Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Authenticity, Relationships, and Mastery | Volleyball Coach, Dr. Marv Dunphy

Episode Date: March 31, 2021

This week’s conversation is with Dr. Marv Dunphy, widely recognized as one of the premier coaches in the history of the sport of volleyball.He directed Pepperdine to four NCAA men’s volleyball titles and concluded his 34th and final season as the Waves’ head coach in 2017. He remains involved with the program as its head coach emeritus.Marv also had a long, successful coaching tenure with the U.S. National Team. The American squad maintained a No. 1 world ranking during his time as coach in the 1980s and the team won every major international tournament: the 1985 World Cup, the 1986 World Championships, the 1987 Pan American Games and, most importantly, the 1988 Olympic Games in Seoul, South Korea.Since then, he has been an assistant coach for the men’s team at the 2000 Olympics and a consultant coach at the 1996, 2004 and 2008 Olympics. In 2012, Marv served as a consultant coach in London for the silver-medal winning women’s squad and most recently, in 2016, he was a scouting coach for the women’s team, helping the team to a bronze-medal finish.We had the pleasure of rooming together during those 2016 Olympic games in Rio and I’m hoping this conversation gives you the opportunity to get to know Marv the way I got to know him then.In this conversation, we discuss what great leadership looks like and what separates the outliers from the rest of the pack. _________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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But I think it's easier to see these proactive athletes. And they're really rare. There's like one in 10,000. It's easier to see them and find them than it is to develop them. Okay, welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais, and by trade and training, I am a sport and performance psychologist. And on a weekly basis, I get to sit down with extraordinary people to understand their psychology, to understand how they organize their inner life, to better

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premier coaches in the history of the sport of volleyball. He's a legend. You might not have heard his name or if you're not involved in volleyball, but if you're in the volleyball world, which is one of the top three to seven sports, depending on which list you look at, across the planet. So volleyball is one of the most widely played sports, and he's one of the legends in there. little bit of background. He directed Pepperdine to four NCAA men's volleyball titles and concluded his 34th and final season as the Waves head coach in 2017. He remains involved with the program as its head coach emeritus. And so what does that mean? It means that he is a guide. He's a sage. He is somebody that you want around because the knowledge that he has come to understand and the wisdom that he has harvested is incredible. And Marv has also had a successful and long coaching tenure with the U.S. national team.

So the way that U.S. national team works is the best and the brightest in the United States of America are competing for X number of spots to one day make a world championship team or an Olympic team. And I was fortunate enough to work with him heading into the Rio games. And he's got this ability just to be present and make people better. It's extraordinary. He makes people better because of what he sees in them. And when people look at Marv, they're reminded of two things. One, excellence is the standard. And two, I have it within me and I just got to keep chipping and trying and figuring it out, trusting myself, keep going, figuring out, chipping in, trying, you know, and he's just got this beautiful ability to remind people that the process is amazing.

And so excellence is the standard and the process and the insights that one already holds is the path. And he and I got to roommate with each other down in Rio for the games. It was just like, I was like a kid in the candy store. Like it was unbelievable being able to sit with him on bus rides and, you know, just spend so much deep time in conversation with him. It was just really, it was one of those lifetime kind of incredible things. So I'm so happy to introduce Marv to this conversation and we discuss what great leadership looks like and what separates the outliers from the rest of the pack. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with the legend, Dr. Marv Dunphy.

Marv, how are you? Doing great. How are you feeling? Yeah, good. You know, I think that it feels to me as though the timing and the climate that we're in right now that it's still hard. It's still difficult for folks. Stress is really high, but it feels like we're just turning the corner on some stuff. So, you know, like you, I'm an ever optimist. So, you know, sometimes that works really well and sometimes, you know, it's hard. But I'm looking forward to the changes that are taking place. Yeah.

You know, I would say this in sport, it's the stress comes from the uncertainty of the outcome. You know, if you knew you're going to win, there wouldn't be much stress. And if you knew that you're going to lose, unless your job's on the line, there's not too much stress. But it's that uncertainty of the outcome that makes it a sport that's kind of special. Let's pull on that thread. But first, some context. How many Olympics have you been in? Seven, yeah. I mean, that's a really special number, Marv. You know, like that's so many, I mean, 30 years, 30 some years, 28 years just for the

quads, but like probably 50 years in elite sport, you know, for you. And so let's talk about stress though, because world championships, Olympics being one of the very special ones, has incredible levels of stress. And so right now, if we extrapolate sport into everyday living, there's incredible stress for people. So what have you come to understand about how people do well in conditions of uncertainty that have consequences on the line. And when you've put everything into being your very best, maybe possibly being one of the best in the world, and it's not going the way you hoped, not going the way you planned, what have you learned? You know what, actually, because in sport, you have so much prep, and you're basically in the arena,

and you know what it takes, and you're familiar with it. And so quite often, for me, it's stay the course. And I remember prior to the 88 Olympics, we were waiting to play the Russians, and Brazil was going five sets with Argentina. And we didn't know, is it going to go three and we're on? Is it going to go four and we're on and so on and so forth. And one of our great players, Craig Buck, came up to me and said, Penny, for your thoughts. And I said, Craig, I said, you know, not only are we better than this team,

