Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Alyssa Roenigk: Writing About and Living Adventure

Episode Date: June 8, 2016

Alyssa lives fully – thinks deeply – and captures the point of view and insights from people who have chosen adventure as a way of living. She’s trusted by elite action and adventure sport athletes In This Episode: - What defines action sports athletes - Growing up wanting to be Terry Bradshaw - Moving from form to formless - Pitching the “Madden Curse” - How she finds threads to write about - How do people do things that don’t seem possible - The challenges of writing - How she works through the creative process - Dealing with doubt in writing - Practicing the things you aren’t good at / working on your weaknesses - Cost of greatness - Why movement defines her - Writing controversial stories_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. So in this conversation, that's kind of the central hub of what we'll be talking about. Now, we're fortunate enough to sit down with Alyssa Roenick. And Alyssa and I've known each other for a long time. And I'm excited to share her insights and this conversation with you. So Alyssa lives and she lives fully. She thinks deeply. She captures a point of view and insights from people who have chosen an adventure way of living, which is really cool to think about. She's trusted by absolutely flat out the elite in action and adventure sport athletes. And when I say the word elite here, we're not talking about an elitism. We're talking about those that are on the tip of the arrow that are creating insights

and experiences of doing that others in their field, the best of the best in their field are saying, my goodness, I'm not sure how he or she actually does what he or she does. So it's an incredible opportunity to learn from Alyssa in this conversation. And as we know, we're both fascinated by those who excel in risk scenarios. And it seems like our conversations seem to lead straight to what separates those who see the world differently and then act on those ideas, independent of the real and or perceived consequences? So Alyssa is a senior writer at ESPN, and she's part of the on-air team as well for the X Games and the host of the studio show X Center. During the 2011 summer game, she was also part of that on-air talent as well. So she not only is able to capture through writing the insights from those who excel in risk scenarios, but she's also able to convey

it, which is an incredible skill in of itself. So she's covered a handful of Olympics. She's been around and in the trenches for those that pursue extreme and hostile environments. And so when we sit down and have this conversation, I think one of the ways to think about this is if you're interested in practices to help you excel in risk environments or risk filled environments, um, and what people actually do and how they cultivate sharing a vision and working through that vision, even when the consequences are great, you'll find this podcast to be, I think, speaking right to you. So anyways, I hope you love this. Let's jump right into this conversation with Alyssa Roenick. Alyssa, how are you? I'm good. Okay. So this has been a long time

coming. We've known each other. When did we first meet? That's a good question. I think it was, you know, I should have looked up when I started working on this story, but I think it was when I was working on a story on the magical bracelets that everyone was wearing, the power balance bracelets. And I was really fascinated by how some of the best athletes in the world believed that this little piece of plastic was making them better. And so I wanted to talk to you about that. That's right. That, that must've been almost, it feels like 10 years ago, but it wasn't that long. It was probably like eight years ago, somewhere in that range. Yeah. And then, so for folks like me, we'll pull back the curtain a little bit. That conversation felt really easy. And then I remember after that conversation saying like, you know, how do you know so much about this world? And you say, well, this is what I do full time. Like I check out stories and follow them as far as I can go.

And you were really fascinated with the inner experience for athletes. Yeah. And then the second part of the conversation was that you spent a lot of time with action sport athletes. Yeah. Primarily, especially the last 10 years. How did you get connected to that world or why, why that world was important to you? People that, and maybe, maybe just take a quick pass at what I think a lot of people think of the word extreme athletes and think of something and don't know really maybe what to think a lot of people think of the word extreme athletes and think of something and don't know really maybe what to think about action and adventure sport athletes. And so maybe you can

take a quick pass, pass at like who that group is and then why you're interested in them. So start with who that group is. You know, to me, you know, this, the word extreme, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I do that. You can do anything you want. Yeah. Um, yeah. So who that group is, you know, to me, the easy answer is that action sports athletes are the X game sports athletes are sort of a shortcut. Um, their action adventure athletes are to me, anyone who's not doing sort of the big four sports who are doing alternative sports and who, but who they are as people, what I started to find, um, is that there are folks who they're creative, they are limit pushing.

They didn't want to get into, some of them do did grow up playing traditional sports as well, but they tended to be drawn to sports that didn't have structure and rules and coaching. And, and, you know, they, they, there were things they liked about team sports, but then they also noticed that they were drawn to, you know, there were things they liked about team sports, but then they also noticed that they were drawn to, you know, a sport like snowboarding because they could go out of bounds and be creative and sort of paint pictures on the mountain, if you will. And so how I, you know, I fell into action sports, but I really do believe that you attract to yourself the things that are sort of meant to be in your life. And I believe, you know, I grew up in a really traditional sports world. And when I started covering action sports, the X Games was about, the X Games started in 95.

So it had been around for seven years. I'd never heard of the X Games. It's hard to know what you didn't know 13, 14 years ago. But I'm pretty sure I knew who Tony Hawk was. I don't know if I'd ever heard of anyone outside of him. It was not a world I grew up in. I started working at ESPN. I came there to be a football writer. And that's what I was doing. I was working as a copy editor at ESPN magazine. Okay. So let's start there. Let's go way back. Yeah. It's because you're not built like a football player. But you're interested in football. Yeah. Passionately interested. You grew up in the South. Well, Pittsburgh.

Oh, you grew up in Pittsburgh. I'm from Pittsburgh. And then we moved my family, my parents, who also grew up in Pittsburgh. And my extended family is all from there. My aunt had moved to Florida. It's really warm down there. My parents saw the opportunity for my sister and me. And so when I was about 10 or 11, we moved there. Okay. So you identify with Pittsburgh.

Oh, I was wrapped in a terrible towel and handed to my mother. Oh, the whole family. That's how you roll in Pittsburgh. Okay. Yeah. All right. So, so you, um, the, the family structure was invested in football. Oh yes. Okay. So your family, okay. And then, so you took that like you organically. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I, I, you know, the first sort of job I remember wanting to have as a kid was I

wanted to be Terry Bradshaw. I wanted to be the quarterback of the Pittsburgh Steelers. What happened? Exactly. And I, and I, you know, I always, I credit my mother, but you know, I should credit my father as well. They never told me that I couldn't, you know, I mean, if you see photos of me as a kid, I am in black and gold sweatpants. The photo of me taking my first steps at 10 months old, I'm wearing a Steelers, you know, sweatsuit. I would get out of the shower and we, you know, my mom would always throw me the towel when I was a kid. Uh, you know, like she was mean Joe green in the Coke

commercial. Hey kid. And I turn around and she'd throw me the towel. You know, it wasn't until you get older and you start realizing people start telling you, you're a girl, you can't play football. But, you know, I spent a long time thinking I was going to be a Pittsburgh Steeler. What was that like? Was there a death to that thought at some point? Or do you remember that? Or did something more passionate or of interest kind of seep in and that grabbed your attention? Yeah. I don't remember the actual moment when I started realizing that, but I do, you know, I write a lot about this and a lot about women's sports. So I do think about it a lot. Yeah. I do. I do know that, that there was a point when you, you were reminded so often that you were

a girl. And when I was a kid, I grew up on a farm in Pittsburgh. Like that, it wasn't boys and girls. You just, everyone did the same thing. We all rode horses. We all drove horses. We all did the same work. It just, there, I did not have this definitive difference in my mind between boys and girls. And when I got a little older, especially when I moved to Florida and football is not as much a part of everyone's life. And it was just a very different place than Pittsburgh. Yeah, I do remember it was – I always felt like I was – you were being told you were overcoming something by – I was really good at softball. I played baseball.

I played with boys. You were always, wow, for a girl. I remember I would always hide my hair in a baseball cap because – Oh, so it was like a special achievement that you were able to hang. Yeah. You were supposed to be overcoming something for being a woman. And, and. How old was this? Uh, I would say I started, you realize that looking back like around middle school, because I, you know, I do remember in elementary and middle school,

very much dressing like a boy and hiding my hair in a baseball cap and be, you know, feeling this sense of pride when people would think I was a boy because there was, there was, um, yeah, like a girl wasn't supposed to be doing these things, but I don't remember really, you know, I don't remember the day that I really learned I wasn't going to play for the Steelers, but my love of football never went away. And I really always loved the – I was always captain of the powder puff team in my high school and I played on an intramural squad in college. And I loved the game and the chess match of it.

And so that – and I really loved writing about it in college. I went to the University of Florida, a very big school. I covered the high school football teams around town. And I would, I would practice writing by, um, covering the Madden NFL games. My roommates would play. So I really just always loved the game. Okay. And then you, what did you study in school? You did. Okay. All right. So what was it about your upbringing, your family structure that was so fascinated to like love football other than they just loved it? And then this other idea that you've come to embrace, which is not breaking rules, but moving outside of rules.

