Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - A Conversation With The Mentor Who Changed My Life | Gary DeBlasio

Episode Date: May 6, 2024

Today we have a very special conversation.As we chart our path through life, there are those rare anchors that help to hold us steady and also point us to new horizons. In this special conversation, I have the privilege of introducing you to my mentor and someone who has been a guiding force in the lives of countless individuals across a spectrum of industries for over forty years. Gary DeBlasio has this incredible knack for unlocking potential in people. It’s incredible how he does it. And he’s been doing it with leaders in aerospace, healthcare, elite sports and academia for decades. Gary's wisdom is earnestly earned. I’ve had an upfront seat on how he works – the alone, internal work that he’s done for himself, is one of the greatest investments he’s provided to his larger community. He is a bellwether for me. His approach to mentorship—being both a teacher and a student, listening deeply to one's inner voice, and fostering a connection with something greater—has profoundly shaped my own path.Today, we dive deep into the heart of our relationship, exploring the transformative power of being seen and nurtured. Gary opens up about his philosophy on life transitions, the challenges of the next generation, and the critical role of recovery and creating safe spaces for oneself and for others.This conversation has so much emotion in it – for both Gary and me….I love you Gary. Thank you for what you’ve done for me, and for the Finding Mastery community._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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the way you know me. Let's talk about mentorship. You have to help a person from the inside out. What is your understanding of men and emotions? Most men are afraid of their emotions. How do you not judge and critique when you clearly saw that I was a mess? That's not my job. My job is to hold a mirror up and say, is this who you want to be? You have something to teach me. I have something to teach you. And we both have to pay attention here. Oh, you're feeling it, aren't you? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast.

I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. Today, we have a very special conversation. As we chart our path through life, there are those rare anchors that help to hold us steady and also point us to new horizons. In this special conversation, I have the privilege of introducing you to my mentor and someone who has been a guiding force in the lives of countless individuals across the spectrum of industries for over 40 years. Gary de Blasio has this incredible knack for unlocking potential in people. It's incredible how he does it.

And he's been doing it with leaders in aerospace and healthcare, elite sports, and in academia for a very long time. His insights and wisdom is earned, earnestly earned. And I've had this upfront seat on how he works, the depth of his alone work, the internal work that he's done for himself is one of the greatest investments that he's provided to his larger community, to me, to my family, to all of us here. He is a bellwether for me. His approach to mentorship, being both a teacher and a student, listening deeply to one's inner voice and fostering a connection with something greater than oneself. That has profoundly shaped my own path.

So today, we dive deep into the heart of our relationship, exploring the transformative power of being seen and nurtured. Gary opens up about his philosophy on life, transitions, the challenges of the next generation, and the critical role of recovery and creating safe spaces for oneself and for others. This conversation has so much emotion in it for me. For both Gary and myself, we are full of emotions during this. I love you, Gary. Thank you for what you've done for me. Thank you what you've done for all of us here in the Finding Mastery community. And with that, let's dive right into this incredible conversation with my mentor, Gary de Blasio. Gary, we've known each other for a

long time, and there's not many people that know me the way you know me. And I would venture to say maybe nobody. So this is a real treat for me to be able to have a conversation with you about you because you've spent in a very thoughtful, discerning way, 40 years of knowing me. And so I'm a little nervous. Me too. Yeah. And only because of how much I care about you and also that you know all of me. No secrets. I don't know where this is going to go. I have no idea either.

So all that being said is maybe we can just start with how we met and before we kind of dive into it, this will be like no other interview that I've ever had. Okay. So maybe we can just start there. Like, do you remember where we met? Yeah. We met on a ski trip. Uh, we chaperoned a cabin. We know We chaperoned a cabin. We? No, you chaperoned the cabin. You were my assistant. Yeah. Wait, I was your assistant?

Yes. Yes. That's how it was set up. I was 15 years old, though. No, I think you were 17, seemed to be 18. Yeah. And yeah, it was Martin Luther King weekend. We went up to Big Bear. And you and I had a cabin.

I did not put that together. And all of my time, I felt like, well, I was a kid. But I felt like you were an elder and I was a kid. And I didn't think I was part of a staff. Yeah, you were part. Yeah, because I had a lot of guys. It was an old guy cabin. We had a lot.

And so you were there to help out with the cabin. Oh, that is so funny. And then we really connected. I had no business, by the way. Yeah. You were actually very good. We had, the thing we connected on was the war that was connecting. That's right.

Where was it? Saudi Arabia? No. No, it was the desert storm. Yeah um where was it saudi arabia no no it was um oh god desert storm yeah it was desert storm it was just on the tv all the time and so we connected with that with the kids all talking about that yeah so what i remember about that is being in the cabin being up in nature a conversation about war and i had done a bunch of writing on it. And I had written like some poetry and some writing, and I just was in that vibe at that time.

And I remember you going, oh, what is that? Oh, what did you mean when you wrote that? Oh, that's interesting. What's that like for you? And I just remember, it was on a couch. We were on a couch and I remember. Yeah, do you remember exactly that? I remember that discussion.

And, you know, you were acting like no one's ever acknowledged your work before, that you're writing or acknowledged you. I was acting? No, I was experiencing. I think. And then you helped me understand that you felt seen for the first time, right? Yeah. So it was, I didn't know that at the time. No.

