Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Aaron Bruno, AWOLNATION Founder and Lead Singer

Episode Date: September 5, 2018

This week’s conversation is with Aaron Bruno, best known as the founder and lead singer of AWOLNATION.Formed in 2010, AWOLNATION crafted one of the most influential songs in years with the chart-topping, record-breaking track “Sail.”The first single off the gold-certified full-length debut Megalithic Symphony, “Sail” was certified 6x platinum in the US and holds the record for the most weeks on the Billboard Hot 100 chart by an independent artist, the second longest for any artist.Sail had a profound impact on me.We talk about that in the podcast - how his music helped me get the vibe right for a mindset training project that I was working onIt’s amazing how music can do that. The same song can mean so many different things to so many different people.Different emotions, feelings, memories - and that’s something we discuss - why music means so much to Aaron and why he’s so passionate about it coming from an authentic place.It’s clear how much Aaron loves music, but he wasn’t always destined for stardom.He was a member of multiple bands that never made it and reached the point where others around him thought he should give it up.Think about that as you listen to this conversation.How well are you connected to what matters most to you - to the inner ache, that burning ache - and if you are - are you willing to give up just about everything else for it? _________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais, and by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist. And the whole idea behind this podcast is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery, to better understand what they're searching for, to understand their psychological framework, and to dig to understand the mental skills that they've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals,

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Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. All right. This week's conversation is with Aaron Bruno, best known as the founder and lead singer of AWOL Nation. They formed in 2010 and they crafted one of the most influential songs in years with the chart-topping, record-breaking track, Sail.

And the song just exploded. And see if you can recognize just the few.S. and holds the record for the most weeks on the Billboard Hot 100 chart by an independent artist and the second longest for any artist. But that's not the only reason I asked Aaron to be on the Finding Mastery podcast. Sail, that song, had a profound impact on me. And we talk about that in the podcast and how his music helped me to get in the right vibe for a mindset training project that I was working on. And it's just amazing how music can do that. The same song can mean so many different things to so many different people, different emotions and feelings and memories.

And that's something that we discuss in this conversation, why music means so much to Aaron, to me, to all of us, and why he is so passionate about it coming from an authentic place. And as you might imagine, Aaron didn't just wake up masterful. We dive into the struggles, the fork in the road for him, and how he navigated that, as well as when others were encouraging him to hang up his music career and how he moved through that process, which is certainly tricky when people that you care and love say, hey, maybe this isn't the right path for you. Think about that as you listen to this conversation. How well are you connected to what matters most to you, to that inner ache, that burning ache that you have? And if you are, are you willing to give up just about everything else

for it? I mean, that's purpose. That is passion. That's inner conviction and strength. That's having a very clear vision and the mental skills that allow you to back that up. And that's why I love these conversations because we get glimpses and hints about how people have done that. And with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Aaron Bruno. I also noticed that anytime I'm talking or doing radio stuff, I try to focus on my voice, not sounding silly or ridiculous like it does to most of us when we hear a recording like the first time you hear um your voicemail and you realize wow i sound ridiculous when i talk so i find that i uh am concentrating a little bit more on the tone of my voice when i'm speaking and then i run out of breath it It's funny because the tone of your voice and the way that you amplify intensity in

your music is almost a signature to many of the songs. So you've got a lot of range in what you do in your music. Thank you. Yeah. I love hearing you start this conversation about your tone. Well, you know, I like a lot of different music and that's a big part of being a chameleon vocally, I think, in a lot of ways. And I was in different bands before as well. So I guess I should just jump into that, I suppose. Starting with growing up in the 80s listening to a lot of pop radio

which then was of course to me the golden era of pop you know but that's just because i was so impressionable at that time but what are we talking about prince and prince with donna michael jackson you know and all sorts of one-hit wonders that loved and, and, um, being a little boy, you know, having not gone through puberty just yet. So I would be singing pretty high. And then once I went through puberty, which I can't believe I'm talking about puberty out of the gates. Um, I started singing my falsetto to, to continue to be. And for those who don't know, that's your, you know, your higher voice, the, you know, the,

how Prince sings a lot and Michaelael jackson sings up high um reaching the the more feminine tone within yourself i suppose so i got comfortable at doing that and it was a way to to hide from my regular chest voice which is what if you were just to sing a song is probably what you would gravitate towards using. So I started with that and I got pretty good at navigating around in my falsetto. And then it wasn't until I met a friend by the name of Matt Broderick, not the Matthew Broderick from Ferris Bueller's Day Off, which is in my top 10. Ferris? Easily.

Bueller? For sure. Yeah. Along with Back to the Future 1 being my number one. That's the one. That's the one. And then There Will Be Blood is two. So do you like the 50s?

Or do you just like the idea of kind of – I do. And I think in the 80s, a lot of pop culture was referencing the 50s. Yeah, it was. Interestingly enough. And I love the band The Cars. And they were heavily influenced by 50s music, I thought. What was their big song?

Like Tubes? The Cars. They had a bunch of stuff like a song called Drive. Yeah. You might think... I'm Crazy? Yes. Was it, of course?

Yes. And they just got inducted to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, which is awesome to see. Because some bands have to be inducted, even though i don't necessarily love them but that was that was an example of a group that i was excited for my buddy scott schreiner who plays bass and weezer got to play bass for the cars when they were inducted so that was pretty neat and i didn't know so i turned on the tv and he's got a nice suit on playing with one of my favorite bands that was really cool so back to my voice i guess I was, when I met Matt Broderick, it's all about Matt Broderick. He was a drummer and I played guitar casually.

And we started a punk band called the Ice Monkeys. And that's when I realized I had to sing and I was embarrassed. So I would just kind of hide behind this sort of raspy tone and sort of scream, sort of sing. Punk is not going to do falsetto. It should and probably does now. But at the time, no, I was just sort of going for something and hiding behind a gritty tone. And we were never going to show anyone this music.

It was just for fun. It was just in his bedroom. How old are you at this time? 12. 12? Yeah. 11 or 12? this music it was just for fun it was just in his his bedroom how old are you at this time 12 12 yeah okay so 11 or 12 let's let's go back the like eight years before that right where'd you grow up oh i grew up in the suburbs of uh westlake village california it's not too far from here mom and dad actually did pretty well westlake's like an a nice part of california super nice it is considered that yes yeah so they did there are much nicer spots, of course,

but we went through ups and downs. I remember meeting other kids and seeing their houses and thinking, whoa, this is what wealth is like. This is insane. It's all a matter of perspective, of course. And then we were somewhere in the middle of that area. But I do remember harder times where our family sat down and we had a conversation about saving money and how we had to look at things a little bit differently. Because without getting too personal about business or my dad's whole life story, there were a few moments where we needed to scale it back a little bit. And that was a good learning experience for sure. What did he do as a profession? He's a financial planner.

