Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Adventure Rock Climber Alex Honnold on Mindset, Progression, Pressure

Episode Date: February 14, 2018

This week’s episode is special. It’s from our first Finding Mastery “Live” recorded at the USC Performance Science Institute.Seattle Seahawks head coach, Pete Carroll, USC Executive Director for Entrepreneurial Studies, David Belasco, and I created the institute to teach, train, and research the science, best practices, and applied processes for a high performing mindset in any domain.That’s our mission.I can't tell you how excited I am for what we're building - it's got all the makings for something very special for the next generation of doers and thinkers.The guest for this first Finding Mastery Live is Alex Honnold, someone I’ve wanted to talk to for a very long time.Alex, in my mind, is one of the most compelling athletes in sport right now.Alex is a professional adventure rock climber whose audacious free-solo ascents of America’s biggest cliffs have made him one of the most recognized and followed climbers in the world.If you're not familiar with free solo climbing, it's literally climbing without using any ropes and harnesses or any protective equipment, relying entirely on the climbers ability, which is just his or her mind, their hands, their feet, and their connection with the mountain.That's it.Alex’s mind is extraordinary. His depth of presence, his curiosity, his confidence, his ability to be calm and to think clearly - they all just jumped out in this conversation.All of those are likely hallmarks of why he's so different than so many other physically talented climbers.Alex recently became the first person to free solo climb El Capitan in Yosemite, the most iconic wall in the world.To Alex, this project was just a little bit bigger, a little bit harder, than he's attempted in the past and in his words, it was attainable.That’s something to consider for when people are pushing the boundaries of human performance and human limits.Although it looks crazy or reckless to many of us, it is just an incremental step in the direction of growth for them.You've likely heard me talking about ways to dissolve pressure and not just perform with it.One way Alex has done that is by having this incredible balance between being mission minded (meaning why and what he's doing in his life) without compromising his ability to lock in and be present with whatever he’s doing.Alex is a world-class talent and I hope this conversation gives you some perspective on why he’s able to do what he does._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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but both my grandfathers had died as well. And so it was just kind of a lot of heavy, you know, family, all sort of at the end of high school. I think the main thing that I take away from that is just a reminder that life is short and you need to do the things that you want to do. You don't have forever. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And by trade and training, I'm a sport performance psychologist spending most of my time

in the trenches of very high stakes and even rugged environments. And for the past 20 years, I've been working out how people push their own limits, how they push their own boundaries, which occasionally can shift the global understanding of what's possible for humans. And the idea behind these conversations in this podcast is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery, who have dedicated their life's efforts to working to understand the nuances of their craft, the nuances of themselves, the nuances of people, if you will.

And what we want to do is to work to search for what they're searching for. We want to understand the mental skills that they've used to build and refine their insights and understandings as well. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort.

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That's linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much.

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And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. This week's episode is special. Not only is it our first Finding Mastery Live, which was recorded at the USC Performance Science Institute at Marshall School of Business. That's cool. And if you're not familiar with that, Pete Carroll, the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks, Dave Belasco, the executive director for entrepreneurial studies at USC, and I created the institute to teach and train and research the science and best practices and applied principles for a high-performing mindset in any domain. And that's our mission, right? To really sort out what are the best practices, what are the key principles, and how do we take our minds, uplift them or optimize them as many ways as we possibly can that will work in a variety

of domains, whatever domain is of most interest to the person. And I can't tell you how excited I am for what we're building. It's got all the makings for something very special for the next generation of doers and thinkers. And it's just been a blast to be part of this. This guest for the Finding Mastery Live is Alex Honnold, someone I've wanted to spend time with for a very long time. Alex, in my mind, is one of the most compelling athletes in sport right now.

And it's not because of what he does, which I'll describe in a minute, which is extraordinary, but it's how he uses his mind and the command that he has of it. And if you're not familiar with Alex, he's a free solo rock climber whose incredible skill have made him one of the most recognized and followed climbers in the world. And if you're not familiar with free solo climbing, it's literally climbing without using any ropes, any harnesses, or any protective equipment, relying entirely on the climber's ability, which is just his or her mind, their hands, their feet, in the most ancient of ways, and their connection with the mountain. That's it. There's no support net. There's nothing. It is complete commitment to the connection between their mind, their body, their craft, and the environment.

And Alex just recently was one of the first and only people to Frisello Yosemite's El Capitan. 3,000 feet or 900 meters of sheer granite. And it's just, if you haven't seen a picture of it, go check it out. It's beautiful. It's amazing. It's striking. And he climbed 3,000 feet without any support mechanisms. Just him, his mind, his body and craft in relationship to one of the most impressive shears in the world. And in relationship with the obvious consequence of death that's associated with his climb, his mind is extraordinary. His depth of presence,

his curiosity, his confidence, his ability to be calm and to think clearly, they all just jumped out of this conversation. And all of those are likely hallmarks of why he's so different than so many other physically talented climbers. And this conversation, I had a sense of how he thought because I've spent so much time working to understand his mind and the mind of people that do these types of things, but never have I spent time with Alex. And it was just a treat to see his mind unfold. And that was one of the joys of this conversation. And to Alex, this project is just a little bit bigger, a little bit harder than he's attempted in the past.

