Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Angela Duckworth: Passion and Perseverance

Episode Date: May 18, 2016

Dr. Angela Duckworth studies grit and self-control, two attributes that are distinct from IQ and yet powerfully predict success and well-being. In This Episode: -The value of process vs. outcome -How she first came to value grit -Her definition of grit -Impact of self-control on grit -The differences between achievement and mastery -Sunk-cost fallacy -Setting a goal at the right level -Is passion or perseverance harder? -The 3 kinds of character that are most important_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And in this conversation, we get to sit down with Dr. Angela Duckworth. And Angela is a professor at UPenn and is the founder and scientific director of Character Lab. It's a nonprofit that she set up whose mission is to advance the science and practice of character development. Now, she's most widely known for her research on grit and her interest in self-control. And she defines grit as passion and perseverance for long-term goals. We'll get into that in this conversation. And why you might be interested in this is because, according to research, that grit might be one of the more important characteristics that's associated with people who experience

success. So it's worth an investigation if you're new or unfamiliar to it. And I think, hopefully, that this will prime you to either buy her book, which is just launched, and or do some other research around the concept. Okay. Now, if it is one of the more important characteristics, what exactly is it? And there is conversation in the scientific community about how do we really understand what grit is? And we get a little bit into that in this conversation. So I hope you enjoy that. And as the title of her book, which is grit, the power of passion and perseverance, the book that the title of grit might conjure up this idea of hard work. And certainly that is part

of anybody's process toward world leading and, um, performances and really understanding what it takes to pursue potential. However, my experience and it's, and I think, um, she draws a really bright line around this is that it's really about passion and understanding and feeling what it feels like to be switched on and to have that passion about oneself. And then to have practices in place that allow people to allow us to, you know, to manage the fatigue and the fear that are the culprits that just pull that passion in a way that doesn't allow us to breathe life and have that just exactly that switched on ability. And so I think that when you think about passion and perseverance, my hope is that you'll index a bit more on finding passion,

understanding what it's about for you, what it feels like for you, including the practices that support it and making sure that we really fight against fatigue and fear. And I don't mean fight like in a hostile way, but really be mindful of how those two concepts really zap, if you will, our ability to live with passion. Okay. There's another hidden layer here is that she has absolutely demonstrated mastery in the academic path. If you're interested in, you know, the path through world-leading organizations as an educational institution, she's figured it out. Her undergrad was at Harvard where she had studied advanced studies in neurobiology. And then, you know, she also went on to get her master's degree at Oxford in neuroscience.

And then she completed her PhD at the University of Penn. So if we just stop there, there's enough interest to say, well, what led or what leads somebody to the path of understanding richly to do the academic system on a world stage? And she used that as a opportunity to go deep into research about what was interesting to her and then to develop a character lab to give back. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. We first met up at the Seattle Seahawks when she came out to do a mutual exchange where we wanted to learn from her and she wanted to learn what we were doing. And when we sat down, it was just wonderful. It was really a wonderful exchange. And I'm pleased to be able to know her and to be able to celebrate her and her work. And so check out her book, Grit, the Power, Passion, and Perseverance. Check out Character Lab. And I hope that through

this conversation, you might instill some of the practices that help support grit. And you can move that message to other people as well. Okay. That being said, and I know I'm running long on an intro here, but I want to make sure that we capture something that I'm trying to do. Can you take a moment after this conversation with Angela and go to findingmastery.net slash survey and punch over there. And there's a quick survey. I want to work to understand who's listening. And it's this weird experience where I have these wonderful conversations with people that I'm interested in how they're doing themselves and engaging in the world and giving back. And then I'm talking into this microphone by myself and I have no idea

who's on the other side of it. I want to know you and I want to understand for two reasons. One is it's about that time to be able to switch on some sort of sales for this. And I'm not going to sell anything, but create an opportunity for people to sponsor the show. And they need to know who you are as well. So there's a rich interest. I want to know who you are and what you're about. And there's questions in there about you and lifestyle, as well as questions that you might want to ask listeners, I'm sorry, guests in the conversations. So please punch over there. Take a minute. I appreciate it. I appreciate everybody looking forward to see you and talking more on social and all the best to

you. Hope you have a great day and let's see on the other side. Okay. With that, let's jump right into the conversation with Angela Duckworth. Angela, welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm excited to have this conversation with you and jump right into your story and how you developed the concept of grit and what you've come on to understand lately. So welcome. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure. Yeah. Okay, cool. So last we saw each other, it was up at the Seahawks when we were fortunate enough to be graced with your presence. So I'm excited to see what has come from that. Great to talk to you, Yannick. That was not quite a year ago. Oh my goodness.

Yeah, time flies. Right. Okay, so where did you start becoming curious about GRID? What was it about your upbringing and your life that really led you to to dive into the concept and innovate this concept I have family I have a father particular who was let's say obsessed with accomplishment and you know in particular very very high accomplishment em you know, eminence. So even at the dinner table, we would end up talking about who the greatest contributors to humanity were, you know, in history.

