Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Abby Wambach, Olympian, Activist, Author

Episode Date: May 29, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Abby Wambach, a two-time Olympic gold medalist, FIFA World Cup Champion, and the highest all-time international goal scorer for male and female soccer players.She is an activist for equality and inclusion, and author of the #1 New York Times bestseller WOLFPACK as well as the New York Times bestseller Forward: A Memoir.Abby is co-founder of Wolfpack Endeavor, a training program that is revolutionizing leadership development for women in the workplace and beyond.She also sits on the board of Together Rising, an all-women led nonprofit organization that has revolutionized grassroots philanthropy by raising over $16 million for women, families, and children in crisis.In this conversation we discussion everything from what drove Abby to be great, how she’s adjusted to life after soccer, and why she cares so deeply about creating a equal playing field for everyone._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And the whole idea behind these conversations behind this podcast is to learn from people who are highly switched on, have dedicated their life efforts to mastery, to really going the distance to explore uncharted territories. And what we're trying to do is sort out like how do they organize their inner world? How do they use their thoughts to make sense of the world around them, to make sense of themselves, how they fit in the world, how they explain events. We also want to dig to understand the mental skills that they use to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms,

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She's made a dent in the sport world for sure. She's a two-time Olympic gold medalist, FIFA World Cup champion, and the highest all-time international goal scorer for male and female soccer players. Flat out, she's done it at the world stage, world leading. This is a joy to have this conversation with her. And she goes beyond sport. So she's used sport to understand the human condition, understand her experience in sport and translate those insights to others. Now her primary lens is on equality and inclusion. She's the author of the number one New York Times bestseller, Wolfpack. It's a quick little deep read full of stories and insights and her point of view about

how to help people become better, specifically women. Abby is also the co-founder of Wolfpack Endeavor. It's a training program that is revolutionizing leadership development for women. She also sits on the board of Together Rising, an all-women-led nonprofit organization that has revolutionized grassroots philanthropy by raising over $16 million for women, families, and children in crisis. Now, in this conversation, we discuss everything from what drove Abby to be great, how she's adjusted to life after soccer, and why she cares so deeply about creating an equal playing field for everyone. So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Abby Wambach. Abby, how are you? I'm so good. How are you, man? Great. So thank you for this

conversation. Same to you. You know, I think that especially with people who, you know, we don't do the same thing, but I think we admire very similar parts of the things that we do. And so much of it, there's so much overlap. And I love the fact that you come at it from a totally different perspective. And there's so much to learn. There's so much to gain from conversations like this. So thanks for having me. Great. I'm stoked on it. And your body of work speaks for itself. Like you have changed the game. You've influenced

generation of people. You have demonstrated courage through vulnerability. And so not only are you extraordinary on the field, but your life speaks to that same extraordinary ways off the field. So like before we get going, legitimate congratulations on a life well lived, and you're only halfway through or one quarter of the way through. So yeah. Before we go backwards, what is next for you? When you think about the, you know, you're not nearly question to answer for, for athletes who've dedicated their whole lives to this thing, to this one pursuit. Um, I started a leadership company that I'm really proud of, really excited about signing client clients right now in the corporate world to help women achieve high levels of success in the corporate world. Um, you know, my belief

system, this is so bizarre, because I'm very fascinated with corporate culture, and how that needs to change in a lot of ways for us to really achieve any kind of level of equality that we really dream of. You know, people don't think about it, but the amount of products that get put out into the world, the amount of ideas that you even have about the world are created through the corporations that you support, that you buy, that you participate in. And if not enough women or marginalized folks are sitting on those boards, sitting in levels of leadership to make decisions about what kind of products and what kind of things you're putting out into the world, then there's going to be a skewed vision and a skewed product and a skewed culture that's going to enable

this inequality that we see. So that's kind of the way in which I figured out how I want to try to change the world in the best way that I possibly can in my own small way. So that's kind of long term, like big dream that I have in the short term. You know, I have a family, I have three kids. I'm almost two years married now. So I've just been kind of settling into family life. I just put out a book called Wolfpack, which has been really great and fun. And, um, you know, just trying to explore the things that I never had the chance at doing because I was so singularly

focused on playing soccer for so many years. Um, and there's a terrifying realization when you retire about that, like, what am I going to do now? But I think I'm past the terror of it. And I think I'm into this kind of child's mind of exploring the world and trying to figure out what it is that moves me and things that challenge me, things that, um, will make me the best person I possibly can become. And, um, and so that's kind of what I'm in pursuit of right now. You know, being an athlete makes me know that I can have a real vision and I can process and I can work hard and I can struggle and I can succeed and I can fail and still achieve a level of success that feels good to me.

So I'm kind of in the R&D period of my life where I'm just trying to redefine and re-figure out what it is that I want and what is the most beautiful and truest version of myself I can become. Jeez, I mean, there's so much in there, you know, like, okay, so where do we start with that? Is that the fact that you're in the R and D phase and you're trying to retool and figure out what's next for you? Is that phase, is this phase challenging? Is it, does? Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yes. Like, there are days where I feel like it's like a silly question. Is it challenging? Yeah. I mean, I know it is. But like, what, what is the texture of the challenge for you? How do you deal with that challenges is?

Yeah, so this is gonna sound so ridiculous, but I have to say it. As a pro athlete, I woke up every day and I had a mission of just getting better every day was part of my pursuit. And then when you strip that away and you find yourself at home where there's all these parts to the actual playing of the game that were being taken care of by somebody else, whether it be a general manager or equipment manager, and like all of these things, calendar, schedule, like all of the stuff that allowed me just to focus on getting better every day. But when you're no longer in that environment, you know, and this was happening for me for 15 years, that somebody else was dealing with all of the minutiae of, in some ways, my whole life. So I had to relearn how to be a human being that didn't have somebody to do all of these things. What a great insight. So we had early days, we, in the company that I was building with Coach Carroll, we had a CEO that came in and he was a serial entrepreneur, super, super aggressive in understanding the entrepreneur space, meaning that you got to make great decisions, got to make them

fast. Like, you know, I had a great framework and we only hire Olympians, sports psychologists and Olympians, and they were great. Like, and then, then we started to realize, oh, you know what? Everything was developed for them, really smart, hardworking, get right on the edge. And so we had to figure that out early days, which I think that I'll take it all day long because of the extraordinary understanding of what it takes to become one's best is so rare that if we can just backfill with the right structure to help people figure that out, like, and I love it. And for you to say that I've watched it for the last six years for folks, that same struggle. And so, yeah, but on the other side, there's an incredible asset.

Totally. And you got to, there's a breaking through, there's a, there's a humility and a humbling that has had, has needed to happen for me that I, um, at one calendars on his iPhone. And I was like, so you have something that you have to do every single day. And he's like, yes, I do every single day, whether it's kids stuff or work stuff, I have something to do every single day. And I just thought, well, that's interesting because in my my mind, as an athlete, sport, like the game itself was the fun part. And like any kind of sponsorship or dinner or something that I had to do was work. But now I had to transition and I had to like reframe what work was and what it really meant. It was like this thing that took me away from the game that I love to play. This thing that was kind of like something I didn't always want to do. And reframing that was really important.

And then finding the wins was huge for me. Figuring out and defining what a win was. Like defining what success means outside of the game because it's super black and white. Like winning is understandable when you are playing in a game, somebody wins, somebody loses, sometimes you tie, whatever. But in the business world and now in my life, like winning is totally different and defined in so many different ways in every different part of my life. That was really important for me.

But, but, but figuring out how to make a schedule and calendar my life, That was really important for me. But, but, but figuring out how to make a schedule and calendar my life, um, was a game changer and it helps me, um, compartmentalize the parts of my day, which, which when it gets scheduled, which the process of figuring it out, now that I have this calendarized vision, every single time I've got something going on, I'm like in it and I'm 100% and I'm like the best in the world at it. But it has taken a long time to get here. That's exactly right. And the idea that you can reframe something, that's a heavy psychological term, right? Like that's a principle in psychology.