we're 15 or 20% better than anybody in the world. And I just can't wait to show it. And, you know, all of a sudden, bam, bam, you know, he's high-fiving me and all excited. And I think, you know, your preparation, I think, is the key. And you got to fall back on some of that. And, and of course, you know, with the COVID thing, you know, I think we can all handle change, but as long as it's on our schedule, and when it's not on our schedule, like this thing, then, you know, we, we tend to struggle a little bit with that uncertainty. And then, so when you talk about training and preparation, it's one way to think about it, like, oh, you know, yeah, you get to train and physically and technically, and you get to prepare for in sporting environments, but we don't get that in life. And I know you're going to say, no, that's not the case. So when you think about training for life, preparing for life, which is always unfolding right now,

how do you think about preparing or being prepared for the uncertainty of now? Because now is always uncertain. Boy, that's a good question. How do you prepare for it? Well, one thing is you, I would say, we live in a fire zone, right? And a couple of years ago, it was tight action for us. And I go back to the prep the only reason

that the the house made it uh was the prep that i had done over the years and that's the only reason i stayed and uh but also the uh you know that situation was fairly chaotic where there you know we weren't in control and we also want to be in control of things. But part of the, part of that is that I think it's, you know, adversity is going to happen and, uh, uh, both in sport and life. And, uh, and we, we, to a certain extent have to kind of embrace it. And, uh, um, I've been in some situations in sport where you know the i don't know the lights are half on and uh and things aren't going well and uh and then i've shared with the team or i've been on a staff or somebody shared with them hey this is uh what we had planned for and it was some adversity and we kind of embraced it and then deal with it as

best you can. And just to level set, you were you live in a fire zone meaning in Southern California you're right through a highly trafficked fire area and you prepared for that fire or fires in general by grooming, by keeping your your lawn and surrounding area moist and wet and, you know, having good roots so that things don't light up around you and then light up your house as well. And so that's the preparation you're talking about for the fire. Is that right? Absolutely. Yeah. And then the preparation for life, I hear you saying, okay, well, adversity is happening. It's going to happen.

So when it does happen, yeah, you know, part of it is like you got to go, okay, well, this is it. And I think so many people would say, yeah, I do that. But then maybe aren't their very best or even maybe, you know, 50% away from their very best. And their very best is really demonstrated by towards their highest self, towards their most animated virtues that they're able to express or move or convey in some kind of way, words, thoughts, and actions coming together towards

their very best value propositions. Because what happens under stress is they revert back to a level of unconditioning, right to the choke point, if you will. So when you think about preparing for life, I know that you have high principles, and clear principles that you're living by. What are some of them that have been materially important in sport and in life for you? Oh, wow. Uh, you know, a few things, uh, Mike, I think, uh, you know, the, the foolish athletes,

I think they have all the time in the world to get something in place and to get good at something. And the elite athletes have this really neat sense of urgency. It's not just about today. It's about right now. And they never do anything that hurt their chances of winning. And, you know, each moment counts, you know, you don't waste your days. And I'm not saying that just because I'm an old guy, you know, it's, I've always felt that. What I hear you saying is like, there's a sense of urgency to do what? To get better, I would imagine.

But if we double click under that, what do you care most about when you're working with an athlete or a team, like helping them get better at what? Yeah. Well, I think most of the progress I've made as a coach hasn't been know, 12 or 18 people in front of me and say, Hey, top down, here's how we're going. It's, uh, for me, it's been my ability to, uh, work with the individual. And I will say this individuals never lose the desire to be treated as individuals. And, uh, and having said that, I think athletes are happiest where they're improving. And I try to get a little something for everybody. It's harder at the high end because the improvements are so small. And they know, maybe I'm digressing here a little bit, they know if I care.

But that's one of the core principles, or two of them at least. One is people want to be treated as individuals. They want to be part of something special, but they want to be treated as individuals, which means that to do that, you have to see them. And I think the second principle is that you're working from is that they have to know that I care. Not only that I see them, but convey that in some way to know that I really care about them. I care about their individual nature. I care about the way that they fit into this shared vision. And I care about how they're going to become the better version, the upgraded version, the higher performing version of themselves.

Does that sound close? Mike, you hit it. They know if you care. I would say this. You can fool a fool. You can con a con, but you can't kid a kid. They know exactly how you feel about them. The best way is to be real, be authentic, and have tough conversations with them. And along the way, I've had really tough conversations where I've had to say to a handful

of young people, hey, I don't believe in you as a player or as a person, and here's why. And they had done some things, lying, not telling the truth to themselves, to their parents and uh with me and uh i said but you're gonna earn your degree and uh you're gonna finish playing here and so on and so forth and uh um and and i said am i right you know how do you perceive how i feel about you and it's right on you know and uh yeah yeah you get it yeah but they know they're going back to they they know if you care and uh uh and you you make a lot of headway with that and i i was listening or reading something steve alfred said about bobby knight and i always think that

you know there's this perception you know pretty tough pretty and uh uh but i think uh you you can almost i mean not dehumanize an individual but you can get after him pretty good uh i think as long as you care and steve alford was saying that in the recruiting process bobby knight said hey you're gonna uh i'm gonna develop you as a player you're gonna play for championships you're gonna be with uh uh good good people and uh you're gonna have a friend for life and you know that kind of hit home I I didn't perceive that uh uh in everything I've seen and heard about Bobby Knight but if that he perceived that as real a friend for life and uh uh then i you know i think you know i'm not analyzed about me night but he could probably get away with some stuff um

