Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - A Masterclass On Honesty, Courage and Perseverance | Charlie Webster

Episode Date: March 29, 2023

Broadcaster, journalist and endurance athlete Charlie Webster details her near death experience, her process of post-traumatic growth, and how it shaped her perspective on perseverance, mental health and the motivation to keep pushing forward.Charlie is incredible, and her body of work is… extensive, to say the least. She was the first woman to host a televised Boxing World Heavyweight Title Fight, has hosted or produced at least seven different podcasts, created a TV documentary for BBC, has run 14 marathons and competed in 3 ironman triathlons – and that is just scratching the surface of her incredible life story. In 2016, Charlie was put on life support and given 24 hours to live. Charlie pushes the edges in everything she does. She understands deep pain, and how to work with it, which is one of the reasons I wanted to have her on. We dive right in to explore what drives her. What is she working towards? And how does she take care of herself amidst a life of constant “doing” and high achievement? As you’ll hear in this conversation, Charlie is so much more than her accomplishments. Her honesty is striking, she’s navigated her life with incredible perseverance, and I think we all have something to learn from her journey of becoming._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Okay, welcome back or welcome to the finding mastery podcast i'm your host dr michael gervais by trade and training a high performance psychologist and i am super excited to sit down with charlie webster for this week's conversation charlie is incredible she understands deep pain and more importantly how to work with. And that's why I wanted to have her on. Professionally, her work spans across broadcasting, journalism, and she's a writer, documentarian, and endurance athlete. Her body of work is extensive to say the least. She pushes on the edges in everything she does. In 2016, she was put on life support and given 24 hours to live. We dive right in to explore what drives her, what is she working towards, and how does she take care of herself

amidst a life of constant doing and high achievement. And I know that you can relate to that tension too. So as you'll hear in this conversation, Charlie is so much more than her accomplishments. Her honesty is striking and she's navigated her life with incredible perseverance. And I think we all have something to learn from her journey of becoming. And if you're enjoying this podcast and haven't already, just a quick reminder to hit the subscribe or follow button and to drop us a review wherever you're listening. It is the easiest and zero cost and to drop us a review wherever you're listening. It is the easiest and zero cost way to support the show. So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Charlie Webster. Okay, Charlie, I need to read this to set the scene because of

your history and your breath. So I want to get this piece right here. You are the first woman to host a televised boxing world heavyweight championship title fight you have hosted and produced at least seven different podcasts you've created a tv documentary for bbc you had a serious near-death experience it's like a check check check yes you run you've run 14 marathons oh i think i might have done 15 15 yeah i did one in november so i think that needs to be added there we go to the list three ironman triathletes yeah they're triathlons okay you're currently an svp for lions gate my goodness and somehow i feel like i'm just scratching the surface with that list. Yeah, that is definitely the surface.

It's kind of weird as well because I can be a little bit funny when people read achievements. I need to either make a joke, which I think I had to do about the checklist. And then sometimes maybe it's an English thing. I won't feel embarrassed about the and because I don't see myself as that I just see myself as just me and haven't really don't really stop sometimes I'm trying to get better at it to actually go oh yeah I did that okay so there's a lot and you've been doing a lot for a long time and what I hear you saying is like okay there's a little and you've been doing a lot for a long time. And what I hear you saying is like, okay, there's a little bit of like an, almost an embarrassment or something.

I don't know if that's the right word. I introduced that word, but I did say embarrassed. You did say that. Okay. But I shouldn't be. So for anybody listening, you should never be embarrassed about what you've done.

But I understand what you're talking about. It's a, it's a little weird. Right. And at the same time, you know, I'm fascinated by, I want to know like where you're coming from.

I want to know what's driving this big motor that you have. So let's just pause there. Where are you coming from, from the inside out? That's a big question. How long have we got? I think it's changed over time. So if I look back now, I think it's not a coincidence that I went into a very originally male-dominated industry, an industry that was very, very hard to get into, but one that did give you a voice. So I think what drove me isn't the same now.

So what drove me originally, I think, was what what drove me originally I think was feeling like I didn't have a voice feeling like people coming from what I come from don't get those opportunities people like me don't get to experience those things and I think that was a huge driver in a good and a bad way though because it meant that i never let up and and nothing was ever enough because it was coming from a place of not being good enough whereas now wait before we go to okay people like me can you finish that thought? People that weren't brought up privileged, I feel like my situation's changed now. People that come from broken families, that had no way of getting into any opportunity, whether it be financially or emotionally or through connection. And I was taught from a young age that I was the people like me.

So that was a message that I was taught from a very young age that I've had to rewire and occasionally I still have to do that but this is not the I'm not talking about imposter syndrome that's entirely different this is this is like being and I'm sure many people can relate being taught from a young age well and that no that's not for you you know you don't deserve that or at school um I went to a school where my mum had gone to that school and she got pregnant with me at that school she was still in school and um I was also not seen as one of the kids that should be encouraged so then immediately I was getting that that messaging even in development at a young age so it's very different from imposter i'm talking about sure yeah this is it feels far deeper well

yeah and it's all you know so you don't know anything different what's it like just the last three minutes talking about this i think i wouldn't have done that, say, maybe six, seven years ago. You wouldn't have spoken? What I've just said. I would have given a different answer. Oh, there we go. And it feels slightly vulnerable. And then I listen.

I almost tend to check myself as I hear my voice, how deep I should go and what i should really reveal um is that for you or for like both what you what you don't want others to know about both it's both yeah and for the people involved in my life too how much you don't want them to know no no that i don't want them to feel bad you don't want them to feel bad yeah that I don't want them to feel bad that you don't want them to feel bad yeah I mean I just said my mom had me pregnant at school and I'm really proud of her but I don't want her to feel bad that I felt that I've just mentioned that but I'm proud because you know I'm here and she's still here I really recognize and respect that

um I do I love my parents and they know, they made plenty of mistakes too. And I feel like if I don't tell my story, my unique story, and by the way, it's different than theirs. We could be in the same room, my parents and myself, and have a completely different experience. And so I don't want them to ever feel, and I know, hey mom, hey dad, how you doing? I don't want them to feel feel, and I know, hey mom, hey dad, how you doing? I don't want them to feel badly about anything. So they do listen then. Oh yeah.

