Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - 95% of Creative People Struggle With THIS | Wieden+Kennedy's Neal Arthur

Episode Date: October 29, 2025

What if the real challenge of creativity isn’t coming up with ideas… but creating the conditions where people believe in them enough to fight for them?Today, we sit down with Neal Arthur, Global CEO of Wieden+Kennedy, the iconic creative agency behind culture-shaping work from Nike’s “Just Do It” to Coca-Cola and McDonald’s. Neal leads one of the world’s most inventive creative agencies, yet his lens on creativity isn’t about chasing brilliance. It’s about building the trust, safety, and belonging that allow great ideas to surface — and stick.We dig into how he unlocks creativity in a world changing rapidly with AI: the tension between stability and risk, how leaders create conditions for honesty, and what AI means for the future of creativity and culture. We also get personal: how growing up feeling “othered” shaped Neal’s obsession with belonging and creative safety, why pressure rarely produces great work, and how optimism, resilience, and humility fuel constant reinvention.In this episode you’ll learn:How to create conditions where pressure drops and creativity rises—even on deadlineWhy being “in it” with your team beats top-down mandates for great workThe key to using AI right now: shrink the problem, play, tweak, learnWhy “hard on the work, soft on the people” scales creative excellenceHow to navigate risk vs. stability when the future (especially with AI) is uncertainIf you care about unlocking world-class ideas in a rapidly changing world, this one is for you._____________________ Links & ResourcesSubscribe to our Youtube Channel for more conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and wellbeing: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine: findingmastery.com/morningmindset!Follow on YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and XSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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this is a great place to start. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com slash finding mastery. That's LinkedIn.com slash finding mastery to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Creatives are inherently misfit. inherently don't feel like they belong. I mean, that's their ability to tell the stories because they're outside of that story. What if the real challenge of creativity isn't coming up with ideas?

But creating the conditions where people believe in them enough to fight for them. Wyden Kennedy, what makes it distinctive is not that it makes good ads. It's that it's this creative culture in a culture where people have been able to come through its doors over 40 years and feel like they're a part of something that they can feel they belong to and feels bigger than themselves. Welcome back. Or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast where we dive into the mind. of the world's greatest thinkers and doers.

I'm your host, Dr. Michael Jerva, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. Now, the idea behind these conversations is simple, to sit with the extraordinaries and to learn, to really learn how they work from the inside out. This isn't about hacks or shortcuts. It's about understanding what they're really searching for, how they organize their inner world,

and the skills they've built to shape themselves and their craft. Today's conversation is with Neil Arthur, the global CEO of Wyden and Kennedy, the iconic creative agency behind some of the most cultural shaping campaigns of the last 40 years from Nike's Just Do It to campaigns from McDonald's and beyond. I don't think pressure is good in creative environments. The job of senior leadership is to kind of protect the company from those really explicit pressures. You don't put it just on one person. You don't say, Mike, it's on you. You've got 24 hours. And if you don't come up with something good,

you're out of here. Like, that's deadly. Why we wanted to have this conversation is because one of the promises of AI is that it will free up human creativity. Neal leads teams of incredibly creative people And we wanted to understand how he unlocks that creativity, especially in a world that is changing so rapidly with AI. You have to get rid of this notion that AI is this big capital letters thing and just keep messing with it. Have fun doing it. Make it small. Make it feel like a thing that we can play with and have fun with it and not feel like there's dire consequences or this thing that we're all waiting for. Because it feels like right now we're like everybody sitting there waiting for this meteor hit.

As you listen, consider what are the conditions in your life and work that help you be more creative. And how are you building trust that fosters that creativity in your relationships and teams? So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Neil Arthur. Okay, Neil. All right. Yeah. All right. I'm stoked for this because I think a really important conversation for me.

And I'll tell you why. It's because you are at the helm for one of the most creative agencies on the planet. and you work with highly creative people that have to deliver on time in a world-class way. There's a lot of complexity in what I just said to actually make that happen. And so I really do want to understand how you lead and what are the most important principles that you're working from to help unlock the creativity in people. So before we get to that, what do I need to know to really understand you? Personally, professionally, all of it.

Maybe. All of that. You're a full human. So all of it. I guess that's true. I guess I try to be a full human. My first response to that question would be, I think I grew up in an environment where, so okay, I'm going to back way up. It's okay if I tell you. Yeah, that's good. From the beginning. I'm black. I grew up in an environment that was largely white and a largely Mormon community in San Diego. And so I had a sense of being other that was like really present for me at all times. And I feel like I was always in this sort of act of figuring out if I fit in and where I, how I could fit in like, like everyone. But I think it was just kind of like really pronounced for me on two fronts, meaning the Mormon front in a predominantly race and religion. Yeah, race and religion. Like really it's those two things. And I always say that those two things are like super important to finding factors for me. And the net result being it was a feeling of always feeling othered, you know, in a real.

really surface and substantial way. And so I bring that up because I feel like that's a thing that I experienced my whole youth. And it's an experience that I, like, subconsciously identify with and others at all times. So I kind of felt like I wanted to work in a place and be around people that I could, like, I'm always very conscientious of trying to make people feel less other and feel more part of something. What a gift. And so, I don't know if it didn't feel like a gift, but it may end. What you've done with it for others feels like a gift to them.

You know, like you were able to use the thing where you had the most struggle or a big struggle, I don't know if it's the most, a big struggle, and convert it to something that is benevolent and kind and inclusive, and you're touching on the belonging thing, which is one of the core drivers for all of us. So I think there's a lot here because you're pointing to how you make others feel and how intentional that is for you. But can we stay here for a minute? Like, what was it like when you had race and religion and you felt others?

