Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Author Gretchen Rubin on Happiness, Human Nature, Habits

Episode Date: January 31, 2018

This week’s conversation is with Gretchen Rubin.Gretchen has spent the past decade researching and writing about happiness and is the author of several books, including the blockbuster New York Times bestsellers The Four Tendencies, Better Than Before, and The Happiness Project. I wanted to talk to Gretchen because happiness is something that every one of us seems to searching for yet some of us have trouble finding.When you ask people on the street or in a casual conversation, "What are you looking for in life? What does it all come down to?" Many people say happiness. What's been interesting is that on this podcast, many of the interesting thinkers and doers have not said happiness. They are looking for something different than that.I wanted to pull from Gretchen why and how happiness is something that she's spent her life trying to understand.In this conversation, we have a great discussion on how happiness and habits are linked.Gretchen came up with her own personality framework – the idea being that each of us fits into one of four characteristics she calls the four tendencies.These tendencies explain the reasons behind why we do what we do, based on how different people respond to expectations.We even touch on my own tendencies and she’s spot on.When we get to that part of the conversation, definitely take a moment to think about where you / others that you are close to, fit on the scale.Gretchen mentions that, “What’s interesting is that if you don’t understand the tendencies, you might be sabotaging someone else with your advice, even if you have the best intentions.” And this is one of the reasons why I don’t like giving advice.. for more on that.. I did an episode of Tribe Talk on it.I hope this conversation teaches you a little bit more about yourself and what it really means to be happy._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And then I think that kind of makes it seem more like not an insurmountable goal because you're just like, I just want to be better than before. All right, welcome back or welcome to the finding mastery podcast i am michael gervais and the idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery who are switched on and dedicated their life's efforts to figuring out difficult stuff and what these conversations are designed to do is understand what they've come to understand as best we possibly can, but also work to understand their psychological framework. Like how do they explain events? What is their worldview? How do they make sense of where they're positioned in the world?

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something that every one of us seems to be searching for. Yet, some of us have trouble finding. And when you ask people on the street or in a casual conversation, what are you looking for in life? What does it all come down to? Many people do say happiness. And what's been interesting on this podcast, many of the extraordinary thinkers and doers have not said they're searching for happiness. They're looking for happiness. They're looking for something different than that.

And so I wanted to pull from an expert like how and why is happiness something that she spent her life working to understand? So she came up with her own personal framework about it. And it's the idea being that each one of us fits into one of four characteristics and she calls them the four tendencies. And so we talk about that in the podcast and these tendencies, according to her, explain the reasons behind why we do what we do based on how different people respond to expectations really. And we even touch on my tendencies. We get into it and she was spot on with it and it was fun. And when we get to that part of the conversation, definitely take a moment, maybe even hit the pause button to see where you are on her tendencies and her scale and to see where you think others that you're close to. And that might be a nice way to bring something home to your loved ones to have that conversation.

So Gretchen mentions that what's interesting is that if you don't understand the tendencies, you might be sabotaging somebody else with your advice. I totally agree. And you know how I feel about advice. It's a really dangerous, dangerous thing to be able to do. And even if you have the best intentions. Okay. And if you want to pull on that thread a little bit further, I did an episode of that on Tribe Talk, and you can find that on our website. I hope this conversation teaches you a little bit more about yourself. I really do. And with that, let's jump right into the conversation with Gretchen Rubin.

Gretchen, how are you? I'm great. I'm so happy to be talking to you. Fantastic. Likewise. So before we get going, seriously, congratulations on your body work and what you've contributed to the field of wellness and happiness and joy. And so congratulations on that. Oh, well, thank you. That's very nice to hear. Yeah, it's been a joy to see how you've been, I don't know, working. I mean, you've got, I think it's four books. Is that correct? Well, I actually have like eight books because I was writing before the happiness project came

out. But a lot of people don't know that I, that was the happiness project wasn't my first book. Wow. Well, look at that. Okay. So what are, I want to do a couple of things with you. I want to know where you came from and like what the formative years were like. And then I want to understand how you shaped your career path and took that in the direction, which as I understand was more of a decision for you. And then I want to also understand the insights that you've learned from writing and what, you know, like how can the rest of us use some of those insights to improve the quality of our living? Great. Yeah.

Okay, good. So where did you come from? What was it like growing up? I grew up in Kansas City, Missouri, with a kind of very traditional setup with like a mom and a dad and a younger sister and a dog, you know, in a yard. And I had a very kind of peaceful, happy childhood. Um, and I'm still very close to my family. So, um, which is, which is really great. Okay. So mom and dad, uh, they stayed together their entire marriage. Yep. Still together now. Yep. Okay. And then did you have siblings?

Yes. I have a younger sister. Um for people who listen to the Happier podcast, they know my sister, Elizabeth, as my co-host. She's five years younger than I am. But we are very, very close. What was it like growing up with somebody who is five years different? Because there is some research or some findings that five or six years difference between siblings is it's like growing up and as an only as an only child well you know it's interesting because right now as a as a parent my own daughters are six years apart so they're even further apart than i am um and for us it was great i mean my daughters are very close now when they're 12 and 18 and they were have been very close always my sister and

i weren't so close growing up. We were never antagonistic, but we were kind of in our own worlds and kind of like only children, as you say. I mean, I was definitely aware of my sister and spent tons of time with her, but I had my friends, she had her friends. We were doing very different things. But then as we got older,

and those age differences mattered less, say starting in college, we got closer. And, you know, she's a professional writer. She's a television writer in Los Angeles and also a fiction writer. I'm a professional writer. She switched before I did. She was my role model in a lot of ways. So we have a lot of similar professional interests as well as being temperamentally very similar. So I think that made it easier for us to have an enduring relationship because we had a lot in common.

Okay. How does your sister describe you? This is like maybe a sneaky way of trying to figure out, like, you know, how do you show up in the world? My sister, the funniest thing my sister calls me is a happiness bully. Um, that's, that's her nickname for me. Um, you know, my sister, it's interesting, because she is kind of a more fun person than I am, and a kind of more likable person than I am. I'm a more disciplined person than she is, what would she say? But you know, but all those things, there are advantages, too. I mean, especially now that we work together, we have this big collaboration in our podcast. I think she sees the value of my discipline more than she maybe did before because she sees that it's nice for her.

