Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Author Jon Gordon on Team Building, Relationships, Connection

Episode Date: June 26, 2017

Jon Gordon is a best-selling author: including The Energy Bus, The Carpenter, Training Camp, The Seed, You Win in the Locker Room First and The No Complaining Rule…..and his newest book: the power of positive leadershipJon has been featured on The Today Show, CNN, CNBC, The Golf Channel, Fox and Friends….and….seems like every other week I hear about him speaking to teams in the NBA, NFL, MLB….or keynoting conferences. Jon has spirit. And I think people are so attracted to him, because of that spirit. You can't help but want to be better around him.Jon played Lacrosse for and is a graduate of Cornell University and holds a Masters in Teaching from Emory University.The main themes for this conversation are about - connection, relationships, leading, striving together and how to succeed as a team. _________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Master podcast i'm michael gervais and the idea behind these conversations is to learn to learn from people who are on the path of mastery to better understand what they're searching for to understand their psychological framework which is how they see the world and themselves in it and we also want to work to understand the mental skills that they use to build and refine their craft. Finding master is brought to you by LinkedIn sales solutions in any high performing environment that I've been part of from elite teams to executive boardrooms.

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And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. Now here's a quick little note. Recently, I was interviewed by Tim Ferriss on his new TV show called Fearless. And the episode, it's an hour long episode. It airs on June 27th at 8 PM, both Eastern and Pacific time. And it's on the audience network. So if you have direct TV, it's channel 239. And then if you have AT&T you, you can find it on those channels as well.

We talked about the mechanics of confidence, ways to build capacity, psychological capacity, specific thoughts on how to explore potential and how people in high stakes environments work with fear. And I'd love for our group, the Finding Mastery Tribe, to surprise the network with an outstanding showing. And, you know, it'd be phenomenal if you ask a handful of your friends to do the same. Now, this conversation is with John Gordon. John has been on the podcast before. And in that conversation, we talked about his process of writing because he's written so many books. In this conversation, it's a little bit different. We get into his new book and the

mechanics of his findings around that. So John is a bestselling author. And here's a list of his books. It's phenomenal. The Energy Bus, The Carpenter, Training Camp, The Seed, You Win from the Locker Room, No Complaining Rule. And his newest book is The Power of Positive Leadership. So just as a quick little bio, he's been featured on the Today Show, CNN, CNBC, the Golf Channel, Fox, and the list goes on and on. And it seems like every other time I turn around or I hear him speaking somewhere, he's in a locker room somewhere in the NBA or the NFL or Major League Baseball. And, you know, he's keynoting conferences all the time. So John's just got a great spirit about him.

And I think people are so attracted to him because of that spirit. And you just can't help but to want to be better around him. And I hope that jumps out in this conversation, his authenticity and his true deep interest in improvement. John also has a tradition in sport as well. He played lacrosse and was a graduate at Cornell University. And he also holds a master's degree in teaching from Emory. So he's got a rich point of view about being an athlete, being a writer, and also how to communicate those. And the main themes for this conversation, it's about connection, it's about relationships, it's about leading and striving on how to succeed as a team. And that's really where

the focus is here. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with John Gordon. John, how are you doing? Doing great, Mike. How are you? Yeah, fantastic. I think this is the first time that I've had a guest on for a second time. And so I just want to catch up with you. I want to find out what's been new in your life. And you've made such an influence on me and people that have called in afterwards or emailed afterwards saying that, God, what John stands for and what he's done in his life, it's fantastic. And so I'm excited to have this second conversation with you. Me too, Mike. Yeah, we really delved into a lot of my past history, but I thought I would love to share more about the work that you do, I do, and what it really means to build a great team,

leadership. So I'm excited about really talking about that today. Is that where you spent most of your energy lately is about team and building team? Very much so. It seems to be my niche now where people are bringing me in to help them build their leadership team or leaders are bringing me in to help them build their team. And it wasn't something that I pursued. It was just something that happened, I guess, writing the book with Mike Smith, you went in the locker room first. But also I really feel like I have a good gist on what it takes to really build a great team. And everyone's looking to do that. So I've been called by coaches and even churches lately have brought me in to help them develop their leadership team and help them become a stronger team. So it's been

interesting. It wasn't something I expected to do. And then what are the core principles that you're working from? The core principles for me are connection and commitment and caring. And the idea that a great team has both love and accountability. So you need to have love where you really love each other, but you must also have accountability where you're helping each other get better. I had a coach tell me that they had become a great family because they loved each other, but they didn't push each other. They didn't challenge each other. They didn't challenge each other. They didn't make each other better. They were almost covering for each other, making excuses for one another because they didn't want to challenge what each other was doing and the wrong things they were doing.

So he said, we were a great family, John, but we weren't a great team. But then we worked at becoming a great team where we held each other accountable. So then they had the love and accountability, won 20 straight games and had an incredible season. And also in talking to various leaders, I recognize that's the key to leadership, right? So instead of tough love, I call it love tough, that if you love each other, you will push each other and challenge each other

to get better. And then this idea of connection, that you really have to be a connected team to be a committed team. There then this idea of connection that, you know, you really have to be a connected team to be a committed team. There's a lot of great speakers out there, a lot of great guys with Navy SEALs and so forth that are doing incredible work talking about their experience. And they talk about, you know, laying down their lives one another and jumping on a grenade and service and sacrifice. But when I think about that, I recognize that you will never have that kind of commitment unless you have the connection that breeds commitment.

