Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Are We Too Tame? How to Rediscover Your 'Wild' | Craig Foster, Director of 'My Octopus Teacher'

Episode Date: September 25, 2024

Today, we’re venturing deep into the wild with someone whose life’s work challenges us to reconnect with the essence of nature and, in doing so, rediscover our own humanity.Our guest today is Craig Foster—a renowned filmmaker, photographer, and naturalist whose immersive experiences in the wild have captivated millions. Craig is perhaps best known for his groundbreaking documentary My Octopus Teacher, which not only won an Academy Award but also sparked a global conversation about our relationship with the natural world. I watched this movie with my son – we were gripped, we shared tears together, and I immediately reached out wanting to meet him. In our conversation, we dive into Craig’s profound journey through The Great African Sea Forest, exploring the intricate balance between ‘the wild’ and ‘the tame’ in our lives. Craig shares his insights on the importance of embracing the wisdom of indigenous traditions, the detrimental effects of our modern, tech-heavy existence, and how shifting our mindset from infinite capitalism to a regenerative relationship with nature can lead to a more meaningful life.We also explore the transformative power of connecting with even the smallest aspects of nature and how these connections can reignite our sense of belonging in this world._________________Resources:My Octopus Teacher (Oscar-winning film; available on Netflix)https://www.netflix.com/title/81045007Amphibious Soul: Finding the WIld in a Tame World (Craig’s New Book)https://seachangeproject.com/projects/books/amphibious-soul/Sea Change Project (donate to support global biodiversity)https://seachangeproject.com/_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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of belonging to this planet. In every one of us, there's this wild person and then the tame person, the balance is so unbalanced. And that wild person that's inside all of us, that's desperate to come out, is being smothered by that tame person. It's a beautiful experience, and it's quite simple. You just have to spend the time and have the curiosity. Welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. In today's

conversation, we venture deep into the wild with a guest whose life's work challenges us to reconnect with the essence of nature, and in doing so, rediscover our own humanity. Our guest is Craig Foster, a renowned filmmaker, photographer, and naturalist whose immersive experiences in the wild have captivated millions. Craig is perhaps best known for his groundbreaking documentary, My Octopus Teacher, which not only won an Academy Award, but has also sparked a global conversation about our relationship with the natural world. I watched this movie with my son. We were gripped. It is such a good movie. It forces you to really examine how you go through your relationships, not only with yourself,

with others, but with Mother Nature as well. We shared tears together in the movie. And when there's moments like that, you know that there's something very powerful, almost primitive that's taking place. So I immediately reached out and I wanted to meet him. In our conversation, we dive into Craig's profound journey through the great African sea forest, exploring the intricate balance between the wild and the tame in our own lives. Craig shares his insights on the importance of embracing the wisdom of indigenous traditions, the detrimental effects of our modern tech-heavy existence, and how shifting our mindset from infinite capitalism to a regenerative relationship with nature, can lead to a more meaningful life. We also explore the transformative power of connecting with even the smallest aspects

of nature and how these connections can reignite our sense of belonging in this world. So with that, let's dive right into this week's conversation with the incredible Craig Foster. Craig, this is a real treat for me to have this conversation with you. I sat with my son and watched your movie, and it was just amazing. And so this is like, there's so many questions I have for you. But before we get into it, how are you doing? Really good. I'm back from a global tour back in my favorite place here with the great African sea forest right next to me. So I'm feeling really good and relaxed and really excited to speak to you. We cannot hide the South African accent that you are bringing forward here. No, I can't change that. Sorry.

You can't change it. It's so good. Good try. No, it is such a fun... There's just such a... When I hear the dialect and the accent, there's such a refinement in the way that South Africans, to me. And so I'm always got a keen ear to it. So thank you for not hiding it, I guess. Okay, Craig.

So you say I'm excited. When you say that, I don't hear, I'm excited. I hear, I'm excited. I hear, I'm excited. So, are you pretty flat as it goes? Is that kind of how you do life? Hold on, there's something to this. There's a lot of laughter underneath that. Tell me more about it. I guess South Africans are more laidback maybe than Americans. But I mean, you're from California, so it's not that different. But I've just been in the ocean for quite a while today. Of course, I've done a lot of other work and so on. And it's later in the day, it's my evening, so I feel relaxed. But I guess we have a different way of expressing things. I loved your laugh. I can't wait to hear it again, hopefully,

in this conversation. So let me just start with My Octopus Teacher, the documentary. You know, I don't want to spend too much time here because I'm so fascinated by how you've designed your life. And that documentary really, to me, that's the story under the story. And so before we get into your purpose and how you've designed it and your deep insights, and I know you've heard a lot of this so many times, but in 2020, like it's hard to believe it's already been four years when I watched your documentary, what an impact it had for me and my son. And he was driving me to watch it. And I was like, you know, interested, but I didn't know what to expect. And he was like, no dad, we got to watch it. We got to watch it. I just want to say thank you for that moment with

my son and for my whole family and congratulations on an amazing piece of work there. So, and for folks that haven't seen it, I highly want to encourage you to go watch it. But so, so first question here, 10 years to film it. The actual main filming process took a year with that incredible animal. But to get to that point took a very long time because just to get comfortable in the water takes three years. To learn how to track underwater takes another three or four years.

Then to start understanding cephalopods at a high level and to try and film that animal, you know, as a year, and then all the time after that editing and getting cut away. So, it's a long involved process. It's kind of a gray area exactly how long it took, but you could say 10 years of being in the ocean pretty much every single day culminated in that film. Three years to get comfortable in the ocean pretty much every single day culminated in that film. Three years to get comfortable in the water at that depth? Is that what you're referring to? No. So I'm not diving in this area too deep. It's about learning how to move your body.

So if you move your body in the wrong way, all the animals flee. You have to get just so used to that environment that you can focus on the tracking, which is very subtle. And you have to get used to the cold because I'm not diving with a wetsuit for a whole lot of different reasons. You've got to get used to the currents, the swells, and this intimate language. I mean, this oldest language on earth is tracking. It's not something that you learn quickly. You actually need a whole lifetime. But I was trying to speed it up as fast as I could and do the best I could. Okay. Before we go to how you built the relationship with the octopus, and please school me up on the right language here, all of us, on how to speak to it. I think it's an octopus, but you mentioned another more technical name. Can you define tracking? Tracking is like a language. It comes from the deep past. So I think it

predates our species. So our species is 300,000 years old, as you know. But I think Homo erectus, I think the early hominids were tracking as well. So this is a language that connects you to nature and allows you to survive that comes from our deepest past. Every single wild person that's lived on this planet can speak this language. So it's this universal understanding of pattern recognition that allows us to be able to see into the past and into the future, and allows us to communicate with nature. Whoa, okay. So, into the past, meaning you have a sense of where the animal has gone, and into the future, meaning what does that mean? So, you can sometimes predict from the tracks and what the animals left what it's going to do in the future. For instance, if an octopus has

made a kill, you know it's going to be resting up in its den for many, many hours, and it can just go on and on and on. So, if you know the behavior and you can see the tracks, then you can predict what's going to happen. And you can see all the kills that happened in the night. You can see the activity in the night. So, as you read the tracks, you're moving your mind across time. That's an eloquent way to think about it. And did you learn tracking on land from somebody, or did you learn tracking in the sea from somebody, or is this something that you, through deep observation, picked up on your own? So I was very fortunate in the late 90s to spend on and off for three years with my brother in the central Kalahari, working with some of the best trackers in the world,

the Kho and Gli Kwe, San master trackers. Oh, look what you just did. Do that again. Do that again. Do that again. Was that like Zulu? No, no. What did you just do?