So he's an accountant and he's a money guy. Conservative. Which has been great for me as an artist who doesn't know much about business. Oh, there you go. Although I've learned circumstantially quite a bit. And he's still in your he is partner in some ways for i guess business advice yeah financial advice so he's a thorn in the side of a lot of people for me which is a good thing you know is he conservative

by nature is he more aggressive um you know he likes to say that his his style is boring and safe. And that's been great for me because a lot of guys make some money and they want to start a restaurant or start some sort of crazy company with their best friend from elementary school. So we've done nothing like that. And I've been really conservative with my money. What is your relationship with money? Super emotional question. Yeah, sure. I remember what it was like to have none of it.

And before AWOL Nation took off, I was deeply in debt. I was around $30,000 in debt. So the first thing I did when I got an advance from the record label was I paid the debt off right away. And that was a great, great feeling. So I was starting at zero again. And, um, so, I mean, my relationship with money is, is, is that I live each day as if I'm never going to make another dollar. That's how I look at it. You know, I, i feel extremely lucky that music ended up actually paying the bills and then some but um i think it's important that that i always remember what it was like to be broke

and assume that there that you know the world is gonna blow up and no more money's coming so is this so there's a mindset of abundance, like a framework of abundance. Like, you know what? There's plenty of money. There's plenty of this. There's plenty of that. Let's just live free. And then there's something much more conservative, which would be a mindset of scarcity that no, no, no, no. There's limited resources. There's limited money. There's limited water. there's limited whatever. And we need to make sure that we protect against that scarcity. Do you fall deep on that scarcity side? Or is there, do you have some sort of, I don't know, what were your tolerances between those two?

I really pick and choose where I'm going to spend. I care a lot about health. Land, honestly, is a big deal to me because there's not a lot of it, especially in California. So if you can get your hands on some, that's probably a smart move. But I don't drive a fancy car, for example. I have a couple of old cars I like, but they serve a function. And I think one day, you know, let's say all the computer, the brains inside these advanced cars may turn on us. So I like that I have a couple of cars that will just turn on, you know, and they're easy to fix. When you think about the future, are you afraid of, not afraid, but concerned about what technology is doing? I am. You are. of not afraid but concerned about what technology is doing i am you are so yeah it seems like the

whole world especially in my industry is is running you know jumping headfirst into the deep end of social media and uh you know different digital platforms and i feel like i'm running away from that but you know there's a fine line and you have to you have to somewhat keep up with it in order to reach your fans in a lot of ways and and be able to actually get your your music out there so uh i hate it so much but but i have to adapt at the same time and be aware of what's going on so where did your where do you just first start thinking about a more primal rustic primitive way of living as the world is moving you know like and like okay it's not lost on me that you were an eight fan of 80s music that pushed back to the 50s and here we are in 2000 whatever and you're pushing back you know still to still to the fifties, maybe to simpler times. I suppose it's always been in me and the way I was raised to, to, to keep what is truly

valuable in front of me. And that is really family and love and, um, you know, trying to be morally sound as much as you can and try to help people. And I feel like music does that. It's a weird thing to try to claim that your music is so special in some sort of way that it's helping people. But I have experienced the results of music helping me, at least, growing up and saving me through some really dark times or difficult times, heartbreak. There's a reason that some of the biggest and best songs in the history of time are about getting your heart just ripped out and stomped on. Um,

and music has always been my best friend. So I've got to see firsthand some of my songs become that exact thing for other fans and people. And, uh, that's been extremely overwhelming and, you know, in anyone in, in my sort of position, I hope feels that way too. So I'm not saying that I'm unique or anything like that, but, um, it's, and with that, you carry some sort of a, um, a responsibility, I think, to, to do good. And so I always feel that every single word I write down that I eventually sing really matters. So on this last record, for example, I spent hours and hours researching the words that I ended up singing and making sure that,

that they all made sense to me. And I could explain them if I were to meet a fan that had a question about the message or about the, the lyrical content. I don't remember your question at all, by the way, but I'm just, I ended up here somehow, but I think your question was, was when did I start thinking this way? Yeah. And what I just heard, though, if I can capture, because there's some, I don't want to use the word tonality because we started with that. But the way that you choose words is purposeful, as I'm watching you do it right now.

And you have a seriousness about you. You have a depth about you and a concern. Like those are three things that are like you're concerned about things you really care and you're really serious and but your music i i don't i never know what to say to an artist because i don't want to be offensive but i want to share my experience sure is that okay to do yeah as long as you don't compare it to like creed or you know some terrible band like that. We're all good. What I was going to say is it's, for me,

it's like this nexus between intensity and truth. And when you go into that like voice thing, like that really raspy piece that you go into, it's like it runs right through me. And so. I used to have a song called Run Right Through. Do you? I got to pay attention to that one. It's from another band another band it wasn't a great song so don't worry about it yeah okay cool so

but you've got that mixture of intensity uh caring and like this contemplative way about looking for the right way to articulate what you're feeling so so your the question was about the throwback to the 50s when you started to really be concerned about the movement forward with technology. But can I pivot really quickly? Yeah. Because unless you really want to answer that question. No, go ahead.

Yeah, sure. I didn't have an answer anyways. Okay, here we go. What is it that you're really searching for above all else? In life or in music? I guess they're one in the same level of artistry i'm most interested in the inevitable truth of what really happens when we pass and what the purpose of life is. And I don't necessarily tackle that subject on every song, but that's what I mostly think about, you know, because you could have a billion dollars, you could have anything in

between. But, you know, when you're sitting there and the light's about to shut off, I think that's a very heavy equalizer. And I'm very fascinated with who's going to be right and who's going to be wrong when all is said and done. And I try not to get into religion. It's sort of a thing that I really don't want to tackle because I don't have the answers, of course. Do you have a framework that you're working from like, like in not a religious framework, but a spiritual framework? Yeah, I do.

