Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Authenticity, Risk, and Adjusting | Recording Artist and Composer, Stephan Moccio

Episode Date: November 27, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Stephan Moccio, a producer, composer, recording artist and musician behind some of music’s most massive, inescapable global hits.In 2013, Stephan co-penned the quintuple-platinum song “Wrecking Ball” with Miley Cyrus.Following the song’s success, Stephan quickly became one of the industry’s most sought-after and in-demand producers and songwriters, going on to co-write and co-produce the two end credit songs for the film Fifty Shades of Grey: the quintuple-platinum "Earned It" with The Weeknd and "I Know You" with Skylar Grey.Stephan also co-wrote the Celine Dion come back hit “A New Day Has Come” and produced/co-wrote the quintuple-platinum song “I Believe” for the 2010 Winter Olympics.I really enjoy getting a chance to speak with artists on Finding Mastery because there is this tension that exists between art and commerce, and it’s something I want to continue exploring.Art is subjective – yet commerce is not.We live in an era where data driven decisions have become the norm.For some lines of business this can be great, but it also can limit creativity and stifle innovation.Many of us experience these same pressures – whether you work in the corporate world, entertainment, or sport.So while Stephan’s craft is music, I really think this applies to all of us.In Stephan’s case – his conundrum is centered on the type of music he chooses to make. Make music he know will sell? That the labels will love? Or music that he connects with? Music that touches his heart.That’s at the center of this conversation – Stephan shares how he’s gone about navigating that tension between selling out and making music true to him, why he’s been willing to take risks, and how’s he gone about adjusting as the music industry has rapidly evolved.Authenticity. Risk. Adjusting.Three components that I think are at the foundation of mastery._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. My mom always taught me someone's got to be great in the world. And if, you know, why can't it be you? Why can't it be, you know, that's just such logic. It just makes so much sense to me. If someone's got to be the best at something, why can't it be you? As long as you work your ass off and you're, you're the discipline, discipline's a big thing for me. I mean, the discipline I learned as a musician, I've applied it throughout my entire life.

You know, the, you know, cause I've been practicing piano ever since I was three years old. Cause I know that same way that if I don't go to the gym in the morning, my body's not gonna look the way it does. If I don't put in the scales, it's, I'm not going to be, I'm not go to the gym in the morning, my body's not going to look the way it does. If I don't put in the scales, I'm not going to be a great piano player. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais, and by trade and training, a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind this podcast, behind these conversations, is the opportunity to learn from people who are switched on, who flat out are investing their life efforts towards mastery of craft and self. And what we want to do is dig to understand, like, what are they searching for? How do they organize their inner life?

How do they make sense of the world around them? And we also want to pull on that string to understand what are the mental skills that they use to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort.

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on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them.

One a day. One a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right, look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective.

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I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now this week's conversation is with Stefan Macchio, a producer, composer, recording artist, and musician behind some of the world's most massive inescapable global hits. For example, in 2013, Stefan co-penned the quintuple platinum song. Think about that. People celebrate being platinum gold, whatever. This is

a quintuple platinum song wrecking ball with Miley Cyrus. Following that song's success, Stephen obviously quickly became one of the industry's most sought after and in demand producers and songwriters. He went on to co-write and co-produce two songs on the 50 Shades of Grey. The quintuple platinum earned it with The Weeknd and I Know You with Skylar Grey. Stefan also co-wrote the Celine Dion comeback hit A New Day Has Come. And he produced, co-wrote the quintuple platinum song I Believe for the 2010 Winter Olympics.

That's a lot, isn't it? Isn't that really cool? I mean, I love introducing folks that have really been in the trenches, figured some stuff out. And this one in particular was Stefan because, you know, artists are different and there's an art to finding mastery because there's this tension that I'm really interested in modern times that exists between art and commerce. And it's something I want to continue exploring. And in this conversation, we really pull on that thread. I mean, art is so subjective and it's so amazing and beautiful. And we're touched by it when we're ready to be connected to art. We have to be ready. That's

an interesting psychological finding. Yet commerce is not. It's not that way. And right now we live in an era where data-driven decisions have become the standard, if not the norm. And for some lines of business, this can be great, but it also can limit creativity and stifle innovation. And many of us experience these same pressures in life, whether you're, you know, working in the corporate world or entertainment or sport, it's that tension between commerce and art, authenticity and going with the masses. And so while Stefan's craft is music, the lessons in here apply to us all. And more narrowly in his case, his conundrum is centered on the type of music he chooses to make.

Like, you know, does he make the stuff that will sell? Because he's got obviously his finger on the pulse there. Or will he write the music and produce the music that connects with him, that music that touches his heart? And that is at the center of this conversation. And Stefan shares how he's gone about navigating that tension between selling out and making music that's true to him and why he's willing to take risks and how he's gone about adjusting to the music industry that has rapidly evolved. Authenticity, risk, adjusting. That's really what this thing is about.

And I think those three components are really down at the core of the foundations of mastery. And one last thing, if you love this podcast as much as we do, that you can do two things that can help. One is to tell two friends about Finding Mastery. And I've said it before, grab their phone gently, respectfully, as a friend would, and pop it open and show them how to download the podcast. It's one thing to talk about it, which I hope you do. And I know some of you are, and it's fun to, to be connected to those conversations as well, but show them how to subscribe, get them connected to it and tell

them that like the one that you love most and that you think that they'll vibe with. That's a massive accelerant. If all of us did that, we would double like, and if they did it, we would, you know, have this exponential growth. So anyways, I'm going to keep challenging us to do that. And the other way to support us is to support our sponsors. And you can find all the info and discounts that we've curated at findingmastery.net forward slash partners, and then using the codes and the links that our sponsors know that you found them through our community, through Finding Mastery. Okay. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Stephan Macchio. Stephan, how are you? I'm well, Michael. How are you?

Yeah, fantastic. So we're here in your studio in Los Angeles. Welcome. Yeah. What a beautiful spot you have. Thank you. Really, really proud of this space because I'm Canadian. I just moved here six years ago this summer and just stumbled upon this building about three years ago. We're almost going on three years now in this particular venue. before uh mid-century as you can tell about even some of the pieces and the way the kind of wall is done but uh and when i when i found it um i said i have to be here this has to be i'm such like an aesthetic aesthetically driven um composer i'm so sensitive to my environment if that makes any sense i have to be very comfortable in my environment i mean i spend more time in here than i spend at home if that makes any sense i'm'm here 14, 15 hours a day, probably six days a week. Well, it's got to feel like we've been fortunate enough to be in a couple of studios and you've got a unique feel here, right? It's very structured.

It's very purposeful. We call it like the womb. You feel like you're away from the world. It's kind of strange. Some windows – there's no windows, as a matter of fact. I don't know why we don't add windows to recording studios, but the feeling here, for me, it feels like a boutique hotel. It's very intimate. And this particular room that we're in is where it was the piano room, but I wanted to recreate this sort of mid-century sort of vibe as if you were kind of coming into

my living room, if that makes any sense. What is your home like? So we have a feel for how you've structured here. It's very purposeful, womb-like. Obviously, you spend time nurturing it. And then your home life, is it different? Is it more, is this an extension? It's an extension. I mean, just let me take you back in Toronto, where we lived before we had actually built our dream home in a section of Toronto called Rosedale. And Rosedale, an affluent area. But what's unique about it is that it's in downtown Toronto, but it's surrounded by a lot of trees. So unfortunately, my career was just explosive in terms of I had just completed the Olympic theme for Vancouver. That's a good word for your career. So I was always in Hollywood.