What's up guys. And so I don't want them to ever feel badly. I love them. And at the same time, there's part of my family experience for me, there was pain. And so navigating that I think is that you that you said it beautifully and delicately that there's a governor or there's a monitor that you're trying to take care of other people and yourself as you're deciding what to share. Yeah, and I think that's also part of, you know, we're sat here to open some things up. And that is definitely who I am sometimes to an extreme where I would prioritize other people's feelings over my own. Um, so I definitely do check those. And it's interesting you said about that, about your own family, because, because you're there, their history is partly your history,

but it's a different history and you're entitled to your own. And that's really important to remember in families, I think. Not that I'm coaching you or own. And that's really important to remember in families, I think. Not that I'm coaching you or anything. Because sometimes I think parents especially have their own guilt and that can sometimes be projected onto you or onto children. Okay. No one does it alone. And I want to share a couple of sponsors that are making this show possible. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships,

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but for energy and focus, recovery for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. And now back to the conversation. Yeah. One of the coolest things my dad said is, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to make mistakes, you know, and I'm trying my best and I was like oh that's cool I can get down with that that's very honest yeah and then I had a mentor of mine say um on the same thread he said he said Mike you're gonna make mistakes too I just wonder if you're

gonna make the same mistakes I was like ah there we go like just make new mistakes right and don't repeat the same family same patterns yeah right exactly so um nobody gets to this world without trauma big t or little t we all have trauma um you've been open and you've talked about yours which is remarkably rare and unfortunately rare um is there any contour that you can give to or that you'd like to give to the traumas that you've experienced that have helped shaped who you are now? I'm going to give a list. Sorry, I shouldn't laugh at that today. It's just, and I'm not making light of it. It's just, um, oh, you got to laugh sometimes, right? Um, well, do you want me to start from the beginning?

Yeah. Wherever you want to go with it. You know what? I'll start more reason. So I... As in today? As in, yeah, today. No trauma today. It's been very traumatic when I first walked in this door and got greeted by the most delightful

dog ever, which is very lovely, who sat right next to me and giving me lots of love um the most recent being a big trauma I'd say was six and a bit years ago now six and a half years ago um when I nearly lost my life obviously that's a very big trauma um because so often we talk about the physical but to me it's the emotional effects of things that are physical so losing your life was very physical right only losing my life was physical I was treated by doctors I was in intensive care and for a long time I was in a coma and so it's really serious and but then you've got to pick up the pieces afterwards. So to me, that's where a lot of the trauma comes from, is trying to work out what your life is after going through something like that. Is that an insight that you generated?

Yeah. Yeah. You're right on about the mischaracterization of PTSD. Yeah. The event itself isn't the thing that's traumatic. And I say that in a way because I don't want to lack some sense. I don't want to lack any sensitivity here to trauma, but it's the way that you make sense of it. This is why you and I could go through the same exact

car crash, let's say, and life-threatening to both of us. We both make it. And I come completely traumatized by it. And you come through like, wow, I'm really grateful. Like we can have the same experience. It's the meaning making around it that, um, PTSD is actually better characterized by a restructuring to avoid re-trauma. Can I also point out that I do agree with you? Do you? Yeah. Yeah. But I've got a but. Yeah, please. it's also about access to help so we could go through the same experience and you might get access to help and i don't and i think that's really important to put out there because it's helping like community or like professionals community um by your friends and family but also professionals because i do really believe that yeah i i know what you're saying

because everybody goes through something different but we all have the same emotions at the end of the day and I don't believe for a second that you can go through a big trauma and be totally fine you might have a different perspective so I do think it's important to work through trauma and process it and a lot of that is down to whether you get support or not so i think that that's also something i would recommend oh everybody yeah i highly recommend have you heard of post-traumatic growth yes as an as a potential pathway yeah that's me that is you right yeah yeah yes i have yeah yeah and i think i think without even realizing that's what I've been doing, but I did need help to work through a lot of unprocessed trauma.

Amazing. A lot of unprocessed trauma. Yeah. Okay, so you said there's more. Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah, I mean, yes. And actually, interestingly, what happened to me when I nearly lost my life and when I was in a coma brought up a lot of the unprocessed trauma that has happened to me

because the way I used to deal with trauma, make sure, making sure I point out that I didn't know it was trauma because a lot of the time we don't even know it's trauma and we downplay trauma you mentioned big t little t but a little t can be also as as damaging as a big thousand t and i think we we often don't even recognize and part of trauma is we go into cope we go into coping mechanisms and we don't even realize that it's not normal, what's going on. And I think I definitely did that. It was just my life and it was just the way that it was. And actually I probably blamed myself and thought it was something that was wrong with me for the reason why, I don't know, maybe I behaved in a certain way sometimes, or maybe I didn't feel like normal like everyone else and I you know I'm saying normal isn't just a way to just semantics as a way to describe something um so yeah it was interesting

that that I think that totally stripped me raw when I was ill um because I didn't have any other way of coping because I was lying in a hospital bed right so I couldn't go and do the many things that I did to to cope or to block out emotions what were some of those some of the things that I coped yeah I heard self-critical yeah so yeah like for me it's more like a minimizing I think there was a minimizing but also a blame even though and i think that's very common for people i've been and that are survivors of certain things or victims and that you can somehow feel that it was partly your fault or that there was i don't know an element of personalization to it and one thing i realized is that it's not and especially with abuse which is my other trauma um that you feel that it's very much about you because you're you're there's

something wrong with you and that's what happened to you but actually abusers every every type of abuse I've ever seen or abusers they they've always had more than one victim. And it's because it's about their behavior. But as a victim, you can very much feel like it was because you weren't enough. I love that insight. How is it talking about this now? I don't think I'll ever be comfortable talking about it. And I think that that's understandable and normal.

But I think that I, it's interesting because I've shifted so much because I would never talk about it. And I didn't for a long time. Like I hid it for a long time and wouldn't talk about it at all. Which is one of the coping mechanisms. Yeah, exactly. And it's crazy because I look at myself now and I'm like, oh. Because I used to hate being vulnerable and I was very good at laughing. I mean, I'm smiling now, right?