Einstein or Newton, was it the founding fathers, writing the Declaration of Independence. From very early as a little girl, I was maybe led to an interest in achievement that was a little bit more pronounced than for other people. And then later on, when I was a young woman teaching in public schools, teaching math to kids going through middle school and then later in high school, it just, you know, as any teacher will tell you, it's really striking to see how differently kids in the same classroom will perform. I was curious, and not just curious, it mattered to me. I wanted my kids to do better. Most recently, I became a psychologist to study this topic more systematically. How old are we talking about at the dinner table?

Is this like 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, in that range? I will tell you that as early as I can remember, my dad never really spoke differently to any of his kids as he would to a colleague or a neighbor. So he just went to talk about whatever he wanted to talk about. So as early as I can remember, he would tell me what he thought about what makes for achievement in life. And what, okay, so I can imagine a lot of different conversations about the great thinkers of the world, and it was about achievement. It was about what they achieved, not the process that went into how they came to understand their theories and their experiences in the world. Yeah, well, one thing I'll say is that it was about achievement.

It wasn't about how good they were, about how kind they were or nice they were. So there was definitely, because there's more to life than achievement, but just in these conversations, the other parts of life weren't brought up. And then in terms of whether it was more the outcome, like what they eventually achieved versus the process, that's a great question. I mean, I would say that my dad was particularly interested in the outcome, but we did talk a little bit about the process. I think like most people, my dad had huge insight into the process.

I think it's easy to see the outcome and to marvel at it. I think understanding the process by which greatness comes about is quite challenging for everyone, including me. Yeah, I would agree. I think that's the nature of this conversation with you and I, is that you've come to understand something at the deepest level of grit as the you know forebearer of that concept and I think I have that right maybe I know that there was an ancestry and lineage of thinking that you you know were standing on the shoulders from as far back as Darwin and Darwin's I think cousin maybe know, that some of that work, but can you unpack maybe some of where that came from? And let me, let me pause for just a moment,

because what I'm, what I'm pulling on is that there was an early conversation that was consistent around the family dinner table or, or whatever meals that you're, you're with your family. And there was a concept of achievement that was important. And then pull on the thread of how you first came to value grit. Yeah, I would say that the time in my life where I really started to see what I consider to be the two complementary parts of written passion and also perseverance. I think I can take that back to my first years of graduate school when I started to think about this a little more systematically, read the research literature, going back to the

very earliest studies that were conducted in the 19th century even. And then also to interview people. It just seems like a common sense thing to do is to talk to people who are really great at what they did and to figure out what can you say about these people? What makes them different? And it was from those experiences as a budding academic I guess like really the very beginning of my training that these two themes emerged so if you go back to 1869 I think that's really the date of the very first scientific study on achievement by Sir Francis Galton in the United

Kingdom and then his half-cousin Charles Darwin and he debated the topic a bit. Of course, Darwin's a little better known to a wider audience. And in that very early work, Galton made the claim that it wasn't just talent, but also two other things, which he called zeal and the capacity for very hard labor. Sort of like 19th century century terms of, you know, but Darwin for his part thought that he absolutely agreed that zeal and hard labor, I would say passion and perseverance in substitute for those words, that those were obviously important. And that maybe Dalton had a novel point in testing the talent, could

have some small role, which is interesting because fast forward to, of course, contemporary times where people use the word talent every other sentence to try to understand the origins of high achievement. So I was reading the research literature going all the way back to, again, the earliest that I could date the scientific research on this. But then to turn to those interviews, you know, when you ask people who are really high-tubers to talk about themselves, you don't get much because it's very hard to talk about yourself. We're all, I think, for good reason, built to be or trained to be somewhat humble. But if you ask people who are great to talk about other people who are great,

then the words begin to flow. And I think these two themes of a kind of a dogged tenacity and a willingness to work hard, absolutely. I agree that with Galton's earliest observation that that seems to be signature to super high achievers. But then also another kind of consistency. I mean, I'm really abiding love for what you do, a passion that is enduring, a kind of, you know, I get up in the morning and I think about this.

I go to bed at night thinking about this and I'm not bored of it. Like I'm not ever bored of it, that kind of passion. These two things emerged and that's what I call grit. Okay, perfect. passion, these two things emerged and that's what I call grit. Okay perfect and did Galton also talk about hard labor and self-denial, I'm sorry not hard labor but in addition to hard labor and zeal, did he talk about the value of self-denial or you know? Yeah. Was he also part of that? Yeah. He did. He did. I mean, he did in an early paragraph in his book on achievement. He says, well, what about, you know, what about the hourly temptations? That's how he put it. What about self-denial, right?

