Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Army Major Mike Erwin on Optimism, Relationships, Transitions

Episode Date: September 27, 2017

Mike Erwin served in the US Army for 13 years, including 3 deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan.He is the Founder and President of The Positivity Project, a non-profit strengthening leadership and relationships through a deeper understanding of character.Mike is also the board chair of Team Red, White, and Blue, providing a network that helps veterans to combat their tendency to isolate themselves as they go through a difficult transition from soldier to civilian.When Mike was nearing the end of his deployment, he looked for a way to continue making a difference, and decided to help veterans returning from war.He's on an endless quest to do good for our country and the world.This conversation is not a military conversation -- it's about relationships and the commitment to help others transition in life.It's about finding purpose across multiple professions and staying true to what matters most to you._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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and the potential for all situations to improve. All right. For those who are new, welcome. For those returning, welcome back to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. Let's keep in mind that the idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery. And we want to understand what they're searching for, how they see the world and make sense of their craft, and how they've trained their minds to be able to pursue excellence in their life. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true.

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at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal for two full months for free. Terms and conditions apply. Fighting Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day, certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly.

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So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash findingmastery. Now, this conversation is with Army Major Mike Irwin. Some of you might have heard of him, but those who have not, he served in the U.S. Army for

13 years, including three deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. So big time stuff here. Mike is the board chair for Team Red, White, and Blue, and they provide a network that helps veterans to combat the tendency to isolate themselves as they go through difficult transitions from soldier to civilian. He's also the founder and president of the Positivity Project. It's a nonprofit that strengthens leadership and relationships through a deeper understanding of character. And when Mike was nearing the end of his deployment, he didn't want that to stop him from making a difference. And so then he turned his passion to helping veterans returning from war. Very cool. And he's just on this endless quest, as he puts it, for good for our country and for the world. And this conversation is not about military. That's not

what this conversation is about. It's about relationships and it's about the commitment to help others transition in their life. Now we're all in relationships and we're all experiencing transitions in our life at some point or another. So both of those, if people are interested in them, have a handful of skills that can increase the quality of those experiences, meaning there's particular skills that enhance relationships and there's particular skills that speed up or deepen the transitions in our life. So those skills, as we've spoken to many of our guests, are emerging and there's themes and there's patterns. And good science, as well as the conversations many of our guests, are emerging and there's themes and there's patterns. And good science, as well as the conversations on finding mastery, are pointing us to mindfulness.

They're pointing us to having a philosophy, to articulating your vision in your life, what you want. And so there's a handful of themes that keep emerging. And so I'm excited to have this conversation with you. And at Mike's core, he's dedicated his life to service. And that's really what this conversation is about is being in service for others. And that's about finding purpose across whatever it is that you're orientating your life toward. And that mission minded, that purpose in life, it is so apparent. You know, here's just a quick side is that there's a horrifying statistic for NFL athletes that up to 87% within two years are broke. They've lost their money. And it's a phenomenal insight that while they're in the NFL and they're making good money, every Sunday their purpose is very clear.

And they work relentlessly hard. they're mission minded and they're connected to a life, not because of the money that's wonderful, but because they know that they matter in this outcome that is difficult to experience or to achieve. And then as soon as they leave the league, where's their mission? What is their purpose? And so they have to find it. They have to be connected to something larger. That 13% that's successful, they have to connect to something that's larger than just the week's outcomes. Okay, so with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Mike Irwin. Okay, Mike, how are you?

I'm really great. How about yourself? Yeah, I'm doing fantastic. So I've been wanting to connect with you for a while. So this is hopefully going to be as interesting to you as it is to me to be able to understand your path and how you've been able to create what you've been able to create so far. Yeah, absolutely. Really excited and honored for the opportunity to talk about it and to share it with you, Mike. Yeah, cool. Okay. So the lead-off batter is that very early in your professional career, you created something that had incredible scale. And that's where I want to spend most of this conversation is figuring out everything that

went in earlier to you being able to develop your project, Team Red, White, and Blue, that had early and fast scale. And I guess before we go down further on that path, is that an accurate statement? Because I've just been watching you from a distance, and it looked like in just a handful of years, you created something really special there. Yeah, no, I do think it's a very accurate statement. We were created in March of 2010. And we, for the first couple of years, we're sort of figuring it out. But absolutely, once we hired our executive director, Blaine Smith, and we built out a professional business plan, the scale and the growth has basically gone from about 8,000 members to 118,000 in about three years. So that is, you know,

for an organization as a nonprofit to grow that quickly and to sustain it as we have, I definitely think that's an accurate statement. Yeah. Okay. So I want to learn how, and I want to learn because either you know something about strategic development that is really fascinating, or you've tapped into something that organically is very potent and, and maybe it's both. Of course, it could be both. But either way, I want to understand either how you knew how to tap into something and where that process came from, or how you learned strategic development. So let's go way back. Give us a quick rundown of, you've got five projects that you're working on,

