared. To go through that sort of valley. But if you want to do it, cold turkey, we're going to probably come on to talking about how people might shift towards being more abstinent. You don't have to do it cold turkey. That's just the way that I like to do things. Okay, so V for volume, E for exclusion and you would also. And D is, this is the big one, really. And it's the defining characteristic of any addiction. It's continued use despite damage. So even if you know, so for example, cigarettes, everybody knows the bad few and there's a horrible picture on the thing. Even so, you're going to smoke that cigarette. So it's the same with sugar and ultraprosis foods. Maybe you've got a diagnosis of type 2 diabetes. You know, maybe you know, maybe you know,

you know you're overweight and sort of metabolically not healthy, you'd rather, you know, be losing weight. Even though you've maybe depressed and you know that the way that you eat is affecting your mental health, because you, you know, you feel that's the case. Even so you can't quit. You're continuing to use these ultra-processed foods and sugars to kind of feel better. So you're on that terrible treadmill. So, yeah, despite knowing it's doing you harm, you struggling to quit. I mean, I imagine anyone who's got a problematic relationship with any food will score on the D. Well, they'll definitely score on the D because they want to change.

Exactly. They're wanting to change, wanting to be healthier. And despite knowing the problems of that food, they can't stop eating it. Yes. Okay. So did you score six out of six? I've always scored six on those. So the maximum score is six?

The maximum score six. Okay, fine. So what if, so someone like you in the past would score six? Yes. What if someone just scores a one on that? It's like, yeah, you know what? I sometimes have a craving for that food that I can't something in about it. But, you know, it doesn't affect the rest of my life.

I don't reach some more. I don't have a loss of control on volume. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, so that would be amazing. One or two. It's sort of normal. That's kind of normal. And I would say, great.

Just be careful, be aware that these foods, you know, can be doing harm to the brain. You know, you don't want to have loads of them. If you can, so I do know the occasional, but my mother-in-law, in fact, has biscuits in her cupboard that have been there about six years. So she can take them or leave them. She'll have one. And people like that, because they exist. Yes. And I'm taking this beyond your mother-in-law,

just with people who have a relationship with food that they can have it now and again. Yes. The problem is I think sometimes they can't understand what it's like. I was just thinking that. I was just thinking that. Right? Exactly.

So she really struggled with what it was like to be me and that I couldn't, and she's a lovely cook as well. So she'd make me this amazing cheesecake, which was my favourite thing. Oh, fat, sugar. Yes, a bit of salt in the digestive, but yeah, delicious. And I had to say, you know, it's amazing. I love it, but I just, I'm not going to have any,

because if I have one size, I'm going to eat half the thing. And it's taken her a long time to really see that that can be. She intellectually understands it. But I think people have to really take the leap to be able to say, Yeah, I understand even though that isn't my problem, you know, that if somebody tells you, you know, I'm trying to quit sugar, please support me, then please support them because it is really, really a hard thing to do exactly like alcohol. So if you had a friend that was quitting alcohol, you wouldn't take them to the pub or bake them, you know, bring them a special bottle of whiskey because it was a birthday. You'd encourage them. You'd say, let's go a walk. You know, I've made you a nice meal. You know, well done you. You'd really encourage them. You'd really encourage them. You'd say, let's go a walk. You know, you'd really encourage them. You'd say, let's go a walk. You'd encourage them. Yeah. We're getting into possible strategies that people can use. And I want to be mindful of the fact that not everyone listening is going to identify full on six out of six. No. Right? Some are going to be, you know, at three, which still qualifies, I guess. So three,

you know, maybe, so it's a bit more like with sort of saying, in quotes, harmful use it. You know, maybe there are times or vulnerabilities when you're eating too many of those kinds of foods. Or could it be for some people, I certainly would recognise this myself, you know, if you're super stressed or there's stuff going on or one of your family members isn't well, you might go to these things, these foods, as, you know, just a coping mechanism, basically. Yeah, David's more in this category as well. For people who don't know, David is your husband, Dr. David Unwin, who was on the podcast, a few months ago now.

Very popular episode talking about all his work with low-carb diets, reversing tight-two diabetes and metabolic dysfunction. So continue, just in case people haven't heard that one. Yes, so he was definitely a harmful user. He did develop type 2 diabetes, and that was because he did, you know, he did have a sweet tooth, he did love all those food. But he wasn't, he could come back from holiday and just go, right, I'm having a healthy week. And just, that was fine.

He could do that very easily. he could sort of reset and not eat those foods. Whereas I would come back from a holiday and if we'd kind of overindulge on those kinds of foods, I would find it really, really hard to sort of pull back. You know, the lid was off, if you like. So you identify as a food addict and David does not. He does not.

Okay, that's really interesting. Yeah. Okay, so let's think about these practical strategies. You mentioned already that cold turkey is one option, but it's not the only option. So if someone has basically identified with several of those on the craved questionnaire, they're going, you know, I think I've got a problematic relationship with certain foods some of the time. How do you start advising them if they want to start changing that, basically?

Yeah. So number one is we talk right at the beginning about this lighthouse, about why would you want to change? Because it's actually going to be quite hard. So what's your guiding light? What's going to really keep you going when the cravings come? What's your reason for wanting to change your relationship with foods? You know, and kind of, you know, just saying, oh, I want to lose weight, isn't a good enough reason. You know, what would be better if you lost weight?