So football is really like do your job. You know, that's a phrase that's said often and inside of football, it's almost like in some, some facets, the creativity is up to the coaches and then, and then creativity seems to be expressed once a player gets a ball, right. Or there's something happening in the open field, but for the most part, the creativity is limited to a very burst, short bursts of time in football and most of it is scheme and schematic and you know responsibility driven and that's not a knock or critique it's just kind of the structure of football right and now you're spending time you're fascinated by what seems to be like something that is borderless right right so that I want to understand that from

there's a phrase that's guiding this question for me, which is moving from form to formless is a really important part of the arc of human development, I'd always had these two sides of my personality. And I still think when I have the opportunity to write a football story, it fulfills, especially when it's a nuts and bolts, stat driven, breaking down plays and defenses. It's that nerdy mathematical side of my brain that is that form, right? I remember, you know, growing up on a farm too, and to parents who grew up on a farm, it is work hard. You know, I remember, you know, we, you valued the teams where the players scored a touchdown and then handed the ball to the ref. You know, you took a knee, you know, I remember my, my dad's hair would catch on fire when he would see coaches throwing visors. Funny that I went to Florida and,

and players doing touchdown dances. Right. I mean, we were, it was all about structure. It was about grades and school. And, and I do well in that. I like that. You know, I, as you can see, I brought a sheet of notes here with me so that I would feel prepared, but you are the first person. Yeah. Really? It's awesome. Yeah. But on the other side, you know, I was a gymnast. I was drawn to writing and creativity and drawing. I was always, you know, outside building things, taking things apart, doing things with my hands. Does gymnastics feel like form or formless? Well, I think it started out feeling like form and, and the, the better I got and the longer I was in it, the more I didn't like it because it was too much form. And so I was a cheerleader at the University of Florida.

And as much as the guys and girls I cover in action sports hate hearing me say this, there is such a correlation between acrobatics and partner stunning, which is what you do in cheerleading. And, you know, I was always fascinated by the circus and, you know, I had sort of a dream of being in the circus and action sports. Did you really like a roadie? No, no. I wanted to be a performer in the circus. Okay. Yeah. That's what I meant by roadie, but that's not the right term. Like you wanted to go, not a small circus, but a large circus. Yeah. I was just always fascinated by movement and physical movement and being a college cheerleader.

You know, you sort of look around and you're like, where can I take this? You know, once it's a sport that once college is over, you're just done with it, which is hard. So, you know, I started, took trapeze and I still do and, um, silks and different, I'm just fascinated with movement and how you move, how you move your body, how you move your body with another person, um, you know, in, in say trapeze or partner stunning. So when the first sport that I connected with in action sports, my first assignment was freestyle motocross. And I just remember,

I will never forget the first time I saw it in person. And, and I just remember hearing from people all how crazy all these guys are crazy. And I, it was like, I found my people as strange as that is. I remember standing there and watching these guys jump dirt bikes over my head and, you know, in sort of performing gymnastics on a motorcycle and thinking, how have I never seen this sport? I wish I'd grown up on a dirt bike, you know, and, and it really was, it was the first group of athletes who welcomed me as an outsider. You know, I didn't grow up in action sports. A lot of the other sports are not as welcoming and, you know, they're still some of my closest friends. My boyfriend does

freestyle motocross. I mean, I just really, the only book I've written is about freestyle motocross. And so it just felt like, you know, had I known about, you know, I didn't grow up snowboarding or surfing and they're all sports I love now, but yeah. So I think I've always had these two sides of my personality. So it wasn't so much that I shifted. I just sort of found this world. And I mean, from the very first minute, I was like, this is what I want to do. Do, does that statement make sense to you from form to formless? Does that make sense to you? Yeah. Because action sport like motocross, it's like, for me, it's like this graceful violence you know the an assault on

on all the senses especially racing oh yeah and and but then the grace to be able to you know defy gravity in some kind of ways or push the some limits of gravity and the angles that they can take are so beautiful right in the air and there is that there is although we don't talk about it enough there is that nerdy form side of a sport, especially like freestyle motocross, like any of them. But, you know, you can sit and have a pretty heavy physics and mathematics conversation with anyone who jumps a dirt bike off a ramp. Right. You know, take off, speed, take off, angle, all of that. All of it. You have to build the ramp. You have to keep improving the ramps and that's all physics and mathematics. And so then when you, let's, let's go back people and events that tend to shape us, right? What, what, who are the people and what were the events that,

that shaped you as, you know, a great writer in action sports. And I want to share some of the other fun stuff that you've recently done. Okay. Um, I think the first, I mean, that was probably the first moment was, you know, I was at the magazine. I was, I was, um, writing mostly about traditional sports. How'd you get in? Was that an intern? No, I had moved to New York out of college. I worked at some other magazines. And as sort of crazy as it sounded back then, I told everyone in my life I was moving to New York to be a writer at ESPN, the magazine, which was the most probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever said in my life. Other than you want to be a quarterback for the NFL. Yeah, I think most people probably thought I had equal chance. I mean, they know me enough to know when I say I'm going to do something I, I usually do, but I, you know, I grew up reading sports illustrated. It was my Bible. And in 1997, I was a junior in college and ESPN, the magazine

launched and it was funny and irreverent and, and it just spoke to me. And I was like, this is the kind of writing I want to do. And I, you know, I remember looking at the masthead and seeing it was in New York city. And I was like, New York, like, that's crazy. I've never been in New York. I'm going to move there. And it was just a story I told people. So anyway, I did move there. I worked for some other magazines and then. Well, wait, you're running over that. I feel like that's really important is that you had an idea and then you talked about it. Like, can you pull back how that happens? Because I don't think that this is that different than anybody else who has a goal or a dream or a vision or something.

And can you pull back and just look with hindsight some of the mechanics of how you did that? Yeah, I mean, I think looking back, I was holding myself accountable. Okay. You know, and I believed it. Saying it out loud was the accountability. Yeah, and telling people. But I think, I really truly think I believed it. You know, since I was a little kid, I remember anytime you want to do something, it's like, well, that, you know, if you want to be an actor, well, I can't be an actor.

I'm just like a nobody from, you know, a farm in Pittsburgh or Cape Coral, Florida. How, you know, it's like, well, I can't be an actor. I'm just like a nobody from a farm in Pittsburgh or Cape Coral, Florida. It's like, well, who's that person? Why do they get to do it? And you study their – they just worked harder than everyone else. And, you know, I remember being cut from a team, like an all-star team when I was really, really young and in softball. And I was, I knew I was better than the girl who I was cut for. And I remember my dad saying, the coach's daughter will always make the team over the girl who's next best to her. So you need to be so good that you're not the one competing with the coach's daughter. You need to be the first person they pick and then let someone else get cut because she's around the same talent. What a cool thought about politics. I always think about that.

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mean, that is always, you know, the best athletes in the world, even if some of them will jokingly say like, Oh, I don't work harder than everyone else. They have spent more time doing what they do than anyone else in the world. They really have. You say that with like a lot of certainty. Yeah. I mean, it's always the thing. You know, I used to – the thing that fascinated me when I realized I wanted to write about sports is that I was always fascinated by the person who – usually you're one of two things. You were born with the most talent at the thing you're doing, but those people rarely work the hardest.

Or you weren't initially very good at it, so you outworked everyone. I was fascinated by the people who were clearly born with the most talent for what they do and still work the hardest. What makes you work the hardest when you know how good you are? And what I realized is that those people, I think, and so that was something I would always, the conversations I wanted to have with people who are the best in the world. What made you spend the most time doing it when you knew you already had this advantage? And the thing that I realized is that they were lucky because they happened to be really, really gifted at the thing they were most passionate about. They found their purpose and they found it at three or five or seven or 10. And so they weren't working the hardest at it just to be the best. They just loved it and

spent more time doing it than anyone. Yeah. And this is one of our early conversations. I don't know if this is going to ring a bell for you, but one of our early conversations is that when people like, is it the passion that people have from the thing or do they just know how to feel alive and they happen to get good at that thing? And I don't know if that was really clear, but I think that one of the things we tried to sort out is why people are able to feel so alive in some things. Is it the thing? Is it like motocross? Is that the only thing that they're going to feel alive in that they're just fortunate that they found that at a younger age or do they just know how to feel alive? And that's, and then motocross kind of fit.

Right. Yeah. And I don't have an answer. I don't know if you've pulled on that idea any further. Well, I think there's something about, I think what we were in those conversations, it might not be motocross. If you didn't grow up, I didn't grow up with a family who owned motorcycles. So maybe I would have been good at it. Maybe I would have been good at snowboarding. I think I found other things that I was really passionate about, but I think there was something in the feeling that that gave me the mood, like the movement of body, the creativity of something like gymnastics or partner stunning interacting

with, you know, someone else. Like there was something in flying through the air that, that, that I, I, that did sort of turn on that spark. Um, so I think, I don't think it's so simplistic to say like, oh, well, if you didn't, weren't introduced to the sport that you were going to be best at, then your, you know, life is meaningless. Right. But there was something about that sport that this person was, that Kobe Bryant really had this talent and realized basketball at a young age. I love basketball.

And I do think if you reverse engineer most people's stories and add up the hours, we've talked about this, the hours, you know, we've talked about this, the 10,000 hour rule to me is it almost in my mind feels like a shortcut because it's almost like, okay, I've got to my 10. I mean, I could start right now and in 10 years have 10,000 hours at something. I don't think that makes me a master of it. It might make me really, really good at it. But if you're counting down those hours, you're probably not invested in it at the level that makes you great. Yeah. You know, that then someone who just, it lights them on fire to do it.