And I'm talking about something serious and I'm very good at laughing about it or making a joke or deflecting or asking the other person a question or changing the subject and and and sometimes I used to get people not on a professional level much more on a friend level um or an intimate friend level um say to me that I don't know I can be you can feel like you know me but don't know anything because I was just very good at at being very personable but at the same time not really revealing anything and I sometimes catch that in myself now and it's not necessarily how I want to be because it means that you can't make strong connections um but you asked me how it feels now i think that you know in my opinion

going through any trauma is always going to trigger something when you talk about it yeah that's why that's why i asked just yeah like there's i just want you to know you're totally in control if you want to press pause or use one of the nice coping strategies that you've developed we can i go for a quick run yeah that's what i do i'll be back guys in 10 minutes i'm just gonna go and run around the block yeah and then i'll be fine so for me like your courage to talk about it is noted and the courage is to be, which is remarkable because it's dangerous. And at the same time, if you don't entertain those deeper waters, the experience that you're in now, we never really know how far we can go. So you're doing something that I'm like, oh, this is so good. Like, and good for you maybe in this moment, great for me in this moment to watch

someone you work and to choose well the words and to be able to take care of yourself throughout it. And the scores of people that are listening to you going, wow, I don't know if I could do that. What's the most insidious part of trauma for you um after yeah so because yeah that's a really good question actually it's i've thought a lot about this and because i've done a lot of work and i've had to do a lot of work and it's it's what you're then left with um which is why i often talk about the fact that we don't talk about the aftermath because it'd be interesting to see what you think about this because um even in grief i think this is the same so whenever we if we lose somebody the support is always there during the moment

say like the actual incident the death the, and then you're just left afterwards. And how are you supposed to deal with that? And the same with, I was hospitalized and I'm sure many people listening have also been in situations where they were hospitalized for whatever reason. Um, you know, mine was intensive care. Um, I got tropical diseases and left me in a coma um whereas you know some people might be dealing with with cancer um and the support often is there when you're going through chemotherapy or whether you know when i was in intensive care everybody was there and then when you come out of it and you're like okay now now what and i to me, that's the hardest part of it. It shows up in other events as well that are not traumatic,

like the Olympics. People go to the Olympics, they gear their whole life up towards it. They make it to the games. Let's say they have a great showing. Let's say they even get on the podium. Let's say they even get a gold medal. That's the thing that they've been working towards their whole life is show up in the right way, have their best experience. And then, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. You know who it reminds me of? Tyson Fury. A hundred percent. When he won the world title fight, that's when he, that's when he hit his lowest. And that's when he had his most problems with depression and um drug misuse and yeah i say when the circus leaves town pay attention because

the grass is trampled trash cans are overflowed it's a bit of a disaster right so that's what happens after post-event trauma and or even great celebration. There's a bit of a vacuum. But I love your insight, which is you had a near-death experience in a coma. You were stripped from the normal coping skills. And just to be very clear, I'm in awe of people's coping skills. And I know as a psychologist, I think psychology has done a little bit of a bad number on coping skills or not coping skills, but coping mechanisms, because we're supposed to, we're supposed to shed our mechanisms to be authentically ourselves. And I go, no, like if you know what your mechanisms are and you've been able to create them at age three or

13 or whatever, whenever I I and you started to create mechanisms to deal better with life, those are awesome until they're not right until they get in the way that, that rub and that tension between the growth arc that you want to have and the protection that you feel that you need. It's that tension that is a beautiful tension. So I love coping skills. So I want to point out a few things about what you just said um and i'd be interested in your opinion because i did go and see a psychologist um and that's exactly the problem i had because i started to notice my coping mechanisms and then i had a real battle because I felt like they were such a driver of me and a part of me that I felt like if I get rid of them then who am I and what's my identity and

it's fascinating that you've just pointed that out because that's exactly what I went through yeah and it's that's scary it's like the lobster that's like I want I want a bigger shell I'm growing and then but to find the bigger shell is one part. And then to make the decision to shed your shell, be vulnerable on the ocean floor, scurry into the new one and, you know, and it feels too big. It's like wearing your parents' shoes or something. Like it doesn't quite fit the new shell because it's oversized. But that mechanism is, well, I don't think most people experience what you're talking about right now.

I think most people, this is unfortunate that I think this way about humanity, play it safe and small. But you know what? Go ahead. That's going to take us now down another thing because safe and small is what scares me and what always scared me. So work that one out. And I still have a little bit of that problem because when it's a, a dearth of support, a lack of support thereafter. You couldn't access your coping skills, who I think are physical. I think that that was part of your physical.

And then using your voice. It was those two. Yeah. Yeah. Which. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, documentaries.

Yeah. Multiple podcasts. You know, right. Work and physical. Work and physical. Work and physical. Those two things. Right. Which is like, okay. The thread is actually quite easy because one of the, for me, one of the most insidious parts of abuse is that the other person, whether it's physical, sexual, emotional, mental, I'm agnostic to the actual form, is that the other person is not valued. They're not seen. They are the whips end of the experience and it's to serve the abuser.

So the abused person, the victim, to use the word you had earlier, they don't matter. They didn't matter. And as soon as that gets internalized for you, you're like, bullshit, I do matter. And now I'm not going back to that type of feeling. And so you've got this incredible power about you that to express the physical and the mental through like the way that you've conducted your life in front of a microphone so it makes perfect sense and it's awesome thank you thank you thanks very much for that yeah yeah and it is i don't think it's anything just new to you you knew yeah i can't yeah i was interested though on what your take was what did you hope i was going to say i didn't i just was interested you're open yeah i didn't i

yeah i feel quite open i like to i like to always hear other people's opinions and learn because it helps me grow um and i'm fascinated by it because it sounds so weird what i'm about to say but I am I do analyze sometimes what I've done because I find it interesting to learn more about myself and how I have coped in those situations and I feel like for me sometimes to cope with some of the things that have happened to me I want to try and make them do some good so if I can learn from it and see what I've done, then hopefully I can then impart that. And hopefully in some way, even if it's a really small way, it can help somebody else because I would never want anybody to go through some of the things I've been through and feel alone after. The alone after. Yeah. Both, right? Yeah. Okay.