Have you done a bunch of internal work like with psychology or psychologists? Have you done some internal work? Yeah. I've gone and seen many therapists throughout my time. And then at the end of my career, I was really suffering. And during my dark ages, so to say, I had to see therapy. I sought therapy out. And I think that understanding yourself is the biggest game that we're all actually playing. Some people focus on it more than others, which is fine. Everybody gets to choose. That's the beauty of being a human being. I find that the more time I focus on myself and my internal self, the better outside external self I live. And when you sit in the chair and you're working with somebody,

and you're really working for awareness. You're working for different ways of understanding different ways of seeing things and saying things to yourself. What is the process that works best for you? Like, how do you sit up and show up in that chair? Like, what does that look like for you? I think like all athletes, once the light turned on, that this was a place in which I could go to to get better as a person, once I saw the dividends paying off after having done it one, two, three times, once I saw this different relationship I was having with myself and exploring that and finding different perspectives because I think ultimately that's what therapy is about, is searching for a new perspective so that you can become a better person. We all think we're one person, but when you actually figure out who you are, um, and who

you're evolving to be, um, you know, I think that when I dedicated myself to trying to get better, that, that encompassed every part of my life, regardless of, um, how hard it was, regardless of how confusing it was, regardless of, um, how crazy making it was at times. And I know that that word, I don't want to, uh, overuse that word. And I know that there's sensitivities around it, but, but I, I, I did feel like there was something wrong with me for a very long time. Um, and so I was, I was able to compartmentalize a lot of the parts of my life. I'm really good athlete.

This is who I am. But then when I started to actually peel back that onion, uh, and realize, oh, okay, like there is more to this, there's more to the, to, to the world and to life than, than just this game. Um, and I got to figure that piece out before, um, anything else will actually sort itself out. So there's three things as humans we can train. We can train our craft, which is the physical technical tools that we're working on.

We can train our body, which is our carriage to be able to allow us to do that thing. And then we can train our mind and that's it, right? Those are the three things. And I love knowing that you are, I don't know, arguably one of the best to ever play the game and the highest score, men and women included, that I love hearing you talk about the internal work and how hard it is. It is not easy and how rewarding it is. Because, you know, the way I know you, and that's from a public standpoint. And it's reinforced in this conversation is that you're really free. The public perception that I've been able to watch you when I watch you play is like super intense, like an alpha competitor. And I don't know how you'll respond to me saying

this, but you're really freed up. You've got space. And I wouldn't have guessed this much space. Did you have this much internal space when you were playing, or was it a different Abby? I think it was probably a different Abby. There's a selfishness that has to be a part of your life when you're a pro athlete, or at least that's what I'm trying to excuse some of my selfish behavior now. But in order to achieve that level of success, I think that all athletes have to, on some level, feel and know that their success has to and is related to how much they're actually delving into themselves, right? So like, in layman terms, it's like, everything that I did was about me. And it was,

I was so sick of it at the end, truthfully. But it was like, how much I'm feeding my body, how much I'm hydrating my body, how much I'm recovering my body, how much I'm training my body, how much I'm practicing and this technique and that technical ability. Like there's so much emphasis on myself. And that was what was required in so many ways to, to achieve high levels and not only achieve it, but sustain it. Like those are different things. Being great is accessible to, I think a lot of people, but consistently, I mean, that, that is the dream.

That's like what you're, you're in search of. And I think at the end of my career, I found myself feeling, well, first of all, I was, I was, I was abusing alcohol and prescription drugs. And so that wasn't great. So it was taking me down. I was self-medicating. I was terrified of, of, of retiring because I didn't know who I would be without this one identity that I had molded myself to become for so many years. Um, so I've done quite a bit of work. I think that, um, getting sober was probably the best thing that I could have ever done at the time for the transition I was heading into, into retirement. Um, and of course, for the rest of my life, um, figuring out and freeing myself up from that selfish inclination because it was like,

you have to actually, you have to like cut the rope between your current post career self and your past, you know, in soccer, like, there's just a lot of a lot of my, my mindset was about who I was and what, what it meant and what I was feeding myself. And it just, it didn't feel like how everyday people live and, um, live in a, in a good way. Yeah. Well, it, it looks really narcissistic, you know, like, right. And so, um, can you remember a time I'm not calling you narcissistic. I'm saying that like on the outside, in the non supportive world of that type of pursuit, that it ends up like 80s, 90s, early 2000s, when the pursuit was really that the zeitgeist, the cultural zeitgeist was about be your best. And we're starting to see that change, I think, in a good way, which is be your best so you can help others do the same. Right? So there is a change happening. And as hard a time as people are given millennials,

like they're standing up for something really important, which is saying, hey, listen, I might not work the same way you worked. I might not do my life the same way you did. But I'm certainly going to say, hey, you're kind of screwing up the planet a little bit. And you got this work thing really backwards. And it's not just you, right? There's a social community here that is really important. My social life is really important.

So we're starting to see some migration from it just being about me to it's like the life vest in the, when people are going down on a plane, like put your life vest on so you can help others. So that's starting to happen a little bit. But anyways, all that being said, what is it that was underneath the surface for you that was driving you to be, not only have peak experience, like one time get a win, but to sustain the high level that you wanted to sustain? What was underneath the surface for you? I had an interesting conversation when I first got on the national team. My national team coach at the time, April Heinrichs, she pulled me aside. We had a little meeting, kind of impromptu meeting before practice

one day. And she said, do you think you're training as hard as you possibly can train, using your complete physical self to be the best player for our team? And I said, honestly, no. And she asked me, she said, why? And I said, I'm afraid that I'm going to hurt one of my teammates. And she said, OK, I get it. She said, but if you don't play your best and you don't play your strongest as your strongest self, you're actually making them worse. And that was a really important moment for me. So in terms of like, what's like right underneath, I think that I've always been striving to be noticed by my mom and dad. And that has just like gone into the stratosphere. Um, you know, attention is kind of the thing. I'm a performer on the Enneagram. I'm a number, I'm a, I'm a I don't even know what that is number three and um and I think that that has driven me for all of my life but when you combine that with this unique ability for me to understand

on a deep level that I don't get noticed or I am not getting any attention unless we get attention. Like that's why people call me free, but I've also heard I'm confusing because I'm such a competitor but also a fierce leader and a fierce teammate. And the combination of those two things has, I think, really been kind of the backbone of and that's the way that I've lived and I was in my career. So I think the attention bit was the thing that kept me striving. And I think that the team component, which is sitting right next to that need for attention for me, was the thing that kind of kept me going for a long period of time. Cause as you get older, you know, your statistics probably come down a little, your output, because you're just, your body's aging. So you're not as

fast. You can't lift as much. You have to recover more. Hopefully your mind speeds up. But the reality is, is like the true joy that I was getting at the end of my career was like, how can I get all of these people to like, to unite together? How can I get 23 type A women who all think they're the best in the world? Rightfully so. How can I get them all on the same page? Like that is, that's nearly impossible. And you're talking about millennials, you know, people give millennials like the hardest time, but I'm like, hold on a second. Like, let's really talk about this. Aren't you on some level working in, in hopes to evolve our species in a better way? Aren't you in,

aren't you trying to gain, make gains and whatever it is, whatever industry we're talking about. So in the game of soccer, my, my dream was to leave the game better than I found it. Well, here I find myself at the end of my career looking at some of these young players coming in expecting more. And I'm like, yes, that's exactly what I spent my life trying to give them. And so now why as old people, why is it part of our culture to like be jealous? Cause essentially that's what people's that's what, that's what's really coming up from them is them being jealous of, of our, our younger generation, having more opportunity, expecting more with maybe doing a little bit of less work.

But I think that that is essentially like the true definition of evolution. Like, you know, I'm not a scientist, but that's, that's my dream. So when Alex Morgan came on board and she started expecting more, I'm like, hell yes, Alex Morgan. Like, you keep expecting more because that's the only way that the game grows. That's the only way we actually positively progress in the right direction. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. Momentous when it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters.

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Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FINDING20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. Okay. So let's go back to needing attention from your parents. What was the dysfunction?

And you don't have to get too deep into the weeds, but what was the dysfunction that was happening in your family that you were not seen and understood? Yeah. I think that I was the youngest of seven children. That's it. That's it. Yeah. I mean, there was no dysfunction.