And, you know, and then he said, you know, all of us have to sort of do battle with things that, you know, we'd rather do in the moment. But then, you know, we sort of have this other thing that we know is better for us. And that is what we would call today self-control or some might call it self-discipline. And he said, you know, this may be true that the more typical among us need self-denial to kind of get through the day and to function well, but this is not the signature characteristic of super high achievers. In other words, you want it to distinguish you know run-of-the-mill self-control over temptations like you know eating tomato chips or whatever the modern day things are that we struggle with you know social media and so forth. You want to distinguish between that and what I'm calling grit. And we also find in our data that you can separate self-control

which is indeed important for things like staying on your diet or studying and so forth from this characteristic of achievement under really high challenge and and even you know as recently as last week I'm learning every day you know there was a neuroscientist person visiting from Sweden, and he even finds in his data different brain regions associated with self-control on the one hand and grit on the other. Okay, so that's really cool. What regions are active during the expression of grit, which I would imagine is, go back to your working definition, is that there's a particular cadence or regions

that are active when somebody is demonstrating or experiencing passion, zeal, if you will, and sticking with something and doing something that's difficult. What regions come alive? Yeah, and again, I'll say this is not my data, but another scientist, and he would say that, or in his presentation, areas of the basal ganglia, actually, that are associated with motivation and drive, goal striving, that, for example, in rats, when you lesion this area, you know, they no longer try very hard to do things like climb over a wall so that they can get the rat shell that is slightly tastier.

If you don't leech in that part of the brain, they're happy to climb over the wall and strive, themselves out there, exertion-wise. But if you do leech in this area, they stop doing that. So that area, as opposed to for self-control, it's more these top-down executive function areas that have been well known to be the seat of inhibitory control and controlling attention and impulses. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life.

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all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Okay, so if it's passion and perseverance for long-term goals, I think about the training. I think about,

thank you for adding this literature and the body of work to the field. You know, it's been a shift in deepening the thoughts about the value of the inner experience towards mastery, towards achievement, towards excellence. I think for me, achievement and mastery are almost like toggles, you know, like they're related. However, like the path of mastery feels very different than the path of achievement. However, grit seems to slice across both of those. And so thank you for adding and deepening

the concept and even innovating the importance of this language. It's a wonderful gift you've given the field. How do you, I'm curious because I think language it's a wonderful gift you've? Yeah, cool. That was my question for you. I'll answer second. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Okay. So let's start with achievement first. So achievement for me is the demonstration of an advance in performance. And so when somebody achieves something, there's a noticeable outcome or an inner experience where they've advanced and i personally like the word progression more than achievement but achievement is also also if you popular in the sense that he or she achieved a certain amount of money or a certain amount of fame or a certain outcome that they were looking towards.

So for me, achievement is more tangible than internal, and it's something that often others can recognize. And while that is second cousins to the concept of mastery, mastery for me is more of a path, and it is about progression, and it is about staying the long game towards a deep understanding of the nuances of both self and craft and so there i think the the difference between the two is the orientation of the requirement for outcome. So mastery, like outcome is a, is a second hand experience. What did I just say? Yeah. For Matt, for people on the path of mastery outcome happens as a second expression. And for those that are orientated towards achievement outcome is the primary, um, primary goal. And so those are two of the ways that I try to articulate or understand the

separation of nuances between the two. So mastery, again, simply mastery is the exploration of nuances in craft and self and outcome and achievement are secondary expression of mastery. Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, I don't use the term mastery a lot. I've, I think in a way, we all remember vaguely being in math or physics class where we learned distance equals rate times time. I think in a way, you can use that as a metaphor. It's like we want to be accomplished or to achieve something. It's to go somewhere from where we were to where we want to be. Then I think you can actually use the rate times time part to now try to understand um you know what gets us there well that's how fast you're getting there and then

there's so much time you're willing to put in but uh mastery interestingly i get me for you it has a more emphasis on the process then right and it seems like to me to require some amount of maybe consciousness or something it feels a little more light right like you can achieve or accomplish things without even kind of thinking about it in a sense but like mastery feels to me uh like at the way you're defining it as requiring some amount of like self-knowledge um yeah yeah certainly I don't think for me, at least mastery. No, let me say this more simply. Mastery for me is not about a there. And there is no, there is no destination other than one, the one that is internal. And it's the knowing and the insight and the expression of the knowing and the insight. And that is, that is the capture of mastery if there's such a thing. And so there's not – achievement does happen, and I think it's just an orientation on the pivot.

And what's really funny, it's juxtaposed in the world that both you and I live in, especially in the world of world-class sport, is that if we don't get an achievement and an outcome, we're asked not to come back. And that's from the head coach you know it's a star athlete if they can't create a sustainable outcome there's not a contract waiting for them and so it's really becomes a deep challenge to work to pivot people towards moving beyond what I think just the need for achievement and helping them find the process that they can, that has insight, that has meaning, and that is reproducible under any circumstances, whether it's a calm environment or hostile environment. And those are the marks of masters.

Yeah, it's interesting because I think we both have, you know, great respect for people like Pete Carroll. I mean, you know, if you talk to, I think, the greatest athletes and the greatest coaches, ever-striving quest for mastery, a journey that never ends. It's less about the score and more about your growth as a performer, as an athlete. I think coaches even think of themselves this way, right, because they're also performing and they're also growing. So there is this like tension. You know, it would be great to have as a guest on a future show, Josh Waitzkin, who some of your listeners might remember the movie Searching for Bobby Fischer.