And I sort of base a lot of it off of my relationship with my own dad. He has an abundance of wisdom that, that, that is second to none in my travels at least, you know, so I haven't met anyone that understands the way the world works quite like he does. And so I always turn to him and I'm really lucky, you know, not everybody has that relationship with their own father. And I've run to a couple other people along my journey that, that have great wisdom to share, of course, as well. I have a great relationship with my manager. So we talk, we have really deep discussions that, you know, I can only talk to him about certain things. And I, you know, I have a handful of people that I'm lucky enough to be able to go a little deeper than just, what'd you do today? Or did you hear this new song by this new artist? Or, you know,

how are the waves? But talk about, you know, the way the world works and I suppose unplugging from the narrative that, that most people subscribe to. Yeah. There's, I like to think that there's three levels of conversations. There's the beer and pizza conversations, you know, right on the surface. Then there's conversations about people and then there's conversations about people. And then there's conversations about ideas. And I think that they're out of those three, you could go to a lot of places on the bottom two, but if they don't reach that place where it's nearly impossible to articulate, I think we're probably not getting to the real stuff. So there's things that words can't quite articulate.

Yeah, definitely. And that's where music comes in, in a lot of ways. I could say so much in a song and have the listener have no idea what I'm saying or what it means to me. I've met multiple people that have interpreted these lyrics in a completely different way, but the end result was good. And we reached the same conclusion emotionally,

which would be some sort of uplifting or helpful feeling from the song or the lyric. But I just have a certain care for music and obsession with it that, you know, I've only met a few other people that have that. And what is that? It's just my favorite aspect of this world, really, is music. It's what I understand best. It's what I think about all day long. I'm haunted by it.

There's this new song I'm working on right now that I don't even know if it's good or not, but it's on repeat in my mind even as we're sitting here. And half of my brain is trying to figure out how to fix this lyric because I don't know what to say exactly in this verse, but the chorus is incredible to me. And so somewhere in my brain right now, it's a curse too, it's a curse too. Trust me. Well, but it's scrambling. Yeah. It sounds like there's this thing that's running in the background a lot. And then I could ignore it, but it's there, you know, I think about, um, the way that here's, here's one of the challenges

of the craft of psychology is that everyone uses their mind. Some people use it really well, and some people don't. And some people believe they understand how the mind works because they have one, but they really don't. And it's really complicated. And so I find myself in the background often thinking about the structure of the mind, the person that I'm with. Right. And then, but then when I'm just having conversations about beer and pizza, you know, the surface type stuff, that's the last thing I want to be doing. But there's a meta awareness of the relationship and nature and structure of the mind

that I can't pull myself away from. Does that sound similar to how you engage with music? It's a passion, really. And one of your song on your new album passion yeah with the stutter see i i brought brought that up so you would mention the song did you know see how you're working one big part of this is is humor by the way there's a lot of humor in my music and and some of it is probably you know only humor for like the guys in my band or whatever or certain other songwriters but like

there's a sarcasm in the music as well that that uh is is helpful i think and um i try not to take it all too seriously even though this conversation has been fairly serious so far but when i go on stage i mean i can't believe people are coming to watch me entertain you know that's hilarious that's growing up that's that's madonna you know that's uh bet middler or something like that you know or someone like that i should say and michael jackson not not me right so before we go on stage the five of us just just trash each other we're just we're just brutally making fun of each other and it's it's very helpful because then when we go on stage, we don't take it so seriously and feel like we're above everybody.

It's more like an equalizer of sorts. Is that trash talking? Respectful trash talking. Is it the same type of trash talking from one show to the next or is it brand new each time you do it? It's always new. Okay. So actually, you know what you're doing?

We actually do this up at Seattle Seahawks is we created a little mechanism to prime flow state. Flow state being the most optimal state a human can be in. It's when time and awareness and action all syncopate and we're completely on time with the present moment. It's rare, but we can do things to prime it and trigger it and get more familiar increase of frequency of it so one of the things we do you can't you got to make things cool that are real

and so talking trash and talking shit to each other is just part of the ecosystem of american football for sure it sounds like your band is so we do that to keep each other on uh right before they're about to go play there's an experience that we do just that. Now this is by design though. Right. And so, but so if I say something to you and it's sharp, there's also a undertone that I'm calling you out to see if you can do it again today. Sure. Right. Like I know what you did back in high school when you broke all those records, but can you do that again? You don't have what it takes. And so, and then each person goes around in a circle as they're bouncing around on the

field, going back and forth, really talking trash to each other, but bringing out something that is really important, which is the spontaneity required to take risk. So there's a risk involved to say something back to somebody because you either get clowned by everyone else about it being weak or, you know, you could go too deep and hurt the guy they either hurt him or it's not good enough it's not good enough right it's one of the two scary position it is isn't it right so there's some vulnerability that we're playing with so in a very alpha male masculine way and so i've never heard anyone else do that. Well, you know, it's not quite as professional sounding as how you described it, you know. But that's what you guys are doing.

Yeah, I mean, my drummer and I, Isaac, he's one of my best friends. He was also in another band that failed, just like mine did. So we always just kind of like, we remind each other of those moments and, and it's, it's a funny thing to watch a guy go on stage or a girl go on stage, but especially it's funnier when, when a guy goes on stage and takes himself really seriously, you know, in a lot of ways. And we have friends like that. And, and we clown other bands of course, all the time. And we want to,

we want to be the best when we play. So if we play a festival, you know, and let's say there's a band that's going to play after us, it is our goal and desire to make it impossible for them to play after us. And I did play sports growing up. And I think that that helped a lot. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday,

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Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. What's the frequency of joy for you in your life? Is it daily? And is it throughout the day? Is it weekly? Is it bursts? Is it fleeting? Is it enduring? There's definitely bursts. Bursts of joy? Yeah.

Is it daily or weekly or monthly? I mean, surfing is a big thing for me. So surfing is just as big as music is. And so when the waves aren't good and you don't get to get out in the ocean, all of us, my buddies I grew up surfing with, we turn into different creatures for sure. But then I immerse myself in music and get a lot more work done. So the relationship between external and internal.

So the internal is under your control. That depends on how skilled you are on it. And the external, let's say it again. It can be. It can be. And the external is often not, there's nothing really in our control externally other than our own actions, which, okay. But the external internal, the relationship between the

two, does the external dictate the internal or does the internal drive the external for you? Well, I'm sure a little bit of both. Right. And which way is the direction moving more often? i i think in internal internal external i think so yeah i mean i think i think that you know i could i think most songwriters have some some form of depression but i don't like to use that as a an excuse for for dark for dark moods or, or dark lyrics. For example, um, I've heard certain singers come out recently and say, Oh, I battled with depression and they're selling millions of records and stuff like that. And I always find that a bit off putting, even though it may be true, it's just not something that, that I think should be shared in a lot of ways. But you wallow in pain, but your music is uplifting. Yeah, because music is what I would turn to, to feel better in a lot of ways, like a drug.

