Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - 5x Olympian Kerri Walsh Jennings on Pressure, Greatness, and Resilience

Episode Date: November 27, 2024

What does it take to cultivate a mindset that thrives on challenge and discomfort?... To have the courage to be radically honest with yourself to experience extraordinary growth?And how can having that courage lead to personal growth and winning multiple times on the world-stage?Today we’re joined by the legendary Kerri Walsh Jennings. Kerri is a five-time Olympian with three gold medals and one bronze medal – the most decorated beach volleyball player in history, known for her relentless pursuit of growth on and off the court. Kerri and I got to catch up in Paris during the Olympics – it was such a joy to reconnect, to learn from her, and to reminisce on some of the work we had done together years ago. There’s no one like her. Her fire, her care for others, her commitment to be her very best as a competitor, a wife, a mother, and a friend is all part of her recipe to becoming one of the all-time greats in her sport. Her unique mindset allows her to embrace challenges, redefine failure, and lean into the full spectrum of human experience.We all have adversity - she walks us through how she uses it for growth and sustained success. I’m so excited to share it with you._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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to be radically honest with yourself lead to the extraordinary growth and winning multiple times on the world stage. Welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training, a high-performance psychologist. Today, we are joined by the legendary Kerry Walsh Jennings. Kerry is a five-time Olympian with three golds and one bronze medal. The most decorated beach volleyball player in the history of the game, known for her relentless pursuit of both on and off the court growth.

Kerry and I got to catch up in Paris during the Olympics. It was such a joy to reconnect, to learn from her and to reminisce on some of the work that we had done together years ago. And there's no one else like her. Her fire, her care for others, her commitment to be her very best as a competitor, a wife, a mother, a friend. This is all part of her recipe that is part of the broth or the soup, if you will, to be flat out the best in the world at her sport. We all have adversity. And she walks us through how she uses it for growth and sustained success.

I am so excited to share this conversation with you. And just a quick note, if you found value in these conversations, I would love for you to take a moment and leave us a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening to this podcast. It's a no-cost way to help us reach more people and grow this incredible community. So with that, let's dive right into this conversation with the legend, hands down, the GOAT, Kerry Walsh Jennings. Kerry, we have so much rich history that it feels like it's an inherent challenge to sit down with you to really understand how you've become one of the best in the world. And so I want to start and just say, like, how do you introduce yourself to people?

I want to start in the most, you don't know somebody. And how do you introduce yourself? Hi, I'm Carrie. And I'm full of flaws nice to meet you is that what you say that's how i feel no but that's i think i'm just i'm carrie and that but that's how it feels inside like i've got a lot going on and i think okay i think there's two things in that question one i'm just carrie right i am carrie yeah um that's one thing um normal you know everyday joe and the other is for some, it's like I want to confess all my sins to make sure that people like me or accept me for more than just winning.

You know what I'm saying? I want them to see me more than just a winner, a gold medal winner, a bronze medal winner, a five-time Olympian. Yes. winner, a bronze medal winner, a five-time Olympian. And I also think there's probably something about, mark me if this is not right, but you've always been really tall. How tall are you? 6'2 and a bit. So when you were younger, you were always just a little bit taller than all of your friends. Is that fair? The reason I'm bringing all of this up is because at some point, there's two things that I think are really not talked about enough for tall and athletic people at a young age. One of them is at what point did adults treat you differently? Mark that for just a moment. But the second is when you're taller, that there is like people look at you a certain way. And when you're incredibly athletic, there's like this double contour to the way they look at you a certain way and when you're incredibly athletic they all there's like this double contour to the way they look at you they see you as an athlete and then they see you

as being maybe a little bit more responsible a little bit more mature you're treated older yeah so so what was it like growing up with your your height you know i don't think i ever noticed my height i never really paid attention to standing out. I was really, really a very shy kid, like painfully shy. And so I think I just, I don't think I wanted to be invisible. I just think I was a whisper growing up. And I don't think it was because I was afraid. I think it was just that the house I grew up in, the culture I grew up in was like, shut your mouth, don't complain, do your best, you know know and get the job done was that out of like

gratitude like shut your mouth don't complain because be grateful for what you have or was it like children should be seen and not heard or was it like look get the job done go i don't want to hear it go get it done i think it was a mentality it's like my dad said no one wants to hear your complaints like you know if you ever get pulled over from a cop don't talk a lot and give no excuses you know it's just a mentality yeah i think it's the way my parents are raised my mom was one of eight you know that's a loud house and everyone had responsibilities and um you didn't want to be the squeaky wheel you know and i think my dad was one of four as well and it's just like get your shit done you know um and so i think that kind of transferred to where I was raised, you know?

How did that help you be one of the best to ever play the game? I didn't indulge in complaining, you know? And I think the high expectation of Carrie, Carrie can do it and she will do it. She'll show up and she'll work her ass off. Wait, there's two things in that. Carrie will do it and she'll work her ass off. wait there's two things in that carrie will do it and she'll work her ass off so the do it is when i heard that was like get it done yes like carrie will she's capable she'll finish she'll be a finisher on the court yes so was that about

outcome or are they both about like the work hard piece the way well the work hard was most important i think fundamentally but i think the way the child carry maybe translated that in my brain was, if you don't win, you're a loser. I felt like that. I felt less than. You know what I felt? My parents had and still have very high expectations of me and all of my siblings and my family, even my children. I think that's one of the greatest gifts they gave me because I think you grow into that. And they never felt sorry for me. They never allowed me to feel sorry for myself. I couldn't complain. So I didn't complain. And I just went to work. And if I had insecurities, or if I felt short, or if I lost and I felt like a loser, which happened every time I lost,

I would just get to work. When I was younger, you remember they had the presidential fitness class, right? Yes, yeah. If I didn't get all blue ribbons, I was devastated. And I thought my parents wouldn't love me as much. So obviously, we know better now in the way that we parent. I don't think that you're a parent who holds conditions over your three darlings. Yeah. Your three.

Can I just say, I don't think my parents were conditional. I think I interpreted it. That's where I was going. Yeah. So this was not so much about them. It was more about like the way that you, and so there was some sort of message that you had to be great, that you had to win.