Like, what was that experience as a young, pick and age 14-year-old? Yeah. I mean, I'd say it's younger. Honestly, I remember feeling. at eight or nine, it was just very apparent that I wasn't like the others, you know? And I didn't know what to do with that feeling. It was just very real. And so I guess like I just always was kind of like part of me like probably most people didn't want to feel that way, wish that it didn't feel that way. But then learning to over time embrace that and to realize that that doesn't have

to be a thing that's problematic, but a thing that's a strength. What did you do when you had those that awareness and those feelings when you're younger. Did you bring it to your parents? Did you bottle it up? Did you fight about it? I talked to my parents. My parents were amazing about it. My parents would always, we would be very, you know,

the dinner table conversation all the time. What was your dinner table like? My parents are both big personalities. They enjoyed conversation and like debate. They really liked talking about hard things, things that were sticky and things that were uncomfortable. And they didn't just ask me how. my day was. They would talk about the things that would have bothered me in that day, the things

that made me feel pain, the things that made me happy and why. And so we talked about these things. Do you have brothers and sisters? I have two sisters. Yeah, they're both younger. And they were part of these dinner conversations. Yeah, for sure. Okay, so mom and dad are loud or soft? Dad's louder. Mom's softer. And my dad would do a lot of talking. My mom would do a lot of listening. And you did feel like you had outlets for both or he had the ability to respond to both. What's a question that still you remember them asking that was important to you? My dad, particularly, what do you want to be? That was always a thing that he would ask. Not what do you want to do? No. What do you want to be? That's an interesting distinction.

Oh, totally. Being and doing are oftentimes at odds for most people. We, as humans, are pretty good at doing, less good at being. And so that tension, world class athletes have been changing that model for the last maybe five to seven years. And they've been demonstrative with me about it, which is the idea that I need to do the extraordinary to be extraordinary is broken. It's flat out wrong. It never was really right. They're waving their arms and saying, no, I need to learn how to not do more to be more. I need to know how to be more and then let the doing flow from that place. Be more present, creative, open, connected, honest. And whatever doing flows from that place, it will be a better experience for all.

Meaning that that's the way to get to the high art of life and the high art of the craft is to switch the ordering from focusing on extraordinary doing to focus on grounded being and then layer on top of it a technical skill prowess that is unapproachable. And if you get that ordering right and athletes are demanding it right now in the world stage, I think the most switched on ones have always wanted it that way. You know, Bruce Lee, right, go down the ranks of those types. It wasn't just about doing. But I'm curious about, I'm guessing we resort to doing more often because it feels more goal-oriented and tangible.

That's right. So it's easy to say, like, I want to score this many points. I want to, you know, be in the record books for X. Whereas being, it feels less maybe measurable. Is that, am I? Yeah. Like, like, how do you measure the value of how well you were being today? Right. Yeah, totally. But a scoreboard, you can see. Yeah.

But the internal experience is completely private. Yeah. And we all know, maybe you, you know, maybe you felt this in your life at some point as a, as a executive is like, you're getting it done. But you don't like the company you keep going home. Right. You know, like you're getting it done, but like you're agitated, irritated, frustrated, frustrated, tired, overwhelmed, you know, and like, how long am I going to do this? that's a pretty common experience for most people. The doing is legit, but the being is quietly suffering. So the fact that dad introduced that, or you remember, that he introduced that memory is fallible in a lot of ways, is that the being part was important for dad. This is going to be important as we're getting to how you help unlock creativity in other people and how you structure

a leadership model from that. Are you being the person that you thought that you wanted to be as a young kid this is illuminating because I do think it was a massive gift that we were given my I say my sisters and I because the focus on what we wanted to be although less measurable was more substantive it was more and more flexible so if if you asked me what I wanted to do I would have said like my my dad was a lawyer and so I thought that I was going to be a lawyer like that was a thing and that was a very clear goal but like the what I wanted to be and I obviously didn't become a lawyer. I went to law school for one day and dropped out. But what I wanted to be has been consistent since those early days. And so, yeah, less measurable. Can you put some

language to it? How you were thinking. I guess I wanted to help people feel comfortable in the environment they were in. That's what I would say. Yeah. Has that been your course felt suffering that you've experienced? Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And when you say it out loud now, what happens for you? I think I feel a bit surprised by how linear that journey has been because I've had all sorts of different jobs and have like I've had like nine lives of things but like to realize how consistent and how clear that felt to me even when I'm when I when you ask me to think about those dinner conversations being eight or nine years old and realizing that's the thing I felt and that's still the thing that I'm compelled to do yeah right kind of blows my mind

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locator on their site. Just go to Davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. Again, it's Davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. This conversation will stick with me because the questions I ask my son, you know, 17, success for me is an adult relationship with my son. It's one definition of success that's really important to me. It's multifaceted. It's not ever a simple definition. But the fact that your father was asking you questions that you still think about today, you know, that come forward and it's still a through line, what a, to your language, what a gift? Like, what are important questions that you ask yourself and others now?

So let's start with like the interview. Like an interview, I kind of get, I get so little from like, what have you done or what jobs you don't? When you're interviewing somebody to come. Yes, sorry. Work for your company. Yeah. But I ask everybody to say, well, just tell me your story. And I'd love to start from the beginning.

And it's just incredible. Like, it's what we just did. Yeah. It's exactly. Yeah. And like, and I feel like I get everything. Not everything that's overstated. But like, I get so much.

But you made a choice to go, let me tell you the most important part of me when I asked, like, what do I need to know? And you said, race and religion, othered feeling. And family was really important. Yeah, I guess I could have answered that with, I went to high school in San Diego. Like, you know what I mean? No, you went straight. So that, it's not, this is a fun kind of log rolling, like we're watching the logs roll, is that what I'm watching for is not the actual mechanics of your answer. But the choice that you are making and not making. You didn't say, ah, sport. You didn't say, oh, music. You didn't say, whatever. You went to interpersonal and you went to an honest struggle because that's what you want me to know about you. Like, that's foundational.

Right. Totally. Yeah. So I love that we are bringing kind of the process forward that is happening underneath both of our surface. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

So, yeah. So one last kind of stay here is that what is it like for you to bring it forward? Sorry, can I, just to keep with this loggerly analogy. So the question actually is, isn't to tell me your story, that's an ask. The question really is, who are you, right? Which is, I guess, derivative of my dad's, who do you want to be? Who do you want to be? Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. Who are you is one of the most difficult questions to answer. Mm-hmm. You know, and it's one of the most ancient of all questions because, you know, some people think it's the wrong question, but it's been around thousands of years, you know, philosophers, theologians, who are we, who am I, who are you? And some people say, no, it's actually the question is what are you, not who are you, but that's for another conversation. What does it like to talk about this? Is this heavy? Is it light? Is it you've used the word linear? Is it illuminating? What are some of the words? This is that, in many ways, this is like the safest place I could feel. Yeah, right. You know what I mean?