And there's a, there's this idea that governs when I'm ever, I'm personally playing or doing something. Um, if there's a, if there happens to be a clock, which there's not that very often, but I remember the days when it was that I love the feeling of the final bell going off or buzzer going off and looking up and going, oh, how'd we do? Because it was the full absorption of whatever I was doing. And I find that in the same way in whatever I'm doing, even in this conversation, at some point, we're going to go, okay, this feels like it's over and we'll have no idea what the time is. Right. Sorry. No, but it's true. Yeah. You know, where do you find that in your life? I mean, I, I mean, I feel it right now when you're like, so, you know, when I was driving here, it's hard, you know, I'm looking at my notes and I'm

trying to think of all the things you could possibly talk about. And, you know, and I do this when I'm on my way to an interview I do this when I'm on my way to an interview with someone, when I'm on my way to a TV shoot, whether I'm going to sit down and write, it's like, I try to manufacture that feeling. How am I going to get into that headspace to do it? And I can't do it then. But as soon as you do it, you turn on. And I think it's the same with, you know, if, if I'm going to go for a surf or go snowboarding, it's like you try and put yourself into the mindset and it's hard to do it until you're in it. And then you're like, Oh, this is fun. This feels cool. Yeah. And then, so you've been studying both form and formless sports,

right? So action sports and adventure and extreme sports, and also very structured, you know, stick and ball traditional sports. What have you found for the human experience outside of sport? So because I've studied in such depth and had such intimate access with some of the best in the world in form and, and adventure sports, I should say, uh, stick and ball sports and adventure sports. What have you found for as an, a way to extrapolate insight from them? And then I'm going to ask you a question about you. Which, as you know, makes me very uncomfortable.

Mm-hmm. I don't completely understand the question. Is that okay? Oh, yeah. So that means I need to ask a more succinct question or a better angle. Or I'm just, yeah, I'm just not. I mean, it's a big question, the human experience. So I want to make sure I understand what you're asking me.

Yeah. From sport, what have you been able to find that everyone else can use or benefit from the insights you've learned from the sporting world or sporting athletics or structure for other people that are not interested in sport, but want to be. Yeah. I mean, you know, this is definitely a conversation we've had. I mean, yeah, lots of, you know, the first thing that I've, that I realized, especially in the action sports world, is it really frustrated me how often I heard the term crazy in a really negative way. I think the term crazy is a really positive word. Crazy ideas are what the forward movement of the

world is based on. So I think that being a little crazy is one of the most, um, powerful things. And I think also, you know, the idea, you know, what I've learned from a lot of these athletes, especially in action sports is, um, the power of harnessing fear and, and a creative mindset. And, you know, when, when a lot of, when people look and see the finished product of a lot of the sort of crazy things people do, whether it's a double backflip on a dirt bike or, you know, Felix Baumgartner jumping from space, you just see the crazy act. You don't see all of the work that went into it. And I wish you did because, you know, I think what you learn from them is commitment as well. You know, if you're around action sports, it's probably the word you will hear second only to stoked.

Right. in a way that you aren't on a basketball court, you know, arguably aren't on a football field in a very different way, possibly, you know, in some of those sports, hockey and football and soccer without complete commitment. And so, you know, I think a lot of us spend a lot of time meditating and reading books and searching for the ability to be present and mindful. And I wish that they understood that these athletes are showing them every day how to do it, because if you are not completely present and mindful, I'm looking over your shoulder, and I don't know if that's Steve Fisher or who that is. Rafa Ortiz.

Rafa Ortiz in a kayak about to go over, I don't know, a 300-foot waterfall. You know, that he's not being crazy there. He is prepared and researched and skilled. And I would argue very, very present in that moment. Um, because if anything goes wrong, you know, he needs to be able to, to correct it. And so that's what I really think, you know, and, and they're really connected. You know, when you talk about the human experience, I find more than almost any athletes when they're hard to pin down. Sometimes you have to duct tape them to a chair, action sport athletes. Yeah. They're busy. Their minds are going crazy. They're always

off to the next thing. But when you are sitting and across from them, they are present and connected like few people in my life. And I've found the exact same thing. And, and you also participate in action sports. So do I, but not even close to the level of the men and women we're talking about. And so, but what happens is that what the threat I'm pulling on for you right now is that when you put yourself in a risky situation or high consequence situation, if you can't figure out how to be present, you're likely going to come up, you know, on the wanting side of the consequence, meaning that it's not good for you. And so there's a, um, use the word shortcut earlier. It's like that phrase makes my blood curl just a little bit. Like there's no shortcuts to anything. However, that being said, is that if you can figure out how to operate in risk scenarios, that it does force you to understand how to be present.

And then the thought is that if you can be present there, you might be able to be more present in other places in your life that are non-risk taking. And have you found some of them to be more present in conversations or do you find them to be so ADD and outrageously wild that, you know, they. Yeah, absolutely. I have. There's a different perspective. Yeah, I mean, absolutely connect. That was the thing that really, you know, I keep saying, well, that was the thing that, you know, it was, I think, along the road, I've had these little moments where I get would get more and more excited, you know, because I had a lot of friends who would go and write a story here and there and just be like, you know, and I and walk away from from action sports. I, you know, I had editors who were like, what are you doing? You are throwing your career away. You have you're on this path to being, you know, really great and in football, writing about football or covering mainstream sports. But I so much so that you named you. Um, I don't know if you're formally credited or is this my name's on the story. Yeah. I mean, I don't tell a lot of people because then I get, do you want to talk about it or not? Yeah. I mean, the very first story that I wrote for ESPN that I was like 24 and working as a copy editor and I was pitching stories and I had this idea.

Like I said, I was really keyed into the Madden video game. I'm terrible at playing video games, but I think they're an awesome tool for learning, especially in something like football. So I would, you know, I would study plays and, you know, counter plays and I would, I would have my roommates in college play each other. And then afterwards I'd have them pretend to be, you know, coach cower and coach Purcells. And then, you know, I would interview them as if they were the coach. I would write up a game story based on the story. And so I was just really keyed into the, Does that make you a nerd? It's not the only thing that makes me a nerd.

But it is definitely, yeah, the girl with her notepad. You know, because I didn't have the opportunity to cover the NFL in college and I wanted... Yeah. So anyway, when the Madden... Your first... Yeah. Your first... When the Madden story was... When the new Madden game was coming out, they had started a few years earlier, not putting Madden on the cover, but putting an athlete. And, you know, I was trying to figure out what a cool story could be about that. And I looked at the guys who had been on the previous covers and Marshall Falk was going to be on the next one. And it was a little bit of luck. And I think anytime you have a season good enough to earn you something like that, you're going to fall off the next season. But I had the luck that the last four guys, the first four guys, had been either fallen off the next season or torn ACLs, really injured. And so I grew up with the Sports Illustrated cover curse. And so I pitched the idea of there being a Madden curse. And so, yeah up with the Sports Illustrated cover curse. And so I pitched the

idea of there being a Madden curse. And so, yeah, that was the very first, you know, it was like, I always say it was the thing that had our editor in chief sort of walk over and say like, you know, who are you? And, you know, he was like, oh, this cheerleader girl gets us. She coined the Madden curse. We should give her a chance to write. So yeah, yeah. I didn't know I was coining anything. I just thought I was just excited to get a byline and get paid. And it just got picked up. And yeah, I mean, we still every year when the Madden game comes out, we talk about the Madden curse.

The Madden curse. Okay. Which is, if you're on the cover, the next year there's a curse, right? There's going to be. I will say Drew Brees did break it cool that's always good okay so let's take that as a as a case example of you now okay so we talked about them and now we're going to talk about you for just a moment see how i did that and then so if we talk about you how did you or how do you find threads that other people are not finding? And let me just give a preamble is that

you found a thread from, um, gymnastics, cheerleading to covering football, right? So there's a thread in there that is an interesting arc, but the thread that I'm really fascinated by is the thread from formed formless back to that concept from traditional sports for you to find interest in non-traditional sports and be able to be well-respected and progressive in both fields of writing. Okay. So how do you find what to write about? Because I think that that's a tangential way that we can maybe learn about your process. They come a lot of ways, you know, there's, you know, there's, There are times when an editor at the magazine will say, I have an idea and I think you'd be really good for it. And so that's one way. That said,

that's a really broad assignment and then you have to find the story within that assignment. And a lot of times it's looking, you know, it's reading, seeing, you know, one small, one sentence in something that I want to know more about. I mean, it's the coolest thing about this job is you get to call up anyone in the world and ask them to talk to you. If I didn't have this job, I would just be a crazy person. Or often I'm sort of like a stalker. I just get to call people over and over and make them talk to me. That is really cool. And our jobs are a little bit similar in that we get to have these really in-depth, amazing conversations with people. The difference is that I then get to tell everyone about those conversations and I'm not bound by any, any doctor confidentiality clause. And that's why I did this. What we're

doing right now is because for, I don't know, 15, 20 years, I was in the trenches with some of the most creative thinkers and problem solvers, some of the best in the world at what they do. And you weren't allowed to tell anyone about it. Yeah. And it's not important to tell who it was, but it's important to be able to somehow share what they solve and what they figure out. And so this is why we get to do this, right? It's like, how do you do what you do is the question. And what has allowed you to be on this path of pursuing an interest in mastery? So you love conversation. I do. And you love to figure out the nuances in how people do what they do. Yes. Right. And that, that has led you to be able to figure out like how to do it in form and formless sport. Yeah. Okay. So what are you most fascinated by?

