Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Activist Michealene Risley on Storytelling, Empathy, Sexual Abuse

Episode Date: November 10, 2016

Michealene Risley is an award-winning writer, director and human rights activist. In This Episode: -Being a “master” of empathy -Why she’s hesitant to include dominance in the definition of mastery -Growing up with dark secrets that she wasn’t initially prepared to face -How slamming her hand in a car door proved to be a life altering moment -Why her childhood experiences have given her a keen eye for picking up on other people’s emotions and past experiences -Making a documentary in Zimbabwe and being thrown in jail -Why the hardest moment in her life was her not being true to her family mission -Comparing and contrasting external success vs. the internal experience_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And the idea behind these conversations is to learn, to learn from people who are on the path of mastery and to better understand what they're searching for and the path that has led them to that search, as well as the particular mental skills that they've used to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions.

In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right

people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes

by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly, I need something

quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective.

28 grams of protein, just 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode, by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters.

And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com

slash finding mastery. Now in this conversation is with Michaelene Risley. And Michaelene, you might not know her name. She's not globally recognized, but in her world, she definitely is. She's been a longtime entrepreneur who's created some of the largest deals in consumer products and entertainment. And she's worked with Fortune 100 companies like Nike and Walt Disney. And while she was with Adidas, she launched the Power of Two, which is the first ever branded maternity line. And so she understands licensing and merchandising and putting concepts and ideas together. And she's got a bend in a particular twist that is very powerful. And so as you're listening to this, if you're listening with children, this conversation, you might actually want to listen to this one alone.

It's intense and it's real and it's authentic and it's adult conversation. So if you're in the conversation or in the car or wherever you are with the transparency is so real that it's evidence of the work that Michaelene has done. And the work, the interior work, when somebody does that, it's powerful and it's noticed by others. And so she's experimented in many different veins of finding mastery in her own life, some in business, some in documentarian, as a documentarian, and some in writing. And she's working out the core truth of her own journey. Tapestries of Hope, which was the documentary that exposed the myth in Zimbabwe behind the belief that raping a virgin cures a man of HIV and AIDS. And so you can just imagine, we get into that and we talk about that story. But the reason that I wanted to just put that alert up is because we talk about her path and what led her to want to understand the human experience at rich levels is that she was

molested and raped at a young age. And because of that, she has an insight that is unique and is fresh and is inspiring. And so I want to jump right into this, or when we are in the conversation, we talked about mastery. She immediately became connected to the concept of like, no, I don't want to think about mastery about dominating other people, but I want to think about it as being able to have empathy for others. This is just beautiful. So I can't, I can't wait to share this conversation with you. It was great.

It was like right out of the gates. I was like, I can't wait to get this up. So looking forward to it. Hit us up on social afterwards. If you haven't written a review on iTunes, I'd love to say one more time, please do so. It's helping to build a base for us. The more reviews, the more exposure will allow us to continue and grow and you know the source of pain for me around that why to grow is because these amazing people that we are fortunate enough to learn from I want to amplify their voice to millions of people and so if we can do that we're gonna be on to something really cool all right so with that I want to thank everyone on the finding masteryy community as a resource for each other. It's been amazing. If you're not part of it yet, punch over to findingmastery.net forward slash community. And if you're so interested and intrigued in these conversations, can you tell someone

about it? It'll help build our base again and amplify the intelligence of Michael Lean on this conversation as well as many of the former guests. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Michaelene. Michaelene, how you doing? I'm doing good, Mike. Thank you. Doing great. Okay, so let's jump right into your story and how you've been able to come to understand what you've come to understand. And that's kind of essentially what we want to be able to learn from you in these podcasts or learn from people like you in the podcast.

So can you give people a quick overview of what you've been up to lately, what you've spent your life efforts in so far? Yeah. I think I've spent at least a predominant amount of my life working on issues of rape and abuse. I'm a survivor as a child and very, very lucky. And I travel a lot and see people who are not so lucky. So I've dedicated a lot of my life to working on these issues. And so for so many people, this is such a hard conversation to have, and both in all parties.

And so as I was preparing for this conversation with you, I'm not exactly sure where to take it. And that being said, I'd love for you to guide just a little bit at the beginning and maybe we'll find our way. I've got some real questions I want to ask you about the experience, but I want to be sensitive because I don't really know how to ask these publicly in particular. So where would be a good place for us to start? So fascinating. And thank you for being so honest. I think maybe if, because I've really been sort of really contemplating what mastery means.

And when I looked up the definition of mastery, I found my body a little resistant to the traditional definition. Keep going. Yeah, because what I heard in that was a domination right that mastery a domination and historically we can look at you know figures and uh people we hear and learn about um that part of that mastery is a domination and so i stepped back a little bit and said, so what does that mean for me? And I think what it means for me is having this insatiable curiosity and this passion and commitment. To me, it has nothing to do with sort of a traditional definition of mastery and sort of how it gets coupled with money. Do you know what I mean? Money and success. So, um, yeah, mastery to me is never losing that insatiable curiosity.

Okay. So let's say that you're insatiably curious and, um, and you're not very good at something. Can you be masterful or are you on on the process or on the path of mastery? Okay, so I would say to you, and this will be fun, I'm going to challenge you back. So when I would say, what defines mastery, right? So is there a set of criteria that would say I've now mastered this subject? Well, it depends on the subject. I mean, I, you know, I don't, I think that most people that I've had conversations with that are on the world stage and working as hard as you can imagine at their craft, they're saying that, no, no, no, no,

there's so much more for me to learn. I have no idea yet. So like most people have this really humble orientation because they realize that they know so little and there's so much more to know. So I don't know how where you're going to take this part of the conversation. I think I do. I think I do. I can say very clearly and humbly that I believe I've mastered empathy and I've mastered empathy, empathy for those who have suffered a traumatic, some type of traumatic abuse in their lifetime, whether it's physical,

sexual or emotional. Okay. So empathy is like the thing that you've come to understand most. And if it's, if, um, okay, so let's,

let's unwind this a little bit. You had a resistance to the word domination. And can you speak to that or dominating as part of the traditional definition in mastery? So can you speak to that? And then can you kind of unwind this a bit and get to early life efforts and experiences that have shaped you to be masterful at empathy? Yes. So I think that resistance I felt to mastery was that sense of domination.

And when I think of domination, someone dominates, right? So already within that dynamic, there is a victim. Got it. Okay, so in sport, we talk about often like being a dominant competitor, dominating your opponents and like breaking people's wills. It sounds so off it, like there's such an, like an alpha win, lose binary experience. And so you have an immediate reaction to that. And you said you had it in your body. Yes, I did. You use your body as a vehicle for like, how do you use your body? My body is my sensor. It measures everything for me. So if I pay attention,

it's a great tool. Okay. All right. So we have to understand how you pay attention to your body and then how you've come to learn that. I'd love to do that. So if you can unwind just a little bit and say, okay, here's what early life was like, and then that'll get shaped some orientation for us to get into the mechanics of mastering empathy. Okay. So, um, and I, and I'd love to share a story for you about how I learned, um, that I had to listen to my body, but we don't, we don't like stories. Stories are no good. I don't learn through stories. I don't think anyone. Okay. Stop. Yeah, I love when people tell stories. Yeah, let's go.

Okay. So I grew up in a very large Catholic Italian family. What part of Italy? So my parents were from Ferenzi, both very small little towns north of Rome. And my mom came over on the boat, as we used to say, when she was a child. And my dad actually came over first generation, but both still spoke Italian. It was difficult to integrate. For you or for them?

For them. Okay. So then they had six kids. My dad had his own company. And, you know, we were a sort of very fun-loving Catholic Italian. We had lots of fun. You know, we had a little cottage that my dad and a couple uncles built. And so, you know, we'd spend the summers out there and, you know, very idyllic. And what part of the country? We were in the Midwest in Michigan. Okay, perfect. So, you know, from the outside,

you know, it was just this, you know, in fact, my pediatrician's nurse once turned to me and said, guys, you have such an amazing family. And on many levels, we did. You know, it was, you know, Sunday morning pancake contests and, you know, Sunday night screenings of my dad had an eight millimeter camera. And, you know, we did. But, you know, my parents brought over a lot of that Italian tradition, which was boys were it, you know, sort of the culture and the growth of the family comes from the male. So there was already inbred in our bones. It was in our bones that boys were important. So boys were it and girls not so much.