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What I want to say is um you're you're doing it by putting words to it that's the power and you're creating this amazing air cover because there's so many folks that are like well if she's done it maybe i can do it and you know like because i think that's what i needed so maybe that's where it comes from just when you said that i was like oh because that's what i needed was there somebody in your life that created some air cover that way for you no no but that's what you needed yeah there you go yeah so you're giving exactly what you needed yeah that's really cool yeah um but it led to so big motor and it led to a deep understanding of perseverance. Like you have, you, you have not retreated and retracted in your life to say, I'm, I'm not worthy. You've said, I actually am. And

I'm going to press play and see how far I can take my hopes, dreams, ambitions. And so when you hear the word perseverance, what comes up for you? Just what you said about, I haven't retracted. I just want to say that as part of perseverance, I've wanted to. So I think that's important to lay on the table because I'd hate for anybody listening or watching to think that I've just gone away. Yeah, they put on your cape and now you're flying. I'm just going to persevere and push through and not know that I've also had moments where I've wanted to just go, I don't want to fight anymore or I don't want to do this anymore. It's exhausting.

It's too much. So I definitely have had those moments and I think they're I mean they're not very nice are they but they're moments where they help you realize why and give you the strength to then push on so I think if you just pushed all the time and didn't have those moments where you wanted to give up, then maybe it wouldn't be perseverance and you wouldn't then push anyway. So, I mean, I'm kind of telling that to myself as well, because sometimes when you do have those moments, they aren't very nice at all. They can feel, they can feel really dark and lonely and um and defeating um but then that's where you I think soul search and work it all out and that to me is part of perseverance because then every time the

the kind of powerful um motivation of what I want to do. And the, the deep down, I'm trying to describe what it is, this like passion to, to do what I do comes through and is always bigger than the part of me that wants to just pack it all in. Um, because I did have had those moments and you know sat here i can think of all those times where they've happened and they've happened on small beats as well the times when it feels dark and lonely and overwhelming and you're exhausted yeah and so i'd like to i'd like to like go right into one of those as much as you want to describe like i want to know i saw you just went somewhere that was cool um i want to know what do you do what do you mean by you saw me go somewhere i just did you just go

somewhere yeah i did yeah yeah by the way i didn't leave the room i just went somewhere in my own head yeah that's cool so what do you do in those moments where um you know maybe for i don't know it's an hour or two hours or a day or whatever. You're like, I'm just fucking over it. I'm exhausted. And fuck, you know, when you're in that place. Yeah. What, how do you? Fuck. Yeah.

It's exactly what I do. That's exactly what you do. And I'm English, so I swear a lot. Okay. It's a lot in those moments. So then how do you teach? How do you manage that experience? how do you manage that experience how do you navigate that experience so i think they come sometimes on a smaller level and sometimes on a really big level and i'll maybe do both so on a smaller level and what i mean by small is um date more day-to-day and because they do sometimes happen day-to-day and it doesn't have to be a big thing that's happening. It doesn't have to be like, you know, I'll give an example of a big thing in a minute, but it can just be like a normal day and you can just feel like that. And so what I do is I ask myself, because I always used to, I always used to struggle to know what it was I was feeling.

So I'd probably show it in a behavior. And I'll give an example of those to help try and teach. Defensiveness. So I can be very defensive. I'm using present tense because I can still be a little bit like that when I've had enough, when I'm exhausted, when I'm not okay. So I can still be a little bit like that um when I'm when I've had enough when I'm exhausted um when I'm not okay so I can be very defensive um example I don't know say something to me and I'll um defensive is in like short I can be I'll be short and um be extra sensitive to something that I wouldn't normally be and be very defensive.

I'm trying to think of an example. You know, if, I don't know, a friend would say to me, oh, well, I won't bother you. And I might go, well, what do you mean? Are you trying to say that like I'm too busy to be bothered? That's what I mean by defensive. I hope that analogy makes sense. And I would also go into myself.

So not want to speak to people and isolate myself. So they're the two things that I tend to do. And by isolate myself, I mean that I won't want to be social. I'll want to just be on my own and I won't want to even speak to a friend. So a friend might call and I might not want to speak. And I'll go quite introverted into myself when I'm not okay. So those signs help me know what I'm feeling. So I think before I wouldn't, and what I mean before is before I kind of went on this journey of, I don't know, growth, to use your post-traumatic growth phrase. I don't think I understood what it was I was feeling.

So I might feel angry, but I didn't quite understand. Maybe it doesn't sound strange, but like I didn't understand I was feeling angry because I just block my emotion. I just block it as a way to cope. But then my anger would come out through my behavior. I just block it as a way to cope. But then my anger would come out through my behavior. I love this because that's not perseverance. What you're describing is the unlock for perseverance is you say, you say, right, I have, I have some ambitions and goals. Most people do. And when it gets hard is where perseverance is expressed. Point, point example that I'm learning from you is that

when it gets dark or I'm frustrated or there's something going on, the milk has spilt or something small, right? But there's a darkness or a frustration about it, is that you do two things. The first thing you do is you're now noticing your behavior. But the reason this is the unlock is because what do you do when it's hard? And you say, I isolate and I defend. And if I stay defending or I stay isolating, I'm not pushing through. I'm not adjusting and adapting. I'm staying isolated and bunkered up. So perseverance is recognizing that and then figuring out how to manage or work through, accept and recommit back to the thing that

the person or the thing that you want the person you're working on becoming or the thing that you want to do that's a massive unlock and exactly to the point of when you asked me what perseverance is and straight away i said it i do have those moments because i think there's a there's a perception that sometimes i think that well does everybody else or maybe perseverance is maybe they don't have those moments because look at what they've done look at their social feed yeah it's all the highlight reels and wow they're just gliding through life exactly like it's it's us poor saps that have to figure out perseverance like they're just yeah but perseverance it it it's special because it keeps you on,

persevering meaning I've adjusted for the long haul. I've made enough small adjustments that I'm staying through it. I'm seeing it through whatever it is. But that, it's exactly that. There's dips and then how do you navigate that? That's the unlock. And I think you asked me like, what do I do?