you know that as long as he cared yeah we had the privilege of working together on the same team and for the 2016 olympic games and um we also had the privilege of being roommates. Roommates matter. You haven't let me live that down. That is so funny. And for folks that are listening, you, you've we, one of the highlights of the games for me was spending time with you and being in the same room with you and listening, how you think and how you, your worldview. And, and then you probably wouldn't

know this cause you're in your own body, but the way that people respond to you and it is, you have this balance between, um, truth, credibility, authenticity, you said all those words already, but it comes with this reverence and this appreciation and this affinity for you, as opposed to a fear or a critique or a shying away because you're going to give the hard truth and it's going to be scratchy and prickly and potentially damaging. And so if there was a balance that you're looking for between two principles that don't seem to work together, but you've got your arms around those two things in harmony, what would those two principles be? Because it's remarkable how people respond to you. And, and you're also given the truth. Maybe when I was first, you know, coaching, I would look at, I didn't get a lot from my parents growing up, right? I, they went into another part of, you know, the area where we live to work, and I went the other way to go to school, and so it was,

you know, neighbors and teachers and coaches, and I kind of learned from them, but one of the things that I saw along the way, maybe we've all seen it, is, and maybe it's a question for you, this, you know, fear to motivate, ease and punishment to motivate. So that, along the way, that never worked for me. What I always felt is with young people, you have to show them and tell them. And then there's, as they mature, you know, there's guided discovery. And then, you know, at the level that we were at in the rio olympics with those athletes it's it's mutual exploration and respect and it's respect all along the way but i i guess

uh i never um i've never felt uh that i can make too much progress with using fear or punishment because that kind of causes, you know, them to be cautious and doubt. And that's exactly the opposite of what you want. And when in athletes and you want them to feel bulletproof, but it has to be real, but you want them to feel bulletproof. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company.

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and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. When you're helping an athlete prepare for a competition or a shared goal or shared vision, what are some of the, not physical or technical skills, but what are some of the, not physical or technical skills, but what are some of the states? And I don't want to even cloud the question too much, but what are some of the skills

from the mental side or states of being that you're trying to get them on? You just said like bulletproof. But if you dug underneath that a little bit, what's inside of you that you're trying to build inside of them? I think everything we do as a coach, uh, is to, uh, really to get them to train at the level they need to, in order to be good or to be great. And I think, uh, uh, you alluded to some things not that i had any magical qualities but some not really nice things and like i'm pretty basic i'm pretty simple

and uh uh you know i think the uh there's standards for everything that we do and uh standards of behavior and uh you know, obviously in sport. And to make somebody bulletproof and confident is they have to know what reality is. And, you know, I think the military trains to reality. And I think that we do that also uh with our preparation and the only way to make them confident and you know toward bulletproof is say hey here's what the standards are and we try to meet those standards as best we can and uh it's not it's on an individual basis and uh that's the only way to make them more confident. In other words, we can't, in our sport, somebody that receives serve,

if we just roll them easy balls and toss balls all the time, and then we get into the arena and somebody from Russia or China is drilling something, the reality at them, what have we done? So what are the standards? Are you holding them to a global standard or are you holding them to the standard that you have seen as a potential for them? Yeah.

At the NCAA level, for example, or the international level, or whatever level you're at, I look at the championship standards. What have the top four teams done in each statistical category? And we say, hey, that's the standard that we have to approach. And for years, I would track, and it would be top to bottom. Here's the, you know, the best in our team, you know, obtaining those standards. But what I found is that all of a sudden here's, you know, some guys that are younger or maybe haven't evolved yet.

And they're looking at this rank order. So what I did, what we did actually is we put, you know, green, you know, their individual progress toward that standard. Green, if they were close, they were there getting close. Yellow, if, you know, they're medium. And then red, if they're not obtaining that. And then we dealt with that on an individual basis. And that was, I found that to be much, much better. You know, we were helping that

individual get better. And like I said, I think individuals, you know, are happiest when they're improving. And I think that helped. Okay. So to be super clear in my head is that you'd have, you'd know what the percentage of serve receive needs to be, for example, for based on the world standard or the top four in whatever league you're in. And you say, right, okay, Joey or Jane, you're X minus that. So, you know, you're X minus that. So, you know, you're yellow and then you would build a plan out individually with that athlete to be able to get them closer to the world. Absolutely. And that plan is, uh, is huge. And they're part of that too.

And not digressing the goal setting here, but, uh, I like to say, Hey, what are your goals? And then, uh, whether it's technical tactical physical you know life or whatever and uh and then i i like to uh have them do that and i do it independent of them and you know what what do they have going for them and we should always maximize our our strengths right and uh and somewhat hide our weaknesses but But then I'll say, what, what are, in your opinion, what are the blocking forces? What, what is preventing you from going there? And I'll do the same. And then we compare it. We've done it independently. Then we make it, we get together and compare. And then we take the most significant,

always maximize our strengths, right? But sometimes we have to work on something that we perceive as blocking. And then we do an action plan, who, what, where, how, you know, why, and then, hey, have we arrived? And it's worked for me. And this is a standard practice, which is, you know, the fancy phrase for it is performance profiling. So you'll sit with somebody, you'll say, right, what are your strengths? What are your goals? And then they're going to give you the strengths basically. Right. And then based on their strengths, I should say, and then you have a second click and you say, what are some of the blockers that are getting your way? And then you're writing your list.