And then, okay, so connection, commitment, caring, and you put accountability in there somewhere. Yeah. To me, accountability goes under caring. So for me, it's because I care about you. I will push you and I will challenge you to be your best because I love you. I won't let you settle for anything less. Like Buzz Williams is a great example of this. I've worked with Buzz for a while now and talk to Buzz quite often. And his whole thing is about love. But because he loves you and really earns the right to challenge you, he's now pushing you to go beyond what you would do on your own. And he's earned the right to do that. So they

actually let him. That's the key to his success. I've analyzed it. That's the ultimate key. And Dabo Sweeney as well. I worked with Clemson now for five years. And man, he loves his players, but he will push you and challenge you to get better. Okay. So Buzz is the men's basketball coach at Virginia Tech, right? Yeah. Yes. Okay. And then you said that the key to his success is that...

Yeah. His key to success is that his players allow him to push them because he loves them so much. Okay. Got it. Got it. allow him to push them because he loves them so much. So he really spends a lot of time on the personal relationship side of things. I mean, a lot and really, and it's not just so they'll win. It's just who he is. So how does he do that? Like how does, what have you observed and learned that he is able to, and how does he invest in the personal side? Right on the personal side, it's barbecues at his house.

I mean, just with the team, just he and his team. It's inviting guys over his house, spending time with him and his family. It's one-on-one deep and meaningful conversations. It's life coaching. They call him a life coach as much as he's a coach. So he's always investing in their personal relationships. He's also investing in their personal growth. He brings in a money manager to talk about money.

He'll also even teach them how to manage money and how to work a checkbook. So he goes through all the aspects of life and the skills they'll need for their life. And he's investing in that. He's investing in them on a, on a very deep personal level where, um, I mean, I, it's, it's hard to quantify. It's hard to explain how someone does that, but just like, you know, a dad would, you know, my dad would take the time to, to love me. Let me give you an example. I had, you know, I had a biological father who left when I was one. I was raised by my dad. I'll call him my stepfather, although I hate that term. He was a New York City police officer.

And when he first married my mom, I'll never forget. He said, you know, I'm going to treat you like my own, and I want you to call me dad. Brings tears to my eyes thinking about it because he was saying, I'm going to love you like my own, and I want you to call me dad. And I did. And he committed to me and loved me like his own throughout my life. Well, he just passed away in June. My biological father is still alive, but I never felt his love and his commitment.

I never felt that sacrifice. But my dad who raised me, I mean, he was committed. He loved me. And so when I think about those two people in my life, it's clear to me like that one was a coach and a father figure who invested in me and loved me. The other one wouldn't serve or sacrifice or go out of his way for me. So I never truly felt his love. So for me, there's no commitment back to him. It's hard to have commitment. Now we have an okay relationship and you know, but it's never, it's never been anything special. It never will be. But my dad, I mean, like it's, it's like I would do anything for him to honor his legacy. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. If you think of your dad, like a coach,

you had one coach that was connected. He was committed and he cared and held great accountability for you and made sacrifice along the way so that in return, you would do whatever, whatever. And then if your biological dad was analogous of a coach, you didn't feel connected, you didn't have the commitment, and it was hard to be accountable to his legacy or to him as a man. It sounds like what I'm hearing. Yes, very much so. And so when you have a coach that invests in you and you feel their commitment, I would say as a player, as a person, to really have that desire to commit, that desire to go above and beyond, to be your best. When you feel someone's commitment, you will be more

committed to them. Okay. So we talk about it all the time. This is not an unfamiliar word, the importance of being committed to explore potential, to get the results that you want, whatever it is, whether it's the micro tactical goal setting of getting said result, or it's something where I'm going to push onto the frontier. That commitment is really important, especially commitment during difficult times. But what you're saying is it starts with a commitment from a loved one, and then you commit back to that loved one. And that loved one is somebody that is wanting to see growth for you. So you're suggesting that it starts with the commitment of a coach or maybe even a teammate. And then over time, that commitment grows in such a way that you'll do whatever it

takes to commit back to that person. Now, what about the commitment to oneself? How do those Venn diagrams, if you will, lay over top of each other? Right. That's a great example. I think first and foremost, you must commit to yourself to be in the best version of yourself, to be in the best that you can be. Yeah, I'm glad you came to that. I'm glad you said that first because I was going to get confused about where the commitment starts. Okay, so you're saying it starts with the person. You got to commit to yourself for whatever it is. And then, you know, as you commit to yourself and, and be the best you can be, I'm convinced that part of being the best you can be is actually being a great teammate to others. You know, so for instance, I was talking to, you know, a guy in special forces. He said, we have these, you know, Navy SEALs and then we have team SEAL six, right? I know, you know, this world, you know, you're very I know you know this world. You're much