And in his words, it was attainable. And that's something to consider for when people are pushing the boundaries of human performance and human limits, is that what it looks like nuts or crazy or reckless to many of us, it is just an incremental step in the direction of growth for them. So we've missed the small climbs that they've had, the medium size, the hard climbs that they almost didn't make it, but they did. We've missed their progression. And all we see on TV is that we see something that is extraordinary and full of risk in our relative terms. But to them, of course, there's risk. It is the next incremental

step in the direction of their growth or the growth of the sport. And for Alex, LCAP has always been the wall in which he's measured progress. First, the goal was to climb it in one day, then to free climb it in one day, still using ropes. And then finally, the goal was to free solo climb it. And that's kind of ropes. And then finally, the goal was to free solo climb it. And that's kind of the progression that he worked on this particular mountain, this particular hill. And so for context, the average party or person spends three to five days climbing El Capitan. And Alex speed climbed it in just over two hours and 20 minutes. And that held a world record for years. You've likely heard me

talking about ways to dissolve pressure and not just perform with it. And one way Alex has done that is by having this incredible balance between being mission-minded, meaning why and what he's doing in his life, without compromising his ability to think in the present moment, to lock in and be present with whatever he's doing. So it's that mix between being mission-minded and also locking into the present that's phenomenal. Okay, I could go on and on because I'm so fascinated by Alex and what he's done, but I just want to get right into this conversation. Alex is world-leading and has a world-leading mind, and I hope this conversation gives some perspective on why he's

able to do what he does. And with that, let's jump right into this conversation with the extraordinary Alex Honnold. Let's welcome Michael Gervais. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Thanks. I've been wanting to do this for a long time. So, Alex, on the drive down here, one of my friends asked and said, what do you want to explore with Alex? And I said, I know what I don't want to do. I don't want to turn you upside down and try to get the coins out of your pockets and whatever comes out of your, yeah, that's good. I don't want to do that because that's probably what happens in most conversations with you is like, how do you do what you do? Why do you do what you do? Which are important. What I wanted to do is I just wanted to be with you and see how this conversation unfolds. Yeah. I want to be with you today. Yeah. And for me it's a bit like, I think we know the song, we know the orchestra tune, but

being in the presence of something that's beautiful and hard to do and is rare. And when I say what's hard to do is the way your mind works is extraordinary it seems very ordinary to me because it's always done that yeah that's right and what I'm hopeful that we'll do is we'll explore

possibly like the deeper parts of who you are and in doing that maybe we'll get to the dark side you take me on a journey I'm ready I'm excited of who you are. And in doing that, maybe we'll get to the dark side. You take me on a journey. I'm ready. I'm excited. I've never cried in an interview, but this could be the first. I'm like, I'm ready.

Okay. Okay, so if we started with some really basic stuff about how you work, the assumptions are that you understand and have a command of your mind in a way that is extraordinary. And you might be, in my mind, the most significant athlete from a mental standpoint in our modern times, what you're doing and the commitment you have of what you do. So like, if we just started with the most basic question, how have you developed the command of your own mind? I don't know. I mean, so stepping back, I mean, I don't even know if I would say that I've developed, I mean, I guess I do have some command of my own mind because, I mean, certainly over the last 10 years that I've been free-souling, there has been a lot of progress.

And, you know, I used to be a lot more afraid of things and certainly much more afraid of public speaking. You know, I mean, this would have been just a complete horror show 10 years ago. But, I don't know. I mean, there's been a lot of growth. What changed in that 10 years? Like, if we can pause on that. Because public speaking is one of the largest public fears. Everybody's horrified of public speaking.

So what changed? As they should be. It's terrible. What changed? I think practice. Just doing it a lot. I mean, and same with the climbing. Even more so with the climbing because it was more systematic.

You know, I spent more time intentionally going out and climbing lots and lots and lots of routes. Some without a rope, some with a rope, all different combinations, but always trying something a little bit harder, a little bit bigger, a little bit something, just constantly broadening the comfort zone a little bit. Until now, all climbing feels pretty comfortable, except for ice climbing, which I still don't like. It's an over-said phrase, like get comfortable being uncomfortable. How do you go about doing that?

Well, I don't think of it as being uncomfortable. I think of it as having an adventure. I love having an adventure. Like my rest days, I always try to have an adventure. My point being, it's not just the big climbing days, the big climbing objectives that are trying to, like one of my last, I live in Las Vegas, a couple days ago I was out for a mountain biking ride and got a flat tire in the middle of nowhere

and was like not willing to walk my bike back the way I'd come, and just decided to quest down this canyon that was a little bit more direct, and wound up cliffing out, and then I wound up lowering my bike off this cliff with this old hardware store rope and then down climbing, and it was all, I was like, this is an adventure. And then basically hopping a bunch of fences through a subdivision and carrying a bicycle, and I was like, this is an amazing urban adventure. You know, I was like, I'm having a full-on mountain experience, but in the suburbs of Las Vegas.

Like, this is cool. And that's kind of what I mean, you know, a rest day adventure. I mean, it definitely broadened my comfort zone. I was like, oh, I'm hopping weird security fences in some gated community in Vegas carrying a mountain bike. I was like, that's cool. That's different. But I made it back to my car, and I saved myself an hour. So that was cool.

Where did that come from? Well, I don't know. What do you mean? The desire for adventure? Yeah. Where did that first begin to be watered, if you will? I don't know. Maybe being raised in suburbia.

It's just so boring. No, I don't know maybe being raised in suburbia is just so boring no i know i honestly i have no idea i mean just this a desire to to have an experience you know and then so let's let's unwind just a little bit what was it like um growing up and you know i don't want to spend too much time there but you know you know, what was mom like? What was dad like? What was the ecosystem that you were parented by? And it's an easy question for mom, you know, like, how does she feel about what you do? But, like, what was that ecosystem like that has supported you to do what you do? I mean, it was all, it was all pretty normal. I mean, especially being on a nice campus, like, there's all pretty, both my parents are professors teaching language at college, and, you know, it's all very middle class, normal, comfortable, pretty easy.

Going to good public school and just studying and whatever. Until I dropped out of school and stopped. But not that you guys should. But I forgot we're at a learning institution. But no, but it's all pretty straightforward. I mean, it's interesting because I feel like I just as easily could have gone any other path. I could have stayed in school.

I could have been an engineer. My big adventures could have been who knows what. Maybe, you know, I don't know what's adventurous about engineering, but I'm sure there is. You know, there's a way to, so I'm sure most of your interviews are around risk and risk-taking and how you have a good command of that or an understanding of it. And there's a risk to eject out of school. There's a risk to do engineering or not do engineering, right?