They're writing their list for both of these. You share and compare. And then you developed a master plan. Yeah. And what's interesting, Mike, is that quite often what we perceive and what they perceive as preventing them from going where they want to go, we're different. And I've always felt that, hey, we're on the same page. You know, this athlete knows. But then all of a sudden there's a curveball.

The athlete wants to be better at something that probably is, in my opinion, not as important. But before we leave that, I think, you know, you're very well read and you know all about vision and dreams and plans and goals and storytelling, folklore, you know, I think all that is good. And I think, you know, versus top-down lecture, here's the way to do it. I think sometimes that if if we if i if we as a staff value certain behaviors or we don't value uh certain behaviors uh they'll pick up on that and i think that's a really strong that that comes from a strong place those type of things and so how did you just tie in goal setting with folklore and storytelling well uh you know we we had a player here he was king kong he was george romain the biggest strongest athlete that i've

ever been around and i always thought i'd lose him to the nfl uh to the combine because he was that physical and that good and we we would uh so here's a young person that's wanting to lift right and uh we tell him about when george got here he was like this and then he did this and and i don't need i think the uh uh this young athlete wants to you know uh kind of like me when i was first coaching hey i'm going to coach like john wooden i'm going to be marv wooden you know and uh uh and they're motivated by something that you know is viewed as positive by the staff you You are amazing at stories. And so I hear you weaving that in,

and I'm wondering if that is one of your main teaching modalities. Of course you're going to point out like, hey, keep your elbow in or rotate your hip this way or keep your frame that way, whatever technical cues that you're working on. But you are legendary with stories. So I'm going to ask you a bunch of stories, but before we get into that, is that, can we talk about your relationship with John Wooden? Oh boy, yeah, so growing up in Southern Cal,

like I said, I gravitated towards coaches and just kind of like, hey, what goes and what doesn't go, you know? And I always admired, you know, the athletes on his teams and his teams. But I think early on at some point in time, I, I started looking at coaches a little bit differently. And actually I had a, a coaching class at Pepperdine where I got to, it was kind of like, hey, it wasn't a high academic course, but part of it was to take two or three days and observe, I think it was four coaches. And it was Tartanian at Long Beach, I visited with him, and then Wooden at UCLA, and Boy at SC and the Northridge coach and uh I was very interested in

how they did things and uh and that was you know uh a on my doctorate and coursework was okay, but I couldn't get going on a dissertation. And I talked to the chair of the department and he said, well, what would you really like to know? And I said, I just want to know how the great coaches coach and the coaching process. And so we designed a study with uh uh to you know seek out somebody that like wouldn't and uh luckily uh he agreed and and i met with him for several days and uh taped it all and uh ended up with 1300 pages triple spaced and And it was just every minute of it was awesome. And I think,

you know, talking about stories, everything that I asked him, I kept thinking, man, that's going to be on my wall, you know, and I would need wooden wallpaper because he was that great. And sometimes, Mike, as you know, when you get closer to somebody, you say, oh, this individual had a great AD or lots of money or it was the talent. But I knew with my time with him that I was in the presence of greatness every single minute. And even, you know, probably to the day he passed, everybody that I come in contact with would have a wooden story. When you were with him and you were soaking up the information, there's two ways that information comes in, right? There's a sense and a feeling that happens. And there's also the knowledge or the information that's flowing from a more technical standpoint. And so were you more enamored with the frameworks

and the structure of his thinking or the way that you felt around him? And maybe it's not an and or, maybe it's yes, both, but what, what was it when you were with him that jumped out the most? Cause I do want to get to some of the frameworks, you know, some of those brilliant insights that I'm more interested in, not his insights, cause we can read his book, but the way that you've applied or created from his insights, your insights. I knew that he was interested in my project and that he was listening and that I was not intimidated, but I felt so wonderful in his presence. And he had a way of making me feel comfortable and like I was bulletproof. And had over 100 questions. And I think at the end of the day, we went from nine to three the first day.

I think he had only covered six, five or six of the topics. And so he was good at what he did, and also what he would ask me, is that what you were looking for? And so I guess to answer your question, both. He was wonderful in that uh uh environment for me and you know i i enjoyed every minute when you are translating that to your athletes because i felt it from you marv um you when i'm around you and even in this conversation, somehow you remind me that you value me, like the way that you communicate the words you choose, the cadence,

there's a delicateness to the way that you do it, but not, not, not in a fragile way, but so how do you do it? How do you help others feel special? And maybe one of the stories is you could say how he did it for you, but I'm really interested how you do it? How do you help others feel special? And maybe one of the stories is you could say how he did it for you, but I'm really interested how you do it for others. Well, like I said, I don't know if I could answer that. I'll just start with another wooden story. So years after, you know, I spent time with him. It was a Saturdayurday morning i'm here in the office i'm in right now and uh what i like to do during the week sometimes it gets too busy and i was i read

this article one time about it was the magic of a note so on saturday mornings i'd always write notes uh to people and uh and let them know how i really feel. And so it's probably about, I don't know, eight o'clock, something like that. And the lights aren't on, I'm writing away, whatever, I haven't shaved and so on and so forth. And there's a knock at the door and I pick up the trash can because it's the custodian, right? And I hand the trash can to John Wooden. And I said, Coach Wooden, that camp doesn't start until nine. And it was eight o'clock and he goes, well, you know how I feel about time. And so he, he, he just never stopped, you know, ceasing to amaze me. Well, anyway, what happened was he said, he said, slide on over here or roll on over here and tell me how you're doing.