What would be different about your life? You know, why do you want to do this and what's that sort of motivation? So it might be to do with, you know, your kids, being able to play with the kids or, you know, staying alive long enough to see the kids do certain things. you maybe want to be an example to the kids, but finding some real motivation is probably step one. Okay. Step two is being totally honest,

brutally honest, about the drug foods, again in quotes. So which foods occupy your mind might you have a secret stash, or often food at least have secret stashes of their favorite things because they don't want to run out. you know what are those things you know what are you kind of literally thinking it's going to be really hard to live without it's nearly always the things David has lots of patients who say I literally can't live without I couldn't live without bread you know lots of people it's not sweet things always it's say it can be savoury things as well and bread is such a common one actually

so if there are foods like that that you're saying I couldn't live without Hmm Probably that's something to think about And I would you know Make an honest list Of all the foods

That you're having Where the relationship Is that one of loss of control Yeah cravings Needing more and more Losing control of the amount Continuing to have them

Even though you know They're doing you harm Yeah I've heard you say That you often ask people To write down unless, you know, I lose control over and then actually wipe down those foods. There's something powerful about rice or something down.

You can think about it and go, yeah, yeah. But I think, well, we know there's incredible benefits to journaling. I think one of the benefits is that you see it in front of you. You've had to take it out of your brain. Put it down. Put it down. You see it back. It kind of makes it real.

I think in a way that just thinking about things often doesn't. Yes. No, absolutely. The other thing I didn't mention about when our brain's in that state of high dopamine and that sort of reward centres flowing. Another thing that happens is it actually cuts us off from our frontal lobes. And again, they think this is probably an evolutionary thing, that when you were driven to go and hunt, you have to, in a way, not think about it too much

because it's dangerous. So you may have decided, oh, we won't bother today. No, you needed to be really driven. So our frontal lobes are a bit cut off. So in the moment of the cravings and the eating and our frontal lobes aren't really, so you can't think your way out of addiction. You have to sort of plan your way out. So one way is to be writing things down to be really clear and to be making a plan because then you've sort of put your frontal lobes on the paper, if you like. And you've done that at a time when, your brain's working properly. Yeah. Once you're in the food, it's really hard to stop that behavior when you're on the runway. So, yeah, so write it down.

I think you said that one of the things you asked people to write down is, I know I'm in trouble when. Oh, yes, that's such a good one. I think that's such a great piece of advice. Yes. I know I'm in trouble when. And that's the moment before, you know, you're going to get on that runway. So, for example, what my ones would be, I know I'm in trouble when I'm randomly opening kitchen doors, cupboard doors in the kitchen.

I don't know if you ever do that. And you're not even hungry, especially we just kind of, I'm just going to have a look what's in here. Does anyone not do that? If you're unlucky, there are things in there you probably shouldn't be having. So another thing that we'll talk about is that you can really engineer your own environment to support your recovery. But, oh, just so I'm looking in there. And of course, if there was chocolate in there, and I was, you know, I'd had a long day or something stressful going on or I was hungry, angry, lonely, tired, bored. I might succumb if I saw it because then the minute I see it,

the dopamine's already going on the visual cues. Yeah. And that's how the, of course, that's how the marketing works for all these, you know, companies that have their branding. You know, the, well, we won't mention any, but everybody knows the branding for the big companies. and it's almost like the minute you see that branding or that advertising. That's why they advertise in the evening on the television because we're all vulnerable.

Willpower's gone. War Pad has absolutely gone. We're sitting watching the telly, get on to whoever delivers, you know, delivers the food. Well, that, of course, has made it hard because, you know, you don't even need to go out anymore and go and you can get it delivered to, you know, while she's still on the sofa watching, which of course, for people who are prone to that makes it really difficult. Yes. This idea of writing down, I know I'm in trouble when, and as you said for you, when I'm randomly opening cupboards in the kitchen looking for something, which of course may not be physical hunger.

It's more likely to be emotional hunger. It reminds you of something literally earlier this week, a chat called Near Ayal was in the studio. He's an author. His latest book is called Beyond Belief. And in that book and in our podcast together, he shared how he was trying to lose weight for years. And he said every diet worked when I was on it. Yes. Okay?

Yep. But he didn't stay on many of them for long. And he explains what changed. But one of the tactics he spoke about, beyond food, this is just for making change in life, it's something called mental contrasting. And a lot of people only imagine best-case scenarios, right? So on January the 1st, oh, you know, I'm going to eat well this year and go to the gym. Like, you're just imagining best case scenario.

Yeah. And he was talking, and I think it's very similar to your exercise about this idea that when he started to get really good with his choices or he was making better choices for his goal, he was also planning what happens when I'm out for dinner and someone offers me chocolate cake. Yeah. Because I know I'm going to be tempted. So I guess he was calling this mental contrasting, but it's the same kind of approach, isn't it? You have to rehearse it.