And he's the chess prodigy who grew up to be actually, unlike most prodigies, an actual chess expert, world champion chess player, and then repurposed himself two more times to become world champion in two different martial arts. So I think he considers himself to be kind of an expert learner. And I think he would really have a lot to say here, because for him's it's much more about mastery than any outward achievement yeah um josh and i just were texting just the other day um i've appreciated his work and it sounds like you have as well and he's he's got this unique perspective that he's done it he's been in the trenches and he also thinks deeply about um the mechanics that have preceded the outcome and it's those

mechanics and the spaces between the frames that he and I both have a similar appreciation. I think he calls it about the transitions and I call it the space between and it's the space between notes that is where mastery is expressed for artists and it's the space between movements where master is expressed for Athens and so he calls it the transitions and so we have a real cool kind of we tripped upon each other's appreciation of that concept accidentally and so yeah is he featured in your new book you know I started talking to him um in earnest after the inquisitor i unfortunately on the book so uh regrettably no but um you know i'm just a uh like a huge admirer and i love his book

actually i mean he wrote a fantastic book about like the process of learning um and i think there is so much um interesting so for him you know because he did something chess is an intellectual pursuit but then he then transitioned to like martial arts, which is obviously physical as well as mental. But, you know, to see what was common across those. And I think that's in a way very much what I'm trying to do in my work is to study people who are, you know, world class. For example, you know, playing the viola and asking the question, like, what does that person have in common with like, you know, a world-class chef? And just last weekend, I was spending time with exactly that combination. So Roberto Diaz, who is, you know, one of the great violists in the world, and also the head of Curtis, the most selective music school in the country, probably the world as well, much more selective than Juilliard,

for example. And then the same day, sort of, you know, spent time with Mark Fetcher, who's, you know, award-winning chef here. And I think to talk about these commonalities, I mean, just to pick up on what you just said, you know, Diaz was giving us a music lesson, and he was explaining how it's these transitions, you know, the shape of the transition between notes, which, you know, I even struggle as a non-musician to even appreciate what the heck he's talking about. How similar that is to, for example, when a chef is talking about like flavor and like and, you know, bringing shape to a dish. And, you know, I think that there's so much that's in common, even that there's superficial differences when you look at excellence across fields. Yeah. Angela, I'd say at the same time that that is the space you're trending in,

not to confuse the space between with the space. Because, you know, for if I could be so presumptuous this what you're working on is the space between concepts and the space between the words that shape the understanding or the revelation of what you what you've come to understand as the center or the surrounding ideas to the center of the concept and so the words that you choose and the timing and the space between them for impact and shared insight is is the same space that people that artists are working for between notes and it's like it seems really esoteric and it's the nuances that are expressed in the space between and it's not until you spent so much freaking time in the trenches with the concepts or the or food or notes that nuances make any kind of sense. And that's where grit for me is so valuable. you is if grit is doing things over the long haul, how do we know when we need to stop?

It's a terrific question and one I've asked myself because I've personally known people who didn't quit early enough. So, you know, what do you say about, for example, sunk cost fallacy? This is the well-studied cognitive bias that gets you into trouble when you persist in, you know, investing good money after bad or, you know, trying to make a certain solution fit when it, like, just won't solve the problem. I think that's an obvious question to ask about grit and whether it could get you into a fix if you will and here's what i'd say like first i'll say that um it surely is possible to persist too long um in a given direction um but i think there's two other things i'd like to say like one is that if you ask the question, like, look at most kids or most grownups, right? You know, and you say, you know, how often do you think people give up too early?

And how often do you think people give up too late? I think more often people give up too early. You know, they have a couple bad days. You know, they have a couple bad games. They have a couple bad coaches. And, you know, they just sort of like count themselves out. They look to their left, they look to their right, they see somebody who's doing better than them, and like, oh, you know what, I'm out. I see that all the time. And I think it's more common to give up too early. The second thing I'll say is that really the trick about grit is to identify a goal at the right level about which to be so stubborn.

So our common friend Pete Carroll would say, what's your life philosophy? Now tell me in 25 words or less. That kind of overriding, typically very abstract goal, which when I read that, he had written about that, and you guys have both talked about this at length, I thought, well, what is mine? And I tried to write it down. It is hard to get it down to fewer than 25 words, but I got it down to use psychological science to help kids thrive. It did a lot less than 25 words, I should say.

And, you know, at that level of abstraction, at that kind of like over, that is the goal that guides every other goal that I have, including talking to you. I'm like, well, what can I get out of talking to Michael Gervais that would help me use psychological science to help kids thrive. There's nothing that I can imagine that would, you know, deter me from that goal. And that would make me give it up for another goal. But if I'm talking about like a low level, specific, concrete to do list kind of goal, like, make sure that I get that one particular journal article into that one particular journal. And I'm you know mule ish Lee stubborn about that low-level goal then that that can get me into trouble so I think the Sun cost policy often has to do with pursuing kind of very short-term tactical goals but less about the kind of the bigger picture beautiful and then so if we take a look at the word passion and

perseverance or those two words which do you think is harder i have a i have a thought and you know i'd love for you to go first yeah this time i'll go first because i made you go first the last time so that's only fair um i think passion's harder you know and i think people might imagine that perseverance would be harder because that's the part about effort and so forth. But when I look at scores on the grit scale, there are two, you get two sub scores if you choose to score it that way. And one is your perseverance score, that's half the items, and the other is your passion score. And reliably, people score higher on perseverance than they do on passion. And why would that be? You know, I think I think for a lot of it's not that hard work