And to try and bring some of my learnings in is that recognition, that acknowledgement is how I then go and do something. Because if I don what, what is it? Am I, what am I feeling? I'm feeling sad or angry. Why am I feeling like this? Because of this, maybe it's not even to do with my be in the past or should stay in the past. It's part of who we are. And when you push it in the past, it means that you're hiding a part of yourself. So like sometimes the past is part of my present and how I behave. So recognizing that's super important because then I'll be like, okay, what, what, instead of retreating and isolating myself, actually, maybe I should try and phone a friend because actually speaking to that friend might help me because it's countering my behavior of what I've always done. And this is what I've done from a young age, not phone a friend, is isolate. That's what I would do because I was brought up in a safe and unsafe, chaotic home. So I would isolate brilliant

strategy yeah exactly as a teenager or whatever as a child yeah great and yeah that's it but now that's not how that's helpful yeah because you want to be in intimate relationships with yeah i don't want to be sat there on my own like um so i would then reach out i might not always but but i'd recognize okay do i do I need to phone a friend um sound like he wants to be a millionaire but sorry um this is an important point why am I making a joke um um I can't help it coping mechanisms right um so and then I might phone a friend and then actually that breaks the cycle because immediately I feel loved. So that's the difference. But then I might not always, I don't always get it right. Or I might not be able to

get through to someone or I might be on a different time zone, which happens quite a lot with me. So then what do I do? So I also need to know what to do because what if that phone friend doesn't answer? And then I might feel isolated and unloved because even though it's nothing to do with them because it's three in the morning for them or they're busy and it's not always about me. Um, so then what, what can I do myself to also help comfort myself, which is very hard for me. And that's something that I've had to really learn's cool learn so there's so we think about like kicking ass in life whatever whatever frame that we're thinking about this is how i think about it can i mobilize my internal resources and can i mobilize my external resources

and if i can figure out how to do both of those towards whatever aim that i'm however i'm wherever i'm pointing my motor if you will then then I've got a better chance and so internal resources and external resources being able to mobilize like the community or self-talk or breathing or maybe it's like pouring pouring warm water going for a walk run jog whatever so internal and external I've never heard it like that and that's brilliant yeah thank you oh well yeah because I've I never heard of it as like having the external and to mobilize them yeah yeah yeah well you've been living it yeah i just put a frame on it you've been that's what you've been doing yeah it sounds like the internal is harder so like folks listening one they're getting this radical air cover from a

very successful person that is incredibly honest that has touched vulnerability and had the courage to do so, and been able in this conversation to say, yeah, here's the way through. Here's how I persevere. I feel the thing. I label the thing. I know my mechanisms that are unhealthy, and I'm trying to mobilize external and internal resources to move through to be the person I want to be and do the things I want to do. Yeah. And you always don't get it right. And I think that's been important for me to tell myself and I'm going to tell everyone else too, and you too, and everybody in this room that, that you don't, that you might still fall into some of those unhealthy coping mechanisms because we've done them for so long. And, and I think that that's normal so sometimes when I catch myself doing

them and I try and not tell myself off because I think we all do that and I I hear criticalness like tell myself yes yeah so and I hear it so much the more that I've learned about myself and grown in this area the more I hear it in other people how common it is to um how would you phrase it rather than tell because i'm saying tell yourself off be critical be horrible to yourself no i liked what you said okay yeah i often hear people might people say so horrible to themselves um and it's just it's so important to to recognize that because if i stood here if i sat here and was horrible to you throughout all this despite how accomplished you are and who you are and and and your expertise i would still affect you 100 so then if you're doing that to yourself all the time yeah and even more clever

in this is that if you're going to speak to me that way i don't want to be around you anymore yeah right how can you not be around yourself that's that's the challenge then you just hate on yourself that's exactly it yeah yeah because you're forced yeah and then it creates like a conflict inside yourself which is exhausting oh my god i've had that for my entire life, as long as I can remember, this battle in my head. I call it the standing civil war. I do. Yeah, right. At any given moment in time, I have a standing civil war within myself.

Yeah, and it's really tiring. Yeah. It's really tiring. I'm going to pause the conversation here for just a few minutes to talk about our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day.

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slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B dot com slash finding mastery. And now back to the conversation. If there's a human energy crisis right now, what is the energy crisis about? Is it this what you're describing or is it some or there are other things that are contributing to the energy crisis that is happening? I think it's this. I think it's what people have gone through so yeah that's interesting that you went there because i thought where i thought you were going to go is that there's a current that's running underneath the surface that it's the self-narrative it's the self-talk that is volatile and that is just a massive drain of resources because we're presenting a certain

way, but then beating ourselves up where we want to be free and whatever and happy. And then, but we're self-doubt and self-critique and it's this private internal tension that I think is exhausting. And I'll give you just one little way to think about it is think about the last time you cried do you know when that is uh yeah yeah that's something else i want to talk about because i used to find it so hard to cry but please continue yeah so so it's so after people do some some work and they get to that place that it's close that they're going to let their i call it clear in the tube they're going to clear their tube they're going to let the emotion move is that, um, the exhaustion, people are tired after that. I'm tired after those moments, but it's not because of the actual crying. It's all of that internal constriction. Do I do it or

not? Do I let go or not? And it's that three, four, five seconds of holding it together that is so psychically powerful that afterwards it's like that was hard whether i cried or not and so anyways i think that that's part of the human energy crisis that we're experiencing but you're not saying it you're saying it's the it's the old stuff yeah that we've been through that we are trying to carry yeah is it the carrying but i do agree with you though what you just said but i so the way you just said it is like yeah that is an energy crisis because yeah maybe i'm saying it in terms of the what causes that maybe i see and maybe. I see. And because to me, it's the fact that I think it's, it's our past trauma that we don't deal with. So it's not necessarily the trauma because every one of us in our lives has, has some kind of trauma and it's part of life.

Right. Um, but it's the unprocessed, I'll use that word and the stuff we haven't dealt with because actually what if i think about myself what the energy drain with me isn't necessarily or wasn't necessarily the battle of self-talk it was the because i still have a bit of that but it was the what i've been through that was i carrying, that was the energy drain. There you go.

Cool. Yeah, I think. Because I was carrying it as my, like all the time. Yeah. Crying. You wanted to talk about that? Yeah, I do actually. I don't think people like let go enough.