more familiar with this world than I am. And he said that the Navy SEALs have to try out to be members of Team SEAL 6. So you have the elite that's trying out to be the elite of the elite. And as they're going through their missions and simulations and so forth, they're looking for certain characteristics. So I asked him what they're looking for. He said, well, if they don't meet those characteristics, we say, hey, thank you so much. You're just not the right fit. He told me what they're looking for is not just a high performer, but someone who is performing at the highest level. But while they're performing at the highest level, they're also making the people around them better. You would call them a dominant competitor, right, or a transformational

teammate. And so to me, it's about, yes, you have to commit yourself to being your best so you can perform at the highest level for you. But it's also about when you're helping others get better, you get better in the process. When you help others improve, you improve. When you help others grow, you grow. I mean, there's a great story about Schwenator. Schwanader was recruited by John Wooden, 6'10", played at Cypress Community College. John Wooden said, hey, Schwan, I want you to come to UCLA, but if you come here, you're not going to play much because we have the best center in the world in Bill Walton. But we want you to help make Bill Walton better and practice against Bill Walton and practice. So every day, Schwanader's

battling Bill Walton in practice. Never starts a college game, but he's the only person in NBA history never to have started a college game, but be drafted in the first round of the NBA. 12-year NBA career, rookie of the year. Talk about sharpening your sword. I mean, that really is sharpening your sword. When no one's looking, there's no glory, there's no fame in it, which is just that stuff of like, I don't know. I want to say of like great women and great men are able to just really do the work. And then the reward pays out afterwards. It's like, God bless it. Like, that's amazing.

It is. And so he's like challenging Bill Walton to improve. And at the same time, he's improving, getting better. And I spoke to the Miami Heat this year before the season. And Pat Riley was there and got a chance to talk to him. And he told me a similar story when he went to be with the Lakers. Coach told him that, listen, if you don't come in the best shape of your life, you will not make this team because I need you to be a great practice player to come here and make these guys better. That was his only job,

to come in in great shape, to be a monster. What's happening right now? What's happening? Something's different. Are you sussing that out or sensing that? There is something different that's taking place right now for the new generation of athletes. When you say that, what do you mean? Is there a little more entitlement, more focus on self, less focus on team. We'll say to people like, you got to come in the greatest shape of your life. And I think it glosses over 50%. And the other 50% are like, that's right. I do. And I'm making that number up completely because there's zero analysis. This is just kind of conversational gut feel stuff. And, but the 50%, they're already at the elite. And then you say, come in the greatest shape and, and they don't, that is mind boggling

to me. Yeah. I think, um, again, I think they need to hear stories like Juan Nader. I think they need to understand that Parali showed up and every day in practice, he's challenging Jerry West and Elgin Baylor in practice. The guy's never playing in a game at the time. And those guys, he told me were mad at him because here he is every day in practice, foaming at the mouth, challenging them because he was fresh. They had played the night before.

They were exhausted. Like, Pat, chill out. But he knows if he doesn't do that, he's going to actually get cut. So his job is to make them better. Well, interestingly enough, he starts to improve. Then he gets put into the rotation on defense to shut their guys down. And then he starts playing more and more. If he doesn't do that in that moment, if he's not the guy willing to be a great practice player to make his guys better, we don't get Pat Riley, the hall of famer, the hall of fame coach. And now, you know, the, the guy who runs the Miami heat, you don't get that guy. If you don't have the guy who's willing to do whatever it takes to do the work. So I think maybe the younger people today, there's a lot of noise out there about grinding, right? Do the work and grind.

But maybe it's just a lot of words right now. Maybe we need to give them more examples. When you speak to influential performers, people that have done the hard work that are not just freaks of nature and talent. I think you and I are both attracted to not the guy that's, or the gal that's supposed to be a word record holder, but the ones that are and were not expected. And it's because they've unlocked their talent and they've pushed beyond, right? Okay. So what questions do you ask them? And that, like, I'm curious about that because I think that's going to reveal what it is that you're most interested in and the principles that you're operating from. But like, if we could just start on the simple, like, what are the questions that you tend to ask these people the most? Well, Chase Utley was, was there at the Dodgers when I spoke. Explain for some folks that don't know.

Chase Utley was a second baseman, played for years, I believe, with the Phillies. Now he's with the Dodgers. Long time, incredible baseball player. Just a guy who's had a lot of longevity, a lot of success. And he's now, again, a second baseman with the Los Angeles Dodgers. Anything you would add to that, Mike? No, no. Okay.

Yeah, he's a stud. He's a stud. Yeah, he's a stud. He's a stud. Yeah, a stud. And so I asked him, I said, you know, I said, I just talked to the team about being a craftsman instead of a carpenter, you know, really focusing on craft. I said, I gotta be honest, when I think of craftsmen, I think of you. You've had this success over the years. What's your secret? And you know what he said? He's like, you know, for me, it's really no secret. I said, you're just trying to get better every day. He said, yep. He said, every day I'm just showing up and trying to get better. I think we try to complicate things, but I think I think I think I love that statement that we try to complicate it.