Did it start with one big hit or was it a slow ramp up? You know, it's a good, I mean, they always say overnight successes, you know, after 20 years or 10 years, what they say. And it's, it's, you know, and that's so true in a lot of ways, but I mean, I had a lot of huge success in Canada. But I mean, that's just such a, it's a parochial place. I don't mean that in an insensitive way to my homeland, which I'm so in love with. And I miss so, so much. So, so much. What do you miss about it?

I miss the people. I miss the socialistic element of it a little bit now. I mean, particularly without getting too heavy into politics. I mean, it's an interesting time here in the U.S. right now. I mean, particularly without getting too heavy into politics. I mean, you know, it's an interesting time here in the US right now. I mean, it's a very divided country. And, you know, when you just, I was just in Canada a few weeks ago and there's just something, there's a nicety to the people there. Not that it doesn't exist here, but I can't, it's hard to describe. It's a genesis quality when you when you're there you just kind of feel it and or maybe it's just home for me but i mean just back to the the home element

being that my second passion next to music was architecture and and and as i said i'm so aware of of of my environment um it's so important to me it's not necessarily for anybody else but it's just you know i i like to live in it doesn't have to be a fancy place, but it just has to be a place that's full of love. Like for this room, for example, I mean, every book, every, you know, the bottle of wines that you see here, everything's curated, you know, the movies on the wall, the piano, the pieces of furniture, every piece I love, it means something to me. So we had built this beautiful, you know, not a massive home, but a beautiful home in, in, in this, in this part of Toronto, which was, which was forested and wooded. And we had like beautiful drop into this ravine, but it didn't matter. I was never home. I was

always in LA. And so we moved to LA and, you know, we, um, it was, it was bittersweet, but no. And, and, um, we arrived here and within, you know, four or five days of arriving here, I was part of co-writing Miley Cyrus' Wrecking Ball. And that, you know, that event changed my life. Again, beds hadn't even arrived or furniture hadn't arrived from Canada. And, you know, my life had the biggest song in the world at that time. And everybody wants to work with you. And meanwhile, you have a family who you want to take care of because success is a tough thing to balance. And that sounds kind of crazy, but I'm still struggling with it. It is something that people want, success.

And they dream about it. Be careful what you wish for. Yeah. And the way that you shape it is really important. So I'd like to hear how you think about success and how did you do it as a young person? And is it different now? Luckily, I came from an incredible family,

two parents that just supported and nurtured my brother and I to go after our dreams at whatever cost. It wasn't like, you want to come from a musical family as well, which helped because a lot of people would shun, you know, saying, mom, dad, I want to be a musician. And they'd be going, huh? Because, you know, not even 1% of musicians can make a living at it. I'm blessed that I'm in the 0.1% who can actually survive doing it.

So success to me though, is literally being happy. That's, it's that simple as that. It's like being happy with yourself. I mean, I'm in my mid forties now. I've never felt better. I know I've, I've, I've experienced what you call the so-called, you know, the Academy Award nomination performance at the Academy Awards, Grammys. But I was happy before that. It didn't really change me. It didn't make me a more successful person. It helps when I talk to people and all of a sudden it helps get the attention of people. But I was successful 10, 15 years ago because I was able to forge a way and somehow make a living at my passion, which is music. So happiness is success for me. And then what's the hard part about it now? Now it's the balance. Honestly, it's the balance of family and commerce. And, you know, and we're,

you know, the great big jungle here in Los Angeles and Hollywood. I mean, it's an expensive place to live. And, you know, I've, I have an expensive lifestyle, meaning that, you know, we, again, children, you know, if you want to send them to – it just sounds absolutely trite, but it becomes part of who you are. I work all the time still because I'm so passionate about what I do. I want to make sure my children are taken care of. They go to so-called best schools. I mean we come from an incredible country in Canada where education was – we're

one of the top countries in the world that value education. And there's incredible education here in America, but you have to find it. And sometimes you have to pay for it. At least that's what I found in my opinion. So the tough thing has literally been balancing, making sure that I don't compromise my art, that I'm not doing B projects all the time just to get a paycheck. Because we've all done things to get a paycheck. And I you know, we've all done things to get a paycheck. And I realize that most people have to do things to get a paycheck. But I came from a creative belief from a family who just instilled saying,

happiness is not based on how much money you make. It's based on just how comfortable you are in your skin. And, you know, when you wake up every day, you feel challenged to do something or you're passionate to run to the piano because you've got an idea that you've got to get out. I mean, listen, Michael, my job technically, if I simplify it, is to write melodies that the world will sing.

It's incredible when you think of it that way. I mean, billions of people have heard melodies that have come from my fingers. And when I'm down and out and I'm pissed off at the world for a day because I'm having a bad day or I'm tired, I just have to remind myself. I'm like in that 0.1% of people who gets to do what they want to do. And I luckily get paid to do it as well. Okay. So we're at the piano right you want to

give us one of those right you want to give us one of those we're at this beautiful piano here so this piano um i'm a yamaha artist, which means that they take care of and supply me with incredible pianos worldwide. This piano is a brand new upright. They're YUS5 to be specific for any musos out there. But it was custom made, meaning that we put a piece of felt across. We can take that piece of felt off and you'll hear it. Here's how a regular upright sounds and then you put the piece of felt on it and it creates this sort of velvety chocolate sound chocolate sound. And the reason why I'm doing this next chapter of my life, like this next

part of recording is, you know, I have the privilege of producing some of the biggest pop stars in the world and working with them. You know, The Weeknd, Miley Cyrus' Wrecking Ball. And Celine Dion, who I'm currently working with this week. And my songs are often these ginormous big moments, these big melodies. They really are. Like Wrecking Ball is a big, you know,

the weekend is, is, yeah. It's like, it's a. And then. that's what i'm talking about. So you walk right into that like it's eating breakfast. Like you walk right into it effortlessly.

And that's mastery. I mean, it's funny. We're talking about mastery. But, you know, Martin Short, who's a dear friend of mine, he's Canadian, and he used to always say to me, people who are masters at what they do are people who make things look effortless. Like it just comes out of them. And then, you know, that's the performer's job to, you know, as I'm on stage, I, it's my role to make you as an audience member feel like I know exactly what I'm doing. And I, you know, I'm, you're not going to fall to, you're not going to fall that you can, you can take the journey with me for the hour and a half

to two hours that I entertain and play piano for you. But I've been doing it since I was three years old. And I've been doing it in a loving, nurturing, caring environment as well, which is so key because I've seen a lot of my friends and colleagues actually not have that support system, not have the parents who support that. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life.

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Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Okay. So you've got a parent structure, a family structure that helps shape success to be happy or feel good in your own skin. There's a, there's a theme that runs through, which is, Hey, you want to, you want to organize your life where you can't wait to go do what you want to do. Right. So that's that passion that's kind of threads through it. Then you've got all the mechanical skills that you've worked your ass off for, right? The mechanical ability to hit

notes and no notes and string them together and change them. The 10,000 hours and all that. Yeah. Well, for you, if you're practicing at a regular clip and you've been doing this 40 years, that's probably more like 50,000. Easily. Easily. I mean, I was in a practice room for, like I said, even in university college for 14 hours a day. So you studied it as well? Studied. I got the whole thing, a degree in classical. You know, I mean, ironically, I was going to – here's an interesting story.