You have to plan when your frontal cortex, your rational brain is online, not when it's offline. And maybe you've had a couple of glasses of wine and you're like, yeah, yeah, go on, I'll have it. Yes. And so let's say someone wants, because I think peer pressure is really hard, right? It's really hard. You've worked with so many patients and clients to help them through this, right? So if someone it says, look, when I'm left to my own devices, I'm pretty good.

At home, you've got your own environment. Or at work when it's someone. one's birthday and they bring the quality street and all the home bake cakes or whatever. Yeah. And people come around and say, oh, it's fine. It's just one, right? One's not going to do you any harm. What advice do you have for that individual? How can they handle that scenario? Yeah. It's really hard for people in the beginning because you're kind of trying to change how people see you to some extent, aren't you? And how you see yourself. And how you see yourself and how to

have those sort of difficult conversations. And I think it is, again, as we were saying at the beginning, it's a very individual thing. So people need to work out what would they be comfortable saying. So we sometimes, you know, give them a few examples or what's wonderful in a group, of course, you can say, you know, what people would say, oh God, I find it really hard when Jane at work, who, you know, is a fantastic baker and she'll bring in the cupcakes and you can say to the group, you know, what, what, how have you handled that? and how have you handled that? And we get some examples.

When you say the groups, you're not talking about at work with your colleagues, you're talking about in the sort of... In a treatment group or a support group, you know, it can be really good to get other people's advice on that. So we would often say, well, I would sort of say, how it is that I'd handled it and some... They'd get some other ideas and then they'd say, well, maybe I could do this.

And we had one lady actually who had a group of friends. They always went out for coffee and a cake. It was kind of part of her, important part of her week. and she was like, how am I going to handle it? And then she rehearsed it with a husband. Like, you know, what she was going to say, she was going to say, you know, I'm really trying to look after my health. You know, I'm going to come for coffee.

I love being with you guys, but, you know, I'm not going to have the cake. And I really hope you can all support me because, you know, this is so important to me. So, but it has to come from that person, doesn't it? They have to feel that that's something they really could say. But it's great. It is great to rehearse. it to sort of, you know, say it to a loved one that that's what you're going to do so that you don't find yourself in that situation and you haven't got a script almost. You haven't

got a, it sounds like that's what he was saying, that he would rehearse what he was going to say. And I would just add to that, you know, if you in averticomers fail, at first of all, it's not failure, right? Each time you do that, it's a learning process. It's never failure. Right? But let's say you're trying to cut back on sugar or certain, you know, foods that you have a problem after relationship, like let's say cake, you're trying not to have. If you do succumb and have it, don't feel bad about it. I guess try and analyze what happened. Exactly. What led up to it, you know, background factors and then what would you do differently next time? What have you learned? Because generally, yeah, people are a bit disappointed in themselves and they often don't

feel so well. If they've been off the sugars for a while and then they have it, they usually feel pretty rubbish actually. So they're able to say, well, you know, I've learned I don't feel so great when I do that. Often it's sort of things like traveling or, you know, they're stuck somewhere without, you know, they're on a train, there's nothing else to eat that you can buy that they want to eat that's sort of from the food car. So, you know, they might think, well, another time I'm going to take stuff with me. And that's a great learning point. So next time. And then also the the thing is that if you have a slip up, just get back on track as fast as you can. Don't let it slide because you like you say, self-criticizing or thinking, I'm hopeless I'll never do it.

You know, it's all too hard. Just learn from it and get back on tracks. Like riding a bike, you just have to get back on. One thing I think a lot about Jen is how skills that we learn in one area of life are transferable to so many other areas. And I think there's a, there's real relevance to what you're just talking about there, right? So let's say you're someone, and, you know, frankly, I've seen this thousands of times over my career and I've got friends who struggle with this, right? So this is so, so common, but they struggle to assert themselves and speak up for themselves in particular environments. So let's say you have a problematic relationship with cakes or desserts when you're out with your friends, whatever. And you struggle.

You don't want to let people down. What will they think? You know, all your buddies. Everyone else is having it. Everyone's having one. Yeah. I thought I'm going to be the weird one if I don't have it. They're all going to be thinking, oh, God, look at him or whatever, right? Which is very, very real. If you can learn the skill over time, maybe you'll get it wrong a few times, I've been able to speak up for yourself. Yeah. And it said, hey, guys, listen, you guys, go for your life, enjoy it, have it. I'm just not eating like that anymore. A, you've got a problem.

Well, one of the problems is that when you, you definitely see this with alcohol, but I've seen this with my mates before with sugar, you or some of my mates, I should say. It almost feels like a criticism of them. They often take it as a critique of them because you, whatever, deciding not to drink or not having a dessert, in some ways there's a mirror back onto them.