I didn't know that that's what was happening. No, but we connected over that, over your writing. And then from that place, I don't quite remember kind of the next phase of it was really blurry. Well, I remember what, over the writing we connected and I said, I would love to hear and see more of your writings. Why don't you stop by my house and you know let's let's talk about your writings yeah and then you had a dog and i had a dog and they connected that's right and so then the two dogs connected and you would come over with max and uh wald and my dog were best buddies yeah and we would be talking about your writing sitting in the living room and yeah after they roughhouse they would just lay

there and listen to us i know i'm pretending like they cared that said i was i at that time i think contextually might be important is that um i was a morally sound kid yes and really good morals yeah like i was my parents did a nice job of kind of grounding us in solid morals. However, I felt a bit lawless. And I was breaking a lot of rules because that felt right. I never found myself in major trouble, but there was like this punk rock, push against the edges, counterculture, off-access. You know, like I'm not following the the normal rules and that's at least how i felt on the inside you were a floater i i always consider you like a floater you know you

you were a surfer skateboarder you know but you weren't really breaking rules but you were trying to push them as far as you could. You were aimless is probably the word. You weren't sure exactly where you were headed or how you were going to get there. And we had a lot of discussions about that, you know, in school and areas that you might be interested in based on your writings. That was like for the first time I was like, oh, I am aimless. Yeah. And it's probably –

I probably use that word. A lot. Yeah yeah that was a kind way of saying get a clue dude but um i i felt like i was a ball of like not energy like erratic energy but potential but i i never knew really what that meant this experience of being seen has stayed with me and like you've just got a way of doing that your whole life so i i want to understand how you do that and i want to understand in this conversation um what you've dedicated your life to and your guiding philosophies that are impacting the way that you organize your thoughts and your words and your actions. So maybe what we can just start with is when you were younger.

So when you were about the same age that I was, what was life like for you? I grew up in New Jersey, right outside of New York City. And so all I knew is that I came from a large family as far as cousins, just three of us in the family, but a lot of cousins. And we were always together with family, as far as cousins, just three of us in the family, but a lot of cousins. And we were always together with family, family. And I just needed to find me. And so I know when I was looking to go away to school, it had to be away. College. College. Yep. So you knew you were going to go to college? Yes. In high school, you knew that? Yeah. I always knew that. yes. And I knew it was going to be my way of moving outside of the family to get a sense of who I was and if I could make it outside of this family that I had that surrounded me and everything. I had extended family, cousins, aunts, uncles who are always there. And so I needed to know for me, I needed to get out of that to know

that I could survive and be the man I wanted to be without that support system. How did you have that awareness at a young age? Like what led to that? I think what led to it is when you have grown up in the size of Italian family that I did, you know, and everything is done, was done for you, especially if you're male, right? Everything was done, you know, and, um, you were, you know, wherever I went, there was a relatives. So, um, I wanted to know what that was going to be like, not having that, where it was just me. I needed to know what it was going to be like just to be me and not a member of this thing. So was that out of pain? I would say there probably was some pain there,

not conscious pain, but a little sadness that I just needed to get a sense of, okay, who is this individual without this extended family around him all the time? And I remember when I was in graduate school, we did a modeling of what our families looked like. And I did one, and it was just like I was in the center, and I was just surrounded by all this. And the feedback I got was like, wow, it looks like you're drowning. And I was like, yeah, that's why I had to get out

because I didn't know who i was without this group around me you know so and that makes sense about how you were able to recognize the um the desire the need for individuation and separation which are two healthy words seeming yes you know but at the time like i didn't i didn't know so what was it like as a how old were you when we met i was 17 i guess you're uh 35 30s yeah let's see i'm 68 now so 16 years older i was double your age okay so 32 yeah what was it like to be a 32 year old seeing a 17 year old kid i didn't didn't try to individuate in the way that you did. I was clueless.

I didn't even know that I was going to go to college. Yeah, I know. We had many discussions on that. It was just, I guess it's what I dedicate my life to, helping young men see their potential. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You can't say that to me, like, casually. Because I felt it.

Like, I know it. And so much of my life efforts is that. It's not for young men. It's genderless in that respect. Right. Why did you want to focus on young men? I think because growing up, I saw so many young men floundering. It was the sex revolution and men just didn't know how to be

men. There was no guidance. In ancient cultures, men were taken away from the families and they were guided by elders. And I always felt that that was important to give young men. It's like they needed to be guided by another man who had been through things in a similar way. So early on, after the first probably five or eight years of my career, I was like, I nearly need to focus in on this because these guys are lost. And so I saw myself as someone who could hold a mirror up, you know, and say, is this who you want to be? You know, and in fact, always, if you ever came into one of my offices, I always had a mirror because I did a lot of mirror work, you know, with looking in the mirror and doing a lot of different exercises. And so it's like this is you have to look in the mirror and that's who you need to feel comfortable with. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of,

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Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery.

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the way that you would look and then ask questions there was always like there was a um a kindness and an intensity and a purpose about our conversations. So when you say you wanted to help young men understand, did you say, what is the word you say? Did you say understand or realize their potential? Yeah. Yeah. See, if they were going to, who they wanted to be as men in this world, right? And then how would you go about it?

So it was this mirror experience, but let's drill right underneath of that. Okay. So based on all of your insight and wisdom and research on practice, how would you guide somebody to say, if you want to help somebody out, here's a couple of things you can do in conversations.