Well, I rolled my chair over and he pulled the chair right next to him. And he actually got right in my, he got too close. He got right in my space. And I love the guy. And, but I was kind of, you know, uneasy, uneasy and asked, what am I going to do here? Do I tell coach wouldn't, you know, move away or whatever. I just took a deep breath. Like we should always do maybe a couple of them. And it was the best 20 minutes of that year.

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slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Okay, so let me take a left turn. You're one of the great coaches, and I'm so honored to know you and have this conversation with you and all the other ones we've ever had. What are you trying to sort out? You've been at this profession

in a world-leading way for a long time. Like, what do you, what are you trying to sort out as a, as a human on this earth? For a long time, it was, you know, trying to be the very best that I could be, but also being the very best for the players under me. And the only true pressure that I felt along the way is, am I doing what we need to do in order to be good?

And I don't know if it's sorted out. And I'm going to digress here a little bit. More than anything, I want to be a good dad and, you know, a good neighbor. And then I want to help the people that I work with, come in contact with, and the young people or old people. So for me, maybe it's not sorting out. It's just, uh, you know, always searching for, uh, ways to, you know, connect with, uh, people. And, uh, and, you know, I think we always feel good, uh, about, you know, seeing the light go on for a young athlete or a young coach. And that's why I asked the question because you're so busy in being there for others

and creating that space for them to explore and to light up and to examine some truth. And when Coach Wooden did that to you and he got you in an uncomfortable state and you felt it and you still went for it. And it was an amazing part of your year, maybe your life as we're talking about it now. Like that, I just, and maybe sorting out isn't the right word.

Maybe it is like purpose. And it sounds like your purpose is to help others. And maybe that's just too simple for the way it sounds, but the depth of that is really evidenced by the way that you've conducted your life. So helping others, not only through sport, but just being there. And then if I pause for a minute, being there, and if you filled the rest in, how would you fill that in? Being there to help them along their way if they perceive it worthy. In other words, I don't want to put, I don't know, tell somebody how to live their life or, you know, a coach how to coach.

I don't do that. I've been around here for a while and seen lots of coaches come and go. But if there's a two-way exchange, I'm all for it. But I don't want to tell somebody, hey, here's how to do it. That high regard that you have for others, Coach Wooden had an incredible high regard for others as well,

as I've come to learn just from a distance. Did you have that modeled as a, your parents are in your family somewhere, or did you come to learn that a harder way? Yeah. You know, you know, I, my mom was kind. I loved her. My dad was a good guy, but know, my mom was kind. I loved her. My dad was a good guy. But I got it from, I sought it's in control of this group. And, and then I, and watching Wooden, it was, I really admired and, and his demeanor. And, and like I said, I think when I first started coaching,

I tried to be Marv Wooden, but that didn't last a day or whatever. You've got to be yourself, but you can, I think, right. You know, you, you asked me at one point, Hey Marv, did you, did you write a book or an article or this and that? And, and I honestly said, I could never do that because I think as, as coaches, especially we, we, you know we always are stealing from others. And I would know, I think after a while it becomes yours, right? Even though you stole it.

But I wouldn't know. And I want to give credit to the people I got it from. So I've never really done anything formal in terms of writing. It's unbelievable to me. It's never lost on me the depth that you hold, the deep understanding. And I hear that you want to credit everyone that you've ever learned from. But at some point, like you said, it's yours. You've embodied it you know

but putting it down on paper almost falls so short um to the to the actual thing that it is and i don't know if you're familiar with the 10 000 moons you know the zen cone or the zen parable 10 000 moons uh keep going yeah so there's one moon. And not to be confused with the 10,000 reflections in the ponds and the puddles and the lakes and the ocean that people can see. It's so easy to be confused by the 10,000 moons while at the same time missing the source, the one source.

And so I think so many of us are pointing at the 10,000 moons. And I think you and there's handfuls of folks like you that point to the source. And you're saying, hey, listen, I'm not sure I can put language around it and put it into a structure that would be meaningful. But you got to know the source. And so that's me layering on some of my observations of you. And if you were to try in a non-pithy way to say, hey, while I can't get the whole thing, here's a couple elements that are absolutely part of the truth. Call it your core philosophy, your core principles for helping

people, you know, be better. What are some of those? Because we start them off. You had, you had, we had one about truth. We had one about authenticity. We had one about a plan and working the plan. You know, you have another one that you just mentioned in reverse order, which was, you know, I don't want to take somebody or give somebody advice. You know, I want to take somebody somewhere they don't want to go. And, you know, so there's a regard for their journey or adventure. Those are definitely five big, big rocks to get in the container here. What are some other ones that are true to you that have been materially important for you? Yeah, I have to think on that for a minute. And one of the things, Mike, in finding mastery,

I think it's kind of like the same thing. My first thought when I got invited, and really nice of you to talk with your roommate here. Finding mastery, my thinking was it's easier to find it or to see it than it is to develop it. Oh, no one's ever said that. What's that? No one's ever said that.