Okay. So how about this thought? What was it about your upbringing and your family structure and the places that you grew up that led you down this path to want to understand happiness? I don't think there was much in my background that led me to this, really. I mean, I got interested in happiness, not from a place of deep unhappiness, but because I was pretty happy already. And I thought, you know, well, what do I want from life? I want to be happy, but I never spend any time thinking about whether I am happy or if I could be happier. And I thought, well, I should have a happiness project. And I think my big interest is human nature. And if I look back to my childhood, that's always been my interest. My intellectual interest is to understand human

nature and certainly happiness, good habits, my four tendencies framework, all this is an aspect of happiness. I mean, it's an aspect of human nature. My first book was called Power, Money, Fame, Sex, A User's Guide. That was also an aspect of human nature. And then I wrote two biographies, one of Winston Churchill and one of JFK. And those are also examinations of human nature. So I think that's always been my subject. And I think I just had to grow into understanding that I could do that, that I could write about human nature. It took me a while to find my way into it. And then once I got started, then one subject – it's such a vast and limitless subject that as I got interested in one thing, then it would start to pull me towards kind of the next, the next things that I wanted

to understand better. Okay, that's, it makes sense. Super clean, right? Like I was curious about people. And then so Churchill and JFK, like totally different leaders. But you know, it's interesting, because well, another thing that I like to sort of like as process, what I like to do is have a gigantic subject and then distill it down into what I think are its most important and interesting and essential elements. I like having huge subjects like happiness or Winston Churchill and trying to distill that down. You're right. Churchill is so different from JFK, though, of course, they knew each other. But for me, they were interesting, because they're such gigantic characters. And they've been so studied and so discussed and looked at so closely that they're like, larger than life, like we can see things in human nature

more clearly in them just because they are so oversized. And so that's what drew me to those two biographies. Very cool. What did you come to learn about Churchill that maybe most people wouldn't know because either they haven't read your book, but certainly haven't studied deep enough about this formative leader? Oh, where do I begin? I mean, the thing about Churchill is that he, I mean, the way that I wrote these biographies is about the trouble, the problem of biography, which is that there can be no definitive account of a life. There's always multiple ways of interpretation and you can always create, I can, I can lead you in any direction as a biographer by, by giving you certain facts

and highlighting certain information at the expense of other. I can't include all facts in my account or it would be infinitely long. And so I'm telling you certain things expense of others. I can't include all facts in my account or it would be infinitely long. And so I'm telling you certain things and not others. So there's the heroic Churchill and then there's quite the opposite Churchill. Both are true. And so that's kind of what my biography is about. Who was Winston Churchill and how could we, it's called 40 Ways to Look at Winston Churchill, how could we see him in 40 different ways? That's awesome. Okay. And that's a really cool insight because people are not unidimensional, right? There's lots of different facets that we have. And I'd like to run a couple of things by you and see how you bounce off of it or reflect on it is that

oftentimes people, when we ask people what they want, and now this is right square in your research and your writings, what do you want? And they'll say, I want to be happy. And for me, there's usually a pause. And that pause for me is like, is that really what we want? And the quest for happiness is certainly important, but there's so much more. Just like there's so much more to Winston Churchill, there's so much more to JFK, there's so much more to you and me in my life, not just one facet, not just one emotion.

So how do you wrestle with that piece? Well, one of the ways that I find it's helpful to think about happiness, well, first of all, I never define happiness because you can drive yourself crazy. I started out in law and spent an entire semester arguing about the definition of contract. And there's something like 15 or 17 definitions of happiness. So you can spend a lot of time arguing about peace, satisfaction, contentment, fulfillment, purpose. So there's that whole definitional question. So I just say, just call it happiness. I like the looseness of it. And then because you're right, it can get

sort of like, what's going on here? What are we really talking about when we say we want to be happier? So I found it helpful to think about it in sort of four steps. So to be happy, to have a happier life, one is you have to think about feeling good. And so you want to feel good. You want to have love. You want to have enthusiasm. You want to have your curiosity fulfilled. You want to have challenges that you can meet. So you want to feel good. But then you also want to think about feeling bad. What makes you feel bad? Where do you feel anger, resentment, guilt, anger? And you want to feel less feeling bad because often these negative emotions are important signposts for why you

need to have changed. You know, if you feel guilty about something, maybe it's because in some way, you're not living up to your values. So that guilt is an important signal. So there's feeling good, feeling bad. Those are kind of obvious. Then there's feeling right. And feeling right is a little bit more complicated because sometimes the things that we do to feel right aren't things that make us feel good because we're doing things to live up to our values even though we don't actually find, like, it doesn't make us happy. Happiness doesn't always make us feel happy. So, and I always think of this when a friend was telling me, I don't understand why I'm going to the hospital to visit my father. I mean, he was a big jerk to me my whole childhood. My two brothers refused to see him. He's still as big a jerk as he ever has been. And yet I keep going and visiting him. I dread it. I hate every minute I spend at his bedside. And then I look back on it with, you know, and yet I'm going and I'm like, yeah, because you want to feel right. Because in your mind, this is what you do as a son. And this is the right way to behave. Even though it's not making you feel good, it's actually making you feel bad. It's making you feel right, because you're doing something to live up to your values. And then there's the atmosphere of growth. And the atmosphere of growth is that we're happiest when we're growing, when we're fixing something or learning something or helping someone or pushing ourselves forward or doing something to make growth in the world. And sometimes you're like, even when everything else in your life is very bleak, if you can have the atmosphere of growth, that can be an

engine for happiness. It's very much within our control. So I think those are the ways, that's how I like to think about it because otherwise it gets very complicated, I think, to think about, well, what do you want? And I'm like, well, just think about feeling good, feeling bad, feeling right in an atmosphere of growth. That to me makes it clear to think through. Okay. And then if you add one more dimension to it, how do you help people embrace sadness? Where does that fit into your equation? Is that good or is that bad? Well, I would say that's feeling bad, but you would say, but maybe it's feeling right. You're like, well, of course it's right that I would be full of grief that my mother died. I don't think what we want from life is a life where we're at 10 on the one to 10 scale in happiness. That's not realistic, first of all, and it wouldn't even be a good life. And I don't think that's what anybody's aiming for. I don't think anybody's like to have a happy life. What I really need to try for is a life in which I have

no negative emotions. I don't think that people think that that's something that they would want. I mean, that, that just sounds, that sounds almost anesthetized. So you have those negative, those negative emotions are part of a happy life. You're feeling bad. It's part of, it's feeling bad. Yeah, I'm right. That was kind of the initial query, if you will, in that question, which was like, it's not just happy.

It's not just joy. I want to feel and experience more of that. And I think a lot of people that are searching and exploring in life want more of that, but they also want to amplify other emotions as well that are not quote unquote good, but they're hard. Do you think they want to feel more sorrow? Yeah, I think that's a, I think there's a gender twist to that. And I think that for many young boys, we're taught not to feel much. And so as we get a bit older, a bit mature, a bit more aware that, yeah, when somebody dies, when something is sad, I want to have the capacity to feel sad. So you want greater intensity of emotion.