So we learned very early in our family that boys were important. And they were the future of our family. And so as a girl in that family, um, I always felt less than. So I was, um, I was sexually abused by the time I was seven. Uh, geez, cousin, brother, dad. Um, my cousin sexually assaulted me. It's kind of a weird story and I'll condense it. But, um, when I was seven and I did not, uh, get those memories back until I was in my mid twenties. And so, um, many of those events were very traumatic. So the story that I want to share, which sort of emphasizes how important it is to really understand your body. As a child, I was sick a lot. And I could never really figure out why.

And the minute I graduated from college, I worked for the Detroit Free Press for a little bit. And then packed my car and moved out to Southern California. And we lived in, God, I think we were in Toluca Lake at the time, and I was working in the entertainment business. And I had some friends come out from high school, and they were working on a record deal. And so I said, you can all sleep on our floor. They slept there. A whole group of guys slept on our floor for months and, you know, ate mac and cheese and tried to get a record label, a record deal. And one day we all we'd all gone out and we climbed we climbed up to the Hollywood sign. And we came down and took some pictures and we all jumped back in the car, and I, there were so many people in the car that I had to jump on my friend Richie, his lap in the front, and one of the guys in the back closed the door, but they closed it on my

hand, right, and so, you know, I said, Davey, open the door, and, you know, we were all, you know, I think we had a few beers, we were celebrating, we were having fun. And Davey's like, no, why do you want me to open the door? And I finally said, Davey, please open the door. My hand's in the door. And everyone in the car started screaming except me. And I pulled my hand out. I never screamed. I never felt it.

And when I looked at my crushed hand, I realized the first thought that went through my head is, okay, you can't feel this, Michaelene. Something's wrong. So you had been, if I can kind of guess, you've been dealing with so much pain that you just disassociated completely from the way it actually felt. Absolutely. Yeah. And then, so you had this moment where you saw your peers, your friends, uh, who you were having a good time with, you trusted at some level, they were living with you and you said, huh, my reaction is different than theirs. Yes. Yeah. Well, they were screaming and I was not saying a word. Yeah. So it was a very shocking event for me. And I said, you know,

Mike, you need some help. Okay. So what is, go into that moment for me, like that particular, because, and I'll tell you why I'm, well, your entire story, I need to learn better about it. Like I want to learn more about your response because what you've done in your professional career is phenomenal. We haven't even gotten to any of that, but I want to know about that moment that you had, you had a moment where you could have, I don't know, told yourself a story like I'm so tough. Look at them freaking out. Or you could have had a moment where you many, many different responses, but your response was to do something to change. Yes.

And do you, can you go, can you unwind that just a little bit and unpack that moment even more? Yeah, well, you know what? And I have to unpack one other moment because I think when I, when I thought of that moment, the first thing I thought about was an experience I had as a kid when we were at our cottage. And I never understood it until that very moment when my hand came out of the car door. So when your hand was coming out of the car door, you flashed to something else? Yes. Okay, so you saw their reaction. Do you remember that?

Yes. Do you remember which came first, their reaction, your looking at your hand, or going back to another story? So fascinating. So the first thing I noticed was they're screaming. Okay. And then I looked at my hand and you know, I looked at it and saw that it was, I mean, it still had the indentations from the metal, right? And I could feel nothing. Like I, I actually checked my body. You know how you scan your body and I could feel nothing. Like I actually checked my body, you know how you scan your body,

and I could feel nothing. And so then I flashed to when I was a child at our cottage. And, you know, we were all running around, my dad had run over a blue racer, it was a snake from Michigan. And he had hung it on the clothesline. my brother took it off and he took it with a stick and started chasing all of us and we're all screaming and running around and and you know from the outside it looks like oh my god what fun right and I remember hearing a voice inside of my head and it said I'm leaving you now I'm going away and I kind of got freaked out I thought oh my god am I you know something wrong with me am I mentally ill and it just said no no um I need to go away and it was one so I literally went into the corner of the cottage and just on the outside and started weeping and I couldn't for the life of me figure out why I was doing that. Okay. How old were you at that time?

Probably 10, 11. And so you're in pain and go back to the car. So you're in the car and then you're remembering like the third memory or the third thing that you processed was this moment where you separated as a kid, right? So there was the scary little thing. It was supposed to be fun for most, like kind of scary fun for most kids at 10, like older brother chasing around with a dead snake. Right. And, but, but that triggered a, almost a break. Yes.

Is that right? Okay. Absolutely. And that was, that was your coping strategy for, for the earlier trauma that you had. Yes. Okay. Okay. Keep going. that you had yes okay okay keep going and so and I somehow realized that those two were very connected I mean I don't know if it was conscious or subconscious and then I literally um went to my doctor's office who probably one of the few men at this time that I trusted and uh he was he's a great guy uh so he was my regular doctor and i walked in and

i asked to see him and i went in and i he closed the door and i told him okay wait wait wait hold on hold on so go back to your go back into the car you're flashing back to that moment and what did that what did that mean to you when i flashed back to me as a young girl. Yeah, as a 10-year-old, yeah. I think what I felt, you know, I scanned my body again and I felt complete darkness. Okay, so what does darkness mean to you? Emptiness. Okay. Yeah, emptiness.

And then so you're having this moment of like you're scanning, you're remembering some strategy that you had of trauma to disassociate, but you're in your car, your friends are freaking out. Now, take me back to how you dealt with that moment. I'm laughing because how I dealt with it was how I dealt with it my whole life. I started laughing. Yeah. Okay. All right. You know, it's kind of like, you know,. I started laughing. Yeah. Okay. All right. It's kind of like when everyone starts laughing, it was tense for a minute because

everyone was kind of like, what's she going to do? And I just kind of laughed. And then everyone started laughing and we went home. Okay. All right. So you had this outer experience and this inner experience. And the two didn't match. Yes. But don't

get me wrong. That moment was life altering for me. I laughed and we went home, but I knew something was, something had shifted. And it was the, it was the, the dissonance between the two that was so stark that you almost had like this observer of the experience.

Is that, is that, I don't want to put any words in your mouth, but you're watching. Yeah, absolutely. of the experience is that is that I don't want to put any words in your mouth but you're watching yeah absolutely and that dissonance was how I dealt with the abuse I experienced as a child okay so go back how old were you in the car early 20 early 20s okay there you go so and then the abuse was it was at one time? Was it many times? I know you said it was three people at least, but was it frequent?

Or was it, not that that really matters, but I'm just trying to get a picture of what, you know, young Michaelene was like, what it was like. Yeah. Well, and I think it does, and it's important. So, you know, Michaelene was sort of this happy-go-lucky kind of, you know, never really had time to eat. I was always running around. And I kind of, yeah, I think I was just a happy-go-lucky kid. And when it happened when I was seven, I think that, you know, there are a lot of memories that don't come back. But when my cousin sexually assaulted me on the bed, it started with when I began to remember those those what happened. It was not that I suddenly remembered my cousin sexually assaulted me. It was I kept seeing this blue and white striped shirt in my dreams and I kept waking up in the night.