So, like, how did you, if we just looked at that one little decision in time. Yeah, but so at the moment, it didn't feel like a decision. I wasn't deciding I'm not going to go to school anymore. It was kind of this interesting moment. Actually, my father died that summer. And so that was part of the pressure for going to school and everything. But I'd also gotten second at Youth National. So I was invited to the Youth World Cup, whatever. And so like an international competition that was during the semester. So it was basically all a good excuse to take the semester off, go climbing, do this thing in Europe. And so it didn't feel like now I'm never going to go to school again. It was more like, oh, I'm going to take the fall semester off to, you know,

go do this climbing competition and just, you know, live. And then I just took the next, you know, 20 semesters off or 22. I'm still planning on going back someday when I'm 60 or 70. But my point is just that, I mean, and people also ask that, when did you decide to be a climber? Or when, you know, when did you decide to drop out of school? And it never really felt like a decision. It was more just sort of this, you know,

in hindsight, it looks like a very clear path where it's like, oh, I just went climbing. But in the moment, it all just felt pretty haphazard. Like, oh, now I'm going to go climb for a bit. Now I'm going to go somewhere else and climb for a bit. And then you look back and you're like, oh, I've spent the last five years doing nothing but climb. You're like, huh. Okay. So that's a very different understanding, I think, of like, I've got goals, I've got, you know, strategies that I'm going to line up for those goals. And then I meet those objectives. Like Like that's a very different way of understanding how you've become great. And so are you more goal-oriented or more fluid where you're

following the next bit of breadcrumbs there? I don't know. I mean, I actually sent my girlfriend some sometimes like strong goals loosely held. You know, like I have very strong, like, oh, I want to do this, this and this. but if I don't wind up trying two of them and I only do one of them, like, that's fine. Like, great year. That was fine. No problem. I mean, I have journals and to-do lists and goals and things like that going back to 2005. I have a climbing journal of everything I've climbed since 2005. And so, you know, I can go back and look through that stuff in any given season. Like, you know, 2009, I'm going to do these routes and they're all listed out

and I do maybe a third of them. I'm like, that's pretty good. It's good enough. I think that's kind of, I do have strong goals, but the thing especially with climbing is a lot of them depend on the weather, a lot of them depend on travel,

like going to exotic places to climb some specific route. And if I wind up not having the opportunity to go to that place or something else comes up, I'm like, that's fine. Another year, something will happen. Are you more principle-based or goal-based?

I don't know. Yeah. So goals, like I want to do these things. Principles are, the way I would understand them, like these are the things that I live by. I don't know. I mean, within climbing, my overarching principle has always been as long as I'm getting better at climbing, then it's all good.

You know, like, even if I don't do the goals on my list, as long as I've improved as a climber or feel like a better climber, then that's more important than doing any of the things on the list. And so, I mean, I guess that's kind of a principle or, you know, like a value. Like learning, improving. Because ultimately the goals don't totally matter. I mean, you can swap in one rock. I mean, you know, like El Cap means a lot to me,

and I do think it's the most important wall in the world. But I mean, it's still a rock. I mean, there are a lot of rocks on Earth. But, yeah. Okay. I don't want to be insensitive with this question. I'm excited. Yeah.

But it's coming. And I didn't want to ask it. Like, I just got nervous to ask it when you talked, when you asked about your, or spoke about your dad. And so, I kind of BS my way through a little bit to get to this question, which is, you know, what is your relationship with death? And maybe you could talk about your relationship with how you move through the grief process or moving through the grief process still with your father. And I don't want to be insensitive, but I do want to understand your relationship with life and death. Yeah, so actually,

so my father died when I was 19. And actually in the few years before, or maybe the year after, but both my grandfathers had died as well. And so it was just kind of a lot of heavy, you know, family, all sort of at the end of high school. And, I mean, I don't know how much that... I think the main thing that I take away from that is just a reminder that life is short and you need to do the things that you want to do.

And I think especially at that time in my life, I mean, you know, I was slightly younger than most of the students here, but it was just, you know, a reminder that you don't have forever. And so, you know, I should do the things that I want to do. I think that's probably the biggest, you know, lesson or whatever I've taken from all that. But the thing, I mean, climbing is just fundamentally a dangerous sport. Like I've had a lot of friends die now in various accidents.

And actually, this last year has been particularly grim. And so, I mean, you're just kind of constantly reminded. And each time something like that happens, you know, you sort of reevaluate, reassess. Am I doing the right thing with my life? Am I doing what I want to be doing? Am I making the right decisions? You know, am I on track?

But, I mean, I think that's important. I think it's good to reassess every once in a while. You've lost two important people, at least two that I know of, in the last couple of years. You mean well-known climbers? Yeah. Yeah, but actually, I mean,

so Uwe Steck was a really famous Swiss alpinist. He died last summer, or last spring on Everest, on Nupce, that same thing. But other than him, like, five or six people in the community have died recently. And then so randomly, the day before I went to Antarctica, we witnessed a fatality in my local sport climbing crag, basically right next to us. And in my 20 years of climbing,

it's the first time I've seen somebody just die at the crag right there. us. In my 20 years of climbing, it's the first time I've seen somebody die at the crag right there. That's pretty heavy. It's a reminder of how fragile the human body is. It's definitely not what I need to see. I'm actually sort of okay with it because I spent 20 years thinking about the risks and visualizing what it would be like to fall to my death if I slipped off something like this. I kind of understand that, but certainly for my girlfriend to just like see somebody

die at the crag, she's only been climbing two years, like she did not need to see that. You know, it was a bit much. Yeah, okay, so, and again, I don't want to be callous, but when somebody dies, I asked a friend about, he's an adventure athlete, the extraordinary what he does, and I said, what's the lifespan for folks in your craft? And he's a base jumper. And he said about five or six years. And, okay, so not to be insensitive, but there's another part to that,

which is when somebody dies, and he didn't say this, but this is a thought I have. When somebody dies in what you do, then it makes it alive. It reminds you of how dangerous it is and how extraordinary what you do. Is that confusing or is that accurate, first of all? I think that's exactly what I meant by recessing, thinking about your life. I think that's definitely accurate. But I think that I personally don't necessarily need people to die all the time to remind me because I think just the nature of what I'm doing, I am constantly reflecting on that. So how do you move through the grief process? It's hard, right, for most people.