Better connection and better authentic expression yeah so i so i think that um there's a gender thing in there because the sandbox is so different for us and that that was my that was my first part of that question is like um how are you thinking about negative uh not negative but bad and good which you. And then is sadness necessarily bad? I think it's hard. It's really, it's like, and I don't mean chronic sadness, right? But like, when somebody dies or something dies, and this is a high order thought for me. Like, do I want to be sad? Because I also understand that this is natural. Death takes place. What am I sad for?

Is this like a selfish feeling that I'm sad that they're no longer in my life? Well, wait a minute. They lived a good life. Is this actually guilt masquerading as sadness? So I don't want to be too heavy and too dark. But if we're going to talk about the light of happiness, I think it's also important to understand like how do we deal with difficult emotions mm-hmm yeah well I think they have a lot to teach us because yeah you're right like when you're feeling that emotion you can say well what what am I feeling and why am I feeling it I think they're

meant to help guide us often I mean sorrow is sorrow at the loss of someone is not instructive in the way that like, anger is instructive, or resentment is instructive, or guilt is instructive. Because why do you feel guilty? Are you are you doing something that you know, you shouldn't be doing? Well, that's a good thing to know. Yeah. If you're really circular resentment, if you're feeling resentful, if somebody's taking advantage of you,'s a good thing to know. If you're feeling resentful, is somebody taking advantage of you? Maybe you need to fix that. If you're feeling lonely, I mean, loneliness is a terrible emotion. Maybe that's going to help drive you to connect with people because you're like, I don't want to sit out at home. I need to meet people. And so that's going to be a very helpful emotion. Or, you know, I'm really bored. So yeah, you know what, I think I will pick up the guitar

and practice because I don't have anything else going on. So yeah, I think practicing the guitar sounds like it would be fun. You know, so these negative emotions can be very helpful. Yeah, for sure. Okay, cool. And then what we're taught for so, so long is to not feel those, and they're certainly not appropriate in certain contexts. And then, so when we mute them, what that muting eventually does to, I think to strengthen the position that you're in is that it doesn't help us understand how to change and to, to,

to express and relieve those other more difficult emotions so that we can be free enough to feel happy and joy and, and a sense of contentment. Right. Okay. That's a, that's a really good point that I had never really thought of. Right.

If you numb yourself to it, then you're not getting the signaling value that the emotion is supposed to provide. So you're like, you're not fixing anything in your life. You're not moving forward given that information from yourself. Yeah, right. And then, so I'd love for you to bounce off this principle. And, you know, this is great, Gretchen. We're jumping right into the weeds, like into the difficult stuff.

And there's so much more I want to understand about how you got here and what you've deeply understood here. But my second question is, I think it's more nuanced and textured, which is, is it possible to live a life that is free from the burden of difficulty motions? And if it is, which I think it is, what are the strategies to help people be more free and be more open? The question is, is it possible to live? I don't think it is. I mean, can you have a life where no one dies, where no one goes into the hospital, where nobody gets fired,

where bad things don't happen in the news. I don't know. I mean, you can relinquish attachment and not care. Let me intensify the word that I think was not emphasized enough, which is burdened. Burdened by difficult emotions. And so, you know, that's, but that's the hard part of life is that I feel stuff and I feel burdened by it. And I don't know how to, I don't know how to release it, to move this is where your framework comes into place, but what are the strategies to help people enjoy and experience more happiness? Well, one of the things I think is very true is that there is no magic one size fits all solution for everyone because we're all different. We all have very, we have different interests, different values, different temperaments. And so it can't be that like, you know, if all of us spent a half an hour listening to music, we would be happier. Or

if all, you know, if all of us, I think each of us has to decide what our own happiness project would be. Because for each one of us, what is, what needs to be fixed is different. And also what brings us happiness is different. So for one person, it might be connecting with animals would be a huge source of joy. So they're going to volunteer at an animal shelter and they're going to foster kittens. I know somebody like this who's constantly showing me pictures of these like funny kittens that she fosters. That would not bring me happiness. I wouldn't be able to do that.

But for her, it's like it's something where, you know, she has the atmosphere of growth. She's helping other creatures. She's connecting with people who share her values. You know, it's a tremendous engine of happiness. I think one of the things about my approach is it's very concrete. Like I don't really think that much like in the abstract about like how would a person live, you know, like a life unburdened by negative emotions. Like that's that is something for me, that's hard to think about, because it's so transcendent. So I think much more like, well, if you're feeling like you want to be happier, or you're feeling burdened by negative emotions,

what can you do tomorrow? You know, like, what would you do? What would you actually physically, concretely do tomorrow that might address that? So I take it really down to the very, very concrete and almost like like visual. It's like, can you see yourself doing something different? It's not very it's not very internal. It's not it's not in your head. It's what you're doing, because I just feel like that's so much easier to control. I love it. Yeah, for sure. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing

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they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code finding mastery 20 at checkout again that's felix gray you spell it f-e-l-i-x g-r-a-y dot com and use the code finding mastery 20 at felix gray dot com for 20 off teach us about the the your core principles and the tendencies the four tendencies framework that you've created here. So the four tendencies framework grew out of my study of habits. So I've been writing and researching happiness for a long time, and I began to notice that a lot of times people knew what would make them happier,

but they were just having trouble following through. Like they would say, I know I'd be happier if I quit sugar, or if I did more reading, or I worked on my novel, or I went to sleep on time, or whatever it was, exercise, but I'm just not doing it. And so I became very interested in how habits have this very important role to play in a happy life. And then I got interested, well, why can't people form habits when they want to? And so I identified 21 strategies that people can use to make or break habits. And that was my book, Better Than Before. But one of the things that I kind of stumbled on as I was trying to understand habits is this four tendencies framework. And this is, I divide the world into four categories. They say there are two kinds of people, the kind of people that like to

divide people into two kinds, the kind of people who don't. Um, and I, and this had, this had some relevance to habits, but it's actually much bigger than habits because your tendency will affect how you most effectively form habits, but will also affect many ways that you make decisions or relate to people in ways that aren't related to habits, but are just like other parts of your life. So what did it now I have a quiz online. If people want to take a quiz, it's at happiercast.com slash quiz. And like a million people have taken this quiz now, literally. But most people, I'll give a brief description, and most people can tell what they are just from this brief description. And I want to hear what you are.