Okay. But I don't want to paint the picture that I walk around depressed all day, but I have, I do have moments where I have to ask myself why it is I feel a bit down when I probably shouldn't. And I'm able to pull myself out of that. And does that take a day or does that take 10 minutes? It could take 10 minutes or whatever. Okay. Yeah. So when I decide something, my mind is fairly powerful in that way. Like I was drinking too much. I just stopped one day. I was smoking too much weed.

I just stopped one day. I usually let things – I can recognize if something's going – if something's sort of unhealthy in my life. And that could be mentally or physically. It could be literally what I'm eating or what I'm putting into my body or what I'm doing. And I usually, I don't need an intervention or some sort of awakening. I'm lucky enough that it eventually just rears its head and I'm able to take care of it. What do you do? Yeah. So let's say use drinking, for example, and you say, okay, this isn't working anymore. I'm done. And you make the decision. And then what do you do the next time you're at a setting that you would have drank before? Well, I find that to be a hilarious test almost in a lot of ways, you know, because I'm like,

okay, this is ridiculous. It's hard to not drink in my industry because everybody's wasted all the time. You're hosting this event every night where most people, I would say 90% of the people are buzzed at the very least. And, you know, a lot of these folks have saved their money for that babysitter that night or to take their date to dinner. And they're usually buzzing. So you don't want to let people down. But it is hard to be around people who are wasted when you're sober. It's very difficult. And I'm still getting used to that now.

How long have you been sober? I'm not sober, by the way. But I used to habitually drink before a show what was the reason boredom i think in a lot of ways there's it wasn't anxiety no no i've always felt comfortable on stage i've always felt okay um how do you think about being on stage like what allowed you to be comfortable because that's a terrifying place for many people because going back to the ice monkeys and and then my next band which was was a hardcore band where it was more hardcore music for those who don't know is kind of the underground of punk rock music, but with a heavier twist. No one's ever been able to define that.

And I'm not sure I learned how to write a song. Because our early on bands, that's all we cared about. We're like, we just got to go off live, sweat and have a great time and get everybody to jump around to and do stage dives and mosh and sing along. And it was more about a of a universal sound that could appeal to anyone at the grocery store, let's just say, and not just my buddies, which was what we were doing before. before I had already gone through the gauntlet of playing a bunch of shows live without having to sing. So I learned how to perform first is what I'm trying to get at. Then I learned how to write songs or tried to write better songs. So cutting all the way till now, I mean, once everything started to take off for AWOL Nation, I was like, okay, well, this will be easy to play live because all I'd ever done before was play a bunch of live shows with zero success commercially. So I had sort of a reverse training, if you will.

Okay. So if I'm trying to map together in my mind, like where you're coming from, what you're searching for, how you see the world and understand it. And knowing that your craft is finely tuned. I'm not sure I know what your craft is yet. I know you to play lots of music, musical instruments that you can produce, that you can write, that you've got a voice about it. Like you've got like a polymath, if you will, within the music industry. That being said, I don't think that I understand yet what it is that you're working to authentically express. And maybe you've said it 15 times, I missed it, but... I would say that I'm first and foremost a songwriter. That's the craft. That's the primary craft?

Well, a lot goes into that. I mean, there's a lot of gray in this answer, I suppose. Okay, cool. I have always loved multiple genres of music. I was in a bunch of bands that had some sort of walls, some sort of border, if you will. And I always want to climb over the border, right? Meaning like, this is a punk band, this is a hardcore. Yeah, kind of. Or yeah, other guys in the bands. Because when you're in a band with four gentlemen, they all have equal voting rights, or at least that's how it was before. And sometimes it was difficult for me, you know, to write a melody and some lyrics and sing them and have, let's say, my guitar player, bass player, drummer, or whoever, tell me, well, you can't, that sounds a little too this or that you're screaming here and that's a little off-putting so i wish you would sing it like this and and it was just really hard to uh express myself completely and purely

with too many cooks in the kitchen so when um the band thing had run its course and i was finally alone i was able to do everything i had always wanted to do and combine all the genres that I loved, whether it was rap music, dance music, metal, punk, hardcore, even a little bit of country or just straight up pop. I felt like the training wheels were off and it was just one of the most exciting times of my whole life. And then that was the start of AWOL Nation. So with that, I started producing myself as well, because I had, I wanted, I had a bit of a idea of what it could sound like, but I hadn't heard it done just yet the way it kind of sounded in my head, I always thought, well, why can't you kind of scream, you know, melodically or over a beat

that sounds like it's a hip hop sample. And then, you know, in the second verse, bring in real drums and have real guitar in the chorus, but there's a synth and that's the norm now. But it wasn't at the time when our first record, well, my first record came out. Is that Sail? Did you just describe sale that does describe sale yeah there are other songs that that fit that description too but but for sure that one and um you know when you turn on the radio

today you could hear six different sales you know which is a whole other story so to answer your question i mean i think really it is for me for me, it's songwriting. And I just figured out how to produce and record also. And I found that that was the best way for me to complete my vision as a songwriter. So yes, I'm a producer too, and I play all these instruments, but I only did that for survival of the song ideas I had in my head. So I consider myself a songwriter first and foremost. Okay. Or an idea maker, I guess. So you have ideas in your head, right?

And then how do you tap into those ideas? There's two parts. There's connecting to the ideas or creating the petri dish for them to grow and then the expression of them. So far, we've talked a lot about the expression of them. What do you do to cultivate the tapping into the ideas? Well, you have to have the means to do so, for starters. I don't know if I know what that means. Well, you have to know how to record.

See, I'm going a different direction. Okay. I was going to like, let's say you didn't have a microphone, but you're going to do something in front of, well, it doesn't have to be anybody, but you're going to compose the idea. How do you tap into the idea? How do you internally compose the idea or connect the idea? I'm often asked if I get writer's block and I, and I don't because I don't write when there's no idea there. I never sit down and go, I got to write a song today because there's in my phone,

which I don't have on me. I like to leave out of the studio whenever I can, unless there's some sort of thing I'm waiting for. I mean, I have, I would say, just under somewhere near a thousand ideas. Song ideas, video ideas. And I'm not sure which ones are most important, but they're all there. And it's really a matter of time for me. For example, right now we've been entering kind of a really exciting new phase of, of me doing, um, and recording other, other, uh, collaborating with other artists. And it's been kind of a weight

off my shoulders to not have all the attention on myself and help other people and you know let let another team go work that song uh for another artist and um so i i'm sure this isn't the answer you're looking for but right now it's a matter of time for me and and compartmentalizing somehow which ideas are most important or fitting for that moment that I'm in. Actually, that's what I, where I thought you're going to go. So we've got this ancient brain in modern times. We've got a compression of time every day and to create enough space. That's where I thought you're going to go is that I need to create space to listen. I need to create space to internally compose or to do, I don't know, I don't know what

you do, but for me, it's like, there's a, I need space to internally connect, to notice the streams and themes and the nodes that are connecting to maybe create something new to me, which would be creativity. And then if it's new to others, then it's innovation, right? The simplicity between those two words. And I think the more space that I can create, the easier it is for me to connect to that internal authentic wanting and whatever wants to be expressed. But the reason I asked that question of you openly is because I don't know where you're going to go. And I think what I heard you say is, I don't force it. When it's there, it's there.