You know, you know how you wake up startled and drenched in sweat. and it kept waking up in the night you know you know how you wake up startled and drenched in sweat and i kept waking up this is again in uh as i began to get therapy and get help right okay this is after the car incident this is after the car incident okay so that that became the trigger and for like change in some kind of way absolutely that became the trigger so you started doing some therapy and then it opened up uh some memory yeah yeah okay and it was a blue and white whatever uh shirt blue and white shirt blue and white striped shirt right good yeah okay and so it just it kept coming up and i'd wake up um startled and my heart beating rapidly and i said what is? And then the shirt would start

to morph. And it just became terrifying. If you can imagine a blue and white striped shirt becoming terrifying, right? And I went into the therapist's office and I started to tell her this story. And then suddenly I started shaking and all the memories came out. And what had happened is that as my cousin assaulted me on the bed, and mind you, he forced his private parts into my mouth. And I was seven. I had no concept of sexuality at that point, right? And I remember as I sort of moved, literally, when you talk about dissonance, I literally stepped above my body. I looked around and saw my brother in the corner watching in this blue and white striped

shirt. Got it. Okay. I think my body was trying to give me enough information to help me process it, but it didn't come all at once, thank God. Okay. to help me process it. But it didn't come all at once, thank God. Okay, so your body, meaning at that moment in therapy, is where you started to integrate? Yes, absolutely.

Okay, so how long? So I think it was always interesting. Tell me if you agree with this or I'm crazy about it. But the reason people change is because of pain. People always ask me about, like about how do you help people change? I don't help anybody change other than maybe waking them up to the real pain. And so what do you think about that statement that the reason people change is because of pain? I think that's very true, actually. You do? If that they choose to move into the pain they can choose not to move into pain that's what you had done for a while that was one of your strategies was to like i don't know create a

story or disassociate to not deal with the pain because it felt like it was too much yes yeah and it probably was at that time you didn't have the skills to to figure it out and i i literally just focused on my career i figured you know what i'm just gonna focus so yeah i think uh but people can choose not to do that so how did you i'm sorry how did you how did you focus during school like how did you do the early experiences when you had this this other experience that was happening that was so traumatic that you couldn't be part of your own body. Right? And almost, yeah, so I think that's a fair way to say it.

How did you do school? How did you do college? How did you do, but I'm thinking more of like grade school. The grade school was harder. I think that I remember at one point wishing that, and I was in private Catholic school my whole life, and I was wishing that somebody would ask me, right? Wishing that somebody could read my mind. But no one ever did.

So I struggled. struggled um when i got into middle school and you know i began uh become i became a cheerleader you know was very popular you know all the way through high school and college so when you think about it many people who know me or knew me then would say god she had this perfect life right dated the captain of the football team was a cheerleader you know and uh so it was a persona that uh i couldn't escape got it okay so you had this idyllic life from the outside inside it wasn't so that way but you didn't quite know exactly uh how to deal with it right okay You just kind of put it somewhere? I locked it away. And some of that was the fact that some of those memories I've always had, but what happened is there was such a disconnection from them, there was no emotional

attachment. By the way, you can ask me anything. I'm so beyond what happened to me that you can. It's a good opportunity to ask me anything. OK, cool. What the thought I have right now is like, what is it like to talk about this? Because even in this conversation, because it was so locked away for a long time. I know you did a lot of work, but I'm wondering if there's any emotional charge when you do talk about it. No, there's no emotional charge. And then can you tell me why? Yeah, I think it's because I've really worked my way through it for so long. And I feel like it is part of my mission on this earth to help people who haven't. So I'll give you an example. When I get a charge, it's not the kind of charge that you're thinking about. So I'll have a friend who finds

out that, you know, I was molested by my father and they'll say something like, I don't know how you could ever talk to your father again. And then that, those comments make me realize how far I've come. Like, wow, I remember when I thought that, like, I remember when I thought my blood was tainted. Right. And now it's like, oh, my God, I'm so lucky that I got through it, that I had a chance to talk to my father, that my family all knows. I mean, those are big milestones for me. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters.

And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested. NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the Momentus 3, protein, creatine, and omega-3.

And together, these foundational nutrients support muscle recovery, brain function, and long-term energy. They're part of my daily routine. And if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best, Momentus has a great new offer just for our community right here. Use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 35% off your first subscription order at livemomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, livemomentous.com, and use the code FindingMastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Gray. I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance.

How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time. It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Grey is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster, and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Grey's in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for

longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix gray. You spell it F E L I X G R a y.com and use the code finding mastery 20 at Felix gray.com for 20% off. Okay. So do you consider

yourself resilient, strong? Um, like how do you, how do you think about yourself being through going through some heavy stuff as a kid that you didn't ask to go through? Like a lot of times these conversations that we talk about, like people purposely choose to put themselves in rugged and hostile environments. And you're like, yeah, I listen, I lived that before I was qualified to do so. And I didn't ask. That's I think at the essence of why I'm really interested in how you did what you did. But so how do you describe or think about yourself as a, as a person? So I, I think I would describe myself as someone who is resilient

and determined. And the one, the one thing that I never wanted to be is I didn't want to be that person who was abused as a kid. So I didn't want, I, it was a promise. I remember saying to myself, I said, I don't want what happened to me to define who I am. Got it. It just, it was just a series of events and I don't mean to belittle it, but it is, it doesn't define who I am. So what does define, like how, how do you define yourself? I define myself by my passion and my commitment um to changing to changing those things that i've experienced and then you also like you have a interest to want to help others that haven't figured out how to do so yes okay do you have like a way that you help people or is there a process that you help people become strong that feel weak?

You know, it's a really good question. I first, when I started speaking out on these issues after, after I, you know, you can't speak out on these issues when you are still in the middle of it. Because you're too raw, you're too traumatized. I think when I felt I was on the other side and I had confronted family and done all that, I really think that, I know this is going to sound strange, but I could actually go in a room and based on the questions, I could tell you who was abused. Come on.

Swear to God. Okay, all right, let's go. Give me a sense of some of these. Well, the obvious ones are those who are cutting or, you know, those who come up and say it happened to me. That's easy, but you can ask. So the question is, have you been abused like that? No, no, no. I know, I know, I know.

Sorry. Okay. I knew, I know the answer to that one. Okay. Yeah, keep going. But they will ask, they will couch a question in a way that I know the answer to that one. Okay. Yeah. Keep going. But they will ask, they will couch a question in a way that I know they've been abused. Oh, so the, oh, so the questions that they ask. So you go maybe talk or, and do you talk about your films? I do talk about my films. It depends on the audience. Okay. So when you talk to people, it's not about your work. It's more about your mission. It depends. So when you talk to people, it's not about your work. It's more about your mission.

Um, it depends. So for example, I just came back from Michigan state where I actually spoke at the meaningful play conference, which is a, a gaming conference. And you know, the, the great thing about that is I do believe there's a huge correlation to what happens, things of rape and assault and abuse, and the world in which we live. So my message that day was, I didn't share my story. But what I did is shared what's happening in America and how much, let's just talk about video games, affects how we view women and girls. Okay, is that where your efforts are right now, is in the gaming space and working to reshape the respect or the orientation about the female gender? You know, it's interesting. I think it really depends on, again, back to the audience. So I

think I've worked a bit in sports. I work a bit on, with sororities and fraternities. I sort of, you know, when you talk about master, I think there's such an, there's such a link between all these issues that I can really see, you know, how we are not evolving, how we're actually moving backwards in terms of respect for women and girls. So it's not just media. Does that make sense? It's quite a few components. Okay. So, so how, how, I think this will help. I don't know if I got to the questions that, but I think that you're just saying that you can sense when people ask particular questions that, that you're like, ah, I see you. I see where

you're coming from. Like, so it's not necessarily like the questions you ask somebody, but the way that they ask you something. And it could be the tone of their voice or it could be the actual particular question, but it's more of the complete essence of the person when they ask a question. Absolutely. Okay. Go ahead, please. And I, I mean I've had, I know that, so I remember one incident where I was speaking, when I had worked on my first book, and my first book I talk about when my father's passing and how I forgave him. And so that, after the event, I remember this woman walking towards me and I look at their body language.