And is it hard for you? It's not super hard for me, honestly. I don't know. I mean, I just see it as it's all just part of the natural cycle. I mean, everybody's gonna die in as long as somebody, I think more about whether somebody had a good life. Actually, I mean, if we really wanna get dark, so, here's a really grim story, everybody,

get your hankies out. But so, in October, I guess, this guy Hayden Kennedy, who's one of the most, basically one of the best alpinists in the U.S., young, super promising, super talented, he and his girlfriend, who was also a super talented rock climber, went out backcountry skiing in Montana and got hit by an avalanche. She got buried. He dug himself out, basically scoured the whole avalanche area trying to find her,

never found her, realized that she was dead, basically love of his life. He hiked back out to town and then killed himself that night as like a grieving, you know, who knows what exactly. And super heavy, totally shook the entire West Coast climbing community because they were both super well-loved all over the West Coast, like all these different climbing towns. They were just like big and, you know, really, really shook. And I mean, a lot of people were really upset with him because, you know, I mean, why, I don't know, like why kill yourself over something like that? But, and I mean, it is, you know, and they were both friends, and you're like, oh, that's pretty grim.

But part of me is like, well, I mean, he made a choice, and he led a very clear, intentional life, and he was a very, very principled climber. He'd done a lot of things in climbing that were, he had a very, very strong ethic about his climbing, and he just lived in a very direct, intentional way,

and I'm sort of like, well, he chose to end his life in the exact same, you know, with the same kind of clear vision. And I'm like, well, I mean, like, I wouldn't, I disagree, and I wouldn't do that, but I'm like, a lot of respect to Hayden. I mean, he, you know, he played the way he wanted to all the way to the end. I'm like, you know, at least he didn't have regrets when he was old, you know? I don't know. So your acceptance of other people's path and their choices is pretty high right and you find that they've made some choices whatever and then do you have that same level of

acceptance in your inner experience your inner dialogue or monologue are you self-critical or of yourself and accepting of others or are you accepting of yourself as well maybe a little bit of both I mean I'm definitely a little bit more self-critical. You know, it's like, oh, why do you eat those cookies? What's wrong with you? You know, or like, you know, if you really cared about climbing, you'd be watching your diet a little bit more. You know, things like that or whatever, you know, like if you really cared, you'd be training a little bit harder or like, oh, you probably should have done your work instead of, you know, just mindlessly surfing Instagram on your phone,

like zonked out, trying to fall asleep, or whatever else. You know, I mean, yeah, definitely a little bit self-critical. But at the same time, like I said, strong goals loosely held, I mean, not that self-critical. I mean, if I fail on things, I'm like, that's fine, as long as I try, and as long as I'm sort of moving forward. So spending some time in the adventure world

and the action, you know, high stakes environments, there's a phrase that happens when I'll talk about some projects that I've been part of and people will respond, they'll lean back and they'll say, why would they do that? Speaking of you or somebody, like why? I don't understand it. And then there's this unique phrase that pops

out right behind it which is well they can't have kids and then something like and they can't really love their mom so so I don't get the sense of that for you but like how would you respond to that I don't know I mean you know I don't have I don't have kids or family or anything like that so I mean I can't can't speak to that but um but I mean I think that I'm making very clear intentional choices and I would think that I will continue to make well-informed decisions you know regardless of my family situation I don't know I mean a lot of my friends other professional climbers that I've done a lot of the big enchainments and things with do have kids, do have, you know, young kids. And, and it's not as if anything has changed for them.

I mean, we still, I mean, the goal is always to survive. It's like, I mean, we want to live. So it's not like, you know, it's not like that's going to change. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard.

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clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Your mom and dad did something right to groom and raise you to become one of the frontiers of human potential, to really get into such a skillful place that others aren't able or willing to go. And you have a legendary experience or relationship with your mom

that you take her on a sense that you are going to do or have done. Do I have that close to me? A little bit, yeah. She started climbing many years ago now, I guess. And we've climbed a couple of cool routes a year. And what would be the one thought that mom installed or helped to shape for you from a young age

that you still carry forward? I mean, I think my parents definitely instilled a drive for excellence or to do your best or to always... And how did she do that? Like a nice saying, like, good enough isn't. You know, like, that's a nice... That was a... Good enough isn't. Yeah, good enough isn't. You know, like, that's a nice... That was a... Good enough isn't.

Yeah, good enough isn't. That's what you should tell your kids. No, but just a general drive to do your best, try your hardest, you know, to work. I don't know. Which is interesting, because I've never actually worked that much. But I do try very hard as a climber.

Okay, so you say you didn't work very much. In a conventional sense of having a job. No, I do actually work quite hard as a climber. Okay, so you say you didn't work very much. In a conventional sense of having a job. No, I do actually work quite hard as a climber. Yeah, because there was an insight that you spent a year doing imagery or visualization of El Cap. Is that? No, probably more, really. I mean, so I first started thinking about freestyling El Cap in 2009, I guess.

Basically, the year after I sold at Half Dome, I started thinking like, all right, El Cap is next, because that's the obvious thing. It's, you know, it's the next bigger, harder objective. And so in 2009, I was like, all right, it's happening. And then I showed up in the Valley and looked at it and was like, oh my God, it's not happening. But, and then each year thereafter, I'd look at it and be like, oh no, not this year. But I was definitely thinking about it sort of in the back of my mind all the time for years and years. And then it wasn't until sort of the year and a half before I actually did it that I started being more conscientious about it.

And were you structured in seeing those images? No, I mean, mostly I sort of tried to give myself enough empty time that my mind would just naturally gravitate towards it. For the full month before I actually sold it all cap, I erased all the social media off my phone, so I couldn't just mindlessly waste time. I'd stopped responding to emails for so long that I stopped getting any emails,

which was actually pretty amazing. And so basically I just had no demands on my time. And then my girlfriend left for periods of time, and so I was just by myself in my van, which sort of reminded me of the good old days, you know, reminded me of 2006, 2007, when I was like desperately single and just like, all I can do is climb all the time. And so suddenly I had all this free time, which you just wind up sitting there with nothing to do, being like, huh. And then my mind would just naturally go to the things that I needed to think about on El Cap.