I'm fully educated in music, got the whole degree, went to the University of Western Ontario, which is kind of like the – Yeah, great school. And great sports program as well, by the way. Yeah, for sure they do, yeah. Incredible music program. And I was going to get my doctorate and um i so i i i got in got the scholarship and um then all of a sudden lo and behold i started becoming fascinated with studio work you know i was 18 19 years old i was a classical musician and also the

double-edged sword was i was really talented in the studio i was you know great great chart reader became a studio musician and i wanted to get the hell out of there i just wanted to start writing songs and fast track my degree. And I told my parents, you know what? Forget the master's and forget the doctorate because I just – David Foster, who's a mentor of mine, a Canadian pianist as well, had called me like when I was 18 years old and said, listen. He goes, I just want to tell you the tape that you sent me. This is back 25 years ago. You've got the goods.

Just come to LA and just start doing it so what does that mean to you now because you can spot the goods right yes okay so now when you look back at what he spotted what was that in you i remember the impassioned letter i wrote but more importantly the the the piece of work that i sent on that it was a beautiful song i mean it was it was just, you know, I mean, I remember to this day, I wrote it with a friend of mine. And it was a beautiful piece of music. I mean, to say the least. And, you know, it was very much in the vein of David. And he just said, listen, man, if you're 18 years old and you're writing those kind of melodies and that kind of piano playing, he says, there's no difference.

You know, my mom always taught me, someone's got to be great in the world. And if, you know, why can't it be you? Why can't it be you? That's just such logic. It just makes so much sense to me if if if someone's got to be the best at something why can't it be you as long as you work your ass off and you're you're the discipline is a big thing for me i mean the discipline i learned as a musician i've applied it throughout my entire life um you know the you know because i've been practicing piano ever since I was three years old. Because I know that the same way

that if I don't go to the gym in the morning, my body's not going to look the way it does. If I don't put in the scales, I'm not going to be a great piano player. If I don't listen to great music, my ear's not going to be attuned to hear what I should be listening to in music. So, you know, it's the same.

So teach me, like what is great music that I can listen to to a tune? I mean, it's so subjective and I don't like to prescribe. Okay, so it's not like there's a book of the greats. No, there isn't. There are, for sure. But, like, some of the people that stood up for the ages. Okay, so what's in my, like, you know, even though I produce all these pop acts, when I go home and listen to, to cleanse my ears every night or in the car. That's though I produce all these pop acts when I go home

and listen to to cleanse my ears every night or in the car you know KUSC I'm putting on the classical station so I'm either listening to

all classical music you know Bach, Chopin, Rachmaninoff Debussy, Ravel or you know the greats of jazz I mean

like Bird we've got Miles Davis you know Oscar Peterson who's a big influence on me as a pianist and notably being a Canadian jazz pianist, one of the greats. I mean, Art Tatum and Bill Evans.

So I listen to those – Chet Baker. Those are constantly going on and playing in my home. And they're actually playing here in the studio environment when I'm not doing music and I'm just literally just responding to emails for a few hours in the morning. I often put those just to fuel me okay because the complexity of those chords and the complexity of harmonies so that's what you're looking for yeah i mean we've lost i mean there's an interesting survey survey that was done recently that was able to prove that for lack of better words music has become dumbified over the last uh 57 years this this this they started the the survey in 55 and they're able to prove with waveforms how music now,

I mean, you take, I love hip hop music. I mean, as a matter of fact, you know, one of the greatest, most relevant artists of our time is Kendrick Lamar. And it's, you know, the genius in what Kendrick's doing is the genius of his poetry. But you take certain kinds of music, right? And you took the waveform and there's no dynamic anymore because everybody just wants to hit levels hard because it's all about being in your face and feeling that bottom end. But, I mean, part of music in a lot of ways is it's like a conversation to me. I mean, great music, like, you know, whether it's Jimmy Durante, Andy Williams, Frank Sinatra, I mean, Sammy Davis Jr., we often go, why was that music so good?

It was first of all, it was often not done to a click. It wasn't done driven by a perfect metronome. It was done because we are humans and we kind of talk. And sometimes we talk softly and sometimes we speak loudly. And that is dynamic. And that's what we were lacking but it was just interesting even to show you the melodic gaps the the choice of you know it's we've just lost a little bit of that in i will be careful with what i say but certain radio music that's

all and it doesn't there's incredible music so your words because you don't want to insult. I don't want to insult people who are all of a sudden listening to certain stuff that this particular study proved to be music for a smaller brain, if you will. I mean, they can't handle it. I mean, because, you know, it's not – Barber or Samuel Barber or Rachmaninoff or Debussy is not for everyone either. And I get that. And it's just – I don't even know who they are. No, it'sussy is not for everyone either. And I get that. And it's just, you know, it's- I don't even know who they are. No, it's okay.

My brain is small. You'd be surprised. You've probably heard them. You probably know who they are. But, you know, ultimately at the end of the day, Michael, I think great music is whatever moves you. It literally is. It's just whatever makes your blood boil.

I mean, so that's why I'm always careful not to impose my choices on people. It's really cool. Yeah. So, you know, because people go, ah, I love country. Somebody else would say, I don't like country. Ah, I love hip hop. And the other guy says, I don't like hip hop. I mean, to each their own.

I mean, whatever. Listen, I came from, even though I came from a great family, I came from a broken home. My parents were divorced. And that was a tough time for me as a teenager, as a young teenager. And music was my crutch. And it was everything tough time for me as a teenager as a young teenager and i i music was my crutch and it was everything it gave me confidence it gave me waiting to understand like yes okay where does this thing come from so early days you were you know you had some structure and someone put you in front of the piano it's like probably mom mom right yeah she's a pianist

oh she is okay so so you had that influence then you found the value in escaping or being immersed in something when there's really difficult times around you that's what music is for people and where do you feel music oh we feel it like no you oh me i look right now as we talk about i'm I feel it all over my body. I still get goosebumps. From the pieces that you just played? 100%. Did you make any mistakes while you were playing that? Right now?

Yeah. That's a good question. I don't know. Maybe did I play it as perfectly as I wish I did? I don't know. I turned around. I don't know either. I was just feeling it.

That's all that matters, right? I don't have a technical ear. But I'm wondering, because you know so much, like, did you have to pivot or did it flow? When I say pivot, like, you had to make an adjustment, this, that, and this, which is the beautiful part of organic performances. Well, I mean, you know, technology is partly responsible for sucking the life out of music, right? There you go. I mean, take an iPhone. I mean, we have the ability now to take tens and tens of thousands of photos. I mean, we no longer are thoughtful in the moment in how to frame the photo.

Because why? We can take 27 selfies and figure which one we want to post. As opposed to when you were working with film, the same thing applies with music because Pro Tools or Logic, any of these digital audio workstations, give us the ability to record as many tracks as we want as opposed to just really rehearsing the piece and nailing it after five or six or seven takes only

as opposed to doing it 40, 50, 60 times. Because trust me, I've recorded singers, some of the greatest singers in the world and some of the singers that we all listen to at radio 70, 80, 90, 100, 110 times. And that's fine. And, you know, in one way, one can say, well, it's a pursuit of excellence, and we've achieved such excellence in the recording.

But you go back and you're going to go, why does Chet Baker still feel more soulful than dot, dot, dot, this recording? Why does Ella Fitzgerald sound more soulful? I mean, she had to learn those pieces before she got in front of that big band. I mean, those were, you know, tens of thousands of dollars, you know, for an afternoon session. You couldn't fuck up there. Excuse me for swearing, but I mean, you had to really know your stuff. You had to know your craft.

You had to rehearse it. She couldn't say, you know, I'm working with Pro Tools. I've got the ability to mess up so many times. I mean, listen to Ella Fitzgerald and listen to how pure her vocal is, or Sarah Vaughan, and go, there's no autotune on that.