Team Red One, White and Blue, Positivity Project, a leadership development and character development program. So give us a quick rundown of a few things that you're doing. And that'll set the stage, I think, for everyone to follow. Sure, absolutely. So I think my journey, at least professionally, most accurately begins, you know, with going to West Point as a cadet and becoming an army officer. You know, that was back in, I started going there in 1998 through 2002. And really, I kind of thought that I was probably going to spend a full career in the military. As it was, I ended up spending 13 years on active duty, and now I'm still in the reserves. But, you know, that was the kind of like the initial part of many parts of my journey, because it was while I was in the Army that I was selected on ever since then. And it started in 2010 when I

founded Team Red, White and Blue, which, you know, we're a nonprofit organization with the mission to enrich the lives of America's veterans by connecting them to their community through physical and social activity. Okay, hold on just for a second. I want to make sure I get this right. Is that post-service, you went and got a master's degree. You learned positive psychology. You learned either from a course or a couple of courses that you had there. Then you went back to West Point to teach. Yeah. And so I did all that while I was still on active duty. I was an Army captain and an Army major during that five-year period between 2009 and 2014. And that's when I learned it. And I had the opportunity to study under Dr. Chris Peterson, one of the co-founders of the field.

And I then went back and taught psychology and leadership to cadets at West Point. So I did all of that while I was still on active duty. And then concurrently, that's when I founded Team Red, White and Blue was when I was in graduate school. And, you know, a big part of that was just craving that sense of, you know, that ongoing sense of service that after seven and a half years of deployment and come back and get ready to go again, you know, I was in graduate school where the pace of life was much slower. And so Team Red, White, and Blue in many ways was a place where I was able to continue serving

and continue leading outside of the scope of going to graduate school. Okay. As well, you had three deployments. Iraq. Was it two in Iraq and one in Afghanistan? Yeah, one in Iraq. So Iraq 2004 and 2005. And then two to Afghanistan in 2006, 2007. And then again in 2009. What was your role there in combat? So I was from, you know, when I was considering what branch to go, it was actually September 7th and like 8th.

Basically right before September 11th, 2001. You know, which of course we're coming upon the 15th anniversary of 9-11. And so once the attacks happened, it became very clear that, you know, one of the biggest opportunities to serve was in the intelligence branch. So I was a battalion intelligence officer and assistant intelligence officer for my first deployment to Iraq. And then I had the incredible opportunity to serve in a special forces battalion, where actually were Blaine Smith, Team Red, White and Blue's executive directors where I met him, he was a Green Beret.

But I was an intelligence officer that supported very dispersed across half of the country of Afghanistan, you know, in very high risk. And again, just a very distributed model. So intelligence was really important. And I was back at Kandahar Airfield, helping to aggregate and pull in all the various pieces of intelligence and to try to push them out to the field to the Green Berets in our battalion. Okay, so why do you use the word intelligence? Always when I hear the word, I think about information. And you guys always use it as intelligence. I'd love to understand that. Yeah, that's a really great question. So I think that, you know, from the military standpoint, you know, the word intelligence often, it does mean, in some extent, information, but a big part of it

in the military is predictive analysis. And one of my big roles in both Iraq and Afghanistan was to look at the various forms of information that we were gathering, whether by satellite or by human intelligence or signals intelligence, or, or sometimes even just open source articles that were being written by bloggers in small villages. And my job was along with all my soldiers was to look at all those various sources of information to assess the credibility of each, of each, you know, piece of intelligence that came in, and then to try to thread it together, to tell a coherent picture so that most importantly, frankly, you know, no one really cares in the army, if you can tell, you know, commanders what happened, they want help trying to think about what is going to happen. And so I spent an over,

I'd say well over half my time basically thinking and trying to connect the dots to try to predict where the insurgency was going to try to increase their operational tempo or what road or what valley they wanted to focus their efforts on once the weather broke in the Afghanistan winter. So a lot of it was really involving this process of looking at everything on the table, assessing the validity of those various components of information, and then trying to make sense of it all and then predict what was going to happen so that we could then develop operations that would effectively counter what the insurgency was going to do. Okay. So when I hear that, it sounds like intelligence is the shorthand for gathering information, doing something with it to inform a future state, which very much is like what intelligence is. But okay. Well, I should say what human intelligence is, is how quickly can we do something with new information now to increase the likelihood or chances of success in the future. So, right. Okay. So with that in mind, what is

more challenging on this part of your experience in the military is because I think that there's a stitch between what you just described, which is predictive analysis, spotting trends to do something in the future with team red, white, and blue, which has over 100,000 members in a very short amount of time. So I'm wondering what's harder. I'm imagining a table full of information if we're just really concrete. And I know most of it's probably digital information, but you've got, you've got information. Is it harder to gate out the information that doesn't make it on the table? Or is it more challenging or difficult to assess what information actually should get on the table? Or is there, I think there's a third option, at least, at least the third option, which is how do I manipulate the information that I have?