So this has to do with how you respond to expectations, outer expectations like a work deadline or a request from a friend, and inner expectations, your own desire to keep a New Year's resolution, your own desire to get back into practicing French. So there are upholders, questioners, obligers, and rebels. Upholders readily meet outer and inner expectations. They meet the work deadline, they keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss. They want to know what other people expect from them, but their expectations for themselves are just as important. Then there are questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. So they make everything an inner expectation. If something meets their standard, they're like, yeah, that makes sense. They'll do it. If it fails their standard,

they will resist. And they typically resist anything that they feel is arbitrary or inefficient or unjustified. Then there are obligers. Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. And I got my insight into this tendency when a friend of mine said, the weird thing about me is I know I would be happier if I exercised. And when I was in high school, I was on the track team and I never missed track practice. So why can't I go running now? Like now I know she's an obliger. When she had a team and a coach waiting for her. She could go.

No problem. When she was just trying to go on her own, she struggled. And then finally, rebels, rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. And if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist. Typically, they don't even want to tell themselves what to do. Like they won't sign up for a 10 a.m. yoga class on Saturday because they're like, I don't know what I'm going to want to do on Saturday. And just the fact that somebody is expecting me to show up at 10 a.m. is just going to annoy me. So those are the four tendencies. And it comes up a lot with habits and then all throughout our lives.

It's really clean. And I think I've seen an image of this before, and I wanted to ask this question. I'll answer mine in a minute. But I think you have the image a bit like a Venn diagram where they overlap in some ways, right? So you could have a couple tendencies overlap. For me, as you're going through it, I clearly sit right in the questioner with a little bit of rebel and a little bit of upholder. But out of the upholder and rebel, it's more of the rebel. So questioner, which is, I really do what I think and internally driven. And I don't know where that

came from, but it feels so strong. I mean, it must be early in my life that that was shaped. And then that rebel part is like, hey, listen, I love getting on the edge and I'm never quite sure what's going to happen. And a little bit more of that counterintuitive off-access appreciation for both the dark side, the light side, but the edge side of the human experience. But the really important people in my life, if they expect something from me, I'm like, Yeah, okay, I'm there with you. And so the questioner for me, how about for you? I've been a folder. And it's interesting. So the biggest tendency for both men and women, the one that most people belong to is quest is obliger, the ones who readily meet out of a struggle to meet enter, that's the biggest tendency and then questioner. So your tendency

is the second largest tendency. The smallest tendency is is rebel it's a conspicuous tendency but it's very small but a polder tendency is only slightly larger um not that many people are polders yeah yeah okay so that's a you know i don't want to compare what your tendency is any in any vein to like a Myers Briggs, but I love Myers Briggs type indicator, but I love the fun of simplicity distilled to say, Hey, where do you kind of fit? And I don't know why my brain loves that. But I feel like it's a really fun exercise for people to go, Oh, I'm more like that type of group of characteristics than the other type. And yeah, I think it's very helpful to have a vocabulary and kind of a shorthand to get up these ideas so that you don't have to kind of, and just when you sort of see like, well,

this is a kind of person, it's very clarifying. One of the things I like about my framework is it only describes one narrow aspect of your personality. I think sometimes people want to create a whole picture, either with their framework or even in like how they're like, oh, of course, a rebel is innovative or narcissistic. And they're like really creative. And I'm like, no, we don't know anything about that rebel. All we know about that rebel is that they resist expectations. And we could take, you know, your question and we could take 50 questioners and line them up.

And depending on how analytical they were, how intellectual they were, how considerate of other people's feelings they were, what their values were, how adventurous they were, how extroverted or introverted they were. They'd be very different from each other. But as to one thing, how would they respond to expectations? They'd always say, why should I? That's what questioners say. Why should I? That's their, that's like their fundamental way. But so I think it's, it's because I think sometimes people want to like paint a whole picture around, um around even like the word rubble or the word upholder. And I'm like, you don't all you know is one little narrow thing. But that narrow thing is very important. And I completely agree with you that having a vocabulary and being able to say these people are kind of like me and these people are very different from me.

It just it's just it just makes things quicker. You can just think more clearly and you can talk to people about differences in a more impersonal way. Cause it's like, I know you're like this and I'm like that. So, okay, fine. Yeah. And it also creates a framework for thinking about habit change or behavioral change or even thinking pattern change. If you're an upholder, then you're likely going to be influenced by what other people think or have expectations about you, correct? And so if you and I get together and say, hey, here's a plan. Let's talk about what you really want, and then let's shape some behaviors and patterns that will support it.

And if we're on the same page, you're likely to have greater influence. If I understand your theory right, you're likely to have greater impact, I'm sorry, on the behavioral change based on my expectations of you, as well as as long as they line up with your expectations. Is that as long as they line up with my expectations for myself? That's right. Yeah. Because that's the deep affinity of questioners and upholders is that they both will meet their inner expectations. Yeah, there you go. Okay. And then so if somebody wants to, let's say, make a New Year's resolution, which I know lots of reasons why they don't work. Would it help for somebody to have a sense of where they are in your tendencies?

Absolutely. A hundred percent. And you can often, like, if you're trying to like very quickly figure out someone's tendency, knowing how they feel about New Year's resolution is often a very good tip off. So, you know, obligers often, and I'll start with them because they're the largest group. They will often say that they've given up making New Year's resolutions because they've tried and failed so often in the past. They've really let themselves down. They feel very discouraged. And so, and there's something that's so easy for obligers. If you're an obliger and you're, you want to make a New Year's resolution and you're afraid that you're going to let yourself down once again, here's the answer. Ta-da. I'm going

to pull back the curtain and tell you the solution. Create outer accountability. Create outer accountability for your inner expectation. If you want to read more, join a book group. If you want to exercise, take a class, work out with a trainer, work out with a friend who will be disappointed if you don't go. Think about taking your dog who will be so disappointed if he doesn't get his daily run. Run for a charity where they won't make as much money if you don't complete it. Think of your duty to your future self. Think of your duty to be a role model for other people. There's a million ways to plug in outer accountability, but that's what you need.

But a lot of people, upholders, questioners, and rebels will say things to obligers like, you just got to want it. You got to make time for yourself. You got to make it a priority. Like, you just got to, like, let me show you this study about how important it is for you to exercise. That's not going to work for obligers. No, no, no. What they need is outer accountability and accountability partner.

I mean, there's a million ways to do it. That's what they need. Now, a lot of people want to say they shouldn't need it. It doesn't matter what they should or shouldn't do. That's what works. And that's very, very easy to do. Questioners often will say things like, well, I would never make a New Year's resolution because January 1st is an arbitrary date.