And chances are, it's one take. It's crazy. It's crazy. It still blows my mind today when I put that on in the background. And so when we were talking about where you feel music, you're pointing to your arm and your hair. So there's a technical term called pyloerection. Oh, wow. That's fantastic. So for hair and then being on its end. So is that where you feel it, like in your skin, or do you feel it in other places as well? My soul, what does soul mean? I mean, I'm a very emotive man.

I cry and I'm not afraid to cry. And I also feel things. I think maybe a little more processing, sensory processing disorder. I must be. I have never been diagnosed by it, but I just, you know, I just know that I feel things more than the average person. And that's okay. It's my job because it's my job to translate that into three minutes and make that feeling exist for millions of people worldwide as well. And so that sensitivity that you have to your environment, what is the cost of that?

I know lots of questions. Yeah. I know so many people that are highly tuned and at the same time, it's like life is harder. It's more beautiful. And I mean, the downs are like depression. There's a beauty in depression and there's a deep struggle. Talk to my family. And I mean, I've got, you know, I've got two young kids. Sure. They're privileged and they, one can say they see and experience things more than most children do but there's a cost to it dad's not around a lot a lot i mean you know six days a week i'm in the studio when you say that where do you feel it well i mean i get sad i mean i can start crying about it right now because you know am i then i started asking myself am i I having, here's, here's brutal honesty. I'm in my mid forties now. Am I having a midlife crisis? But

I've always been obsessed with my work. I'm a musician. I'm a composer. I mean, I create, I put notes together and, and I'm in a position where people, millions of people will hear it. And, you know, it's like a drug. I mean, I don't do drugs, thank God. I mean, the closest thing I do to it is drink a lot of red wine because I'm French-Italian. You know, and that, but, you know, it's part of my culture. I've been drinking wine my entire life. You know, it's been allowed. I literally am French and Italian.

So, I mean, it's a lethal combination. But I'm around people. Are you rationalizing your drinking right now? No, I am rationalizing it. Okay, how much drinking are we talking about? No, I mean, I always have a couple of glasses. Two bottles a night? No, I am rationalizing it. How much drinking are we talking about? I always have a couple of glasses. Two bottles a night? No, but I've been there before though.

I'm sure we all have. But I have at least my one or two glasses a day at the end of the day. What does that do for you? As long as you don't abuse it, it does loosen you up in the right way. One glass will allow the muse to come in properly. As long as you don't abuse it, it does loosen you up in the right way. One glass will allow the music to come in properly. So do you organize, like when you say it comes in, that's an interesting, it's a really interesting image. Like it's outside of you and then somehow you're this beacon and it comes through and then you decode it and then you not spit it back out but you process and send it back out well that's a perfect segue into why and where i'm going for my next chapter of music making i mean as i was saying to you earlier we we

i'm responsible or partly you know attached to these ginormous songs these ginormous walls of sound and i that's a cool image tooormous walls of sound. And I- Oh, that's a cool image too, though. Yeah. Walls of sound. Like, does that mean like, so is the wall stable? I think- Like, what does that mean?

That's a really interesting image. Yeah, Phil Spector. I mean, one of the great producers from the 60s, I think they coined that term, something like that, walls of sound. I mean, Phil would be there with two drummers, you know, trying to create a stereo sound when you couldn't do that in the 60s, but just a bigger sound. And he achieved it. He certainly had one of those bigger sounds. But I'm returning to the piano, though, the simplicity of the piano for me as an artist. I'm part of the ingredient,

the ingredients that make artists famous. I produce and write songs and I make the sounds. I mean, it ultimately still comes down to the voice. It still comes down to the singer. However, if that voice is not supported properly and not produced properly, then the song or the singer is not going to go anywhere. So I'm in a supporting role there. But now as a solo piano artist,

I'm putting my reputation on the line. And the reason why I'm coming back to it is to answer your question, to hear yourself think. You know, I'm a dad now, a guy, busy in LA, you know, emails. I don't know if in technology, I don't know if that's really made our lives better. I ask myself that sometimes. I mean, it's made it more efficient, but all of a sudden we have, you know, 250 emails a day sometimes. And you kind of go figure out how to, you know, sift through them and say, I just can't. My creative time is what I guard the most, is what I protect the most.

It's so critical. The people in my life know that. When you really love something, you'll do whatever it takes to take care of it. 100%. Right? When something really matters, you'll do whatever it takes. 100%. And so for you, it's the space to create.

To hear yourself think, exactly. And so, yeah, it's interesting. Like, are you, so you're more up in your head than in your body? Head and heart. Head and heart. Which one leads for you? No, I'm heart. I'm so heart. But you talk about the value of thinking. When I say head, I mean, I'm an emotional guy and I often make decisions based on emotion.

And more importantly, my profession is an emotional one. I have to move people. If they don't get out of their seats and feel either beauty, sadness, or rage, you can feel all those emotions through music. And they're important to convey through music. How does that work? How do you work before thought? And so this is how I think of artists, right? Is somehow they get ahead of or deeper than.

It's like a precognition experience. They're in front of thought. And so thought and emotions are the artifact of the experience of the art. And so somehow I think artists get in front of them, which is incredibly complicated to think through. But somehow I think you tap into that space before the note. And when you string the notes together, there's movement. And we call that emotion. Sure.

Okay. This is interesting. This is maybe my own moment. Like moment like i mean so what you're saying like the head part just back to that for a second sure it is is the scientific part that allows me the the knowledge the know with all to sort of make my art community what good is an emotion or an idea for song if i don't know how to bring it to the world like you know i needed that training i needed the those 10 20 30000 hours to just develop and understand a chord and how you write a simple chord and melody and produce it properly.

But if you don't have it, then it's not going to go anywhere. And in a lot of ways, you know, just mastering that is those elements is key in order for you to communicate what you truly feel. I think, you know, ultimately everything in life, I mean, is the balance between, you know, what, you know, is it, is it heart or science? Because there's things that are science, scientific. As a matter of fact, I just spent, this is kind of serendipitous,

but I just spent a weekend with a Canadian astronaut, Julie Payette. She's a female astronaut. And she said something very fascinating to me because, you know, with Canadian astronaut Julie Payette. She's a female astronaut. And she said something very fascinating to me because, you know, she was like, there's like only 531 people have been up in space, something like that. And only approximately 65 women. She's one of 65 women in the world

who have been up in space twice now. But she says your whole view on religion changes once you go up to space i've seen this research everything yeah because you just realize that there's certain elements that are so scientific if you don't do this this cause and effect doesn't happen it doesn't drive that and you can't argue with her because it's such a who goes up to space and you know I've heard that from many people because I happen to be blessed. I've met a handful of astronauts. So back to art and how does that – it's psychology.

It's something you know clearly really well. And I also think that great artists are psychologists as well. I do too. We have to be. Yeah. I mean, we are manipulating emotion. Or if now we're not manipulating is probably the wrong word. That's not what psychologists are trying to do.

No, that's the wrong word. But we are conductors and we are just trying to sort of guide emotion. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft.

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And then they have the masterful tools to be able to paint the canvas, paint the note, whatever it might be. And so I want to know, going back to the glass of wine, the space that you're creating, I'm putting a little bit of a lens on it that I think that what you're doing is getting into the space before thought. And then you want to listen to your thoughts. And I'm not sure where you go there from that place. So I'm talking about signal now to noise ratio. So you're hunting for signal, gating out the noise. And when you tap into the signal, is it a feeling or is it a thought? It may be the construct that I'm laying out is not right. It's something else. But when you're tapped in the signal, what is that like for you?