And then because I was going to ask you, like, how does he do it? You know, like, and maybe you guys didn't get into it, but just showing up is I think that's I don't know, maybe 50% of the work, like you just got to show up, but then showing up with low focus, showing up with just leaving everything up to the team or everything up to the coach to show you how to get better is not going to really work in the long run. You know, like that, that level of surrender is not, is not going to do it. So did he give you any indications or if it wasn't from Chase, other folks that you've,

or themes that you've seen emerge from people? Yeah. I mean, I, well, I watched him. So I was actually watching him working on his bunts. I mean, and very intentional. It wasn't like he was just going through the motions. Another guy you see laughing and, you know, chilling out while he's doing his routine, but, but there was Chase working on his bunts. And then I was watching him in the field and very intentional in his warmups and, and just going through a fielding practice. So there was a little, like a high level intensity

while he was going through it. And so I think Bill Parcells said it best, you know, when he was talking to Curtis Martin, I saw this story on TV and he said, you know, hey kid, you got a great routine. But remember, there's a difference between a routine and a commitment to your routine. There's a difference between, you know, a routine and devotion and commitment.

And I think it's about how you go through it. Damien Lillard and I spoke after his rookie season. And again, this is nothing private, so I'm not speaking out of tune, but he wrote me a nice quote for training camp because he said he read my book twice to remind himself how hard he would have to work to make it in the NBA. He was at one level, but he knew he had to work even harder and practice more. So that meant more time at the gym. It meant being more intentional in his workout routine. I think people talk about Kobe Bryant. They think they understand that he had a great workout routine, but I think if they really

spend time with him, I had a good friend who, you know, spend time during that, during that and said, you got to see it. You got to be there to truly understand how grueling. A thousand percent. It's different. Those rare individuals focus at a more intense level and are more committed to the moment than I think most people appreciate. And it's almost intimidating. He said that. He said it's intimidating to see it but there's an intense there's a focus there's a drive and it's happening in practice i think steph curry is a great example of that now right the kind of the kind of routine he has the way he goes about it you see that and again it's a little subtle difference but if you're watching players

i would actually you know if i'm looking at draft someone, I would be willing to look and see, you know, how hard they work, how are they willing to work, what does their routine look like in terms of their commitment. But I wouldn't look at the routine because I would look at the intention behind the routine. That's where it comes from. Like where's the heart at? You know, there's got to be heart power behind it. There's got to be a heart connection to even have a group, be a great team. I say, you know, you could try to connect all you want. You can do it because the book says it or check the box. But if it doesn't come from your heart, it's not going to be real right now. There's a whole

movement in the NBA because there's a study that came out that said that the championship teams always have the most physical contact, high fives, bumps, and hugs. So I was speaking to one of the teams, and I said, all right, guys, everyone's starting to measure this now. And every coach is trying to encourage their players to have more physical contact. So now we're going to have all these teams competing to see who can high five each other more, who can give more hugs and fist bumps. But it's not the fist bumps. It's not the hugs. Those are just a byproduct of the heart connection that makes you want a fist bump, that makes you hug, that makes you have the physical contact. So we're measuring the high five, but it's not the high five. It's the connection that we should be measuring that you ultimately can't, but that's what leads to the physical contact. Yeah. And you'll see volleyball, female volleyball, women's volleyball is they,

they were onto this a long time ago. And after every play, you know, score, not score, they'd come in and hug at the center and men, men are doing the same thing now. And it, it, this pendulum swung too far at some point where they're coming in and they were hugging, but they were pissed or they're hugging and they really were just like, God, I just, you know, annoyed. So it's like the intent you're spot on that the purpose of it, you know, of the routine needs to be really clear that it's either a clearing mechanism. It's a regrouping mechanism. It's a refocusing mechanism. It's a way to recommit to people, whatever it might be a moment for a breath. It might be a moment for eye contact, like whatever those moments are

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And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's felixgray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at felixgray.com for 20% off. Okay. So you, you represent to me, um, a intelligent person in the world that is coming from the heart and really is interested in doing and sharing good

in the world. Like that's who you represent to me. And, and so I know that that's the lens. Well, I would imagine that that's the lens that you see the world through as well, like wanting good to do good, to help people grow. And there's another side, which is I've seen awful teammates, awful, the worst you can imagine. And that team wins. Yes. And I've seen teams that like they can't wait to not be around each other and they're wildly successful. So there is the other side where you don't have to love each other. You don't even have to like each other. You don't even have

to be a good human being to get great results. And that's not just in sport. That's in, you know, wall street, that's in a venture capital, that's an entrepreneurship, that's in business leadership, whatever. How do you, how do you work with that realization or that awareness that that is also a fact? I think about that all the time. It's funny that you would say that. And I'm glad you brought it up because I do try to think about the other side of the coin. Like when you look at a Kobe who is so driven, sometimes he might alienate his teammates. Or you look at Michael Jordan, who I've never met, but people talk about obviously being the best ever. Or they say Jerry Rice was driven by fear a lot of times. But what I think about guys like that is,

first, from an individual performance level, they say fear was the great motivator, but I don't buy it. I believe the motivator to be great, the motivation to compete was the true driver. It wasn't the fear. I believe ultimately, you can't be great out of fear in the long run. So I really believe that there was a love of competing that was actually greater than the fear of failing. Would you agree with that? I don't know. I'm trying to suss it out because the fear of failing, of looking bad, of whatever, all of those primary drivers, the fear of letting people down can create such an anxious state that you'll do whatever work it takes to reduce that fear. And I've seen many of the greats do exactly that, is that they feel so unsettled within that they just outwork so that they can get some temporary relief from it.