So there are two language groups, the K'on, there's one language group, and the Gwekwe is another language group. So, the San or some people know them as Bushmen, have got a whole lot of language groups and they live mostly now in Botswana and Namibia, but a little bit in South Africa. And they've got the oldest lineage, the oldest blood lineage on this planet going back almost 120,000 years. So they've got these incredible traditions and tracking is a big part of many of their lives still, although there are fewer and fewer good trackers left. And I was just fortunate to work with some of these masters and was inspired by them and was amazed by their abilities. And we did a film called The Great Dance about them, and then we subsequently did another few films on different song groups.

What were you amazed by? I mean, I'll give you an example. You'll be sitting in camp in the middle of the central Kalahari, 100 kilometers from any road. And I'm with Nati, and he said, oh, there's a leopard moving over there. But he's referring to like one kilometer away, maybe more. And it's moving that way. It's so in his mind and body that he can't really explain why he knows that. So it feels at first like magic. But what's happening is the little birds are alarm calling one kilometer away. And he's listening to the rings of the birds alarming all along the way. And his ears are so tuned that he can feel that big predator moving a kilometer away. And I mean, my ears are not good enough to even pick up the sounds of the birds.

Because as it comes down the rows, like dropping a stone in the pool, these rings of audio, he can detect that incredible subtlety and feel that predator moving. What was his name again? Ngate. I don't know. It's N-Q-A-T-E. It's Nankabe, is his name, yeah. So he was a great mentor, yeah, and he could also just tell from a track… Sorry to interrupt. Oh, no, please. He could tell from a track so much about an animal. He could even feel certain animals in his body as if his body was like a radar system. So he'd feel a tingling in his chest if a lion was near, or he'd feel something in his back if there was a chemspork around. And this is something that I looked at. I mean, I didn't

believe at first, but then his accuracy was so high that you just start to believe it after you've been with him for a while. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms,

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So use the word mentor and then would you consider this mentor a true master of craft, or is this something that is pretty pedestrian, to mix a metaphor here, pretty ordinary for folks in that territory? That's a great question, because it's not normal in that group to be that good at tracking. So probably 5% of the song would be at that level of mastery. Yeah, it was super powerful to be in his presence and in the other two trackers' presence we worked with, but it was also very- Wait, wait, wait. Stay there. What does that mean, powerful to be in the presence of another person? I mean, when you're walking in the bush with them, and you are sensing things through what

they are seeing and telling you, it felt initially for me like I was feeling my original self, what I should be like. And I was going to say that it was very disturbing. It was extremely disturbing for me because I realized how useless I was. I'd spent so many years in the wild by that stage, and I thought I was connected to nature. And suddenly, just being with them, I realized I'm outside of the wild and they are inside. It was very disturbing and that's the motivation that started me on this path of trying to get inside of nature through the tracking. So to answer the rest of your question, I had nobody to teach me how to track underwater. They gave me that idea and I thought,

would it be possible? But it took like three years to find the first track. So it was a long, slow, interesting process. Before we go to how you did that and the insights you learned there, I'm struck like, it's like a lightning. No, it's not the right word. It was like something just washed over me when you said the uselessness that you felt. And what I felt instantly is a sadness and a disconnection from that tribal, that ancient part of us. And then you added the word useless. that tribal, that ancient part of us.

And then you added the word useless. I just don't want to run over that. There's something really, really, really deep in what you're saying that there's like a calling or an invitation to return. And you're way more in touch with it than I am. And so I just want to say thank you for that moment. The way that you chose your words, what you evoked in me, and maybe the listener as well, is like, I need, I know that's a big word for me,

but I need to be more connected to the essence of me, the essence of us. And so I don't want to be dramatic, but I just want to pause and be like, thank you. I really appreciate that. And I think you spot on, Mike, because what I finally sort of got some sense of through doing this tracking now for many, many years is how it's an extraordinary mechanism for that feeling of belonging. Because when you understand these animals and you understand this oldest language, it really gives you that feeling of belonging to this planet. And it was frightening for me to be with those people.

And I remember Kwasi, who's the bowhunter, another aspect that I think you'll appreciate, we'd be walking along and I mean, this was in the middle of summer. It's extremely hot. These thorns, it's thorn felt, you know, you're bleeding from going through all these thorns, you're falling in these mouse holes the whole time. It's not, physically it's very unpleasant. And then he just erupted in laughter from nowhere, for no apparent reason i've nobody had said anything and it was eventually i understood this idea of i don't know if you've heard of this term wilderness rapture

or primal joy it has been noticed by many um researchers that people living wild have this natural joy that just has to bubble out. Not to say that their lives were necessarily that great. It was quite tough and they've been through absolute hell as a group of people, much like many indigenous people have. But that primal joy was still present in Kwasi, less so in the others. And you'd feel it coming out. And that was very powerful as well, because I'd not had that experience myself. And as I've got closer to nature over these years, I sometimes feel a tiny bit of that. Not as much, but I feel that. I have a sense of it. Right before that, if I'm just listening for the space between, you talked about being afraid around them, like that sense of

awe, I think, is what you were talking about. And then you went to the rapture expression. Was there something inside of that that was frightening as well? Certainly, because you suddenly realize your potential as a human being, your design in wild nature, your 300,000 years of living wild, all those memories that are still sitting in the deep mind, in the wild mind. And then you are, you're like, you're not realizing even a tiny bit of your potential. And that was frightening for me to feel that. And at the same time, very exhilarating because it was like, oh my God, I'm getting a sense of what this wildlife was like, what it was like to be a hunter-gatherer, how powerful it was, but also how hard and difficult

it is. So it's not like that there's this romantic, wonderful, easy existence, but in that hardness and that discomfort and that power of being connected to these animals at such a deep level, you start to get actually your whole body starts to react. You know, that tingling you get at the back of your spine, it's that kind of stuff that starts to happen. And it is exciting and disturbing at once. People ask me, like I talk about a living masterpiece, that each day, every day is an opportunity for a living masterpiece. Beautiful.