Okay. So as long as I'm able to, again, create, I've got a regime now, come to the studio, work out in the morning. And I know from- Fitness in the morning. Fitness in the morning until about 1230, get emails done out of the way, 1230, one o'clock. And if I'm lucky, I'm in creative mode by about one o'clock, 1.15 and it's go time until about 1am every night and so you really want to be there to creativity, people often

they mistake it and they think they've got to be free and they've got to have nothing in their lives it's the wrong illusion you've got to give yourself parameters in life because creativity can only be conceived within a box have you seen the research on that or you just inherently oh i know that i didn't know there's research oh there's great but just think of you frame something then you're forced to come up with solutions and in creative solutions same with art the same thing i for example my this

solo piano album i i could choose to put 500 musicians on if i wanted to but i said i'm going to adhere and just stick to one instrument whatever Whatever I'm able to produce on these 88 keys, then that's going to force a level of creativity that just is unlike anything else. The moment I introduced a bass player or a guitar player or drummer, it opens up another avenue. And that's not bad, but I'm just saying my parameter on this particular project is just saying just you and a solo piano. And I, you know, I, for whatever reason, kind of knew this. I've known this all along. I think it comes back to the word discipline.

You know, I know that, you know, in order to train your muscles, I mean, you need to also, and people think, you know, yeah, sure. A lot of my great songs have just kind of come through my head. But also some of my other great melodies have come by just by sitting at the piano. It's just like exercise. You have to exercise it. Some people think, oh, I'll just wait for the divine inspiration. It don't work that way. At least not for me.

And I've heard Paul McCartney. I've heard some of the great ones. Just talk the same thing. I mean, Paul would say, oh, this melody is so amazing. I'll remember it in the morning. Well, you don't if you don't kind of go out of your way to record it or write it down in some capacity do you know just they're like these spirits that kind of come in and out you know it's it's your it's your responsibility to catch them and create the environment for you to

catch them that's all that's a really cool thought know, first the imagery that they're spirits that move, super eloquent. And then you create like the catcher, like your environment is to catch them, like the dream catcher type of thing. That's exactly what it is. But for you, what catches them is your structure, your routine, your discipline, and your environment and your skill. Right? Of course. Is that, it's all of those. No, no, bingo.

No, no, absolutely. Yeah, there you go okay it's uh is are you rigid again that's a great question and and it could be it could be answered both ways you're closing your eyes like like where are we going here yeah like rigid in that i am fastidious meticulous when it comes to producing, when I do work on – Not a perfectionist. Well, I'm also learning the importance of – I'm not learning. I know it.

But the importance of grit. Grit. Passion, perseverance for long-term goals. And dirt is important as well. A piece of art is too shiny. Nobody wants to see it. It's just too shiny. Oh, you're not talking about the psychological construct.

You're talking about the dirtiness of something. I'm talking about the dirtiness. Like making it dirty. Dirty. And then, you know, whether it's in music. I mean, you know, I know that the things are just too perfect. If something doesn't have teeth for me and it doesn't have a little rust and pit in it, and if it's not off-access, I'm much less interested.

When it's off-access, a little dirty, I go, you know what? That speaks to the humanity of things. Not this like angels from heaven singing perfect notes. That's not what I'm interested in. I don't know why. No. Yeah. So, okay.

So let's go back to your process. Right. When it's flowing, it's easy. When it's easy, it's easy. Exactly. Okay. So when it's hard and it's not working, you can't feel it, you can't see it, you can't whatever. How do you work through that? I just know.

I've been around too long now. I mean, I've been doing it for – think of it. I mean, I still consider myself a young guy and I've been doing it for over 40 years. What do you know? What is it when you say I know? I just know? That's life. It's like a relationship with somebody.

Some days everything's great and some days you just want to tear each other apart and go at it. And the same relationship that I have with my art, with my music is the same thing some days. And, you know, what I've found is often the best music comes through me when I at least expect it. When I'm not, you know, I think, oh, today it's going to be great. I've slept six plus hours and I feel alive. I've worked out. Often those are the days where the expectation is there. Nothing happens. But you show up. Showing up is a big part of it.

Showing up is a big part. The other days are like, you know what? I only have like 10 minutes to work today, but all of a sudden in the 10 minutes, you get the genesis to the next big hit song. And I find with me analysis paralysis. I mean, if I analyze things too, too much, I get paralyzed. I just, and I've certainly been there and I naturally go there.

That's who I am. I just, why wouldn't I? I know too many chords at the piano. I know because I'm overqualified in a lot of ways to write just a simple pop song. So I have to sometimes say, you're only going to use these four chords. And I literally, sometimes i've written

that i've written the notes simple like i remember my first big selena song i i wrote simple simple simple and i kept the initial first part of the song based on four chords alone that's all i said i said if i go out of those boundaries you start to get in danger zone but then you know because i mean you know i'm a guy who can do that at the same time i can you know write your symphonic piece of music and you know with chromaticism, you know, I'm a guy who can do that. And at the same time, I can, you know, write your symphonic piece of music and, you know, with chromaticism and, you know, it's complex harmonies and stuff like that. But who's going to listen to it? You know, part of this is the right balance of finding, you know, a piece of art that touches the world and feel like you haven't sold out. And now that's something that you have to ask yourself, what does selling out mean?

I love this part of the conversation. This is like. I love this part of the conversation. This is i love this part of the conversation this is a real wrestle for you isn't it a huge wrestle i mean because i've in the past you know i've got lights to keep on i have an expensive studio operation here i mean you know it's it's rare to one guy to have a studio with five rooms like this so it's it's and you kind of go well i could take these projects on you know, I feel alive. I mean, I haven't done much of it, but I'm just, but I have, I've had to make some exceptions. So how do you maintain, this is a real question for me. How do you maintain

that electricity of being right on the edge? And then the other side about, you know, how do I communicate to many? Yeah. I mean, that's a whole podcast because I'm around a very youthful generation as well. I mean, and earlier we were talking about the fact that I'm clean, I don't do drugs and stuff like that. But I run kids who use substance to try to get there. Don't ask me why they do. I'm not saying everybody does. I have to say, no, thank you. I don't need it.

That's not what drives me or gets me to that place of edge. I think for me, I do like to live on the edge in that. I like to risk certain things, risk in my domain, you know, like responsibly risk. For example, I could take you back to Canada, for example, when I did the Olympic theme. I knew I had the 2010 and 2010 Vancouver. I knew that I had this incredible melody, you know, it's like that came to me when Vancouver got the games. It was announced over Russia, I think. And so we wore the games to Vancouver.

And that was the theme that came to my head. And I said, idea for Vancouver 2010. And damn, I just lost my train of thought. I wanted to tell you something really important. So important. You like the way that you sounded. Yeah. You were consumed with that hitting the note.

No, we're talking about raising the edge. No, we're talking about raising his edge. Oh, we're talking about risk. Yeah. We're talking about risk. Are we talking about emotional risk? Well, both. On this one, we're talking about no one is going to – great lesson my mom taught me. She says, no one is going to give you what you want better than yourself.

You have to go get it. You have to literally go get it yourself. And I had that theme in my head. What what i'd do i'd call a few people i met my collaborator eventually in canada alan freeman we met with the head of the olympic consortium and you know i'm simplifying the story but we played it and basically we got the congratulatory on the spot that you know i'm sitting here and it's a climatory. It's like... And basically, he said,

congratulations, you have the theme for the Vancouver 2010 games. That's how it worked? And part of that, though, what people don't know is I had to produce a demo. I had to spend $40,000 of my own money

to put some strings, some children's choirs on it as well and play it. I risked losing $40,000 of my own money, but that's how confident I was in the fact that that piece of music was the best piece of music for the Vancouver 2010 Games. Okay, so you're not measuring – okay, go ahead. No, all I'm saying is that's –

So the risk was more financial? Financial, but you still – it's entrepreneurial. It's a head game because you kind of go, well, why do I'm saying is that's – So the risk was more financial? Financial, but you still have – Entrepreneurially, it's a head game because you kind of go, well, why do I have to put up the money? Well, if you want to – It's a great saying. If you want to be in the 1%, you have to do the 1% thing that people don't do as well – or that they don't do. I mean you have to –

Wait, say that again. If you want to be in the 1%ers of the world, you have to do those things that are in the 1% as well, meaning like take those colossal risks. That's really cool. Yeah. And so you see yourself as a risk taker more than a rule follower? A thousand percent. Is it, so there's five basic risks.