And then on the other side, which is like there's people that are truly inspired, and they want to be connected, and they want to connect, and they want to do the work because it's meaningful to them for different reasons. It's a way to honor their parents. It's a way to honor their God. It's a way to honor whatever. And it's not fear-based at all. But there's still fear. See, my lens is that it's not either or. I think it's both. For me, because I can look at my own life, right? Fear has been a powerful motivator in my life because I don't want to fail. And when I get on stage, I do not want to fail. Every time I get on stage to speak, it reminds me of playing lacrosse back at, you

know, Cornell University where I'm in front of the big crowd and I'm the face-off guy. And whether we, you know, win or lose is largely dictated often by how well I can do in the face-offs. I mean, there's a lot of other factors, but I have a big factor as the face-off guy. And so it goes back to those moments of wanting to succeed, not wanting to fail. And that was a driver my whole life. I think maybe in some ways, my biological father leave, and I've done some work on this. And I believe that people who have abandonment issues tend to want to prove them wrong. But at some point, at some point, I believe that that fear, even though it works as a stick shift, it's like a stick shift that accelerates you, must give way to a greater power of love to rise to another level. So now, for

instance, like whenever I'm giving my best talk, it's not out of fear. It's out of love. When I'm running my best work, it's out of love, not fear. So the fear, there's still fear there. So it's still part of the duality of our existence, right? We're never going to not have fear. We're going to have both, but I believe it must give way to something greater. So the love of competition kicks in and then you're in that moment of competing. So it looks like it's the fear, but I think there's a greater driver is what I'm saying. I think it's both, but I think it gives way to the greater driver. So I've thought about this a lot.

Now, teams that hate each other or don't like each other. I talked to Mo Cheeks when I was with OKC, and Mo said when he was with the Sixers and they won the championship, they would go out to dinner after the games. They'd go to a diner. He said, we didn't do it to team, Bill. We it because we liked each other and we just wanted to hang out together. And that was the best team he's ever been on was that year. Now I agree that you can have success on a team where they don't like each other, but I, I don't believe it's a sustain. It's sustaining. It's not sustaining over time, the bitterness, the jealousy, the envy, and those relationships that aren't strong will eventually crumble. So teams that are not connected, I believe, eventually crumble.

They might be strong for a year. You might have a great coach that weeds out of fear. He'll win a championship maybe for a year, but it's not going to last. And you can look throughout history to see that it doesn't last over time. Yeah. I'm nodding my head to what you're saying is that it can create that maniacal work ethic and you'll get some results, but eventually once those results are had or they don't have things start to pull apart at the seams, you know, and I, and I do think that

the, the yin and yang, uh, between, you know, straining and letting go or, um, or fear and, and, uh, love that those two do need to, there is an interplay between the two and the more that we can free ourselves from, you know, striving and straining alone, because I don't think that we love comp. I heard you say this, but I want to push back a little bit. I don't think that we love competition. I think that we, we love the way that it feels to grow and some people love the way it feels to be relieved that they, that they were enough. And then so competition becomes the mechanism for it. And so I'm not sure. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I'm not sure that like, I love everything competition stands for.

Straining and striving together to pursue and to seek our very best together. Like I absolutely love the concept, but I don't think that alone the competition is enough. I think that it's the experience of recognizing growth and that with that comes the intensity of focusing all of one's attention in the present moment. And that in and of itself is transformational. And then when you pull that out of a straining and striving, the full attention to be fully in the present moment, then you can relieve that sense of fear and experience joy and peace. And that in and of itself is completely transformational. So for me, it feels like it's a delivery mechanism to get to those two other things. And it's like we're always having to challenge ourselves. For some reasons, we want to challenge ourselves to put ourselves in those situations to grow.

There are times I'm on vacation and then someone will say, hey, can you come speak to my team and I'll go do it. And I'm like, why am I doing that? I want to relax. And yet I find myself being drawn to the challenge to go do it, probably because there's a sense of feeling in the zone when you're doing it. You're fully engaged. Like you said, you're getting a feeling from it. And it's something that we seek out, but also an opportunity to help others make a

difference. And when you do that, that feels great too. Like when I'm not helping people, I got to say, when I'm not doing the work that I do and I'm not making a difference, I actually feel a little lost. I love helping people. So I asked this question, excuse me, I asked this question to coaches and athletes all the time. And so I'd love to ask it to you. It's not an easy question. And so before I ask it, are you game? Okay. I'm ready. Yeah. So who are you without what you do? And it sounds like, oh, well, I can answer that. But really, if you really entertain that you could no longer speak publicly or you couldn't write or you couldn't make an

influence out of enthusiasm and love and wanting good for people and to do it on a wonderful large stage that you're doing it from. What happens? That's a great question. It's like that, that movie, I Heart Huckabees, where he says, who are you behind the story? Like, who I was as, you know, growing up, but even growing up, I mean, I was a competitor, always playing sports on the block. So I would still be the person who was probably looking for some challenge to compete with, but it may not be what I'm doing now, but I would still be looking to compete, to push myself to a higher level and to grow spiritually. So I thought about this often. If all this was taken away tomorrow, I would still be okay with who I am because it wasn't like this has been happening a long time for me. Yeah. I completely believe that for you is that if you lost your vocal cords and then lost your ability to formulate sentences on a