And so. I mean, I don't think people really talk about that either. Yeah. It's only because you said it. Think about the last time you cried so you you're you are remarkably available in this conversation and i also have a sense though that um going back to something you hinted at earlier is that for some part of my life people didn't really get to know me there's the guarded sense and there's the brit part of you you know

that fits right in okay i'm just pissed off an entire country or maybe in they love it now because it's like yeah okay that's it but so like i would imagine that um for a long time you didn't cry you didn't exercise that part of you no okay so is there a reason that you're having a hard time now? No, because you didn't practice it for a while. Yeah. But I think it's something that, it's just funny you said about cultures because I think this is also, I think it's a human thing,

but I think some cultures lean more to that stereotype and the Brits is one of them. I think crying makes you vulnerable or is not makes you vulnerable crying is seen as vulnerable and it can be seen as um I hate to say this because I don't agree with this at all, but can be seen as weak. And that's what I used to think of it. And I just want to make sure that it's really clear that it's not.

And it's a total false narrative. So yes. I'm checking, I'm double clicking on it. I'm saying absolutely. When I see someone get to that place, I love that they have a moment. They have a moment. Did see when I see someone get to that place, I love that they have a moment. They have a moment that they shut it down or they let it go. And when you let it go, I'm, I'm, I'm fascinated because that's what that, that, that moment where you can shut it down.

I'm like, okay, they're taking care of themselves in that way. That's cool. Like there'll be another moment sometime later. And I'm just rooting for people to let it go. Like, yeah, just fuck it. Let it happen. But it's hard. It's hard. What's hard about it? I'm not disagreeing. What's hard about it?

Got so many things. So I think firstly, the outside. So what is the outside judgment? And then the inside judgment from yourself, the emotions it makes you feel, it makes you feel exposed and vulnerable. And that's really scary. And then in some people's lives, it could also bring danger. So when I was younger, it was dangerous to cry because it would make things worse for me at home so you can so it can be so many levels there's layers on it yeah yeah so yeah and i think and i'm definitely not the only person who will relate to that i was told as a young kid like

you know big boys don't cry yeah so whether it was dang whether it was dangerous um or whether it was like for you the fact that you were taught that is like you know for a man i think that's really hard because you've got to be a man right and i've got three younger brothers and and i think that's such a hard and horrible thing that men have to go through um because they are taught that that you have to be a man and you can't that's why crying so hard but then I can relate to you even though I'm a female because for me it was it it was even for me it was like you've got to be strong you've got to be you know you can't cry and um but that stays with you oh yeah it stays with you because sometimes you can even like you can start to cry and then you just block it yeah you can 100 did you in

anywhere in this conversation because we are talking about really rich and deep experiences that are emotionally charged at any given point in time, were you up against that threshold where you were managing it? Like I could cry, but I'm not going to. Or like, did you get close to it at all? No, no. I'm trying to think how to say this. So definitely emotions. And I think also like my emotions sometimes can be expressed through physical as everybody can actually. You know, I might feel a bit like sweaty palms or, you know, I get like a bit of a rush of adrenaline when I'm feeling

certain emotions and stuff. So sometimes I those physical trouble triggers but not not crying um because for me to i have to really feel and go there um which sometimes i think naturally i just i subconsciously don't do anyway because it's the you know i've got to walk out of here and go and do something else right so i think sometimes like I'll give an example so I do um sometimes speak around um sexual abuse and domestic abuse um and mental health and if I go and give those talks I'll give a keynote or I'll actually do some campaigning work and I might give like um a more detailed account um and talk through some of the things that happened to me and why it's so important that say I don't know we changed the law or we changed policy like the documentary you mentioned actually changed national and international so national I mean the UK um

international and international policy so when I'm pushing for something like that um then then I do find it difficult and I do get emotional and I will sometimes cry and then what I have to go and do is go and do I have to help manage myself after I can't go and just do some work or do something else or go and meet someone because it makes me feel so exposed and vulnerable that I have to go and do something to really help myself and comfort myself. And that's something that I've learned to do. Yeah. Cool strategy. What's an example of that? It really depends. So give myself some space. Sometimes I don't want to speak to people because I just need to give myself some headspace. Are you an introvert? Oh, this is interesting because I, I would never have in a million years said I was an introvert until recently. I would have

been like, no, definitely extrovert. And I feel I've probably said that loads of times in my past because I'm super social. Um, you know, when I walked in and met you and met your team, I was chatting away. I'm super chatty and, um, I love being with people. I love going out. La la la. That gives you energy. Yeah. But, um, I did some performance work as in performance, like performance coaching, life coaching type stuff, but it was based on like business and performance. And, um, and actually when I went through all that, cause they do things about your personality and what your, your inner traits are, as I'm sure you're aware. Um, and I

was an introvert and I was a, so, but I was the social version of an introvert. So I was the social introvert. So I was the most social introvert type that there is, if there was a type, um, which means, which I didn't realize, and I'm, I bet you do, but I'm going to say it and then see what you think. Which introvert means that you restore on your own. And I was like, oh my God. Honestly, that realization is mind-blowing because sometimes I don't want to be with people even though I'm really social but then I would feel bad and guilty about not being with people but now I don't feel bad and guilty because I understand it's actually what I need so when I

am struggling sometimes or I'm exhausted and especially in my job as I'm sure is yours I'm with people all the time and I'm always talking and a lot of things depend on me that it's really energy sapping and I love it and not in a negative way but that means that yeah that I have to give myself time on my own and go and go for it that's why I run a lot I go for a long run because not just because the running helps me but because that time alone just helps me and i don't have to speak and i don't have to give i can just be and that sometimes fills me up when you're on depends yeah right it depends sometimes i put headphones on and i put um house music on um just because like i'm a big raver um no um i am a big raver but um I just love house music and dancing

when I was younger um and still do but also it's the the beat I find very meditative and and I kind of like listen to the beat as I'm just running and I can just and and it it's hard for me to switch off my brain is always flying about a million thoughts and it's sometimes really annoying because I'm like I wish it'd just be quiet um so to do that is a time where where my thoughts just quiet down and my brain quietens and then just that moment just by doing that I can be totally re-energized and that that's what I learned and it's helped me because when I go and do that instead of being with somebody else I don't feel guilty now and I understand that that's how I need to restore and the best partners are the ones that say oh cool that's what you need great I got you yeah right like and it's incumbent on us to know what