God, that rings true. Yeah. So one of the things that we've talked about a little bit is how much do people change? And it's not much. Then we go back to how they view the world. And I'm not a development person, you know, like growth and development, but it's, I think it's easier to see these proactive athletes and they're really rare. There's like one in 10,000. It's easier to see them and find them than it is to develop them.

And, and, you know, when, when you say a lead athlete, there's probably a few that has come to mind right now for you and, and for me. And yeah, it's just, and so here's my question to you, Mike, you said this was a conversation. So how much, how much do people change? Yeah, this goes, this brings me right back to Rio. I know we talked about this a bunch. And, I mean, there is a spectrum. Some people I have been part of their adventure and their journey of commitment to change, and it's been radical.

And they've done incredible work. And that is rare. I wish it wasn't, Marv. But when we talk about changing the invisible, it's really pretty tough. And so why do I say the invisible? Because the invisible is the stuff when you and I are talking about change, like change from the inside. Psychology is completely invisible. We might be able to change a habit. We might be able to change some, you know, behaviors. Those are, you know, we can do that. We can set plans together and we can do that. But when you and I are talking about this, it's like fundamental change and personality reordering in some ways. It is possible, but it's incredibly hard. So how many people do that? I'm going single digits.

How about for you? Yeah, the same. And maybe a significant event, a life-altering event, might initiate some change. But yeah, not much and it's uh you know going back to these uh elite uh and proactive people you know the way they view the world uh and um it's it's really neat it's really refreshing because they they get it and i always ask them you know what did your parents do or what did they not do to have you turn out this way?

Because I see it and it's pretty easy to see. And it's the way that they view kind of like success and failure. They treat them both the same. They learn from, from both. And it's just a neat quality. And we, I have to tell you this one story. We had this guy here named Mike Fitzgerald and we're here being at Pepperdine men's volleyball, and we're about ready to compete for a national championship, you know, maybe a week or so away. And I get a call from a teacher says, I need to talk to you about one of your players. And I said, Oh, you know, I was thinking the worst, you know, and, and then she said,

he told this person that we're playing UCLA tomorrow night at seven. You got to be there. He told everybody in the class and he told me too, that it's in the Firestone Fieldhouse. You have to be there. He told everybody in the class and he told me too, that it's in the Firestone Fieldhouse. You have to be there. And I was relieved that it wasn't anything bad. And I said, well, tell me, how's he doing in your class? And she said, that's the problem. He's not in my class. And, you know, he was, he believed in himself so much that he was getting this whole university to come to this event and uh it wasn't a surprise when he was here in the nc toy we were second second first first and this guy wasn't king kong future olympian all-american he was just this guy that got it and uh boy if you

get people like uh him around you you know the best thing about coaching is you get to choose the people you go through life with. And boy, I've been pretty lucky to be around some people like him. When it's all said and done and you're and um you're you're no longer coaching formally coaching um what do you imagine when you look back you'll say i did that pretty damn well and what do you imagine you look back and say kind of screwed that part up oh yeah well the first my first thought is uh growing up where i grew up and how I grew up, I never imagined I would be with such good people and have the results that I've been lucky to be part of. I never would have thought of that. So people say, hey, what would you do differently if you could change it? And I wouldn't do anything differently because it turned out good. I think the first thing that comes to mind is probably not that I failed, but I didn't

have the courage to make some tough decisions and uh uh that you know stuck with me and uh you know at with you know what with one olympic team uh waiting too long to tell the player he wasn't one of the 12. i waited too long i was just using the art of delay and uh i i wish i had done it sooner because uh you know the the family was all ticketed and ready to go and uh and you know i you're talking about the sport or life in in life i i think i uh i was thinking that uh at one time, a friend was in trouble and we, I was part of an intervention team and it got put off. And it all of a sudden, within a week, he took his life and we, I should have been better for him. But I don't know if we had changed the course,, but it was not acting as aggressively as I should.

Is that because you were busy? Or was that because you didn't maybe get the urgency? Or was there some sort of fear, blowback that he's not going to be cool with it or denial? Yeah, a few things. One is that, uh, the, uh, the experts with this one outfit said that we don't think that this is going to work and, uh, we want to give it, uh, a little more time. And, uh, and I was thinking, you know, we have to act, and we didn't. But that was kind of on me. And, yeah, I think, you know, also I'm thinking one time when I failed to use good judgment is when I was the head coach for the USA team.

And we were playing in this thing called the USA Cup prior to the Olympics and or prior to the world championships and we lost to Cuba right and we knew that at the world championships we were going to face them in the second round and we when we lost the match they had asked us for an old VHS tape of the match. And we, our staff had said, yes. And, uh, and then at the end of the tournament, uh, the USA cup, we, um, uh, we said, Hey, look, whenever we go there and we need something that we were pretty, uh, pretty good rivals. Right. And, uh, uh, then we decided, and I was part of the decision not to give them that tape. And we drew straws and one of us, you know, delivered a bogus tape.

And that I was part of that. And and we we played them in the second round of the world championships and it was tight and we won but that's always kind of not at me and uh um and i i made a change i was a semi-old dog you know uh but uh ever since and sometimes i'll go and do a gym now and uh well not recently but along the way after that and i'd find a scouting report on us right and i i'd say to the staff i said go give that to the coaches and uh uh because i i knew that i was trying to write it wrong you know you give it to the other yeah give it back and just say hey you left this and not for it wasn't for us and they made a mistake and yeah and so So that was like a

nod on your character, right? I failed to make that, yeah. At the right time when you're in the arena, anybody can say and do things. But when you're in the arena, that's when it counts. What do you wish over the decades of being leading and being part of elite teams?