typewriter, like whatever. I don't even know how that could actually work. That you would still be in the same person, but you would just transmute into some different effort. Now underlying that, so you are a great competitor and underlying that insight, why are you competing so hard? Right. Um, cause you're on a spiritual journey, probably more than you are financial or whatever, like, right. Like you're on a spiritual journey. So what, what is that about for you? Right. Um, well, it's not as much competition now. It's not like I'm competing against anyone else. Cause I like to look at other people like a Ken Blanchard or a Pat Lencioni, five distinctions of a team. See who I am talking about. It's a great book. I love Pat. And I've

learned so much from Pat. He's five years older than me. And he's someone I say, okay, doing amazing work. So I don't compete against guys like that. I think I'm competing in a sense, committing to trying to be the best that I can be. See, I believe we strive for greatness. I wrote an article the other day, The Four Stages of Greatness. I believe we strive for greatness because we were never meant to be average. It's in our DNA. We ultimately, if you ask people if they want to be great or do great things, everyone says yes. No one ever says, at least I haven't found anyone who says, yeah, I want to be mediocre.

Now, whether we take actions to do those things are different. But we all have this desire in our heart and our soul. I think God planted it in our soul to strive for greatness because that's what being human is about. It's about elevating. It's about innovating. You have a car, and then another company wants to come along and then create Tesla. And there's this drive to succeed. We get to the moon, and now we're looking for Mars.

As a musician, a musician creates a hit song. What do they want to do? They want to create another hit song. Unless you're Vanilla Ice, then you're okay with the one song. I'm kidding, of course. But there's this drive to always push the envelope. We see how movies have evolved. We see how athletes have evolved. What is this about, Mike? Why is that? And I'm convinced that there's just part of a human desire to continue to push the envelope, to push the boundaries, to grow. So I would say I'm doing it because that's who I am. And it's also because it's in my soul. And I think that's why you're interested in always pushing the envelope. And so is just about every other person striving for greatness. And then I wonder, this is something that I don't know if you've unlocked in any way,

but I always wonder this concept of potential is that it becomes problematic in one way because it's a definition. Like, what is it? What is a man or woman's potential? And how do you really suss that thing out? Because it's a very much a moving ceiling. So there's a, there's a challenge with the word potential. And if we're straining and striving and competing and working to get on the edge and, you know,

literally working as hard as we can to grow, what, what are we growing towards to be more still and more joyful and peaceful, which is available right fr freaking now. I don't need to do any. Now I need to work to train my mind to be here more often, which is the duality and the complication between being and becoming, which is a whole different conversation. Yes. Right. So the becoming part is the competitive part. The being part is available right now.

But if you haven't trained your mind, it's hard to be here now and hard to be here now over and over and over again. So then when we talk about potential, we lay that layer on it. What is it that you feel like we are working so hard toward? You say greatness, right? But how do you think about greatness as it relates to potential? You are really challenging me to go another level with this thinking. So I appreciate it. And I don't expect you, John, to know the answers. This is just two guys trying to sort out something.

And I know that we think a lot of the same things. So yeah, I don't expect you to have an answer by any means. But I know you have a thought about it. Yeah, I love it. Because here's the deal. If we are just in the being state all the time, and we're just meditating, and we're praying like a monk, and there are people that do that. But if we would just do that day in and day out by ourselves and just sitting there and meditating and praying,

then we really wouldn't interact with others. We wouldn't go and try to feed the homeless and serve. Okay. So that to me feels like a beginner's being not, not a problem in it. And I don't even like the word beginner, but it's like, that's a beginning stage, which is I need to just be in a quiet room or on the mountaintop by myself to get clarity, to get connected, to be. And then, but eventually as we train our minds, then we can be while we're eating. We can be while we're talking. We can be while we're working. We can be, you know, in rugged environments. And so that's how I see it extending out from that source of, from a progressive training

source. And that's where I was good. That's where I was going to go with is that I don't see us being made for that. See, we were made for others. We were made to be in relationship with each other, to be there for each other, to serve each other, to connect. So if it was just about you and your own enlightenment, well, then you would just sit there all day. But I truly believe that life is about relationships and about being with others and going through the state, like you said, where you're at this maybe higher level of consciousness as you're going through life. But you're looking for ways to serve and to help others and be there for one another. And that goes to – we could talk about it a little later, but team grit. Like I've been thinking about team grit versus individual grit. And you only have team grit if you have

this connection and relationships. So as you become a person of a higher state of mind, you're able to not only walk your walk, but help others with their walk. And then we go through our dark times ourselves so that we can be their walk. And then we go through our dark times ourselves so that we can be a light for others. We go through our challenges. Because again, if you go through a challenge on your own, and it's just something you experience for yourself, but it doesn't become a lesson or a blessing for others, I believe it's wasted. It's almost like we go through the challenge, That's the journey of life to then become someone who can help others on their path. So to me, that's what it's all about. It's not about just being for yourself. It's about that higher level of knowing you're made for

others and being there for others. And is that coming from you from a more of a biological position or more of a spiritual theological position? Well, this is something I've always felt even before I was on my walk spiritually. So this is something I've always felt inwardly. But if you just watch the way people interact and you watch when people are going through tough times and how people come out of the woodwork to lend a hand, you just see that. And Terry Walsh Jennings said to me the other day, she said that greatness is never achieved in isolation. So I think at the core level, we know that we're always seeking opportunity to be with

others. I mean, let's face it, we can watch movies on demand, but we still go to the movies. We still want to go to concerts and experience it with other people. We still love being part of a team. I was thinking about why coaches love coaching. Why do coaches love it? Because they are addicted to coaching. So many of them, so many of them you know and I know, they love it. It hit me because it fulfills all the requirements of focusing on a task, strategy. You have to improve. There's some competition there as well. But yet you get to make people better.