Okay. So in our... I find it really hard to intentionally, you know, like now I'm going to sit down and visualize for an hour. You know, what I need is just five hours in an afternoon with no plan where I can just like lose an hour or two sitting there being like, hmm, and then the left hand and then the right hand.

No, and then, no, the right hand first and then the left hand and then, you know, like just have some time to think about it. Would you spend an hour or two in that five-hour period or is it like blocks of 10 minutes, blocks of two minutes? Is it loosely? Yeah, maybe lots of blocks of 10 or 20 minutes, things like that. Yeah, okay. So that's a really unconventional way

that most people in the field of performance or sports psychology would consider. They would say, okay, athlete is busy, so let's structure six, eight, 10, 20 minutes of your time to see you do something extraordinary and also see some really tough spots that you want to get out of. So that's a completely different model that you just shared.

I don't know. It's cool. I mean, well, it just comes from being a homeless person living in a van. Did somebody train you in imagery I don't know. It's cool. It just comes from being a homeless person living in a van. Did somebody train you in imagery or you just figured it out on your own? It's only in the last few years that I've even learned all the terms like imagery and visualization and stuff.

I always thought it was daydreaming or fantasizing. A big component of it is just imagining how awesome it would be to be on top or how terrible it would be to fall off and die. And then the full spectrum in between. What if I got scared at that one spot? What if I thought my foot was going to slip? Should I just trust the foot anyway or should I reverse the move and then place it again? All the things that you go through in your mind, trying to do those ahead of time so

that when I'm actually up there, I don't have some new thought that I'm like, oh, I never considered that. Oh no. Okay. So what percentage of the time, if you had to kind of throw a hand grenade to get this right, what percentage of the time are you seeing yourself be exceptional and being in flow, if you will, or figuring it out? And what percentage are you thinking about all the things that could go wrong and what ifs? It's probably more than 50% positive, but probably less than 70. You know, something like that. Like in the 50, maybe 60, 40, 70, 30 positive.

Yeah, and so a lot of people... That's a total hand grenade. I have no idea. I'd have to think about it more, but... A lot of people say, all I can see is negative images, or they're afraid of seeing negative image because they think that there's going to be some weird programming that's going to take place and that is that is um I do think I am conscious of that because you don't want to dwell on what if the foot slips what if the foot slips if the foot slips I die if the foot you know like actually so on El Cap specifically um at the bottom of the root is like a low angle slabs and there was basically one of the things

that was the psychologically most difficult section of maybe the whole route for me all revolved around this one right foot where I basically just, there were no handholds at all. It's just like a blank. It's like imagine walking across like sort of a mirror at like this angle. So it's not vertical.

And so all your weight's on your feet, but your foot is on, I don't even know, you know, something the width of a pencil maybe. Which, you know, I mean, is an okay size, but it's not that big. And basically you just have to snake your foot over to it and then rock your weight onto it. And so, I mean, your whole life basically depends on your foot staying on this little edge that's like the size of a pencil.

And there's nothing to hold. And so it's not technically that hard. Like the rating in climbing difficulty isn't cutting edge or anything, but it is very scary to just be like, oh, now my whole life depends on my foot staying on that thing. And that's the type of movement

that it would be easy to dwell on and be like, if the foot blows, I die. I don't want to do that. But I'd rehearsed it a ton, and every time, I'd done the section no hands, I'd done it various ways, I'd done it,

you know, I'd actually done it in done it in this pair of shoes basically, in this same type of sneaker. And so I was like, well, I can do that. And then I just did. Okay, I think I've got a little treat. No, sorry, that's a non-sequitur. I've got a little treat that I think is cool. Is that I had a conversation yesterday with Felix Baumgartner about you. And so Felix Baumgartner,

he jumped out of a capsule at 130,000. Out of a spaceship. Out of a spaceship. That's cool. And the first person to break the speed of sound, you know, without a capsule. That's,, kids. Don't do that. And so I said to Felix, I said, if you had one question for Alex, what would it be? And I want to pass that on to you. And so what he said is, what happens at the moment in time when you've run out of skills? You're in a challenging situation, you've run out of skills. What do you do? I don't know, you pee yourself. I mean, I don't know. I mean, what, I don't know.

I mean, you improvise or you just deal. You just rise to the occasion. I do often think about rising to the occasion because I mean, a lot of climbing is that sort of adventuring, particularly in the big mountains on trips like going to Antarctica or places like that where you're suddenly doing something that you've never technically done before. You don't exactly know that you can do it.

But you just sort of have confidence that you're like, I am a good climber and I will figure this out, you know. So that's part of your model. Like, I've got skill and I'll figure this out, even when a mistake means that you'll die or be paralyzed. Oh, I mean, ideally. I mean, sometimes you get into the situation, you're like, I don't want to do this, I'm going home, and you down climb very carefully and then back off.

What percentage of time? So you've heard of YOLO? You only live once? Yeah, yeah. Dude, YOLO free solo. YOLO free solo? Yeah, YOLO free solo. You've heard of FOMO, fear of missing out?

Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, so I think we've got a new one that I've been playing with. Oh yeah? Ready? FOPO, fear of other people's opinions. And so what happens for people when they're on the edge, whatever that is for them, lights are on, public speaking, whatever it might be,

that there's a real fear of what other people might be thinking of me, and that impacts sometimes in negative ways and sometimes in positive ways, my thoughts and decisions. No, I definitely think about that. And I mean, that's part of the reason that soloing has always been so private

because you don't want to be influenced by that kind of stuff. Right. And whether that means, like you don't want any pressure to go up and solo something, you also don't want to feel weird about yourself if you decide to bail.