Yeah. And whether that was accurately filtered or kind of misguided in the filtering. So what do you think it was? Do you think it was the world around you had this thing that because of whatever like you've got to win and if you don't you're a loser or was this something that you kind of made up i think i made it up i i grew up in a very competitive environment like if you know my parents individually um they're gnarly athletes and their family. It was all about being an athlete and being, you know, a competitor and like winning a lot.

And growing up, my childhood was every single week and a couple times a week I'd go and watch my parents compete. Whether it was bowling or like really high level softball, like they were winning. And I witnessed them compete and it was so intense, like fist fights and like infighting in the team because if they just won and losing wasn't acceptable. And it was so cool to see Doc because it was an invitation to be great and to care and to just let it just fucking fight for stuff

that was meaningful, even if it's called softball. And so when even I was in fifth grade, sixth grade playing basketball and soccer and volleyball, I felt that pressure to live how my parents lived. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn sales solutions. In any high performing environment that I've been part of from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people.

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but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David D-A-V-I-D protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. So this, I'm trying to get under the surface a little bit about for the parent who's listening, what are some takeaways that they can learn from you? And then like some of the things that were really great. And then the second piece is like things that you have converted for the modern child. Yeah. That is uniquely yours as well. You know, I think it's such a hard question

because I don't think there's any one way, and I really appreciated the way my parents raised me and my children. And I think I have a complex in me. I don't want to insult them when I say. I'm glad you bring that up because both my parents are alive, both your parents are alive. And I never want to say a crossword. Or like, I want to take the best.

Well, because they're doing their best. They did their best. Like, we're parents now. And I don't know what the hell I'm doing. But I know I love my children. I think most people don't know what they're doing. Right. In life.

Like, I don't know. So that allows me to give grace to my parents. There you go. Right? And I don't even think they deserve it. It's like they were doing their best. Do you do that same grace for yourself? I'm working on it.

I'm really working on it. When we first met, when was that? 2009. I don't think you had that type of grace. It was a razor's edge. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you just paused.

Well, I'm just trying to think there's there's just so like my brain there's so much and there's so much history between you and i and there's just so much context to all this you know um and so for me in my story it's like and my fundamental belief in life is that everything has served me everything was on purpose right and i feel? And I feel like before I came down to earth, my soul chose my parents and chose my situations. I fundamentally believe that this is all on purpose. Not predestined, but my soul wanted to grow in certain ways. And so I chose the parents I chose

who had the framework they worked from, the mindset, my siblings, my whole situation is here to develop myself. And so when i reflect on my history whether it's as a child or as an adult it's like fuck it was all on purpose it was all there to get me to this point you know that i'm still working through so is god an active god or passive god uh he's a co-creator so active active um not destined meaning that um not predestined predestined you and i were supposed to be here together it's not that i i believe i'm on a journey that's unfolding

okay and you're clearly my soul called in you at a time where i needed you like literally like you're an angel that came down and helped me in one of the biggest times in me in my life in 2009 right and that's how you. And volleyball and everything. I lived before 2009. You know, we're leading me to this point. And I was I wasn't ready to ask for help earlier on. You know, and that's maybe that's something I picked up as a child.

Like I literally thought for most of my life, like asking for help was a sign of weakness. And that's something that little Carrie picked up, you know, in the environment I was in. I didn't want to be the squeaky wheel. You know, when I was six and a half, I had a little brother who died. And I don't remember much of my childhood, but I know that changes everybody involved, you know? And so I can only imagine what my parents went through. And then parenting, you know, the three other children that they have and all these things, you know? So it's just, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know when I found my voice. I don't know why I was so quiet. I don't know um yeah I don't know when I found my voice I don't know

why I was so quiet I don't know why I framed things the way I did I just I know it all makes sense in the unfolding yeah I think it's really important to just honor 2000 so two things before we do 2009 is that you you've grown a lot you, I've been able to witness it. And I also want the listener to know that the last time you and I have done work was like years. Too long ago, clearly. Right.

But that's really important just from like an ethical, like this isn't like, Carrie Walsh Jennings coming on and we just did a session last week. Like it's been years since we did real work. You know, and then it turned into like this high regard and high respect and this feels so natural to have this conversation because to celebrate everything that you've done and who you are

and also if we can put the light on the shadow side because that's where we get to really learn but i just want the listener to know that there's no like like, it's really a safe environment to be able to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Have this conversation. you know, this has been a long time coming and I'm so honored to be here.

And it's just, I, you know, I listened to your very first episode and I've been along for the ride. It's been fun to watch you grow, you know, and I, I listened to your podcast and I put myself in your guests.

Like this position. And I'm like, fuck, I don't want that. Like, it's so intense to me. And, and you do such a good job of getting the gems out of people through their story. Like, I feel like I'm like fuck i don't want that like it's so intense to me and yeah and you do

such a good job of getting the gems out of people through their story like i feel like i'm like self-editing right now like here you say something meaningful you know and it's like fuck and this that actually is meaningful when people are telling the truth it happens yeah i bet i bet um but you know i get in my own way so um anyhow it's been i just know how to be my goal in life that you taught me is just to be in the moment and let it rip. Like you've helped me do so much personal work and I've dropped so much baggage and so much weight because of the work we've done together. And it's such a gift. And it's hard to speak to. Yeah, it is.

I know this, like when I do the work is that like a friend or a loved one will say, so how was the session that you just did? And it's like, I don't know. Like so much just happened. Even if like not a lot was actually said, so much happens that it's nearly impossible to try to convey it. So all that being said is what is the work? Well, that's my question for you too.

It's like, how would you label it? Because to me, if you label it, you limit it. And to me, there's- Wait, what does that mean? If you label it- I mean, if you label it, you put in question for you too. It's like, how would you label it? Because to me, if you label it, you limit it. And to me, there's... Wait, what does that mean? If you label it... I mean, if you label it, you put it in this sweet little box. Like, that's the work. And this is A, B, and C.

And that's not how it fucking goes. Like, you and I have never been linear. Like, even this conversation, right? It's like all over the place because that's the way the heart and the mind works. And I think there needs to be freedom for that. And I think for myself personally, I think I judge myself because I'm not linear and I feel scattered. But I do want to be buttoned up to a certain extent. It's interesting because it's probably where sport really helps you is that track the ball.

Yes. Totally. There's one job on serve-receive, if you will. And then rep it out. I'm a reps girl. I need a lot of reps. Yeah. And because then it becomes intuitive.. Right. I'm a reps girl. I need a lot of reps. Yeah. Yeah.