Here's a couple of things you can do in the way that you hold space in the relationship. How would you guide us? Basically, what I have always done is just getting them to talk about who they are, you know, and to really, you know, hone in on their experiences, their dreams, because they all have them, but no one's really taken the time to ask them about their question. That's what happened in the cabin. Yeah, that's what happened in the cabin yeah that's what happened in the cabin it's like i saw that you were into writing and it was and writing is one

of the things that so many young men do but they keep it hidden oh it's totally protected and so it's corny it was corny and then all of a sudden let's pay attention to it you know was it any good what do you think yeah you're gonna read it no you want to read it out loud? Was it good? It was good. You're just saying. No, of course it was good. I wouldn't have wasted my time if it wasn't. Oh, now we know. Okay, good.

No, no. I really have always seen that the writings tell more of the story than what the person is going to give me. So your writings told me much more about you than you were verbalizing at the time. So they took us inward. You know, my mentor, Dr. Paul Lustig, he always taught that you have to help a person from the inside out, right?

That you need to know your gut. Do you know the main emphasis of Finding Mastery? Yeah. Is to help people work of Finding Mastery? Yeah. Is to help people work from the inside out. Yeah. I've never heard you, I'm having a moment, because I've never heard you use that phrase from your mentor. And here I am X number of years, decades later,

and the mission of our company is to help people work from the inside out. Well, because, yeah. Well, when you said said when i first read the acknowledgement in the book yeah i said for the first rule of mastery yeah i said my mentor would be so proud because i paid it forward remember yeah oh you're feeling it yeah yeah. I don't know your mentor. What's happening for you here? Just a moment. Of knowing how proud he would be.

Oh, my goodness. Because that was what he did. You you know that's what he taught us and um and it and i did that for my life's work oh here goes a voice yeah so what would he be proud of just that i'm teaching that to other men and teaching that to other people who are going to carry that forward. Because it's so important. It's one of the, his belief is that if you don't react to people from your gut, he would always, you know, we do these great clinical presentations. And he was going, what is your gut feeling? And he would just look at us.

Tell me about your gut. As a patient, for a patient. Yes, but he would also tell us as clinicians, what is your gut feeling as you're talking to this person? What is your gut feeling as you're telling us this story? And that he hammered us on just, and we met with him every week and reviewed all our tapes and everything. So tell me more about your relationship with him.

Like, I always knew your mentor to be Juanita. That was my second mentor that was your second and maybe we should we should also consider not in this moment but i'm saying it out loud like let's talk about mentorship because like there's a lineage here yes and i never got to meet your first mentor i did get to meet juanita is a pretty wild story that we'll get to. But tell me about him and in context of why there was so much flood of emotion here that the acknowledgements, when I acknowledged you in the book,

that he would be proud. Because he, I fleshed back onto the first time he and I worked together. Oh, okay. So that's just what happened. Yeah, he came into my office, and I got to work with him in my office. So you were the client? No, I was the owner.

I owned the clinic, and we hired him to come in and help us with the project of evaluating staff for a new treatment center. Wait a minute. Your somebody that you hired i was yeah so you didn't know him before oh no no no i he he trained me all that's what i thought okay so then finally when you when you built your clinic when i built my clinic then how many clinicians did you have there um maybe eight or ten eight or ten yeah and then we were opening a residential treatment center. Right. And so Wisconsin, Minnesota, it was in Minnesota. And so we brought him up to help evaluate and assess staff that we were going to use for the residential center.

I love this because I wouldn't, I didn't know if you were going to kind of go to a place and, and feel your way through this as well, but why would I think otherwise? That's the only way I know how to do things. Okay. So you flashback in this conversation, you flashback to this moment. You had already been mentored by him. Then you had a moment to hire him.

And then you're the therapist and he's in the client seat. No. No. Okay. He was a colleague. Colleague. he was a colleague colleague he was a colleague so i i was being he i acknowledged him as a colleague we were equals oh i thought you were doing some role play thing no no no okay no he was we were equals working together yeah right you know where i always had been his mentee yeah you know his protege and um and now we were colleagues and that was huge

you know and today we're colleagues talking all right that's what's happened that's what happened right so yeah it's like wow so it's past oh i just felt all that yeah right yeah so i had this moment with my mentor and now i have it with my mentee. So it was powerful. All of a sudden, I didn't expect it. I shouldn't say that because I knew that I was going to get to tears sometime today. But I did. So let's talk about emotion, men and emotions, before we go to mentor, mentee again. Okay.

What is your understanding of men and emotions? Most men are afraid of their emotions. Um, I think one of the gifts I have is I'm not, you know, my emotions, I'm allowing anyone to see, I've never given a speech at an event where I didn't cry. Just part of who I am. Right. And if I feel passionate about what i'm doing the emotions are going to come and i think it's okay to let people see that and uh to model that you know that men have emotions and they're okay to be seen and i've always believed that so you didn't see me fighting it no that's what i wanted to yeah no it was just like it's going and it's gonna this is this is the real thing they could cut it out you know it's cool you know it's cool right, it's going and it's going to, this is, this is after like the third month of being in training. I'm

like, there's lots of emotions when you're doing intimate work. Right. Probably if you're doing it right. And I was like, people would grab the tissues to try to hold back or, or take care of their face while they're in a, having a real honest moment. So was like i gotta get that out of there and so so i went through thousands of boxes of tissue no but my point is like i just watched you just let it flow right and i'm when i watch that i go that's what that's what being fully present with with all of your emotions looks like you're not going i'm so sorry oh my give me i'm so there's no no there's like what you don't need a tissue. You don't need to apologize. You just did it. Yep. Finding mastery is brought to you by Momentous.