Yeah, thank you. It is my guiding philosophy. And it gives me, it gives a lot of space to define or operationalize or conceptualize and imagine what a living masterpiece is. And I wish I could tell you exactly what it is, but it's a little bit of a wet canvas, a little bit like the deep ocean. It moves a little bit, but not a whole lot. But it is the intersection between experiencing in an artistic way, in an honest way, that edge that you just described. And that edge is, there's an aliveness with the excitement and the fear of not knowing how it's going to go. The fear of being connected to something so powerful that it could go a lot of different directions and an excitement

for what could be. And then artistically and skillfully being able to show up in that moment. And that's part of, those are the main components of a living masterpiece for me. And for me, it has to do with relationships. And what I hear you talking about here is your relationship with primal fears, your relationship with primal people. And I don't want to be disrespectful, so please, of course, correct me if I have it wrong. But when you, you've talked about befriending our primal fears. Can you open that idea up just a little bit more? yeah i mean i can tell you i think the best way is to kind of tell your story and then um see if that answers your question in any way i mean you probably i think you also grew up with

the movie jaws am i right that maybe i think it affected all of us at that time. With my brother, again, we did a film on sharks and we gradually got to dive with bigger and bigger sharks. And then we had this amazing opportunity to free dive with five great whites. Oh my goodness. We were very close to them. There was no cage involved. The water was clear. It was perfect conditions. And those animals in Jaws just seemed suddenly to transform into these magnificent, beautiful, very, very sensitive creatures. And they were quite wary of us in a way. And we spent this incredible time in the water with these animals. But what was interesting

is when we came out, I noticed that I could actually feel that part of my brain, which you probably know where it is, had suppressed all fears. So when I got into my car and tried to put my seatbelt on, which I usually usually did it was almost impossible to put it on because i had had no fear even of of a car accident it had like suppressed that you know it's amazing that you're saying that you probably haven't you would not know this i don't think but so i spent a lot of time over a decade working in adventure-based, high-risk action sport type of stuff. And some of it was back country, off territory, and some of it was just high risk in plain view. And the most dangerous window was not the lead up to the event where you're really

trying to figure out edges and capabilities, which is risky. There's a lot of risk in practice for these consequential experiences. It's the three-day glow after. So you go do something that no one has ever done. Yeah, I got it. Yeah. Right. And then, you know, there's the laugh again. I love it. It's the three days that we're always saying to like these folks, like, look, just, just decompress. Do not think that you are superhuman. Right. You just did something that was incredible. Do not get on the back of a motorcycle or drive a motorcycle, you know, inebriated, whatever, whatever. Like, like, so it's that glow. And I think that that's what you're talking about. back of a motorcycle or drive a motorcycle you know inebriated whatever whatever like like so it's that glow and i think that that's what you're talking about exactly exactly right it took me a couple of seconds to realize that's why i laughed i thought what you're talking about of course that when it's so suppressed and that's why fear is so useful it keeps us alive you know

and i'm sure you have the same thing as you've got older, you become much more wary and much more careful. And I've definitely had my nine lives. So I'm super careful now. But, you know, these primal fears are, I think, that's why we're scared of sharks and crocodiles and dark ocean, because that's part of our evolutionary memory of real fear. And we're less afraid of cars and trains and airplanes because they're new. But I'm actually, I think, I'm very careful driving in cars because I do, I have a, rationally I find those, you know, it's more dangerous driving down to the beach before diving with a great white, I feel. There's under, I'll be egregious here in a minute, there's under 200 deaths, I think,

the number is more like in the teens, global deaths from shark attacks. And there might be plenty unreported, I don't know, but even if we said under 500, and I think that that's a huge number. In what time period are you talking about in a in a year oh no it's far less than that i think it's far no i know i think it's like eight i think it's like eight or twelve yeah yeah yeah it's yeah i mean more likely to be killed by a toaster or something yeah yeah ditto i'm doubling down on the point. But let's say there was like a thousand X or even 500 X of the number

because it was unreported or whatever. It's incredibly small. Globally, this is incredibly small. And we are terrified. And I don't know if it's from JAWS. Let's go back full circle. Yes, that definitely was a trigger. But to your point,

the primordial fears, as I understand them, are darkness, heights, predators, dismemberment, isolation is one. And I think it doesn't make the traditional list, but I do think that something about the mind, there's a deep, deep fear to look within. And it's one of the reasons we don't do it. It's really scary to go and examine and search for it. Everything I just mentioned, darkness, heights, predators, dismemberment, death, isolation, all of that stuff is external, and it triggers an internal experience, which is what fear actually is. But you're talking about predators now, and let's kind of slide into the octopus.

How do you get in touch with the primal fears? Well, I mean, an octopus is very much a predator, but it's not a predator of humans. In the sea forest here, they're predating over 50 different species. So they're a master of figuring out how to kill and eat other creatures. And what's great about getting to know that animal is you have to get to know all its prey. And then, of course, it's got its predators as well,

not as many, but you get to know the whole ecosystem. But I'm not sure what you mean by the fear related to the octopus. Sorry. our primal fears, that mission, if you will, that you've articulated, might have been an outspring from your time with the cephalopod. Oh, yeah. Well, ironically for me, the real fear came when that film came out. Because then I had to face a real fear for me, which was being in that giant spotlight when there's millions and millions of people suddenly looking at you. We weren't expecting the film to be particularly interesting to people. And then

suddenly this massive global flood of interest and that spotlight, which is, I'm sure as a psychologist, you know how terrifying that can be for a lot of people. And that was far more terrifying than anything I think I've experienced in my life. So that was, that was the, and I think it is a primal fear to be in front of people. And certainly we've got no evolutionary mechanism for dealing with being in front of millions of people. It's just didn't ever exist. So, and, and having a spotlight on you or getting an award, if you, you know, that idea to the primal mind is foreign and you would avoid it at all costs because indigenous people know,

certainly in Africa, know that that kind of thing causes trouble. So that was terribly frightening for me. And that was probably my, my, you know, I had to really face that primal fear and it pushed me to the limit. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous.

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for 20% off. You know, the primal fear is isolation. Being propped up increases the chances of rejection yeah also of deeper acceptance and inclusion like if you if you're the one that keeps providing bounty and rewards for the tribe then you know but you're also it's the risk is that if you come back up empty-handed or they reject you for your ideas, for your heart, for your insights, the life design that you've created, that that's probably what was touched by you. And I think that I've done a bunch of research here, obviously being in the world of

performance, that one of the greatest, greatest constrictors of our potential is what other people might be thinking of us. Yes, yes. And we play it safe rather than really go for it. But I don't know if you're aware, and I mean, that's an amazing thing. I know you've done a lot of work with that, but I don't know if you're aware, but say in the San culture, the people that are my mentors, if someone gets really good at hunting, for instance, and they manage to bring a huge animal into the village, first of all, they're not allowed to bring it into the village.