You get to make the players better. There's a lot of developing of others. There's a lot of relationship building. So I think when you can look at the microcosm of what a coach does, I think that actually goes to what makes a human being fully engaged. Yeah. And teachers. Yeah. Oh, and I'd say, yeah, I'd say coach, teachers, you know, because, you know, why do they love to coach so much? And then when they're done, it's hard because now you've got to engage life where every day you knew what you were doing. When you showed up, you go into the building, I'm working on the game plan. I'm watching film. I'm coaching this player. If you're a teacher,

I'm working on my lesson plan. I'm going to engage with my students. There's this great satisfaction of knowing that you're making a difference. And I think that's why so many teachers and coaches love to do it. It's why people actually coach when they're not getting paid. How many volunteer coaches are out there? There's so many and they do it because it's intoxicating and it's engaging and it allows you to really get away from life and really just do something you love. You know, it's cool is that my son is eight years old, so he's just playing some basketball with his friends and doesn't really love basketball, but he came home the

other day and he says, I think my wife asked something about like, how's it going for you? And he said, you know, you guys talk to me often about like, what is my thing? And we're going to find that one day. And he says, I'm pretty sure it's not basketball. So like, he's just out there because he loves his friends and he wants to play with his friends and whatever. It's fun. But it's not like the thing. Okay. And he hasn't found his body yet. What I mean is he's still developing and he's still figuring out how to move like an athlete, which by the way, is not important to me at all. I know that, you know, some people might think that and not at all. And so I, there was a moment where he grabbed, he grabbed a rebound and he shot the ball back up and it was close, but it didn't go in. And I looked, oh, and he doesn't get many of those opportunities. And I looked over at the two coaches and they both were like in, and these are both volunteer coaches. They're his friends, dad's and I'm on the sidelines. I'm just watching.

And I look over and they both kind of got into like a three-quarter stance out of their seat because they were like, here's the moment. And the ball didn't go in for my son. And they looked at each other and they just had this little moment, the two coaches now, and they had this little moment and one slaps the other on the back, like, gosh, we're getting so close with them. But that's what you just described to me, right? Is that, you know, it's to see somebody else grow and to have fun and joy and the excitement of taking a risk to whatever, whatever. And then the two coaches were bonding and they're like, God, and you could tell that that's why they're in it. So I think you're really onto something really, really special. It's powerful.

And you see the coaches that are doing it for the right reasons. But it's such a fine line, right? Because the minute we get caught up in the results, the minute we get caught up in the pressure of the outside world and the expectations, we lose that inward joy and that passion of what it's really all about. That's the hard part. Yet it's such a fine line. I find it as

coaches will say, yeah, I just got caught up in the moment. Parents, we do as well. I know I do. Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know what? That's a really important phrase. I got caught up in the moment. I know it's a colloquial saying. I've heard it all my life as well, but it's just striking me when you say that right now. What does that mean to you? What it means to me is in that moment, that coach or myself, we're looking outside, not inside. Fear in that moment has settled in and fear of not performing, of not succeeding, of what the world thinks, of the expectation. Okay. Yeah. You know what?

That statement's wrong. If you get caught up in a moment, that means like the moment swept you up. Right. Okay. So that would mean that like a raindrop, you, you,

you got sucked into the center of the raindrop and then you're following you're inside the raindrop all the way till it reaches the, reaches the ground. And then that moment, that raindrop is disrupted. So getting caught up in a moment is like a beautiful thing. It's the accident that I'm trying to create more often in my life is to get caught in the moment, you know, because I can't will myself into it.

I can prepare my mind to be there more often. But God, you know, I'm glad you said that moment in juxt to this conversation, because I think that statement is fundamentally wrong. I love that. But even, even when you're in the moment and caught up in the moment, right? I'm sure you've experienced something happened, an outside trigger that caused you to disrupt that moment to be outside that moment. Has that ever happened to you? Oh yeah. No, there's lots of more reasons that I get pulled out than I get pulled in. But being caught in a moment is something I love. And I hear people talk like saying that phrase,

I got caught up in the moment. I think a better way of saying that is like, I missed the moment. Yes. Yes. I was distracted by so many other things that I couldn't get swept in the moment. Or I allowed something outside of me to ruin the moment that I was experiencing inside me. Yes, thank you. Okay, good. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep.

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that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. John, connected, committed, and caring. Was there another C that we started off this conversation with? Well, there's communication that helps create connection.