Yes. Only if they've got a problematic relationship. Because if they don't, it's like, why the hell does it matter? Why do they care? Listen, I'm going to enjoy my chocolate cake. If you don't want it and you don't want to have it, I'm still going to enjoy. Right? But going back to my point is if you're someone who struggles and you learn how to speak up for yourself,

that won't just help you with that food. That will help you in every other aspect of your life. Absolutely. Because you're putting yourself first. Yeah. You could even look at it as go, oh my, my. God, it's so unlucky that I've got this. And yes, of course, in the modern food environment, it is unlucky if you have that sort of relationship with food. It's not ideal, but you can also

turn it into a real strength. If you can learn the skills to get through it, it can transform your life in so many other ways. And you're right, the sugar pushers will come out of the woodwork when you try and change your behavior that some people will try and push back. But it is usually because you're making them feel uncomfortable because they've got a problem. problem. Okay, so that's social settings. What's your take on cold turkey versus gradual? Right. There's many roads to the same destination. And this has, it has to be individual because you've got to feel that's the right, you know, the right way for you. So some people choose to sort of slowly cut down or to maybe eliminate perhaps the worst defending food. You know, they might

decide to sort of cut things out a bit by bit. And that can work. It can obviously take a bit longer and it can be for people that are a very kind of end stage, let's say. I don't think it would have worked for me because there would still be, you're still having in a sense some of the substance, aren't you? You're still having maybe other things with sugars or refined carbohydrates. So that can sort of pull you back in.

So there's pros and cons to that. There's obviously pros and cons to going cold turkey because while it can be, it's a bit of a shock to the system and you can feel pretty rough for, as we've said, about a week. The other thing is that anybody on medication of diabetes or blood pressure or other medications shouldn't do that without talking to their healthcare provider because if your blood sugar goes down and you're on, say, blood sugar lowering medications, we don't want anybody. coming to any harm or your blood pressure can sort of reduce as well. So anyone who's on medication probably shouldn't go cold turkey without unless they've got proper supervision for their medications. A lot of those of us were sort of addiction problems. They've got very black and white brains. You know, it's kind of yes or no, it's black or white. So for me, cold turkey felt like once I'd understood the, once I'd got to the point of understanding that it was an addiction

and that these were the problematic things, then it just made sense to me, right, okay, that was the right thing to do, just to quit completely, and then deal with the consequences, if you like. So there's the sort of physiological withdrawal, and then there's the sort of you can get sort of cravings for a while afterwards. And the other thing is that we've talked a lot about food, but like any other addiction recovery program, It isn't just about the food, as do you know, because you've spoken to so many people about sort of, you know, this same sort of topic that it has to be beyond the food as well.

You have to understand if you've been using food for comfort to fill a hole to sort of, you know, deal with difficult memories or whatever. You have to find a way, another way to deal with those things because otherwise you're going to get drawn back. in to the food or some other substance at some time. So it's all about advocating for yourself, as you said, you know, self-care on many levels. So I've had to learn, I was an exercise hater, particularly at school, mostly because I was overweight, mostly because I was addicted to sugar. But I've come to love it. I've come to love exercising to feel the mental benefits of it and the physical benefits. I, you know, I've had to sort of use techniques like, you know, yoga and these kinds of things to sort of feel calmer. I have hobbies that are very calming, like knitting

and crochet that I can do to sort of keep away from the food, just something else to think about. You know, so people have to think beyond the food as well. Yeah, I guess the point that comes to mind there is, I think, a really empowering message for people. From your story, Jen, and your husband, David's story when he was on the podcast a few months ago, it really seems as though both of you have come into a new lease of life with your health and, frankly, your lives in your 50s and 60s. And I just want to highlight that because many people feel it's too late for them to change. When you just said there that you used to hate exercise

and you think it's primarily because you were overweight, primarily because you were addicted to sugar, there will be so many people listening who also recognize that and have told themselves a story that exercise is not for them. But actually, it wasn't that exercise wasn't for them. It was in the state in which they were in they were unable to enjoy moving their bodies.

Correct. But if you can gain some degree of mastery over your food environment, recognize it as an addiction, if it is an addiction for you, take certain steps to change things, well, you never know. Like, David said to me, how was David now? Was he 67? 67. 67, yeah. He's telling me he's like, he's probably the fittest he's ever been. He looks good, he feels good, he's cognitively sharp, he's running faster than he's run before.

This is a very, very empowering message of people. So if anyone feels it's too late and actually they've had problems with sugar their whole life, you Jen and your husband David, I think, are shining examples that you can change at any time. You just start to feel, once you've quit all of that stuff, you weirdly start to want to move and you start to feel more energetic. And we've seen that in many, many of David's patients as well. It wasn't about getting them to take more exercise to lose weight. Once they get control of the food, they naturally lost weight.

And then we didn't even say go on exercise. They'd come back and say, oh, I've joined the gym, or I'm walking every evening after my meal, or they just feel more like moving because their mitochondria working, your brain's working. You just feel more like sort of exercising. What was the same? Was it Chris, David's patient.

who I spoke to as part of my Channel 4 show that came out in January, live well with a drug-free doctor. I remember chatting to Chris. And he also, when he was, you know, because he showed me all these images, you know, food was his identity. All the images he's shown me he was really overweight, and there was always food around, and he was happening a great time with his food, yeah.

And, you know, he was just telling me how he walks every day and how loads. He goes to the gym, so many times a week, he boxes, stuff that he never used to do. So I think this is also another unrecognized benefit of dealing with this. You actually get so much vitality back when you start to tackle this, don't you? Yeah. And at vitality you perhaps have never experienced before. Yeah, yeah.