I want to look at my notes. Just kidding. You know, I still am fascinated by people who, that group of people who still do work harder than everyone else when they also are the most gifted. I do, you know, I've never stopped being fascinated by that. I also am very fascinated by people who the second best person in the world at what they do doesn't understand them. You know, people who truly think differently, who look into the unknown and believe there is more there, who get lit on fire by someone telling them something is impossible and trying to prove it. Um, you know, I realized early, I don't, I don't want to write about the great game or the great season or even the great night on the mound. I, I'm more fascinated in who that person is that has made them capable of

achieving that performance, not necessarily the performance itself. There are lots of people writing game stories. I want to tell you what it is about that person that made it possible for them to, to perform that way under that pressure. It's just, you know, I mean, we've talked about this, like, I think the biggest fear most people have is performing in front of people and people who are able to do that at a level that even the second best person in their sport or in their field marvels at is fascinating. Like there are a lot of people in the world yeah it's a really cool thought that the two best in the world when the second best in the world has no idea really how the first best in the world is operating because it feels like they're playing a different

game inside of the same you know construct yeah like that is a really cool thought and there's not many of them no and it you know and it's when you realize like we spend way too much time working on the physical app, you know, our, our physicality and, you know, we have teams of people for great athletes who are trying to figure out, you know, how to adjust diet and training. And at that level that has nothing to do with it, especially in action sports you know a lot of times when i you think of those people they are not the most physically athletic of the group it is all from the neck up and it really is a laboratory for that yeah and and i don't think people realize how important you know the neck up is and that really is where

you know the diet diet and sleep and all that is wonderful. But like, there's like a very small percentage of, um, improvement. I think you can get in yourself by tweaking that, but if you can train your mind to be more like those people, I think that, yeah, it's just limitless. You know, it sounds like something I'd be interested in too. Sounds like a conversation we've maybe had before. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that.

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Their products are simple. And they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high-quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash findingmastery and use the code findingmastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's CalderaLab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash FindingMastery. are changing the game and then the interest in the neck up and how to unlock that based on what

some of the most amazing progressive thinkers and doers are able to do. Have you ever thought about writing a book about that? Oh, aren't you funny? Yeah, that's a terrible thought, isn't it? So do you want to talk about that story? Sure. Yeah. So we set down this path after people have been asking me for a long time, when do you have a book coming out? When do you have a book coming out? When you're a writer, you would, you would be surprised to know you get asked that even more frequently. You get asked, you got asked that a lot. So the joke behind the joke here is that we set down this path

to try to figure out how to articulate exactly what we came to both be passionate about learning. And it didn't quite work. It didn't quite work. Maybe we should just print this conversation. Right. And then really go into details for each chapter. And then, yeah. So the reason it didn't quite work is like we were ripping and running and, you know, like we couldn't quite find the right rhythm to be able to articulate it right with our other partner as well. Right. And so even this conversation is rekindling all of that. So I don't know if that's happening for you as well. Right. And so, um, even this conversation is rekindling all of that. So I don't know if that's happening for you as well, or you're like, no, no, no.

We took a real run at this and, you know, but that it was a really exciting and thrilling time to be able to do the work with you to try to deconstruct and decode how the best, and I don't mean just, just like someone really good, but the absolute best and most progressive thinkers and doers are able to achieve what they do. It was just an electric time. Yeah, I agree. And we have a really wonderful 30,000-word book proposal if anyone would like to read it. Oh, my God. It is that.

I think, yeah. I mean, as you learn. Is it really 30,000 it's yeah yeah if as you've learned writing a book is really hard you know I had the really good fortune of doing it once um you know but it was it was a lot different it was a partial biography on an athlete and and also really explored these same a lot of these ideas. It was, I think it was the first time. Travis Pastrana. It was on Travis Pastrana. Yeah. He was a, you know, sort of a very multi-sport athlete at this

point, but at the time of freestyle motocross athlete. And, you know, the, the day that I, that book just, you know, flew into my brain. Well, it sort of happened slowly. And then there was just this moment was the day that he landed the double backflip. And, but I remember. Which had never even been thought possible. No. On a bike. You know, he'd thought it was possible.

I think even before the single backflip was landed. But, you know, I remember hearing about conversations, you know, before Caleb Wyatt landed it to dirt and Cary Hart landed it at the X Games, you know, of, you know, the most in the know motorsports and freestyle mind sitting in a room and saying the physics don't work. To do a double. This is not just a single. Oh, the single.

You know, and so, yeah. This is not just a single, you know? And so, yeah, back in like 99, 2000. So fast forward then to, or I think maybe why it did it in 98, but you know, early on, you know, they just really believed it wasn't physically possible. Um, I don't know that they'd brought in an actual physicist at the time, but, but yeah, I mean, when, when he did that back up a few months and, you know, I'd met Travis several times. I remember the first time meeting him having a hard time syncing up this person I'd been reading about and, and, and seen perform with this very humble, aw shucks, nerdy kid standing in front of me. And I was fascinated by that. And he was just so different from the rest of the guys I'd gotten to know.

And I went, but I realized like, I don't know anything about him. I'm reading, I'm searching. I can't find any, I know what he's done and achieved, but I couldn't find anything about like how he looks at the world and how he got great. And, and so I went out to his place in Maryland for the first time. This was probably 2004 and 2005. And, you know, I remember his dad saying, and I could tell, I always knew he never enjoyed speaking to the media. You know, he always felt like he was very polite, but you could just see that there was something else more fun he'd rather be doing.

Gracious, but, you know, not his favorite thing. And I remember getting there and his dad, Robert, saying to me, oh, my son hates the media. You know, good luck getting anything out of him. And I was there for like three days. So I was like, all right, this will be fun. And the next day he's, he comes up and asked me, Oh, did you, have you, you know, have you got a sentence out of him yet? And I said, well, I have four hours on my tape recorders. How's that? You know? And he was like, Oh, how did that work? You know how, yeah. How did that work?

And so listening to him speak, it not about you know never did we talk about being crazy and an adrenaline junkie and extreme you know it was this like wonderful conversation about the way he looked at the world and what he'd learned and things that i knew people three times his age he was probably 21 22 at the time you know we're searching for and reading self-help books to learn, why does this kid get, get it, you know? And so I was just like, there is something here. There's, I don't know what it is, but I, I just, I knew it was nagging at me. And then, you know, I remember standing in the Staples Center and seeing, you know, arguably the,

you know, Nate Adams and Brian Deegan and these guys who are the best in the world at what they do i remember seeing nate praying in the corner and and deegan look away and and you know i think everyone really legitimately scared for travis when he was about to when he was about to do the double backflip and and it was just perfect you know and i remember thinking right then and seeing feeling what everyone felt in that arena. And I was like, I just started believing that people were affected by that in a, not just the guys in his sport who were like, this is possible, you know, light bulbs on. I'm going to, you know, maybe I'm going to try that or I'm going to try something else. But I started

believing that, you know, maybe someone sitting there that day went and asked out the girl they hadn't, you know, had the courage to ask out or they asked for the raise or like somehow that was affecting people. And right then I was like, what if we could do that by writing a book? That's exactly it. Yeah. And can we pull apart the lessons and learnings? I think you and I've been just living those and sharing them in small pockets and, you know, somehow because the thoughts around that seem much more concrete than they did before we met. And, you know, so we're looking at this poster above my shoulder, Rafa Ortiz, and this is the Palouse Falls that he's going over. And he was the second person to ever do it.

And as he was, he was going to actually, he spent three years chasing Niagara and he was going to be the first person in a second, first person in a kayak to go over Niagara. And obviously the death toll of Niagara is staggering of people that go over it. And I think 10 people tried, 15 have tried in various crafts, barrels, mostly five died and plenty of people attempting suicide to go over Niagara Falls. And he purposely wanted to go do it. And he was doing it in training with another number one best in the world at kayaking. And that other person said, no, no, no, I don't have the skill to be able to do that. But I think Rafa does.

And it's that person that when everyone around you says, that's not possible, I'm afraid, I don't think that that's doable. How can they possibly see what's possible? When everyone, Travis, in your experience, when his peers were praying for him and saying to him, whispering in his ear, don't do it. You don't need it. How do they do that? And I don't know. We spent so much time talking about this. Do you have a shorthand version now that would be interesting to go into? I think it's a combination of truly spending more hours, more time doing it than anyone else in the world and having an unwavering confidence. You know, go back to our original conversation when we first met about those bracelets. Some of those second best and top people in the world were wearing them,

even in the action sports world. And, you know, someone sent a box to Travis and he sat him at his front door, you know, and I remember him saying to me, if I need to look at a bracelet or look at anything else for my confidence, I will not be able to do it. I have to be able to stand at the top of a ramp and look around and laugh because I know I am so much better than everyone else. And that is powerful. And he is the least arrogant person. Well, I think that's something else as we've been talking that I, you know, I sort of have this checklist of people in my head. Most of them, I think a lot, you know,

in action sports, maybe more than mainstream sports, but a lot of the athletes I would put in that category are also some of the most humble, you know, if you met him, and I think this is true, a lot of people who are great people who are constantly telling you how great they are, tend to not be great. You know, if someone's great, you just, you know, it's like someone saying like, I'm beautiful. It's like, well, if you're beautiful, I'll just see you. And I'll know you're beautiful. If you're great. Yeah. If you're great, I'll just, I'll know you're great. Maybe I'll Google you later and be pleasantly surprised at how great you are. But, you know, there are not people who sit around talking about how great they are. And there are also people who inspire other people to be great. You know, that was another thing that I was blown away by the first time I was out at Pastranas was seeing kids. There were a couple of people there who had, people will show up at his place unannounced all the time, but who had, who would try things they'd never done before and do things, land things they'd never done before, just because Travis told him they could, that is really powerful. You know, he should be coaching an NFL team.