I look at, um, sort of their stature and I could tell something serious had happened and she hadn't even spoken a word yet. Right. And it turned out her husband, uh, who had been abused became a perpetrator and she was trying to find a way to stay with him and work through it. Got it. Okay. So you have a way to pick up on that. And I think that that's a form of intelligence that many people that are really skilled have that sort of attunement to the central part of whatever, whether it's a coach that can pick up a particular, I don't know,

movement of hips or movement of shoulder movement to say, okay, that athlete's got something special or an athlete. I don't know if you know this, but athletes, expert athletes or world-class athletes, if you stop a video mid play that I have, I don't know if you know this, but they can pick up where like the trajectory of the ball is going to go, say tennis. And at the same point, if you stop it at the same exact point and you ask a novice, the variance of their predictions is all over the place. And so the expert or the world-class athlete is just picking up some subtle cues that the rest of us can't find. We don't know to pick it up. And that's one of the reasons they can play

instead of work while they're doing their thing is because they're subconsciously picking up so much information that the rest of us are not. So when you think about my survival as a child, those cues became critical to that. Okay. So can you give me a couple of clues on what those might be for you? Yeah. Give me a couple of clues on what those might be for you. Yeah, I think that if I look at someone coming in the room, I sort of go through the scan. Are they friendly? Are they friend or foe? Are they large, small?

Am I in danger? I always look at their eyes and their face because I can see, I can feel whether they're angry, right? I think that many people are expressive about that. So it was literally a scan of, okay, what is my situation here? And do I need to find a way out? Okay. So even now, you're on more of an alert than most people, or you're just attuned to it. Like I see it. I know what that looks like because

I had to deal with it for so long. Um, I think I, it's just a skillset I have. I think it depends. And I don't want to jump into my experience in prison in Zimbabwe, but I think, um, that skillset saved me. Okay. Did you say prisons in Zimbabwe? Prison in Zimbabwe, but I think that skill set saved me. Okay. Did you say prisons in Zimbabwe? Prison in Zimbabwe. Yeah. You were in prison or you visited prisons? No, I was thrown in prison in Zimbabwe. Yeah. Let's forget that story. Let's go on to something more interesting. Jesus. I love that. Okay. So yeah, I don't want to talk about the time that, you know, okay, so, and this has got to be related to the film that was fascinating, Tapestries of Hope.

Yes. Okay, so give the quick line that, you know, you're working with a social activist in Zimbabwe. Give the overview of yeah yeah so tapestries of hope i was i was working with uh an activist over there born and raised zimbabwean who um was doing incredible things there's a myth in zimbabwe in many parts of the world that if you rape a virgin you will cure your aids and so uh the activist was a woman by the name of betty mcconey who she created an amazing program over there in fact a program that's far better than what we have here with all our resources so I went over to profile her in her work and you know it was pretty remarkable mm-hmm and you produced it directed it you wrote you did the whole thing yes yeah what did you get the funding for that was that did you just strap a couple cameras and folks and like go to work or did you have did you have

full funding for that no we had funding well the thing was uh you know i spent a lot of time in hollywood and literally when i when i went out west my goal was to be a film director and i worked for the studios i I worked for Kathy Kennedy at Amblin with Spielberg. So I was very successful down there, but there wasn't a shot in hell that someone would let me direct. So I literally, when I moved up north, decided to do it myself. So I, when I did Tapestries of Hope, that was already my second film. And I was the second person ever to fund on Indiegogo, which was at that point, you know, very early social cause funding. And we raised the money on Indiegogo. And then it was literally my assistant and I took a camera and went over. Okay. Yeah. And then how did you find

yourself into jail? So, yeah, it was a, you know, we had gone through the right channels to go over there and we made sure that we had permission to the ministry of information. So I wasn't, I wasn't being duplic, duplic, and I can't even say the word. I wasn't being covert or anything about what we were doing. And what happened is. Is the word duplicit? Is that the word? Yes, thank you. Duplicit? Yeah, okay. I think duplicitous.

Duplicitous. I wasn't there yet. And so when we went over, we were right on, this was 2007. So Zimbabwe was already in the midst of some serious upheaval there was an election coming up and lots of poverty so I wasn't quite aware that things were as bad as they were and you could tell even when we flew into Zimbabwe because we had just come from Johannesburg in South Africa and Johannesburg was full of color and life and excited people going everywhere. And when we went to, we flew into Harare, even the lights at the airport were all dim, you know, so it was a very different experience. And we met Betty, she took us to our hotel. And I realized

then that I was I was in a country that was on the verge of collapse. So Betty and I started shooting. And the next day, the first day, we actually were stopped by the Central Intelligence Organization, who, much like our CIA, except for not much of a due process and everything you've read about a third world country is true in terms of just sort of not allowing due process, not allowing people to explain what they're doing. So they stopped us the first day and I was worried but we kept going. So probably roughly into the end of the first week, I had moved.

Now, keep in mind at this time, there was no food on the shelves in the stores. Bottled water was hard to get. And we were staying at a hotel, so we had access to bottled water. And then we started shooting in rural areas. So we moved over to Betty McConey's house. So we were going out to an area that had never seen white people before. It was in the McConey tribe, who Betty is a part of, is the largest tribe in Zimbabwe. And they are the largest voting bloc in Zimbabwe. So despite Mugabe's challenges on voting,

it was a tribe that was very important to him. So I literally went out that morning for an American breakfast and a Diet Coke, and I came back and there were 15 Central Intelligence men standing with various rifles, AK-47s, and telling us that we had to go to jail. And then? So they took us, you know, I was a bit naive. They took us to this, it was a Harare jail. At that time, I didn't know it was attached to the torture centers in Balboa, right?

Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Okay, so let's go back to that moment really quickly where they said okay gig is up you got to go with us and you're going to jail what was what was that do you remember i'm trying to go back to the door moment and see if there's any parallels but maybe there isn't but do you remember anything from that moment oh i do trust me i i have one of these minds that remembers everything okay i can tell you what i was wearing what the you know we they actually took us in the back of the pickup truck, right? And it was so, I just thought it was kind of like, oh, you know, who's going to care about this woman doing a documentary on rape?

Like, it was so silly, right? And then I remember being in the back of the truck, and I reached to my bag, because I was just going to get some of that stuff you get to clean your hands with. I don't know what it's called, but I went in to reach for it. And one of the agents said, stop. And I said, OK. And he was panicked, like I was going to pull out a gun or something. Right. And so then I sort of got an inkling that, OK, you know what?

This might not be as simple as you think. So, again, afterwards, we learned all this. But I ended up it was Betty, myself and my assistant, Lauren, and they split us up and started interrogating all of us. And the head of the Central Intelligence interrogated me and he was convinced I was a CIA spy. And, Mike, you know me enough to know that I'm a smartass, right? So it was during George W.'s tenure in the White House, and this guy in front of me, he was sitting at his desk, and he had like three grenades on the front of his dress. And he had a gun hanging from a wall just on a like a long nail and he turns to me and he says uh you are a cia cia spy and i started laughing because

it was so ludicrous i'm like i'm like i don't even like bush you know and he um he pounded his fist on his desk and he said you know we, we believe Mugabe and, um, President Bush are cut from the same cloth. And, um, and then he just started like grilling me, like, um, you know, they wanted me to go through my work history. So, so it was so surreal, you know, and I started saying, okay, my first job was at Kentucky Fried Chicken. I was 15. And then he'd slam on the desk, what is this? What is this? And I'd say, well, you roll the chicken in the dough. I mean, like, it was like, is this really happening? And so eventually, they, you know, again, I didn't know this at the time, but he, the head of the CIO, was known for his brutality.

He had killed many, many people. So eventually, they let Betty go home, and they threw Lauren and I into what was the torture centers in Baldwin. And Lauren is your sister? No, Lauren is my assistant. She was. Assistant. Yes. She was your assistant.

She was my assistant. Okay. What happened? You say that like she didn't make it out? No, no, is my assistant. She was. Assistant. Yes. She was your assistant. She was my assistant. Okay. What happened? You say that like she didn't make it out? No, no, she did. Oh, my God, she did. Okay, yeah. That would be a different story.

Okay. She's fine. But when they put us in, you know, we had a number of people. So it was kind of, you know, they all said, you know, in Zimbabwean culture, like if I said to you, do you want a Diet Coke, right, or you want a Coke, what would you say to me? American, you'd say yes, right, or no. In Zimbabwe, if I asked somebody if they wanted a Coke, they'd say, yes, it's okay. And so I kept hearing, yes, it's okay. I'm like, do I need to worry?