There's emotional risk, financial risk, physical risk, moral risk, social risk. And you- I've risked them all all you get up on all of them i mean some more than others but i mean i think i wouldn't be where i am if i didn't i mean you know morals is a debatable one but i mean but against my own moral sometimes you know it's it's um you know that that could be as as simple as saying you know i promised myself I wouldn't do projects anymore for money. And all of a sudden you're, you're caught because, you know, you're just, you, you got to make more money or just not because I want to buy, you know, fancy stuff. I mean, you know, other than nice expensive wines that I like, I'm a real straightforward

kind of guy. I just don't spend money on myself. I spend it on, on music and pushing music forward. There's a theory that is banging around the back of my head that you've mastered. It's called self-determination theory. And there's three components to it. Competence. So like you have a strong competence.

Like you have command of your craft. Autonomy. Yes. Which means that you choose, you're an agent in your own life. You've got great freedoms. Right. And then relationships. So you've talked about the value of relationships. So you've really mastered those three components of what's called the self-determination theory, which is one, I think one of the easiest theories to think about how to be powerful in life right so if you've got a great competency you got a sense of autonomy in your life you have strong relationships

bang thousand percent you got them yeah i i thank you firstly um and they were just you know taught um to me i mean that's it's you know you i've got a younger brother who's two years younger. Literally, we're born almost two years to the day apart, and we're both October babies, and he's as talented as I am. But why didn't he pursue it in the same way? I'm not saying anything against my brother. I mean, he's a schoolteacher. But I just knew that he writes as beautiful music as I do. I just felt like someone, like I said to you earlier, if someone's going to do that, why can't it be me? And, you know, I also feel like this life is already too short. I mean, I'm halfway through it if I'm lucky. You know, maybe I'm going to die tomorrow. Maybe I'm not. But I'm just saying you might as well do what you love because if you don't, I mean somebody else is going to tell you what your priorities are.

You might as well make your own priorities in life. What is it that you're searching for? What are you most hungry for in life? What are you craving? Where is that search? Now it's different. I mean, you know, I'm at a level where I've achieved certain levels, certain pinnacles in my career where I've had the number one songs and stuff like that. I'm searching for

to do something, come back to piano music and make that cool. I mean, if that's possible. And just show people that they can actually just relax and just listen to themselves think. Yeah, I'm curious about this because I've seen such a massive trap from people that are wildly successful and they base their sense of success on what other people feel or think or respond. And so I'm hearing a little bit of trap in there for you, like

success happens when I move people. But that's not what you said early in the conversation. You're saying success is when I feel good in my own skin. But how does the relationship with others become noisy or influence or become a compromise to your integrity as an artist. And again, I could have this construct all wrong. No, of course. No, no, no. It's right. I mean, there's the art and commerce battle all the time.

And I'm assigned to a major publisher as well. One would argue, and I would say there's a lot of truth that the publishers just want hits, things that will generate things with a bottom line. But, you know, and to recover and recoup the money that they advance you. You know, I'm a successful songwriter, meaning, you know, I'm recouped. You know, I make money for the publishers. You know, if I die tomorrow, they're still going to make money for 20 years for me. Lucky them. And I took the risks. I took the risks in life. I'm the one who, you know, probably fucked up many times as well and lost a lot of money. And all of a sudden, you know, you got somebody who's there and able to, and that eats at me a little bit on the business.

I don't try to think about it too, too much because even moving from Canada to America was a huge risk. It cost a lot of money. People don't realize, close down shop, legal fees. I mean, all of a sudden you're close to a million dollars in on a move to do it right, to do it above. And then all of a sudden you kind of go, well, luckily it worked. I knew, I just knew it was going to work. But I knew that because I knew that LA, one thing LA does well is it really rewards hardworking, disciplined, talented people. And once this talent is recognized and sniffs them out, you're screwed for better or for worse. All of a sudden, you get into that circle and all of a sudden, the world's offered at you and you have to just still know your boundaries.

You still have to know and you've got people that you're responsible to and it's tough to balance that sometimes amidst that. So I don't know if I've digressed and not answered your question. Well, like, okay, it sparks another idea, which is you've been behind the scenes for a long time. Yes. Again, Miley Cyrus, massive hit, The Weeknd, Celine Dion, and it goes on and on. Now you're going to move from behind the scenes to front and center. Exactly. So what's happening there for you?

There's a business element to it as well. And I'd like to enlighten people on it because, I mean, we don't make any money selling music anymore. You know, people, you know, just 20 years ago, we used to. I mean, but you put your hand- When you say we, are you talking about composers? I'm saying composers, songwriters. Okay. Just think of this simple analogy, you know, like all kids now, my own children and anybody

who's, you know, 25 years or 30 years and younger almost think that music should be free because, you know, I mean, we're streaming, we're spending $9.99, you have access to basically everything. That's crazy when you think about it. Meanwhile, we'll go to Starbucks, we'll spend $6, $7, $8 on a cafe or coffee or what have you, and it's in your body, out the body a couple hours later. Meanwhile, myself or any notable writer has bled, probably spent sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars on education to learn how to play their instrument, learn the craft, then gone through the emotional turmoil to write a great song, break up, get hurt, you know, lose somebody and bleed.

And people don't even want to pay $1.29 for that. And that $1.29 will probably give you more satisfaction than that coffee will from Starbucks. It's, we've lost. We've lost it. We've completely forgotten that music has been demoralized in terms of that side of it. So now the flip side is that people are craving live music so that the live scene is very healthy. We'll pay $150 a ticket, $200 to go Coachella and feel like we're part of a community. And that's healthy and that's wonderful. And that's called being a human. But don't think for a second that when somebody's song is number one around the world, all of a

sudden they're riding around in Lamborghinis all of a sudden because we used to, because we used to get a piece of that. I'm fine. I'm going to be fine. I still have big copyrights, big songs that are going to generate money for years and years and years. But even to sort of keep up and sort of say, look, you've got the Kardashians making multi-million dollars a post sometimes just on Instagram. You're kind of going – everyone's kind of scratching their head and perplexed and looking at that situation sideways and going, how did that happen? And I'm just saying, you know, I've been almost forced that kind of music anymore by selling it because the structure has decided for us for, for the rest, for eternally, we will no longer make the

kind of money we did in the eighties, the nineties is done. So, but there is a healthy live element and I've got to go on the road and sell my music and play it, perform. I was talking to an artist that sells out football stadiums in 10 minutes. Yes. Like one of them. And she said, you know, my money comes from merch. Right. And live.

Yes. And it's good money from streaming and whatever. But people aren't buying records and this and that. But it's like merch and live. And is that what you're saying as well? Merch is huge. I mean, and merch can also mean just, you know, brand association as well. I mean, you can, you can team up with Puma. You want to team up with Adidas and all of a sudden there's merch there.