It gives me energy as opposed to, like, when you get into like a rote conversation where you're just exchanging information, I'm like, I lose interest really quickly, you know. So is energy around what you do? Is that an important part of how you organize your life? Absolutely. Absolutely. Like, it's one of my favorite things to do is at the end of, This is going to sound really nerdy, but bear with me.

At the end of every year, I look at my calendar over the course of, I look at every month and every week. And I look at where I spent my time. And I kind of look at where did I spend time that gave me energy and where did I spend time that depleted energy? And do you do that by color coding things? Like how do you? Yeah, kind of like oftentimes physically and sometimes just mentally. But like, but it's kind of like there's just red and blue, you know, you know? Above the line, below the line, red and blue.

Yeah. And so are you looking at it week to week? Yeah. Yeah. So you're looking at the week like, oh, that week, wow, there was, I don't remember having a buzz from that. I don't remember that was like a slog week. For sure.

Oh, look at that. I didn't stand up between 12 meetings in a row. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And to be clear, it's not like just where I like my personal, like, where things I like, it's not that. It is an energy thing.

And because ultimately, I believe that if you, invest your energy in places where it's enriching, that's going to be positive for everybody around you. You know what I mean? And your impact will be higher. And so I want to find places where I can have the greatest impact and minimize the places where I don't. You know what I mean? So like that is it's not a, by any means just a an exercise and like I like eating ice cream. So I'm going to spend more time eating ice cream. It's figuring out where can I have the greatest impact versus the opposite. Yeah. It's not like you're selfishly saying, well, I didn't surf enough. right yeah totally like it's more it's okay and when you say impact are you looking to go

wide for many shallow and wide or are you looking to go deep and long with few I guess my knee jerk response that is is deep and long for sure yeah yeah for sure like I like shallow and wide isn't yeah you want to take a couple clients a couple relationships that and then goes far through that tunnel for sure and feel like I want to feel like I want to feel all day like I'm building something substantive, like I'm building something lasting. And when you find the right people, whether that be inside of White and Kennedy or outside of White and Kennedy or at home, that's the thing. I want to look at the end, I want to, at the end, be like the relationships that we've built and I've invested in have had real substance and sustainability. So let's go to your

role as a CEO. How do you define your role as a CDO? There's lots of functions that CEOs can take. How do you define it? I think it really is trying to uphold the values of this organization and trying. I mean, Wyden and Kennedy, without getting too far into it, it's like what makes it distinctive is not that it makes good ads. It's that it's this creative culture and a culture where people have been able to come through its doors over for over 40 years and feel like they're a part of something that they can feel they belong to and it feels bigger than themselves.

that's the gift that Dan and David have created and given to us. The founders. The founders, thank you. And I feel like it's Carl, my creative partner, Carl and I. It's our job to make sure that that's upheld. Okay, so let's rewind those big words for a minute. It's a creative culture. Yeah.

And then you said that people can do something. I miss that. Do something that's bigger than themselves. Bigger than themselves, which stacks purposely with the science of purpose. You know, purpose has three legs to the stool. It matters to you. It's bigger than you. you, it's out in front of you. So it's something to work toward. So you're laddering to the

science of purpose. And then you added a third variable. You can, you can fit in. You can, you're including, which is your whole thing. Yeah, which is my whole thing. Because the idea is that then you should talk about this very openly, but it's like creatives are inherently a misfit. He called Wyden Kennedy of the land of misfit toys. And, and creatives inherently don't feel like they belong. That's their ability to, to tell the stories because they're outside of that story, oftentimes. Most people, if you're a fish in the water, you never know that you're inside. Yeah. Creative's ability to step outside of that environment isn't just because they choose to. It's because they feel outside of that environment. They have an ability to observe things and then

talk about things and tell stories in a way that comes from somebody observing to be many of us experience every day. And so you're talking about a group of misfits in the culture of widen and Kennedy is to be the only place ideally, or not ideally, but it happens to be where those misfits, in quotes, can all feel like they're part of something, can all feel like they're in the same water. Yeah, so you, okay, and is that a word you use, you know, in the hallway? Yeah, we do. Like, we're a bunch of misfits here.

Let's get this thing together. Let's get it right. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah, I like that, you know, like, okay. But the way that you just described it, there was a sensitivity to being. on the outside. Yeah.

That's different than being othered or feeling other. Tell me more about that. I don't belong versus, no, I'm actually here, but I'm not completely in. I'm observing. So that's like, that's what I heard, which is there's a loneliness. I felt in, as you're describing it, the othered experience is like, man, they're not letting me in. Like, this is like, I don't know, maybe they are, maybe they're not, but I'm, I'm definitely not in. right that's how i experience like when i don't fit in in whatever kind of room or space i'm in

when certainly most younger versus like being an observer of something i'm trying to find to figure out honestly which like it's like i i guess the thing i would say is what's what happens a lot at widen is that people they don't know this environment exist in the world and when you get there for the first time you have this feeling of like oh wait I can just, it's enough to just be me. And that's some powerful shit. You know, I love that you said that. In football, one of the head coaches I'm working with in the NFL, he says, yeah, we're

on to some high-powered shit right now. Yeah. High-powered shit. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. And that is, I fit here. I'm a misfit many places, but I fit here amongst my people.

Yes. What do you do in the hallways to pull that way of being forward? Let's go two ways. Like in the hallways, if you will, or in the meeting rooms or whatever you're doing, what have you learned that congeals that great energy and what kills that? Great. So I guess when somebody starts at Wyden, they feel like they've joined this really creative company and they feel like a certain pressure to like to put their best foot forward and show up, show out, right?

And the reality of it is what you're trying to do for people when they start is to get them just, I know you're enough. You're good. You've already done enough. You're here. And who you are is what we're trying to see. In sports, it feel like when an athlete gets drafted in the first round, there's this incredible expectation.