They have to leave it on the edge. And they will then just come sit quietly in the village and people will go and look and it's this incredible animal that absolute master hunter they will then come back and say to that person why did you even bother this is a bag of old bones why this is an absolutely useless we can't even get any fat off this animal they will tease that person until that person's right down. So they actively make sure nobody's ego gets high. And if you ask them why they do that, they say, well, surely you know, as soon as that happens and someone is supposedly the best hunter or better than anyone else, that's when all the trouble starts. That's when the fights start.

So, okay. so the hunter goes out leaves it at the edge people come out and like wow and then who initiates this um this bringing that hunter back to the to the to the fold like how does that actually happen because this happens in locker rooms all the time ah interesting all the time this happens in locker rooms all the time. Ah, interesting. All the time this happens in locker rooms. So interesting. I think, yeah, I think, okay, and I'll give you a fun story. This is the insight, is that I think, and this could be blasphemous in some worlds, but I think some of the most honest rooms on the planet are locker rooms.

People are walking around naked. They're made fun of. They're great teammates. There's a shared mission. There are walking around naked. They're made fun of. They're great teammates. There's a shared mission. There's a rich honesty. They don't let you get away with anything. They prop you up when they see success. They give it to you straight if you're loafing. They let you know with great intensity if you're not pulling your weight. There's something pretty amazing about it. And there's lots of, there's lots of problems with modern day locker rooms that, you know, I won't be naive here, but there's, there's a fine system, an organic fine system that happens in lots of locker rooms.

And so if you big time somebody, it's like a, call it a $10 or a hundred dollar fine, whatever the arbitrary number is. If you self-aggrandize, you know, that's a fine. If you dismiss another, thump your chest. All these types of things that are to bring people back into the fold are actual fines. And it's always organic. It's not like somebody writes a list and says, these are the fines. But it's like this thing that takes place and unfolds organically each year for a team. So I just wanted to kind of make some comparison there. Will they, Mike, if someone wins the game and scores the most points,

will they actively bring that person down and tease them? Yeah, like in the moment, they're like, you know, nice job. And then instantly, you know, when the culture is really strong, they'll be like, hey, you know, and it'll be a joke like, okay, here comes Gervais. He thinks he won the game. Okay, Gervais, you think you won the game? You know, there's like that type of thing. That's so interesting. That's embedded in our memory from the old times.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so that's how you drew the line that that was an ancient practice and i want to go back to the mechanics of it an ancient practice showing up in modern locker rooms that's what i was think very interested in that's why i'm asking you i'm asking you if that yeah because what they do if someone's the you know incredible hunters, just one example, they will bring that person right down and tease them mercilessly. Okay. Give me the, like, bring that to life so I can understand. So what they will also do as part of this mechanism is the,

that hunter will not own the meat either. So the person who's made the arrow will own the meat. So an old person who doesn't hunt anymore makes the arrow. So they purposely do that. And then that person, the old person, will divide the meat. So it's a whole process to bring everyone's ego in line with all the other people, so that you don't cause cause fights it's from living for thousands of years in these social systems that worked so well and but i don't think we've got that right i mean that's our sister our society is less cognizant of these things but that's why i was fascinated when you said there's something similar in the locker room i thought thought maybe there's some memory from that deep time. So,

they will actively take that person down and tease them so that they don't feel like they're the hero. It's amazing. And so, this idea of team, from tribe to team type of arc that you and I are talking through. In the Western world, we want to prop up the star, but then our society wants to take them down as quickly as we possibly can because it makes us feel a little bit better that we are not extraordinary ourselves. And so if we can pull somebody back to the middle, but that's different than what you're talking about there's a first principle here at finding mastery that we talk about is no one does it alone we need each other yeah absolutely critical yeah yeah and so but this so there's a i'll tell you a project it was um a really intense project i'll keep i'll keep the names and people out of it. A senior advisor, three-star general, was observing

the main person in the project. It was an individual that was doing this feat, but there was a team supporting. And the individual was acting like it was all about him. And this three-star, I think it was three-star general, slid a note over and the note said, success is not success unless it's shared. Beautiful. So same kind of thread here. But okay, Craig, take me back. Take me back down to like, how does the person get knocked down?

How do they pull him back? They literally, you know, he just, he has to, because of the custom, sit quietly and not say much. And then they start to, especially the older people, will start to tease and just say, oh, we went to look at the animal and it was, you know, it's skinny. there's no fat on it. Why did you bother to hunt that animal? Then he will just kind of, you know, not say too much and they'll just keep doing that until they feel that it's enough and he's brought back down.

Then only will they go out and bring the animal into the village. But, of course, you know, everybody's underneath very happy about they're all going to feast. And often there's a hunger or whatever. And that's a response to the fear that this person is going to take over? Yeah, I know. It's going to start fights. And it's going to start a discord because it's so critical when you're living wild and you're living in these groups to be working as a team, as you say, and working together. And there's a, you know, that there's a good vibe. You're all living closely together. So it's absolutely essential that these social elements are working very well. And if someone feels better than somebody else, they know that's when the fight starts. So that

is, it's obvious if you think about it. Is this a power? Is this a subtle power play so that the king or whoever, I don't know what the right, the tribal leaders maintains power. They are no leaders. That's the beauty. They don't have leaders. So it's a community. They don't have a king. They don't have a chief. There's this incredible equality. And there's also no male dominance, which is also so beautiful. So the women have equal say, it's an incredibly powerful society. Of course, when you get a lot of pressures from outside and other groups coming in, then eventually they were forced to have leaders when there was warfare and so on. But before that, for thousands and thousands of years, they lived in this sort of egalitarian environment.

You said something, you said living wild, when you're living wild. You didn't say when you're living in the wild, which I'm struck by. And then, because I don't think that was a misword there, and I wanted to ask you about your subtitle of your book. So Amphibious Soul is the title. But again, I was struck by the subtitle, Finding the Wild in a Tame World. And I don't think of the world being tame. I think the world is like spinning nearly off axis in multi facets. But you're framing the world as being tame.