He sort of is at this point, you know, with his, with his, uh, um, his, his show and, you know, like, but, um, I think that is true. And I think of like, you know, Jeremy Jones, a big mountain snowboarder and Travis Rice, and some of these folks who I think are in that category when people, when you're around them, you become better. And that's really special too. Yeah, I've seen that over and over with people in action sports and otherwise where there's people that hoard information and talent and they just want the spotlight on them.

And it feels like they are sucking the life out of an organization or a group of people. And then there's those that encourage others. And just them being around allows people to think that some cool stuff could take place right now. Yeah, I think that's true in any profession as well, right? But I think that comes with a level of – you have to have a level of confidence in your own – when you know I am the best in the world at this, which I think that they do, you're not worried about sharing information because no one

else, not like you're going to give someone else the power to be better than you, right? Like if you really do believe I'm great at this, you want everyone else to be great as well. You, you, you know, I certainly know people in my own field. If someone else writes a great story, there's just this like jealousy and, you know, somehow it reflects poorly on you. It's like nothing makes me more excited than reading a really fantastic story that one of my friends wrote. And it just challenges you to be better at what you're doing. It's cool.

It's really cool. What are the challenges in your craft of writing? What are the ways that, what are the things that get in the way most often, either internally or externally? Just putting your butt in the chair. That's the number one challenge. I think that is,

that is the thing I always tell when I talk to college students, you know, it's not magical. It's really easy to think like, oh, it's this craft and I'm just going to, you know, sit in the story is going to be ordained to me through some sort of magical process. Put your, you have to put your butt in the chair and it is hard and you spend a lot of time

in your own mind. You know, we don't always write about happy, positive stories. You know, there's a lot of darkness and you just, and you, you know, it's part of your job to not just share details, but to tell people to make sense of it, you know, whether someone agrees with you or not to make someone feel something. And, you know, I had an editor who said, you know, every story should change you in some way. You have to tell me not only what happened, but what you think about what happened and what it means that that happened. And even if I completely disagree with you, that is your job and you have to be confident enough to have an opinion on what happened. And so I think that, especially as a young writer,

I remember like the story and the day that that shifted in my brain. I really do. That's a really powerful thought is that you're going to tell the story, tell what you think about the story and then tell why this story is important. Were those the three? Yeah. And is that part of your formula for every story that you write? I think it have to be is that for everybody that writes or yeah i mean i i think so i think that you you know you can you can paint a beautiful picture um write a beautiful scene and string together a series of events. But if you're not making,

if you're not giving sense to them and finding meaning in them and saying, this is why you should be reading this story. And this is why it matters to you, you know, when you're, you have to find a way, which has always been a challenge with action sports athletes that I really like is you, you, you know, finding a way that any basketball fan, you know, I work at a magazine that is pretty form based. And so why should anyone read about Travis Pastrana or Travis Rice or Rafa Ortiz? You know, how can that change me in some way? How can I connect with them? And there certainly are ways. I think you just have to think a lot harder than you do if I'm pitching a football story or a basketball

story. Because more people are naturally going to be inclined to double click into that story. So how do you work with your mind? You said you spend a lot of time in your mind. How do you work with it? What does your process look like when nothing's coming or it's coming too fast or it's not making sense? How do you manage that? Yeah. So luckily I was working on a story yesterday that was not the shape of it. What like the creative part of it wasn't coming fast. The details, you know, it's sometimes you have too many, there's such thing as too many details but you know as you know i'm sort of a research fanatic and sometimes you can that can be a crutch you know you can have too much information and then you know you have to boil it down to one

small thing and so i try really hard you know i'm still a pen and paper person, so I'll sit and just write notes. What is it about this story that resonates? What is resonating with me as just a human that I can connect with this person whose story is so different from my own, you know, and then, you know, structurally you're thinking about, you know, how this person has changed and what the arc of her story is. And, um, but, you know, a lot of times, you know, how this person has changed and what the arc of her story is. And, um, but you know, a lot of times, you know, like any, anyone, any creative process, I go for a run, I take a shower, I keep a notepad in my shower. Are you thinking during that time? I'm not, I'm not purposely thinking I turn on music and then something that's one of the benefits I think of writing about so many different things is that often something I'm having a conversation about over here that has absolutely nothing to do with this over here ends up informing.

If all I wrote about was football, I'd have a really sort of, I think, narrow view of the game of football and how to write about it, tell stories about it. If I only wrote about motocross, if I only, you know, it's like because there's such a wide range of things. So a lot of times I do, I, I, I try to, if it's really not working out, I go somewhere else and do something else. And then I think of stories often as puzzles, you know? So sometimes putting your butt in the chair means, you know, writing, I have this this

great idea for a for a paragraph or a thought about this person so I just will write and write and write and write and then you go back and you edit and you and you realize that doesn't fit or that doesn't make sense but I do and yesterday at the end of the day I was like you know I started out the morning with nothing and at the end of the day I had was like, you know, I started out the morning with nothing. And at the end of the day, I had 1800 words, which is probably twice as long as it needs to be. But I but I was I just said today, it's true. You know, if you just do the work, and you keep shaping it and keep shaping it, a story unfolds. How do you deal with doubt? How do you deal with negative, negative self talk, if you will, which is like an overused statement, but like that doubt, that bite, that critique, that worry.

A couple of ways, because I think at the beginning, especially of a really big story, and that's the thing, it's like, what's a bigger story than not? You know, I think one way is by doing, writing a lot, because if it's been a little while since I've written a long story or, or maybe this is going to be a cover story. So all of a sudden it becomes more important in your brain and, oh my gosh, I'm not good enough. The last cover story was so amazing. You know, you, you quickly, at least for me, I quickly forget anything I've ever written before, you know, anytime anyone said like, I really liked that. And suddenly it's just, you know, oh, what if I'm not good enough? What if this person's trusting me with their story and I'm, you know, not up to

the challenge. How loud does that get in your head? Less and less, I think the more experienced I've gotten and, and the, where I know I can quiet it by working hard, you know, and by really being so dedicated to doing the best. I know that when I turn a story in, it is the best possible thing I could have turned in the best work I could have done in that moment. Maybe if I'd had two more months or, you know, but that I think keeps that doubt away. And just, like I said, just doing, I'll take assignments constantly just to keep in practice because getting through it, you would again, again, remember, Oh, I know how to do this. This is familiar to me. Yeah. I didn't forget how to, you know, I just had a thread that I've never

had on that thought that you had, and I'm having an idea I've never had before. So tell me what you think about this is that your, your process is to work, get your butt in the chair and work and go. And that almost dilutes any of the noise that comes when you're not actually working. Right. But when you're actually working it, that voice, maybe that inner dialogue lessons somehow, or maybe even goes away. But the process of working is I think what many people do and, but they work at the physical. This is, so there's physical, um, technical and mental training that humans can do and they go work on the physical, right? So that's what athletes and coaches will tell most people to go do just work on the physical and get better physically or technically. And if we rewind back,

like, uh, I don't know, 20 minutes ago, you were talking about the importance of the above the shoulders, and training that. And I think it's hard for people to know what mental training is, like, how do you do mental training? And, you know, it's imagery, and it's awareness of self talk, and all of the stuff that we've ever talked about. But does that seem like that's a trap for many people is that they go to work, but they work on the thing that's easy to work on or the most concrete thing. The very first sentence on my nerdy notepad under the words, finding mastery is work on your weaknesses, work on your weaknesses.

Is that an approach? I think it is the hardest thing to do, but it's another thing that I find. Cause you know, you asked me, I think maybe at the beginning of this or before we even were recording and you'd asked me before I got here to define mastery, you know, and I think mastery it's, it's called, you call this finding mastery for a reason, right? I don't think mastery as a destination. I think it's

a search. I think you're, you know, if you're constantly trying to master yourself, that is mastery, right? I think there's a difference between mastery and greatness. And so to me, mastery is this search, this constant learning and seeking. And so, yeah, it's fun to work on the things you're good at, but to be great at things, you have to work on the things you're bad at and the things that are just, or maybe you're not even bad at them, but they're not as fun or they're, um, you know, it's, it's not fun if you're a right-handed batter to practice swinging left-handed, but there's a benefit in that, right? If you're a gymnast who always spins one way, you spin the other way.