They better perform and they better deliver. And I feel like in our environment, you're trying to get them to just understand, no, it's just enough to be you. It's crazy how you can almost see the moment when that unlocks. When somebody goes from wanting to prove that they deserve to be here, to feeling like to real the realization that it's enough that they're here that who they are is is good it's awesome like you see it in their physical form they change that you know

the the shoulders roll back and there's a confidence that that that is real confidence that's security that's that's that's self-assuredness that's like real stuff not any of the put on performative stuff they also do need to execute they need to deliver on time the things that you've promised to your, you know, constituents. So how do you balance the belonging and the being amongst us misfits? And you do actually have to meet the deadline that we've put in place with some high-powered stuff. Finding Master is brought to you by AG1. One of the through lines in high performance is consistency. Finding routines that support your mind and body day in and day out. And for me, AG1 has been one of those routines for over a decade now.

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slash morning to get your morning mindset routine. I don't think pressure is good in creative environments. You know, I'm sure there's tons of places where that's the case. I feel like the job of senior leadership is to kind of protect the company from from those kind of really explicit pressures. Do you have deadlines that you work from? Absolutely. Okay.

So how do you? So I think one of the things that you do is you don't put it just on one person. You don't say, Mike, it's on you. You've got 24 hours. And if you don't come up with something good, you're out of here. Like, that's deadly, deadly. My creative partner right now is listening. Like, I'll say to him, like, hey, how are you doing on that thing?

And he'll go, oh, good, I'm glad you're reminded me because I haven't been thinking about it for, like, the last 48 hours that it's due tomorrow. Like, yeah, appreciate you. Yeah, totally. Like, I just don't. Totally failing. Yeah. Is that right? Yeah.

Like, there's no way to put that pressure on somebody and expect something good back. Like, just no way. But so teach me. Like, he's got a deadline. Yeah, sure. Okay. I don't have a team, a luxury, what we do, we've got, we've got teams. One of our leaders here has moved to like more of a swarm team.

Yeah. As opposed to the one in the woodshed that is like, you know, driving something. So I guess that's the first. So I think there's an organizational thing, which is you never try to put it on the shoulders of one person because the general premise is if you want something great, applying massive pressure doesn't help. So if you believe that premise, then what you have to do is you have to offset, you have to kind of have a group of people, not just one.

I think it's another thing that's really important is I think as a leader, you have to be in it with them. You can't just ask them to do that. So if this thing falls apart, if on Friday afternoon I say, all right, gang, Monday morning, see it 8 a.m. and it better be good. No way. Like, I've got to be there, you know, figuratively, literally during that time, and in it with them.

And if you're in it with them, like, my partner. Carl, Carl, Carl works through, he'll never ask somebody to work on something that he won't work on himself. He'll put up things up on the wall. That gives permission to others to put more things up on the wall. And then you're going. Then that's where momentum happens. It'll never be because somebody from up top and some hierarchical organization goes, I need to see this by Monday. So I think you have to have a group of people.

So it's shared, like it's a writer's room style, you know, Saturday Live. And I think you have to be in it with people. And then I think the process, what's interesting is it goes from then being a process that feels pressure-oriented and starts to feel like a scarcity sort of notion to one that actually feels energizing and one that feels like there's momentum and energy going towards putting it. Because the best part of our day is just sitting there talking about ideas, talking about what things could be real or interesting for the brands that we work on. It's fun. It's like you get excited by it. And so to turn that into a pressure thing where you're just kind of like put. it on one person and say, see in 24 hours, you're robbing them of the chance to succeed

and the chance to enjoy the process. I got some stuff wrong. I got a lot to learn from you here. And I'll tell you where I think I'm not doing a great service in this is that I'm in it with them, but then there's like this dynamic that happens for us here at Finding Master's, we're trying to solve some of the most complicated challenges for enterprise companies to unlock the potential within their people. And so that's our mission.

That's our mandate, is we see that human flourishing as possible. Where's the place to unlock potential inside of the walls of work? Because that's where adults spend most of their time. And so we're trying to teach employee bases the same way we're teaching athlete bases. There's a whole set of psychological skills and practices to unlock all of that dormant goodness, greatness that's in there. And so there's like, we've got deadlines of things that we need to do. So we learn from the company, we back in what we think is a good strategy for us to deliver against what they're asking for. Some is off the shelf, some is bespoke.

And when we go into the writer's room to create something net new, some folks are in the creative kind of swarm of it. They're like, oh, I like it. I'm going to take it away and go build something because they're more introverted and kind of the lone one. And then they bring it back. And sometimes it's a great fit. Sometimes it's not to the others. And then now we're a little bit behind schedule. Right.

Yeah, yeah, totally. So how would you solve that problem? Because I don't think I'm alone in this. No, no, totally. Schedules and deadlines are an inevitable part of our reality. And by the way, that's for any creative formula. Like, you know, L.A. studios and it's everywhere, you know. Right.

But I do think you have to create a space where it doesn't feel like that's the driver. Like, it might be there. And every creative has a deadline in their mind somehow. So that's not a foreign notion, the idea that there's a time in which that thing has to get handed off. The difference, though, is that can't be the thing that's driving the process. That's where it gets deadly. Yeah, you know what it gets really tricky is that I think two things for me is like, I do really good work, great work, even when I'm up against it.

Yeah, sure. Right? And I think most people can go, oh, yeah, I know what that feels like. And like some people, it's overwhelming. Some people they like it, some, you know, whatever. So I like that. And then there's a part of me that I'll give you a concrete example is that let's say there's something that's due on Tuesday at 2 o'clock. Yeah.

And I might spend a week kind of putz it around cleaning my office. Yeah. You know, like, let me go back to like college. I might just organize my office or my desk for hours before I start writing. Yeah. But I'm not really just trying to get my papers in order and my pens in the thing. Yeah. Right. And then I know that I'm backed up against it. But what if I have a little ADD in there?

Yeah. And now I'm just kind of all over the shop and I've mismanaged my time alignment. And now I've only got a half hour to deliver something that I actually needed five hours to deliver. Yeah. So how do you manage against the disorganized, creative thing that some of the ADD type-minded swirls can go on? This is not a psychological assessment, but I would say 95% of Wyden Kennedy is ADD. And I'm raised my hand as one. Like, inefficiency is kind of part of the place. You said something that's really important. You said, I do my best work when I'm up against it. Yeah. What's the it is the thing? Because if the it is like a time-oriented deadline for a thing that you were to hand in

without any of your yourself attached to that, who cares? I like what you're doing. Who cares? That's right. That's a deadline that doesn't motivate me. That's not how I work, though. Right. That's right.