And for me, of course, it became a passion as well that other people should have this information. because it took me, so I'm a psychologist, I'm so embarrassed that it took me until I was like, until I was about 52 to put it all together. Because I was always wondered about why, you know, why I'm a psychologist, I can't control my behavior around food. It was kind of even more shameful, even more embarrassing. But I'd always been trying to work it out. And eventually when I worked it out, I was like, you know, other people need to know this

because it makes such a difference, that piece of information that could it be an addictive problem? And then, of course, we know that the treatment, the effective treatments for addiction is abstinence. And once you've, that's it. I mean, we could have done the podcast in like a minute. I could have just said that.

Really, if it's an addiction problem, abstinence is the treatment. And once I've done this, Once I'd had that aha moment, I was like, other people need to know this because that's not the general messaging around health and fitness. Yeah. One thing that I guess is in your favour is that you and David did this together. That has been amazing and it has been a sort of evolving story where, you know, we found the sort of the low carbohydrate way of eating. applied that to his patients to such amazing kind of results.

But for somebody with food addiction, that can be, yes, eating in a low carbohydrate way can be very, very good. But you need to understand the addiction piece because otherwise people slip, and this is what happened to me. I did really well on low carb. I lost a lot of weight. But then a bit like the guy you've had on who said, you know, it's really good when you're on it,

there's all this kind of, you know, keto treats aren't there, keto baking. You know, obviously I was going to get drawn back into that because I love baking, so I'd start baking with, you know, sweeteners and almond flour. And then that becomes problematic because you're going to get drawn into that or like nut butters and things like that.

You can still have that relationship with things that seem kind of in quote, healthy. So I had to really understand right. you know, those kinds of foods for me are addictive, so I just need to leave them to the side of my plate, literally, and just focus on eating real whole foods as nature intended. If someone's listening, Jen, and I know there'll be many, who are thinking, listen, the problem is,

I try and do this, but my partner keeps certain foods in the house, Yes. Right? Which means that at some point I crack and end up beating those foods. I want to know what your advice is for that person. And then let's expand it out a little because a lot of people will say, and I'm interested as you'll take on what this actually means as a psychologist, they'll go, yeah, but I need to keep sweets and sugars and chocolates in the house for the kids.

Or the grandkids. Right, so two scenarios there. One is that the partner is not playing ball. or they don't, maybe, you know, I don't mean unintentionally. Maybe they're just like, they don't recognise how serious it is. Yeah. And then children, so take them in whichever what you want. Yeah, so living in a household with other people who don't want to be abstinent,

yes, of course, that's a challenge. It's not insurmountable, but it does make it more different, difficult. Yeah, so I'm so lucky because we both kind of, more or less the same, a little bit different, but more or less the same. And again, there are many possible answers. is, yeah, to really have that conversation. If it's a partner that loves you, hopefully they want you to be healthy and well. So you have that conversation about, you know, I'm beginning to think about my problem in this way and I really want to try and, you know, be abstinence from

these foods, which are my problematic foods. Sometimes partners are willing to have a go themselves. You know, they may be interested themselves in seeing how that goes. Otherwise, it's a negotiation about, you know, can I have this cupboard is my food and you keep your food over here. Or sometimes we've had people by their husbands like lock boxes and give them the key. So they have their, if they want to be in chocolate and crisp, they have it in a locked box out of sight. So that the person knows they can't get into that box

or that it's locked in a filing cabinet, something like that. you hear that, you go, it's pretty hard to not make the case this as an addiction, right? When you hear things like that, a locked box. Yeah, yeah, that people have asked their husbands to keep it outside or only to eat it outside the home. So it's an individual kind of negotiation about what's possible really in the home. You know, I say having a cupboard so the cupboard you open only has the things in that you want to be eating or a shelf on the fridge that's your food. It is more difficult. if you're seeing it all the time.

But Jen, just to bring up alcohol for a minute, I guess... Yeah, I use the same analogy. You use the analogy. And if you were, if you were recognised as an alcoholic and you were seeking help for that... You'd hope that your partner didn't... Would not keep alcohol in the house. Sit next to on the sofa having a drink while you're watching.

Yeah, but again, it goes back to that sort of theme that's been playing out throughout this conversation that we don't really recognize it. You don't take it as seriously. As seriously. It's like, oh, yeah, just a bit of sugar. And it's incredibly serious. So, you know, it's going to kill you the same way as cigarettes.

Yeah, I think that's the key point, isn't it? It's like, look, humans are hardwired to crave sugar. As we've already touched on, in our evolutionary past, if it was around, we might gorge on it and store a bit of fat to get us through four times when food wasn't around. But in the modern food environment, for most people, food is always around. So that so-called winter never actually comes, right? It's always summer. And so we know what are the problems today?

Well, metabolic dysfunction is probably one of the driving factors for most chronic diseases. Heart attacks, strokes, many types of outside. and a large amount, maybe 40% of cancers, are driven by metabolic dysfunction, as well as other things, right? But the consequences of not being able to get on top of your food intake, for some people, can be frankly life-threatening and life-shortening. So this is not a trivial matter. It's not a trivial matter. It's like, no, no, for some people, this actually kills you. Yeah. And if you've got a food addiction, you're seven times more likely to have to have to. type 2 diabetes, for example. So there's been studies done on, and we know that the prevalence

in the general population of food addiction using those sort of symptoms is 14%. Well, that's more than 6 million adults in the UK. 14%. 14%. So it's very similar to alcohol as a problematic thing. That's kind of what? It's huge, 1 in 7. So in a... Yeah. Yeah. And it's the same. same in kids and adolescents. It's terrifying. You know, those kids have been brought up in this food environment. You know, when we were brought up, it wasn't quite as it is today. Even Halloween, right?