And then my job is to schedule enough time. I don't know if schedule is the right word. Sure, it is. It is. It's also a curse because it never shuts off. Because I love music so much. It's like I feel... Do you have OCD?

Probably. I probably have so much. It's like I feel – Do you have OCD? Probably. I probably have a little bit of everything. Obsessive about getting it just right? Well, who's to say what's just right either? So that's a lot of people like my dad. I think you get to say it. Sure. But other people go, just finish this, man.

I'm sure it's great. I'm like, well, but it's not right yet. I mean, I'm sure it would be just fine to most listeners but i i'm not making music for only your average listener on the radio or someone driving around i'm making music that will also blow my mind because i'm such a huge nerd music fan that i want to to um shock myself and hear something. Because I'm able to, I'm pretty good at erasing my mind from whatever I'm working on and sleeping on it, for example. Because you can only hear the same song so many times before. Eric and I do a good job.

Eric's my engineer partner. And we do a pretty good job of going, dude, my ears are burnt. This is over. Let's just, whatever. We've done enough. I'm going to go surfing or go for a run or whatever and reset. And then in the morning, I could have that first coffee, which is always the best coffee of the day or pretty much the best moment,

and give myself a test. And I could do a pretty good job of it. The melody will creep in my head. I'm like, don't do it. Don't do it. No, I can actually listen to another song in my head to not think about my current song I'm working on, if that makes any sense. So I could cut to like, let's say I have this new song I'm working on currently today, which is I am actually, and we worked on it a lot yesterday. So when I walked out of here, it was just on repeat in my head. So I had to think of a Dolly Parton song because that's, I don't know why, but that's what came to me.

I'm like, okay, let's think of a Dolly Parton song. So I turned off the melody of my song in order to give it a fair chance this morning with a fresh listen. So, of course, it creeped back, in the middle of sleep and stuff. And I just tried to tune it out and switch to some other thought or, or, uh, another song. And then this morning, uh, when I was driving, I waited to the perfect moment on my way to the beach. And the other thing is driving to check the waves. That's a really great opportunity and space, as you mentioned,

where I can work a lot. I could listen to a current mix and figure out exactly what's wrong with it or what's right with it. And so in the case of this current song I'm working on, I heard it this morning fresh and I was really happy with it, but there's a lot more work to do. And I figured out structurally how it could be better and, uh, then just turn it off and didn't try to listen to it too much. I'm past the honeymoon phase of my own creations. When you're younger, I think that, that you listen to your own recordings too much in your ego gets a little bit in the way and you're so excited that

you're doing it. But now all these years later, the honeymoon phase is a bit lost, thank God. So now I can listen only when I need to and enjoy it when it's done and give myself enough space and time to be able to judge the song fairly and help it grow to the place it needs to be. And these are all rules I've created myself, I realize, but it's just the way it's got to be. Are you self-critical or self-positive as you go through that process? Well, I mean, you know, very critical. You are?

Very critical. Because I know I have a fair amount of confidence that if I'm recording it, it's going to be good because I have a lot of bad ideas. It's important to have bad ideas and write bad songs because then you know the difference. If you think every song you create is good, it's like you mentioned working with the Seahawks earlier. If they lose a game, they're probably not going to...

Well, you'll look to the tape to see what you did wrong and then try to not repeat those mistakes. So I think it's similar. Yeah. We want to make new mistakes. Yeah. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day.

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your first order that's calderalab c-a-l-d-e-r-l-a-b.com finding mastery all right so you're self-critical now is that self-critical nature like that's not good enough damn it let's go like that's not good enough or is it god Let's go. Like, that's not good enough. Or is it, God, I suck. I'm never going to get this done. I never feel that way. So it's not like biting, cutting. It's more like, you know, there's certain habits or certain, certain parts of my voice that I hear every once in a while that feel like a step backwards into my past that I felt like I'd grown out of. And that can be a little bit disappointing if I'm like, God, that sounds like that one record back in the day that I hated. And I'm fairly confident that my very favorite artists were extremely

self-deprecating when it came to their music and performances live. So, you know, and I think the people that think that their shit's just great, no matter what they do, it shows to me and I feel like it's fraudulence in a lot of ways. God, I've got 15 questions that I want to ask you, but the fraudulent word threw me off. How do you recognize a fraud? I think you just feel it. I mean, there's a handful of artists that are very successful, but it's McDonald's.

You know, it's music for people who don't love music, really. They like it, and it's fun to do, and they feel like it's part of life. But it's just like someone going to McDonald's and eating it, and it tastes good, and they feel like they ate a meal. But they're going to be hungry shortly after that, and they're going to feel like hell, probably. Or maybe they won't even know because they haven't seen the alternative option to eat healthy. Yeah. Where do you go when you speak? Because you've got, you make eye contact at the end of every sentence.

And then, but when you're composing your thoughts, it's like you're really working to find the right word. What is that internal experience like? I choose my words as carefully as I can because my dad's a great speaker. So he's probably my biggest influence and I'm doing it right now. Now I'm conscious of it because you – It's like when you say eye contact and then it's like – Yeah.

Now all of a sudden it's funky. Well, I'm sure you're more interested in what I'm going to say than eye contact. So I just – I want to take the second to, I've never thought about this, but I could be intimidated. But if I was just looking at you the whole time, as I was thinking, and you do the same thing, you look up a little bit, you know, when you're thinking and it's, it's really important to, and you have nice blue eyes, which kind of matched my, my whole setup. Um, but I'm also going into the, you know, the, the, the documentary of my life in a lot of ways that I'm kind of going back there and I want to give you as authentic and, and good of an answer as I can for these, um, thoughtful questions that you're asking.

Okay. And it's not like you're going in and critiquing. no, no, no, no. God, that's stupid. That's stupid. That's stupid. You're hunting for the most articulate word. I think so. And the best way to convey the message I'm trying to convey at the time. Okay. How about this? And also not sound like a dumbass in a lot of ways. So that's the critical piece.