Are we going to be okay? And they'd say, yes, it's okay. I'm like, do I need to worry? Are we going to be okay? And they'd say, yes, it's okay. So when they, by the time they locked us up into this, you know, this big iron gate, I hadn't expected them to do it. And then secondly, there was a woman, Maria, I'll never forget her name, who was also, she was a police officer. And I said, Maria, what are you doing? She said, well, we need to lock you up so that you don't leave. And I said, how could I leave? You already took my passport.

And she said, well, you're going to need to stay here. And I said, well, I looked around. It was co-ed, overcrowded, feces and urine everywhere. So it was a pretty bad place. And I said, do we need to worry about rape? And she started laughing. She said, oh, you Americans. She said, you will have your own room. You'll be safe and I'll see you tomorrow. And of course that was not the case. Okay. Yeah. Meaning that you were victimized there or you could just you could feel that that was

something that was going to happen well this meaning that it was there was no way first off we did not get our own room right okay that's what you're saying yeah okay and secondly there was no possible way that she could control what's happening in this prison. Um, you have lots of disease, there's no food or water. So, um, you know, people were on their own. I saw, you know, I saw someone get tortured. I saw, uh, sort of a forced sexual encounter. So it wasn't like I got, I got urinated on, I stepped in feces. So, you know, you realize pretty quickly that, you know, there's not a damn thing, um, that they could do to help you. And then you used your survival strategies to navigate through this survival experience?

Yes, very much so. What are the one or two tells that you could pass on to us that maybe some of us could learn or train or get better at? I think that, so the Zimbabwean infrastructure, you know, there's electricity and water, all the sort of going in and out in the country. And because of that, they allowed me to keep my phone, right? Which is kind of strange. So I would get periodic calls, right? I'd get a call from the U.S. embassy and they'd say, you need to get out by the weekend or you're going to be raped or killed. And I'd say, well, you know, wait a minute, aren't you going to help me? And they'd say, we're lucky if we see you after the first 48 hours. So what that told me is, we're on our own. And then I used the same phone,

and I pretended that I was talking to my assistant. We were waiting to get fingerprinted. And I pretended that I was talking to her when I had called one of the producers on the film and basically told them we needed help. So I think it was using every advantage that I could. A number of people, when we were in prison, kept giving me their own phone numbers and saying, please, can you help me get to America? I need to get out of here. And so I used those relationships as much as I could.

Okay. So it's a craftiness. Is that a fair word? Yes. And a gut. And a gut because, for example, there's this woman who came up to me and she had this pink sweater on. And my hair stood up. I go, something's weird here. And so I still had my money at that time. And I had given one of the guys money so we could find a way to get into a holding cell that wasn't so horrible. And she came up to me and she said, did you give that man money? And what I realized is she was an undercover cop and they were trying to find ways to keep us in prison. And so I just said, oh, no, I owed him money. Right. And so you had to be alert. You know, it's kind of like when people ask me, well, how long were you in prison?

And I say three days and they go, Oh, well, that's not long. I mean, you have to realize that every minute, um, you have a life threatening decision.

So my, the second day in prison, is that real? Or are you being dramatic? Like every minute there's, there's, you're not because you have no protection so i'll give you a couple examples the second day in my assistant went into shock and okay so think

about zimbabwe all of the doctors have fled the country hospitals are closed and my assistant goes into shock what do i do and one of of the central intelligence guys had a crush on her. He had never seen a blonde. He had never seen blue eyes, right? She was blonde. She was cute and vivacious. And he was fascinated with her. So here's my risk.

Okay. I can get him to help her. He can very easily go off and rape her, and there's not a damn thing I can do. Wow. Okay. Those are the types of decisions. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Three days is a long time. Yes, it is. Okay. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines

into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler

and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating.

If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is Finding Mastery for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple.

And they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com

slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. So let me see if I can get some perspective now that you're looking back, what was harder? The 72 hours of life-threatening decisions that you had to make where you didn't know if you're going to live or die. The going through the work of your early trauma through therapy and the work that you did, kind of that internal work, or the trauma that you had early life. And I hope I'm not don't, I don't, I hope I'm not asking something insensitive, but I want to try to get a sense of like how those three compare to each other. Okay. So I'm going to toss in another one here. So of course you are just

keep unfolding, keep unfolding. That's good. Um, so I found the hardest thing, and I will say that's probably the most poignant moment of my life, was sitting in that prison cell. And, you know, here I thought I'd been doing really good things to impact and change the world, right? What were those things? By that time? Yeah. By that time, I had done my first film on child sexual abuse in America. I did the first national film on child sexual abuse in America, I did the first national curriculum on child sexual abuse. We won a bunch of awards. It's screened on PBS. So

I think I felt I was already beginning to push the conversation. And then my book came out where I talked about my own experiences with sexual abuse. This is not the life I ordered. Yes. So then, you know, here I am filming my second film and thinking, you know what? I've been speaking out. We're trying to shift things. And I literally sat in that cell and I said, shit, I'm going to leave my kids without a mom. And then I realized that I was being selfish. So imagine. So that was probably the most poignant moment in my life.

I'm like, here I am thinking I'm doing really good things. And by doing that, I could do the worst thing I could ever imagine. How many kids? Three boys. Yeah. Okay. So and how old were they at the time? Let's see, six, five, and probably six months. Yeah. So young.

So I get this question all the time about people who go for it, you know, whether it's jumping out of outer space or jumping out of a parachute or jumping out of a plane like Luke Aikens did without a parachute from 25,000 feet or whatever high adventure activity people do. And the question is, well, gosh, they must be really selfish people because they can't love their mom. They can't love their kids. They just self-absorbed. Like I hear that a lot. And I have this like response, like, no, man, I feel bad for you because I don't think you understand. And so I'd love for you to talk about like, how do you answer that? Because you lived it, where you were on a mission, you had a full passion, and then you thought maybe you were going to die.

And the thought you have is, oh, my gosh, I'm blowing it. Yeah. Okay. Help me understand. Yeah. Well, I think the single most important thing we can do is raise good, healthy kids. And whether you're an intact family or various versions of intact family, I think it's really critical. I don't think there's anything else in life that I will do that is more important.

Okay, how? How do we do that? Because you're a risk taker. Yeah. You took risks to do the internal work. You took risks to punch over to Zimbabwe. You took risks to talk about your early childhood. So how do we raise children and not take risks? But if we take risks, there's that pull that we're being selfish. Yes.

A la your experience in Zimbabwe's jail cell. Yeah. Well, you know, it is, I think it's something that I think about every day and I wanted to make sure that I was there to, to be with my kids and work with my husband to raise them. And the idea that I would leave them abandoned, um, was, uh, almost unbearable. And so I think... Okay, so that became an unbearable, that's a really strong word coming from you, from what you've experienced. That was an unbearable thought and emotion

in the jail in Zimbabwe, where you had realized that, okay, was it selfishness? Like you feel like you were not doing the thing that was most important, which is raising children. Well, but see, I had already had made a decision to raise those children. Right. So, and you also made a decision. This is okay. This is really important to me. Sorry to be selfish. No, no, no, no, no. So, so you've made a decision to go follow your career, your path, your passion, your purpose in life. And that was really clear. It's like, I'm going to be an activist for people that can't have a voice because I didn't have one. I

wish someone could read my mind. No one was getting it and I couldn't speak. So I'm going to go on this adult journey and I'm going to help as many people as I possibly can. Okay. So you had that mission. And then you also had a dual mission, which is I want to raise beautiful children to become beautiful adults. Okay. So then there's a moment where you have conflict and I feel this moment all the time. And so, yeah, I feel this all the time. And the all the time experiences, I'm off into the frontier doing whatever I'm doing and, and I'm not at home or when I'm at home, I'm loving my family and loving my wife and my son. And, and then I'm not, not pushing the boundary as far as I know I can in my passion. And it's not that I like, I'm, I have disdain for either one.