I mean, you can do a $10 million deal with them. And if you're famous enough and every child wants to buy the, the new so-and-so uh puma shoe now live i mean television music's a big a big a big stream as well i mean luckily i'm a composer who does a lot of you know people don't realize i do a lot of the themes uh sports teams as well in in canada i mean every time the the blue jays play that's right yeah you know they play yeah that's a big deal. I mean, luckily. And they're crazy. You know, Canadians are crazy for sport.

They love sport. They love sport. Hockey theme. I do the hockey theme in Canada, which is a bloody honor. I mean, it's a religion back home. And, you know, every night, you know, my music plays 15, 20, 25 times a day. So very healthy income stream and stuff like that. But, you know, I've worked at it.

You know, I'm not afraid to say that I deserve it because I've, that. But I've worked at it. I'm not afraid to say that I deserve it because I've taken a lot of hits myself. Can you walk me through a story that captures what it's like for you to fail? Failure, I mean, for me, I still go through it. I'm going through it now with particular artists. I mean, they don't even need to be named per se. But we invest a lot of money. through it now with particular artists i mean just they don't even need to be named per se but um you know we invest a lot of money um but it's not just money because honestly i don't care about money i only care about it when i don't have it if that makes any sense and the only reason why i

care to have it is it helps me achieve my creative vision simple it's all i want money for is to just help me achieve what's in my head and get it out to the world, those melodies. Now, I mean, but what I do grieve in terms of the failures that I had is the time lost that I can't get back. And that's tough. For example, I could work for a year and a half with an artist and think I'm creating some of my best work, best songs, best productions, and they fall flat on their face and they go nowhere. And so you have to ask yourself, what did I learn?

And how am I not going to repeat this again? You know, what am I going to do differently? But then you kind of say, sometimes art, it could be a plethora of things. It could be that it was the greatest thing. I mean, it's just that the timing wasn't right or the arena wasn't big enough or you didn't get the proper chance to get into the arena to expose the art. You think with a guy like me who's had some of the biggest pieces of music the last few years, I mean, it doesn't mean that every time I put out something that I'm getting

it heard every time. And I would argue that some of my best music hasn't been heard. It's just one of those weird things. Don't get me wrong. I mean, the songs that we just named are, I proudly put my name on them and they're incredibly written songs with my collaborators. But I'm just saying,

I have songs in my opinion that are just as powerful, perhaps maybe even more melodic. When you have that thought or that moment of inspiration, and then you share it with the artist, the singer, it changes. Yes. Right?

There's a transmutation that takes place. For the most part, does it get better for you or does it lose its purity? Oh, that's a great question. That depends on which, I can go through every song of mine some get worse and some get better so even when i like you know sometimes when i you know perform i play a song and we demo it meaning is we we get a singer to to kind of sound like the singer that we're pitching it to and oftentimes that's how it works a lot of times yeah i mean i can play stuff later which should be shocked but i mean now i often just write with the artist

in the room because I have I have the power the relationships and that built up the experience to command that but it doesn't I still sometimes write with just another collaborator of mine and you know we know most artists now we could just call them up or just send them

send the song and see if they like it but you know you can have a song that was demoed beautifully. It's just in demonstration purposes. And all of a sudden, that artist, and they can be a very famous artist, and they sing it, and it's not as good. It's not as moving. So all of a sudden, you start to lose the interest in that piece of work. But you let it, and you fly.

It goes off. It's like a bird, and it's like a child, I guess. And some go further in life and some don't. What are you afraid of? What are the fears that move you? I think it's just your own mortality. I mean, I'm afraid of not getting all the ideas out before I die. And I think I've always taken care of myself you know been really health conscious but

more so in the last five six years um and just making sure that i i give myself another 30 40 years healthy years of just mental stamina to get get there you know i have big ideas in my head a lot of them some are probably ridiculously lofty and will fall flat on their face again but i mean if i didn't have them i mean we wouldn't we wouldn't have the songs that we've had it wouldn't have the olympic theme it wouldn't have you know these these big productions so i mean i think you know i dream big do you write them down do you talk them out do everything you rehearse them inside sing them to my phone do you i know i notate by hand as well so sometimes if i if i don't have

a phone i could just like write you write seven or eight notes of the melody. We'll decode it the next day and I know what it is. Do you get crazed? Like, I got to get it out. I got to say it. I got to do it. Talk to my kids. Yeah.

I mean, sometimes I'll be in the middle of a conversation. I'll just be singing on la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-idea. Done. And then I can reference it and come back and develop the theme later. Or, I mean, I'll be at the piano and you know, I'll just say, I'll just be near it and I'll just play. I'll just go like that and I'll go, I'll know exactly where to go afterwards. So, so you just get the prime once you get a prime. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Exactly. Yeah.

All right. You've organized your life in a way to support your creative. That's well said. Yeah. I never thought of it that way. I think because I've so, it's so sacred to me that the back, the creative time and, you know, a lot of my mentors, I mean, whether it's David Foster or a lot of people, I mean, guarding your creative time is so – you have to be vigilant and you have to know that – because as I said to you earlier, I'm an emotional guy and I like to make people happy as well. And I have to recognize that sometimes you have to be selfish because if you don't get the creative stuff out, then people – you don't get to move people.

They don't get the benefit of your talent. Why no drugs? What happened early days that you decided like that's not for me? Never needed them. I mean, I think, yeah, I think I'm fascinated by them because I just, I see people around me and they got to go places. I, you know, I mean, Jesus, I hadn't even smoked weed until a few years ago. I mean, I don't smoke weed, but I mean, I just, I tried it. I said, okay, well, great.

Don't need it. For me, I've just kind of said, you know, I've also seen a lot of shit happen. I've seen, I've actually lost some friends as well. I know I've lost recently a friend who was 32 to overdose. And that scares the shit out of me. And all I want to say is that wine gives me enough edge if I'm going to use it. Because I'm already high on life. You really are animated.

You're definitely switched on. Yes. But when I think of people and how constricted they are or how open they are as just one way to think, you're really open. Yes. Thank you. And I didn't know that until, like people keep on saying you're open. I don't, I just, it's the way I am. Yeah. There's access, there's easy access. And you've also got a framework that you're working from that I'm trying to understand, you know, which I think if I could take a stab at it, could I take a run at your framework? Is that you've had a relentless approach to refining your craft. And it's been maniacal in some respects.

There's been a great cost to it. Great word. Yeah. A great cost to relationships and love. Yes. You come from love and that is your crisis. Talk to my wife. I mean, she's a lot of ways.

God, I don't even know how to my wife. I mean, she's, I mean, I, you know, she's a lot of ways. God, I don't even know how to, how to describe that. I mean, she's gotten the benefit of my incredible heart be wrong to, I think at this point, you're just going to pretend. I don't like pretending that there's, I don't do well with fake conversation. And I think that we just kind of be brutally honest. I'm trying to be as brutally honest with myself more and more as I get older. I mean, the more self-deprecating, the more you can look at yourself and say,

listen, you realize you're talented, but you also say like, you're not, you also say, you're not going to live long. I mean, maybe if I'm lucky, my music will live for another hundred years. We never know. I'd like to share a practice that I use. I don't know if you'll be interested in this or not. You might think it's too morbid.

But the fragility of life is present for me. I embrace how fragile life is. So when I say goodbye to people, I don't know if I'll ever see them again. And that's my- This is amazing. Yeah, this is my wife. This is us. Right.

And so I take a moment and a beat just to look and recognize. And what I'm looking for is the little light, right? Right now we're in a room, but you can see in the color of my eye, you can see a little white spot. And so we're out in the sun. It looks like a little square thing or whatever.