Yeah. Like what we do do well is when we're up against it being something that's going to have a chance for for for myself and and to to to show up in a way that that feels like growth that feels like opportunity like that's it like there's a lot of organizational things that are in that right so for example good job yeah yeah that's super clear our our people are they present all their own stuff they don't hand it to to me they don't hand it to carl and then we go share it in a meeting with important clients they do that so when so their motivation to to do do something isn't for us, isn't for the company, it's for themselves. That's when I feel like what we're up against the it is, is really important. And it has to be something where you're, it's personal. It's very personal. Yeah. Yeah. We've got four uses that we work from here. Soul. Substance. Speed and scale. Okay. These are hard. Hard. These are hard. If we go speed and scale, but we miss substance and soul. What are you doing? Trash. Yeah. Trash. If we go soul and substance, but we can never, we're still doing kind of one-on-one stuff and we have no speed.

And you haven't done anything. We don't have a business. You know, we have anything. And then if we've got no scale, then it's like we're not reaching the ambition. Our ambition is to help the world flourish. So if we do it for just a handful of people, then great. That's a practice. Right.

Like a psychotherapy practice, you know. So those four Ss are what's always guiding kind of our decision. So I over index on soul and substance. Yeah. Yeah, I see that. Yeah, I see that. All right. So let's go to two things. What are the primary principles that are guiding Wyden Kennedy? And what are the primary principles that are different for you personally, if there are any? This is like a Venn diagram. Okay, got it. Right? Yeah. And is the Venn diagram of the first principles in Wyden Kennedy, the same first principles for you? Or are they very different?

They're pretty damn close. Yeah, that's that makes it pretty damn close. You know, I mean, and that's what makes me feel an incredible amount of gratitude for the place. You know? When you recognize one of your employees or somebody that you're working with that it's, there's too much of a delta between their philosophy and the company's philosophy, their mission and purpose in life and the company's mission and person, how do you help guide them? This is a really interesting space because, so what's interesting about Wyden is that it's a place where ultimately it's about you.

And I think that's one of the challenge of working with tons of companies. The whole organizational structure of a company is kind of designed and built to kind of erode soul. You know what I mean? It's like you start with kind of these mission statements and these things that are like, well, it's so and such, we believe this. The minute you do that, there's no, there's no space for me, Neil, in that thing. And if you get to the core of what we really do, that's what we're trying to figure out

where the soul is. in your client's company? In our clients' organizations. And that's never on the boilerplate. That's never on the website. It's by talking to the people who are physically and emotionally, like, believe in that thing. And it's weird how that those are oftentimes very separate. And so you never go in and say, hey, I want to make a 60 second ad.

You'll find somebody, and hopefully more than one, person that goes, you go, that's the heart and soul of this thing. You know, we just found this place's truth. And what are you listening for? What's the tuning for for that? Um, you know, the minute that it feels like it's like a personal mission, you know, like the minute that it feels personal. Because whenever you start with a client, you kind of meet a bunch of different people and you hear a lot of like longstanding mantras and vernacular. Yeah, right. But then you meet somebody who's like, oh, I'll tell you why. Yeah. And then you kind of. kind of go, ooh. You know what I mean? Like everybody leans forward and goes, this is what I, this is like

the energy that is so attractive to me in environments of consequence. Because if you're not about it, if you're not committed to an honest approach to your craft, to your teammates, call it your partners in the thing, people get really hurt, sometimes die. And it's a forcing function for high powered honest stuff, honest commitments. And that's what I feel like you're tapping into is like, what's the real stuff here? And you get one, someone that lights up, and you're like, oh, that came from, okay, let's shift gears to like some of the amazing companies that you have worked with. Were you around for the Just Do It, the origins of Just Do It? Oh, no, I was a baby at the time. Yeah, so that was too young. But I, but I will say is, and this is what I didn't know at the time.

But when I saw the work from Just Do It and the work that came after it, I remember literally watching, it was Spike and Mike stuff, that stuff, it like had jumped out of the TV stream and felt like a character in my house. And as a kid who was othered and had a feeling, sense of otherness, and I was like, whoa, somebody sees me. Somebody, you know, physically looks like me. somebody who talks like me like and it was profound and so that went from like there's an ad where they had a jingle and all that to feeling like a personal and human connection i didn't know that was possible so it wasn't until years later that i found that there was a company that did this stuff and get to work with a company like nike and it all came together but like i remember the feeling of that Yeah, right.

You know, and I was kind of chasing that subconsciously for a long time. So that informs for me, it's like what we talk about a lot is just truth, is getting to truth. Finding Master is brought to you by Fatty 15. One of the core questions I often return to is, what does it mean to age well, not just live longer, but with clarity, energy, and the zest to keep doing what I love. That's why I've been invested in consistently taking Fatty 15 for a few years now. It is a daily supplement. It's powered by C-15, the first essential fatty acid discovered in over 90 years. What sets fatty 15 apart is its focus on cellular resilience.

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again that's square sq u a r.com slash go slash finding mastery you know and so what's often the case is when you meet with a client they tell you what they'd like to be you know like here's who we'd how we'd like people to see us and you go oh it's never that interesting I say interesting, I mean, in a soulful way. But then you find somebody who can talk about who they are and they're proud of it. That's where you go, okay, now we're cooking. You know what I mean? Do you have an example that you could bring forward about that of a company that has gone

through that journey with you? Yeah, I mean, I would talk about a recent one. I mean, McDonald's has been interesting because McDonald's was a company that it's so easy to get kind of lost in the noise. There's so much noise out there about, you know, everyone has an opinion. you know about McDonald's and so it gets very easy to kind of get distracted by all the opinions that that's the way there's a cacophony of noise out there now with social media that you you know that so everyone you're kind of like constantly reading your reading your critics

you know and and it can be harder i think than ever to be proud of who you are and what you're about and it's been awesome McDonald's that there's this whole thing about fan truce and the reality of it is is every you know everyone has experiences McDonald's and everybody has something they love about this brand and the product itself. And so when you lean into that, it can create something magical, you know? So when you lean into what people love about you, it's almost always more because it's first of all true. What they love about you. Yeah. What about in advertising, there is a thing that is either intentional or accidental, but relatively destructive, which is if it bleeds, it leads, if it, uh,

stir something up in somebody that is gripping. There's usually some anxiety formed with it. So the idea of like the approach that you're not enough unless you have our stuff. Yeah. It makes me crazy. It's doing a lot of harm. I don't know where you guys sit with it, but I'll give you a good example is that one of my colleagues, I'll keep the brand out of it right now.