Right. Okay. And then how do you... I have a big mouth. So if I'm hanging out with friends and not as much as before, but I've definitely said things that I've regretted on multiple occasions or been kind of buzzed and woke up the next day going, oh my god, I told my buddy Chris some crazy thing about whatever, his surfboard or his ex-girlfriend or whatever it may be. So I don't want to do that, especially when it's being recorded. What are you afraid of? In life? Yeah. Because what if you sound like a dumbass? Is that critique of others? Is that a big one?

It bothers me when people sound somewhat uneducated in their answers, especially musicians and artists and using double negatives and those kind of things. That bothers me. But this is a podcast. It's a totally different operation. So you can't be distracted by really music or or anything else or a visual so it's it's i think it's important to take your time with an answer i do a lot of radio interviews and and when you're at these stations there it's pretty hyped and it's the same questions over and over a lot of the time like where'd you get your band name lots of questions about sale

obviously and there's it's like a shot clock you know they know how much time they have and they rush you so any chance i get to have an experience like this i'd like to take my time with with the answers i love it yeah so your purpose is clear or part of your purpose is clear artistically expressing what's inside. But then you've got this dual track, which is trying to understand, like, what are we doing? Kind of. What are we doing? Sometimes I want to shake people and go and ask them that exact question.

What it's all for. the the authenticity of of um sound in a lot of ways and and trying to create my own path in music that that's a really big deal to me as well i never wanted to be i'd rather i'd rather fail trying something new and innovative and forward thinking musically than copy someone else just to have a hit song. And that's a really big deal to me. Yeah. As someone that appreciates your music, I can feel like I can hear the thread between your music. I didn't know your music before A. Will Nation.

Yeah. And there's no need to. There's some moments. You could see some potential, but it's an unrealized thought. Okay. So the, but your latest album, Here Come the Runs, is very different than your other stuff, but the thread's still in there. Right.

Thank you for noticing the thread. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Oh, well, thank you for- The sweater that we're trying to create. Okay. So- That's a Weezer reference by the way there was a

sweater song with a weezer one of my i love weezer if there is uh a tendency anxiety or depression i thought you were going to say anxiety earlier that you'd lean on that side of yeah i think they're the same i mean i think they really i mean different expressions you would say something awesome to describe the difference, but I get depressed over anxiety and I get anxiety when I'm depressed, you know? No, it's the same mechanics in the brain, but very different expressions. So anxiety is an excessive worry about could go wrong, but it's like the cup is too full. And then depression is just a deep sadness about like, it's never going to work out. It's not working out now. And I kind of suck. And it's like an empty cup and not a good way. And so the different expressions, similar mechanics.

Yeah. Anxiety is a funny thing. So you have both? Sure. I don't know people who don't. Not burdened by it though? Sometimes, you know but i have to work through it you know i feel like another goal of mine as i get older especially is to mature a lot you know there's this peter pan syndrome with a lot of artists um and a lot of a lot of men today i think i, I shouldn't say men, just humans, really, where people don't want to grow up and face reality.

But, you know, life throws some pretty harsh daggers your way and you have to figure out how to deal with those. And so sometimes I do, if I'm guilty of anything, it's that, I shouldn't say guilty. If there's something I'd like to change, it would probably be that sometimes I'm bracing for the impact of that big event, like, you know, losing a family member or, you know, the big moments of life. The ones that really throw you against the wall and challenge you to show the most character you can. Well, sometimes I think like, wow, everything's going so good. What's going to happen? When's that tsunami going to just blow everything up kind of deal? That would lead to some depression. Yeah, kind of.

But then I realize everything's okay. And just when the time comes to have to deal with that, hopefully I'll have the tools equipped for doing such. How did you describe big moments? We're going to have to roll the tape. I think you said it reveals your character in so many ways. It's a a moment that tests yeah what you're made of those big moments i mean i've had a few of them but i can't say that they've been as severe as as others for sure i mean i've heard some some really deep uh challenging stories you know for people so i never want to paint the picture that that i've had it so bad or when I know others have had it arguably much worse, you know, and I've had to deal with, with major, major, um, obstacles in life, you know?

So you're using mechanically, you're using the idea that something tragic or yeah, game changing could take place. So you use that to almost sharpen your sword now to be more connected. Sure. I guess I'd never thought of it that way, but that, that is, that seems accurate. So I've, I, I have a reaction to the phrase, uh, big moments. And so I'm going to share that with you. Not that you need to ever adopt anything I'm thinking, but the idea that there's big moments, I feel have been a salacious attention grabbing tactic by ESPN, NBC, you know, people saying defining moment, defining play, big moment, big game, big, whatever, whatever, where actually there's no bigger moment than the one right now.

You're right. So, so, but the mechanical structure that you put it through, which is, okay, I'm going to die one day. Your wife, my wife, our loved ones will die one day. I don't know before or after each other or before or after ourselves, right? But they're going to die. Hopefully us first so we don't have to deal with this quote big moment at all right but okay so we can use that idea to sharpen our sword to be more connected now because that's the only thing that we're going to be able to do well and so if you take away this moment there is no moment right if you remove yourself from this moment there is no moment so the quality of this moment is defined by how well you're in it and if you can't be in it we got some problems and that's something that that I'd like to get better at for sure. I've been asked a lot about the, I guess, the timing of the success I've had and how it felt.

And when did I first hear myself on the radio or when did it seem like it was all happening? And it never felt that way to me because I was, as they say, stop and smell the roses. I didn't smell any roses. I just kind of kept my head down and, you know, wanted to continue to grow as a songwriter and as a man, honestly. I can only really see some of the building blocks to get to where I'm at today as I look back at the movie in my mind, this documentary that's can, you know, still be made today. Are there phases of mastery that you would be able to articulate looking at your own life or others that are masterful? I would say that, uh, I would say that I'm still chasing it.

You know, I, I could never agree that I'm a master of some sort. Although if you're to read Malcolm Gladwell, I guess I would be a master if i were to follow his rules well so he borrowed research from anders erickson who we had on this podcast a phenomenal conversation and anders uh surprisingly said malcolm gladwell never contacted him the 10 000 hour idea right so well i'm on 20 000 hours yeah i'm just kidding i don't know i've not yeah i did some sort of math and I'm like, well, it's been over that, I think. For you. Since I was in sixth grade or whatever, third grade playing guitar.