You just don't want, you don't want to, you know, yeah, you don't want any pressure at all. You just want to follow your heart, you know, as cheesy as that sounds, but follow your own motivations follow your what heart yeah but like follow you follow your own drive and not let anything else affect you because it's a real deal within like an adventure that's funded now you've got managers and money and sponsors and other people and a camera crew And so when you're in that situation, how do you manage your true north and stay pure

as opposed to the pressures that are outside of you? Yeah, I mean, that's always tough. I mean, I think that for me, it's not that hard to just not care, you know, be like, screw it. Like the camera crew, they do whatever they need to do. The sponsors, like they... And I've been lucky that I have very long-term good relationships with all my sponsors. And so, um, it's not like one-off projects where like, if I don't do this climb,

I'm going to get fired. It's more like they sponsor me as an athlete to just go out and do my thing. And, you know, they don't really care if I get to the top or not. Or, um, so, you know, I don't feel that much direct pressure most of the time. But at a certain point, you're just like, you know what, it's my life. Screw everybody else. They can just deal. Yeah, there you go.

But for a project like Felix Baumgartner jumping out of space, that's crazy because he's freaking flying up there in a spaceship. When you're talking about pressure, that's some pressure. That's not something where you can fly up and be in your suit and be all ready to jump out of space and then be like, no, no, no, let's go back down and chill. How is that different than yours?

The thing with soloing is that you walk into the base, all cap, takes 10 minutes from the road basically. You stroll over, you look at the wall and if I decided not to do it, I would stroll back to my van and go back to bed. There would have been a camera crew on the wall being like, is he coming? Is anything happening? They were all friends of mine.

They'd understand. They didn't necessarily want me to do it because I think they were all sort of personally horrified as well. Yeah. And so, I don't know, I mean. There's a window after. Actually, let me just add. So I was talking about that move

at the bottom of El Cap with the right foot. So in the fall, six months before I sold it, I'd actually gone up to that move. So I'd sold the first 500 feet and basically got to that move, decided I didn't want to do it, didn't trust my foot. I'd had an ankle injury and my foot was kind of swollen. I couldn't feel my toes. It was dark. I was wearing a headlamp because in the fall, it's just the way the sun and shade, it's just the way it had to be, which was unfortunate. But so basically I was like, I don't want to be here. This is scary. I'm not into this. And then I grabbed the bolt, which is what you would normally

clip your rope into. And then I started cheating by pulling on the bolts. So I was still up there by myself without a rope, but I was sort of pulling on the equipment a little bit, which is officially cheating. But it makes it quite a bit easier and more secure. And so I sort of cheated my way through that section and then just like went up a bit higher and then came down some ropes that were fixed on a different part of the wall. And so I did sort of climb, you know, the first 500 feet and then decide that I wasn't into it and come down. But, you know, I mean, sometimes you got to make the right call. You got to know how to say no. Yeah. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't

just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night, and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine.

Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is Finding Mastery for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab.

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I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Okay. So I'd like to do this with you really quickly is, can you talk about this word, confidence? Confidence? I mean, let's talk about confidence, guys. Does that count? That counts. Yeah, okay. How about control? Precision, tightness. Are we just doing word association or are we doing in depth? That's cool too.

Yeah, that's good too. Okay. Yeah. What did you say? To control, what did you say? I said precision and tightness because I think about being in control and climbing, it means your movements are in control. You can place your feet very precisely.

You can, you know, you're under control of your body. And how do you take control of your mind? Well, sometimes deep breaths. control of your body. And how do you take control of your mind? Well, sometimes deep breaths. I mean, if your mind is actually racing, like something happens and I get very afraid, then I try to compose myself, take some deep breaths, and just bring it back together, and then carry on.

How often do you train breathing work that way? Never, it just happens sometimes. Just happens? Yeah. Calm. Calm. I don't know. Just relax, you know, tranquilo. I don't know. This is the hard word. Your personal philosophy. YOLO free solo. YOLO free solo. Personal philosophy. I don't know. You know, try your best and try to improve. Try my best and try to improve.

Brilliant. How about this word, optimism? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's interesting because I'm very optimistic in some ways. I mean, and like you just said, with visualizing, I definitely visualize positive more than negative, probably. But so far, I've only had positive results, and so maybe that's not optimism. Maybe that's just realism. I don't know.

I mean, optimism... Yeah, I don't know. It's just, I mean, you just think about the world, and I don't know if that's being optimistic or pessimistic or not. You're just seeing how it all plays out. How about trust? I'm really bad at this game.

We shouldn't do this game. I don't know, what do you think about with trust? Yeah, again. Oh, you like that. I mean, maybe honesty, just being straight up. I mean, I'm very trusting and I'm also trustworthy. Everything is pretty straight up. Brilliant.

Well, we'll put these down now. I just failed. I failed the class. I'm so bummed. Okay, so I want to wrap up and I want to get to some questions from the audience. And I want to make sure that I ask one significant question and then a few follow-ons.

One is how do you think about articulate the concept of mastery? Whoa. How do I articulate the concept of mastery? I mean being good at what you do, having a depth of comfort in what you do that you're comfortable with any sort of set of circumstances. I mean, I think about that with climbing, just broadening the comfort zone, going on adventures, like I was saying, rest day adventures, just little things that always are just a little bit different,

a little bit hard in some different way, so that then anytime something happens, you're like, oh yeah, that, I can deal with that. I mean, that to me is a sense of mastery. Brilliant, okay, so scale it one to ten, and then we're going to do some audience questions. So just like on a scale of one to ten, your ability to switch on, to be up, to be on.

To turn on? Yeah. Like game face? Yeah. Seven. It's hard to say because not that good at, you know, like if I had to suddenly start singing, it would be a zero and I would flee through the curtain.

But for climbing, maybe an eight or nine. Switch off. Your ability to switch off, one to ten. To just totally chill? Yeah. Oh, like a strong eight at least. Your ability to manage your inner dialogue, one to ten. Probably a solid eight or something also maybe.

Your focus when it's dangerous. Your. You focus when it's dangerous? Your ability to focus when it's dangerous? Also pretty high. I feel douchey giving myself straight eights or nines, but is that all right? Like, okay. How about your ability to focus when it's boring? Still pretty high, I think. If I have to focus on something, I just will.