is easy it's not that resilience and kind of like you know staying at things uh even when when you're disappointed by by your progress or you know your setbacks it's not that that's easy but I think it's also um at least as hard to stay interested in the same things right I mean to have passion the way that I mean it needs to to get bored, to develop an ever-deepening curiosity about the same thing as opposed to kind of clicking into some other link that is a completely different video or different page, metaphorically. So I think for a lot of us, staying focused on a goal and learning to get into it as opposed to sort of giving it up and doing something else I think that can be really hard for people yeah okay so of those two that I agree that it it's passion and not agree but I would say the same thing that it's passion perseverance

like doing the difficult and boring thing for an extended period of time is mechanical like if you just put your head down for most people what I've well maybe it's most people I'm exposed to, you know, which is actually a good important bias is most people I'm exposed to are already on the world stage. So they know how to put their head down and they know how to do the difficult and boring for an extended period of time. And I see it's the passion that is challenging. And this is why I wanted to ask you about passion. I think I have, um, you know, you know, from a broad stroke identified two factors that get in the way of passion. And then the other is, you know, when we look at passion is, do you think that it is

that people are passionate about the experience? No, let me say this differently. They're passionate about the thing that they do or the way that they feel when they do things. And it's a completely different vector, right? Like, and so I can talk about it where I'd love for you to talk about like what comes up when I asked that question. Yeah, really fantastic to think about. Do I feel passionate about the thing, like in some sense, like the overall, or like while I'm doing it? Is that sort of where you're going with that question?

Yeah, so let me see if I can sharpen a little bit. Is that it's easy for people to think that, okay, well, like you're passionate about surfing. Of course you do anything to go surf or you're passionate about performance psychology. You do anything, you know, like that's what you're passionate about and how fortunate for you. I don't think it's either of those. I think that it's actually the experience that, that come, the inner experience that comes when I'm in a challenging situation. And that's what I love. That's the thing that I'm most passionate about is figuring out how the inner experience works during an environment that is challenging, whether that is a conversation with an eminent

scholar, such as yourself, or, you know, some, some sort of heavy situation in the ocean and both of those require an onness and an appointedness in cognition and and not in this conversation it's no physicality but in sport there's the there tends to be both so i'm the thing that i'm trying to articulate more crisply is is it the inner experience that comes from said craft like guitar or parenting or teaching? Or is it the act or is it the craft itself that stimulates the passion? I'm just trying to get the order, the way you understand the order. Yeah. You know, I think it's, I think, here's what I think.

I think that, you know, flow, right, like moments you're so into what you're doing, you're no longer thinking of yourself, you're just doing. Complete control and a sense that the challenges are high, which they are, but also a sense that you can manage them just barely. I think that those moments of flow are, for a lot of performers, what they're chasing. I mean, it's uh supposedly according to some i mean not supposedly but according to some people it is like truly the optimal experience like more euphoric than anything else that they would experience and

actually quite rare when you look at high performers and you say well well like okay so is this an eight hour a day thing you know know, like, no, I mean, it's moments of flow and it's even unpredictable, right? So even concert pianists or composers, I would just say like, you know, symphony conductors might say that like, they don't even regularly experience flow. It's not that every performance brings flow, but only some of them. I think for some people, that's what drives them. That's, that's the source of passion, right? But I don't know that that's true for, I don't think that's the complete picture. Because I think that for a lot of people, it's not the experience of

that in the moment, those rare moments. I think for some people, it is, you know, the purpose of what they do a lot of people that I've interviewed who are for example not athletes but also athletes but I'll just say that it's the purpose the significance

of what they're doing, they feel like they have a calling they feel like their work matters to somebody other than themselves and that they're kind of doing something that's greater than themselves. I think that's less about the experience in the moment. So those would be like two reasons to think. I mean, well, I'll just say like that.

That's in part why I say that it's incomplete to just talk about the online experience itself. And online meaning the immersed experience. Yeah, in the moment. Yeah, to say better to say in the immersed experience. Yeah, in the moment. Yeah, to say better to say in the moment experience itself. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day.

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slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's Caldera Lab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash FindingMastery. Yeah. And there are stages of flow. There's like incremental stages of flow, if you will, where there's full absorption and then there's light flow, which is like, it's pretty good. And then there's like full blown full, full blown flow where it's like, Whoa, what just happened in time? You know? And so there, there is just a, just a toggle thought just a little bit, but that's really interesting.

I think, by the way, I think, you know, a hell of a lot more about flow than I do. I would, I would just sit here and listen. That being said, how often do you get into flow? I get into flow occasionally when I give talks. So I would say like one out of, you know, like eight talks that I give. I feel like I achieve moments of flow, maybe not for the whole talk, but for, you know, some fraction of it. And then maybe more rarely when I'm writing, I might have a little bit of flow, but that's even more rare because mostly when I'm writing, I just feel like a really, really, really great high-level conversation, often with another academic about a topic that we both find really interesting.