What Dr. Erickson was really talking about is that a deliberate, nauseatingly challenging deep focus at 10,000 is a minimum threshold. That sounds great. Yep. Now we're starting to talk about mastery and deep expertise around 20. I think a lot of so-called masters in the field of art, I guess, would probably not consider themselves masters. I always think I could write a better song. I always, uh, looking for, um, some sort of challenge or a new way to approach music. Um, I've never repeated myself with production. Uh, you could argue that of course, but from where I'm sitting, I've never repeated myself or use the same old tricks on a song. Um, never looked back on the first record as that was a breakout success.

And that's really important. That keeps me alive, honestly, to continue to try to jump off the cliff, I guess, in a lot of ways with music. Was Sail a masterpiece? Well, I think that I could answer both sides to that. Absolutely, kind of. Well, then it had to come from someone. Yeah, sure. Unless it was an accident.

But what makes it arguably a masterpiece is the imperfections of the song. It's not tuned. I never tune vocals. So most music you listen to, whoever the singer is will sing, and then they'll put them through what's called auto-tune. And so a computer takes their voice and makes it perfectly in pitch. So there's hope for me. Yes, exactly. So you could.

I mean, I can make any of you guys sound in key. And I'm not saying everybody uses it, but most people on the radio do. I won't do that because... Fraudulent. it's fraudulent. That's not someone's real voice you're hearing. And that means a lot to me, you know, and I can hear it. I can hear the tuning on vocals and most artists, you know, I should explain that some artists use it as a sound and that's different. That kind of cool it's got this uh sort of robotic sound that that can be kind of cool and melodic and intentional that's different but but to sing and you know i don't know when that became the norm and people felt yeah yeah just tune it i just

sang it once just tune it and um i have a real hard time with that and i'll probably just you know bum a lot of people out that use that, but it's just the truth. So Back to Sail, there's some notes in there that I'm singing that are a little flat or a little sharp, and the rawness of that recording and the way the vocals came across made it so relatable, I think, to people who ended up loving that song. So my wife last night, she goes, where are you going tomorrow?

I told her I was coming up here. I didn't say. I said, oh, let me show you. So I turned on our player and turned it on. And when your first beat comes in, she goes, oh. Right. It's like ACDC's iconic riff or The, ACDC is iconic riff or, you know, the bell or whatever. Like, so you have that, that signature thing. It's a cool thing to have one of those.

Yeah. And so, and it wasn't an accident. It was an accident to me. Yeah, it was just, well, I mean, my intentions were to, are to always to, to do the best I can. Right. Is that, is that a guiding principle to do the best I can, right? Is that a guiding principle, to do the best I can? Yeah, I never settle. I'll never settle. And when I know I could do a little bit better, I won't sleep that night and will come and I'll be like, okay, let's reopen this up

and figure out a better way to approach this. One of my mentors asked me this question, similar based on the response that I gave him that you just said to me. And he said, Mike, when's the last time you had a sense of peace? Yeah, that's a good question, right? It's a heavy question. So here we're in, we're in this like cafe and he leans into me and he says, you know, and I, I said something similar to you. And when he said it, it's like, he looked right through me. My body just heated up and like

everything about me was like, Oh shit, that's what I'm missing. What's up, Gary? Appreciate you. Right. Yeah. So thank, so for you, and you might not have that experience at all, like, but where, where does peace fit into your experience as being a man? The last time I had peace, I mean, you know, I'll have little moments of that. And that's probably the most blissful feeling you could have. Or I guess I could use the word happy. But a lot of the time it's when I surfed and got really good waves and physically pushed myself in a way where I'm almost humbled that I was able to catch a wave that was a bit out of my league or a little bigger than I was comfortable.

And in surfing, the ultimate goal is to get a tube or get barreled where you pull into the wave as it curls over you and it spits you out in a lot of cases. It's this moment in time that will never repeat itself. Each wave is different. And you were able to catch this wave and position your body in a way that it puts you into God's natural tunnel for a second. And there's nothing like it.

It's better than, and some people may get upset, but it's better than sex. It just is. It's better than, and some people may get upset, but it's better than sex. It just is. It's better than, well, let's just say it's really close to sex, you know, and sex with your wife only, not your wife, but my wife. Thank you for that. Our wives, you know what I'm saying? You have to be careful around your home. And then it's very parallel to the highest possible feeling of music and connectivity with either an audience or that moment when you're creating a song and your own creation gives you chills and you feel like you're doing something important, this height of excellence. A lot of time when I'll test a song in my car and I feel like, and this is a bit vulnerable to share, but I'll just share it with you.

When I feel like I've achieved, it's always the same feeling. I've felt it, luckily, multiple times where I feel like I can't do any better. That is a form of peace to me because I can rest in that moment and go, wow, I can't do any better. And I get a little bit choked up and sometimes a tear comes out. A lot of times the tear doesn't actually roll down my cheek,

but it's there in my eyes, sockets, you know? And that's the greatest. And then I notice I'm driving way faster than i should be because i'm just flying on the song there's a certain kind of power a song can have especially my music's a little bit more aggressive and has a certain kind of power to it even when it's it's tender that there'll be like a a subliminal heaviness to it or emotional weight that it carries. And in those moments of realization with a song, I think about, and this all happens in a split second, but I think about the journey along the way, all the, well, the 20,000 hours, the ups, the downs, the heartbreak,

the doubters, the heaviness of the people who care about me and that believed in me, especially when I can't believe they did still believe in me. And whether it's some of my best friends or my parents. And so the weight of all these moments kind of come in and are lifted off when I feel like I've achieved, well, let's call it mastery or greatness with a song that I've created. And it's usually months or a year before the general public are even going to hear this song. And those are the best moments of music. That and then performing the songs live and hearing an audience or a sea of people sing back that little moment back to you.

When really I was just writing on a pen and a pad some thoughts. What a cool thing. And getting barreled is as epic as that is, believe it or not. So I feel a little closer to what it must be like for a rock star because i grew up surfing as well cool and you described it eloquently that's exactly what it's like and there's a it's hard to not be cheesy when you describe it as barreled you know and and but there's a sound in there too that can't oh god there's a sound that is it's quiet weirdly too even when it's loud and rumbling and i've been lucky to get a lot of barrels i'm not the best

surfer but i've got a lot of barrels spent a lot of time in there you know you gotta put yourself right in the most dangerous place of the wave and it's most peaceful and all that very zen stuff at a certain point i realize oh i'm never going to be able to do airs or huge tail slides fins free tricks and and i'm not very flexible um you know i'm not as light as a lot of these guys that, that can just throw themselves in the most radical positions. I'm not insane. And I do have fear when, when the waves are a bit out of my league, but I'm still surfing bigger ways than I ever thought I would growing up. But I, at a certain point realized I'm going to just really focus on tube riding and, and try to surf waves where I can, I can, and can. And there are some tubes that are way out of my league and sort of below sea level drops. I'm not the fastest to my feet, but when it's all right

and it all lines up, I feel comfortable in a barrel at this point in my life. And that's probably just as big of an accomplishment to me as being a platinum artist. Can you take me back to wherever you were when you had to convince your dad that you were homeless and broke and the future was bleak, so to speak, that on paper, I guess it was, it would look bleak. What was that like? Can you tell, share that story? Sure. I was just talking about this with someone recently. I remember I was about to be 30, you know, and this all happened for me later. And I feel pretty grateful for that. Maybe I would have, you know, been, I'm certain, very immature with all of it, not knowing how to handle it necessarily. But I've been in a couple of signed bands before.