It's a multinational. Aren't the holidays stressful? Come have a cup of coffee with us. us to ease your stress. Okay. I'm seeing the stress part of you and I'm saying I'm going to solve your stress. Okay. As opposed to, aren't the holidays amazing? Family friends, singing gifts, it's an awesome time. Come with us. We love to celebrate with our people. Have a cup of Joe with us. Okay. So that idea like I see the good in you, the amazing in the moment, as opposed to I see the weakness in you or the stress in you or the vulnerability in you and I'm going to solve it. So I consider

that below the line versus above the line. Yeah. And there's below the line coaches, there's above the line coaches. They see the potential in you versus they see all the mistakes you make. Yeah. In advertising, you know, there's above the line and below the line. Where do you, where do you guys sit? Or is this even a conversation that you would have? Like, it's really interesting because we do find this, and I say this without any Huberstall,

it's like we don't think of ourselves really as an advertising agency. It's like, because I think advertising at the core. You say creative. Yeah. And I think even within that there's a distinction because, because like, I think the advertising and oftentimes what you associate with advertising is one of kind of cheesy persuasion, you know? How can I get you to switch the water you're drinking because you, you know, because you like this color or you like the way this music sounds? We're not in that game at all.

Our thing is to basically just try to figure out who you are at your best as a company. And how do you make that a bat signal out to the world? That's a complete above the line approach. yes I guess I guess and every so I'm seeing if you're my surfing coach if you're my basketball coach yeah and you're seeing what I could be capable of yeah if it lined up brilliantly and it's amazing and if I really kind of did some work like that's possible for you right that yeah okay yes so as opposed to like poof we got some work to do Jesus like you know you left foot's a mass and I'm not familiar with the distinction of above line below line but I'm identifying very strongly with it because my personal experience, I was as an athlete, I was two different

athletes. What sport? A variety of sports, but baseball and football. And I was two different athletes. I was an athlete that was a good athlete and had tons of potential with a coach who believed in me. And with a coach who was more negative and try to motivate me through my shortcomings, I was a disaster. How do you take those practices or what you experienced? and bring that into leadership. One to one. Like I just, I would, I never want to be that coach. So how do you actually do it?

When you're sitting one on one with somebody, what's happening inside of you or what are the words that are coming out? Well, I just always want to focus on what's on your potential. I want to focus on the good things that you've done. And even the negative things, I want to talk about them in the context of like, of just being an opportunity, not a failing, not a character flaw. Yeah. So let's make it even more concrete.

Let's say that I ask a different question, which is, for what reason do you find people. How about it? Yeah, okay. I fire people for a variety of reasons. One, if they don't feel like they don't have the intention to make the place and the people around them better. That's game over, you know? Because that is an assault to a first principle in your life and the broth for creative expression at Wyden Kennedy.

Absolutely. Yeah. Both. Yeah. Because you're trying to destroy a very... a very sensitive and in critical creative environment. And how do you coach them if it's a blind spot? And they don't realize that complaining, talking about someone behind their back or withholding

information, they thought that that was okay. I don't know. Do you coach it? You're right. Actually, just not okay. Not okay. So you hit it square. You're like, listen, this behavior is unacceptable.

This may have been okay at other places. And I understand that there are environments where that is the case because you do have to, like, I do want to acknowledge that there are environments where that might. might be the norm. Yeah, right. So that's, that's okay. It's not, I don't want to assume that it's their personality or their, you know, their, their way of being. But that's not okay here. And this is a culture that it is built on the ability to collaborate and work with other people and care for their personhood. How many strikes do you give? Uh, not that many. Is this a one and done? Or is this like a, it depends like, two strikes. Yeah, like I don't have a hard and firm, but like,

But basically, if you are aware that that's a thing that's not accepted here and you do it anyway. What about being late? We go back to that tension of schedules and timelines for the creatives. Oh, we're really late back about that. I mean, being late's kind of part of part of the game. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Like that's one of the most common calls they have to make is the clients being like, hey, sorry.

You know what I mean? And honestly, like, it's not a big deal to me because. Because it's not like by intention or design, because I think late without, I think it's very different. I think being late without regard for the other person is disrespectful. But for me to call a client, say, I know that you need this by today. We're close. And if you gave us two more days, this thing will be what you deserve and what you need. That's a different conversation.

I think there's a form of respect in that. Yeah, no different than for the coaches and athletes in our community that are like, if you're going to be late to a practice. I'm thinking I just my son's youth coach he's like what sport volleyball okay yeah indoor and he's like man it's hard getting kids nowadays to be on time it's like parents and that to da and I said and he says I'm doing them a disservice because I have not been holding that line and but if you get into the pro ranks in any sport be early it's it's a it's a mandate not on time be early and he says I'm doing a toll disservice when they go to college and they're sliding in a few minutes late to everything, I'm doing a great to service. So holding people accountable to

behaviors is a tricky thing. You kind of back yourself into, you know, a corner sometimes. And so what you're just talking about there, I'm like, that idea holds up in sport as well as as in business. Like, hey, I'm sorry, I'm going to be a few minutes late, got caught up. It's, you know, give me a pass on this one. You know it's out of the ordinary. Yeah. Yeah, totally. by Momentus. If you followed us for a while, you know how highly I think of momentous and what they're trying to do in the supplement industry. They talk about something they call performance for life. I want to say that again, performance for life. I love that because it puts words as something