Yeah, so that's a really deep question. And I think that in some ways, it's a little bit of all of what you described. I think, though, if I had to make a decision on what is the most difficult, I think it's in some cases, weeding out information that it you know, that it's relevant, but it's not the most relevant. So, you know, so often we would get reports in and you could easily tell, you know, that, hey, this report here from this, you know, source or this person just was not, you know, very credible. That was obviously someone, you know, out in left field. But then lots of times there was information that would come in that seems like it made a lot of sense. And the ability to discern stuff that was like, it was it was important. And it might be true from the stuff that is, is really, really important, I think, for me was the most challenging, because, you know, if you overlooked something that seemed

to make a lot of sense, but it just didn't, you know, it didn't all quite seem to be there. And then something happened around, around that information. You know, you, you beat yourself up pretty bad about that because, you know, you missed an attack or you missed something that was happening that you just didn't see. But I, but I think it is, it is challenging. And to your point, I think you're, you know, I would agree. And I don't often think about it or talk about it, the connective tissue between, you know, my role as an intelligence officer in the Army, because honestly, in the Army, you know, intelligence, it's not really known as a leadership field. That's special forces, infantry, armor, aviation, you know, it's not really known

for being a leadership field in the Army as much as some of the other branches. But when I look at what I was able to do, especially in the early days of Team Red, White, and Blue, and just a real brief little storytelling on this is that when I went to the VA hospital in Ann Arbor, which is one of the largest VA hospitals in the country because it's affiliated with the university's medical school, and I asked a woman named Jennifer Lohr, who was a social worker, you know, what, you know, what's the big gap? Like what, what do veterans need that they don't seem to be getting? And really. Okay. So why that question? I want to hear your answer, of course, but why that question? And that's to get at exactly what you I think what you just raised a few minutes

ago, Mike was, I think that intuitively, there was this, this still that same thought process that I had, oh, by the way, when I was in Afghanistan, you know, I was working 1716 1718 hours a day, seven days a week. And so it was for, you know, seven straight months. And so I still had not really broken that psychological approach, you know, to looking at things. And I think I asked that question, for the same sort of reason that my intelligence officer mind, you know, was working, which is, like, I need to be able to figure out and to connect the gaps here, because why create an organization, if the need isn't crystal clear. And so I do think there's that, the connection to how I thought as an intelligence officer,

where I was trying to make predictive analysis to the same sort of issue over here on if we're going to create something for veterans, like, well, what is the need both now and looking forward, what do we think the biggest need for veterans is going to be? And so it was, it did stem around

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my friends who know me best, my wife, they tell you that, you know, I'm very enthusiastic, you know, I'm very high in, in that strength of enthusiasm, perseverant. Once something is, you know, within where I'm, I'm starting to actively get involved in something, I tend to be very persistent with anything that I can do to advance that cause or that mission or support that team. What comes first for you? Does it that dogged approach to get things done? Or does it does a mission come first? Does a purpose or, you know, the reason why you're doing it come first? Yeah, the purpose. No, I think that I think the purpose, you know, probably comes first. And again, that purpose might be my family or my relationships or my purpose might be the sense serving the country or serving the community

or the future in the case, you know, of, you know, my new nonprofit, the positivity project. But yeah, I think that sense of purpose comes first. And that that is what drives the perseverance. But I think the one the one word that most people would agree describes me the most accurately is, you know, energetic or enthusiastic, you know, or passionate, you know, it wears a bunch of different names. But ultimately, it's being very excited about just about everything that I'm involved in, you know, whether it's the army, or whether it's, you know, leadership or whether it's physical fitness or whatever it is, you know, if I'm involved in it beyond, you know, being told that I have to be involved in something, if I'm involved in anything voluntarily,

my energy that I bring, you know, to that is something that I'm very proud of because, you know, I believe that, you know, being enthusiastic is certainly not something that we want in everybody, but it's something that is contagious. You know, you can imagine there's a ton of people who are just exceedingly enthusiastic. That could be a problem. But yeah, you know, you bring up a good point because that enthusiasm is infectious and it's fun and it's great to be around. And there's also, this might be me or other people, but the contrarian in me says, okay, if somebody is that excited, that excitable, that outgoing, that on, if you will, the majority of the time, what is the dark side?