And I say elite, and I hesitate even when I say elite, because it conjures up like better than others in an elitist way. But I just mean like true high performing world leading clubs. What do you wish that people that are wanting to be their very best, maybe it's for their family, maybe it's for their sport team that they're on, but they're younger and they're hungry and they're searching. They know that they have more in them. What would you like to pass? What would you like to, in football, they talk about installing, which is a weird phrase, you know, because we're not, we're not, you know, robots that we're going to install some software.

But if you were to pass on or water a seed and plant it and water it, what would you hope that those seeds would be? Teams are special. And it's something that may, you may never be part of again, and you don't have to win it all to have that feeling, but in some way, shape or form, if they knew how precious those moments collectively are at that,

at a younger age, like I said, it might hasten that urgency to be as good in lots of ways and being a great teammate. And then on top of that, if you win it all, there's the jumping up and down, which is momentary, but there's this long, warm, lasting feeling that at this point in time, we're the best at what we do, and it's just an awesome, awesome feeling. But going back to the team thing, they're special,

and it may never happen again in their lives. They may be a team in business and later in life, but not like it would be with an athletic team, I think. Yeah, there's something really special about it. And on that note, to make it almost silly, is that, you know what I remember as roommates? How bad were those beds? Yeah. I mean, honestly, how bad were those beds yeah i mean honestly how bad were those beds yeah so it's not always this it's not always like you know the game point match point stuff which is awesome right like but when i think back i think about um one is like you know the hotel was a little shoddy you know that we were were at and the beds were awful and we couldn't wait to get up and actually get to the training facility to get out of the hotel.

Yeah, it's that stuff. It's the meals. It's the jokes in the hallways. It's the bus rides. It's trying to solve something that's complicated to solve together um it's it's all of that that i find to be so rewarding and so valuable so i'm honored that i got to do some of that with you but seriously those beds were pretty bad so mike can i throw out a question here yeah i'm totally off topic but uh i remember you you brought up uh us rooming together at the olympics

uh i remember not listening in but how much joy you got out of talking to i think it was your young son and it my guess is he was i don't know five six seven something like that and uh are you a good dad? Oof. Um, my heart swells when you even brought up the, uh, that memory of me, like trying to FaceTime or talk, you know, um, because you know, when you're on a world, um, world event, like a camp, it's what were there three, four weeks three four weeks and um so it's a long time away so when you say i'm my good dad i'll tell you what i pour everything i can and yeah and so my i lead with my heart and um and where i get concerned is um you know, am I doing enough? Am I giving enough? Because I travel, well, this year,

Marv, I didn't travel for 365 days. I haven't been on a plane for a year. And so whatever, this was this amazing gift, Marv, that whatever travel vacancies that, or vacancies that I left because of physical travel. Like, I feel like I got a second, I got an uptake, you know, I got a redo. I got, I got amazing time this year. Um, so that's, that feels really good, but, um, you know, Marv, I worry about it from the sense of like, I want to give everything. And I feel that way about so many people, but it is different with your own son or, you know, I would imagine daughter. I don't have one, but thank you for asking. And like, I want to say a thousand percent.

Yes. So another question, just with our conversation, you said I could do this. The, you know, I say that to everyone and no one ever takes it up but i know you know so uh i i you know five olympics with the men and then a couple with the women and uh people always uh will come up to me and say uh hey marv you were you worked with the men you work with the men, you work with the women, and what's the difference? If I pause for 10, 20, 30 seconds, they tell me the difference. And I get the biggest kick out of it. And once in a while, I'll give my philosophy, but usually they want to say what the difference is. And I don't see what people tell me. And by that, I mean,

a male or female, somebody's either Tony the Tiger or they're not, in my opinion. But I wanted to ask you what your opinion would be on other differences in elite males or elite females. I love the question. I got into some trouble at ESPNW at one point. I was given a talk there. And so this is the women's conference, annual conference. And I got asked that question. I don't want you to get in trouble here. Yeah, no, I mean, but I spoke my truth, you know, but there was some blowback about it. And so there's 400 women in the audience or so, 400 or 500 folks, and maybe another 25 men in the room. Something like that.

It felt like that. And so I was asked that question. I said, you know, when we're talking about the half percenters, gender does not play a difference. Oh, you know, and I felt the room just like, look at me like I was not honoring the difference between men and women and transgender, if that's part of the conversation. And so, but Marv, like you said, and transgender, if that's part of the conversation.

But Marv, you said if they're not Tony the Tiger or not, I see the same thing. When we're talking about the half percenters, there is a relentlessness. There is almost an obsessiveness that I don't wish upon people. There is an anxiousness. There's an unsettledness. There is a scrappiness and a relentless kind of commitment to figure things out. And sometimes the internal destruction is so painful. And sometimes they leave a wake, destruction of people around them. But sometimes it's brilliant and it's beautiful. And those are the folks that I think you and I want to be around. But those ones that are like that unsettledness, that they can figure out how to harness that and bring people along with them, those are the very, very special ones. And then you layer on top of it some raw talent that has been refined over time, that they

are more similar than dissimilar. And I feel like I need a caveat to say gender differences are real. But when we're talking about half percenters, they're more similar than dissimilar. And so I would also say this same to be true, Marv, for the three best in the world for motocross and the three best in the world for volleyball and the three best in the world-class rankings. And so I don't know. That's how I think about it. And yeah, your turn. Because you've been around a lot. Oh, that's exactly the way I see it.