Yeah. So when I say tame, what I mean is tame is connected to technology. Tame is connected to living inside, having air conditioning, comforts, all the things that let's face it, we all enjoy at some level. And I'm not saying that we need to discard those things. But what I'm saying is, when I say wild, I mean, having a connection to our ancestors, having a connection to this oldest language we talked about tracking, being able to withstand cold, discomfort, all those things that we've done from the beginning of time. Only in this tiny little short time of tameness have we lost a lot of those attributes. So what I'm saying is to be able to find a balance between the wild and the tame. At the moment, I see it as kind of like this,

in every one of us, there's this wild person that has this 3 million old memories of everything that's associated with wildness. And then the tame person, which connected to all these things we've been thrown at that we actually quite unused to in many ways. So all I'm saying is that I think it would be in our interest to try and find more of a balance. The wild person at the moment is being smothered by that tame person. But I can see what you're saying. I mean,

the world is, you know, there's a lot of strife and a lot of mental health issues. But I think the mental health issues are because of the tameness. If you go into the wildness, and the wildness is of course connected to the sacred, to nature, it can be incredibly helpful for a lot of that mental health, because you sense who you are and how you belong. Yeah, when I think of a young kid, six-year-old who's been doubted on and praised for very little anything meaningful. And they're walking around sitting at the head of the table like they own power. And then they eventually turn into a 16-year-old and a 26-year-old that does not have an understanding of where they fit in the world. And when they try to exert some sort of influence or power

and they don't have anything, it's not based on any real skill or position in the world, it's quite unsettling. And so I hear when you're in the wild, you quickly respect your place of the wild. And that might be- That's a beautiful way of looking at it, yeah. Sorry, you were going to say?

No, no, no. I'm right there with you. Like the tame, I definitely understand the tame life. Like I sleep with, it's a joke in my house. Like I didn't grow up with, you know, middle class, but I definitely didn't have like air conditioning. Okay. So we didn't have some of those things. But my son, every night, he's like, Dad, can you turn it to 68?

And you're probably cringing right now, you know, like it's for whatever it's doing for the environment or whatever. And my wife and I are like, what's going to happen when he needs to sweat? You know, like this is a stupid small example, but I really respect your position. has incredible knowledge and relationships with hundreds and hundreds of animals and plants. So they've got these incredible relationships and knowledge of these plants and these animals and their behaviors. Okay, so they've got this relationship with these wild kin. They see them as part of a kind of family. They've got very powerful relationships with elders. They've already been on incredible hunts and forages. So they've got almost like this incredible network, can you imagine, going out into their world and tremendous knowledge of

that. And they're already very good trackers. So there are thousands of these threads, if you can imagine, going out from this person's mind and body into the wild, and it's very, very complex. And they've learned these things from thousands of years of accumulated knowledge passed directly to them. So their knowledge is incredible. Then compare that with a 15-year-old of today whose main relationship might be with his cell phone, his computer, and a few people. And he hasn't been on any great adventures or whatever. And he hasn't got all those threads going on.

How does that affect the psyche? Are you with me? That's because the psyche is expecting all those relationships and all that complexity and all that awe in a way. And, of course, there's a level of danger as well. But what does it do to the psyche when all those threads have been severed? What does it do to that person, that being? So that's why I'm talking about the wild and the tame and why I find the wild so important. Because you lose the sense of belonging, and that's terrifying.

The idea of rewilding, when I was first introduced to that, I loved that phrase. And in some respects, you're getting right to it. You're saying, just connect to the wild. And it's not lost on me that you and I are talking about this in the comfort. We're both inside of square buildings, square walls, man-made. All things right angled are usually man-made. Nature's curves and so like we're sitting using modern tech on a podcast right now you know but one of the longest

flights in the world is from los angeles to south africa and and here we are you're not saying don't appreciate modern comforts i think what you're saying is respect the 100,000-year-old ancestry and programming and to reconnect to nature in some way on a regular basis. Am I being too prescriptive here? No, I think you've got it right what i'm saying is i mean i enjoy the comforts i enjoy the technology i'm a filmmaker and a photographer you know so i use all these uh tech but what i'm saying is the balance is so unbalanced and that wild person that's inside all of us that's desperate to come out and feel all those things that we're expecting, that wild psyche is expecting. I'm just saying, let's try and get the balance right.

I mean, the emphasis on technology is just, it's not healthy in so many ways. I mean, you know that far better than I do, that just stealing our focus the whole time. So we just need some of that wildness back, and then the human being starts to feel more comfortable and starts to feel like we're not an alien on this planet, that we actually belong. Are you more wild or more tame at this point in your life? Probably still too tame. I have to work on that wildness the whole time, every day. I'm lucky I live... If you really... Sorry, please go on. You have to work on it.

Yeah, every day. I'm going into that cold water every day. I'm practicing the tracking every day, but I'm being pulled. I mean, have the you know being pulled by messages on the on the the cell phone on the computer and all the work i have to do you're getting pulled into that tame world the whole time so it's it's quite a a discipline to try and keep because i know i feel just so much better if i can maintain my wildness if I can maintain my level of tracking, my ability to deal with cold, you know, my connection to my ancestors, all these things. I know if I maintain that, I just feel so much better. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep.

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in, a shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. I can't tell you how much I agree and aligned with you, but I'm a little afraid of my wild. Like I could blow this whole thing up.

If I went a little too far, I can see a version. My younger part of me, I grew up surfing. My girlfriend at the time, who is now my wife, we've been together since a very young age. She says, how do you want? What do you want? How do you see your life? I said, I think milk crates and plywood. She says, what?

I said, yeah, like I'm perfectly fine having my living room table be milk crates, plywood, and like a plastic covering on the plywood. Like I don't need much was my point. And that, that wild part of me has gone pretty dormant, you know? And so I feel like at some point I can pull my son out of school and this nice, you know, fancy kind of life that he's living and just go, I just, I get nervous that I could blow the whole thing up and I don't do any of it. And when I'm really honest, I'm afraid. It's not the hard work of it. I'm just afraid. That's so interesting. I think also that, I mean, don't forget that storytelling, what you're doing is a very primal, wild activity. Family ties, social ties, deep connection to your children, your wife, that's a very primal, wild thing as well.

It's not just, you know, the tracking and the cold and all that stuff and connection to animals. So that's a big factor. I mean maybe there is I mean there is a fear of discomfort and I guess there is a fear in us and that's why we need to find that balance that everyone feels comfortable with and you you're probably

very satisfied with your work and with this it's quite a the psychology and that you're doing is also quite a primal activity a lot of these early people were you know entering these incredibly interesting states of consciousness and trying to understand things at a very deep level so it's not totally unaligned with that but i i'd have to think more about how to say well you know maybe i mean i guess i was fearful when i encountered that all those years ago in the kalahari and realized

i don't really want to go into that wildness because i know how much energy that's going to take but i i i just needed to and i and now that i've i've done that to some degree and felt how much more comfortable i feel in myself. That's why I'm advocating for this balance and for letting that wild person live a bit. Who is your new book for? That's an interesting question. I guess it's for anybody who's already connected to nature and wants to go deeper, or for people who are feeling that they don't quite belong and they're feeling anxious or

disconnected. I think it could be very valuable for them because it's surprisingly simple. You know, I did it the hard way. I tried to dive with great whites and I even drive with crocodiles trying to find that wildness. But I found that real wildness, you know, in my backyard in tiny little limpets living on the seashore because I got to know their lives. And you can get to know a fly or a rat or if you really get to know even just one animal really well you will connect with your wildness on a very very deep level even if that animal is an insect or a rodent it doesn't matter because that animal will teach you about the wild world. Our home, I mean, this is our home, you know, and I think anybody who cares about this planet and wants to leave a better place for our children or even for the, you know,