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Just head to Felixixgray.com and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X G-R-A-Y.com and use the code findingmastery20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. So what does it sound like in your head when you're getting in your way? Oh, too much nonsense. It's just, you know, too many questions, too much clutter, and I'm not just getting quiet. So it's like, there's a lot of questions going on about the situation that I may be in at the moment. And I'll just say, okay, get quiet and sense what's happening here. And then. So that's how you actually work it in the moment.

It's like when you notice that you're up in your head, thinking, thinking, question, questioning, that you just, it's more of a. Take a breath. It's a breath. Yes. But you're directing your attention to sense. Yes.

So that's kind of the cue. It's like take my, get back into your sense. Okay, so signal to noise ratio, signal is sense what's happening. Noise is all of the analytics for you. Yes. Okay. So signal to noise ratio signal is sense what's happening. Noise is all of the analytics for you. Okay. All right. And then what is it more concretely? What does it sound like? Like, what are the questions or what are the statements that you're having a bit of a wrestle with in your head? Probably unimportant data that I don't need, but, you know, because I think I might, you know, um, um you know can you give me more detail about that

you know and i don't really need the detail but sometimes you know if the story is intense that the person's sharing um the detail is important you know uh and so sometimes you have to hear the detail and you i have to say to myself okay listen to the detail and I have to say to myself, okay, listen to the detail and then sense what happened to that person as they're explaining the detail to you. I see, okay. So, and then how does that practice? Let's go to God for a minute.

God is the foundation of your life. How does your relationship with God impact how you nurture somebody and how you care for somebody? Because I think he keeps it all safe. He helps me create a safe place, a safe environment. And then how do you do that for individuals? How do you create a safe space? I think I do it by just my presence with them, allowing them to be seen, honoring who they are and what they're bringing to the table,

and letting them know that this is their time and they're going to guide it. I'm not going to push an agenda. And so when you're ready, Mike, you're ready. How do you not judge and critique when you clearly saw that I was a mess? That's not my job. My job when I'm working with somebody is to hold a mirror up and say, is this who you want to be? You know, and if you say yes, okay, cool. Then that's who you're going to be. And if you say, no, that's really not who I want to be. Let's figure out how you can get to be who it is that you want to be.

Right? Who's the man that you want to be? And then how do you help people develop that sense of who they want to be? Is it just a series of questions? A series of questions, writings, writing assignments. You know, I think journaling. So many young men reveal so much more in journaling. I think the advent of email helped a lot.

I mean, I had more young men, especially college athletes who could just pour their soul out in an email. And when we met, you know, we had covered like five weeks of work in an email that we could use. So emails was a great tool, text messages. They're all phenomenal resources for most men. How would you, would you just ask them for informed consent to work over non-secure methods? Yeah. You just, yeah. Yeah.

You know, I'm gonna use this, I use email, are you comfortable with that? Yeah, right. And they're so comfortable with it, you know, I was more uncomfortable about using it than they were. Yeah, okay. So, all right, so this is awesome. Now, how does that,

so we've got kind of the style of your approach, which is to help somebody feel seen, cared for, and nurtured. And then your tactic is to non-judgmentally hold a mirror and you're working towards the person they say they want to be, okay? And then when they are, and you're working towards the person they say they want to be. And then when they say, I want to be an honest human,

and they're clearly telling lies, and they're breaking rules, and they're da-da-da, how do you square the delta between the two? Shine a light on it. And you say, you said you want to be honest, you've actually just... Yeah, is this the truth? Let's take a look at this a little closer.

Five minutes ago, you said this. Ten minutes ago, you said this. They don't match up. And in your writing, you said this. So where is the truth in between all of that? Where's the truth? Yeah. So it's really like lighting the path for them

so they can see it. You know what I'm hoping right now is that our community is listening going, yeah, I need a mentor. You know, like, I can't do this all by myself. No. It's a big insight.

Maybe you can, maybe somebody can. I know I couldn't. Yeah. And this is why I have such gratitude for you is because you did this and this was not a professional relationship. There was no money exchanged. It was a benevolent interest.

And so if you have a mentor in your life, it could be that benevolent relationship. And it also could be a therapist. It could be a psychologist. It could be a life coach. It could be lots of things. I get nervous with life coaches that are classically trained you know we can talk about that i just upset like a lot of people right now i'm sure you did yeah but i get nervous because your training is legit i mean you went to one of the great graduate programs of all time and so

especially um at during your time so your training is sound and then your your mentor broke the mold by saying forget all the tactics in training like listen they both said that actually juanita said the same thing yes okay so all right and then mirrors uh non-judgmental i got it three pillars now how does the say the philosophy you're guiding philosophy one more time my main one is that we're all teachers and all students all of the time oh i wasn't saying that one okay and the other one is when the time is right all things are released from the hidden place and brought to the light of day and so is part of your relationship with people is to help with the timing? To help them trust their timing.

Oh, that's a cool answer. To help them trust their timing. So it's not God's. It's not my timing. It's not God's timing. It's their timing. They have to learn to trust their timing. Like you did.

You had to learn to trust. And I would just say, Mike, you're not ready yet. And you hated that. You pissed me off. You absolutely hated it. I'm always ready. Don't you know? I'm trying over here. You absolutely hated it. I'm always ready. Don't you know? I'm trying over here.

Oh my God. There was a moment just to kind of like have fun. There was a moment we were in a restaurant and we're in some heated thing and I'm feeling a lot. And then it was quiet for a moment. I don't even know if you remember this. And a cup dropped. Do you remember this? No.