When I was a kid, it wasn't that bigger thing. No. Somewhere, I think, in the last 10 years, it's kind of from America, it feels like it's accelerated into being like the most ridiculous sugar fest. Every celebration has become a ridiculous sugar fest, hasn't it? Valentine's, Mother's Day, Easter, Christmas. Yeah, once Christmas is done, it's like, well, let's start getting people ready for the next celebration. We've been had, really.

Yeah. Once you see it, it's everywhere. Yeah. You're being marketed this stuff all the time. You're going to the garage. Someone who works in this space had a clicker and she thought, right, I'm going to see how many times a day I'm queued to kind of eat these foods. And they're everywhere. So you're going to fill up your car.

You know, you have to walk a gauntlet, an absolute gauntlet of snack food just to pay the bill. There's advertising hoardings. It's on the television. It's on the, you're scrolling on the phone. So we're being queued, cued, queued. As you say, you're surprised at anyone manages to actually resist. And I think we want to empower people to say, listen, it's not your fault. It's okay to fight back.

It is difficult. Yeah. What are you going to do? You have to do something. And there are communities of people that are doing it. You have to sort of find your tribe to some extent. It's really important that, you know, you wouldn't expect someone with an alcohol problem to kind of go it alone. They would have a support group or a counsellor or somebody supporting them.

And I think, you know, it's really important that people kind of find their little support group or they have somebody who's really with them on this. So if it's not going to be your partner, you know, try and find somebody else or a community to sort of get in mesh. We didn't talk about kids. Do you want to go back to that? We can do, yeah. Part two of the question, because that's really difficult as well. And everybody thinks, oh, you know, they're so cute.

They should let them have a treat. And, you know, I was guilty of this. Because I didn't work this out until, yeah, I was maybe 52. So obviously, I raised my kids pretty heavily on the carbohydrate side because that's what. And we used to have carbohydrate corner, which had the biscuits in for the kids to go and get. So many people have sweet drawers, aren't they? Oh, yeah. I apologize to them about it. I'm sorry about it. But fortunately, they all eat like we do now.

So they're in their 20s, aren't they, I think. Yeah, 20s and 30s. And they're all, yeah, really. David was saying to me that some of that dry was vanity as well. They realized that actually. They felt better. They looked better. They felt lean and had six-packed and stuff. when they ate that way, when they ate in that sort of low carbohydrate way that you and David eats. Yeah, yeah.

So I think for some people, vanity is a motivating factor. Feedback, isn't it? Totally. It's an important fact. We've got a granddaughter, she's 14 now. And whenever she eats old-prososal or sugar, she just breaks out. So she just knows, she just knows not to do it. Yeah, so it's difficult with the kids.

But I think, you know, you're the adults, you're in charge of the home environment. Yeah. One of the things I figured out early on in my career that was really helpful for previous patients was control the environment you can control. It's super important. Don't use the willpower in your house because you're going to have to use it up when you fill up petrol, when you go to the news agents, when you go and get your coffee and you're walking past the pan of chocolate that are waving at you, right? You're going to have to use your willpower there. Some people, there is a school of thought they push back and they say, well, that's not dealing with. with the relationship with foods.

They'll say that you should be able to get to a point where you can have it there and resist. And it's not that I necessarily disagree with that. I just think that you're just making life harder for yourself if you're having those foods there. Because one evening, you are going to be tired, stressed, lonely. You will have had a bad day. And if it's there and you're opening the cupboards

looking for something and there's chocolate there, you're probably going to have it. I'm totally with you on that. We have to resist it all day long. Let's, you know, keep it safe at home. I don't want to eat it. So I'm not going to have it at home. And that's assuming you made the choice that you don't want to eat it. If you want to eat it and have it home, like we're not saying don't have it. We're assuming that you're trying to change your relationship with those foods. Don't put it in the basket. That's the point. That's the point at which the decision is made in the supermarket. What do you do with your grandkids? They're just so used to eating the way that we eat. So it's sort of non-food treats.

So we do other things with them. So Easter will do other activity, play games or, you know, walk up mountains or do something else. Yeah. It's hard. We've done the same thing, right? And it is hard because you are basically resisting the prevailing tide of culture. Yeah, absolutely. And it is much harder work.

And you need time and energy. And of course, not everyone has that. And so I do recognise that. But I guess we're sharing this to not make people feel bad to show what might be possible. Yeah. And how there is a way to fight back against the food industry here. And that we've been there. We've, you know, that was my story.

And we've tried to do something different. And it is possible to do that. And it's not been easy at times. But that doesn't mean it's worth, not worth trying to persist. and just do a little bit better every day. If someone's listening, Jen, and they want to get involved with the community, maybe they don't have friends or family who is supportive, but they're really committed. Is that a way they can get in touch with you or your groups?