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Head to live momentus.com and use the code finding mastery for 35% off your first subscription. Again, that's live momentous, L-I-V-E-M-O-M-M-O-Mentos, LiveMomentis.com, and then use the code finding mastery for those who are in it for the long game. All right. So let's do this. Let's think about what you're seeing around corners. Go out five to 10 years. Go out three to five. Whatever horizon is interesting to you, I have a hard time going past three. Yeah. You do two? Yeah. I mean, it's hard to go past two weeks. Yeah. Okay. Good. Yeah. So let's try to go out three to five. Yeah. As a horizon one and two. We got AI coming on strong. There's a promise that it's going to free up the mundane to open up human creativity. you're sitting at the helm for one of the greatest creative agencies on the planet and you're working with the most highly creative people I'm sure you're using AI you know I'm I'm sure that there's practices I'm not interested in that I'm more interested in what are you seeing first what are you seeing in three to five years and perfectly is fine I say I have no idea you know like but what are you thinking about humans AI and humans three to five years out

I agree with all of the, what seems to be common, pervasive knowledge that there's not a fad or trend thing. It's going to be massively transformative to society. It already has to some degree. The straightforward answers, I have no effing idea what it's going to be in five years. I don't think anybody who says they do is lying. I think the thing to me is how to manage through this time when nobody knows what's next. That's the interesting question. Because like, I could care less what the pundits would say is going to be, because we, we, we, don't know. In the corporate world, everything's about stability and, and like, clarity of, of kind of knowing what's next. When you don't have any clue, how do you manage that? Managing through

change and chaos, that's going to be the thing for the next three five. And if you can figure that out, you will crush. What do you think is the mindsets that are critical to manage through that chaos and change? My thing is, I feel like the biggest mistake people make is they kind of are kind of wait. I think there's a paralysis that's happening right now. And I feel it of like, what do we, what do we do? And so everybody's waiting for this moment when there's like a definitive conclusion about what AI means for client X's business. And so everybody's sitting still. Are they pulling back capital resources for you guys? No, I think it's right now what I feel most is just kind of wait and see. And I think that's actually a very dangerous place to be. And I think

what we have to do is demystify the idea that there's going to be this one, sweeping moment of change that we're all waiting for and then things will be clear and then we can get back to normal. I think we have to lean into the chaos that is now. I think we have to make it feel, you know, what's the how do you need an elephant one bite at a time? I think you just have to play. You have to get rid of this notion that AI is this big capital letters thing and just keep messing with it. Keep playing with it. Keep tweaking it. Have fun doing it. Enjoy the price because that's what we're doing. Like we're loving the prospects of AI. It's amazing. It's amazing the impact that's having. And we're doing all the ridiculous things that you can do with AI.

and pushing the boundaries of what's possible right now. And that we'll have application. They'll have application everywhere. But I think the biggest thing you have to do now is to kind of embrace the idea that it's not about this big sweeping thing. Make it small. Make it feel like a thing that we can play with

and have fun with and not have like, feel like there's dire consequences or this thing that we're all waiting for because it feels like right now we're like everybody's sitting there waiting for this meteor hit. You know, it's like, no, no, don't just sit there. Generally, I think I know the answer,

but I feel like generally your framework is to be an optimist. Yeah. Right? Like, you see that there's good. Yes. It's going to like break free out of whatever conditions that we're in. Yeah.

And there is obviously real concerns. It doesn't mean that there's a naivete for an optimist. People like say, oh, I'm not a pessimist or an optimist. I mean, realist is just, how do you see the future? Do you see it as bleak or as, right? You pick. You know, you can be grounded in reality in both of them. All right.

So there's an optimistic. frame and what you're suggesting is like let's not wait for the meter to hit let's actually wrestle and play now yeah so is play a big word for you yeah i mean i wouldn't say that i use it all the time but it's definitely like the ethos it's like it's just advertising you know it's just like it's like we're always trying to demystify that what we do it we're not doing like you do real stuff we don't it's funny right you know if a meteor hits and kind of wipes us out i'm not sure we need sports psychologists by the way okay yeah right we're all's going to be okay yeah right we're We need some agriculture.

Yeah. We need some stuff. And like, and yeah, it's, it's dumb, but it also is important. It gives you permission. Like the minute you get high and mighty on, I'd say almost anything that we do, you know, and certainly what we do in this business, you lost the plot, you know. So in that, there's permission, you know. Very cool.

So let's go back to you for just a minute here. Dior had Balenciaga. Kobe had Jordan. Beethoven had Feeney. So who's a muse? Who inspires you that you are looking to that are either alive or not with us that helps guide your thoughts, words, your inspiration, your actions? I mean, no question, Dan and David. Really?

Yeah. For sure. Founders. Yes. Yeah. I mean, those guys, the fact that they kind of wanted this culture to outlast them, so few people have, most people who create companies, particularly creative companies, they want to be known for their, for what they built and for what they made. And these guys wanted a culture that outlasted them, you know. And I think about them more than I'd care to admit.

Like, not in a fundamentalist way at all, just as a pure inspiration for like what what your value system needs to be, you know? Very cool. That what a great alignment. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, very cool. All right.

So we covered a lot of territory. I'm interested, like, what are you working on now? Like what maybe it's in either internal or business wise what like what are some of the things you're working on a lot of people talk about balance and like I don't have any like I don't like there's two of us in this conversation I don't know balance you know and like I'm and it works it's like I don't like I don't have this delineation of like what I'm doing at work is different than what I'm doing it's it's the same shit man I'm trying to like figure out how to be myself and to be accepting and create space for others. The whole time. There's a component of modern leadership that you embody that I think is worth just noting, which is you're very porous, meaning you have not compartmentalized. This is who I am at work and this is who I am at home. Like you are being you in whichever room in this case that you inhabit.

And so that fluidity of accessing the primary parts of you in any room is part of the walk of mastery for sure. So that idea like, man, I don't know. I'm just trying to be me. Yeah. It's really freeing. And then how good are you at emotions? Ooh. I think this is another component that's essential for modern leaders.

Yeah. Is to understand that we're all playing an emotional game. Yeah. And do you treat emotions as kind of just a general thing? Or is there room for? So I'll operationalize it like super concretely. Emotions are physiological sensations that are observable. Yeah.

So if my heart starts pounding, you're going to see my skin change. You're going to see maybe me start sweating. If my hand's got a little tremor on them, you'll see that. They're observable. That's an emotion. The way I make sense of the emotion is the feeling, and that's private. So say I've got a little jitter going or my breathing's changed and I go, man, I feel great.