10 or 20 years into the future, the book is also looking at, you know, what I think is the most precious substance on this planet and looking after that. And I feel that substance is biodiversity, which is all this complexity and these relationships in the wild world of which we are part. We feel separate to nature, but we're not. We are woven into the wild world completely, and we always have been. We just feel this illusion of separateness. I like to remind myself and people that nature is not the ocean, the pond, the tree, the forest, the wild brush. I am nature. You are nature. We are nature too. And so that for me is another guiding thought that it's not that thing over there. I am nature, and I'll use your language now. I'm wild

too. Living in a tame world, I so much more appreciate how you're framing it. And so I need to work through, you know, Craig, what I'm clear about in this conversation, I need to work through this all or nothing thing. myself to my wild through mother nature in my backyard would be a simple little practice. Can you give me one or two ways that I and the listener can maybe practice rewilding or finding the wild in your language? As you say, your backyard. So this idea of, say, going to some remote, incredibly exotic place and spending two or three weeks and seeing huge megafa city, some little place where you can connect with a bird, an insect, a rodent, what doesn't matter, whatever it is. And just quiet in your mind and just sit still and only watch and observe. And you do that every day. And if you can have a little diary or take photographs or whatever way you want to do it, and you observe the changes in the environment and in that group of animals that you're looking at. And it's fine to be bored and it's fine to think that nothing's

happening. Because if you do that, and it only takes half an hour a day or even less, and you start to see the cycles of nature, and you start to see the cycles of nature and you start to see that animal and then you start to realize that the all these threads going off from that animal to its prey its predators the the climate the whole environment how it breeds it's like i can't tell you the impact it has on one just to know even one animal like that it's a completely transformative experience so even if you pick ants i mean they are most unbelievable creature and you just go into their world and see what that creature teaches you, you will be absolutely shocked. And of course, as you do that, it creates empathy. As you track or as you watch, as you observe, it creates tremendous

empathy and eventually some form of love. And once you've loved and connected and have empathy for one animal, the whole of the biosphere starts to, you realize it's all the same. We realize we're connected. And this deep appreciation starts to come forward. And then you will naturally want to look after it. So it's just a, and it's a beautiful experience. And it's quite simple. You just have to spend the time and have the curiosity

and have the questions. What is that animal doing? It's not just going from A to B. They're always doing something for a reason and you slowly work that out and I guarantee you it will change your life. I mean, everybody who's had that experience has felt very changed by it. Okay. Hold on. This is a hard pivot here. 2021, you won the Oscars, best documentary feature.

The reason I'm having a hard pivot is because at the Seattle Seahawks, we did a bunch of like after practice, we did grounding work. We'd have guys take off their shoes and just walk on the grass as a way to trigger the parasympathetic nervous system. It was fringe at the time. And, you know, guys are like, what? And then, you know, you'd see a bunch of us just kind of walking on the grass. And it was like, yeah, it's kind of nice. It's conversations, feet on the ground, just a way to kind of find a moment to reconnect. But it was a competitive advantage, we thought, because we're reconnecting quickly or trying to downregulate quickly. And what we did really well, I think, we won a Super Bowl, which is hard to do. And I think we prepared them in a meaningful way to be successful,

but we failed, I think, deeply to prepare them to deal with the success. And so 2021, Oscar award, and there's a challenge with fast success, fast meaning kind of quote, unquote, overnight, but you didn't have that type of recognition and fame while you're making your movie. And then you're on record talking about the global attention that you received. It disrupted sleep. There was a phase of insomnia that you really had a phase where you felt like your mind and body were breaking down. Can you talk about what you've learned from being in the spotlight and the stressors, how the rest of us might be able to learn from that experience on how to be okay in the spotlight or be okay out front or be okay, better okay with whatever successes might be taking place for people. Yeah. I mean, I think that it's hard for a lot of people to understand why that might be such a difficult experience. But I've spoken to many people

who've gone through something similar and they've often said it's the most difficult time of their lives and it's psychologically i've i've heard it being compared to a really bad car accident psychological equivalent so you're not prepared for it really it takes you by surprise you don't know how to deal with that just thousands of people trying to get hold of you and needing things because you it's nice to be able to help someone if they need something but you just literally have to cut that off and be but ruthless and that feels awful you feel bad about yourself how to deal with it it is it's so difficult it really is difficult i think what is what is good to know is that most people really struggle with that a

lot. And certainly people, you know, have ended up in a very bad state. Some people even commit suicide. So it really is difficult. And just to know that would be helpful because I didn't know that. I thought it was something wrong with me. And then to just, I guess you have to have tools to deal with that kind of thing. So, for instance, you know, just going out and knowing that you can walk in the water on the ground to ground yourself. Breathing techniques are incredibly useful to just bring all the adrenaline down. For me, you know, just connecting with nature as much as possible. But of course, it's also the upside of it in that extreme adversity, as I'm sure you know, as a psychologist,

that's when the real teaching and learning occurs. Because you're forced into that place that you're talking about, that real deep, dark fear. You're not going to go there unless you're forced there. So you get forced into that dark place by this experience and you have to face that. And especially if you can't sleep, you just have to face it without any relief. And it's deeply disturbing, but it's also incredibly healing, because you have to face those very, very hard fears. And for me, it was like just stuff from deep childhood. I went back into my childhood and literally met my young self and all those deep fears of that child. And you just have to somehow try and reconcile that.