And if so, how I know you have the book, Fork in the Roads. Falk in the Roads. It's a great resource. Yeah, I wrote in lockdown and it was sort of meant to be, yeah, for people that are probably listening to this conversation, it was for people like me. you'd have these sort of lifelong struggles. It explains all about food addition and the symptoms and some of the science of it.

And Davey's done the forward. But then it's also like, you know, what to eat and how to deal with these social situations that we all get ourselves in and what other things you might want to think about in your life. But it's a very little book and all the proceeds go to the charity, the collaborative health community that I work with. and that are, we're, you know, campaigning and doing research on food addiction. And, you know, if you've got a partner or a member of the family that doesn't get it, read the book yourself, but then hand it over to them because it's a quick read

and it explains the problem to them in sort of simple terms. So, yeah, so that's one thing to, yeah, so the collaborative health community, you can look on our website and we've got information and resources for professionals, for professionals and we're just about to launch some training for healthcare professionals so that they can understand how to recognise food addiction in the clinic and what to do about it

and also got information for the public and some more resources that people can look at. You have practiced as a clinical psychologist for over 30 years, I believe, and I've heard you talk before about the role of hope in healthcare. Why, in your opinion, is it so important to have hope? So, yes, hope was my passion really before I got into all of this space about food addiction. And my doctorate on the role of hope in healthcare.

hope is about having a sense of a possible better future. It's about believing that you can see the steps to that future and believing that you've got the motivation to take those steps or the, yeah, you've got the, you're going to be able to take those small steps. And when people have that sense of hope, it has such a massive impact on how they cope with everything in life, really. And even about, you know, things like the level of pain the experience or the amount of medication that they take or even, it's even being linked with longevity to have that sense of moving towards a preferred future. And I think often in healthcare settings, people are so, they've lost hope, really. Yeah. And they've come. It's always like a sort of, you know, particularly a lot of people that come to see us.

It's like you're the last house on the street, really. They've, you know, they've tried everything and they've sort of become very hopeless. So it's very important as healthcare practitioners that we're able to. to instill that sense that, you know, they can get to it. They can get to a better place. And they've got the wherewithal to do that. You were talking about sort of, you know, often people that we see are very competent in many walks of their lives. They've got successful careers or, you know, they've got a lovely family.

But there's this one area that they can't crack. Like in this case, we're talking about the food. and they've sort of lost hope there. It's about trying to give people the hope and the confidence that they can actually take the steps. You know, they've got that within them to take the steps to this better future. And, you know, not that it's all going to be plain sailing,

but, you know, that they will get there in the end with, you know, with some care and support. And often all you're trying to do is uncover that for people. You know, like for Chris that you spoke to, it was only a matter of showing him that there was, way that he could recover his health, which he at that point probably could barely believe that he would end up on no medication and going to the gym every day. Well, I think, Jen, what you clearly do with this work and what you've been doing for many

years to try and raise awareness of food addiction, sugar addiction, UPF addiction, that this is a problem that many people are struggling with, that we need to recognize and we need to give people solutions to or certainly practical steps they can take that is giving people hope. I'm sure there's many people who've taken hope just from hearing you today. Even the fact that you've managed to, I don't know if you would say you've conquered your food addiction or you've learned how to manage it. You've learned to live with it. You've learned to live with it.

Migraine or something like that. You know, it's the same. It's always all type two diabetes. It's in the background, but it's not impinging on your quality of life. Can I just go through a few questions that some of the same. of my, of course, the listeners and people on Instagram have sent in, maybe just take three or four of them. Something you've kind of covered so you can give a quick overview if you want. Rennie says, Jen, I'd like some tips please on reducing sugar intake in children and encouraging

them to make healthier choices without feeling like they are missing out. As well as that, Jen, she also says, sometimes I feel I'm the worst mum ever. right? Because I ultimately crack and let them do these things. So it's so hard, isn't it? Real sympathies. You know, bringing up children, it's complicated. You know, the screens and the devices and the food environment, I think it's incredibly hard. So the fact that you're trying to do your best and you're thinking about it, I think that's so laudable.

I think we've talked quite a lot about not having stuff in the world. the house and I think that is a great place to start. It's a really good place to start. Also, you can start with breakfast. That's another thing that we often say to families is, you know, start with a good, healthy breakfast with maybe eggs or, you know, full fact, yoghurt, these kinds of things that aren't sweetened, not sugary cereals. Not sugary cereals. It's a good place to start with kids. And actually, you know, kids love baking their eggs. You know, that can be a great place to smell. Or another way is to help involve them with. making stuff. So with our grandkids, if they stay over and they're going to school the next

morning, I just do a quick smoothie with like forest fruits, usually some frozen fruits because that's a bit cheaper, full fat, yogurt, you know, blitz are all up and they slug that down before they go to school. But they love to make things like that kids, don't they? So I think if you can involve them in cooking, yeah, don't have the worst things. things in the house. Yeah, great advice. Two tips. The other thing that I would add is,

one thing I try to do with my children is help them start to see the relationship between what they eat and how they feel. So if they have been at a party or whatever, and they've had pizza, whatever it might be, and they don't feel good afterwards, or, I don't know, they come out on the spot the next morning. Do you know, whatever I mean? Just some way of trying to connect.

that when I eat like this, this happens. When I eat like this, I've got more energy. I believe that long term, that's a very helpful thing because ultimately at some point they're going to be out of your control. They're going to make their own choices. And if they can see the impact of their choices, it's much easier to start changing that. Sarah says, I would be interested to know

if not being breastfed increases the likelihood of sugar addiction. I don't know if you know anything about that. I don't know that there's any evidence about it, but this is a thing that I've actually tweeted a thing to say, who out there has got a sugar addiction who was bottle fed? I really think there is a link, but I don't know that there's any evidence. But it's something that I've really thought about.