Then maybe again, very rarely, but it does happen. You mean like this one? For example. No, seriously though, we both have busy schedules. If you don't look at your clock right now, would you have any guess on how long we've been speaking? Um, you know, I think that if I were not so trained as a speaker to always have a clock on my, like, I know in flow, you're supposed to sort of like have this distortion of time. But for me, part of being a speaker or a performer is to have a clock because if they say 42 minutes, then you damn well better finish

at 42 minutes. If they say 16 minutes, you finish at 16. So for that reason, I think that we're probably like, you know, I have, I have a sense of where we are, but otherwise, um, no, like if we were just, if you just called me, you know what I mean? Like you just called me and we're like, Hey, let's talk. Then I don't think I would. I love it. So political. Okay. So is there, is there a phrase that guides your life? One phrase or, or even if you could slice it down to one word? Well, I gave you my life philosophy, right? I gave you my professional goal, so that was not a lot of words. If you ask me to slice it down to one word, you know I couldn't, but I good excuse i have a good excuse for why i can't um uh do you want to hear my excuse yeah uh sure not really but yeah go for it you're like no i can't i mean if you really made me i guess i could say character right like

i actually think that um for me you know character defines um um what I'm trying to achieve personally. And also, you know, what I study as a scientist. It's what I tried to teach my kids when I was a when I was a classroom teacher. But the reason I didn't want to leave it at one word is that I think character is really plural. I mean, I think there are things like grit and self-control, which we've already discussed, and they're very relevant to achievement of, you know, different kinds. And that's what I've devoted myself to. But I think there's two other aspects of character, and that's why I wanted to ask you for three words, not one. You know, there is a second aspect of character, and I think every athlete will resonate with this, and non-athletes as well, which is, you know, what about other people?

So some people call this moral character or interpersonal character, but this is like kindness and honesty, generosity, empathy. I mean, I think every athlete knows that they're not just performing for themselves. They're performing for their team, for their coach, for their family, for the sport. So these other oriented aspects of character are really important. I think they're related, but they can be distinguished from things like grit and self-control. And then the third, which again, I think any listener, no matter whether they're an athlete or not, will resonate with are the aspects of character that are about the mind, you know, being imaginative, being creative, being open to new ideas, being somebody who just enjoys learning.

So I think of character as having three parts, you know, there's achievement, but there's also how you treat other people. And then there's having a fertile life of the mind. All right. Good thing we didn't limit it to one word. Right? That's why you need three. Yeah. Okay, good. All right, so is it one word with three components? Well, where I got to the three in part was that when you give kids questionnaires, or this is true for other people like adults,

and you give questions about lots of good things that you could be, right, lots of good virtues, we find that in our data you get these three clusters that kind of go along the three, you know, I sometimes call them, like, you know, strengths of will, strengths of heart, and strengths of mind, right? Like you can call it what you want. But we find that the data kind of clusters so that these things kind of go together. And it's not just our data, it's other scientists, and even philosophers have, you know, proposed that these are, you know, that there's at least three kinds of characters. So I don't think that everybody would agree. But I think that it's a pretty defensible way of thinking about character. And if you,

if you ask yourself, like, well, what do I want my kids to grow up to be like? Or what do I want the kids on my team to be like? Or what do I want to be like? I don't know. It's a pretty effective checklist, right? You know, like, I want to be somebody who is effective at reaching my goals. So therefore, I need grit and self-control and so forth. I want to be the sort of person who's a good person to other people. Okay, well, that's empathy, emotional intelligence, honesty, generosity, I have a life of the mind that is free and fertile. And that's, you know, creativity, curiosity, and so forth. So for me, it feels like useful, in addition to being validated by the data. Okay, I love it. Is there a word that you use to describe what you understand the most? And again, it doesn't need to be one word because if I limit you I know that that's problem But like is there just one phrase or word of what you understand the most of your? X number XX number of years that you've been alive and contributing via science to the well-being of children and others

There is one word of the thing that I understand the most I Mean, I think that I understand the most. I mean, I think I understand grit the most. Yeah, that's what I figured. Right? Like you, I'm a specialist, so I've been studying more or less one thing. I also study self-control. But if you ask me how much do I think about grit, I am never not thinking about grit.

I was sitting with an author yesterday who's a dear friend of mine. And she says, when I was working on this last project, and she points to her occipital part of her brain and the back part of her brain. And she says, when I'm writing, it's always in the back of my mind, whether I'm eating, whether I'm at the beach, whether I'm in conversation, it's always churning. What part of this conversation or this sunset is relevant to the project I'm working on? Is that similar to you? Or do you toggle from, um, being putting your feet in the sand and it's, that's just what you're doing. And in your, when you're in a conversation, you're just in the conversation. You know, I think to a very great extent, it's really like always there, always in the back of my mind. I think that's what is true also about like the great individuals that I study.