It was just like – Well, that in and of itself is the crazy, you know, and not to be insensitive to that word, but seven kids? Crazy. It was really something. And, you know, as I get older like most people do um you know we we all have childhood traumas that we're we're trying to heal from for the rest of our lives and um as you get older you get a little bit more mindful because you have

your own children and you're like oh man I'm just trying to do the best that I can and I know that I see myself messing up here I see myself having made that mistake there. Like, why am I holding my parents to a completely different standard than I'm holding myself to? So there's an easing of some of these childhood traumas. But when you are the youngest of seven, when you are one of seven, because I'm sure my, all of my brothers and sisters feel this way on so many levels. There's just only so much attention that can go around. And it's the very thing that drove me to the level of success that I was able to achieve. So I can't sit here and be, you know, pouty about it all the time, because it also has brought me not just like soccer success, but like, it's also a drive for me in every area of my life, whether

it's becoming an author or a speaker or, you know, a founding, a co-founder of a business that I've just launched, like it's driving me in every way of my life. Um, and I'm just trying to make sure that I'm using it in a positive way rather than a negative. How much of a hole was that inside of you? Like early days? Was it? You know, I'm thinking about a. I had amazing experiences, but this deep desire for attention was a pretty big hole for me. And as I got older, my brothers and sisters started to leave for college. And that hole got bigger because I thought that this was the time now that I was going to get maybe some attention from my parents. But, like, they're adults, right? They have stuff going on. And, you know, my mom, she's amazing.

She drove me everywhere. She was a huge reason why I was able to, like, excel at soccer. And my dad worked quite a bit. Um, and so I didn't understand that stuff as a kid. So what was a hole, what, what probably was a big hole as a kid. Um, it might also not have felt or looked like a hole to another kid. It's just the way that it felt to me. So I'm also, that's really cool. That's great awareness. Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, I'm just conscious of my privilege too. I was able to play soccer and not worry about where I was going to get the next soccer ball.

My parents, they were middle class, upper middle class, and I was afforded a lot of opportunities and privilege that not many other kids had. So I also feel that it's important that though they were traumas to me, it might not necessarily be the stereotypical traumatic situation that every other person might find themselves into in their lives right now. What would you do when you felt that feeling like that? I'm not seen. I'm not, um, recognized. I don't feel important. What were the thoughts that would go with that? Yeah. I think that the way that I thought about it was, okay, I'm not being seen now. It's just going to be a matter of time.

Yeah. Um, I knew that I held onto this, this natural talent of athleticism. I was just, I was really, really, I was a great basketball player. I was a great soccer player. I knew that I had like this golden ticket and I also used it to my advantage when it was time, when I felt like I needed a little bit more attention. So I would just go out and score a bunch of goals. I'd go out and score a bunch of points on the basketball court. And so that was like the thing that like, that was able to check off that, that longing, that feeling of need. Right. And, and I think on a deep unconscious level or subconscious, I don't know which one. Um, I think that that is what terrified me the most about my impending retirement is how the hell am I going to ease this anxiety that probably rises or this need for attention? How will I get that?

What will I do, uh, uh to to solve for that so I'm more I'm doing personal work now trying to need less attention um to try to not be as big of a performer even at the freaking dinner table like our kids are talking and I feel the need that I've got to go on like and I gotta like go on this dissertation to be the person in the room like giving them a lecture on something and it's like so not my role it's my role to listen because your kids are literally talking at the table like no kids talk at the table like just listen Abby so that's what I'm doing now it's just working on listening working on um figuring it out figuring out how not to need that attention um but my wife is using it to her betterment. She's like,

babe, I saw that you unloaded the dishwasher. That is amazing. And I'm like, my brain lights up and I'm like, yes, that's exactly what I needed. And so I'll do it the next day, you know? And then she says, you don't need to do it for the reward of it. Like, it's just nice. Yeah. So when did you realize that you were an athlete and that your identity was rooted around execution of skill? When I was a kid, you know, being the youngest, I was just getting toted around to every athletic field you can imagine. And all of my brothers and sisters played sports. So I watched them. I didn't know it at the time, but I was like studying them. I was studying what they were doing, how they did it.

And one of the things that I maybe might be most skilled at is seeing other people fail and succeed and choosing what's going to work for me and what I'm going to not do, uh, at the same thing. Cause like I said, I like to do things my way. Um, and I think as a young athlete, you know, my first memories of, of being athletic was just being in the backyard. We had a swimming pool pool growing up. Um, and I had this courageousness, you know, I don't believe in the word fearless. I think that it's overused and actually it's not even true. Um, I think all people experience some level of fear. It's just some choose to go forward or not. Uh, and that's courage. And I think that I

was just this courageous little kid. I, I like to take risk. I like, you know, and it probably has a lot to do with why I probably over drank. Um, I like to have that shot of adrenaline or dopamine and, um, and, you know, thinking about myself as a young athlete, I was just like in full play all the time. I mean, even now as an adult, like I do work, but I try to make it fun on some level. I like challenge myself, like, can I get this house cleaned in 35 minutes? Something like that. It's, it's ridiculous, but like, I have to actually play games with myself around certain chores that I need to get done throughout the day. Um, and the same thing was happening as a kid. I was, you know, three, two, one in the basketball court out in the front yard. Um, always racing, always getting timed, doing something, you know, my brother and sisters,

they used to play a game with me, like Abby, can you go get my blanket upstairs and be back down here in 15 seconds? And they'd go, go. And they'd pretend to count and I would just go off running. So I was just like, prepping my whole life, it felt like to be on a team to be in a team environment. And actually, I think that all of that was in process and in preparation for what I'm doing now, which is one of the passions of my life where I'm creating teams for people who really have never been on a team consistently throughout their life with these leadership programs. So it's pretty fun. So it was really young when you identified with being an athlete. I don't know, I'm thinking like 10, 11, 12 in that range? I'm thinking like four, five, and six. Okay. So identity foreclosure is a concept where people, once they identify with a certain part of their life and they do at a certain part of their life,

and they do it at a young age, and all the attention that they get revolves around that thing, that it becomes really difficult when that thing no longer is available. And so your transition was hard. And your transition was hard because it was the great fear for you, right? This is the ultimate fear. Who am I without what I do? And did you know that you were choosing, you know, painkillers and alcohol? I don't know if there's other drugs involved, but, um, as a way to numb yourself from that, or was that not that, was that actually, is that me making too many assumptions there? I think I knew on a deep level that I was for sure trying to like self-medicate for that fear. But the level just above that, like I was just always in for a good

time. And I didn't experience hangovers like people experience normally that usually prevents them from coming back the next day. And, and so I think because of that, and this whole concept of rebellion that I took hold and had as a, as a, also an identity, um, I like to see how far I could push my body. You know, I was in one realm of my life, so, so strict and so regimented and, um, and so professional. And then when I was, when I was off, um, off seasons and times that I was with my friends, I w I would be able to like turn that volume completely down and turn the volume up so high in this other realm of my life. Um, but yeah, I do know that I was, I was terrified of trying to figure out who I was without soccer.

How did you do it? What did you do to figure that out? Yeah. I mean, one of the, not that I recommend this, but I got a DUI in 2016. And that was it. Light turned off in that world for me. I quit drinking. I quit.

I threw everything. I threw all the pills that I had out. Um, so you were not addicted. You were more interested in getting to the edge, pushing boundaries, you know, whether it was through structure or through risk-taking, like you were more interested in that. I think that at first I was more interested in pushing boundaries and taking it to an edge. Um, I think if I were to be really honest with myself, I lost control of when in which the times were I wanted to, and when in which times where I couldn't stop myself. Um, you know, cause I always was able to stop when I had soccer,

but you know, by definition, I was just like a high functioning alcoholic. I was like really good at scheduling out these times in which I could could go all in and in the party world of my life. So getting this this DUI was really important because it kind of woke me back up to like, oh, wait, what have I been doing for the last 15 years of my life? And what will I be doing in the next 15 years of my life? And if I kept down that path, my life would be completely different. Maybe I'm not even alive. Like I could see the path, and that didn't look very cool to me. So getting sober was in direct relation to the shame and embarrassment I felt from this DUI, which I still carry on so many levels. How do you deal with that shame? Well, talk about it, first of all. I think that secrets develop shame.