And because then it becomes intuitive, you know, and so you don't have to think anymore. It becomes automatic, but you're, you're, you work laterally when you think, so you'll work more like a tapestry.

Yeah. Well, it's like that over there. And then this idea it's, it's related. Yeah. And it's not like an engineer's mind, which is like, keep going until i

can fly find the flaw and the logic or the break in the in the argument yeah you're not you know and nothing about me is literal even when i think i'm being literal oh that's funny yeah it's super abstract i think it's good it's good but self-awareness is really important but you you snuck in there that I critique and judge myself. Yeah. What does that look like or sound like for you? Well, like real time, I'm like, what the heck are you saying? He's asking great things and you're in this with them.

But what are you saying? Where are you going? You know, and I think that's just fear of not doing it right. What do you want to say to people if there was like one thing that you hope that somebody would leave from this conversation or a conversation that you have with them or a long-term relationship you have with them what i want someone to say after they listen to this conversation yeah she can do it i can fucking do it that's so good right Right? It's like, yeah. Well, so we said that, hi, I'm Carrie. I have flaws. It's so weak.

Can I just stop you? Because it all sounds weak. Everything coming out of my mouth sounds weak. And I don't like it. Because my experience is it sounds free. Does it? Yeah. Time out.

Okay, I'm so glad you said that. Because part of me is like, maybe I want to confess my sins early on because it gives me some cover. Do you think that's part of it? Well, that's why I went to your height and then this people looking at you at a different way at a young age. And I didn't get to the second question is when did adults start treating you differently because of your talent? Yeah. And what ends up happening when you're tall and athletic and there's a lot of success happening and adults are treating you differently,

there's this wonderful and sometimes overwhelming spotlight that happens for our kids. And then because of that, there's these, and then your family had this, you used the word expectations, there's this thing that I have to be

a certain way to be okay. Yeah. And I see you when you say hi I'm carrying flaws saying look I'm done with holding on to that way of living I want to be free yeah and I recognize that too like when I like do seriously no I seriously like I don't want to be seen as if I don't have flaws and make mistakes. Or that you have all the answers. Like, it's impossible. So fair.

All I have is questions. Well, what again? That's really, I think we all have a lot of questions. Yeah. And I guess what I also get in return is people who trust me to ask questions. Well, the lack of judgment that you've shown me over the last- Lack of judgment?

I have lack of judgment? Oh, continue judgment. Sorry, judging me in my story or my your judgment is great you're very discerning yes um no you've shown me so much and this is a very safe space for sure safer than in my own head yeah you know and i think the beautiful thing about you is that i get to speak out loud and be like okay that felt weak like i don't like to say stupid shit like that but i so i don't think it's about me. I think it's about the work. That part is the work is that there's a, there is when I, when I stop editing myself or I'm more aware of the editing that I have going

on, I feel more free. That's the work. Yeah. I'll persevere through those hard moments. You've had a lot. Yeah. You've done a lot. Yeah. It's, it's been awesome. You know, and part of me, I want to go back to what you said about when kids grow early and how they're treated differently. By adults. By adults.

Yeah. It hurts my heart when I see a 10-year-old kid who looks like he's 15 and people treat him that way. That's right. It's so wrong to me. Because you know that. I don't know. I don't remember that at all.

Because I always didn't feel tall enough, to be honest. You know, like I wanted to be more. But my dad, you know, I talked to my dad a while ago. And I had two questions like, Dad, I was like, well, did I always work real hard? Did I always like always do go the extra mile? And he's like, he laughed at me. He's like, absolutely not. He's like, that maybe showed up maybe your junior year in high school. Because I have a 14 year old, 15 year old, and they just, you know, you know they're they're they're kind of munched a lot about it but they want to be great and in my head i was like i was great i was always but like it was so great he laughed at me because i'm like good now i can give my kids more space to be kids which i want them to be kids you know

and then something else we're talking about you know kids who grow early develop early and he's like babe i'm so happy you grew later because the moment you were taller and just noticeably excellent they rode you and your shoulder almost fell off and they just keep coaches and over specialization no they can't help but lean on you and it's like a pitcher having a pitch count you have no pitch count carry yeah when you're excellent when you're when you can handle the load they think yeah then you know that goes out the window and so he's like i'm glad that you grew late not that i wasn't i was good pretty early i should promise early but i think the bigger i got the more i took up space like and i wanted it like i wanted that responsibility but anyhow i think me growing late did a couple things for me i think it um made me focus on the fundamentals, which if you're tall early, you can be sloppy.

You get away with it. You get away with it. Which is terrible. It's a disservice. That's terrible. Coaches need to know that. Yes. Right?

And my family was very big on fundamentals if you want to be the best. So wait. You just slipped it in that coaches should know that, meaning, or coaches need to know that, meaning that if you've got a tall athlete like hammer the fundamentals oh my god yeah don't let don't let height get in the way of like fundamental yes because you're doing them a disservice yeah it's super simple and it's it's super simple like yes and i i think they feel pressure to make them like excellent in the like casey always says do the abcs my husband right yeah he says if you can kick ass in the abcs, which in my sport, it's like footwork and

ball control, passing, setting, like the basics of the craft. If you can just be consistent in all those things, then you can, you deserve, earn the right to live in the XYZ space. But kids these days are just starting from the three-point line. They're not even doing layups anymore. You know, like they're starting, like trying to dunk. My son Joey is trying to dunk and it's just like, babe just like babe like let's just you don't get your form down so but i think the pressure is you know to kind of create a pro athlete when they're 10 and that's it's nonsense

it's not fair so what have you converted from the the lessons that you learned early on and now converted to be to have a an approach for your kids let me preface it this way, is that my parents made plenty of mistakes. I'm going to make plenty of mistakes. I'm just principle-based. I'm just going to try not to make the same mistakes. I want them to be net new. I want them to make new mistakes. Yeah, so what are you shifting or changing?