You know, it's not like you kind of like turn it on at 9 o'clock and turn it off at 5 o'clock. It's, you know, perennially and constantly interesting. There's this really great piece of journalistic work by Studs Terkel. Now this is decades ago where he interviewed, I think, more than 100 Americans of all different stripes, like cab drivers and doctors and everything you can imagine. And in the foreword to his book book he talks about how during this project um he uh was just watching a movie with his wife and the his wife was commenting on the acting

applaud and then and for him he was like watching the whole movie as like understanding the actor and like what it meant to be an actor and how does an actor relate to his work and i think for me it's just exactly like that. I, you know, go to Starbucks and, you know, if the barista is really efficient, I think, gee, I wonder why that barista, like, do they love what they do? Like, I wonder how this fits into the rest of what they do. Like, and, and it's not, it's not for me a burden either. I'll just say this, like, it sounds like a maybe unhealthy obsession. But for me, like everything that I experience has meaning and relevance. You know, like I am the opposite of bored because everything to me

kind of comes back to like how it informs this quest that I have to understand passion and perseverance. Okay. And in your life journey, like you've been dedicated to this, and I don't know much about your family life. And I know that your dad talked about achievement a lot at a young age. Has there been a cost to you or has there been the dark side, if you will, of a single-minded specialist approach to understand something really rich and to advance the knowledge of both science and storytelling for what allows people to experience excellence. I wonder if there's been a cost. I mean, there's been obviously an opportunity cost, right?

In other words, like there were things, you know, at one point I wanted to be a doctor. I, you know, quote unquote gave that point I wanted to be a doctor um and I you know quote unquote gave that up in order to become a psychologist because I quickly figured out that you can't uh really be both um I I also gave up um at one point I wanted to own a restaurant um like really like cooking and food I'm you know really not a very good cook anymore because I hardly cook um I gave that up, right? Because I can't, I didn't want to be mediocre or two things. I wanted to be excellent at one or was willing to give up, you know, the two so that I could become excellent at one. So that's one kind of

cost, right? There have been opportunity costs, like the road not traveled, right? The road not taken is always the thing that you give up in order to stay on the path that you are. The other cost, though, might be to my family. I mean, I'm really a hardworking person. And I have two kids and a husband. And I have a small number of friends. And I think I would spend more time with them in a kind of relaxed, sort of frivolous way. Or just, you know, I think there is a cost there um I've asked my kids

about you know whether they feel like uh you know they wish things were otherwise and you know they're only 12 and 14 so they're they kind of just like look at me like I'm an idiot which is usually how the 12 and 14 year olds in our lives look at us um but uh but you know like I don't know if they have any other reference they have no other mom but um I think for for, you know, like, I don't know if they have any other reference. They have no other mom, but I think for, for them, you know, it's kind of for me, like I have, well, they would say this, I think they would say like, it's just who I am. Like, they're like, they're like, what do you mean? Like, that's just who you are. And I feel like, you know, it's,

I don't know if it's work life balance or something else, but I guess, you know, for me, my work is just sort of integrated with my family. You know, like I don't just sort of like think about work when I'm at work and then I come home, like it's, you know, it's part of our conversations and, um, and so it's like the boundary between, um, uh, my kind of personal life and my professional life is not as clear as it might be, I guess, for other people. And so you're surrounded by people that also think a lot and research deeply. So is there a loneliness to the depth in the dive that you're taking, or do you feel like you're part of a tribe of researchers and thinkers?

I do feel like I'm part of a tribe of researchers and thinkers. And I think they're not just academics, though. You know what I mean? If you ask me, like, well, who's taught me more about grit than anybody else? I mean, I might say Pete Carroll's taught me more about grit than anybody else. He's, you know, he's not a professor at a university. I mean, I find that when I talk to people who have insights about human nature, I feel like I'm talking to somebody in my tribe. But, you know, just as often as not, they're actually not researchers.

Yeah. It's like when you're open to learning, there's teachers everywhere. When I first got into the field, one of my mentors said to me, everything you need to figure out in life is either going to happen inside you or in the chair sitting next to you. So pay attention to both. I said, okay, cool. That is great. I'm going to remember that. Yeah, that's good. He didn't have appreciation for nature, but between the three, between nature, the chair beside you, or something inside yourself, that seems to make sense. Okay. me get let me ask a couple quick hits here are you more street savvy or more analytical

I am more analytical okay so when you go to a party is it like is it difficult for you to pick up the vibe around the party or like street savvy like you know yeah I do like a taxi cab sort of like like, well, I'll say this. I think that I have been since a since a fairly early age, very perceptive about emotions and about, you know, people psychology, right? It's not a coincidence that I became a psychologist. So I have no problem going to a party, I think, you know, I could be wrong. Tell me if I'm like, next time we're at a party I think I could be wrong tell me if I'm like next time we're to party together but like I think I have a pretty good read of how people are feeling and what they're thinking yeah so that goes back to some of the readings that I've read from you it's like EQ and grit and grit being a higher predictor of success than EQ does that still hold true for you well you know I would say this it depends on for what you're measuring, like the outcome. If you're looking at sales, EQ is very, very important, being a salesperson.