And, you know, a lot of the formulas did have sugar in. I was bottle fed, you know, it wouldn't be surprising that if that sort of, you know, set you up to some extent. Now, you know, we know that people have to bottle feed. So we don't want anybody sort of feeling guilty about that. But it may be that in those of us with that slight genetic vulnerability, maybe that is a factor. You know, to choose the feeds that don't have the excess sugars in them.

Yeah, and I want to just double down on what you just said there, which is we don't want anyone to feel guilty. People often have to bottle feed for a variety of different reasons. And it's like, you know, breastfeeding is really good for the gut microbiome. But if you had to bottle feed your child, there were other things you can do to help increase the health of the gut microbiome. Yeah. And same thing here.

Yeah, if you've had to do that, don't feel guilty. Just try to absorb the things that we've been talking about and figure out how you can actually change things at home perhaps to account for that. Sharon says, I'm really struggling with this. I'm definitely addicted to all things sugary. I read books, I Google the subject, I'd literally last about two to three days, then I crumble. It's not just what I eat, it's the quantity to, how can I get past this when I feel I have no willpower or discipline? That's kind of our entire conversation, I guess, Jen, isn't it? Yeah, definitely, definitely. And the thing is, in the early days, to not

be rest, don't be restricting your proteins and your fats because that's how you build a body and brain and you've got to repair the brain. You've got to be having the right nutrients. Otherwise, you will be getting craving. So, um, I think, I don't know that that's the case, but I would say, you know, be eating plenty and regularly when you're trying to quit sugar, be eating plenty of good foods because you, you will get the cravings. Yeah. And two or three days, yeah, you're not through, you're not through the worst of it. probably I would say for someone like that to join a program, if you go to our website,

which is, the dash CHC org. Yeah. And, you know, think about signing up for a program because then you're, you know, you're getting expert advised,

you're getting support on the way through, you're talking to other people who are going through the same thing. It makes such a difference. If you can't do it on your own, definitely join a program. One thing we're not fully got into today, but you've touched on it a few times, and I just want to make sure we've sort of covered this for completion is this idea that sometimes your desire for sugar is a consequence of what you ate or didn't eat previously. So if you had a sugary cereal for breakfast, well, your blood sugar may have shot up, three hours later, it may start to crash down, and you then crave when it's crashing down. down. Yes. But actually, it may be that you don't have a sugar addiction problem. It may simply be

that actually that craving is a consequence of your blood sugar dropping. You've got a blood sugar problem. Yeah. And so if you were able to have a breakfast, as you said, with some eggs, for example, and some avocado, some, you know, a more protein-rich and healthy, fat-rich breakfast, you may find you don't have the craving. I know many patients over the years who've been in that situation. Definitely. If you're having enough... You know, you're just not as hungry and as craving, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And of course, for some people, these CGMs, which I briefly spoke to, you know,

these continuous glucose monitors can be a very useful tool. Maybe not, I don't mean long term necessarily, but, you know, a two-week trial. You can learn a massive amount. You can go, oh, wow. Actually, every time I'm craving sugar, it's because my blood glucose is dropping. Yeah. What if I changed what I ate and my blood sugar didn't. go have these highs and lows. For some people, their cravings vanish when they eat that way.

Yeah. So you learn a massive amount. And the other thing, it can be really good if you've kind of having a bit of a wobble and you want to reset. There's something about seeing it in real time on your phone and you're wanting to keep your lines. People like me anyway, you want to sort of, you want to keep the line flat. You just get that feedback immediately. And you see the kinds of foods that for you personally put up the blood sugar. So, yeah. a lot of people with sugar addiction problem do really well trying out a CGM. Jen, I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. I think you're doing, like your husband, together, you guys are doing such incredible work.

Final question is for that person who throughout this conversation has recognized that actually, you know what? They've realized that they have a problematic relationship with food, that they've never properly admitted to themselves. They're perhaps hidden it from the people around them. Of course, this conversation is full of advice and tips on that already. But for that person who thinks it's too late for them to change, what would you say to them? Oh, gosh, never too late. So we've had patients in their 60s and 70s come along and make huge leaps in their mental and physical else by, you know, by quitting the sugars and the ultraprosis.

Re replacing it with real whole nutrient-dense food. And then that, as we've said, given them the sort of energy and the focus to do other things in their lives. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you've studied the role of hope in healthcare. I think you've left people with a lot of hope at the end of this conversation. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

I hope so. Thank you very much. Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life. And also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else. Remember when you teach someone, it not only helps them. It also helps you learn and retain the information. Now before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday 5. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas.

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