And then in addition to, you know, all these other punk bands and, you know, earlier bands that I, that I was in. And there'd been a couple opportunities where it seemed like a couple of labels and there were interested. And at this point I was considered damaged goods to most of the industry. You know, no one really wanted to give me another chance cause I had already had two pretty good chances. And so that, that'll happen. You know, it's a, I can liken it to a wide receiver who had been cut twice. Had talent, was fast, had good hands, but had been cut.

Maybe some substance abuse, off the field issues. I was that to the music industry. Because I had made some mistakes. I failed to mention throughout this whole thing that I had made some serious mistakes and acted in ways that I'm not proud of. Hot-headed and young and thought I could do no wrong. We thought we were the clash and we could just smash stages and all of that. So sorry to give you such a long answer to this question about convincing my parents or my dad, but I remember, uh, the setting is we're in his backyard in a hot tub, which is a funny thing. He's an Italian guy and he's pretty hairy and, um, he'll kill me for saying that, but he's still a handsome fellow at the age of 72.

But, um, so we're sitting there and he, he had to have that sort of father son moment with me where he, um, kind of checked me and, and asked, he let me know that there was no way he could help me. Um, and there was no money to share in sort of that I was on my own, which I already was on my own, but he, he, um, I think he was just letting me know in case I was thinking of asking him for help or anything like that, that, that, uh, that he wasn't going to help me or couldn't help me. And, and looking back now, I bet he could have, if I would have said, dad, I'm in debt. Can you help me pay off my debt? And you know, all this, I think he had the I think he had the means to do so but he wasn't going to as a lesson in a lot of ways so he he asked me if I

still felt like music was was worth pursuing because he wanted me to become an adult and I really still was, I was still in that Peter Pan zone, uh, I think. And, um, and my answer was, I can't tell you for sure that it's all going to work out, but I know that it's what I'm best at and it's what I understand most. And so, um, I don't think that I can quit. I don't think I can give up now. And it was emotional.

You know, it was an emotional moment because it was his way of saying, I still believe in you, but come on. What are we going to do here? You know, is it time to punt and go figure something else out or not? And I didn't have a backup plan. So I just stuck with it and it worked out. The most emotional I get really over everything is thinking about how proud they are of me. So we go on stage, I got a local show in LA and stuff, and people are going crazy. And I think about them. It's hard to not choke up on stage. Do you let it flow or do you hold it back?

I let it flow, but you know, you got to sing. And if you're crying and singing, it sounds funny. Your voice trembles. And, you know, for someone who doesn't know, they'd be like, oh, this guy just sounds like shit, you know? So I have a responsibility for the people you are, how you see the world, how you understand events in life, how you deal with things. And yeah, thank you. Thank you. On a last kind of guiding note, are there any mental skills that are more important than the others to you? And, you know, being calm, deep focus, mental imagery, having clear vision or goals of where you're going.

Well, discipline is huge. Discipline on whatever it is you're doing, you know. What do you do when it gets hard? I have great stamina and a great will, so I just, I don't quit whatever it is I'm doing. But what do you do internally when it gets hard for you? Well, I think I read an interview or saw an interview with someone in the Navy SEALs, I believe that he was talking about how he was describing pain, but he didn't use the word pain. He said, yeah, I experienced this burning sensation. I think he was, I think it was some of those tortured, honestly,

something horrible, let's just say. And he described it as a burning sensation in his arm rather than this horrible pain. And, uh, that, that through the, the, the guy interviewing him off and, and I thought that was so neat that he just described it as, uh, you know, circumstantially he was able to compartmentalize it as a burning sensation rather than, oh my God, this is the end of the world. So I try to apply that in a way smaller and less meaningful way to, to a lot of the things. So if, if, if I'm struggling, let's say I'm going a long run or I'm paddling or it's getting hard on tour or whatever it may be, I try to, um, I try to disconnect, you know, the, the physical pain and not think about it. Cool. Discipline. Deep. Aaron, thank you.

No problem. Yeah. I can't wait to see what you create next. Thank you. Me too. I've got principles and I can go on and on and on and on and on about talking about principles, whether it's on stage or whatever, it doesn't matter. And I like the creativity and spontaneity to get, you know, around and talk about what I'm thinking and feeling in that moment, uh, relating to the audience. I love that. That's, that's a fun experience for me. And I purposely don't know anything other than my first sentence that I'm going to say, and then the X number of principles I'm going to talk about. And then, but in this moment I had to, I was challenged, I had to write it.

It had to be tight and crisp because we're going to print it basically. And so I was writing, writing, writing, and it was okay, but it did not have enough of an off access counterculture appreciation for how humans become themselves. And if we're not careful, that all sounds really cheesy. Like become your best. That sounds really cheesy. Of course. Do your best. It sounds cheesy. But when you say it, it sounds cool. But it's just my beard, man. So, um, so I was like, I got, I put it away. I was like, that's not right. I'm not coming from the right place. So, you know, where I went to sail. Oh, nice nice on loop at about two or three you know volume and on loop and it it was the background for every word that was

written the the the online course just spilled out of me in about I don't know three or four hours that's really cool yeah for sharing that yeah for sure it's amazing how much music can it well that song obviously, obviously, is the elephant in the room, obviously, a lot of the time when I'm talking to people about my stuff. And it daily blows my mind how massive of a song that is. And that anyone on an airplane has heard that song. The lady next to me or the guy in the back,

they've heard that song. It's inescapable. On Spotify, I just looked the other night it was like almost 500 million yeah and it would be more honestly but uh it came out right before spotify was happening so today would be like close to a billion had it happened a couple years later yeah it's crazy congratulations on your body work your success and your approach to life. And thank you for your time. Anytime. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

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