I am trying to be more in control of myself. So I don't have explosive reactions. I feel like there's a lot of explosive reactions and like frustrations that my parents had because they worked so hard and had four kids and living their life. Like I feel like we were shut down a lot, you know, and I don't want that because I don't want the last thing my kids hear at

night is go to after bed, you know, or, or just, or if I spill something, I spill something you idiot you know and I that's what that happened and that's okay like it's just life but those things really hurt me you know I think in hindsight they really hurt me and they kept me like I'm afraid to make a mistake you know even the littlest human thing do you think that helps you be great yes the fear of making a mistake the anxiety of whatever i played in failure i was so afraid of failure i didn't play in failure play i was so afraid of failure for a majority of my life even my pro life for sure um and it made me really really good and then after we lost in rio to skip way forward, that didn't serve me. It just minimized me.

It made me so weak. You said lost in Rio. That's an interesting framing by taking a bronze medal. Well, you know what I'm talking about. We won the bronze. It's like a huge moment, huge victory. But we lost to get that. If people knew what I knew about what it takes to do what

you've done, I don't think they'd be pushing their kids at all. It's really hard. It is. Yes. Go ahead. No, go. No, no, no. The washout is radical. The tension, the chronic tension to be on the edge of like being your very best is very hard. And that the anxiety you're talking about, that like self-critique is a very normal mix. But most people don't get the winning that you got. Yeah. And so then the washout is like, what do you have? You've got like, I'm not good enough.

I'm really anxious. I'm really critical of myself. And I don't feel good about me. And I didn't get the, that's 90, what, four, 7% of the world? A lot. Yeah. If we, if I didn't win as much, I don't know if I would have endured to be honest. That's one thing. But the other thing is that I love the feeling of improvement so much. And I love the pursuit. That's a counterbalance. That's really interesting. Yes. It. Because it was just like, oh, there's more in me.

And I just, my potential drives me crazy in a very powerful way. Speak no word of that. It's just, it provokes me, you know? And it's just like, I know I'm inherently, I have so many tools to work with

and you helped me recognize so many more tools, like intangible tools, you know, that to work with. But I've been blessed with so much and it's like, I believe I can do these things. And I feel like if there's like this sense of belief

and then like love for what I'm doing or curiosity, I can suffer. I'm willing to suffer mentally, emotionally, physically, you know, because I believe in where I can go. Do you use your imagination to see what next year could look like? No, I'm after a feeling. What does that mean? I'm chasing a feeling of competency,

of confidence in the moment, of fluidity, of, oh, that felt good. Yeah. And when I work with Marcio, who you're working with, with the team candidates, sorry, this is all over the place.

Yeah. But he's like, that's what good looks like. Like I would have a pass and he'd be like, Carrie, that's what good looks like. And I asked him to reinforce the good, right? And he would say that, I'm like, but Marcio pass and be good carry that's what good looks like and i asked him to reinforce the good right and he would say that i'm like but marcia didn't feel good so it looks good but didn't feel good and i'm after the feeling of good you know yeah probably both you know yeah right you think they'd be hand in hand though but not always sometimes it's mechanical and

you're thinking and it did and so it gets in the way of the flow state it came out of um dr mihi tricks at me holly interviewing a bunch of people about asking what was it like when you're at your best and it kept coming back like there's this fluid nature so he just coined the term flow state it's so good yeah and so that's what you're describing right it's just like yeah it's not like digital there's like an analog sweeping kind of motion about it. It's not like click, click, click, click. Well, to me, I say that when I feel like I'm dancing on the court, it feels like I'm in flow state.

Because it's so, it's just, oh, the ball rose. Who cares? Here I am. And it fell and there I am. And I shanked it. It's okay. Let me fix it. You know, that kind of mentality and then that kind of physicality that comes with that.

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gotta be great, gotta win, like a fear of whatever, like that intensity, razor's edge sharpness with what you just did, which is like a, there's a contour to being rounded and smooth and flowy. How do you do that? attention at all times in training and in every game and in every game yeah it's just like uh you know and i and i'm but i'm not i'm not consciously being like like this is so stressful this is so pressure i can't fail it's like i'm here like i'm gonna i'm gonna compete and i have so much fun competing and just this one play is so fun you know and i'm i'm hitting left front now like i get to pass and i get to go hit if the ball comes to me. And it's just kind of cracking the egg in the moment. All of that was so fun. Is that how you see it? I think that's how I lived it.

Is that more of a puzzle that you're trying to solve or more tapestry that you're weaving? Super artistic words that I'm choosing. It's super intuitive. If I'm thinking I'm in trouble. So I think it's more artsy than it is I'm not a strategic person at all so how do you how do you turn the critic down to get to the intuitive flow responder up for so long like if I made like I'm just playing I love playing right and I think if

I made a mistake be a fucking carry ah and then i'd reset you know and these they it was all very quick and not like you suck you're the worst in the world it's like ah that's tough here we go i think it's important that you say that because um there's this notion that you have to always be positive i don't i don't agree with that at all yeah i need a lightning rod sure i need a way to let go yeah Yeah. And sometimes it's like a slap. It's like I have to say the same things to myself. It's something. And then after that lightning rod moment, that'll come back around and be like, all right, put it together now.

Yeah. Track the ball or whatever. Then fuck that becomes a reset. That becomes the reset. That's the triggering of the reset. I think so. Some people don't though. They fuck that and then they just stay there.

And it's like a toilet bowl. Yeah, we all. But if you were, but I, you know, it's such a full conversation because it's just like, all of this is so personal and it's so in the moment, you know? And so my experience is so different than your experience. And what I did after play A is probably different

than play B because it's just whatever, I'm in the moment, whatever momentum is carrying me. This is really important. It's so personal. So, and you're looking for the feeling of what the feeling of uh i mean to me like so i'm a volleyball player right i'm talking volleyball right now so the feeling of being able to handle what's in front of me, like, well, to meet the moment, I guess so. Yeah. Which is a physical execution.

That's right. Yes. Well, there's a harmony. You can't separate physical and mental. No. Like, we like the thing that you can. That's what we see. Yeah.

But, like, so it's a full togetherness to meet whatever the moment is giving you. And are you trying to execute or be artistic? I'm trying to do whatever it takes. Whatever it takes takes whatever it takes to get the ball done yeah all down what's it like to be here 20 years since you've won your first medal it's pretty rad it's really incredible it makes me emotional think about because what a ride you know and i'm so excited for all the athletes who are going to compete i saw a friend today who's been I've been friends since 2003 and she's like is this so hard for you is this just eating at you you're not playing I'm like no like no like I when I retired I was like god can you please just make it clear

that I'm done and the way everything's unfolded it's very clear you know if there was like this much oh you can do it carry I'd be holding on to it but it's it's very clear. If there was like this much, oh, you can do it, Carrie, I'd be holding on to it, but it's very clear. So to be here and now to be able to celebrate the games and to feel compassion for all the athletes and what they're going through, like every stage is so fun. Like the late, we're what? Right before the opening ceremonies.