And shame is really big. You know, I grew up, I was born and raised Catholic. I'm now, I'm recovering Catholic is what I call myself. Does that mean that you're practicing Catholicism now? No, you're recovering from it. Yeah, I got it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And I joke about it, but, but, you know, you can imagine being a young gay kid inside the Catholic church and being like really confused by all the messages, the mixed messages that the church is sending in and trying to instill into me as a human being. Um, so, you know, I think that the way that I have been able to deal with the shame is by talking about it. Um, and the, the further I,

I get away from that period of my life, the more I am seeing the most beautiful, truest version of who I can become and who I am, who I've ever been. I actually just said to my wife the other day, I said, you know what's so cool about this sobriety thing? She said, what? And I said, I have nothing to be guilty about. And guilt is like, you know, it's like the precursor to shame. It's like, if you do something wrong, and like, what is wrong? How do you define right and wrong? Like, these are all like really heady philosophical debates that we could have. But at the time, I knew that what I was doing wasn't right. And separating myself from that lifestyle, not only saved me, but it's actually allowed me more access to different things that I never would have had access to before, you know,

my children never seeing me in an altered state. I met my wife Glennon three years ago, and I got sober like a month before I met her, I probably never would have met her, my life would be completely different. And so yeah, you know, shame is the thing that takes us out of the game. And the way that we think about ourselves has so much to do with trends and forces has so much to do with chemicals inside of our bodies, what you're putting in your body is like, you become what you you, you actually eat on some level. And I was putting a lot of crap into my body that was not allowing myself my emotional self, my highest self to come through. And what is how do you define or articulate your highest self? Like, when you think about that vision, or the way that feels inside of you? Can you put words to it? Yeah, I think that we all

have value systems, things that matter to us. You know, I have my own personal value systems. I have a marriage value system and a family value system. And in order for me to operate at highest efficiency and function as my best self, It's to be in true line with those values. Now, look, one of my values is to have a healthy body for as long as my body can live. Now, there are times when I don't work out as much as I should. There are times when I'm probably eating not as well as I probably should. So when those value systems fall down, then those things, those values, in fact, go away. If you don't spend time on your relationships, if you don't spend time on the things that matter to me, living in true form to those things allows me access to this beautiful and true and the best version of myself.

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Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. This is an old concept that we're talking about. The Benjamin Franklin had the same idea and he said, okay, listen, I'm going to write down the values that matter to me. And I think he did 50 of them. And then he won a week. He would train them. He pluck them off. And so let's call it honesty. So he trained it at a ridiculous level every day for the week. And I don't think if you just train honestly for a week, you're done, you know, like, but he was the thought was that he wanted to train them

so that they eventually become a habit. Right. And as an athlete, right? Doesn't that make sense? Okay, we front load the training, we do it in calm environments, more stressful environments, more rugged environments, so that it's a habit, you know, in the most hustle. Okay. So what do you have a handful that you're working on or that are snapped in place for your highest, your best? Yeah. And I think that, you know, you have to know yourself before you figure out who your highest and best self is. Okay, wait, hold on, hold on to interrupt. How do you do that? And I'm not talking about people in general. Like, how do you do that? The way that I try to find out who I am is I try to meditate. I work out, I play golf. And then one of the most important things, you know, because as an athlete, feedback is really important. I'm so glad you brought that up. Yeah. Because that's what's not available in the business world that like, how do you know, how do you and I know right now that this is a good conversation,

that this is the best we can do. We're in athletics. It's like, you got your body giving you feedback. You've got your coach giving you feedback. You got film giving you feedback. You got your teammates giving you, you got like the outcome is giving you feedback. So, so how, like, how are you getting feedback now? Yeah. Um of all, my wife, she's an author and a motivational speaker and just is like overall just like the most amazing human being. So she is like my first go-to person for feedback. Like what do you think about this? So the way that we operate is we don't have cherished outcomes in terms of our own, you know, my personal growth is my personal growth, her personal growth is hers. We're just trying to

mirror each other, right? So here's what I'm seeing, like, I know you said this thing the other day that you're trying to work on. So for me, one of the things that I'm trying to work on right now is listening. Because my personality is I want to, I'm a wait to talker. I want to talk. I want to get the attention. Right. And in order for me to kind of combat this part of my personality that I think is actually limiting me from connecting, truly connecting with people, it's this one way dimension where I'm not allowing information to come back to me. And so I'm blocking this true connection that I can have with people in so many ways. So, you know, my wife, she has to, at times, you know, pull me aside and say, look, I love you. You're amazing. But I just want you to know that that whole dinner conversation, you know, the kids, they don't want you to profitize. Like they're not asking

you questions. They just want to talk. And I think that that is really important. Getting feedback from your other person, from the person in your life that you trust the most is huge. Getting feedback from your business partners, the people that are with you, that talk to you, that hear the things that come out of your mouth on a daily basis. You know, my wife says this really great thing. She talks about in order to not have deathbed regret, make sure you don't have bedtime regret. And that is like a really easy thing to conceptualize. Like, oh yeah, if I don't want to be disappointed with the way that I live my life down the road, then I need to not be disappointed

the way that I'm living my life right now. And you have to figure out, okay, who am I now? And what are the parts of who I am right now that are inhibiting me from getting to the end of the road? So when I go out on the road, and I'm doing the speaking tour, or whatever it is, one of the things that I tell people is like, you have to write your own commencement speech or write your own eulogy. Right. And figure out and try to reverse and engineer that. Right. Because and also put people in your life that will hold you accountable to the things that you value. Right. So, you know, my wife is my value account person, the person in my life who will make sure that I'm showing up for myself every day. And of course, you have to have people who aren't going to be directly related or affected by some of these value systems that you set in place.

So mechanically, do you list? So you're meditating. You're doing difficult things physically to learn about yourself. You've got a partner that you trust and you communicate and she helps to hold a mirror up to say, Abby, you're full of shit or Abby, you're right on the money there or whatever. Right. Okay. So do you mechanically write things down and say, these are the values that I'm working on and then have a system in place to practice them? Are you doing that? Yeah. Yeah. So when, when Glenn and I got married, we actually had a value vow. So, you know, essentially what, what vows are, are, are

deeper, prettier versions of values. And, you know, we wrote them down and, and we really do try to live by them. Now, that doesn't mean we're like robots, but it does mean that it is always in constant closeness to not just our hearts, but, you know, things that I just in passing talk about with my wife that I've never written down that I'm just like, hey, I want to do this, you know, like random, random thoughts. I can't think of one now, but the one about, you know, over talking. at times will see me literally closing my mouth with two of my fingers as like an active way for me to remember, do not open your mouth right now, whether you want to or not, you know? And that's just it. Like, that's what life is. Like, it's about creating a value system for yourself and, you know, going through them one by one every day, every single day. Because here's the thing. People say they value things, but then

they never work on them. So then my question to you is, do you actually value them? Do you really value your body, even though you've not gone and worked out in one whole year? Do you really value your relationship with your children, even though you you spent every single weeknight at work? Do you really value your marriage even though you haven't been physically intimate with your partner in over two years? And I know that there's so many complexities as to why all those things break down. But the reality is if you don't focus any attention on your values, they will eventually go away. So you really are working. You know, this isn't like, hey, I'm really athletic, and I'm not really sure how I did it. Maybe you should talk to my wife,

because she's, she's really the, you know, the person that switched switched on and I'm just kind of lucky to be around her. You're really working. Yeah. Well, that also is true. I'm very lucky to be around my wife because she is switched on. You can tell for sure. Okay. All right. So why did you commit so fiercely to being an alpha? I understand is it? I understand that the, the anxiety for not being seen, but there's lots of ways to work with that. You know, you can become the partier, you could become the angel, you could become the wallflower, you could do lots of things, but why, why the fierceness of the alpha competitor? And it's not lost on me that your book and the wolf pack, like that, that is an alpha competitor or I'm sorry, an alpha predator, you know? So like,

why that tone for you? I think that the word alpha is an interesting one. I had never really thought of myself as an alpha. Really? Yeah. I mean, the truth is, is I feel like on the field as a, as a, as a competitor, I knew what I could bring. And I also knew deeply that it didn't make me better than anybody else. So any good alpha has to understand that in order to achieve any level of success, you need to have a bunch of people around you that are going to support you in this task, in this venture, in this journey. Whether it be to save your ass, whether it be to, you know, pass you the ball. I wanted my whole experience to be. Full rounded, I didn't want to be the one I wanted people. I wanted my teammates. I wanted my family. I wanted the fans to see that I was an integral part and a component of this team.