In that domain, I'm not going to say that grit would matter more. I would say this. The reason why I study grit and I don't study emotional intelligence is because I'm interested in what's common across all achievers in predicting their achievement. And EQ, if you're going to be a solitary, there are things like stamp collector or painter where you don't have to actually be pop-knobbing or reading people's emotions at all and therefore it's specific to some domains and but grit seems to be common to all of them so i think it's in that sense like ubiquitously important and that's what makes grit so interesting to me but um but i actually thought about studying eq um michael like when i was in third grade and moved across town from sort of like the, you know, the, from one part of town to the other, right, from west to east. And I had a new elementary

school and it was the middle of the year. And I remember thinking to myself, like, how do you make friends? And then I kind of figured it out to myself. I was like, oh, you have to do two things. You have to make them feel like you like them, but you also have to make them feel like you like yourself. And I was like, oh, okay. also have to make them feel like you like yourself. And I was like, oh, okay. And I tried it out, and it seemed to work. And I think that's a lot about emotional intelligence. So at one point, I actually considered studying that as a psychologist.

But again, because I was so interested in achievement and having low-achieving kids do better, which I feel like is possible for them in so many cases I decided to study great yeah very cool okay so I want to honor um our time commitment here but I also want to ask you um are you a risk taker or a rule follower I am both is that cheating can i say that like um i i am uh a rule follower in the sense that uh you know i like to come to meetings on time and i also believe that you know roles are um about respect a lot of time right it's like the reason why we have manners is that they are just a ritualized way of respecting and honoring other people so So, so I'm a rule follower in that sense. And I pay my taxes and, you know,

like, and like, but I am a risk taker in this sense. Like I do what I think is interesting and important. And I still give a shit about what people think. It's like, you know, Oh,

you shouldn't study that. Like, or you shouldn't, you know, that study seems like too high. I was like, I don't care. I'm going to do it.

Yeah. like that or you shouldn't you know that study seems like to hire it's like I don't care I'm gonna do it yeah and so that there's such freedom of as soon as you can figure out how to not care about others but you can still love others and and hold both of those true there's an incredible freedom so like I think a way to answer this question is if you had a chance to go to Mars and it was a 50 chance that you come back, and the opportunity was to go tonight. Would you go? The opportunity to go to Mars tonight? I'll say this. I don't really want to go to Mars, and I've got two kids, so no. But if you said this, right?

What if you have a 2% chance of learning something really important about grit that could help people, right? Like a 1% chance, a 0 a 2% chance of learning something really important about grit that could help people, right? Like a 1% chance, a 0.02% chance. Are you willing to bet the rest of your life on that? Then I would say, yeah, and I already am. How are you doing that? Working on research studies and, you know, this is what I do. Here's my process.

I talk to people like you. I talk to coaches. I talk to athletes. I talk to coaches. I talk to athletes. I talk to CEOs. I talk to anybody who will talk to me about grit, right, give me some insight into it. Then I, you know, stay up late and I get up early and I think about it and I write about it in my journal and I, like, think about it in the shower. And, like, that's where my hypotheses come from, right? Like, you know what?

I think if you, you know, get people to mentor other people, that will make the mentor grittier, right? Like that's like a kind of idea. And then I go and like do research studies, right? You know, with a random assignment and measurement and all the things, your statistics and data and all that. Um, and then I publish it and then I, uh, and then I come back and talk to people like you again, because I feel like, um, without, you know, communicating those findings to a broader audience And in a way the kind of the findings are dead so like that's my process That's what I'm gonna do like until I don't have any more days left on the planet. Yeah, I love it. Okay. I feel like we're Absolutely kindred spirits in that path because that's what I'm trying to that it's that's almost my identical

path as well, is that I consume as much as I can, both from within and outside. And then I have an idea and then I validate or cross-reference or see if that idea makes any kind of sense with people that I trust and respect and that really are on a path. And it's why this conversation is a joy and the conversations on this podcast have been a joy. Okay. That being said, where can we find more of your work? If we're wrapping this up, where can we find, he's got a book coming. What's the title? When does it come out? Like what, what talk, tell us about what's coming next. My book is called grit, the power of passion and and perseverance and it is out on May 3rd

Thank you for asking and I guess you would like more information. You can go to my website, which is just Angela Duckworth calm Perfect. Okay, and then are you on social media? I Am very recently. I'm like so bad at it. I have on Twitter now and also on Facebook okay I'll find you there what is your handle? I think my Twitter handle is like AngelaDuckW I think all the duck words were taken

so AngelaDuckW like the beginning of my name and then to be honest I don't know this is why I'm new I don't know I'm on Facebook

but I yeah maybe I'll send you the link because I don't know I don't know what it's called. There's a whole world out there. Send the link and we'll get it up for you. And then in your words, last question, how do you define or articulate mastery?

I articulate mastery as maybe an ongoing struggle to get better at what you care about than you were yesterday. Beautiful. Angela, have a great day. Thanks so much. It's been a pleasure knowing you. It's been a pleasure on this conversation. And thank you again for adding to the body of knowledge that are helping people become great. So thank you. Thank you. I look forward to keeping this conversation going in some way, shape or form. Yeah, for sure. I'll talk to you soon. Take care, Angela. All right. Thank you, Michael.

Okay. Bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out

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