Like I remember that excitement. It's a kid in a candy store. Like all is possible and everything's perfect right now. And then the next stage is, oh shit, here we go. You is possible and everything's perfect right now you know and and then the next stage is oh shit here we go you know and it's just really fun to kind of relive those emotions and it makes me really grateful to have lived it you know when you think back to the full career that you've had do you have highlights that stick out to you that are like really special even ones that maybe maybe the world watched or not like what are the

ones that that come up even in this conversation it's not like you pegged them like my number one memory is or my number three member like what comes up when i say things that were special it's just the whole thing like all of it even the stuff that makes me want to cry even the stuff where my heart was broken i felt betrayed like i on the world stage, like all of it is so meaningful to me, you know, like truly. So the fullness. The fullness of it. Yeah. Because it's just, it's incomplete if I were just to pick the moments,

you know, I mean, there's moments on the road where it was just Misty and I and. Misty May. Misty May Traynor. Who is just, you know, one of my heroes and my partner forever. And it was just her and I being silly girls and best moment ever. And I can say that just throughout my whole career,

there were just life moments shared with important people that trumped all of the winning and all that. That being said, I love training. I loved working out so hard. I loved all the people that I put around me that I was blessed to have around me, whether it was my trainers or you or Misty or Casey, my husband. I was surrounded by, and currently still am, amazing humans who helped me to become. So the becoming of all of it outweighs those moments that supposedly stand out more. You sound like a philosopher now. I'm on a mission to become, Doc. And it's exhausting because there's a lot of insecurity. not supposedly stat.org. You sound like a philosopher now. Like coming, like yes.

I'm on a mission to become doc. And it's exhausting because there's a lot of insecurity. That you've become? That I'm just, I am right here, right now. And there's so much more potential, which is so great. But there's a quote that I love.

It's like, be happy with where you, satisfied with now, eager for more. I love that. You know, and like to me, like winning is being satisfied with the job that you did. You know, whether you're satisfied with the preparation or you lived the journey well or you won, there's lots of different ways to win.

But feeling satisfied when you're done, that's what I'm aiming for in life. Definitely John Wooden's definition of winning. When your head hits the pillow at night, you do it this way. But when your head hits the pillow at night you did you really give it your all yeah and that that would be his one of the great coaches ever like and so you're saying you're you're saying the same thing yeah a hundred percent yeah yeah and if you were to take that day by day i failed on most of the days you know like i i don't think i i went to bed fully satisfied very often however you put the days together it's like oh you did good kid so you

know what why would you say you failed more often than not well just because it's you know it's like i'm an imperfect human and you know i i want to live my journey very very well and and be connected in every moment and i f up all the time you know right that type of thing so if it's not perfect what is what is good enough to live a good life? Something that feels okay. I just want to feel good about it. Even when I mess up, if I'm an asshole to my husband and I had a great day on the court and I come home and I'm a jerk to my husband because I'm sensitive to something he says and I could have handled that better, it's like, ah. My personal philosophy, which I've shared with you, is every day is an opportunity

to create a living masterpiece. When I say, what is a living masterpiece to you? How do you start to think about it? The first thing that came to mind is it's all love. And I think those brushstrokes have to happen in the moment. You know, it's again, there's nothing strategic about it. You know, I think people might say a masterpiece, you have to know every stroke and know the structure and know where you're going, but I think it just comes in living in it. I think part of a living masterpiece is fully loving and embracing the unfolding, unpredictable unknown, and then being able to work with that and not be so flooded by the anxiety of not knowing and the anxiety that it needs to be just right. But work with that in a way that allows you to express net new,

not repeat what you've done, but express net new. And then that's so like, for me, energizing. And for me, it doesn't require a still canvas. Some people will have a still canvas and paint and colors, and that's amazing. Mine is with people. So, yeah. So then there's this other dynamic

where it's like, I don't know what the other person's going to say or do or respond. And that, for me, is a forcing function to be really present. Totally. Yeah.

So, yeah. Yeah, well, it's so cool. There's all these mechanisms that I think we set up in our lives, maybe pursuing your greatness and your craft. craft like people are involved in that and that makes your experience so much more dynamic and your perspective so much more dynamic that you wouldn't have in any other craft yeah and for me my sport has been the mechanism to my personal growth which i just want to keep developing you know and take volleyball away obviously i would

have to find something else to sharpen myself with. Now I think that I'm retired. I've had one North Star for my whole life, and that North Star has shifted, and I don't have a new one yet. So when people say, you know, what's your craft now? What's your North Star? It's like becoming the best me I can be. What the fuck is that me?

And what's the mechanism that I use to get the best out of myself? Yeah, and I don't want to miss that like mastery of self and mastery of craft are related and separate and what i just heard you say is that i'm i use my craft to really work on mastering of self mastery of self through mastery of craft so the craft is like it just happens to be the tool yeah and so but you're also saying like i'm not sure what it is right now no i don't know what it is yeah and i don't want to regurgitate and i don't want to feel like it has been and there's all like if i'm at like ground zero tabula rasa you know it's like it's all i have this beautiful fresh canvas in

front of me and part of me why i like that's because the fuck i can do anything you know in the unknown like there's limitless possibilities but then i'm like i don't know how to do that and i have all these tools that i that i've earned and that i have and i just have this realization i get to bring those with me so which one yeah which ones transport all of them well not hitting a ball at whatever calls an hour. No, but the dedication and determination. Okay, dedication does. Yes. Okay. Do you use dedication and commitment?

Both. Do you use dedication? More devotion. Devotion? No, commitment to me is more powerful than dedication. Well, I don't know. They all have a little bit different energy. They do.