And my role at times was to be the goal scorer. My role at times was this is what needs to happen. And I was like, all right, let's go. Like, I'm willing, I'm able, I can take this on, no problem. But I also knew deeply that I needed the people around me in order to have that moment really truly happen. And I just, I mean, ever since I was a young kid, like when a goal needed to get scored, I was just able to like muster it. I was able to like, in some really cosmic weird way, will the ball to come to me like like imagery I did a lot of imagery growing up thinking about a goal being scored thinking about the ball hit in

the back of the net thinking about it and I think that there is so much more to that idea and I'm sure there will be way more science in the next 25 years around this idea of believing something to be able to happen. Because the reality is in every sporting event, the reason why we love watching it is because it's unpredictable. We don't know what's going to happen. That's exactly right. It's so exciting. And the truth behind any touchdown, any basket, any goal that gets scored is that that's a personal revolution because this thing that you just created has never happened before. is because they have to, they're forced to embrace the unfolding, unpredictable, unknown. And for those who have a hard time with it, it's called anxiety. And because we want to control

what's about to happen, but we can't. So to trust oneself, to let go requires incredible work, both from a ridiculous internal standpoint, like I'm going to be okay no matter what happens here. That's hard to get to. And then have the ridiculous skill outside of it so that when the opportunity arises, you can execute in the way that you want to, you know, capture that opportunity. And then, so that's one of the reasons probably that athletes do well, so well in the business world. And there are costs, you know, to the athletic mindset in business sometimes, you know, to your point, you are more of a pack animal, but I think you are the leader of the pack. You are the alpha in the pack is what it looked like and felt like. But,

but let's not be confused with the lone wolf. The lone wolf is the wolf that it tends to be female, I think maybe exclusively as female, but kicked out of the tribe because they didn't work. They didn't work well with others. So you purposely talk about the wolf pack, not the alpha, the lone wolf. That's not who you are. And that's not what you want to create for other people. Okay. So, okay. Imagery. How often would you do it? Could you feel it? Could you see it? Could you smell it? How many of your senses could you get switched on when you would close your eyes? So I actually started doing imagery with our, my high school coach. She would make us lay down on

the ground and, um, and get into, you know, just kind of shavasana, though yoga wasn't popular back then. And I just remember feeling like, oh, this is cool. Like, I can, I can play this game in my mind right now. Like, I can actually have any outcome happen that I want. I can see it from different perspectives, and I can feel it, and I can hear it and all of that. Could you were you skilled at it? Yeah. I mean, yes, because ironically it became part of my pregame ritual before women's national team games. Um, every single, um, every single national anthem that was played, I would do this thing and halfway through the anthem, I would put my head down and imagine goals being scored in every way, feet,

head. And it helped. I mean, I scored a bunch of goals, right? But I think that the belief that there's a possibility, as a forward, it's so important. As an attacking forward on a soccer team, believing that the ball is going to get there is half of the actual play because you have to get your body in motion before the ball gets sent in. Your body has to be already moving. So you have to predict where the ball is going to possibly go. It hasn't even come off their foot yet. So the imagery, the creativity, all of this stuff is happening instantly. And I think that the more an attacking player can get used to it and also the whole object, it not working out. Also making sure that you know like, oh, okay, that play didn't work out.

I'm going to survive. The concept behind people who don't train the muscle it's it's a muscle it's like it's like if you haven't trained it i mean listen i have had to retrain myself in the business world of like going out and trying something completely new and and recreating and kind of being a revolutionary in my own life uh about what's possible and and and though i'm not running to get on the end of a ball to like do a diving header i'm still running and trying to get to a different place, trying to achieve a different level of success or trying to achieve something in, in any way. I think that you're reminding us of how important it is. And when you say it, it's so different than when I say it.

And I I'll, I'll tell you, like, tip of the arrow performers across multiple domains from soccer to business to, you know, extreme, whatever, imagery is part of the game. Why are the rest of the folks that are not tip of the arrow fighting it? Why are they saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do it too. But they really don't. It's like doing it the night before a big speech, quote unquote, big, you know, like that's not it. It's there's something else that sits right underneath of the drive to want to feel it, to want to see it, to want to play it from different perspectives. And obviously you had that, that was part of your DNA.

And obviously it's stemmed from not being seen. So you're, we're committed're committed right like highly committed and then okay yeah all that being said I'm not like I love what you have done with your life and the clarity you have about who you are I think it's extraordinary and I haven't yet felt like I haven't felt where you struggle I felt I've you've said where you have struggled but I haven't felt where you struggle I felt I've you've said where you have struggled but I haven't felt where you struggle now because maybe it's the media mind that's on right now for you but like because you've said the words like I'm still trying to figure it out but then how does that struggle happen for you now and I wonder if you could take us there. Yeah. So I'll just, I mean, I've got a bunch of struggles that I'm working on right now. First of all, one of the biggest struggles that I have been trying to understand

is this whole concept of food and what is it for now. As a pro athlete, you develop an appetite based on what your output, your caloric output and expenditure is on a daily basis. And as an athlete, as a pro athlete, I was expending sometimes 6,000 calories a day, which means I would, in order to not lose any weight, I would have to intake 6,000 calories a day. Now, from the bigger perspective, you might think, oh, that's so lucky, right? Like, that's amazing. Well, there were some times I was like so sick of eating, like, oh, I don't want to eat another thing. But it develops this belief system that I can eat whatever I want. And now you take away the gain. You take away all of those calories that I'm expelling every single day. And then you have to reframe, like, what food is for.

Because it's not for the fueling of this body as a pro athlete. It's the fueling of this body as a human being, as a person. So that's been one of the biggest struggles that I've had over the course of my retirement. Um, and then this whole concept of what is training my body for now. Okay. Yeah. So the the nutrition part the movement part is getting resorted because it's not for that one aim yes so getting yeah okay so getting into like longevity and those conversation is a new conversation relatively new conversation for you yes and i think that it's it's playing very well with this different belief system, this immortality that I think I felt as a pro athlete. You know, I really believe on a weird deep level that I can do anything.

And when your body starts to turn and you hit the period where, you know, you're not, you're not, you're not losing as many calories as you did on a daily basis. And you have to actually watch what you eat in order to maintain a body type that feels good and happy to you. It's really confusing. And also, it's really confusing to be a woman in this world right now. A lot of women have terrible conversations with themselves about their bodies because the way that the media portrays what an average person and an average woman's body should look like is so vastly different than what the average body actually looks like. So we're on this rat wheel that there seems to be that there, there seems to be no peace. Um, there seems to be no understanding. And then I think in the bigger question that you asked, like, what am I

struggling with? Um, you know, I have an existentialism that like, what the hell are we all here for? That's, that's like the thing that I'm on a constant daily struggle with um what am i here for like what is this life like it's pretty bizarre that like us human beings are all down here doing this weird stuff like we're doing this weird work down here but like what is it really for um so yeah long long answer to a tough question. You bring up the gender challenge right now, and it is tricky times, right? Because change is happening. And good, right?

It's good. I just read a piece of research the other day that married women spend 20 minutes longer per day. Did you read that? Yeah. Like cleaning the houses, doing chores, then single moms. So what, what, what is that about? It's crazy making, but anyways, so you, you, you've been really strong with this idea about being a feminist, having, which is a loaded word. And I want to, can we have that conversation? Totally. Yeah. So feminism as a loaded word, meaning really want to, can we have that conversation? Totally. Yeah. So feminism as a loaded

word, meaning really it's about the advocacy for women. And it doesn't mean at the cost of men, it just means having a specific interest for social change for women. And I'm not so sure that I'm not a feminist. I struggle with that because I am interested in people being able to flourish, but my mission is not to specifically help one race, one gender. And it's easy to say because I'm a white man. So I'll tell you, from a white man perspective, there's no small violence here. Okay. I understand the privilege that I've been afforded is that, um, it's like reframing, um, to use your word, the, the conversations that are changing and the assumptions that have been made and understanding what it's like to be others in professional worlds is something that is lacking.