I almost did a thousand piece puzzle straight through the night the other night at my house, which is like, I gave up at 4.30 because I couldn't see the pieces anymore. But I mean that's kind of the essence of focusing on boring. It sounds like this is stupid, this is a waste of my time, I'm supposed to be climbing tomorrow,

but I just wanted to finish this stupid puzzle. External rewards, driven by external rewards, one to ten. Money, fame, cars, watches, whatever. Five. Five. You know, like a solid, I mean, I definitely am motivated by, you know, I want to make a living, you know. But it seems fine to me. It seems very healthy.

Internal rewards, motivated by internal rewards. Yeah, maybe a little more. I don't know. I hate to put it. It seems douchey to just give yourself big numbers. No, I thought... I'm going to give myself a 7. Are you going to give yourself a 10 on anything? No. You would not give yourself a 10? No. If 10 is the

edge of the scale, I'm definitely not at the edge of the scale on anything. On anything? No. Nothing? No. If you give 10 perfect, I'm not going to grade myself perfect in any discipline of anything ever. Okay. One to 10 fear of success? Do I? Like two? I don't know. I love being successful. I'm like, is that bad? No. There's something that happens though for folks is that as soon as they're well-recognized for the thing that they once loved out of purity,

that it can change the game and it can change their relationship. And you'll hear people in the pros all the time talk about now it's a job. And so they're kind of afraid of what the next level of success could be. But climbing is such a big, big sport that you can just take it in all different directions.

I mean, going somewhere like Antarctica is completely different than going up on El Cap. And so for me, I'm sort of lucky that unlike other sports, I can just branch in different directions and try something that's challenging me, try something that's fresh. Yeah. I mean, I don't think I need to worry about that as much as, say, somebody in basketball or something. Yeah. You guys, you're going to ask Kobe when he's here.

That's so exciting. You guys are going to see Kobe. Okay. Last one before we go to the audience street smart or analytical analytical maybe I don't really know I'll give them both a three

that's why I dropped out of school thank you for the honesty the the vulnerability, the allowing of this conversation to take place and significant contribution to the potential of what is possible for humans. And so I love being that we shared this conversation and that you're around while all of us are still living.

So thank you. Thank you, Ron. Nice chat, yeah. Let's grab some questions. Okay, let's grab some questions. Grab up to the microphone, and let's hear what the brilliant next generation of thinkers and doers have to say. Okay, so I'm a new climber and I know that there are a lot of people on the climbing team here tonight.

Where are you guys at? Anyone? All right. Do you have any tips for new climbers, like technical or mental, about like just how to get over the original kind of inability to do things and just get to that place where you're more comfortable with like being on the wall? I mean, typically for new climbers, I say all new climbers should focus on technique, focus on the technical aspect of climbing, focus on moving more, like just more climbing,

you know, just practice. I mean, when I was, when I was young, I would spend hours traversing in the gym, just going back and forth on the wall. And on any given day, I'd be like, today, I'm going to learn how to do heel hooks. And I would just use only my heels and perch on the holes and just, you know, practice. I think that climbing, because climbing is always about getting to the top, a lot of people try to try to get to the top too much and people don't practice movement necessarily. But certainly as a beginner, I think you have the most to gain by focusing on the fundamentals

and placing, like placing, think about quiet feet. Don't clump your feet against the wall. Place your feet carefully on a hole and then transition your way. It's all very beautiful. I've got a brief anecdote and then a question. So I moved to LA to pursue mostly creative endeavors and then found myself working in a climbing gym. And then we kind of talked about this already a bit about like when climbing

becomes a job I went from just working the gym then coaching talking about trying to get some guiding stuff going on and then all of a sudden my relationship with climbing changed quite a bit all of a sudden it wasn't just this thing I would go outside to do for personal pleasure it was like the stakes are a little higher um so my question for you is I mean we talked a little bit about how money and fame sort of might affect your relationship with this sport um that seems very personal and individual for you but yeah I mean maybe more like social media money has it at all adulterated your relationship with the sport?

Yeah, so I think that, so for me as a professional climber, I think I'm a little bit lucky. I mean, as a coach or working in a gym or being a guide, you're actually climbing for an hourly wage in a way. For me as a professional, you know, I make my living from coming and doing events or making appearances or doing things that aren't strictly climbing most of the time. Occasionally I film and occasionally I actually climb for a camera or do things like that. But for the most part, my work is actually very separate from my climbing and my climbing is still very personal. So I think it's actually maybe easier for me to keep it as a personal thing than it is for other people that work in the industry maybe. But I've actually never really had a hard time. I think for me, the bigger challenge is knowing that if I go into some

random climbing gym, everyone's going to be staring at me and I'm going to suck, you know, because I'm not that good at climbing in the gym. And you have all these little kids just staring at you and you're just falling off easy things and then they come over to have you sign their chalk bag and you're just like, that's a little embarrassing. But, I mean, you just get over it, you know. I just deal.

Is there like anyone doing anything in like climbing or any routes or like any style of climbing that you just look up and you're just like, no way that guy's like on another level? Because that's what I guess we say when we're looking at you. I don't know. I look at like Alex Magos, Adam Ondra. I mean, there are a couple of very high end sport climbers, some of the strongest physical people in the world. I mean, a lot of people look at the stuff that I'm doing,

they're like, oh, that's crazy, because they can't imagine the mental side of the climbing. But for me, the mental side has always kind of come naturally, but the physical side is a lot harder. So I look at people who are physically gifted, and I'm like, that's so crazy, how can they do that? You know, I wish I was strong like them. It's just, you know, like the grass is always greener on the other side type thing.