Yeah. And they mean something technically. As a scientist, they're different. Sure. Well, I wouldn't know those subtleties well commitment you can have short-term and long-term commitment yeah and dedication is really something over the long haul okay to me there's a quote that i love it says the decision is the most important part of the journey if i've decided i'm committed i'm devoted i'm dedicated i'm. So you use both of those committed and dedicated in a way. So I think you're probably using commitment like it's a short term. Like

let me give an example. When my son is crying, when he's 18 months old, or whatever, nine months old, I am not motivated to get out of bed at 230 or whatever it is in the morning. But I'm committed to be a great dad or a great partner to my wife. And so that's like commitment, I think, is such a strong way to go through life. And it feels like it, I don't know, it just gets kind of morphed a little bit. But dedication and commitment for you are big. What else? They are. What translates?

Well, and just it's like a new choice every single day to like honor that commitment. So a fundamental choice is what you're talking about or small micro choices? Well, following through on your fundamental choice, whatever decision you've made. And how do you do that? How do you decide what the bigger fundamental choices? Well, I think knowing what my priorities are, knowing what I want to accomplish. That's like the structuring mechanism okay right and then i mean my whole life was structured because i wanted to become

the best i can be in volleyball right and that was beautiful because it gave me this structure and i work really well when i'm very disciplined you know and then i there's a sense of freedom that comes because i do it every day i'm committed every single day in body, mind, and spirit. Do you think you're better at trusting trust of self or trust of others? You could be high on both. Good question. Or you could be low on both. I believe in people. You do? Very much. I don't know if that's the same thing

as trust. Probably pretty close. You believe that people are going to do the right thing? I do. I believe in people. I'm fundamentally a trusting human. High high trust high trust of self or others i think what it comes down to and i trust myself very much um you know i feel like that inner critic in me is very shallow and it like nothing goes to my soul and hurts me when i'm critical but super interesting i have lived death by a thousand paper cuts by, by a million carry. Come on.

You know, and just like all these little slights that I allow or, um, which I really want to get out of. Is trust earned or built? I want to say built. Um, cause I give,

I give everyone my trust. Like I'm like, I see the world and people as like, I'm, I'm you were the same. I trust people like deeply inherently. And when they knock me on my ass, when they're there.

So if we all lived in your world, we wouldn't lock doors. Yeah. Because yeah. Don't go to places that are yours. That's not yours. Don't touch it. Yeah.

And then when people are human, then you got to build that trust. Yeah. Okay. So trust is you did both. Like I give trust. You give trust. It has to be trust ask me more so is is trust given or is trust earned fuck maybe i maybe i asked i don't even know now but like what do

you think well maybe here's what we'll try okay is it earned given or earned i feel like i have to earn it for yourself or for other people in general um what do i do with other people i just trust a lot of people so yeah i think i think you give it yeah yeah for sure yeah and i do yeah yeah i was gonna say i do trust myself but i just i'm just hard on myself or i don't i don't know what i am with myself it's so lame but i i would do you trust you i would choose to pick me on a team in a lineup i if i would choose my own team or in life basketball painting all of it i'm a fucking fighter i'm a competitor mother and i love it yes that is a really cool frame like would you pick yourself right that's how high trust yes that's like you so you back yourself you know you might kind of know oh you know you might kind of like pick

it yourself or whatever every day but but but you back you back yourself like i'm gonna bring it yes very cool yeah and i'm willing to put myself out there to to f up because i know i'll grow into it you know and i think that's a really beautiful thing about high performers because you have to have that courage to put yourself out there, to look like a freaking idiot. Because every time you like level up, I feel like an idiot again. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth.

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of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is Finding Mastery for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using

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I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash findingmastery and use the code findingmastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. So this is really important is that the amount of vulnerability and risk-taking in practice and publicly sometimes is more than what most people would ever get a real dose at like to really put yourself if you want to get better at something you've got to put yourself in a situation where you don't know how to do it and sometimes that's public you mentioned earlier the team so there's the team that supports you how do you go about one you could like every discipline is different like there's like i don't know most

people are not going to have an atc or like a medical trainer or a physical therapist or strength and conditioning or sports like so how do you go about picking the people that you want to work with or that you want part of your team you know i feel like a handful of them just fell in my lap and i was blessed and it was a fit. And like my trainer, Tommy Knox, who I don't believe in having heroes, but if I had one, it would be him. I mean, Casey and I worked with him for 20 years. For 20 years, I drove, you know, three hours almost every Tuesday, Thursday to be with him, you know, hour plus down, hour plus back,

just to train with him because he lives it. He's like the embodiment of you can do it you're like no regression you're always getting better there's new ways to attack it like and i work for him like he's oh he lives he lives that oh fuck yeah and that that's like my mission in life doc is to live the embodiment of whatever highest self favorite self i believe is in me like i want to live that you know that's really important to me um and i feel like i i'm a fraud a lot you know um but but anyhow i had tommy i mean you are one of those people like you just fit like i had people who i thought was a fit wrote out with a couple years and it wasn't a fit well we were introduced by somebody that we

trust yeah yeah yeah yeah when someone i love and trust and the person introduced us as someone who i know will not lie to me um she when someone i love and trust says go try this person out i'm gonna be like yes okay you know my favorite thing to find amazing people is like through word of mouth you know and this person um she was like carrie went to her volleyball and he helped me in my life and i was like my life is falling apart so in comes an answer to a prayer

right so yes okay we can do a little bit deeper concentration and pre-performance routines and pre-server teams

and how do you let go of a mistake and goal setting and imagery you can do all that stuff breathing which is so helpful all good

all good for all that work for life if you know how to translate it right and you don't just stay in a box sure like i used i use imagery for sport what how do i use my imagination for life you know in crosswalks people don't do that i think it's sometimes we just put everything in a box okay and then when yeah kicks that box like you can't play in that sandbox anymore. That it feels like all those 25 years of investing in tools are like gone out the window.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's heavy. Yeah. But athletes know how to take risks better, be coached better than most, be on time better than most, you know, be great teammates to each other. Like there's a lot. There's a lot of narcissism in sport.

There's a lot of OCD and anxiety. Yeah. Like what's your favorite type of athlete to work athlete to work with honest ones okay honest okay and then like not sport it's just like how do you make the commitment to get to the truth how do you know if a person like i believe the quote like people can only meet you at the depth of their ad that's right like so my one of my biggest fears is i'm full of shit like all the time i is that I'm full of shit. Like, all the time I'm like, oh, I'm full of shit. Like, literally, am I just saying this because I've said it for 20 years, but it's not true now? Another way of looking at it is that you're calibrating yourself.