I mean, I don't wish it on anybody, and I don't wish to go back then. I'm quite wary of going back and being in that spotlight again. I'm very wary of that. That's why it's much nicer to do a book than a film, you know, going back and being in that spotlight again, I'm very wary of that. That's why it's much nicer to do a book than a film, for instance, because it's an easier thing to deal with. That huge flood of interest, I don't think anyone's prepared for that, really. So I think these mechanisms and just to know that, you know it if you can get through it it's it's it's a it's actually a enormous blessing because it it it it humbles one so deeply that you know you really feel just grateful to be just sit here with

you and talk and feel good and relaxed and enjoying life and feeling this magnificent universe that we're part of is just an absolute joy. Yeah. When you think about what you know, your connection to the wild, your appreciation for the tame world, the balance between the two and where we're heading as a global society with artificial intelligence and some real challenges that we're facing, environmental, geopolitical, like some real challenges, mental health. What do you think are the most important mindsets going into the next decade, if you will. And this is actually what I wanted to ask you as well, and I think this will maybe set the scene for the question, is that

I've had now this amazing privilege of 12 years every single day in this incredible underwater forest face to face with these animals and really immersing in their lives and trying to understand them and then they become these teachers as I said and the biggest thing that I'm seeing through this experience is this incredible thing, what I call the mother of mothers, that's literally keeping all of us alive from second to second and has from the beginning time. So it's like the immune system of this planet. If the planet was our body, it would be our microbiome, all the bacteria that are keeping us alive. That's biodiversity. That's all these, especially these small creatures, the phytoplankton, all the bacteria, all these small animals, some of the big animals like whales as well, they are keeping us alive. If that biodiversity collapses, unfortunately, we all collapse, we all die. Everything that is,

all our money is gone, everything's worth zero. So this biodiversity, all these creatures and plants, is this most valuable substance. It's literally the life force that's running through us. We cannot exist without it. And we're part of it. We're also part of that and we're woven in. So I think the most important thing is for our own mental health, but also for our physical health, and for, if we want to continue as a species, we have to reconnect with that life force. And we have to appreciate it, and we have to care for it and regenerate it. So my question to you, especially because you think about how the human mind works in so many ways why do you think we've given up this most precious thing that's our life support

system that is the most critical thing for us to breathe and be in existence? Why would we give that up for money and for wealth that we don't need? What is the psychological thing that's going on that would make such a clever species be so incredibly stupid? Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth.

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Sleep is one of the foundational pillars of high performance. There's no arguing that. And when we have great sleep consistently and deeply, we give ourselves the best chance to operate at our best physically, cognitively, emotionally, sleep affects it all. That's why I care about the environment that I sleep in so much. And of course, a great mattress, it matters. One of our teammates here at Finding Mastery has been sleeping on a Lisa mattress for over a year now, and it's made a noticeable difference. They specifically chose one from their chill collection because they sleep hot,

something I know many of us can relate to, myself included. What are they reporting back? Fewer wake-ups, deeper rest, and feeling more recovered when they jump into their work here at Finding Mastery. Lisa has several models to choose from. So whether you're a side sleeper, a stomach sleeper, or somewhere in between, there's a fit designed specifically for you. And what I appreciate most is their purpose.

They've donated over 41,000 mattresses to people in need. I love that. So right now you can get 25% off all mattresses at lisa.com plus an extra $50 off when you use the code finding mastery at checkout. That's Lisa L E E S a.com. The promo code is finding mastery for 25% off and then plus an extra $50 on us because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. I love the question. Um, where I reflexively go when I think about this is that I had this lightning bolt insight when I was younger about tattoos and I always thought they look cool and I like them I think they're incredibly artistic obviously there's been a lot more tattoos now like when I was younger I'm talking about the 70s it was really for like I I don't know, bikers and, you know, rock and roll folks. And, and so I remember having this idea, like, huh, what would I get? And I thought, man, that's too permanent

for me. I don't know. I don't know. Like, so I was, I had this in this lightning bolt. I was like, you know, tattoos are actually for people that don't think long term. And I'm laughing because like so many of my friends, you know, producer Alex's, he's got tattoos and, you know, like, and so, but it was a moment when I was a kid, like, oh, it's the inability to see long term because you only have so much space. And you're likely going to want to change and you just keep adding on to it. And at some point they're going to look weird, you know, like when my skin is like changed and like, okay, so this is like all of my thinking that got in the way of me getting some tattoos. All right. Enough of my narcissism, not narcissism, my anxiety there. But okay. So why do I bring that story up? Is because we are operating with an ancient brain in modern times, and our ancient brain is designed for a couple of things, survival being one of the primary dictums.

And survival, part of survival is belonging, which I think you and I have deeply touched on. And another part of survival is dealing with the immediacy of things. And if I have power, it actually can enhance survivability because I have the gold, I have the land, I have the control of people, whatever. And all of that is obtuse in my head. It just makes my skin crawl. But that is a short-term approach to what the brain is saying, hey, make sure you're okay now, today, survive.

And so the inability, just like tattoos, the inability to really see long-term and connect to where our, let alone our grandparents, let alone great-grandparents and great, let alone the ancestry of a couple hundred thousand years before us, it doesn't compute with the ancient brain saying, make sure we survive right now. So it's a short-sightedness to grab the immediacy of the resources right now to put us in a better position to meet the demands of the small tribe, the larger society, whatever it is that we're trying to connect to. And it's that short-sightedness that is what's plaguing us right now for the health of the ecosystem.

It takes a very contemplative, thoughtful, connected human to say or feel what you introduce in this conversation. There's not enough of us. I'll put myself in that category. There's not enough of us that have enough power to shift the way that the people that are operating in a short-sighted approach to life. So what is our real power? One, we need to be a living beacon for connection and come from a place that people look and go, which you're doing, Craig. Oh, I want some of that.

What is that? And then when that takes place, that's how I operationalize modern day leadership, that the inner light is so bright, people naturally go, I want to be connected. So there's a leading and a following, but it starts with the inner light and that vibrance, that zest for life. And so, I think that that's kind of what's taking place. It's a survival brain, power control, fill in the blanks, is the grab at the inability to kind of project long-term, kind of like the tattoo thing. And listen, I love my friends that have tattoos.

I love tattoos. I think it's a high art, actually. Just using it as a metaphor. Just, yeah, right. Do you have tattoos? Do you have tattoos, by the way? No, but my son does. No.

Yeah, right. So just to kind of be super tight about it, the survival brain is not thinking long-term. It's not trying to set out what we're going to do a month from now. It's trying to figure out the route away from the wildebeest. And we've got an ancient brain in modern times. Our modern dilemma is survivability of our ecosystem. And then I add one more layer of complexity to it is in the Western world, on most factors

of vibrance, zest for life, a sense of flourishing are moving in the wrong direction, especially for young people. The loneliest segment of our population in the West used to be 65 and above, age 65 and above. And now it's, depending on what research you look at, 14 to 22 are reporting to be the loneliest. So if you're lonely, anxiety is on the rise, addiction's on the rise, suic, anxiety is on the rise, addiction is on the rise, suicidality is on the rise, depression is on the rise, an alarming rate, and you're feeling really disconnected and lonely, you're not thinking about, how am I going to save the planet? You're not connected to something that has this rich purpose to it. So that's where I go as a study of

individuals. That's how I think about it. Very interesting. Yeah. And if you've had in the ancient brain all these incredible relationships, and now it's diminished to the cell phone and a few other small things, of course, you're going to feel that. Yeah. That's kind of the thing that's happening for us. And my son, just the other day, this is like right in my living room. He says, Dad, what do you think about me getting on social media? He's 15, just about to turn 16.