Oh my God. It was a cup that dropped from like you know how you stack cups up and it was like a like a cheap plastic cup you know but and so it dropped and it made this radical sound and i felt the sound and then all of a sudden my entire body flushed and you said oh what's happening like I was like, damn it. Like, it was not the sound. It was not that sound. It was something else. Yeah.

Oh, God. So the gift of being seen. And being seen and someone paying attention. Yeah. Which I didn't have. I did not have that experience. Maybe people get it. I just didn't have enough of that to know what it felt like.

Most of the men I work with have not had that experience. So working for the first time with me is the first time they're feeling seen and acknowledged and that they're seeing themselves many times. I work near an Ivy League institution. I won't mention which one. And a lot of those students were so focused on getting into that facility or institution that they lost touch with who they were, who the essence of who they were. And so that was one of the things that I, the work I did with a lot of those men was, who were all, by the way, um, is to get reconnected to who they were, you know, how do you help people work through? Cause I definitely had it, um,

a performance based identity. So the way that I was able to feel seen was to have accolades to have, you know, either those, maybe not all favorable, but to get in trouble or to, you know, do some heavy stuff in the surf culture or because it wasn't grades, you know, so. I do. So, you know, it might be a nice little relief moment

for people in the community is like, I didn't have goals. I didn't have a vision. I didn't have a path. I didn't have an idea. When we started talking, you didn't, but you got all those. Yeah, I did. Yeah? Yeah, they happened without anyone giving them to me.

Like you just kept asking these ridiculously hard questions that made me feel. And you kept writing. And I kept writing. And I kept writing. And so then the idea is you don't have to have it all buttoned up. No. And I wasn't ready. Well, the reality is you were ready. What does that mean?

You would have never kept coming and talking to me if you weren't ready. Oh, there you go. You did it on your own. Yeah. I mean, nobody would have made you come over with your me if you weren't ready. Oh, there you go. You did it on your own. Yeah. I mean, nobody would have made you come over with your dog to my house and show me your writings. The dog was the excuse. That was the excuse, you know. But you always had your writings with you.

Oh, yeah, I have. Oh, let me go get them. Let me go get them. They're in the car. I was like, okay. All right. So back to the philosophy. Share your second grounding philosophy. We are all teachers and we're all students all of the philosophy. Share your second grounding philosophy.

We are all teachers and we're all students all of the time. So when you say that to somebody, it immediately equalizes the playing field. You have something to teach me. I have something to teach you. And we both have to pay attention here. That's very cool. I felt that from you. Yeah.

Even though I didn't know what I had to offer, but I felt like you were interested in something. And so I'm not sure what I would have been teaching you at that age. Always. I always learn something from people. Yeah. That's really cool. You just have to look for it. And they're there.

The lessons are there. What are you trying to figure out in your life? What am I trying to figure out now? Yeah. Well, the last two years was learning how to just relax and not have a 17, 15 hour day, you know, leaving the house at quarter seven, quarter six in the morning, coming home eight o'clock at night, you know, making dinner and, you know, having this home that you basically came in and out of and showered and left.

So really learning to appreciate what I had created and creating this space that was what, for me, I've created a space that's very comforting, healing, grounding. And that was really a goal for me when I started retirement is to really create this home that when people walked in, they immediately went, and I've done that. And, uh, and, uh, and so that I could do that, like, because the first, you know, I would say first five months of retirement, it's like, wait a minute, I should be doing something. You know, I don't have like my calendars empty. And, you know, did you have a performance-based identity?

I don't know if it was performance-based. I was just so busy. I don't think I was, I was just going from thing to thing. So you would always call out, Mike, you need to recover. You need to recover. You need to recover. But you really couldn't teach me that because you were not recovering. Oh, I always spent time recovering on the weekends. Weekends were my recovery time

yeah right that's why i always lived near the water because i don't feel like i learned recovery from you you did not no no i don't you you were pretty good at recovery oh i i feel like i'm just on oh yeah well now yeah no like the whole time when we first met you weren't always on yeah well i was always surfing or skateboarding. Yeah, right. Yeah, so do you feel like you've got your arms around how to recover? Yes, I really feel like I'm good at that. And that was part of this month being out here was just feeling nurtured by my group of friends because my closest group of friends all live here in Redondo.

So it's just life-giving. For me coming here, it's life-giving. And creating the space at home and really, just becoming so connected to nature in my own home and yard and by the sea. You were married at a relatively young age? 25. Yeah, relatively young. that's when i got married

too yeah 25 and then we were together 10 10 11 years yeah and then what was the reason it ended oh we just grew apart and then a person that is so committed to relationships like how come not another one oh i've tried many times it's just nothing is um you know there's been nothing that has uh presented itself in life that has had me wanting to put the kind of energy in a relationship requires oh interesting yeah you have to be committed to someone who that you really want to invest and work. Because relationships are work. And I haven't found that person yet.

And that's okay. If I do, I do. If I don't, I don't. Oh, you're still open to that? Yeah, it happens. It happens. Yeah, I wouldn't rule it out. You might get a lot of calls after this call.

I don't think so. I didn't know that part of it. I knew that you wrote separated and like i didn't quite know why you didn't get in another relationship oh yeah you know not for lack of trying for a while and then you just go this is just too much work lisa and i went through my wife and i went through a really rough patch about seven years in and we did some deep work and the therapist asked us which you were there front row for all of this and the therapist said okay mike you know you got work to do now i was like yeah i know she turns to lisa and says you know you got work to do

too and she goes yeah i know she says okay here's question. Do you want to do the work with someone else or with each other? I was like, oh my God, that's the question. That is the question, right? And I waited for her to answer, only because I knew my answer, but I didn't want to influence her. I wanted her to not be influenced.