Like, constantly calibrating. Like, what is being your best? It's like these tiny little micro choices. So nuanced. It's not as simple as did I choose the apple or the apple pie? It's so personal to use your word early, which I love. And at the same time, it's these tiny little micro choices. So how do I know?

Well, I'm just listening. Well, you keep digging. Well, I'll just keep. Oh, that's interesting. Wait, what's your favorite question? I don't know what I mean. I don't know. Get up. I barely know. oh, that's interesting. Wait, wait, wait. My favorite question. I don't know what I mean. I don't know. Get up.

I barely know. Well, whatever. When you were just talking, it just made me think of, like, I've studied a lot of the greats, right? Ali and Jordan and Kobe and Misty. Like, I've studied so many of them. And when you hear Jordan. It's so awesome that you put Misty in there. Oh, she's so rad.

You're a parker. I know. She's so rad. Well, she is my first cheeros. Got her autograph when I was 13 or 14. Oh, you did? Oh, 100%. She's a year older than me, and she was like it for me.

What is the good life? When you think about the good life, how do you think about it? You've won it all now. Well, where's like playful come to mind? Yeah. Like the combination of playful seriousness, which is like a Bruce Lee thing, like that to me is like a the combination of playful seriousness it was like a bruce lee thing like that to me is like a perfect combination yeah you know and and i wish i was more playful in my life

do you know this year is for me what the year of play shut your mouth yeah how are you doing with it so i want to be more like a panda so i there's no predators that like they just they're just like they're just going with life and how it goes i do feel like i'm not threatened in most of most of my experiences like i'm trying not to come from like a threat perspective but more like approaching openness and whatever so and that's new uh is it new i know how to work really hard and be intense and And that comes from more of a not knowing if I'm good enough. So that's where my early stuff came from. And then so it served me well in some ways,

but I had to figure out how to put down that hatchet, you know? And so I feel like this year I've done it. Last year was the year of play. This year is the year of play again. So I needed a repeat. I got it, yeah. I've done it. Last year was the year of play. This year is the year of play again. So I needed a repeat. I needed a redo. Habits are hard. Yeah, I think that they are.

So I don't know. And when you like your work, it's just, you know. Yeah, it's a little different. Like with you, you know, here at the games, like, I mean, it's got a different, this feels comfortable and whatever. Yeah. So it's a good bark for, um,

for playfulness. One of your, wasn't your earlier podcast interviews, but Tono Wolf. Oh, um, Mercedes. Yeah.

So he said something kind of akin to, I was always suspicious of my success. Like there was something where his success, it didn't, it didn't sit well in him. And I was like, fuck, that's exactly how I feel. And he put it like, please look that up. Cause that quote is powerful. And I was like, fuck, that's exactly how I feel.

And he put it like, please look that up because that quote is powerful. I hate that I don't remember. But it's just the journey. It's so crazy. Like the best of the best of the best. And you think they have nothing and you have done everything like the highest level.

It's so cool to know it's a journey. I love that so much. And the way I look at potential now, because now that I have a mom, because every time my kids F up or they fail, like game winning shot or, you know, whenever something is in the line and they don't do it, I'm like, oh baby, this is going to make you so good.

If you let it. Like that was a repetition that's so valuable. You know, now let's work on it. And I wish I had that self-talk when I was competing, but I have it now. And now as I go into this next, you know, stage of my life, like now where I feel weak, I'm like, but I have it now. And now I go, as I go into this next stage of my life, like now where I, where I feel weak, I'm like, okay, that's potential. And if I want it, I will develop it. You know, it makes me a better parent. So you're doing two things. You're holding

the, the idea of what they could be like in a, in a sacred way. And then what you're doing is you're reframing in an optimistic lens like this is going to be great i know it stings right now and this is going to be so important for you feel it or like we'll do this together or whatever so you're framing you're using optimism but you're holding their potential as something um aspirational and wonderful to to pursue rather than because potential can go both ways. Yeah. You had all the potential. You're blowing it.

You have all the potential. You have all the tools, you know, but that you'll never understand your potential. No. As opposed to like, look, your potential is like it's an it's an ever ending pursuit. Yeah. Keep going. Yes. I hope that I the latter expression you said i hope i

lead with that with my children forever yeah you know we our oldest joey is like a ninja he's he's incredible like whatever it is like the factor he has it and and i think he he projects he feels the pressure great and it's a big responsibility. Well, his dad's a professional. I don't know if it's that. Mom was like the best that played the game. Yeah. Her ups, yeah.

Spotlight or shadow? But Joey is Joey. Like, it's just he takes his own space. Like, people will go to games just to watch Joey. So he's really good. He's really good. And I think he's afraid of making a mistake. Or he feels like if he doesn't win or if he makes a mistake, that's not okay.

And he's so hard on himself. And that will make him great, but it will make him miserable. Well, fuck that. No. Well, and that's a big fear. I hope I didn't give that to him. And then my Sundance is so critical. But of course, we give what we have.

Yeah. Oh, you don't want to hear that? No, no, of course i can't like that yeah so i just don't want to make the same mistakes but all i know i have to do is give what i have if i'm anxious and intolerant and frustrated if the other day grayson says to me um i caught some cold and it was a chest cough or whatever and i was really that was really in kind of a funk. And the next day or two days later, he goes, hey, dad. Hey, dad. What's it like to be so moody?

Did it help the situation? It was so fun. That's so cute. Well, those moments of awareness that our kids give us are just so priceless. But my point is, what I was giving was frustration, intolerance, like nudity. And so, okay, three gold medals, one bronze. To win, to be the best in the world for that long is radical. And you guys, just for a listener who doesn't know, like, what was it?

One full year, two years, maybe, that you didn't even lose a game? I don't remember, but over a year, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. You lose a match. A match. Yeah. Your coach at the time, Marcio, who I'm fortunate to work with right now, we were walking and talking, and he says, he goes, Mike, what does this remind you of uh 21 12 21 9 21 14 and these are your

scores of your of your your games yeah you know like and now games are like yeah you know 21 19 and it's like okay yeah but you were literally and we were dominant oh dominant it was amazing yeah it was so cool with marcio because I did two Olympics with him, with Misty and then with April. And at some point he's like, Carrie, expect to win, but the games are not going to be 21-9 anymore. You've got to get uncomfortable with being in those moments where it's 20-20 more often.