I agree with you. Not just because we're having this conversation. I agree. And I just haven't seen the difference. And, and actually I said, elite athletes, I, at, you know, at sport camps, you know, I used to have big camps of 250 kids and, and I would see, you know, the ones that, you know, like I said, Tony, the tiger male or female, and early on, I'd see that. And that and I just admired it and and I would try to recognize that and pull them out and honor them even early on. And what is Tony the Tiger, what is the emblem there for you? Is it a competitiveness,

an aggressiveness, a feel powerfulness? All of the above and a presence of, yeah, just their presence and alone. And their narrow focus. And actually, you know what? I'm getting into a little voodoo here. They know the probability of success for everything that they do early on. Just like a tennis player, you know, the ones that get it, they probably hit it in by a meter. And then there's others that are hit and miss. And Tony the Tiger wants to battle.

And they don't take unreasonable risk. And they never do anything that hurts their chances of winning, ever. And it's a neat quality. And, you know, there's something that I'm always looking for and it's not something that I can exactly point to, but there's a thing behind the eyes. And some people call it heart or presence, or you you called it, um, um, the space they take up, you know, but there's, for me, there's a thing behind the eyes. And when you see that sparkle, that edge, that, that innerness that is alive,

I go, Oh, look, there's that thing. And so, um, that is gender agnostic. It's not unique to one gender. Yeah, that's awesome. And you know, if somebody has a temper or they get angry, we can fix that. If somebody chokes, you and I can fix that because everybody chokes a little bit and we just need to manage it. It's the ones where there's no drive or no passion. Help me, Rhonda. I have a hard time with, I guess we can make those types functional, but we can never make them champions. I think you're right. And I think that

it's the holding back, the over-commit commitment to a maladaptive response to pressure which is holding back and so that is really hard to undo i would much rather work with somebody that's like you know playing it a little more aggressive and you know the choking and micro choking is actually rare micro choking is more common but i'd much rather work with somebody that like lets it rip and the ball goes long or they're swinging too aggressively or like that's yeah it's not that either one i think we're saying the same thing it's not that either one of them are good or bad because you're still missing by one percent on each side of balance or each side of like the true line but when you start to get two three four

eight twelve degrees off the true line from an anxiousness holding back you know overthinking it does get harder and so not that it's impossible yeah so can we do this kind of just a couple quick hits okay when you think of wellness, wellness is? Being confident in who you are. For me, the most important science is? Actually, the science of modal learning, how we best teach and skill. It all comes down to? Boy, you do the very best you can and either you're good enough or you're not. You learn from it and you move on. The fork in the road for me was actually uh learning the the science of modal learning uh for a long time i coached and i

when i was ever challenged i would say because the russians do it this way or brazil does it. And then once I, I got exposed to Dr. Carl McGowan, who was a scientist in this young field of motor learning, I was able to say why. And, and I wish I had that in year one, but I got that maybe in year five or six. Yeah. The story I tell most is? Probably about my first year of coaching and how I, had I been better, we'd probably had another banner. What got in the way there? That I wasn't, I learned a lot from the two coaches that I played for here.

I got into volleyball late and one of them was a retired military. And I'll never forget. He said, Marv, if you're going to coach, remember this, you get what you tolerate. And I think I was good on with the team stuff. And then the other guy, bless his heart. I love him. But he, I learned more, I guess, what not to do from him. And that was the way he treated people or the way that he structured his day? Yeah, the way he treated people. He would kind of dehumanize some members of the team.

That's something I'll never I'll, I'll never do because that, you know, I saw the, you know, the negative impact. Okay. How about go back to these quick hits? Love is? Oh boy. Caring for your, your fellow human. Relationships are? Relationships are the essence of what I've done in life and in coaching, especially in both. This is a yes or no question.

I'm going to write my book and share it with the world by next year. No? Okay. Probably not, but you never know. Okay. I mean, come on. You got some gems in there. It is time. I'm going to keep riding you. You tell me what I can do to help support you to get that thing out in the world. Yeah, checking in.

Yeah, roommates matter. Roommates matter. I'm going to be a gadfly for you. Hey, Marv, we could go on and on. And I just want to say thank you for your friendship, for your mentorship, for being an emblem, a living emblem for so many of the virtues that I aspire to live on a regular basis. Your thoughtfulness, your kindness, your openness, your exploratory nature, your high regard for others, your exactness when it comes to knowing how to help people feel alive and that they matter, and your selection of how you help people get better at the thing that

they have dedicated their life towards getting better at. And somehow you will do all of this by not defining people by the outcome, not defining them by anything other than the process of becoming. And so you got to, you know, this, this gentle, strong way about you that I just say that is, that is just beautiful how you pull it together. So I want to say thank you. And for this time, of course, but all the time that we get to spend together. Mike, honored to spend quality time with you. And I look forward to crossing paths. And I think we're getting close to the dust settling.

We'll be able to do that in the near future. Let's do it. I appreciate you, Marv. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review

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