And it was one of the most vulnerable moments of our relationship because it felt like an eternity because if she was gonna say i want to do the work with someone else or i want to do the work by myself i mean it's so happy she said with you mike you know like she did it worked but yeah we've had the three of us have had some pretty amazing conversations i mean most of those were on the, but yeah. Oh, we've had, the three of us have had some pretty amazing conversations. I mean, most of those were on the phone, but during that period. Yeah.

Thank you for that. Like it just, the context that you had is kind of the gift of just you knowing me for so long. But for folks that don't have that gift of a mentor, what, I think there's lots of people I know that have never had a mentor. And they feel like it's too late, because they're 50, they're 65, or they're 40,

and it's like too late to have a mentor. I'm now the elder. What do you say to that? It's never too late to have a mentor. There are people out there who are willing and able to do that for you, but you have to pay attention and look. That's how I met my second mentor was Juanita. And I wasn't out there mentor hunting.

She just presented herself through a mutual friend, Jim Gunther, and we met and we hit it off right away. So I think mentors are available and are out there for people. If you're open to the idea of the work and being vulnerable with somebody and inviting someone into your life and into your space, I think there's a lot of people who are out there willing to be mentors both men and women what is the criteria if you will because you're not letting just somebody walk in your life and no like juanita was radically wise amazingly wise like and trained and classically trained yes yeah i mean yeah she had a phd and and so for me she was a perfect

metric because she was really trained in the spirituality world and connection with god so that's what i was looking for at the time and so she was perfect right but you have to look at what it is that you need at this point in your life you know is it career mentoring is it life you know living mentoring you know and then seeing who and what is available to be a next door neighbor. It could be a relative. It could be an old teacher, you know, our lives are so different. Like we've had similar in some respects, very similar, meaning where, where the craft is the same, but the way you've lived your life and the way I've lived my life is so different. So you're, so what you're saying is like, but the commonality, the common thread is that

I wasn't looking for you to be a mentor. No. Right. And were you looking to mentor someone? No. So how did, I mean, how does this work? It just happens. Why do you want to be a mentor? Why do I like it?

Yeah. I think I enjoy it because it's an opportunity to help someone grow. But that's also your profession. Yeah. So why not say, Mike, come to the office? Well, there are some people I would say, you know, come and see me in the office. And there's other people that, and it's usually friends kids that i've gotten into a mentoring relationship yeah you know your time it was i had worked with your mom and i had worked

with this other young man's dad and so i would seem both of you were coming to the house all the time yeah which i didn't know the other person no you never did yeah met them and um and um and so that's just they were they just happened because i would never charge a friend yeah you know and it was more natural just to you know so if someone's listening they're like man i would love to have that type of felt seen experience um cared for and nurtured and held a mirror of truth up, how would they go about, I have no idea how to navigate this. That's why I'm standing.

Yeah, I mean, they can look for a mentor, they could look for a life coach, because I do that, but that is something I charge for, right? And then there's mentoring. I mean, there has been some life coaching opportunities that I do charge people for. And there are some that have just happened kind of organically,

like yours did and like the other gentlemen's did. Well, I would say like if somebody, I know you're not spending, I know it's hard to get your time. But if there's folks in our community, are you taking folks on right now? Yes, I do. I will take some people on a limited basis. And I do a screening kind of interview

and then get a sense if there is a connection there. I'm very selective about who I choose to work with at this point in my life. So it has to be somebody who's willing to do the work and not all caught up in asking questions about technique and all that stuff, because it's like, let's just do the work and then we'll see where it's gonna go.

The work is where it's at. The work is where it's at. Let's sit down and see where we go, okay? I think you do the same thing. Yeah, same exact thing. Okay, what do you hope the next generation gets right? That's a tough question. I'm very worried about the next generation of clinicians and therapists because they're so connected to their techniques that they've lost sight of the person. And that really concerns me.

That scares me actually. But as a society, I don't know. I think our society is really going through some challenging times right now. And I would hope that we could find a peaceful place, but I'm not sure. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't But I'm not sure. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine.

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checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. What does it mean to be a good son? What does it mean to be a good son? Wow, that's a tough question. That probably means different things at different times in your life. So being present to my parents was important. That's why I moved back to New Jersey because they were getting older. That's why I asked because you actually walked the walk there. Yeah, I did. And as my mom was dying, the last year of her life was very important for me to be present to her as much as possible. So being present to her became primary in my life and my work and all that became secondary.

And I was going to walk with her through the that final year of her life and i'm very glad i did that um you know with my dad he's 92 now and um he still kicking and character and keeps us laughing and keeps everybody challenged and so um just being present talk i talk to him every day, a couple times a day usually. And when I'm out there, I see him every couple weeks at least, trying to get him to come down to my place. He likes being at my house. So I just think being present for them and supporting them in the ways that they need it, because they supported me so much when I was younger.

I just wanted to be present, you know, with my mom I knew I could nurture her into the next place of, you know, and not make her, so that she wasn't scared of dying. And with my dad, you know, just helping him stay focused on, you know, really living and continuing to being the character that he is dad you know just helping him stay focused on you know really living and continuing to being the character that he is you know it sounds like nurturing caring it's basically it's basically yeah what's the difference between caring and nurturing

for me nurturing is more encompassing you know it's like uh i could care about you um as a fellow human being nurturing um it's i'm looking at the total person and i i'm going to be a force in your life and and be there in a way that you may need me to be at some point and let you know that i can be there for you if i care about somebody i may not always be be present to take on a nurturing role, which I see as larger and more encompassing. I get it. What did Juanita teach you? What did you learn from Juanita?