I love both. I want to spend, if it was possible, 100% of the time in both. That's just, that's just not possible for me right now. So how do you, how are you doing that? Well, so it's so fascinating to hear you talk about this because, you know what, I would challenge you and say, you know what, I know you want to be in both 100%, but it's that other part that defines who you are. It's like both of them, right? They're both components who make up, you know, Mike Gervais. And I think it's that pain and that yearning, the balance between both, is the thing that actually is part of my makeup.

And I'm trying to resolve it, but it gives me a great edge. Yeah, good luck. I know. It gives me a great edge, and I have lots of spirit and passion around it. But at the same time, there's a turmoil. And I don't know. You know what be careful what you wish for right because i've noticed one of the things i really embedded in my boys is

make a difference in the world and um it comes out in really interesting ways okay so so is your mission okay so is it long is it intense and deep with few or is it, um, large impact across many? I'd say large impact across many. Okay. I w I'd love to be part of a tectonic shift. Okay. Yeah, I hear that. Okay. You're, you're not, you're not helping me in my dilemma other than saying good luck, but it's quite all right. I'm right there with you. Sorry, Mike. Yeah, no, that's good. Okay. So, all right. I'm right there with you. Sorry, Mike. Yeah, no, it's good. Okay. So, all right. So then you have this, you have this moment that the hardest moment in your life was when you had the crisis in the, um, and tell me if I'm

wrong, but in that moment where you realized that you were not being true to your family mission and, um, and then what do you do with that crisis? It was a tough one because what I did is, well, I waited to see. So in that moment, I was also terrified, right? Okay. So did you cry? Did you get steely? Did you get weak?

Did you get strong? What did you do with that? Yeah. It's a really good question. So I had two concerns. So Lauren was much younger. And I was worried about her, and I felt a responsibility to her. And so I kept a lot of what I heard from the US Embassy and situation that we were in, away from her. Because I was worried about, you know, I traveled, I'd experienced the world and I'd been in situations, not similar, but yeah, kind of similar to this, right? So I,

and by the way, I made the choice. She really didn't make a choice to be in this situation, right? And so I was very worried about her. And then at the same time, I was thinking about how the heck we're going to get out of here. So I became steely. I became focused. And I used my money where I could to keep us as safe as possible. Now, at this point, were you integrated or were you disassociation? Were you using an old strategy or your new strategies to deal with high stress? God, I love your question. So, no, I do not disassociation we're using an old strategy or your new strategies to deal with with high stress god i love your questions so no i do not disassociate anymore never have you're done with that and that didn't re-trigger it okay so you you became integrated right yes yeah and

and okay so i it feels like in my 20s i became integrated in my 20s and that was from your internal work with a therapist. Okay. And then, and how long did that take? Okay. Let's say five years at least. And then if you, if you could have done that better, what would have been, what would have been the shortest time you think that, that you could have done it? I would say half of that. Half that. Yeah.

And then what got in the way of you doing it better? Life, having to survive and have to, you know, pay bills and you know what I mean? Having to live life. Okay. So it was like time away where you couldn't marinate in the growth.

Like you were doing, you were paying bills and licking stamps like that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, so you think about it and it's part of what i'm doing with my new book is you know i had it was such a luxury to be able to afford therapy so many people can't so um you know i felt it was a gift okay yeah and that and

what what are you doing with your new book so uh what I did with this new book is I took, so I talked into tape recorder when I went through this healing process. And I took all of those words and I put them into any young woman's journal. So I created a journal and then I hired a clinical psychologist to do progress notes against my actual experience with the idea that no matter what happens to you, whether it's physical, emotional, or sexual, you can go, oh, here's where I am. And here's, you know, where I need to go. Oh, so a reader could look at your experience as well as professionals take on your experience and they can identify somewhere on that journey.

And for those who can't afford therapy, yes. Are there stages that are well understood for survivors of abuse and molestation or rape? Yes, absolutely. What are those? I think I wouldn't say they necessarily come in a linear order. OK. But I think rage is one. And I was sort of if you look at a I literally have a drawing where I put girls on one side or boys on the other. And I look at how we are taught as children. And one of the things I was taught as a young woman is be nice, get along, I never would but that rage was really more the only thing I'd say is

terrifying it really was terrifying okay so I think it's terror and then I think you have to come to terms with so it's it's terror understanding you know I had another issue that not necessarily everyone has is that dissonance. You know, I had to reconnect to my body. Yeah, that integration, that journey is a long journey. It's been my experience, at least. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So rage and terror, same thing. and then understanding and then some sort of integration. Yes, and then I think it's really various forms of confrontation. Oh, yeah, okay.

And people, you know, confrontation is not for, you know, to get back at, or it's really part of the healing process, and it's a critical part of the healing process. But it doesn't mean that you have to confront the abuser or the family. There's lots of ways to do it. I, however, did confront at least two of my perpetrators. Oh, you did? Mm-hmm. Here's where the learning comes in.

So when I finally, over a series of years, got to the point... That's actually not... From my experience, that's not recommended. Oh, I would completely disagree okay cool teach however um it's not it is a tumultuous journey right yeah so when i finally got to the point where uh my mother came out and we flew down to see my brother so i could confront him um it literally took, you know, five minutes in the room where I said, you know, hey, you know, you owe me an apology. And my brother turned to me and said, you know what, you're right. I'm so sorry. And then, now this is where the story continues. I get a call from my brother three weeks later. And he says,

you know, you weren't the only one abused. Oh, geez. Yeah. There you go. And so it is, it's a generational learned behavior. So, you know, unless we interrupt that, it's why the numbers are so high now. So what gives you the right to stand up to be the voice? And I don't mean publicly, publicly but for you like what gives you the internal stuff to say i'm going to stop my generational um dysfunction like what what what gave you the ability not necessarily the right i mean i do mean it in that kind of way but you know that sounds a little too aggressive but what gave you the the ability to do that you know what it was and oh clear. I did not want my children

to ever experience that. So you were afraid you were going to do it to them or you're going to marry? No, no, no. Yes. I was going to, you know, within a family like this, it's a learned behavior. You don't know who, right? Oh, okay. So it could be a cousin it could be an absolutely okay and a lot of times it is okay yeah okay so i i was committed to breaking that chain and uh stopping the generational abuse can you can you can you be a high performer like seriously uh like exceptional and have that type of personal trauma in the background? Or do you need to integrate at some level to really explore the boundaries of potential? Or do you think you can use it in such a way, even if you've never talked about it, work with anyone, you still disassociate under fear? Do you think you can be exceptional at your craft?

Yeah, great question. Yes to both. So I think you can use it as a driver. But I think when you get there, you know, I'll give an example when I was committed to getting to Amblin and work for Steven Spielberg, right? Well, when I got there, I was like, all right, here's the peak. I'm not very happy. And so I think you can get there and you get there, you know, really well. But I wanted to integrate and be happy. So I had to move to the other direction. So yes to both. And I could, you know, I'm not so sure. And, you know, I would say I'm not the type of person who is an asshole in business, but I think that there are a number who are, who come from this experience. So I think that it, yeah, I just not who I wanted to be in

life. Got it. And then, so that was another moment where you had all of the external success again, but you did it as an adult and you said, Oh, but the internal experience isn't right. Yes. And then, so what do you do with that? with that? Because I think that's more common than we think. I think so too. And what do you do with that? What did you do? I think that what I did is I kept digging. And I wanted to, you know, the thing about my experience is there were so many as a child

that it wasn't like, you know, one traumatic experience and then I could get past it. I really had to figure out who I was and how to integrate that and who I wanted to be going forward. So for people that have loving relationships with somebody who has been abused, right? Yes. And so what's the best way to be a friend of a partner, a lover? What is the best thing that somebody can do for those folks? Wow. Such a great question, because what probably many people don't understand is this affects every aspect of your life. And so it affects you in a sexual relationship.