Same with, you know, action sports. You know, if you're really good in, you know, at a certain trick in the half pipe, you want to just keep working on that trick, you know? But yeah, the people who are great. i remember sitting in a room once sean white started playing started playing the guitar he's a sean white snowboarder skateboarder one of the best if not the best for a long time at both um but certainly at snowboarding and he had started playing the guitar now he's you know in a band but i, and he's quite good at the guitar, but I remember sitting in this room and he didn't sound very good. And so, you know, one of us asked like, what are you doing? And he was like, I'm so bad at, you know, whatever, whatever it was that he was working on. And he was like,

I'm obsessed. I obsessively work on my weaknesses. And I was like, okay. There it is. You make more sense today. And so, yeah, I think that that – maybe that answered your question. You said something about if it's hard to do the things. Well, training your mind I think is something that maybe you don't think about doing. Yeah. And also you're right.

Like if you don't know how to – if you've never meditated before it feels very strange at first you're like i'm certain i'm not doing this right how could i be doing this wrong i'm definitely doing this wrong how could this help me and it takes a really long i still think that half the time but you know if i'm struggling like i was yesterday i meditate do you yep i'll find if and especially if i'm like i don't think i'm in a place to just meditate. I'll find like a guided meditation. I read and read and read and read and read. And sometimes, you know, just reading great, reading good writing, you know, who are the good writers or the great writers that you enjoy? Oh my goodness. There's so many. Well, I will yesterday, you know,

well, okay. So if you're on a deserted Island, silly, silly, but my goodness, cause I'm going to pick it up. I'm not familiar as familiar with the classics that I would. Oh, classics. Okay. I would love usually when I will say though, usually when I'm reading to, and maybe I shouldn't think this way, but I tend to read magazine stories when I'm struggling because they're, those are definitely past the test of time for the ancients. Well, yeah. You know, yesterday I, I sat down and read the, well, last weekend this was, I sort of had the same situation working on a story. I read Gay Talese's, who is a famous feature writer. But he just wrote this unbelievable story for Esquire about a...

We actually might have been in The New Yorker. Oops. About a man who 35 years ago called him and told him he had a hotel where he was essentially spying on his the residents in the hotel. And he believed that he was doing some credible research on sex and the human behavior, human behavior. And gay was the only person he told. And so for 35 years, he kept this secret. And then the man finally said, I want to tell the world. So it was a fascinating story. It brought up a lot of conversations about ethics in journalism.

And then, you know, I think anyone who's a sports writer has read my friend Wright Thompson's Tiger Woods piece this weekend and felt a twinge of jealousy and marveled at the amount of work he had to put into that. And so I think sometimes just that, it's like, yes, I'm marveling at structure and I'm sort of looking at how was his brain working when he did this interview? He never spoke to Tiger. So how did he get this piece of information and the structure? But then you just sit and go, he worked really damn hard on this. Am I working as hard as I possibly

could be on this, what I'm doing right now? That for me sometimes. So, um, yeah, again, am I answering your questions? Yeah, no, I'm right there with you. Yeah. So, um, what I'm also curious about though, is a book or an author that has been inspiring to you? One that has been like one that I like that is really great writing that I could go look at to understand really great writing. The book that sits on my, you know, this is such a random answer, but the book that I believe made me want to be a nonfiction writer. You know, as a kid, I just loved writing and telling stories. And so as a kid, you make it all up, right? Now I marvel at people who can make it all up.

But the book I read in 10th grade that made me go, I don't want to make it all up because there are stories out there that can be beautifully written and tragic and fascinating, and they're about real people. And I had always been, you know, really connected to people and, and was in cold blood by Truman Capote. And, you know, and then I read Breakfast at Tiffany and, and so he has always been this fascinating character to me, but there was, that was that there was something and every once in a while reread it. And I think it's just that I couldn't believe that you could tell such a horrible story in such a beautiful way. Like the prose in that book is so beautiful. Cool.

Definitely look at it. Yeah. Okay. But it's a tragic story of a multiple homicide in a small town. But yeah. Here we go. I was darker than I knew as a child. Were you?

Were you? No, I don't think so. But I don't know. Why did I connect with that book? So let's pull on that a little bit further. Is that so we talked about the dark side. Yeah. And the, you know, the underbelly of pursuing personal best or the best. And for you, this is not about them. But for you, what has been one of the costs of you on this progressive clip to keep getting better and being one of the first in action sports to really lay the groundwork for what amazing is taking place? Well, I think sometimes your own, I think it's probably true of anyone who really dedicates a lot of their life and time to wanting to be really good at

something and do it incessantly is, you know, I think that your personal relationships at a point suffer because, you know, for me, I was always on the road. I still am. Um, and I think also sometimes when you're, you know, when I'm being reflective and having conversations like this, a real passion for telling other people's stories, sometimes your own story gets lost in that. And taking care of the things that you, that I am really, every once in a easy for me to get caught up in just other people and other worlds. And sometimes it's hard because you fall into, I think as a journalist at all or a writer, you enter into someone's life for really sometimes short, sometimes not so short, but a really passionate amount of time, especially if it's a really deep story. You're having these conversations that you wouldn't have with some of your best friends and you feel like really it's like a very immersive experience in their life and then it's like bye and you maybe will talk to this person again and so I think sometimes especially when I was younger

you can get caught up into almost feeling like you're a part of their world or this world and then you're like what what world am I a part of? Who are my friends? Who are the people I'm just telling their stories? And so I think as you get older and more self aware and more secure in who you are, you know, it's a lot easier to bounce in and out of people's lives. But a lot of times, you know, it takes me a while personally to let go of, even though I quickly move on to the next story. It takes me a while to the effect of that that person or that story has had on me to sort of. And why was that dark? There's a beautiful thought. Oh, I didn't know we were going dark. I think you were just saying what are some of the pitfalls. Yeah. Yeah.

But it sounds like you can lose your way. Yeah. Because you're finding everyone else's. Yeah. And then the idea that what group am I part of and what is my tribe? Is it the spread out visiting tour that I go on that's really intense and passionate and personal or is there something else? And so how have you,

is that right? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And then, so how have you, has it taken you, this is interesting. Has it taken you longer to know you or has this been an acceleration for hard to know when I, when I would have known myself better, you know, I mean,

maybe it has taken longer because, you know, as we sit here, I'm like, I spend a lot of time trying to really understand a person. And it's hard to know if you, you know, the story I'm working on right now, you know, we met on Skype, a few interviews, how am I supposed to tell the world who this person is and what they, you know, make and make sense of them. Right. When I, I'm, I haven't known them my whole life. And so, but I do try and stop and use myself as a point of reference. Okay. If I'm telling a story about myself, how would I do it? Wow. I'm a different, I would write a different story today than I would a week ago. So I have to understand that I might not write that what I'm writing about this person might not be true, their complete truth in a month, but it has to be what I know to be their complete truth today, right?

So I guess I spend time, maybe more time than I would if I weren't a writer and the kind of writer I am thinking about myself and who I am, but maybe it forced me more than I, if I had just sort of stayed in my lane and, you know, it's like, I, you know, I'm this person and, and I'm defined by being, you know, a writer or a football writer or this, like, I think I realized that like, you, you can't be defined by the thing you're doing. And so often I think like, who am I?

What are the things I love doing? Who are the people that matter most? Who? And so then it's like, that's who I am. I'm not answer that for us. Answer what? Who are you? You're not, you're not a writer. Well, I think that's part. Yeah. That's part of, I think I'm a P I'm a, a passionate people connector. I think if, you know, when I was thinking of what are the things that I'm passionate about that are the threads throughout all of the sports and the work that I've done. I'm a storyteller for sure. You know, I remember the teacher who was the first teacher who didn't tell my parents I talk too much. They told my parents I like to tell stories. And I remember that

impacting me in like a positive way because talking was always a negative thing. And I was always standing in the corner because they're being moved around. And cause I always wanted to make friends with every, you know, the teacher would say, you know, we move Alyssa and then she just makes friends with the person we move her next to, you know? And so I remember the moment that I was like, okay, telling stories isn't a bad thing. That's really cool. What a powerful little seed that someone dropped into your early on. Yeah, it's crazy how you, you know, you never, I think of that often, like you never know how what you say to someone will impact them, negative or

positive. So it's really, you know, I try as much as possible to be mindful of the things I say to people, especially young people, my nieces and kids I talk to when I'm speaking to classes and stuff. Like someone says one positive thing, you know, with that, with that in mind, what, what are the thoughts that guide, is there a phrase or a word that guides your life? This is more like, do you have a philosophy that is, you know, you've organized, I've never thought about this, but the word that just popped into my head was movement. And I don't, you know, it's like, I have to sort of think about that, but I just like that word just flashed across my eyes. And I think it's, it's when I'm

at home and antsy and wondering like, what is going on in my mind? Why, you know, can't I sit still? I need to go move and, and try something new and, and create it, be creative in that way. And I think that it's, it means moving forward. I think it means traveling and, and seeking and learning. I love learning, you know, like my favorite thing is to learn a new skill. The remnants of that in my week are, I've been lately going down to the beach and slacklining and my boyfriend has been helping me improve my motocross skills. And the remnants of that in my week are amazing because it's just I'm not I like not being good at something and seeing each day getting better. Like that is so fun. That's also movement for you. Yeah.