How to listen to God, basically. So God talks. Yep, how to listen to God, how to be quiet. How do you hear God? I get quiet and I pray and I just listen. I just...

Is it a voice? Is it a feeling? It's a sense. It's a sense. It's a sense for me. And it's a sense for me. And then just try to get a sense of you know she always told me you'll know when you're hearing or sensing his presence and you'll know when it's you're in light

and he goes and she knows you when you're encountering darkness and there's sometimes you're going to because you're a light bearer you're going to be brought into darkness to help bring light and there's going to be brought into darkness to help bring light. And there's going to be times when it's time to get out of the darkness because there's no amount of light that's going to make that situation better. And she taught me that. That when it's time to leave, it's time to leave. And I've learned that lesson well. Because you can get burned if you don't.

Yeah, it's pretty scary actually. Yeah, it's pretty scary. Yeah. Is the world dangerous or safe? No, you don't yeah it's pretty scary actually yeah it's pretty scary yeah yeah is the world dangerous or safe no i don't believe so i think it's um wait wait i said dangerous or safe i don't know if it's either i think it's both at same time times i think it's the same at some time i mean there's a lot of danger in the world um right now probably more so than i've seen in my life um the the animosity and the vitriol right now in this world is just at a level i've never seen it and that scares me um and safe if you surround yourself you know when i'm in redondo, I feel very safe because I have a really solid community here. Very solid. We're all based in the same spiritual sense.

And so I feel very safe and everybody is very in tune with each other. And so that feels very safe. So how do you listen? She taught you how to listen? How do you do that? Get quiet. Get quiet. And then what do you do? She taught you how to listen? How do you do that? Get quiet. You're quiet. And then what do you do to get quiet?

Sit. Sit. You sound like Thich Nhat Hanh. I'll tell you, I'm asking this. It's not rocket science, right? And then when you notice the noise in your own head, what do you do with it? Just let it go.

You just say that, let it go you just say that let it go let it go and you return back to what quiet so are you listening breathing breathing i've listened to my breathing yeah the it's an ancient practice it's this is not something that's new here something new yeah i've learned in this past year that listening to the birds really helps you get quiet. Yeah, it is a single point meditation. So I've been practicing meditation for a long time. And where Lisa and I were at a, I think it was a three or five,

I think it was a three day retreat, like a mindfulness training or retreat, and on day two, and noble silence. And then, but at the end of day two, we broke silence to process. And I don't know why he broke silence. This was with Jon Kabat-Zinn, which is amazing human. And so he made a call to break silence,

and everyone was like, okay. And so we're just kind of break silence and everyone's like okay and so and so just kind of going around how's it going and you know I say like I'm sitting and I want to stand up and when I'm standing up

and doing walking meditation I just want to sit down you know he's like just looking at me like you know you're working okay we get over to my wife

and she goes I heard God and I was like damn it I've been listening for a long fucking time. Like, where is God? And so honestly, I don't know. I don't know what this sounds like or what it feels. I think I have a sense of what it feels like, but I don't have a reference point like to someone

that, yeah, oh, you're in it. That's it. So, so I don't know. You'll know when you're there oh and so i you're not ready yet damn it so john john cabot's in acid so um and what happened and she said all i heard was it's all okay and so we've got a little we've got some artwork that represents it in our houses now as well as a reminder for that moment. Is it rare? Because it was, I don't know for me, but do you have it every day? I don't think it's rare. I don't think it's rare.

Because in preparing to come here, and I was at the water, I was writing notes and reading, and then all of a sudden I just said, okay, just be quiet, you know? And. But I know that feeling. I know a sense of peace. And I have a sense of peace, but then I heard it's okay.

You know, this stuff, it's like, just let it be, you know? You brought a notepad in. Only one other person's brought a notepad in. This is like. This is like episode 400 something. A notebook. Good old fashioned. What did you bring this in for?

It's like a little put some notes down in it. I was taking some notes at the beach today and my niece was giving me such a hard time. She goes, everyone goes in with laptops and you're going to go in with a marble top. Oh God. everyone goes in with laptops, and you're going to go in with a marble. No one comes in with anything. With a marble top.

Oh, God. A marble pad that you had in Catholic school. And I was like, yeah, well, you know, I can't remember everything anymore. So I wrote some notes down in case I needed to reflect. How does your memory work now? It works so much better now that I am not working 14, 15 hours a day. And I write a lot of things down.

And I've been writing on my phone and on my laptop. Not my laptop, my desktop. I have a desktop too, which she said nobody has a desktop. Nobody has a desktop anymore. She said, Uncle, when you go home, you have to go buy a laptop. I said, well, I have one, but it's just outdated. No, it's time. All right, so kind of rounding third base here,

like what would you say your purpose is? I'm here to serve. I mean, that's just basically I know that's what I've been called to and that's what I'm comfortable doing. Whether I'm getting paid for where i'm it's you know happened organically and it's free you know so if you could sit with a true master dead or alive um who would you want to sit with where would you want to sit with him and if you only had one question what would you want to ask christ and what do you see as my purpose here you would to verify like you don't know like well i i trust that i know but i would want him to like say hey you know i think you're doing a good job or

you know you've um you're doing what i'm asking you to do i would want to be sitting by the water with christ and just saying so i've gotten this have i gotten it is that what you said have i gotten it am i doing it is this it yeah oh that's interesting yeah i just think christ would be you know the embodiment of the the trinity you know God the Holy Spirit and Christ you know he is in a human form so I would I guess I go there of all the 11 world religions why Christianity for you it was what I was raised in and I guess I didn't really challenge it I explored different faiths in the Christian world, but I trust that I'm Christian and that's what feels good for me. Okay, cool.