Like, what's the other side? And I know you know that that question's coming, which is the people that I'm most afraid of, if you will, are not the ones that scowl, but the ones that are always happy. And yeah, and it's because my antenna come up that either there's something really dark that they're not letting the world into, or it's just phony. And if somebody is phony, I don't know how to trust them because I don't know what I'm going to get. So I believe that you're enthusiastic. I believe that people will say that to you. And I'm wondering, like, how do you touch the other side of humanness of, you know, the darker side of the pain and not just pain, but the discomfort and the suffering and, you know, basically the dark side. So I think that is a

really fair and frankly, a very important question to ask. It's one of the things that, you know, I've given a lot of my time and thought to. And, you know, one of the things that I studied in psychology, you know, was the five different, you know, personality traits to include, you know, introversion and extroversion. And so a big part of this is really getting to understand, you know, not just people, but in situations that are much more reserved, that are much more quiet, that are much less enthusiastic than I am. And that was a big thing. And that's why I said a few minutes ago that, you know, I think it is, you know, you really do want a balance. And it is problematic if you have, you know, everybody involved on a team or in a mission that is, you know, very enthusiastic. You know, you want that balance, I think, from a character

strength profile. To your bigger question, I think that the really, the tough one is, because, you know, very enthusiastic, you know, you want that balance, I think, from a character strength profile, to your bigger question, I think that the really, the tough one is because, you know, I get asked this by, you know, a fair amount of people, like, well, how do you mean so optimistic or so positive, or, you know, so upbeat in the face of, you know, knowing, like all of the darkness and the challenges that do exist in the world, you know, and to me, I feel this is, you know, where, you know, optimism and what I learned in positive psychology, because when I studied under Chris Peterson, Chris Peterson was not at all a very enthusiastic person.

You know, he was very reserved, very quiet. And we would have these conversations where he just, sometimes he would tell me, slow down, like, take a deep breath, Mike. And I remember we had like that very strong personality difference. And again, I feel me, slow down, like, take a deep breath, Mike. And I remember we had like, that's very strong personality difference. And, again, I feel that, you know, that truly, positive psychology at its core is not looking at the world through, you know, rose tinted glasses and thinking that like, everything's great for everybody, because it because it's not.

But I do think that, you know, that for me, the true definition of optimism, that, you know, for me, the true definition of optimism and my enthusiasm is drawn from a fundamental belief in the potential of all people and the potential for all situations to improve. And in many cases, I think what really the big catalyst that is it's often waiting for to combust, you know, is, you know, is a leader, you know, or, or a series of, you know, of leaders that get instilled. And that to me is what I'll tell you. And I'll make that connection to Team Red, White and Blue in a minute is, you know, I haven't done anything that, you know, you know, great with Team Red, White and Blue in many ways, what I have done is, you know, I have with my energy and enthusiasm, I've, you know I merely struck the match to a community of veterans and veterans supporters that were already doing lots of great stuff. They just perhaps were doing it in different ways.

They were volunteering at the local VA or they were doing various things. I feel that in many cases, lots of challenges and problems in our society. It's one leader with one match away from being able to make just so many passionate people who have different levels of enthusiasm, different levels of everything. But can you rally behind this common idea, this notion that, hey, we want to help veterans to find a new community when they take off the uniform and in the process to build new relationships and to stay active. And you know, that really is is the guiding northern star of team red, white and blue. But it's been really nothing that I've done other than to, in many

ways, strike that first match. And then to see the various people who are drawn in into it, because they're already doing things in this direction. But now they've got a cause and a brand and a strategy and so many other things that they can take their fire and bring it into the bigger fire. That to me, going back to your big question, Mike, is why I believe there is no doubt for some people that phoniness or that dark side, I'm very, very conscious of that. If I'm talking about something and I'm not passionate about it, I can't fake it. And so therefore, I try to spend as much of my time as possible talking about and leading and engaged in and involved in things or missions or organizations that I'm passionate about. Because that in so many ways is what just keeps that fire burning and makes it very authentic. Are you clear on what your

purpose in life is? Oh man, you asked lots of great questions. And you know what, Mike, I don't want, the reason I asked you that question, I don't want you to, there's no traps in that question. It's like, because you are so purpose-driven and you're so clear on helping others and understanding, you know, why you do what you do. I'm wondering if that you're really clear on your mission, or I'm sorry, your purpose professionally, or if there's some sort of alignment in your personal life as well. Yeah. I'd like to think that I'm clear on my, you know, professionally, and also in my family and my faith and everything else. I'd like to think that it is. I'm always hesitant to say that, though, because I'm 36 years old, and I've been around