If something's important to me, I'm going to go ahead and do it right away. I'm not going to wait for some date in January. That's a thousand percent how I think about it. And I've written about it a lot. Like, get over it. Like, start today if you're interested in it. That's very questioner. So and for questioners, when questioners struggle, like, let's say they're like, I was talking to a questioner recently, who was having trouble

because really wanted to eat healthier and was just like not following through. And I said, I said, for questioners, it's all about clarity and justification. And once they've really truly decided that something is the best, the most efficient way that it's customized for them and what they need, that they really trust the authority they're listening to or the or the information that they're using, once they really, truly buy in, their actions follow. And I'm like, so you say that you're following this, you know, you've talked to this nutritionist. Do you really believe this is what you should be doing? And he's like, 100% not. I don't have faith in this nutritionist. do you really believe this is what you should be doing? And he's like, a hundred percent, not, I don't have faith in this nutritionist. I don't necessarily think this is the best way for me to eat. And I'm like, well then of course you're not doing it because

you don't, you're like, why should I do it this way? Why am I getting, you know, I'm like, you've got to find, you've got to put in the time for yourself to get yourself like convinced. This is what I need to do. I'm married to a questioner and I've seen him be like, he will adopt the most radical habit like overnight. Cause he just, once he decides, you know, he's just like, Oh yeah, I decided I should do high intensity strength training. And then he's like, and then he just goes from then on once he's made that decision. So for questioners, it's the clarity for rebels, the rebels, it's tricky because rebels don't even want to tell themselves what to do. So typically they wouldn't make a new year's resolution because they wouldn't find themselves in advance. Sometimes they like a

challenge. Like sometimes they like a challenge. Like you think I can't run the marathon in 2018? Well, I'll show you, or, you know, you think I can't quit sugar for a whole year? Watch me. You know, you think that I'm a slave to nicotine? Well, I'm not, you know, I'm not chained to cigarettes. Like the big, the big tobacco companies can't control me, I'm not, you know, I'm not chained to cigarettes. Like the big, the big tobacco companies can't control me. I'm going to quit. Like they can do that. But also rebels often do better when they are expressing their identity. So rather than thinking like I have to eat this way, or I should eat this way, or I can't eat this food. It's more like tap into your identity. I'm a healthy, vital person. I don't want to fill my body with junk food or processed food. I want

fresh ingredients. I love to challenge myself to cook new things or to try new foods. I like to go to the farmer's market and be out in the fresh air and seeing the beautiful produce. And then I like to buy it and take it home and like make something and blow people away with. This is my thing. This is what I do. Yeah. Right. So you tap into that identity. You know, one of the things with rebels that i found useful and i i didn't know i didn't know your lexicon before you introduced it is like saying to people early like if i've got a suspicion that like wow this person they don't even realize it but it's like they've got a drug use habit here that is starting to creep in to take over and so early in that process i'll bring it up like hey do you realize like you're you're smoking a lot more than

most people or you're drinking a lot more than most people and like it seems like it's showing up and they're like like i don't know like whatever and then you and then the question right to a rebel that i think has been like really great for me is well if you know could you stop and they say yeah say prove it oh you're challenging me yeah if you say you're tough like prove it. Oh, you're challenging me? Yeah. If you say you're tough, prove it. And like, all right, well, how long? And say, well, can you do it for a month? I don't know. I could if I wanted to. Right. That's what a rebel would say. I could if I wanted to. And that is 100% correct. They can do anything they want to do. Well, funny to that example, somebody emailed me to say, I want my husband who's a rebel to quit smoking. What can I say to him? So I went through a bunch of messages that might try, that might work. And

then she emailed me back later and she said, well, you know, the thing that worked was sort of along the lines of something you suggested. She said, our 18 year old son said, dad, an old guy like you could never quit smoking. And he's like, you don't think so? Yeah. So it is that, um, it, yeah, it is that feeling of like, I'm not going to be controlled. Like I can do, I can do these things. I can, I can push myself. Yeah. So, but it's interesting. And then upholders, like they can keep near-sight solutions that they want. Like, this is not, that is the kind of thing that upholders, um, it definitely, it's handy to be an upholder. That's what they're good at. That's what I'm good at. But what's interesting is that if you don't understand the tendencies, you might really be sabotaging somebody else with

your advice with the best intentions, the most loving of gestures. So for instance, somebody, I gave a speech and this woman came up to me afterwards and she said, Oh, I realized like I've really been interfering with my son. And I said, Well, what's going on? And she said, Well, my son wants to study for the GRE, which is like the, um, the graduate, the big graduate admissions test. People really study for it. And she said, and he kept saying to me, mom, I need to take a class. And I kept saying, oh no, honey. Um, if it's important to you to do well in the class, you can just buy a book and study on your own. You don't need to go through all that. And she was like, but now I realized my son is a hundred percent an obliger. He does need to be in a class. He needs the outer accountability of being in the class and showing up and having an

assignment and knowing that the teacher is going to check us work and that like all the all the students around whom are also studying. She's a questioner. She doesn't need that. I studied for the bar on my own. You know, I don't need that accountability, but others do. And so you want to be very aware that like, just because you don't need that accountability, but others do. And so you want to be very aware that like, just because you don't need something doesn't mean that somebody else doesn't need it. Or like with a rebel, you know, you might think to yourself, well, you know, I want to help this rebel child practice. So we're going to make a chart. And I, you know, and every day at four o'clock, I'm going to remind this child to practice and I'm going to give them a star every time they

do a good job. And I'm going to promise them that if they do it five times, then I'll buy them this treat. And if they don't do it, then they're going to lose this privilege. And the rebel's just like, yeah, you know what? You can't make me practice. You're not the boss of me. You can't tell me what to do. That's not the way to reach a rebel. That's just a hundred. Now it might work with an obliger. It might work with a questioner. It might work with an upholder. All these, there's all these different things things but like that kind of communication isn't going to make a rebel resist and in fact you might have a rebel child who would be very happy to practice if that was their choice but when you're reminding them to practice they won't because they don't want to do what you're telling them to do and over and over rebels will

say to me i was going to do x Z thing until somebody told me to do it. I was going to look for a job until my wife reminded me that it was time to start making phone calls. And then I'm like, well, I'm not going to do it today. I mean, so knowing the tendencies can make it a lot easier not to get in each other's way. Or like your well-meaning advice might not work for someone else. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down.

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and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. So have you found any patterns in relationship satisfaction or like the connectivity when people don't, maybe they don't really realize what another person is, but you can spot it. And there's, you know, are there two that are harder to work with each other? Like a rebel and an upholder might have more tension than a rebel and a questioner. Yeah, no, you're exactly right. I think that the one that's typically the

most difficult is rebel and upholder because they're the kind of the more extreme personalities and they're very opposite of each other. Interestingly, the pattern that's the most dominant, like the pattern that you see most often that's really a very striking and stable pattern is if there is a rebel who is paired up either in romance or at work, like let's say you have a founding team or like a creative team, almost always that rebel is paired with an obliger. And so if I'm talking to somebody and they're like, oh, I'm a rebel, but I don't know what my spouse is. I'm like, yeah, your spouse is almost certainly an obliger because that is by far the dominant pairing for rebels.