I'm alive. This is amazing. So I'm excited. So the label is excitement, right? But if I go, oh, man, this is too much. I don't like how this feels. Then I'm nervous. Right.

So the emotion is the physical and the feeling is more psychological. It's private. So if you want to do something amazing in life, the game is about emotions. Absolutely. Yeah. Because I'd say that's the business that we're in. Yeah. Well, you're getting people to kind of move and be connected and like whatever.

But like I'm talking about for you, like emotions in the workplace. Emotions at home. Emotions in your car. So with that context, I would say that was actually, you've helped me a lot. but that would be the thing when you say what am I working on it's allowing that to be up front because so much of bring it to the surface we need you totally like so much of like what happens I feel like is you know as a kid it's okay to be emotional early on and then all of a sudden is there's kind of like well let's not let's manage these and I feel like what I'm actually

working on is the ability to have those emotions live front and center all the time that's right what gets in the way of it for you uniquely you just speak for yourself oh the the the idea that I'm supposed to be this level headed is maybe a leader you're supposed to be fairly unflappable and it's like an it's like you know you you know me well enough in this short time and I'm not a thorough things at the wall person so that's not like there's like I'm not going to put anybody in danger you know it's just a question of it can I have the freedom to voice and fail frustration and have that because we create spaces to do that in the process of creating ideas, but I don't know that we, that like, that we have the space to, to be that all the

time. Neil, you're the adult in the room. Okay. Right. So, like, you know, I'm, I say that because at one time, adults told us, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, keep it together. Yeah, that's right. Hey, suck it up, suck it up. Yeah, yeah. You know, or like, wow, that's a lot of emotion. Like, are you sure, like, can we do that later? Like, and there's time in place. Don't get me wrong. Like, you know, there's an art to what we're suggesting. You're now the parent. Yeah, that's right. I don't I don't mean that derogatorily, but in the structure of hierarchy, like, when you're like, who, guys, I'm feeling something here, you know, hold on. And maybe your eyes are flooded.

Maybe you're shaking a little bit. Maybe you're sad. Maybe you're, like, tired and you're, like, bringing that forward. It's awesome. It brings permission for other people to work from the loudest and the most intense part of the human experience is the emotional bit. Yeah, totally. And if we're muting that, we have muted the human experience.

Yes. So how about it? And listen, I love that push because I think ultimately, Dan had the thing where he said he loves the place most when it feels like it's off the rails. And if I were to break that down, he's getting at what you're saying, where it feels like it's a collection of 2,000 people that are being able to emote. So that is like the Olympics are for big emotions. World championships are for big emotions. Absolutely. And if you're not comfortable or skilled at working with big emotions, it becomes too big.

Absolutely. Okay. Now, off the rails bit is this is what it feels like for me is when I have, I have choices. I can open up the aperture and have emotions flowing and I can close it down a little bit. Like I've got a management of that that is pretty good. But there's a difference between like a comfort zone and an uncomfortable zone and this thin, porous range between the edge of uncomfort and panic. where it's like, well, if I open up that level of aperture, I might fall into a thousand pieces.

Right. That is where the unlocks happen. Right. Right. You get some good stuff in the uncomfortable zone. Right. But when you're right at that edge, and this is what the greats have taught me,

like that is the place to play. And if you can play right on that panicked edge and it's emotional, you don't know how it's going to go. You can fall into a thousand pieces. Yeah. You likely will. And sometimes you're going to unlock something that is beyond what you even could imagine.

Yeah. That's the place. I love this. I love this, too. Sorry to get on the soapbox there. All right. So, look, thank you for helping me feel what you're trying to build as a modern leader, guiding people to unlock their creativity. And you've been doing it a long time.

And you give hope and promise to like this idea. Let's just play and wrestle with AI. That's cool. And let's keep seeing what's possible in people. Hold the potential at the front. And you call that above the line. Above the line. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. And that's like, you're going to hear that in your head now. Is this above the line? Narrative? Is this below the line? You know, one of my favorite coaches is in football. He's like probably six foot five traps coming out of his shoulders like bald head, lumpy, great human. And he's gruff. And he goes, Mike, man, I step on a lot of people's shoes. But I'm going to promise that I'm going to get on my knees and I'm going to scrub them back to my best ability. But man, I talk. I'm sorry. certainly, like, step on shoes and, like, you know, it's like, that's still above the line. And the spirit, like, he wants to help build, which, which, by the way, that's a very important point, but I think it's lost sometimes is the idea that there's a notion that you have to kind of always love people and always kind of get, you know, you're only focusing on the positive. I think that's a shortcoming. I think that you're not giving people a chance to succeed. I think we have this thing. There was a creator director that worked with us for a long time.

And you say you have to be hard on the work, but soft on the people. Cool. And I love that notion, right? Because I think that ultimately people want to be pushed. Oh, I think people want to, I use the word challenged. I think people want to be challenged to see how far they can take their ideas or their expression of their craft or whatever. And exacting high performing environments are very, very nauseatingly difficult in my experience. I don't know what it's like to work in Wyden Kennedy where it's like maybe it's the most playful, fun, amazing but only my experience has been that it's really hard yeah it's on yeah totally and you got to bring it yeah totally yeah and i think the difference being is are you bringing it for someone else

or are you bringing it for you that's right and i feel like that's when our environment's at it's best there is pressure but that pressure is because you want to show up and show out for for for yourself yeah right you know what i mean and and and and and comparatively to the other people that are around you you know and there's a healthy competition in that and i do a healthy is it an important word yeah Yeah, cool. What a fun conversation, man. Thank you for spending time coming in and kind of getting down into the truth of it. Oh, it's a pleasure. I wish I had my notebook out the entire time. We'll send it over. We'll send the transcript over. Yeah. This is AI tools for that now. Yeah, exactly. Good. But thanks, it's time for the time. Appreciate it, man.

Coming up next on Finding Mastery, we're joined by Matt Garman, CEO of Amazon Web Services, one of the most influential voices in technology and AI. In this episode, Matt and Dr. Javey tackle one of the biggest questions of our time. Is AI replacing people or empowering them? They explore what real leadership looks like in an age of automation, how to make high-stakes decisions at scale, and why human judgments still matters most. Join us Wednesday, November 5th,

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