long enough to know that just when you think you got it figured out, you realize that you don't. But I do think that my purpose, you know, idea of service and the idea of making the world a better place by increasing the focus on in or that I ability to then, you know, uh, have the clarity of mind to know, you know, who, you know, where your time is best spent and with who, you know, to me, I think is, is it the crux of it for me, but, but I just believe if I were to say my life's purpose is to, is to make our communities and our country and ideally the world a better place, you know, by helping people to build stronger relationships and to see the good in each other. That to me, I think is my is my purpose and how I get at that is, you know, I wear many different hats to get at it. But no matter what I do in my waking hours,

whether it's in my house with my family, or if it's in my community, or, you know, somewhere across the country, that that is my northern star is how can I, you know, make our communities in our country better, you know, through a deeper sense of understanding and appreciation and respect for each other. There we have it. Okay. Yeah. And I would say, almost from what I have been able to witness from you, all of your projects are lining up for that. And if there's an obvious question know, let's just say eight to 10 years with the democratization of smartphones and data on our cell phones. I mean, people forget that it was only about 10 years ago that if you wanted to get an email from somebody, you had to be logged into a computer somewhere. It was only five years or seven years before that, that, you know, if you

want to talk to someone on the phone, they had to be at their house, and you had to be at your house. And you know, you had to have the time to talk with each other. So I think that, you know, the effect that technology and, you know, just the volume of inputs that come our way, has had on relationships is been, in some cases good. But I think probably if I had to break it down, I would say two-thirds bad, negative impact, one-third positive impact. Because now I can be on the road and I can see my kids or people on FaceTime, on the phone. But think of all the ways that our relationships have fundamentally changed in the past 10 years because of technology. So that's one piece, I think,

is the role that technology has played. And honestly, I think that so much has changed, Mike, so quickly that very few people, if anyone, has really got it figured out today. You know, I think it's a struggle that a lot of people continue to struggle with, like, how do I put my phone down? Or how do I put down, you know, my social media or my emails or my text messages or, you know, you know, whatever it may be. On the technology side and the influx of information that we have, how are you teaching others to manage that? It's a struggle. And this is one of the main focuses of the book that I have been working on for the past six and a half years about the

importance of solitude and stepping back and unplugging. I think that, you know, one of the ways that I'm really focusing on it is through, because, you know, if you look at social media, people, you know, would look at me on social media and say, wow, geez, you're on social media an awful lot. And to that, I say, I am, but I'm on there with a purpose. And that purpose is, you know, to help, you know, to spread the word about, you know, some of these missions that I'm so passionate about. But I think that there's a lot of challenges right now on knowing how to put down your phone or how to put down technology. And so I think, honestly, it starts with having a conversation with people and getting them to be reflective about just how important is their social media network relative to like spending, you know, time with people, you know, in person in the flesh. So I think to me, that's, you know,

that that's, that's a real big piece is that in many ways, it just starts with the conversation, you know, to get people to be self aware of, you know, well, what is the most important to you? And again, knowing that there are limitations, you know, to your relationships and friendships that you form, you know, on social media. Okay, so you start with a reflective question, like, is this a source of stress for you or, or not, but just get them to identify like how important it is. Yeah. What do people respond with? Like, what is important to them? If that's not important, what is important? I think a lot of people are realizing that, you know, that having a presence on social media and staying in touch with people is very important, that building a movement and growing an organization and doing things like that, as you know, a lot of people leverage social media for is important.

I think, though, that a lot of people probably are, and what I hear from lots of people in conversation and anecdotally, is this awareness that to not confuse or conflate, you know, relationships on social media with in person relationships, and who's going to be there for you, especially during the difficult times. And I think that, you know, again, when you have that conversation with people, they realize that ultimately, it's, it's who they spend time with in person, and, and what they do for people like, you know, in a one on one or in a small group setting, that is probably significantly more important than what people think of them on social media. But again, it's tough, because in many ways, you know, in the world today, we've, you know, social media has become such a dominant part of the American industrial way that it's very easy to lose sight that social media is only one small part of who we are and who people think we are. Brilliant.

If you could install a habit 20 years ago, is there one habit that you would make sure that you installed within yourself? Yeah, I think for me, be it meditation, or a practice of mindfulness, you know, it's something I still struggle with, I try to, you know, to implement it, you know, in my in my life, I certainly don't do it daily, but making a priority to carve out that time, not just to be present, but to calm down my mind. I think that for sure is something that people who are very, very busy, you know, when you're talking parenting and being involved in multiple things, I think there's that sense that there's always something to do. And then the other practice to just kind of couple with that, that is this ability to control your emotions.