Not to say that it can't work in other circumstances, but that's the one that works the best for rebels. Obligers are the tendency that they're kind of like the type O, you know, in the blood type, because they're the ones that they match up the most easily with the other three tendencies. And is there, okay, this is, I'm going to put a label, like a judgmental label on this, but is the obliger seems like they maybe would fit a bit more into a codependent pattern. And have you, is that close or is that like, no, no, no, you got that wrong because codependency by definition is that my happiness depends on your happiness, right? Like I'm, I'm okay if you're okay. And is an obliger closer to that than any of the others?

Well, the thing is, you know, you can have, there's some obligers that are very kind of people-pleasery. And then there's some obligers that are not, that really don't care about other people's feelings. And like, they only do what's expected of them if they're going to actually get in trouble from a real person. So it might be that the upholder tendency might protect you. The rebel tendency might protect you from some kind of negative patterns that could lead to codependency. But I don't know. I haven't thought a lot about codependency. So I would need to study what is the definition of it, what's the strict definition of it? And think through how it might come up.

On the note of codependency, I think that that'd be fun for you to explore. I'd love to talk to you more about it because we see that true happiness and joy are hard for codependents because their life efforts, the way that they think and do are so commingled with somebody else that is really the driving force behind wellness or destruction in life. And like, I think that that'd be a fun little offshoot to pay attention to. Well, you know, something that maybe this is related to what you're thinking about. So one of the things, so I find that when I talk to obligers, they often miss, in my mind, mischaracterize the, the, the phenomenon the phenomenon of what's going on with obligerness. So they might

say something like, well, I can never take time for myself, or I always put others before me, or I can't make my own needs a priority. Others always come first. And I'm like, that's not really what's going on to my mind. What you're doing is you're meeting outer expectations, but failing to meet inner expectations. And this is a subtle difference, but it's important because if an obliger says, I put other people before me and I don't make time for myself, it suggests, and obligers often make this mistake, if outer expectations would vanish, inner expectations could then be met. So I have this demanding job. If I quit my demanding job, then I will have time to do everything on my bucket list. If I retire early, I will make time for myself. Once my children are out of the house, then I will finally get into shape because I won't have to be meeting their

demands. No, that is not what happened with obligers because it's not that outer expectations are getting priority or somehow getting respect or that there's some kind of self-sacrifice on the part of the obliger. It's just that they're meeting outer expectations and not meeting inner expectations. And I'll always say to an obliger, well, if you take an inner expectation and create outer accountability, then do you follow through? And they're always like, well, then I do follow through. So I'm like, well, then you are able to make yourself a priority once you have the outer accountability around it. And so I think that sometimes obligers might think that they're codependent because

they're characterizing the pattern in that way. Whereas I would be like, no, you can get rid of all that gloss. That is not the essential part of what's going on here. It's more of an explanation for it. You're seeking to understand why you would do this. And I think, well, you don't have to go that far because it's just about outer expectations and inner expectations. Brilliant. Yeah. Because you're tapping into what drive and motivation and the way that you think about, you know, what, what you expect for yourself or what you expect or what others expect of

you as well. And all of that is for me, it always feels pretty messy. Sometimes every once in a while, it's really bright and clean. Like, oh, look, that person is so externally driven and motivated. As soon as they get the rabbit or the carrot or whatever that's that tree does that they're looking for, that they stop running. So like, it's super clean sometimes, but most of the time, it's pretty messy. Yeah. So what challenges you the most in either your craft or your life? Like,

what are the deeper challenges for you? One is delegation, I need to delegate more. And that is, that's a challenge for me, as a process. And that's something that I like, I'm going to be working on in the next year is like how to think about what I should delegate and how I should delegate, which is like something that I'm not interested in, but I need to do it. And, you know, one thing is I have, I have the same problem. A lot of people have, it's like, I have more things that I want to do than I, than I have time to do them. And I really, I really need time to just like hang out, read for fun, be with my family and friends, go for a long walk in Central Park. And so I don't want to be working frantically all the time. But I also have so many things that I want to do that are exciting and fun. And so that can be frustrating. So it's about like, how do I use my time well by delegating so that I have plenty

of time for all the things that are most interesting and exciting to me. And then so delegation sometimes I recognize this early for me is that like I had this underlying thought that if I delegate it, it's not going to get done fast enough or right enough to some arbitrary standard that I've built. And it like, it was really born out of a lot of control, like a need for control and a fear of giving control. And then like, is that close to you? Or is that, is that not it? It's something else. I think for me, it's a more practical problem in that I need to find a person to whom I can delegate and set up a system where it's like, what is the assignment? Where are we going with this? How are we going to do it? And it's like, I have to find that person. I mean, it just, it feels like the process of like finding,

I think I'd be fine handing it over, uh, the kinds of things that I want to do. I would still be having ultimate control, but, um, it's really about just putting, you know, I want to do, I would still be having ultimate control. But it's really about just putting, you know, I'm by myself, you know, so anybody that I want to work with, I have to find them and create that relationship. And it's not like I work at a big team. And it's like, Oh, do we have anybody who does spreadsheets? And they're like, Yeah, Joe knows how to do a spreadsheet. You know, it's like, I guess so it just feels very, it feels very daunting. And it's not an interesting problem for me. And so I just keep postponing it feels very daunting. And it's not an interesting problem for me. And so I just keep postponing it. And so I need to just bite the bullet and figure out, okay,

I need to like, figure out like, how do I solve this problem? What exactly do I need? How do I how I you know, like that. So to me, it's more like, you know, every, every, every vocate, everything, every vocation has drudge work. And for me, that's a kind of drudge work that I just, you know, I want to do the fun parts. And so me, that's a kind of drudge work that I just, you know, I want to do the fun parts. And so I need to have the discipline to make myself do that drudge work, which then will allow me to do more fun work ultimately. But I got to get through that. Okay. Is there a word or phrase that cuts to the center of who you are? This is really about a philosophy. Like, do you have a philosophy that you've been able to articulate?

I would say my first personal commandment is to be Gretchen. I think that's the most profound rule that I live by. That's really cool. That begs the question, who is Gretchen? That's the great challenge of my life, is to what is Gretchen? I don't really try to put it into words I feel like that would be very reductive and also it's like would it be authentic like I I mean I didn't even know it's not a question of adjectives you know yeah the um the thought about a philosophy um that I'm trying to sort out is

many of the most powerful people in the world were really clear about what they stood for and and it sounds like what you're saying is like what's most clear is like i need to be me yeah right and then like i don't know nelson, you know, was clearly straight in the center of equality and Dr. King and Malcolm X, like it was about equality, all different tones in the way that they went about it. And so is, is that closely linked to your mission for other people to help other people be find and be themselves? Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. That's what I write about all the time. Yeah. And then that's at the core of everything that I've done. So, cause that brings me to your title better than before.