And it was just totally, just as long as it takes. And, of course, I logically know that, but it was so cool for him to say that because then some place inside of me steeled myself for that like what it's 19 all like you can't get nervous because this is the way it is you know and i i really needed to hear that he does good with cut through the bs yeah i mean the art of coaching is so awesome like when you really understand somebody you know yeah and how did he help you frame and how did you and Casey and you yourself frame the hard times the the coming up short the

whether you won or lost or whatever like how did how did you guys frame those you're asking Marcio and Casey or just actually take your coaches and family out of it for a minute. Like, how do you reframe? It didn't happen that often. No, it didn't. It really didn't. And so, I mean, I think of one time where it happened. I mean, two times where it happened in a big way.

So Misty and I lost the world championships. We were at 14-11 in the third, and we lost in the finals. That was a big loss. And it led us, it helped us to win gold in the Olympics a year later. In London? Yes. Because we suffered that loss in the finals it was it was like a moment of reckoning you know we had to work through that and shit are we not the best anymore and like what do we want to do here and so that was a big part it served us you know and then the fast not a little calcium off yeah yeah like for sure like that

muscle of tension and like because you guys are so good for so long yeah okay the second one the second one was in rio you know when april and i when we lost this time i found a match and um it was crushing i mean absolutely crushing like identity crushing for me and you know i never sat down and really talked to april about it and i think i would love to because i don't I have no idea. I think I was so self-involved and just took the loss entirely that it was my fault that I never talked to her about it. And I don't think I was able to give her any compassion or love.

So this is, if you win this match, you go on to play the gold medal match. And you got served a lot. Is this what you're talking about? Yeah. And in an uncanny way, balls were coming off your arms. The fundamental thing in our sport, which is passing, was not happening. Oh, well, that's weird. Yeah.

Serve her again. I was sitting right next to Marcia. Oh, really? Yeah. So serve her again. Oh, that's weird. Serve her again. I felt like I had a hex on me. Who misses? Carrie doesn't miss three in a row. Serve her again. Oh, that's weird. Serve her again. I felt like I had a hex on me.

Who missed? The fuck is happening? Carrie doesn't miss three in a row. Serve her again. Yeah. It was shitty. How did you do it? How'd you work that handful of points?

How many? Well, in the moment, I mean, we were up 19-16 in game one, and then we lost. Yeah. I think 21-19 maybe. Maybe we scored a world point. Didn't it seem that one ended up winning goal? No, they won sober. They won sober? we lost. Yeah. I think 21-19 maybe. Maybe we scored a world point. I just don't... To the team that ended up winning gold.

No. They won sober. They won sober? We beat this team that I had 10 times. Was this a German? No. We lost to Brazil.

Brazil. I think they were vibrant and they got sober. Well, we're a better team. They're a great team and they're Brazilian, very steady, very crafty,

very studied. Great. Like they changed. They're great. There's so many little... They're great. They're great. Shitty night. Yeah yeah but in the moment

it was just like hey this is gonna this is gonna pass I got it here we go and the same thing second game you were working

yeah I wasn't afraid no it was just it was weird the next night I was afraid fucking

so scared of that happening again yeah right when it's like everything in me knows i know the next night meaning the brats yes the brats yeah so you battled in that um in that semis oh yeah yeah so you are like oh my god please go to april please no i don't think so i don't remember everything in that way and not even in the in the brats battle match i never

thought that just like let's do it. And it's like, fuck, again? Again? What is happening? It was so confusing to me. Yeah. Because then mentally, I learned all the tricks that you taught me. And I'm working on being in the moment.

But at some point, I just got numb. There's no tricks. No. Tools. The tools. Excuse me. Sorry. The words matter. You're right.

They're tools. But then at some point, you recognize that I kept fighting. Right? And then at some point, I had a conversation with Marcio on the side tools. But then at some point, you recognize that I kept fighting, right? And then at some point in a conversation with Marcio on the side, and he's like, no, you were a fighter. But that came like six months later. I didn't hear that forever. And the narrative in my head was, it's all your fault.

You were so shitty. And you lost that for all of you guys, you know? And it's true. It's ouchy. How do you, it's ouchy, you said? Oh, it's so painful. Yeah, you were a radical competitor. And that's, you know's ouchy. It's ouchy, you said? Oh, it's so painful. Yeah, you are a radical competitor. And you know it.

The world knows it. I definitely know it. Marcio definitely knows it. Yeah. Yeah. It's been so fun to learn from you. Exactly. You know what I mean?

A lot. There's a lot of learning to do. Yeah. Which is my favorite part. And you've helped me reframe what competition means. And I'm so grateful for it. You know, I remember coming back from a world championships and I was describing like just these points of tension I was feeling in the big moments. And we had a conversation that there are no big moments.

And I was like, bullshit, there's big moments. And I think, you know, whatever. But and you're like, Carrie, you told me two things. You're like, Carrie, be mindful of the words you say because you know what you're talking about was a week ago and in europe we're here in hermosa beach a week later and i'm feeling tension he's like so be careful how you're framing things and i was like that's huge and then you're also like instead of thinking something's a big moment and this is like do or die or it's whatever just think of it as a competitive moment and it was like i can do that i think i can it was

so it was such a beautiful gift to me and now that i can share with my children and everyone else in the world who's pursuing anything meaningful it's just like just compete like and it makes me smile and then at some point down the road i i literally did start smiling in competitive moments be like this is this is why I'm here. This is my spot. Yeah. So thank you for that. It all comes down to what?

I want to hear your answer so bad. Oh, okay. Um, it's going to say, no, it's going to sound like probably I've asked this question a lot. No,

I know. What does it feel like your head? Cause I answered every time you ask it, I answer it. Yeah. This is going to sound probably unsatisfying to you but it comes down to this probably not

this moment water and so like how well do you bring yourself honestly forward to this moment and so

I know it's unsatisfying but that's no that's it that's the magic oh thank you for so much that you've shared helped me learn

and understand in an honest way you are so much that you've shared, helped me learn and understand in an honest way. You are special. So thank you. Appreciate you, Carrie. Love you. Thank you. Very much. All right.

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