Yeah. How many countries have you been to? If you had to guess. I have I would say 50 ish. I haven't been to Antarctica. You have not. I had a really it was almost recently, but no, that's my continent. I still have on the. seen a lot of Antarctica. You have not. I had a really, it was almost recently, but no, that's my continent. I still have on the, that's two of us.

So, um, one of the reasons I was asking you a question earlier about the process of becoming you is because one of my mentors early on in my profession, I had lots of questions about, you know, how do I know what to say? And this was like, right when I was getting my license. And he says, Mike, this is what I want you to pay attention to. Everything that you'll need to ever understand about yourself will be in the chair next to you. I was like, what? He says, just pay attention to what's happening across from you. And you'll learn more about yourself on this journey than you ever thought possible by learning more about others. That's cool. Yeah. So that, that phrase really stuck with me as well, is that, um, a way to discover self

is to discover self of others. And in that process that you can't help, but really self reflect if you are of interest in growth and progression, you know, internally. So that was why I wanted to ask that question for you. Well, and I think it's why people who tend to be self-aware, a lot of the folks we're talking about also feel so connected in a conversation. Yeah. They're able to be in it. Yeah. They're in it. And they actually are, they know that the person they're talking to can have, you know, they could learn something from them. They're not thinking, I know everything.

They really do believe I could learn something in this conversation to make me even better. Yeah. God, it's electric to be around people like that. Totally. Absolutely. Okay. With that, um, let's see if we can pull on a couple ideas for you. Is that a couple more, which is my favorite topic. It all comes down to how do you finish that thought? Happiness. Keep going. That is the question.

I also have a mentor who I think was one of the most important people in my life when I started at ESPN. And he would ask me every probably six months, are you happy? Are you, is this what you want to be doing? What do you want to do in three years? What do you want to do in five years? And if I couldn't answer him, I would have to come back with an answer. Even if that's not what I ended up doing, it is impossible to, if you had asked me out of college, what, I mean, I couldn't even have imagined the career I have and the path I've taken. But he was like, even if it's not exactly what you do, I need you to be

able to articulate what you want to do next, or you'll get stuck here. And so I do that for myself a lot because he's, you know, he doesn't, he doesn't work at ESPN any longer. We still stay in contact and he always asks me that. It's always the first thing he asks me. And I go into now even a coffee prepared for that. But so I often say, am I happy? You know, what would make me happier? And I think I'm good at, at, at then shifting things around to get back on that path. Have you found the difference between pleasure and happiness to be confusing for people? Pleasure being temporary, fleeting, time-sensitive, and happiness being enduring, deep, sustainable. I don't know. It's not a conversation I've had. You've probably had this conversation more than me. But yeah, I think it's easy to chase pleasure.

I mean, I think when people say adrenaline junkie, that's what they mean. I mean, there is such a thing as extending your tolerance for adrenaline and needing that high. But I think that's what you're chasing, right? You're chasing that like pleasure. That's's a drug that is drugs, right? You're chasing pleasure that doesn't necessarily make you happy, you know? And so that's what I try, you know, it's like, Oh, I might've had a really fun day, but is that day, if I had, if I lined up a hundred of those days, would I be where I want to be and really happy in my life? No, that was just like one really fun day. And so, yeah, I do think it's

easy to confuse them, but you have to separate them and think, you know, I think happiness is more, you know, I, I don't like when people, you know, I, you know, there's lots of quotes about it being a choice. I, you know, I think that's hard because a lot of people struggle and, and don't have the ability to really make that choice. I think I'm fortunate in that I tend to be able to look around and I'll make a list of what are the things I've done lately that make me really happy that I really feel that I'm, um, I'm taking pleasure from it, but I also feel, you know, I, I feel successful and that I've achieved something and that I want to continue doing and I want to learn, um, continue learning. And, and then I say like, okay, how can I make my sort of work and life line up with those things?

Got it. Okay. And you're not always in complete control. I mean, you can't just walk into your bosses and say, I've realized these five things make me happy. These five things don't. I don't want to do them anymore. You know, you don't get to do that, but you sort of figure out how to do more of the things that.

And then, so your work is public and there's lots of people that look at your work and that can come with praise and critique. And I don't know if this is, I just led you down a conversation or path, but I'm curious about fear for you. And is there a point in time that you remember when you became aware of what you're afraid of, most afraid of in life well i think as a right yeah i mean i think being judged you know and i think like i was telling you there was this moment when i didn't really realize what we were saying what i was saying the, the importance of, or what you're, you know, you're, what you're supposed, and when I was in college and, you know, just, the, um, sort of activities side of, um, I believe the Marine Corps, um, and work to bring down some entertainment. And so I went down with them and the day we went

down to Guantanamo Bay, the front page story of the New York Times was the force feedings of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay the day we left. Oh boy. Yeah. And, you know, and here you are doing tricks in the water. You know, we went surfing and we went wakeboarding. Guantanamo Bay is beautiful and lush and green. And I'm meeting all these soldiers who are having this wonderful break from their reality, but their reality is, you know, you see this prison looming and you um, shut down, you know, there's a front page

news story about, you know, some atrocious things possibly going on and, and the reality that these men and women are far from their families and, you know, serving the country and making this great sacrifice. And what story do I tell? I work in a sports magazine. I don't work at the New York times. And so the story that I turned in was, I think really pretty and really well-written. And, you know, my editor sort of called me in and told me that. And he said, but you've completely missed the point. You have to tell me what it was like for you.

Not in first person, but you need to tell me what it means that these kids were down there while all of this is going on and what that was like. And I remember the title of the story ended up being heavy water. And, and I just remember sitting in his office going like, who am I to tell anyone what it means to be on this controversial military base, you know, and walk into even the, I remember walking into the, um, the cafeteria, the mess hall and, and the, most of the soldiers who were working in that area had black patches over their name tags, you know, because they said it was, you know, you don't want any of anyone being held

there to know your name or see your number. And so, you know, it was like, but who am I to, you know, and he was like, if, if, if that is how, what you think, then tomorrow will be your last day here. You know, I mean, that is why you are here. I might not agree with your opinion and I might not agree with how you see it, but it is your job to tell me what you think about this. And I remember being like, yeah, there's a fear in that, of course, of owning your opinion of something and knowing that people are going to, some people will love it and some people will hate it and, you know, being judged. And you know, I think when I was younger, I was definitely a people pleaser and

you certainly can't please everyone. I don't know that I've met a sports writer who's achieved that. So, yeah, but I think in that moment is when I realized, I mean, I really it was just like the switch. I'd never thought of that. I'd never thought that that was my job. I thought my job was to tell you what happened and, you know, form pretty sentences. And I realized, no, that is not my job. I thought my job was just to tell you what happened and, and, you know, form pretty sentences. And I realized, no, that is not my job. And it changed the kind of stories I wanted to tell for sure. And I, and I stopped reading the comment section also. Oh, you know, we're all masochistic to a point. So there are times when I read them and then I say, why did I do that?

I don't think, I don't think athletes are prepared or people are prepared to read, um, social media about themselves if they're in a public place or even a semi public place. Like it's, I don't know if we're prepared for that as, as people. Yeah. Okay. Um, let's go into, let's go. Yeah. Am I answering your question? Yeah. A hundred percent. And then because what you're, you're reminding, I think, all of us the importance of being true, being honest, and that requires risk taking. And when you take that risk, the fear is that it might come up short by those that want to judge. Yeah, I mean, there's always, yeah, I mean, that's when you, yeah, maybe that's another word. It's all about honesty. I really try in my life and in my career to be as honest as possible.

But yeah, there are times you're doing that and you think, well, what if they don't like me? You know, I think everyone has that little voice in the back of your head. And, you know, I learned you just have to shut that down. It does not matter if anyone, how do you shut it down? I think I just remember, remind myself that I am, it does not matter if someone likes what I wrote, that is not why I'm doing it. And if I am completely honest with myself that I just turned in the best story I can possibly write in the, in an honest story, it might, you know, I might see, I am going to see a situation, a person, a story differently than everyone else, but it was the most honest

version of that story. Then yeah, I have to be comfortable with that and okay with that. Okay. How about on that thread, pressure comes from? Oh, within. Absolutely. I mean, yeah, you know, I, I, you know, I work in a pretty competitive space. And so there's, I think there's pressure too, from your editors, you know, from your peers, but the desire to meet that pressure comes from within, right? So if I wasn't putting that pressure on myself, I'd just be lazy. And, you know, I am not one of those people. And I think this is why I'm fascinated you know, I am not one of those people. And I think this is why I'm fascinated by them. I am not the person who was born with the most talent as a writer. You know, I mean, it's hard work for me every day. You know, when I was in school,

calculus was easy for me. I wish that writing and language was as easy for me as calculus. You know, my friends at home always joke that I was the kid they copied off of and cheated off of in calculus. Numbers and math were easy, but they did not interest me at all. You know, it is fun whenever to do those sort of stat stories, but I'm not. Yeah. So I think, you know, I'm that person who's, who has had to work harder than everyone else. Okay. Where, what, what can you help? And that's like a weird statement. I can't say I work harder than everyone else.