And then, so I've got some quick hits for you. Okay. Okay. And before we get into the rapid kind of quick hits here, do you remember the first time I met Juanita? You kind of juggled my memory earlier, but we were at her house. It was like a moment where you wanted us to meet.

Me meeting your mentor was like a moment. And I was there with Lisa. Right, I remember that. It was the home you would exact, I would have imagined she lived in. She was older at the age i think older i'm 80 top of the 80s somewhere in there she was just about 80 yeah oh she wasn't 80 yet when we met she had just turned 80 okay and her husband had just passed and she had just recreated that space so that was hers yeah no that's right okay so Okay, so we came in and it was kind of,

we're having a moment and- Probably tea. Yeah, so she made me tea. Of course. And then she asked me, she kind of looked at you and she's like, okay, so we knew it was happening. And she says, so tell me who you are. Now I remember.

Yeah, and I like like well um okay uh and i was like where do i start i would imagine yeah and and i remember her kind of looking at you not with disappointment but like he's not ready yet yeah he's not ready i felt so like i just let you down and I was like, oh my God, what is happening here? And you know, she kind of looked at me like, maybe one day you'll be ready to know who you are. I was like, oh wow. I just, I like vividly remember that experience of like, I've got a lot more work to do. And she- But you always paid attention to that. When I told it to you or she made you sense it or feel it, you paid attention and that challenged you.

I did like the challenge. Yeah, of course. You always liked the challenge. Yeah. Yeah, that was a cool moment for me. That's who you are today. It's because you like the challenge. I never wanted to work with professional athletes.

I don't know if you knew that. It was never a guiding force for me i wanted to work with people that were as obsessed and i know the word is not necessarily a healthy word but that was my early thinking as obsessed about the thing that i am the thing that whatever thing they are and i didn't have a tolerance at that time for people that weren't almost crazy to figure something out. I hope I'm different now, but that's the challenge part of me. Okay, quick hits here.

I don't know what that means, but okay. I'll say a thought stem and then you answer it in one or two words. Okay. It all comes down to. God. Living the good life comes down to. God. Living the good life is marked by. Peace.

Success is. Calm. The key to success is. God. I am. Here. My vision is. To continue to be a healer.

Relationships are? Challenging. Money is? Necessary. The thing that you are missing deeply is? My mom. I didn't know that was coming. I didn't either.

I didn't know that was coming. You're still grieving. Yeah. What would you title this episode? Chatter. Chatter with Mike and Gary. Chatter. What did we not cover?

I can't imagine anyone would want to listen to this. Yeah. I loved every part of it. Did you really? Yeah. Oh, cool. What did we cover or what did we miss that you were maybe thinking we would talk about? Why this was important to you to have this discussion.

One, to honor you, to have the chance to know you in a different way. We have obviously loads of conversations, but none publicly like this. So it's just a different dimension that I thought would be meaningful. And it's just the idea that I'm a student. And so what a gift to be able to keep learning and to learn from you in a different way.

Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I don't think you've gotten to see me be emotional before. Yeah. That's such a gift. Yeah.

Play it forward. Play it forward. Play it forward. That's what I am. So I had that moment with my son. I cry plenty. But my son had never seen me cry. It was after I did that ultra and I was a disaster. And I arrived on the beach, like fell into, he was like eight or 10,

fell into my wife's arms. They came running out to kind of greet me and I was just done with hallucinations and three hours longer than it was supposed to be and all the worry they had and da, da, da. And I just kind of fall into their arms and completely let go of anything I had left. And so Grace was like, I could sense he was just like,

okay, okay, that's cool, okay. Because he cries a bunch at a 10-year-old kid. And he was waiting for me to get out of the shower and um and so i'm changed and dried off i turned the corner and he's waiting there and he says um dad he's still there and i knew i knew what you know what he was going to ask. And he said, are you okay? I said, why do you ask? And he said, I've never seen you cry like that. And I said, yeah, I'm really good. I said, what was that like for you?

He says, I felt normal, Dad. How beautiful. What a beautiful interchange. That's a gift. That was a gift to cap off that experience. Totally. That was awesome. I feel it right now. That's a gift. Yeah. That was a gift to cap off that experience. Oh, totally. That was awesome. I feel it right now.

That's a beautiful story. Yeah. What do you hope that I get from you? Well, I think you got it, you know, inside out. Inside out. To commit to working from the inside out. From the inside out, yeah. Yeah. That is the first rule of mastery.

The first rule of mastery as I'm reading this. I was like, damn, he put it in a book. Oh my God. That is so good. So it was good. Yeah. You know, it's,

it's, I could see as I'm reading it that there's moments of discussions that we've had. Yeah. Which is very cool. It's very fun. It's very cool,

you know. And then I would flash in moments of those discussions with Dr. Lustig or Juanita, Dr. Miller is her professional name. But, and it was just very cool to see because both of them believe that so strongly. Gary, this will fall far below what it means, but when I say thank you. thank you. I mean it.

Cool. This was fun. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify.

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