It you know, this is going to go to adults right we're talking on a podcast that's for adults correct yeah well i i think there's there are kids that listen in the in the back seat of cars okay well so i mean literally do you want me to put like a little warning in the front of this one like listen adult adults only uh or or just that be aware um yeah okay and and and why i say it because i think those triggers happen and like in terms of my husband who you know was probably the first man that i met who when i told him what happened didn't run right and it played out in our sexual relationship because I remember I told you about my cousin who had assaulted me as a child, how part of that trigger, too, was in a sexual relationship. I could not be around semen without wanting to vomit.

Jeez, that makes it hard. Yeah. So but but those are that's a pretty dramatic, dramatic example. But it's even as simple as getting in a committed relationship. You know, how do you, how do you get in a committed relationship and not project that damage onto that relationship if you haven't worked it out? Right. And so what was the greatest gift he gave you or gives you? I think the greatest gift he gave me was his courage. To? Stay. Yeah. I think the greatest gift he gave me was his courage to stay yeah was his courage to stay and then not only courage to stay but to give me the freedom to use my voice it's been a great gift yeah they go really cool that's a I mean I would say that that's probably the gift of love that we want to give everybody

independent of you know childhood experiences childhood experiences or not. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, all right. I have one more kind of question around this piece, which is what are the emotions that are hardest for you? And what are the emotions that you're most skilled in? I think the emotions I'm most skilled in is collaborative, sensitive leadership. I think what I'm most uncomfortable with is aggressive domination.

So you're not good at being the aggressor or you're not good when somebody is an aggressor that you respond? Yeah yeah so it's a couple things so i mean having negotiated so many deals in my career right um i know how to be aggressive but it's aggressive i consider it in a positive way where i want to make sure everybody at the table goes away feeling like they got a little bit of what they wanted. When I see anger and aggression together, it really bothers me. Okay, got it. And I think that, yeah, I think, you know, it's funny, because I was sitting with a venture capitalist yesterday, and he had this theory about how leaders and successful leaders, you know, like Google and Microsoft,

all these different people, he said, the commonalities, the leaders are all assholes. And I said, you know, I got to challenge you on that. I said, those are the only phenotypes we have right now, but I think you can do it

without being an asshole. And I think, so going back to that, I think, you know, in another life, maybe I want to come back as a bitch. You do? Yeah, I think kind of. I would love to be a bitch. So how do you play that out now? I don't.

You don't at all? Well, I don't in the fantasy I have. You know, I can play hard and push hard. But, you know, there's something really powerful about a woman who doesn't give a crap about what people think. And she's just a bitch. But, you know, I don't know if I really want to be a bitch. So knowing what you know now, what would be the guidance you'd give to your younger self i think uh

you know i think my guidance to my younger self would be love actually because I think that there was such an emptiness uh to my younger self that I think that would have helped me be a little softer on myself and then is there a way that you know how to help others like love better or love more love deeper like how how do how do we how do we love i think it's um it's getting you know remember you talked earlier about that that pain point i think it's getting comfortable in that pain point yeah me too i do think that as it sounds so trite to say you know just get uncomfortable but it's the, it's emotional uncomfortable. That's way more challenging and difficult than physical uncomfortableness. And so, yeah, so it's the emotional uncomfortableness. And what that does is it builds capacity so that it's like a swelling of a balloon. And then when the balloon detract,

constricts just a little bit, like it's just, I don't know, it's just not, it's not as difficult. There's not as much strain. And then we can play a don't know. It's just not, it's not as difficult. There's not as much strain. And then we can play a little bit easier. We can trust ourselves essentially. And when we can trust ourselves, we can give of ourselves, I think is the way that I've tried to sort it out, at least. Okay. But you know what I think too? Yes. Trusting yourself. But I also think having a partner who can also get to that risk point. Yeah, with you, support you and go there with you. Or jump in with you, you know? Oh, here we go.

Yeah, all right. Is there a word that cuts to the center of what you understand most? Is it empathy? I think so. And then so can you teach on that for just a little bit like how how could anybody listening develop more empathy and why why would we want to have empathy in a world where leaders are uber aggressive sometimes yeah see i think that uh boy you know if i could do one thing in the, it would be to really create a level of empathy in every human being because I think we'd make different choices.

I think that for those who haven't developed that skill, I think it's taking the time to listen and feel another person's pain or their humility or their excitement, whatever it is. Because I think if we don't get to that point of empathy, I think we're really in trouble. And I think we're absolutely going in the wrong direction. Yeah, I think that one of the reasons we love to watch performance is because there's incredible pressure that we can identify from for many people. But we love connecting to the humanity. And I think that of others, and I think that pressure and stress and a lot of people watching something reveals the humanity of the person. And I think it's wonderful as a deeper experience for the observers of the strong men and women that are going for it, is that we get glimpses of their humanity.

And it helps us feel connected. I totally agree. And one of the things that I talk about now, because to me, I think when we talk about empathy, that, you know, we hear a lot about sensitivity training. And I think to me, we don't need more sensitivity training. I think we need more empathy training and combine that with leadership. And, you know, that Brock Turner case that was at Stanford. No, I don't stanford no i don't oh you don't wait i do is this the um not swimmer the uh yeah it was a swimmer brock turner was a

swimmer he was in his first year uh athletic scholarship and um he basically raped an unconscious woman um and i use that story because the two guys that found them and ran after him, tackled him, they to me are such amazing heroes, and when they literally stopped for the cops and started to tell the story, they both were incredibly traumatized, so you don't think of it like when you think about heroes and description of manhood, youhood, you think they come in and save the day. And what you saw from them was this incredible vulnerability. And to me, that's another phenotype on how we can move forward in empathy. Because these two were so empathetic that they couldn't even control themselves, right?

Yeah, that's cool. And they acted on it. Yes. Yeah. Okay, how about this? Yeah. Pressure comes from? Internally.

It all comes down to? Integrity. The crossroad in my life was... You can't say I had six of them. I was thinking about it. Uh-huh. You know what? I think it was realizing that I had to use my voice to help others. Oh, my God. Okay. So that's a new one. When did that happen? realizing that I had to use my voice to help others.

Oh my God. Okay. So that's a new one. When did that happen? So it wasn't, it wasn't a car door. It wasn't the jail in Zimbabwe. You know what? I think it wasn't like one moment. I think it was when I started to speak out around the country and I saw so many people who weren't getting well. And I saw, so, so if you think about this, if, if I, as a child, if someone had told social services, I would have been pulled out of my home. Right. Um, I don't think that that's the way we should be dealing with abuse. So I go from my home to foster care where my chances of being molested were three times as likely. So I know we haven't gotten into how we fix the system, but it's certainly not

within the current system we have. So what was my question? Oh, the crossroad was? Yeah. So I think it was an evolution of realizing that our system was so broken. And seeing so many broken people, it made me feel lucky. And it made me feel like I could give them a voice because I got out on the other side. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's probably why you published your story in your first book.

Oh, yeah. Trust me. It was not something of great pride within my family. Yeah, it's part of the new crest. We've got some emblem of that. Yeah. Okay. How about my vision?

How do you respond to that thought, my vision? I think my vision comes from my hunger. What does that mean, hunger? You know, it's like, it's a feeling I get in my bones. It's a feeling so deep for change. So it is, I think it's every part of my being. And how do you, how would you suggest or help people get more connected to that hunger that is authentic to them? Sorry, Mike, what I really want to do is like, I wish I could have been a plumber, right? I don't know if I want to get him to go there. Oh, yeah. Okay. Because you know what it is? It's like, I know you can't not be there, right?

So I think – But were you always like this? Even as a happy-go-lucky kid, like did you always have that fire to want to do good and to change? Or were you just trying to fit? You were. You were always like that. Okay. Like when I turned 13 in our family, it's like a big birthday, right?

And my parents said, what do you want for your birthday? And I said, I'd like to go to a Native American reservation. And both parents looked at each other like, she's yours. No, she's yours. I love it. OK. So I was always really focused on the underdog. How do you finish this statement?