And I just look in there as a reminder, like there's so much good in you. Like it's this, it's the light trying to come out. I know it's a reflection from a lamp or the sun, but it's just a moment, just a quick beat to recognize I might not see it. And there's a lot of good in you. And it prepares me for when I don't get to say goodbye to somebody. It's interesting you said that. I mean, just today I met someone who I, just a very kind person, but they said to me, you have a kindness in your eyes. And I felt, I feel the same about this

individual too. And I think that look is important. It only takes a moment. Even saying goodbye, even saying goodnight to the kids as I insist that you don't go to bed angry with people. Is that a practice for you? I can't go to bed angry with anybody I love, that I truly love.

What if you can't work it out and it's 2 a.m.? And you got to wake up at 6. Oh, I've been there. And I will be there for, I'll still be there the rest of my life. I think, I mean, you know,

I guess if you're getting up in an hour and nothing's, but you know, I don't think I've been in that kind of evil or menacing argument either. But, you know,

whether I've done something wrong or someone's wronged me, I think it's important to sort of come to, you know, whether I've done something wrong or someone's wronged me, um, I think it's important to sort of come to, you know, you can't, you don't, you don't necessarily have to feel, pretend like it didn't happen, but not go to bed angry. I, you know, I think anger is a real, God, it's, it's, it's, it's awful emotion that's necessary because it's, it's, it's also, if we don't have anger, we don't know when we're truly happy. Right? So I actually believe in that. If you've never been sad or down and out or depressed,

you don't know how to recognize when you're happy. On the heels of that, there's a big question. It's tough to answer this, but how would you finish this thought? It all comes down to truth. I mean, that's truth is just trying to, trying to be truthful with yourself and people around you. Listen, I mean, I've,

the truth has hurt a lot of people and sometimes it's not like I've done anything wrong, but it's just because I'm not being the person they want me to be in pursuit of what I want to be. Oof. It gets me really emotional, but where do you feel that? Well, just even coming out to LA, it's just It gets me really emotional. Where do you feel that? Well, just even coming out to LA, it's just like it was hard.

Where do you feel that in your body? Like everywhere. I want to cry. I mean, you know. In your throat? Where are you choking it off right now? Right here. In your jaw?

Jaw, head. I mean, I'll never forget the look of my parents, even though they were so supportive. But, you know, moving to LA and just a whole other part of the world. But I knew it was going to happen. Listen, I moved here in 18 months. I was nominated for an Academy Award, three Grammys. I mean, I'm sitting on the Academy Award stage.

And I knew probably when I was 18 years old, when I received the first phone call from David Foster, that he was right. I knew the moment I would live here that things would happen a different way. And I was probably scared for so many years. That's probably why I didn't move here. And I mean, it's easily become a therapy session. You know, and so many things. I don't mean to get there, but you asked me to answer with one word. I mean-

It's an occupational hazard for a podcast with a psychologist, isn't it? Well, that's exactly it. Seriously. You should probably be billing me after this. No, it's a joy. Like when you said truth, instantly I said, yeah, that fits for you.

Does that make sense? Oh, for you, it totally fits. I'm going through something right now where I'm just kind of like, just, that fits for you. Does that make sense? Oh, for you, it totally fits. I'm going through something right now where I'm just kind of like, just, you know, the truth, and the truth is a good thing for love, but it's hurting some other people. And I'm just kind of going, because I lead with my heart. I'm guilty of it. And it's sometimes good. I mean, you know, I will take happiness over money any day. I've been broke and I've been rich.

I know both sides. So I don't, you know, happiness is to me success, as we said earlier. I can't quite sort out where happiness comes from for you. Do you have a, can you speak to that? I mean, there's happiness professionally and there's happiness personally. So I haven't taken much time to travel and smell. I mean, I travel. My music takes me around the world.

But just to really stop because I've got melodies in my head. I feel like I've got to get them out. But through my work, I get to see see the world which is perhaps one of the most beautiful things but you're asking me what happiness is or where does it come from where does it come from yeah i mean you know in professionally through music it comes through and i i when me writing a piece of music a melody that is hummed by the globe you know i mean you know or when people kind of hear and they're they they sing back something that came from your heart your head or your fingers and all of a sudden millions of

people are singing it that's that's happening professionally for you okay so professionally and then personally i mean god now it's i just feel like you know taking care of my loved ones and you know that i'm a bit old-fashioned that way when i love somebody i want to take care of my loved ones and you know that i'm a bit old-fashioned that way when i love somebody i want to take care of them i really do and um kids family it's uh i don't know it's okay so let's let's round this out god thank you for your time thank you yeah let's round this out to like how do you articulate or define as we've been rolling in this conversation? How do you think about mastery? This is okay. I want to ask you mastery in terms of my domain, in terms of music, or just in life generally? I love the nuance that you're working for here because there's at least two types, mastery of craft and mastery of self. And most people snap into

mastery of craft, but you just took it and extended it out. So most people go to that. That's a very good point. Yeah. You just pulled it out. I'm much more interested personally in mastery of self. And I think we use craft to, at a deep level, understand and refine our position in the world, but it falls way, way short for so many of us because the real aim is mastery of self, not mastery of craft. Mastery of self is how can I live a life of purpose and meaning and connection and authentically and artistically express myself and be able to do that in any environment. That's mastery of self.

And when I say any environment, I mean intimacy into like threatening physically or emotionally environments. So I'm more interested in that. Most people I think are actually more interested in craft. So to me, I don't, I'm just asking the question. No, no, no. And it's, and a lot of people, this is so interesting. And this conversation is, I've never had this question asked in this fashion. You know, here's an aha moment for me.

My profession, my vocation is being an artist. And what does an artist mean? I mean, I have to master my craft first, as we discussed, put in the hours. And my art happens to deal with human emotion. So it's almost the perfect storm. So I, because if I'm going to be a great artist, I have to, I have to firstly understand myself. Joni Mitchell said, you know, in order to write some of the best songs, you have to make yourself, you have to move yourself first. If you can't move yourself, you're not going to move the world. And so, you know, but the biggest thing that happened to me as a young 12, 13, 14-year-old was my parents' divorce.

And that really affected me. All of a sudden, my world shattered. Some people say, well, big fucking deal. Everybody gets a divorce at some point. But as a child, it really impacted me. All of a sudden, I said, you know what? I got to really take charge of my world, my life. I have to go after what I want to really take charge of my, my world, my life. I have to go after what I want to get. I mean,

because I felt like the ground had been taken under and I started to really understand myself and speak in a very enlightened way as a 13 or 14 year old and starting to understand my emotion. And I don't hide the fact it's funny. It's funny. I, a guy cries a lot. I mean, he's cried now in this podcast basically. It's just like, so just to answer your question, I mean, it's funny it's funny a guy cries a lot i mean he's cried now in this podcast basically it's just like so just to answer your question i mean it's it's i'm lucky that you know i have mastery of both by virtue of my profession and the fact that i stuck it out through because i'm in a profession that has that deals with human emotion so if i don't understand myself

then i can't sell my art. But if I do understand myself, then it will move everybody else. Golly. That's why I love the arts. The sensitivities and the command of craft all wrapped in together. What's the one word you understand the most? Love. Love.

Yeah. I thought you'd answer that. Thank you. Thank you. Seriously, thank you. Yeah. Where. Yeah. Yeah. I thought you'd answer that. Thank you. Thank you. Seriously. Thank you. Yeah. Where do people find you?

Like what's a good spot to go follow along with what you're doing? You know, I mean, of course my website. Uh, so www.stephanmoccio, S-T-E-P-H-A-N-M-O-C-C-I-O.com. But,

um, and Instagram. I mean, the thing is, um, we're in the process of shifting things. So by the time this podcast comes out, everything will be ready to go. Epic. Epic. Thank you so much.

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