I would instill a practice of anytime receiving information, be it via email or test message or whatever, you know, that upsets me or that I disagree with to to put it down and to not respond emotionally. And I think that we've really created in many, many ways in our culture and in our lives, especially like with the pace of life being fast, when things ruffle our feathers or get us upset, like we do one of two things, either respond emotionally, like in the pace of life being fast, when things ruffle our feathers or get us upset, like we do one of two things. We either respond emotionally, like in the moment, or we just completely ignore it.

And I don't think either one of those is healthy. I think to me, I would instill that practice of, you know, putting away for a few hours to a few days, you know, and then engaging in it, but not completely ignoring it. And certainly not, as I've made many mistakes from my time as an intelligence officer, as a teacher at West Point, and, you know, as a leader in Team Red, White, and Blue, you know, where I often respond emotionally in the moment. And, you know,

today's day and age, it allows you to do that. Whereas, you know, I'm not sure that we're necessarily hardwired, you know, for that to be the most effective way to respond to things that, you know, that we that we strongly strongly disagree with that we're passionate about. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that.

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Is there a phrase that cuts to the center or guides your life? Yeah, absolutely. And these words come from my academic advisor, Dr. Chris Peterson, who passed away of a heart attack in October of 2012. He would travel around the world, Mike, from China to the Middle East to Europe and South America, giving speeches as a prominent leader in the field of positive psychology.

And he would usually start with a joke where he would say, look, I know a lot of you have to be here because, you know, your company or your organization or you're supposed to hear me out for the next hour. But I know that not all of you are thrilled to be here. But then he would go on and say very, very seriously. But if you're not going to give me the next hour, give me the next 30 seconds. Positive psychology can be summed up in three words. Other people matter. Period. Anything that you can do that builds relationships in and among people is going to make you happy. And so that to me just cuts to the core of so much of how I try to live my life and how I try to instill in my kids and the example that I try to set for

other people. And I've not been perfect, or these you know past six seven years as team red white and blue has been growing so much you place a lot of pressure on yourselves to grow and to do more and you know in some cases there are some of my relationships you know they struggle a little bit because in some cases i put you know building a strong team red white and blue is like it was like one of the most important things in my life and see this is this is what i is what I'm talking about. This is the part where I was, I was trying to get to a little earlier, which I think we're dancing around a little bit is that, you know, when we're mission minded, wanting to build something purpose driven, all that good stuff. Yeah. What is the cost of it? Right. And I feel like where you're taking this conversation now is that you're

saying, yeah, like at home, I've got kids, I've got a family, and there's a challenge to those relationships. So with that in mind, there's a phrase that makes a lot of sense to me, which is that at any given point in time, there's a standing civil war within myself. And it's not like there's a torture. It's not a torture that's taking place, but there's an inner conversation, a critic, an argument, a conversation that at one time was really loud for me me and it's less loud now. But how do you manage your inner critic? You know, I think that the idea of the inner critic is something that we all grapple with. I think some people, I think, struggle with it more. Like anybody, I'm human and I struggle with it, especially when I have, you know, some of my relationships, you know, I'm human, and I struggle with it, especially when I have, you know, some of my

relationships, you know, people have not been as strong as they should have been, you know, because I've been pursuing, you know, helping to make Team Red, White, and Blue or helping to, you know, this organization, you know, to be more successful. And so I say I manage my inner critic one by running. So that for me is a really, you know, it's a really helpful thing that not just from, you know, the endorphins and all that, but it gives me that time and that space to think. That's so funny. I often ask endurance-based athletes, what are you running to or from? Yeah, totally.

Okay, so you use fitness and exercise as a way to, I don't know, not necessarily quiet the inner critic, but give space to have the conversation, it sounds like. Absolutely. And there's no doubt about that, that not just physical fitness, but for me running, because running is what gives me that space, you know, that just other things don't. Now, my running, I'm very, you know, I'm not mindful in the sense of like, you know, like yoga, but I'm very much, you know, in those moments, deeply reflective. And just, you know, like yoga, but I'm very much, you know, in those moments, deeply reflective and, and just, you know, getting running. I tend to be more positive and that critic of myself tends to be a little more positive and easier on myself, but I, but I am very hard, you know, a strong critic of myself. I think of how I do things.