Great title. And did you, did you come up with the title or did you have help doing it? Like how did, how did great titles happen for you? Well, I'm glad you think it's a great title. I wasn't sure. Um, for a long time I called it before and after, because I thought I loved the idea of before and after. And I really saw habits as being like this, this, this way of

helping people have profound transformation. And then my daughter came up with this brilliant phrase when she was eight years old, she saw the movie Lost Horizon. And she got so enchanted with it, you know, Shangri-La and everything. She was like, I'm going to write a novel that's the sequel. So as an eight year old, she's like, writes this chapter, which was very cute about kind of the marriage of the two main characters. And I was like, well, what's the title of your novel? And she said, Everyday Life in Utopia. And I was like, oh my gosh, I want to name my book that, Everyday Life in Utopia. But I thought better than before. I'm glad that you like it because it's just like one step in front of the other. It's like, you know, people can get very hung up thinking about like, oh, am I happy? What is a happy life? How do I

get there? How do I stay there? And it's just like, you know, people can get very hung up thinking about like, Oh, am I happy? What is a happy life? How do I get there? How do I stay there? And it's just like, you know, just today, tomorrow, next week, next month, what could you do to be better than before? You know, like, what could you do to just be happier? And then I think that kind of makes it seem more like a, like a, not an insurmountable goal because you're just like, I just want to be better than before. Yeah.

It's so like your approach is very practical, but it is, the title is very practical as well. And then, okay. So in that, it's really about habits for you, right? And you've got 12 habits. Well, in that book, in that book, it's about habits. That's what that book, Better Than Before is all about habits. Yeah.

And then I wouldn't say I'm all about habits, but I, but I, I'm, I love habits. The study of habits. Yeah, for sure. and how did you come up with your 12 habits there's 21 strategies of habit change um i thought there was 12 habit manifesto is that something different that might be something different okay okay cool so i did some research a lot of numbered lists yeah yeah yeah yeah and i was just okay so how did you come up how do you come up? How do you come up with them?

Do you, is it research-based? Is it intuitive-based? Is it distilling of scientific recommendations and theory? Like where did they come from for you? Well, you know, I cast a very wide net and that's part of what I love. My favorite, one of my favorite parts of writing a book is the research because a lot of times, you know, I'll start with the kind of the things that you can identify. So I read a ton about habit formation, a ton about willpower, a lot about self control, I read about addiction, I read about like decision making, you know, all these kind of science things, anything I could think of that sort of touched on habits.

But then also, I would read memoirs, I would read biographies, I would look, you know, I'd be reading novels, I would always be looking, I would be talking to people. A lot of my biggest insights just came from like weird conversations that I had with people. Like a friend of mine said, you know, I decided that in order to get back into the habit of running, I would train for the marathon. And I trained for the marathon and it was amazing. I had a great time. And then I took those rest days off that they tell you to take after you train for the marathon. And I haven't run since. And I was like, this is blowing my mind. I heard many people say similar things. Like, how do you, how do you explain that? Like traditional habit formation theory would say that that would not happen, but it was happening. So how do you explain that?

So part of it is I'm, I take these, I have these giant documents where I write all my notes just in one giant document. And then at a certain point, I start feeling my argument. I start, I learn, I've learned enough that I'm like, you know what, I'm starting to have a point of view. I'm starting to see patterns. I'm starting to see, like, I'm starting to see how things are fitting together. Like maybe these two people are talking about the same idea. They're using different vocabulary, but it's actually the same idea, or it's two examples of the same thing. And so so then then that's when I start trying to sift it down into being a book so so I definitely love the science I read the science but I don't

but it's not only the science that I'm looking at very cool very cool okay so for you this is squarely about you are you more street savvy or more analytical more analytical yeah and then when you make decisions, are they slow or more fast? I don't know. I never really observed myself making decisions, so I don't really know. It would depend on what it was. Yeah, just being in this conversation with you,

you certainly are thoughtful and you think. And you're not ready to co-sign something you haven't thought before just to socially appease the ease of the conversation. So it makes me think that, which I think is wonderful. I would imagine that you contemplate deeply, which tends to look like a little bit slower decision to someone that is maybe more impulsive. Hmm. Well, I've definitely learned you never have to say yes on the spot. You never have to decide on the spot. You can always take a little time.

That's the law on you. You know, I think that this is obviously not a fair characterization, but lawyers in general tend to, and engineers, tend to be very skilled at finding the holes. What's not. Yeah.

No, a hundred percent. That's what they're trained to do. Yes, absolutely. And I think that leads us down the path of pessimism. And I think, and I know that,

yeah. And like, you know, like the critic, right? For sure. The critic, which I think squarely gets in the way of joy and happiness.

And it's doesn't, it does not confuse me at all that you were trained as a lawyer and said, wait, wait, wait, I came from a happy upbringing. I've been now trained to find all the flaws in whatever it is that I'm looking for. And wait, I want to study happiness. It like really makes sense for me how you, you found this journey. Um, no, but I feel like it's a huge help to me because one of the great sort of limitations I see in a lot of things around me is people will argue vociferously for something. Like, just to take an example,

like, technology is making us all more isolated. And they'll talk and talk and talk about that, and I'm like, okay, but let's just say, can I argue that technology is making us less isolated? And they're like, oh, I never thought about that. And I'm like, really benefited from always thinking, well, somebody was going to attack me. If somebody was going to say, no, you can't say this. Or what about this exception? And what would you say in this situation? And what about the person who would talk about this research? Like you have to account for all of the the counterexamples. I feel like that's good. I mean, I feel like I feel like that's a very important writerly skill if you're trying to make an argument.

Yeah, I think I start to cringe when I hear people say, well, everybody on the world stage. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah, that's pretty broad. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Is there a phrase, a positive shaping phrase that, and a negative shaping phrase that people have said to you that have impacted your life? Oh my God, a million. Gosh. I'm trying to think of, I mean, like a million.