And there's a surge in general warning now. And I know what it does to our brains. And I also don't want him to be like a kid that is not connected to his friends in that way too. So anyway, so I don't know. I'm trying to figure it out too. I think it's also that we're under such strange pressure now that we can make really odd decisions. And ironic, I mean, not ironically, but at, I mean, at the moment, 80% of the land-based biodiversity

is protected by indigenous people, yet they only make up 5% of the human population. So they know how precious this is. They know what to do. So we have got these incredible groups of people who are thinking far ahead and know what to do, and a lot of the scientists too. So I'm just hoping that we can follow these amazing Indigenous elders and the top scientists who absolutely are saying the same thing. I want to triple down that connection to first people and learning from what they, the richness that they have to offer us. And I also want to be really clear that my assessment of our condition based on your question, I am not endorsing that. I think that that is like, it's egregious. Not taking care of our environment and

ourselves and our future is a problem. It is one of the massive crises that we are facing right now in a very existential way and sometimes an immediate way. So I just want to make sure that I'm clear on that. And I'm also tripling down with you that we have so much to learn from first people. And you're a bridge. You're a bridge to some of those principles. I think we're lucky here in Africa. I mean, you know, my friend JJ Minya is a Xhosa master tracker. He lives very Glamini, who I work with, who is deeply in touch with her ancestors, I can learn from her. It's much easier here in many ways. So many of the people who live here are connected in this way. The San who I learned from in the Kalahari. and the wild environment here,

you know, it's harder in a city. Although I was very interested when I recently did my book tour, I tried out this tracking method in New York and in London, and I was able to get into full tracking flow in the heart of the cities. So it is actually possible. We have that capability. Your question about how can we navigate the future? Part of it is by letting this wild person inside all of us come out, because that wild person has got those thousands and thousands of years of experience and memory and knowledge of these things. And it's in many ways, it's far wiser than the very clever, tech, tame person. So for these, and it's easy to lose hope as well. You know, if you're just looking at the world through the tame lens,

it's quite easy to lose hope. And you think, well, how are we going to deal with this climate crisis, this environmental crisis? But that wild person knows how to do that. That's interesting. And through relationships we become is another first principle that I work from. Your relationship with yourself, with others, with mother nature, with experience, and at this point now with machines, with AI. And I think that that relationship is so foundational that there's so much to learn from them. And I don't know if they can teach us how to deal with AI.

So that's where I hear you. And then I go, they can teach us maybe how to be better connected to self, others, and the planet, but I'm not sure that they would know what to do with the speed of technology and one of the smartest machines on the planet at your fingertips. How are you thinking about that? Well, I'm thinking people think AI is so clever, but compared to nature, any of our systems are dysfunctional. They're so power-heavy. They're so clumsy. The technology of nature makes any of our technology look like it's nursery school.

I mean, you try- The technology of our brain, our brain relative to the AI brain, if you will. But our brain, which is nature, but also nature itself. I mean, you try and, you know, you get the best scientists and the best AI in the world and say, okay guys, please make a bumblebee. They can't do it. Cannot make a bumblebee. Simple insect. So, I mean, and it's also about, I think AI could be, you know, if it's used appropriately, if we know what we need to do. So if we know that biodiversity is the most important thing, that's the life support system, and that will determine our future. No technology is going to save us. That's what people are not understanding. Our

technology is far too simple and pathetic to be able to save us as a species. The technology of nature is extremely complex and powerful. So if we can use AI to regenerate the life support system, the biosphere, all this biodiversity, that would be great. And it could be. So it's about how we use it that's so critical. And if we have a goal, yeah. Are you familiar with Wild Ark? I have heard that term, but I can't remember what it is. I think that Noah's Ark, Wild Ark. Yeah, so I'll go get exactly, I don't know why it's escaping me right now, but what they were, so it's a nonprofit foundation born out of Australia and what they were, what they sorted out is that, okay, if we go protect these pieces of land across the world, we can grow like 90% of the required ecosystem in those protected lands. So they're using some analysis.

There's obviously some technology involved in that. And it's really smart. It's a really awesome foundation. I'll send it to you. I also put it in the show notes for the listener to be able to, maybe that's a place that they want to fund. It's like they sort it out if you protect these lands and they're on a mission to go protect those lands, that we make a significant contribution to the ecosystem. Yeah, so these biodiversity

hotspots can regenerate life in an incredible way and that's one critical thing we need to do. But almost at a more fundamental level, which I think you'll understand. We need to change our story. So, we need to change our story away from this idea of infinite capitalism towards a regenerative mindset and living in reciprocity. We've always lived in reciprocity with the rest of the world and with nature, which is ourself. So, that's what we need to do. We fundamentally need to change that story and be doing all these other things. And it's going to take this global community to do that with people in AI, people in conservation, people in government, everybody realizing, okay, that's the new story. We can't carry on this crazy infinite capitalism story.

It just doesn't work. I want to introduce you. You might know her, Elizabeth Lindsay. She's a Nat Geo explorer, and she travels the world as a wayfinder to understand the indigenous traditions and ancient wisdoms and to be able to translate and share those with other people. I think you guys would have a fantastic conversation. I'd love to. Yeah, I did a podcast with her early on. It's like one of the first ones I did. I'm so fascinated by what you are doing, what she is doing, what Jane Goodall and other

scientists that I'm going to ask you at the end, like, if there's anyone that you would like to also celebrate on the Finding Mastery podcast that can help us be more connected to the ancient wisdoms, to the wild, to, you know, healing. We have a few names for sure. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. All right. Listen, Craig, I just want to say one more time, I want to say thank you. I'm a huge supporter of what you're doing. The book, the documentary, and where else can we point people to be part of your tribe? Thanks for that. So certainly the film is available on Netflix, Octopus Teacher. There's the book Amphibious Soul, which is available throughout America and other parts of the world. And then there's our not-for-profit organization,

Sea Change Project. And they support all of this work. As you say, I mean, all this work I do, it's a massive team effort. My know, my wife is just incredible. So many of the ideas, she's an incredible conservation journalist and teaches me every day. We've got this amazing team of journalists and scientists at Sea Change Project that we're working with every day. So we're just trying to, you know, support this work, support this idea and change the story, what I spoke about. So if people can check out Sea Change Project, that would be great. I made, with the help of the team, a 27-part short film series that's directly connected to the book.

So there's a QR code in the book and you just click on that and it takes you to the film series. And as you read the book, you can actually go into these short films and immerse yourself in the wild, go tracking, go diving with sharks and crocodiles and octopus, go tracking on land, do all these different things through these short films as well. So it's an immersive experience. So that's really- You did it right. You did it right. It's super elevated. Everything you do is super elevated. So well done, mate. Really well done. And I so appreciate your work, Michael. I think it's critical, your whole way. It's been fascinating speaking to you and love to keep in touch. Thank you so much. Appreciate you, Craig.

Bless you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously.

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