we need it is and then to be smart about the partners in our life that will back us and support us and challenge us and co-sign that space that we need yeah and understand that but you like you made a really good point that you've got to understand it about yourself you have to yeah because well listen the world is vying for your attention vying for your internal resources and money and da da da if you don't take care of yourself like a life can be, life can be really, really hard. And it's, but it's also, I think I made the point that it's hard to do that because you do, I'm definitely one of those people that feels guilty, um, about going to take that time. Um, and like the guilt just comes in and then I have to talk to myself about that. Um,

would you have said I was an introvert or an extrovert from meeting me? It's tough to tell. Okay. Yeah. Are you an extrovert or an introvert? I am more of an extrovert, but I have, as I've gotten older, I've far more appreciated the introverted experience. And so, yeah, you got to know, like, how do you recharge introverted or extroverted is really interesting. I feel like people would probably call you incredibly resilient, but I'm, I'm not sure that that's exactly the thing that I would see you as. So how do you think about resilience? Finding master is brought to you by I restore when it comes to my health. I try to approach things with a proactive mindset.

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That's lisa.com. The promo code is findingy for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. Again, very good question because I think resilience is something that's become a hot topic and it's a phrase that's used all the time. And in fact, I've been called resilient, but I've also many times, but I've also been asked to talk about resilience and give a talk about how we all need to be resilient many times. And the reason why I struggle with it is because I am and was one of the most resilient people I think I've ever met. As a child, I was so resilient. I think I've ever met as a child I was so resilient I was ridiculously resilient to be able to get where I am now to be able to have gone through the things I've gone through

but I wouldn't teach that that's not something we should encourage because because to me I remember I'll never forget this um um I can't give the details too much but there was a situation um a very difficult situation and I spoke that involved the police and I remember speaking to a victim what they call victim support and they said to me yeah we can give you a um you know a session on on how to be more resilient and I was like are you kidding me I am the most resilient I don't need help I'm resilient because I've gone through this just to wake up each morning just to get through everything you've got through you need to be resilient if there's anybody out there that's gone through some kind of trauma and doesn't feel resilient you are goddamn resilient because you've got through each day. Sometimes it takes so much resilience to get through each day.

But to me, I don't think that's what we should be teaching because being resilient, and again, I go back to myself as a child, I didn't need to be taught resilience. I was the epitome of resilience. And what I needed to be taught was kindness to myself, empathy, understanding, understanding my own emotions, how to regulate my own emotions, how to view myself. Those are the things that I needed to be taught, not to be more resilient. So the thing, look, of course resilience is important, but we now got this weird meaning of what resilience means. So what we should be taught is not how to be resilient, but how to understand how we feel, how we understand how to deal with our emotions, not to be more resilient with them and basically just repress them all. And I'll just stop my rant about resilience, but that's what I feel about it. I don't know, you're kind of nodding your head, but would you agree or not?

When people ask me to talk about or give some insights on resilience, when I lead with this thought, they all look at me like, no, that can't be the case. I say, to develop resilience, you have to go through something really hard. If you want to become more resilient, I have to, or you have to co-create something really hard. If you want to become more resilient, I have to, or you have to co-create something incredibly difficult. And I go, no, it's already hard. I go, well, so what are we talking about then? So I'm nodding my head because of the substrate skills that you're talking about is the opportunity. People are doing their very best to navigate their earlier life and the challenges and the headwinds that they have in their current life. Kindness and calmness and

confidence, the substrate skills that you're talking about, let's build those. Let's just start there. And then maybe the output of resilience is easier, but it's not about building more resilience for me. like go, oh, well, you're the strong one. You're so resilient. You'll be fine. And I'm like, that's not the point. You're missing what I'm saying. You're not hearing me. I'm telling you that I'm feeling this way. I don't, that to me is, that basically shuts what I'm telling you down.

That shuts my feelings down because you're going, yeah, but look, you know, you're so strong. You're so resilient. And it's like, yeah, but that's not, you're not giving me the comfort I need. What I need you to say is, oh, no, I understand why you feel like that. I would add a slight tone to that. Is this what you're experiencing?

Not I understand you. There's a patronizing way about that. But for me, there's like a calibration, like, okay, so am I, am I understanding this correctly? And I, and then I'll say like, you're really sad or you're really feel lonely or whatever the emotional experiences. And then you'll correct me. You'll say, no, it's not, I'm not sad. I'm actually scared. I go, oh, so it's like not saying, oh, I understand you because i don't know there's it's a little bit too much of a leap of faith to assume that i can understand so there's a step in between to calibrate is this what you're feeling yeah yeah because i think it is a way to you know a lot of

people that come across as maybe very outwardly strong and that are very strong and that have been through a lot of things sometimes find it really hard to access support and help but also the other reason is because people see them as so strong that they don't expect them to need help and that's something that's definitely been common in my life so because people see me as a certain way and maybe I don't need help I just might need to tell somebody how I feel so if I'm told that like oh you're so resilient or you're so strong it just shuts me down which then makes me go back to the place of coping coping by just being on my own which I know is not really what I need. Yeah. Well said.

Just an interesting thought, right? Of how to see yourself, but also maybe when you speak to other people. Yeah. Okay. I couldn't figure out how you and 50 Cent would do a project together about El Chapo. Why? What's so different about me and 50?

Now I understand. Now I understand. Why? What's so different about me at 50? Now I understand. Now I understand. Why doesn't that match what makes sense? What do you think he saw in you? I just love his music. I'm just a fan. And he just picked me up and went, no, I'm joking. No, yeah, no.

What do you think he saw in you? Let's ask him. Should I? Should I get him on the phone? phone yes um oh he's a great talker he's so fascinating yeah sometimes we're on the phone we just talk for hours about um i remember once we were talking about the title of that show and then we spent two hours talk about other stuff at the same time and we were just meant to be talking about the title of the show. And he's a fascinating person. You'd have a great time kind of exploring his brain and his backstory. What do I think he saw in me?

I don't want to speak for him. But I think he saw I'm a little bit different from maybe the people that he deals with not i don't want to say anything bad about them they're all amazing um but just in general i mean um i think you're different i didn't yeah there's a strength about you that is noted yeah and you don't know how people see you i you never know so it's interesting that you said that. Yeah. I wonder if you saw that same thing. Maybe.