So a positive or a negative shaping. Oh, well, here's one that was negative. And now I'm like, what was I thinking? So I was, this was several years ago, many years ago. And for a long time, I myself did not realize that my subject was human nature. I like I saw that I was casting about in these different fields, but I didn't really understand how they all connected. And so then all of a sudden, I was like, this is like human nature. And of course, that explains everything. And I was like, going back other stuff that I'd done in my life that had never turned into a book, but this is all human nature. So I'm talking to a friend of mine who's a very eminent writer. She's super cool. She's a great writer. You would know her name. And I was like, yeah, you know, my subject's human nature. She's like, human nature

can't be your subject. Like that can't be a subject. And for like a year I was like, oh, I guess it can't be a subject. And then finally I'm like, what? Of course it can be a subject. Why would she say that? She's probably jealous that I said it. And she's like, dang, I should have said that was my subject, you know? But like, why did I even think about that for one minute? Like, what does that even mean? Human nature can't be a subject. Obviously, it can be a subject. But anyway, so that was something where I was like, okay, be Gretchen. And like, why are you even being distracted for five minutes with other person saying about what your subject is? I mean, obviously, your subject is whatever you say it is. So that was a negative shaping thing that comes to mind. What's a positive? There've been so many things

that people have said to me that have been so helpful. It's interesting. I have the happier podcast, which comes out once a week where I talk about happiness with my sister. But every Monday, I have a two minute podcast where I tell a little story about, and often it's about like something that somebody said to me that had enormous consequence. And I'm trying to think what the most important one was, because usually they're related to some aspect of my life. Like a core one. Not that I'm not that spring to mind. Okay.

So if you could jam all those things together, like what would be the one thing that you would wish that people that you knew that really knew you? we could amplify that to people that haven't had the chance to meet you like what would you want to say to them to help them i would say you could you there's no magic one size fits all solution you can build a happy life only on the foundation of your own nature your own values your own interests so if you want to be happier, healthier, more productive, more creative, you have to begin by saying, who are you? What kind of person are you? When have you succeeded in the past? What do you want? What works for you? And not to say, well, this worked for Steve Jobs, so it should work for me. Or this is what my mother wants. This is what I should want. Or everybody's getting married, so I should be getting married.

Maybe, maybe not. Just because something's fun for someone else or makes them happy doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to make you happy and vice versa. And so, you know, you always have to know yourself. And then when you know yourself, you really understand other people much better, too. You can know them better because you'll see that in some ways you're alike and in some ways you're different. And it's not that one person's right and one person's wrong. It's just that sometimes people are alike and sometimes they're different. And it's just, how do we all get where we're trying to go? I love it. Okay. And then how do you think about success? I don't think about success very much. I mean, I think about like, what is this project that I'm working on? Like, how do I get it to the next level? I don't think about the future very much. And part of it,

and I used to really think like, oh, I should think about the future more than I do. But what I realized is that my future in my career has been very unpredictable. I wouldn't have been able to predict what my options or opportunities or what I would be doing in two years. So I'm not sure that it hurts me that much that I don't spend that be doing in two years. So I'm not sure that it hurts me that much that I don't spend that much time thinking about it, because I used to really feel that I should spend much more time thinking about it. So I'm, I focus much more on like, well, I'm working on this thing, like, how can I make this really, really good? And then once it can't be made any better, what do I do to try to give it the most life that it can have? You know,

and if I if I have created something for an audience, I want it to have as big an audience as possible. If I'm writing something, I want it to be as clear and as interesting and as helpful as possible. So I think that's how I think about it. Brilliant. In my work. Yeah, okay, there you go.

And then how do you think about or define or articulate the concept? You love definitions. I do. I do for you. You do love definitions. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's actually what I'm trying to sort out. Like not necessarily the definition, but the practices underneath of it. But I want to, actually what I'm working to do is to think, to better understand how bright minds think about certain concepts. And then how do they, how do they activate those concepts in their life? to do is to think, to better understand how bright minds think about certain concepts. And then how do they, how do they activate those concepts in their life? Like what are the, what are the actual ways that they do it? And you, you, you, you cut to the chase with, you know, the habits and a whole book on tendencies and a whole book on, you know, better than before and the habits that people use and how to break them and make them and all that good stuff. So,

you know, on that note though, habits that people use and how to break them and make them and all that good stuff. So, you know, on that note, though, like, how do you think about mastery? I mean, to me, mastery is the ability to achieve your own aims, you know, and so whether it's self mastery in terms of I want to eat a certain way, or I want to control my temper and speak in a certain way to other people, that's a kind of mastery. Mastery is also like, I want to write a book about habits that I feel like includes every interest, every piece of information that somebody would need to be able to change their habits. That's mastery. Like, am I the master of my material? Am I the master of my craft? And then, you know, and then there's the mastery of like, are you the master of your fate, you know, or of your calendar even?

I mean, I think sometimes people feel like they aren't the masters, that they're just reacting. They're always 10 minutes late. They, you know, can never find any, you know, they're always like have this feeling of no margin in their lives. And that's not a feeling of mastery. So part of it is like feeling that your life is unfolding in the way that is unfolding as you're setting it, not just because you're constantly reacting. Now, obviously, in certain times of our lives, it's not possible to achieve that. Somebody goes into the hospital, it's like, you're not the master of that situation at all. But at certain times, we can try to aim for that. Or like, are you the master of when you

go to bed? Because that's going to make a really big difference in your happiness. You're getting enough sleep. That's going to help a lot. That's an important area of mastery. Like if you can't do anything else, get control of that. So I think that's how I think about mastery. But mastery is a word I love. And that's very upholder.

Mastery is something that upholders love. That is so good. Okay, so I didn't realize you've written more than four books, but the four that I was aware of that the four tendencies better than before the happiness project and happier at home. And obviously people can get them on Barnes and Noble, Amazon, wherever they can find books, but would you prefer that they go to your website? Is there the most, no, um the most no wherever it's most convenient for them their library their whatever wherever they want yeah oh gosh you know you are thoughtful and clear in your thought and the time that you shared are is wonderful so thank you in advance and obviously people can go to find you on your website at gretchenrubin r-u-b-i-n.com

and um find you there are there other ways that people can find you i your website at Gretchen Rubin, R U B I N.com and find you there. Are there other ways that people can find you? I'm all over social media under the name Gretchen Rubin. So Facebook, I have a, I have a weekly Facebook ask Gretchen Rubin live show. I'm on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube. I've got my podcast. Yeah. So, and I love to engage with readers and listeners and viewers. So if you have insights, observations, examples, questions, I love to hear from people. So yeah, I look forward to hearing from your listeners. Awesome. Thank you, Gretchen, for your time. And for those of you who have enjoyed this podcast, head over to iTunes and write a review

if you don't mind. It helps amplify what we're doing and share the word, tell a friend that's always good. And then you can find me at finding mastery.net. You can find me on social at Michael Gervais and on Instagram at finding mastery. So Gretchen, thank you so much.

And the splash and the dent and the carve that you've been creating in the world has been fantastic. So thank you very much. Thank you. I feel like we could talk all afternoon. We're interested in so many of the same subjects. It was a pleasure to talk to you. For sure. Yeah. Okay, great. Thank you again. And look forward to connecting with you online and hopefully our paths cross in the future as well. Absolutely. Take care. Okay, bye. Bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

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