Yeah, I think a couple things. First of all, I want to just talk about the word feminist. You know, there's a huge stigma that gets attached to it because so many people believe, and I get it, so many people believe that, oh, you have to burn your bra and you're man-hating to be a feminist. But the real definition of feminism is somebody who just believes in equality for all people, for both males and females. And I think that because of the stigma that gets attached to it, it alienates men from actually wanting to be a part of the movement in a lot of ways. And I hate it. That part is a bummer, right? So that's why I was saying, when I look at the core definition,

it's like, wait, I think I am that. But then I don't identify with that word because I'm not advocating specifically for one gender, one ethnicity, right? But neither is feminism. Neither is feminism. It looks like that on the outside. It looks like, oh, it's just women fighting for women's rights. But when you're being marginalized in any way, until there's really quality, right? It just looks like the Black Lives Matter folks are only fighting for black lives that matter. Right. And it looks like, oh, the feminist movement is only fighting for women's rights. But the reality is the opposite of patriarchy in my mind is not matriarchy. Like, I don't want women to take over the world. That's not my goal here. I want women to have equal space, equal opportunity.

And for all the guys that are listening to this podcast, don't turn off now. This is when it's going to get really interesting. I promise. I think that we have to understand that before we start delving into the gender discrimination that has happened, I think that there needs to be a real understanding and an honest conversation that needs to be had about how we've all come to understand the world that we live in. I don't fault people for having belief systems about the way the world runs and operates because everybody has their own perspective, their own childhood, their own family dynamics, their own upbringing, their own young adulthood, their own adulthood. And that perspective shapes everything that we think we know and the things that we think we

believe, right? My only request is for people to figure out what it is they believe and figure out truly how they believed it. And then when they can do that, then they can figure out if that belief system is actually serving them still in their current life and in the lives that we're living in right now. Trends and forces, it's a big deal. So the way that our government, the way that our administration, it doesn't matter what political belief you have in my mind. It just matters. Are you in line and are the things that you're living and the values that you're living in your life in line with how you want? Cause so many people don't believe themselves to be sexist. They're like, no, I'm not sexist. Like I've got a wife and I've got a daughter and you know, like I'm not sexist, but like if you actually really looked at yourself, because guess what? I have sexism inside

of me. Like, and I don't even know that I'm doing it sometimes. Like I texted my agent the other day, we were talking about this professor and I was like, Oh, what's his name? And he was like, actually it's a woman, you jerk. And I was like, wow, I'm a, I'm a person out in the world trying to teach this shit. Like, and here I am also subject to the life that I was brought up with. And so I'm always trying to reframe, like I talk about and always trying to figure out, is this my belief system or is this something that was embedded in me? something that was taught in me as a really young kid? It goes along the same lines as racism. Right. And I think that it's a really scary time for folks like you, white men who don't find themselves in some of this, what people would call rhetoric, like, oh, sexism and racism, some of these things that are scary. But the truth is,

it's like, we got to do the work ourselves to figure out where we fall in the concepts of what racism and sexism really does mean. Because it's not, it's, you know, for lack of a better term, it's not really black or white. Like, the truth is going to lie somewhere in the middle in terms of how you were raised, where you were raised. what if you were raised with some sort of spiritual background or religious background, you know, and then what you ended up doing with your life and the way that you look at the world. continually check ourselves that we're not saying anything that's putting mindsets into our daughters and our son about what it means to be a girl and what it means to be a boy. I think we're breaking free from some of these like very constrained definitions of gender. And, and so my, my job is to try to even the playing field as much as it possibly can, you know, and the best thing that I heard

the other day is, you know, white privilege is, is a real thing. And white men, I understand in a lot of ways that white men are, they feel a little bit scared to talk to women at work now because of the Me Too movement. And I want to find, I want to be a bridge for folks that I can share, I can harbor some of these hard feelings that, and this is not an easy time because like, if you're not the wokest woke that ever woke and you miss, you miss say something, or you say something that's out of bounds of like what the political world is talking about, then that shuts you right down. And it doesn't allow you to actually grow and learn. So this is where the communication and

the feedback, those feedback loops are super important. And I think that social media and the way that the media itself portrays itself is it's shutting down the true conversation that needs to happen so that we can solve for some of these bigger, bigger problems. It's really cool because you've got a lot of space in there. You've got a strong point of view and you've got a lot of space about the messy part of change. And you're saying, listen, okay, people are going to screw up. There are biases that we all have. And you're challenging people to take a look at where

those biases came from. And in the field of psychology, we're even taught that our biases show up in the room, like one-on-one with a person and we call it transference and counter-transference, but they are a bias. And that transference is the client reminds me of somebody. And then I've got a whole history with that because we're trying to do this thing called heuristics, which are shortcuts to survival. So we make snap decisions for survival. It doesn't mean they're accurate because the person sitting across the chair is completely new. But the frame that I've had from that person,

from my whatever number of years, is something that is in place. And it's established based on the perfume that they wore, the cologne that they wore, what they said, did they like me, did they not like me? Maybe it looks like my uncle that was great to me or my uncle that was a jerk to me. All of those biases are taking place and they've been informed by the institutions, right? They've been informed by our experiences and they're real. And so I love that you brought up something that I've witnessed that's taking place is, and I don't know if it's wrong, but it is taking place that white men are going, I don't know what to say, so I'm going to avoid it. I'm not sure, do I open the door or not open the door?

Literally sometimes, because why would you open the door for me? I can get my own door, says somebody. Or literally open the door, the conversation. It's super tricky, and people don't want to screw up and be a jerk, you know? And so sensitivity is, I think, where you're agitating for. And here's the easy question, whether it's feminism or something else, do you believe that men and women deserve equal rights? Yes. And equal opportunities, right?

Yes. And so if the answer is yes, then you're on the same page like for humanity to win. You know, do you believe do you do somebody really oppose the idea that every human being on the planet deserves equal rights? Well, I'm sure that there are a lot of people on the planet. You know, there's these things called genocide that have happened throughout the human history of humanity. There are bad people in this world. Yeah. And, and listen, I think that we have to actually figure out what the next step is for men out there who, um, are, are experiencing some fear right now around interacting in any way with women. Well, what once was okay is no longer okay.

And how do I know what is right and what is wrong? I think that one really good thing to kind of hang your hat on is to just mind your own body. For so many centuries, women's bodies have been sexualized and subjected to ownership of men, right? I mean, think about marriage from like a very deep, deep level, like marriage, and it was a financial gain. It was like a way to get land and to own a person and to have a person who could create other human beings, right? So, you know, we have to really think about evolutionarily, like why we believe some of the things that we believe in and biologically.

And if you mind your own body, you're probably going to be okay. If you don't touch anybody else. And you are conscious of another person. And if you see somebody as an equal, then you shouldn't have something to worry about. Like truly, that's cool. Truly, super simple. If you see somebody as an equal, and I think the bigger fear that's coming up with some folks is that they're afraid that some of their misogyny or sexism or racism is going to come out sideways, which is what we're seeing. And if it does, awesome, you're going to learn something. You're going to learn something about yourself that maybe you need to do a little bit of work on. But the problem is people don't like to do work on themselves.

People don't like to have to change anything about the way that they're interacting with their world. And, you know, a lot of white men out there, they've started on third base, so to speak, in terms of the human race. Like when you're born, you're basically, you know, white, white women and black men and women of color and men of color. Like we start at a much lower base. Some people aren't even like that. And that's the truth. And uncovering that privilege is hard for folks. Uncovering privilege is really doing it right now. And it's really scary. It's like, wow, I really have like a deep belief system because of how I was raised and where I was born and the things that I was taught.

And also like think about it, like our history books are not correct. The books that we were we were raised to believe to be true textbooks are not correctly talking about how our country came to be and how we were built on the backs of slaves. And we raped and pillaged Native Americans who are living here so that we can have the land. Like, there needs to be a truth. There needs to be an uncovering. And that's what's happening right now. And I think that if you are afraid, dig into it and just treat people as they're that they're equal because they are. You're just like you're lucky that you were born a white guy. I'm lucky that I was born a white girl. Right. And also, I'm not lucky that I was born a woman. I'm not lucky. Like there's there's things that we have to understand that have nothing to do with us.

Yeah, literally. It's fair. You know, and that's that's one of the reasons have nothing to do with us. Yeah. Literally. It's fair. You know, and that's, that's one of the reasons I get agitated on intelligence. So you had, you are smart, Abby, you had nothing to do with your intelligence. And there are plenty of people that are born below average and it's harder. And you're, I think, what are you, 5'10", 5'11"? You're big, right? So you didn't have anything to do with that, but you exploited it. You used it to your advantage, right?