Yeah. I think. Maybe ask them. I will do. Text me and let me know. I would like to know. Maybe she's the only person crazy enough to. You know what?

What I think also is, is I remember we, me 50, and the Flores twins who were in the show Surviving El Chapo. It's about their story. When we all spoke and we had our first, like, and by the way, they hadn't decided whether they trusted me or whether it was me they were going to open up to. We just had an initial conversation and we spent hours talking about interestingly uh trauma and mental health and i think we ended up having such a deep conversation all of us um that i think maybe that's one of the things i mean he'd already seen something in me before to even get me in that trusted space right right um but I think that that was one of the things is um I don't know

that I didn't sit there and and judge these people that we immediately connected on something that was just human um and I think god I I find it difficult saying it. And the reason why is because I don't want to be bigging myself up, which I struggle with. So it's like, I don't want to say things that 50 might have thought he saw in me because I don't want to analyze that. I think it's actually quite normal. Okay.

Because what I'm saying is not necessarily what I'm thinking in my brain. So I'm thinking, well, he saw that I was strong and I didn't treat him any differently than anybody else. And I can imagine a lot of people treat him in a certain way. Um, you know,

in fact, talking of the title, you know, I disagreed on a few things and, and, and we had this amazing conversation to get to a creative point together with both our brains and what we were both happy with. Um, and I totally respect him so much because he listened to me. Um, and I think he saw that in me and, but also

compassion and, and care. And I really do care about what I'm doing and the integrity of it. And I can't help it. Like it sometimes annoys me because I wish I didn't because then I could just be like, nah, carefree, but I'm not. Everything I do, I care about.

And that's a great thing. But sometimes, and I wouldn't change that for the world, but sometimes it's like, oh, just everything has to be like, you know, annoying myself now. In my own head, I'm like, sometimes I'm way too serious. You know, like what I try to live by is that I take what I do seriously, not myself.

But that's also hard to do. I feel like I'm constantly going, but everything you say. But it's interesting because that's hard to do. There's that thing where it's like, oh, don't take yourself too seriously. Don't take life too seriously. But sometimes… Well, I think it's the tension between… Again, another phrase my mentor suggested to me is like, Mike…

He said it flippantly. He says… I thought he was kind of giving me a compliment. He says, Mike, you know, you really matter and you really matter in the lives of people that, you know, you're with. And I was like, oh, thank you. He goes, and you also get that in the big scheme of things, like you don't matter. You don't matter at all. You know, millions of years. Yeah.

So can we do a fun little close here? Yeah. Yeah. Quick hits. So this is like. Like, you know, millions of years. Yeah. So can we do a fun little close here? Yeah, yeah. Quick hits. So this is like. Oh, this makes me nervous. Yeah. One or two word answers. I know I'm really struggling with that.

Right. Okay, good. Okay, come on. One or two words. Okay. So here we are. It all comes down to. I was going to say love, but that sounds so naff.

Wait, hold on. It was one word and you said love and then you're like, no, no, no, I can't. Okay. Is it love? Yeah. Because that's what I think saved my life. Pressure comes from? Myself.

I am. Many things. My vision is? To make change. Relationships are? Complicated, but needed. But needed? That's so funny. I found so funny.

Okay. What in your life are you deeply missing? Right now, my mom. Who tells you no? Not many people. My friend Tanya tells me no. She's one of the few people that does. That's cool. Yeah, she's cool.

She'll check me out. She does, yeah. If you had a boat, what would you name it? Jack. So I have to double click on that. Jack after my dog, who was the love of my life. He's not here anymore. Jack the Jack Russell, by the way.

Oh, Jack. I had a Jack Russell. Did you call him Jack? I did not name him Jack. Yeah, right. I named him Russell. He was called Mr. Jack. Mr. Jack.

Makes sense. Okay. So if you could last question if you could sit with any master of craft oh gosh dead or alive who would it be

where would you want to sit with them and what one question would you ask them well I'll say what immediately came into my head Muhammad Ali, just because he, from a young age, had an influence on me. So it's supposed to be one word answers. I told you I should go with that. Oh, this one's a little... Oh, I'm allowed a few

sentences. I broke, I broke. Muhammad Ali. And what was the next question? Where would you want to sit with him oh anywhere it doesn't matter to me one question outside outside yeah that's interesting one question why and he says why what good question muhammad ali um why what why why did you do what you did yeah like what what was your why inside what motivated you a bit like what you asked me what was his driver it's really cool I think a lot of that I'm now analyzing Muhammad Ali but I think some of that came from his injustice and what he felt of injustice and that he felt he didn't have a voice. And when I was younger, I remember reading his book and then I read the book that his daughter

wrote. And I remember reading it and found it so inspirational. And I found that it's interesting you said about 50. I find that I relate to 50 a lot and I think he relates to me. And even though Muhammad Ali is from a different generation for me, from me a different culture, I felt so much of his own pain, I suppose, which motivated me, even though we're so different. I've loved this conversation. Thank you for having me.

Thank you for giving a masterclass on. On what? Yeah. What did I give it? Let me ask you a question. What did I give a masterclass on? Honesty, courage, adaptability, internal work, relatability. Like, honestly, what a breath of fresh air to have this conversation, to be able to dance

between the darkest, the hardest parts of the human experience and to laugh freely and to, you know, like enjoy the spirit of growth and becoming. And so what a fantastic gift. Thank you. Thank you for having me. And I hope that it's been useful in some way, because that's what that's what's important to me to look at yourself to face yourself to get to know yourself and because that's what gives you the strength oh my goodness that is what i would hope for all of my family members is to really understand to go on that adventure of self-discovery and be incredibly honest on that adventure and that's hard it's really hard to be honest it's easy to outwardly

look everywhere else um for an answer but i think getting to know yourself is where all the answers come from and that's what keeps you going through those really dark times oh 100 where do you want to drive people where's a good place that people can follow along with what you're doing? Um, they can follow me on social media. Um, I'm on Instagram. I'm just my name at Charlie Webster. Uh, Twitter is at Charlie CW. Um, yeah. And just send me a little message or say hi if you'd like to. Awesome. Thank you, Charlie. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show,

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