I mean, most people probably work as hard if not harder, but I think knowing that think knowing that it doesn't come easy has made me not lazy. Yeah. And helped you work hard. And helped me work hard. Okay. So. Because I want to keep doing it. I don't want to get fired and I want to match those pressures.

So yeah, I want to get to keep doing it. What kind of, I don't know, takeaways can you give some folks about how to follow their passions or live their dreams or write well, or like, what are some things that you've come to understand? You say, if you do this, I think it's really worked well for me. You might want to try it. Well, I think at anything, you look at the people who you think are the greatest at it and you learn from them, you, you know, like I said, I get to call up those people and ask them how they got great. Um, and then hopefully we, I get to write stories and we all get to write stories and you get to have podcasts like this so people can listen.

I think that is number one is if you want to be a great writer, you read great writing. Um, you don't necessarily try to emulate it, but you'd be inspired by it. And you take something from everything that you read. I think you work really, really hard. And, you know, for writing in particular, I think you can get caught in this trap of believing that there, I mean, there is certainly an art to writing and, and, and obviously a creativity,

but you can get really caught up in thinking that, you know, I'll use your beautiful office as an example. You know, I can't write unless I'm sitting in a beautiful space surrounded by koi ponds and soft music and a sunset. This is not my office. Just to be clear. Yeah, right. But a beautiful view of the ocean, as you do have, and I can only write in the morning. I can only

write at night. You have to just be, I think, writing anytime. Sometimes I'll get up in the morning and write just because I don't want to think I can't write in the morning. Even if I don't really have anything I need to be doing that morning, or I'll write really late at night, or I'll go sit in a busy Starbucks, which even though people tell you they go to Starbucks to write, people go to Starbucks to be seen writing. It is a maddening place to try and write. People go to Starbucks to be seen writing. It is a maddening place to try and write. So I'll try and do things like that. So like, yes, when the stars align and you feel creative and inspired and you're in this beautiful space, yes, you can write there, but you need to be able to write, you know, in a crowded media center in Rio at three in the morning when your story was due an hour ago as well,

and hopefully be close to as good as you would be sitting in that. So I think that maybe that goes to working on your weaknesses, but, you know, never saying like, I can't do this. I can't do that. And just, um, and practice, you know, maybe that's work hard, but yeah, that's the practice. Brilliant. Okay. My vision is surrounding out the conversation. When you do these things, I think you're going to say what your vision is. And then I get very interested in hearing what your vision is. And then I realized this is for you. This is a, this is a fill in the blank and I have to, man, my vision is, this is such an obtuse question, Mike Treve. It is.

Um, I think my, uh, my vision is, is to, I really like watching you squirm. Like this is really funny. I look around when I think, so I don't mean to not be making eye contact, but I, I know you're trying to read. I'm like looking on my brain, my brain.

Yeah. Like I can see, what does that mean? That you look inside your brain, like a catalog sort of like whenever I can, I sort of look into open space and then i can see words and like when the when the word movement like i could see the word movement or if i can't remember someone's name i can i can see it in front of me if that makes sense is that how you did calculus as well

maybe i think i have a more mathematical brain and so yeah that's a good question. I've not really thought of that, but yeah, I can, I sort of, I, I, I can, I'll see either an image or a, um, a picture or a word or a number. Um, we have got so far in some way, you know, whether that is like constantly trying to figure out what my purpose on this earth is. And, you know, I think that changes daily. You know, my purpose today was to sit with you and have this conversation. Um, but I think my vision is to keep, um, exploring and pushing and growing and, you know, and meeting incredible people and, and telling stories about them. This is so many visions, but no, it makes sense. I think it's a threat of much of what we've talked about, you know, which is like, my vision is to keep doing the same and adding to the world by sharing how others have

been yeah on their travels what they've come to figure out yeah and to just yeah and to keep on that you know like i don't think you ever i love that you named this finding mastery because i just don't think you ever arrive at that so i hope that I always want, you know, desire to be improving and growing and be great at things. You know, like I, I think I like learning things because I enter every new thing as if like, maybe this is the thing I'm best at, you know, maybe, maybe I'm going to be a, you know, a 39 year old slack liner. I don't know. Maybe, you know, maybe it was motocross all along, you know, like maybe it is doing a podcast. Maybe it is being on TV. Like everything might be the Been in the trenches with the best in the world. In the most beautiful of scenarios and the ugliest of scenarios meeting Guantanamo Bay meets action

sports and the ugly side of and the beautiful side of traditional sports. And then you have this is like all kind of like really cool stuff. Slacklining and motocross and surfing and all of the stuff that you try out and go do

in snowboarding at a really good level, by the way. And then, um, walk us through, uh, rally. No, not rally. What was it that you did in the back country in the desert that you happen to be like, I have a gold medal for. Um, yeah, it's, uh, it's an off, it's an off-road rally, um, called the Rally de Gazelles, Rally Ica de Gazelles. It's in Morocco in the Sahara desert. Um, they call it the toughest all women's motocross motorsports event in the world. Um, it's, you know, it's, I drove for a good friend, Chrissy Beavis, who is Travis Pastrana's co-driver in Rally America. It's not a race. It's, you know, it's not like a flat out, um, rallying in the desert, which also would have been fun, but yeah, that was really cool. Chrissy invited me to be

her driver. It, you know, at the end of the day, the navigator in that race is the rock star. And, I mean, she is one of the best in the world. It's 10 days. You're driving through the Sahara with no GPS. It's a point-to-point race. So you have checkpoints, and you have to get to them in the shortest distance possible. So it's, I would say a driving and navigation competition, right? It's, you want to be, you have to be able

to drive over gnarly terrain without breaking your car by the 10th day in the shortest distance. And so, yeah, I had to, I had to learn to drive a very big vehicle in, you know, like the sand dunes of Morocco, which, you know, over, you know over you know in really steep mountains it was it was cool but what was fun was it's been a long time since i've just competed for me i mean of course i ended up writing stories about it and and for chrissy of course but you know it was last name beavis it was about competing you know and like and trying to be the best in the world. And it was so much fun. I mean it was without a doubt the hardest – probably the hardest competition I've ever been a part of. You're just sleep deprived.

But it was all about mental focus. I mean it really was 14 hours a day of meditation. Wow. And you didn't have any, they took away your computers and phones and everything on day one. So for 10 days, nothing. You had no connection to the outside world. Your friends and family could watch you online, but you didn't. And you had to be so focused because as a driver,, you know, 10 inches from right in front of me and Chrissy's giving me, you know, keeping me on a line and I don't see, you know, that I'm about to drive us off the side of a cliff, that would be bad.

So you are so hyper-focused. It was cool. I mean, and it was cool. You know, I mean, there are people who've done it for a long time. I wanted nothing more than for Chrissy to get to win that event. And so, yeah, we won, which is really crazy. I mean, it's not crazy because I had like the greatest partner ever. But, you know, I will take a little credit for, you know, chauffeuring her around the desert.

So good. Fast. Very fast. All right. Well, this is, um, thank you for this conversation. Thank you for, yeah, for, for inviting me. Oh yeah, please. The way you've unwound how the writing process works and how you've been fascinated about people on the world stage that are crazy, you know, and redefining what that word really means, uh, that it's not like mentally insane. It's literally seeing the world just a bit off axis and following their nose to understand what that means.

So I loved it. Thank you. Oh, thank you. This was really fun. Where can we find more about you and what you're doing and your column and your line or whatever? Where can folks follow and learn more? Okay, so I know a writer for

espn the magazine so my stories pop up there and on espn.com espnw.com xgames.com i sort of write for all of it um i have a website where i keep a blog sort of behind the scenes of the stories you know getting to go and tell these stories and stuff that doesn't make it into the... What is that? It's just aliceronic.com. Okay. And X Games is coming up June 2nd through the 5th in Austin, Texas. And so you'll see me on the sidelines of events as one of our TV reporters. Yeah. Meaning right after the event is done.

You do some commentary during the event. But right after event, are you right there, right when they land? Yeah. So I'm sort of, sort of the start of the show throughout the show is sometimes as like a third analyst and, um, giving reports throughout it, but then, yeah, we're interviewing athletes throughout the event. And then, yeah, at the end it's, that's cool. It's cool to be, you know, to be in the middle of it as close as you could possibly be. And, you know, the questions that everyone is wondering at home, you get to walk up and say, well, why'd you do that? What was that like? What happened? And then what's your social media?

What does that? On Twitter, I'm at ESPN underscore Alyssa. When I was, that's the only thing I was an early adopter of. And so I didn't understand what your handle was. So it was just my login to my email. And then on everything else, Instagram, Snap, all that, it's at Allie Rowe, A-L-Y-R-O-E. A-L-Y-R-O-E. R-O-E.

Beautiful. Nickname. Melissa. Thank you. Thank you so much. I have learned a lot. I would love to flip this and just now interview you for an hour. We'll do that sometime.

Okay. All right. So those still listening, thank you very much. And head over to FindingMastery.net and you can find other interviews as compelling. And then also iTunes for Finding Mastery. And then if you have some questions about this and other podcasts, at Michael Gervais on social media, meaning Twitter. And Alyssa, thank you. Yeah, thank you so much.

This is fun. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter

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