Zero to 10, right? Like how strong 10 being the worst critic you could ever imagine. Yeah. I'm probably an eight, an eight to a nine. Well, that's really high. Yeah. I mean, like, and not, and I don't think in a bad way though. Again, like I think that sometimes in a bad way, there's some people I think who are just such a bad, you know, they're so critical themselves that it just completely crushes their identity and their confidence on, on most given days. For me, you know, I feel that my criticism is more of, well, I need to be doing more because I am so fortunate, you know, with the life that I've had in the life that I lead. And that all these experiences have been, you know, afforded to me and poured into me and,

you know, that I, I owe, you know, deeper impact, I owe more. And to me, I think that's where a lot of my, you know of that inner critic for me comes from is that. And so I'm able to, I think, really rationalize with that critic to say, no, like, look, you're doing your best, you're working hard, you're really trying to prioritize all your relationships in your life, the ones that are the most important to you. But at the same time, knowing that I think that that inner critic, as long as it's, while it might be strong, as long as it can be discussed, you know, with an irrational way, I think it can be a very helpful thing. Okay. So that's how you deal with it. You have a rational conversation

with the petulant inner voice that you're not doing enough, damn it. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. And then where did, two questions on that. How much sleep are you getting? And where did that voice come from? Interesting evolution. So when I was in the early days of Team Red, White, most part, for at least for me in the roles that I was in, I did not get much sleep, I'd say five, five and a half hours, you know, a night, maybe six, but not much. And really, over the past year, year and a half or so, since transitioning off of active duty in the military, I've begun to get better sleep. And I think that's, you know, that's

something that again, kind of goes to that inner critic, like, well, you can either, you know, like, and whether or not Aristotle actually said it, you know, there's sleep enough in the grave, you know, this idea that this mindset of, well, look, if I'm sleeping, then I'm not working, you know, that I'm not doing more for team red, white and blue, or I'm not doing more, you know, for, you know, for my family. And it took, again, that rational conversation with myself to understand that, look, getting more sleep allows you to bring more of yourself and a more creative self to the table. That's where I had that conversation with myself around, hey, you should not wear your sleep deprivation as a badge of honor.

I think that's the the way the dodo. It really is. Like that bird has flown its coop where a while back, that was a badge of honor to say, you know, I'm running on four hours sleep for two years, whatever, whatever. And I think for highly driven people, we still do a lot. I put myself in that category. We still do a lot, but we're not doing the deep work. We're not doing the most impactful, and to use your word, the most creative thinking, but we're still working. It's just not

the deepest work. Okay. So how do you keep yourself mentally strong? So I think that, you know, when I think about mental strength and, you know, the, the, the, the, our word of resilience comes to my mind immediately, you know, genetically I'm just, I have a high energy level. So I think that that helps in some regards, because, you know, when I might have a bad day, or I might, you know, face something where mental toughness gets shaken, I usually have the energy to sort of pour into something, you know, that that might lift my confidence back up, or might make me, you know, more, you me more engaged. But I think that ultimately, to bolster mental toughness for me, it's an ongoing challenge because life is a process of growth and success, but also setbacks and failures. And I think that one of my favorite frameworks

looking at failure, which is often I think where I do, I think at least most of us really struggle on the mental toughness is like, how do we bounce back from failure or a loss or rejection or denial? Like, you know, when we spend hours and hours producing this grant request for funding, and then it gets turned down, like, you know, basically, like, in a split second, like, how do you bounce back from that? You know, I think that that mental toughness, you know, you really, in many ways need to have the capacity to turn, you know, to either turn to other people, those relationships in your life who can remind you that no, no, no, like it's okay. Like they didn't pick you up. You struggled here, you failed there, but that doesn't change the fact that, you know, you're going to do it, that you're going to make it. And so I think a lot of the

mental toughness and resilience boils down to who do you allow into your life? And, and where, you know, are those relationships that you have with people, because if they're strong, and if you're surrounding yourself with the right people, you know, they're going to be there for you to help you bounce back from those setbacks or failures. If you're left to do it on your own, in many cases, good luck. Because, you know, I think there's limitations, in my opinion, to, you know, to how deeply you yourself can convince, you know, yourself that that failure wasn't really your fault, or, you know, it wasn't that big of a deal. I think that is one of those situations where you really benefit from hearing from other people. If I get technical for a minute,

because I know you have some training in positive psych, are you connected to the three Cs of hardiness? Is that a model that you work from? Having a high commitment and taking care of other people and committing to difficult situations, controlling what you can control and loving up challenge those three C's. Absolutely. Is that a model that you're working from? Yeah, absolutely. I love and I love that

framework. And I've, you know, read it. And I've seen, you know, you, you know, obviously, a lot of work you've done around that and shared with people. But like, you know, I absolutely believe like in that idea of, you know, the power of controlling what you can control. And that is such a, that is a lifelong endeavor to, to really embrace that mindset. For me, you know, there might be some people who can master it at a younger age, but you know, it absolutely is an incredibly powerful way of looking at the world and, and our successes and failures within it. Okay. So you do so much and give so much. Are you able to switch off? I struggle with switching off. I got I've been researching and written an entire book about the