But, I mean, Alex Megas, like, I don't know if you've ever, if anyone ever sees him climb in person, it is outrageous. It's just, it's just, it makes you feel sick. It's, yeah. Yeah, first of all, thank you for coming. It was really inspirational. I kind of have a two-pronged question. First of all, how can climbers get involved with environmental,

keeping their environment where they climb kind of better, safer, more untouched? And the second question is, how do you think Olympic climbing is going to affect the community? I'll start with the Olympics just because I'm pretty excited about it. For those that don't know, climbing will be in the Olympics in 2020. I will have nothing to do with that because I'm too old and too weak, but I will definitely watch it and it will be amazing. But I think it's cool. I think it's good for the sport.

But in terms of protecting the environment or just... I actually don't really think of it protecting the environment around climbing areas. I just think that everybody as an individual should be thinking about what they can do to minimize their environmental harm and, you know, think about lifestyle, think about diet, you know, whatever it takes to do less harm in the world.

As climbers, they're the obvious, like oh, don't litter at the crag, clean things up, don't cut trails and destroy vegetation, but you should be doing that kind of stuff in normal life, too. Climbers shouldn't be thinking about that. Everybody should be thinking about that stuff. So I first found out about you

from the Oprah documentary called Belief I think you're the only one that learned about me through Oprah sorry and I was wondering if you could talk about secular humanism and your perspective on death through the lens that this is our only shot at consciousness from our perspective and how different world views play into different views on free climbing?

I'll take my best stab at it. I don't know. So in the Oprah piece, the Oprah, it was a mini series about spirituality and belief and humanity. And I was the one token atheist, I think, because I'm pretty sure Oprah's religious and it was all about human spirituality. And then I was the one guy that's like, and look at'm pretty sure Oprah's religious and it was all about human spirituality and then I was the one guy that was like, and look at this homeless guy that doesn't believe in God.

He's crazy. But I do think that, I mean, the reason they had me on that program was because I did sort of touch on a lot of the same spiritual themes with making the best of your life, living your best life, and I think that I've just approached it

through secular humanism, whatever you want to call it. But I think of us all as animals. You know, we're all just biological creatures that are living a life and then eventually it will end and that will be the end of us. And so that just gives us a finite amount of time to do our best, you know, to make our mark in the world and to do whatever we can do. I don't know, it's not particularly spiritual, but I feel like it's very factual. But, I don't know, it's not particularly spiritual, but I feel like it's very factual. But, I don't know, yeah, moving on. Hi.

So, I feel like a huge part of the interviews you've done, from like the brain scans to the question asks, are trying to analyze some aspect of your personality that's allowed you to be so successful. So, I guess my question is, do you personally see yourself as different? No, I mean, I think I'm totally, I'm just a normal dude. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think so. But, I mean, I can rationally recognize that, yeah, maybe there is some kind of difference because I've certainly taken a different path than most. I mean, everybody here is still in school for the most part, or they already graduated.

So, I mean, that's, you know, and I was like, oh, I can't do that. And so, yeah, I mean,'s you know and I was like oh I'm I can't do that and so um yeah I mean there is there is some difference but uh I mean I'm just I'm just a normal normal guy I mean the thing with climbing is that I was never gifted and I mean what I was just talking about the other question with physical gifts and climbing I've never climbing has never come super easily to me I'm not I'm not that strong and the mental side of it you don't really know what's going on inside anybody else's head so I just assume that everybody else is the same as me and I'm not that strong. And the mental side of it, you don't really know what's going on inside anybody else's head. So I just assume that everybody else is the same as me. And I'm like, I wonder why they don't do that stuff. Everybody could if they wanted to. They just don't want to.

I don't know. So obviously climbing is like your true passion. Is there any other hobby you have or anything else in life that rivals that level of passion you have for climbing? No, nothing that even remotely rivals my passion for climbing. I like going skiing. I like going mountain biking. I like, you know, maybe hiking in the mountains and things. But nothing is even remotely close to climbing. I like puzzling, apparently, but I don't really think so. I had two questions. My first question was, throughout your free solo climbing career

was there a time that you made a big mistake where you almost thought you died or something or that you were going to die midway through? I've had a bunch of times where things have happened where I'm free soloing and I'm grabbing a rock and the rock pulls off or something like that but those aren't in a way that so that is

quite scary so something happens a rock falls off I like maybe open up away from the wall and you're like whoa and hold back on and then but the thing is that I haven't actually fallen off and so by the time you grab back on the whole situation has already resolved itself and then you're just left being like whoa like didn't see that coming. And so, you know, things like that have happened maybe a half dozen times, various, you know, or having a crazy animal come out or something unexpected. Yeah, I mean, definitely that happens, but. Do you usually just wear rock climbing shoes, like, daily? Well, these aren't, these aren't, these aren't technically climbing shoes. These are pro shoes,

but I pretty much wear pro shoes all the time, yeah. But it does mean that you can climb really well in pro shoes, so at any given time, you're just like, oh, you got to climb something, no problem. Great, thank you. I mean, you know, it's tools of the trade. Yes. Hey, so obviously you can't climb forever.

I was wondering what you have in mind for after you kind of put it all away. So climbing actually has greater longevity than most sports because it's pretty easy on your body. So there are a lot of still professional climbers, adventurers that are in their mid-50s, late-50s that are still going out all the time. And there are a lot of people going climbing all the time

into their mid-70s or, you know, well, or even older, really. But so I'm sure I'll be climbing regularly my entire life. At some point, I'll stop being a professional climber, I'm sure, but that'll just be a natural transition out, I hope, or terrible accident. I mean, I guess what I'm trying to say is, like, do you have anything else you'd like to pursue after or other than climbing?

Well, so I have a foundation, the Honol Foundation, that I've been working on, environmental projects, and so I can sort of see myself naturally transitioning more into work with the foundation and less high-performance rock climbing. But we'll just see. We'll see what I'm excited about.

Thanks. Yeah, of course. Okay. Thank you. thanks yeah of course thanks so much everyone for following along you can also find what we're doing on finding mastery.net and i want to give a thanks out to athletic greens for being a partnership that is helping support and fund this project that we're doing here called Finding Mastery. And it's just been great to be able to have them on board. If you haven't checked them out, head over to athleticgreens.com forward slash Finding Mastery. And then also check us out on Instagram, Finding Mastery. Check us out on Twitter

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