Yeah. So all that's really good. My wife is Latin and she says, hey, you know what? It's really freaking hard. To be a Latin woman is really hard in the States. Now she's got some serious gifts. And so those gifts have helped her. And, but, and she reminds like on the pay scale, she goes, Hey, try it out. Take a look at that pay scale. So it's, I think I have it right. It's white women.

So it's, it's Asian men. This is America, Asian men, white men, African-American men, African-American women. What's next? Did I miss white women? I think, yeah, I missed that. You're pretty close. And then the end is Latino women. Latino women. She's like, check it out.

I'm like, oh, my God. It's a whole different world. Yeah, I mean, they make about half the amount. 50 cents on the dollar. Yeah. It's like 53 cents or 57 cents maybe now. But in comparison to white men in our country, it's abysmal. And, and, you know, it's like, if you actually believe that people are human beings, you know, they should get they should.

And listen, I don't believe that, you know, I think that there are different kinds of jobs. Right. And there's a reason why the market value is different for different kinds of jobs. I get that. But you can't just pay somebody less because of their skin color or where they were born or what their genitalia is. It doesn't make any sense. Let me ask you this. You're right. So I got asked in a relatively public setting, hey, talk to me about racism in sport and with the team I'm part of. And I was like, okay, so this is going to sound awful, but the environment that I'm in right now at the Seattle Seahawks, I don't, I've never heard a coach say, oh, he's white, he's slow or, oh, he's whatever, like put him in because of his race.

I've never, I've never heard that. So is there systemic racism in the league? Yeah. Are there challenges in every league? Yeah. You were a huge advocate and maybe regretfully not enough of an advocate as I've read in your book for speaking up for equal rights, equal pay between men and women's soccer. And so anyways, back to my story is I got blasted for it. And I said, so I went back to the team and I said, Hey, and I grabbed a bunch of coaches, both, both races. And I said, um, I, this is what just happened to me. And so can, what am I missing? And they go, dude, no, no, no here it's different in other places, maybe not. So, so why do I share this story with you is because there's an assumption that just because there's different races in a room that there is racism.

And my experience has been, and great leaders build their relationships, I'm sorry, build cultures on relationships and meritocracy. Like it's an ultimate meritocracy. Like if you got skill, you're in and the relationships matter. So if you get those two things, right, skill, value of relationships of people and value of skill, you create a winning environment, right? Not just outcome, but for humanity and likely for outcome as well. So I share that with you because, you know, you've been right in the thick of saying women should be paid more. And do you have a position that women should be paid equal if the turnout of the stadium is not equal? Or is there a commensurate relationship that you're fighting for? And that's me naively not knowing your position and what you're looking to advocate. No, this is a really good question. And it's an important

question because I understand supply and demand. I understand economics. I understand TV rights deals. I understand the concept of it. And I think that in order to have any progress, we have to look at the full picture in order for me to actually opinionate on this question. We have to look at the full picture before we do. And in order to get the full picture, you have to gather facts and then find truth within that for yourself. Right. So over the course of the history of my career on the women's national team, we, um, fought, uh, we fought for, for better contracts. Every time we'd have to go into the negotiating table, um, we were negotiating, right. We were negotiating with all the facts on the table. Um, how much increase of attendance,

how much increase of, of, uh, sponsorship. Uh, and, and I think that when you look at the facts, there are some huge glaring things that are left out of the conversation. And the number one thing when you really get into the weeds of it is this idea of marketing. Now, I would like the folks that are listening to this

to understand and try to figure out for themselves why do they why are they huge seattle seahawks fans right like why do you have an affinity for them like were you born with it or did you just like grow to love them because russell wilson signed a big contract the biggest contract in nfl history or like has it been embedded in your family, in the fabric of what your family is for forever, right? Since the time the NFL started. So's just by word of mouth or it's because Seattle Seahawks. And that starts to come into their consciousness, like their awareness. So they're on their social media feeds or they're watching the game on television. And all of these things go into what creates people's concept of going to a game or watching a game on television or knowing that a game is on television.

And the NFL and Major League Baseball and the NBA, they've had generations of people developing this consciousness about what the game is and who this team is and why they follow them, why they're diehard fans. And the amount of money that is spent to create this consciousness of this brand is, I mean, it's incalculable. I mean, there's so much money that has gone into, let me take the MLS for an example. In 1994, the MLS started and the first owners of the MLS decided they were going to lose a ton of money in order to build this,

this thing that they saw becoming big, like it is today that, you know, now current valuations of certain MLS teams are in the hundreds of millions of dollars, which is amazing. But that, that came at a cost to some really rich people who saw that there was a potential here, right? Women's sports has not been given. Not only has there not been enough time, but women's sports has not been given the same kind of financial potential investment that male sports has. And you see that based on people's, what they call popularity or visibility or viewability, right? And you have to think about that. Like, oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me that the same kind of investment has not been made. So what comes first, the chicken or the egg? Now, when talking about the women's national team and U.S. soccer, people don't understand that U.S. soccer is a nonprofit organization. And their mission is to grow the the word equitable, which is unfortunate because that is, in essence, now what has made this new lawsuit that the women's national team has filed going to be a slam dunk for them.

Because in 2015, the women's team earned $ but to answer your question i think you have to have the full context before making an opinion for yourself do i believe that um women's sports deserves to have more potential investment to be able to grow the game yes. Now, what comes first? The sponsorships have to see the value in that, and they want it now. They're not in it for the 100 years. They want to see the return on their investment right now. And so I get that. So it's very confusing when you do get in the weeds of it, because from a business perspective, I see that teams do want to invest real dollars. But, you know, in difference to the league system, which are owned by families and they have specific owners and they're being run by a commissioner and the head of those leagues,

U.S. Soccer and FIFA, these are nonprofit organizations that have promised to grow the game both for the men and women worldwide and in the United States. And so for them to only dedicate a certain amount of dollars to the women's game in relation to how much money the money that has come in in the past for the women's game is bullshit because you have to think about potential for growth. And, you know, for me, the argument goes away after 2015 when the women brought in more money than the men. Love it. Super clear. And obviously this is where a big part of your passion is.

Yeah. I mean, listen, when I, when I left the game, you know, I thought highly of myself. I was like, wow, I've done well. I've won some medals. You know, I'm leading the world in goals for men and women. Like, for instance, I've scored more goals than Cristiano and Messi in international football. That's kind of cool. And when I walked away from this game I just had this like overwhelming sense you know Kobe and myself we all three of us

were getting the same award on the ESPY stage we were all three of us were getting this icon award and I was like wow this is pretty amazing I'm feeling myself you know and then all three of us turned to walk off stage um and it was like I got punched in the face of the reality of how different all, you know, and and as a national team player, like as a woman who I got more than Mia did and Mia got more than her predecessor, like know this and the world is moving in the right direction for women's sports and women's soccer. But I have to be real about that night, like laying in that hotel bed, like thinking, why didn't I do more? Um, so I was just like, all right, well, I'm going to dedicate the rest of my life to making sure that Alex Morgan and Megan Rapinoe, that they are, that they retire in a different way than I did, that they're not going to necessarily have to worry about how they're going to pay their

mortgage when they retire as one of the best in the world. The strength of the pack. There you are. Good. And that story that you share in your book is awesome. You know, your book is great because it's so crisp. Thank you. And yeah. is awesome. Your book is great because it's so crisp. I hope you're never embarrassed to give

the small book to somebody because when I got it, I was like, this is great. The 260 pages that most books are, it feel like way too heavy and thick. I got your book and I was like, this is perfect. Crisp, right to the point. Thank you for that, you're welcome. It takes an hour to read and you know, every word is there for a reason and it's meaningful to me. And, um, I'm very proud of this book, you know, and, and as an athlete, I spent a lot of time playing sports. I didn't spend a ton of time reading books as a kid. Um, and so I'm actually trying to develop this. Something I'm struggling with now is trying to develop a love of reading. So this was my gift to people who have a similar understanding of reading and a similar relationship with reading that I do. You can get through this book in an hour and you can also come back to it and take it in snippets

one chapter at a time, just as a maybe a daily meditation or something that you want to focus your attention on that specific day. But yeah, short and sweet. That's kind of how I like it. It was awesome. Okay, let me do some quick hits for you real quick. And these are just numbers. Okay, one to 10. And then we're going to round out our conversation here. Your ability to switch on 10 10 being high, 1 being low. I think I know the number. 10. Yeah, your ability to switch off. 10. So you can shut her down. Oh, I'm the best. I'm actually probably better at that than turning it off. Your ability to manage internal distractions,

which is like self-talk, that stuff. The inner dialogue. Probably an eight, yeah. Okay. Your ability to lock in and focus when it's dangerous. Oh, 10.5. When it's boring. One.