importance of solitude and of the importance of it. I do think that I'm able to switch off when honestly, in many ways, when I'm able to remove, you know, the stimuli of the internet, you know, so my phone, my computer, when I able to like leave that like in a drawer in my room, or, you know, in my office, like I got a computer now that like I'm talking to you on is, you know, it's in my office, I used to have a laptop that I would keep on my lap. In the first, you know, three, four years in team, I had a laptop on my lap. And it came with me sort of everywhere, like my wife, I'd be watching TV. And, you know, Blue, I had a laptop on my lap and it came with me sort of everywhere. Like my wife and I would be watching TV and I'd be on my laptop, like half watching TV, half talking to her, half doing work.

So I think that for me, the key has been to remove that stimuli of the phone and of the Internet, because ultimately when I'm not able to do that, there's the volume of inputs coming in through email and Facebook and Twitter, you know, and just the volume of things like me reading on the computer, right? Like I can be, you know, listening to podcasts, I can be reading articles. So I've tried to become much more deliberate about where I spend my time in those ways so that I am able to step back and to turn off. And when I do so, I do so in a very calculated way. Okay, so where do you see veterans in the next seven to 10 years? I think, you know, when you look at the veteran community in our country, so there's still about 2 million living veterans from the greatest generation, you know, World War II that are still alive, and they're in their late 80s and in their 90s and into even their 100s. I think a lot of them will pass on in the next 10 years.

And I think that when I look at veterans, I think that you're going to see a lot of veterans who will be running successful small businesses. There's been a big push recently, it's been the past five years, to really challenge and inspire veterans to be entrepreneurial. And I'm seeing a lot of them. So in my community, all three of the big breweries, local breweries, are owned by veterans. I see a lot of veterans doing different stuff in the clothing world, the jewelry world. So I think in 10 years from now, you're going to see a lot of veterans who have built from an idea, you know, pretty, you know, stable mainstay for profit and not for profit organizations in American society. And I do think

that in 10 years from now, you will start to see an increased number of veterans who start to run for local, state and federal office. I think that a lot of veterans, especially who served in Iraq or Afghanistan, who are in their 30s and let's say even into their 40s right now, that that same sense of service and putting the country first. You're bullish on the future for veterans. I am. Absolutely. On all facets, government, non, for profit. I think that there's going to be a large percentage of them that really are very successful and highly influential in our society and in our communities. Cool. All right. So where can we find POS project.org. You know, that's our site. And we're on social media on all those, the character and leadership center, you know, it's character

leadership.center. And again, social media for those and then team red, white and blue. You know, where I'm just the chairman now, but you know, is, you know, team rwb.org. So those are the three places, three different organizations that I'm, you know, involved in, in varying capacities, but our websites, our social media, our web, you know, are both great places to connect and learn more about any of it. Okay, last question. In your words, how do you articulate mastery? How do I articulate mastery? I believe that mastery is for each of us achieving the very best version of ourselves and doing so in a way that balances our achievements and our success with our relationships and our sense of purpose. And so to me, it's really, it's a blend.

And certainly being a master of anything that you do involves being successful at it. But I think that to me, mastery also has a heavy component of, well, how have you been successful? Because no matter how successful you are as an individual, you've only gotten there because of all the various people that have poured into you and have helped to shape you. And therefore, maintaining amid someone who truly embodies mastery, does not achieve the highest level of what they do at all costs. They do so at a cost, but not at all costs. Again, their role in society and

their relationships with others. Wow. All right, Mike. So good. So I think that what you've shared with us is phenomenal. So I just want to say thank you for carving out the time that you spent today to be able to help us understand what you're doing. Well, absolutely. It's been, again, Mike, a real honor to be able to sit down with you and discuss these things that are so important. And as you know, finding the time to sit back and really think and have conversations about this stuff is critically important to not just understanding ourselves better, but understanding some of our areas where we can improve and some of the areas where we've done really well. And again, this has been a very informative and helpful call just for me to talk through some of this and also hear your analysis and what you've heard and observed.

So I appreciate it. Love it. Okay, so let's do it. So hit us up on findingmastery.net find us on social at Michael Gervais hit up Mike Irwin at Irwin RWB on social and then for those of you who are connected to this also find us on our community so it's finding mastery.net forward slash community and then if you can head over to iTunes and write a review it helps and keep traction and. And I want to thank everybody for investing in themselves to invest in others. And then with that, I want to thank everyone for being part of this and bringing fuel and fire and love into our lives. And Mike, thanks again. Thanks a lot, Mike. All right, take care.

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