I am. I am grateful. Do you do gratitude training? Do you do anything for that? No. No. Do you have any sort of mindfulness practice or prayer practice or any types of habits that are part of your introspective work? I'd like to meditate, but I've been saying that for 30 years.

I think it's part of my personality to just be grateful. Okay. Yeah. Based on probably the work that you've done. Yeah. Would you recommend that people do interior work, whether it's with a psychologist or a therapist? Yes. And I think everyone should do interior work.

I think it's sort of a lifelong process. Yeah, I'm flat out there with you, but I'm biased. Well, look at the work you've done. I mean, think about it. That's right. Let's talk about that work. I'm joking. No, it's all the interior, and it's because I needed it. Right. I needed to understand because I was a mess as a kid, but not a mess, that's too dramatic, but I just couldn't be the person I wanted to be because of my thinking.

I know, see? And look at what you've done. I mean, think about the kind of leadership you're creating now. I mean, seriously. Yeah, I don't know, but it's been fun. Oh yeah, you can't absorb that, okay. Okay, here we go

oh wait wait wait do we have time to talk about the nfl yeah back back to you yeah did you did you see um the the what coach carroll just the response he had to there was a recent game that we just had in the nfl seattle seahawks and the uh the kicker missed the last kind of game opportunity changing uh kick yeah if he if he hits the if the kicker missed the last kind of game opportunity changing kick. If the kick goes in, the Seattle Seahawks win the game. If it doesn't go in, there's a tie. And that's a really rare thing in football to have a tie. And so he misses.

And afterwards, Coach Carroll says, the media asked coach Carroll his response. And they also asked the other coach, Bruce Aarons, the response and the Bruce Aarons for the Arizona Cardinal says, you know, I'm going to paraphrase, but he says, you get paid a lot of money. You got to make those shots. Like this isn't high school. This is your pro. That's what you're paid to do.

And it was very outcome based and coach Carroll, not knowing what the other coach had said, the head coach had said, Coach Carroll says, oh, yeah, yeah, we love our kicker. He's our guy. And he's got us out of a lot of jams. And we're lucky to have him. That was the essence of the sentiment. So one was about the process and the humanity of the person. And the other one was about the outcome.

It's not right and wrong, but it is about clarity and consistency and i'll tell you what most people want to deal with in relationships where you know just feel supported and loved and somehow get the results that you're capable of see that's great now can i okay so I'm going to stir things up a little more. Oh, yeah. Okay, go ahead. So, you know, especially with, you know, Pete Carroll and your work on leadership, what are you doing differently with Frank Clark? Meaning an athlete that is uber talented and young in the NFL? And who has been accused of domestic violence. I knew that was coming with you. Sorry. You know, it was a real intense conversation. Yeah. And there was, there was never, ever, I'll speak for myself. I don't want to speak

on behalf of the organization, but there was never a trade. And let me, let me strike this because I don't want to be confusing. If I were to speak on behalf of the organization, I feel like my experience would match very well the organization, but there was never a trade for talent for like a human being that violates others, violates women. There was never that trade. The conversation is about, do we give people second chances? Do we believe that he has changed? Do we believe he's done the work on the interior to be the man that he wants to be? Is this a place that we can help? Will he fit? will the locker room embrace him and for a man that you know made a made a mistake and is learning from it so those are the

conversations as a not opposed to okay uh let's not talk about this and gosh the guy's something special on the field and let's just turn a blind eye it was never that. I mean, the organization is too connected to humanity and people first, then process, then performance. And so that's our aspirational flow of how we think about what we think about. I thought you'd go there just because I know enough about you and Pete's work. But I think the missed opportunity with Frank Clark is sharing that experience with the general public. And hear me out for a second. So I think people, you're right, people make mistakes. And I think it's in that learning that we can all shift, right? So Ray Rice is a perfect example. I think Ray Rice should. Okay. So, so this is really good because, because, and I can't share the details,

but I will tell you that the truth of the story is very different than what the public understand. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so let's, let's jump over to Ray Rice for a minute. Right. Everyone saw that. Everyone saw that. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, yeah, yeah. Okay. So let's jump over to Ray Rice for a minute. Right. Everyone saw that. Everyone saw that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So with that, you would want to support Ray to talk about it. Yes, and I would want Ray to get a second chance. See, I think that mistake could create a cultural shift because people look at Ray Rice ray rice and say oh oh my god he's horrible

right he's not he's just a human being like everybody else and so there lies the lesson and i think he would be a great so i i think roger goodell commissioner goodell uh misses out on great opportunities to lead in this sector to lead and show how we can shift as a culture. And Ray would be a perfect example. You know, if people are ready to talk about it, then, but they have to be ready because if they're not ready, then the conversation is people will see right through it. You would see right through it.

Absolutely. And so. But from everything I've heard about Ray Rice, and you I'm sure would know more than me on this, is that I've heard he's a really nice guy. I've never met him. I don't know enough about him as a man. But I've heard the same things.

Yeah. And so I think the issues to explore, how do we control our impulses, right? And where do they come from? Like what was our childhood experiences that allowed us to take in that modeling? Right. I love that thought. One of my favorite, favorite brands in the surf world was this brand,

this clothing brand called instinct. And it just like, when you just use the word impulse, it's like, where does that raw stuff come from? And it's like, I think it's fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe, maybe what we can do is we can have a second conversation about that part of the human experience. Like, how do we understand the impulses that we're operating from? Because I bet that's a big part of your work. Huge, huge, huge. Yeah, that's really good. Okay, so if we button this up now, where can we find out more about what you're doing? Huh, good question. I'm kind of, you know, as Sheryl Sandberg says, to lean in.

I've been kind of leaning out, right? Yeah. Just to sort of regroup. I think, you know, I have a facebook site for tapestries of hope um certainly if you want to if people want to know about my work i think you can still get tapestries of hope to watch on amazon prime or you can see both of my movies through specialty studios um and these are all on your website for if people want to go yes yeah yes and michaeline spell your name for us so that we can know that um yes which is why everyone calls me mike right so it's

michaeline m-i-c-h-e-a-l-e-n-e and it's risley r-i-s as in Sam, L-E-Y. Is it.com? So it is Michaelene.com. Michaelene.com. Beautiful. Okay. You know, the courage you have and the ability to articulate the journey that you've been on is inspiring and wonderful. And I love that you and i know each other and we met in at a corporation a gaming corporation that um you know was a lot of fun to work uh with you at that place so so thank you

for being able and when i say work i don't mean like we did interior work we're partners in in the effort so so i just want to thank you and And I hope that if there was maybe one message that people listening could, could decipher from our conversation is like, listen, we all got some stuff. And the idea of facing it, and feeling it are really important to be able to change. And hopefully you get to a place where you have such empathy and love for others that you use your experiences for for good. And not everyone's ready to hear it. Not everyone's ready to do it. But somewhere along that journey, helping others is really important. And you've done a fantastic job even putting yourself in

a Zimbabwe jail. Yeah, to be able to do that. Thank you, Mike. Yeah, please. And let's come back to the conversations about impulses and responses to impulses in another conversation. Perfect. All right. So for everyone listening, you can find out more, uh, at michaelene.com and punch over there. And, uh, you know, I want to thank you, Michaelene, but also thank people that are listening.

Um, you know, you can find us on finding mastery.net. You can also subscribe to this podcast on iTunes and Google Play and all the places that you can find podcasts. And if you write a review, it helps. And so it'd be just a great way to help us out to be able to write a review. And Twitter at Michael Gervais, Instagram at Finding Mastery. And then you can also join us. Michaeline, will you be open to answering some questions on our community page? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So findingmastery.net forward slash community. So you can punch over there. We'll invite you into the Finding Mastery

community. And Michaeline will be there to ask questions and take us a little bit further. And if you're interested in small little conversations, short little insights from people on the path of mastery, you can find us on minutes on mastery at iTunes as well. So check out Michaelene's work, Tapestry of Hope, check out her book, and we're looking forward to the next contribution you're making globally, Michaelene. So thank you for your time. Thank you. Okay. All the best. Bye. Okay, bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers

you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same.

So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only.

If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.