When you feel pressure. Nine. Where does pressure come from? Out there. Motivation is more for external rewards one to ten yeah so this is actually the thing that that i've gotten it down to with with my food intake and working out stuff is i've been externally motivated my whole life and i'm now developing the skill of internally motivating myself. So I don't know where that falls on the scale, but that's what I'm working on. So your, your career, your athletic career was, you're more interested, more motivated by

recognition. Yes. Right. And that was the goals and goals recognition. I just felt like that was the quickest line to winning games and to, um, achieving success into winning championships. It was like, okay, I got to score as many goals as I possibly can. And all that other stuff is going to like come because of that. Okay. Your openness to ideas and experiences one to 10. Ooh, 10, 10. Yeah. I would imagine like in high school sorting out how to come out and you didn't come out in high school, right? You came out later. Yeah. I came out. I mean, I was out with my family around 20. My mom went 22 years old, but I came out publicly, I think five or six years Okay, your fear of failure, one to ten.

This is tough. I don't fear failure. I know it is a necessary thing, but I freaking hate it. I would say like a seven. Okay, how about your fear of looking bad? Hmm. I'm not afraid of that. I'm okay with that. So is that a 10?

I don't know in terms of this. Yeah. No, no, no. That'd be a one. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Your fear of success.

One to 10. Uh, a five. Whoa. That's totally surprised me for you really yeah yeah because here's the thing this is what probably brought me down is just like i don't want to be like i want success but i don't want to be so you don't overwhelm yeah i don't want to be overwhelmed by the being this one and what that might mean. And like, now I'm just like super happy with like being a parent and starting a business. And, um, I'm just like, I'm, I'm robotically inclined to be needing to be number one. Um, you know, like Wolfpack actually made the bestseller list it was like fourth or fifth or something and i was like that's great and like my publishers were like what do you mean

we're the bestseller list and i was like but it's not a gold medal so oh my god look at you i know and so then it finally wrote it rose to number one so now i get to say it's number one which you know oh now you're okay yeah the music one to ten um i'm not a huge music person i like it but doesn't matter to me so is that like a two three four i'd say like a four four spirituality ten ten practicing spirituality That's different. Five. Science. One to ten.

Ten. Breaking rules. You know what's so funny is now that I'm sober, I'm probably like a one or two on it. So your previous life, you broke a lot of rules. Yeah, every once in a while, I'll be like, I'm just going to do this. Risk-taking, one to ten. Ten. Being self-critical, one to ten.

Ten. So how do you deal with that? That's where the personal work comes in. Got it. That's where my wife lives a shameless life, which I'm like in awe of, you know, I'm my worst critic. I think that, um, it for sure has inhibited me from certain things, but I also think it's kept me in certain lines throughout my life. It's annoying though. Cause it's like, I don't know if that critic goes away. I like sometimes wonder like what voice it has.

I like try to bring up like a, like a name to it. Like, is it me or like, what is it? Like, what is that? Who is that? And why? Like, what's the whole point? Is it my mom? Is it my dad?

Or is it actually me or like the worst version of myself? I don't know. That's the inner struggle. There's a there's a phrase that I really abide and respect, which is at any given point in time, I'm a standing civil war. Right? And it's that battle between, you know, both sides, like the, you know, I don't know that that that's just been around for a long time. Okay, cool. Intellectually competitive is pretty high for you? Yeah. Yeah. Are you more critical of others or positive of others? Positive. Fast decisions versus slow? You make fast decisions, don't you? Big time. Yeah. More of an optimist than a pessimist? More. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have to

learn that or did that come naturally just natural natural okay my wife is the opposite actually more pessimistic yeah well i mean in certain ways like she's super spiritual and awesome but um she thinks you know the glass might be so it's like really cool for both of us to kind of come together i'm like no it'll be everything it'll be fine she like, how do you know? I'm like, oh, God. That's so good. You guys are probably a perfect match.

Okay. Literally before we got on with you, she's like, oh, my gosh, I'm so excited. We're going to have so much to talk about today. Because we get to the same place and have similar mindset, like thoughts, but our mindset and the the the perspective that we get there comes from a like totally different place which is so fascinating it's really what do you hope that people listening that like the next generation will embrace from this from our conversation from your life you know what do you hope they get right? I think one of the things that's super important to me is for people to understand that in order to, to be great, you have to do great things.

And, um, it's not going to just happen. Like my natural talent paired with extreme amount of work ethic and some luck, some trends and forces of the world that made women's sports kind of women's sports at this moment in history. And right now my voice in the world with women empowerment and equal rights, like those are trends and forces that I had nothing to do with. So there's all these things that go into becoming great. And you yourself are only a small part of that. But you have to do it in your own way. Like do not copycat myself or somebody else, because then you're just going to be doing a lesser version of something now that needs to be done right forward to be to to do something great means you have to actually outdo somebody else or something else and to do that means you have to take risks to do that it has to have the timing and the effect of timing. And to do that, it has to be done in your own special, unique way because there's only one of you out there. And the one of you is the only person that has your exact life experience that will be able to interpret the world that you interpreted in to be able to create what you want to create to put out in the world to make it better.

Gosh, Abby. I mean, it's like, I love what you're saying. And I, I really hope that, um, the momentum that you're carrying from your athletic career does exactly what you just said. And so I'm stoked to know you through this conversation. I feel like there are 15 different layers to go through with you and we're able to get to, you know, one, two, three of them. And so you got some depth in you. I love it. How do you define mastery? Like what is your working definition of mastery? Well, on the women's national team for so many

years, it was just this relentless pursuit of excellence. And I've been consumed with the idea of consistency now, because I don't have the same kind of measurable defining moments of success like I used to. Um, consistency has become a part of that pursuit of excellence for myself. Um, and that is the thing that I kind of, that is the way that I need to continually define mastery. That is the way that I need to continually define mastery. That is the way that I need to, it forces me to get up in the morning. It's like, all right, I got to be consistent. So I got to do this day, right? I got to do it well so that I don't have that deathbed regret. I got to make sure that I don't have bedtime regret. And also mastery is not for everyone. I mean, you can have it. Everybody has access to it, but not everybody completes it because it's hard. A lot of people ask me like, well, you have such a good life. And I'm like, yeah, I do. But I've worked really freaking hard to get it. And it's a consistency in which I've worked hard to be able to establish it and

maintain it. Love it. Where can people find you? Obviously get the book. Yeah. Abby Wambach.com. All of my handles are Abby Wambach. You know, and listen, if you don't like what I have to say, awesome. Go find somebody who has something to say that you do like. Seriously. I thought you're going to say go find, go, go something else yourself. I just think that like, there's too many, one of the things that technology brings us right now is access. And unfortunately that can get, um, overwhelming. You can have too much access and you can be stuck on your phone. But if you have, we have this technology right now, find the people like, like yourself. I mean, you're trying to do good work in the world. Find people out there that

fall in line with your values that in your beliefs and like what you want the world to look like and go about creating it. That's rad. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So the intensity and clarity you have about life approach and the credibility you have is extraordinary. So congrats on everything. And then at any given point in time, you want to play in the space that Coach Carol and I built this business, the Compete to Create business. We'd love to include your mission and your work in there. And then so you didn't mention your business. What is it?

It's called Wolfpack Endeavor. It's a leadership programming development space. We're actually going inside of the corporate world, teaching athletic mindset to women and men to try to fight against this inequality that we see not only at the board level, but high levels of positions of, you know, at the at the table where decisions are made with those those tables need to be more equal, both gender and race. Amen. Thank you so much. You're amazing. Keep killing it, man. My pleasure.

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