So if you don't have great communication, then it's hard to have great connection. So most relationships break down because of poor communication and a lack of connection. And so one of the things that we can do, whether it's our marriage or whether it's a team or a coer is to enhance our communication to start to build the connection that we need. The way I look at it is like communication could often be surface level. So if you have communication though, that helps lead to connection, that's where the power is. And then connection is where that bond that you're working on or that relationship you're building through communication, connection is where that bond is earned, where it grows deeper and more powerful. Do you have one or two activities that people could do to increase

one or all four of those core concepts that you're talking about? I'm glad you asked because yes. I mean, one of my favorites is the safe seat. Dabo Sweeney, two years ago with the team, he got a fishing stool from a friend of his, brought it back from a remote fishing village. Explain who Dabo is. Dabo Sweeney is the head coach of Clemson University football. They had just won the national championship this past year. They went to the national championship last year against Alabama and lost, and then came back again this year and won it. So Dabo had a friend who brought this fishing stool to him. And it was the kind of stool that guys will sit around a circle at the fishing village and talk about life and family and relationships and you name it, and fishing, of course. And Dabo had an idea. He put

the stool in the middle of the team meeting room and every day a different guy would sit on the stool and Dabo would ask that person questions. It was called a safe seat because it was a safe place to share, a safe place to be vulnerable. And whatever was shared was not to leave the room. And different guys got up there and- And this is in front of 100 other- Yeah, another 100 teammates. And Dabo asked them questions about his life. Who's one of your heroes? Tell us about a hardship you faced.

Tell us about one of your highlights. My favorite is this. Tell us about one of your defining moments in your life. When you know someone's defining moment, you get to know them a whole lot better and you know more of their story. Well, as each guy, so one guy would sit, so one guy would sit in that chair after practice every day. And the team then got to ask some questions and a lot of things came out. Some

guys were brought to tears, but what happens is, what happens is, and I've seen this happen over and over again, cause I've done, I've done this with a number of teams, is the vulnerability and the authenticity paves the way for meaningful relationships and strong connections. So the ego and the pride and the selfishness, the walls just come crumbling down. And then this vulnerability starts to pave the way for these human connections that, that I haven't found any way else to, to get to. So it's like, even when I'm on, you know, your podcast, we talk and what you're so great at asking questions, I start to share and it becomes this deeper bond. You can't do it. Like you can't do it by trying to, you know, like let's, let's go out in the wilderness and just try to survive together or let's go in the water. There's a lot of great programs that they do like that, and that helps create team bonding.

But there's nothing more powerful to the human connection than being vulnerable and sharing, and it's amazing what happens. So that team really became closer and more connected in doing that kind of exercises. I worked with an executive team of a corporation and had connected in doing that kind of exercises. I worked with an executive team of a corporation and had an executive team do this. And real awkward at first. It's always a little awkward because it's tough to share. But once the exercise got going, man, it was powerful. And how long would the person be in the chair for? Not long. I mean, five minutes. I did it with a college golf team the other day. And again, it's funny cause I wrote about it and I've had coaches do it,

but I've never let it myself. So with this college golf team, I did it and wow, get an email from the coach a week later. I've never seen us more connected and more committed to each other. I've never had a locker room like this ever. And it's all because of what we did just with that one exercise. It's amazing. And Coach Dabos would do this once a week? Dabo would do it after every practice. So after every practice during training camp, they would do this. I had Hank Jancic, the coach of Gettysburg, one of the top coaches in division three. He did it every day as well. He just did the defining moment and just saw how powerful it was as each person shared their story and their challenges.

And then what about the contrarians in the room? What about the people like, oh my God, are you, are we really doing this? Oh my god, this is so lame. What happens to that personality type or that lens? Well, I thought a lot about this at the professional level. It's a little harder at the professional level because you have guys who have contracts, guys who are wanting new contracts. They don't want to share that they have a challenge. They don't want to be vulnerable.

You know, and in those cases, yes, you can not do it, but you won't be as close as you can be. You won't be as connected as you can be. You cannot do it, but it's a tool that you can do it to be more connected than you already are. But to the contrains, I would say, you know what? You're going to spend time with each other. You are going to be on a bus. You are going to be on planes. You are going to be together as a team working day in and day out in an office. And if you don't really know each other, then what kind of existence is that? People say you shouldn't get personal in business. This doesn't mean you dump all your problems and know everybody's personal history, but it is helpful to know that person a little bit better. It is helpful to get an idea of who that person is and what their story is. And when you know them, guess what? The more connected you are to them, and when you know them and you know their story, you want to be there for them. You

want to fight for them. You want to help that person. And when they're dealing with a challenge, you're actually more supportive. So again, the Contrayans can say, I don't buy it, but those are the same people that say that love is a waste of time and has no place in business and sports. And all I heard Dabo Sweeney say after national championship was we loved each other. And I told the guys all year that love was going to be the difference in this team. Brilliant. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. When you, um, when we first started, I think it was before the microphones kicked on, you said that you might have some questions for

me. I don't know if, if, if you have any more, but, um, I but I do. Well, I do because, you know, this is something I'm always studying. I don't have all the answers. I'm working through it like anyone. I'm seeing what works. I'm seeing why some teams succeed, why teams don't. You know, when you get to work with a lot of college and sports teams and you go and you speak, you're not with them all the time, but you talk with the coaches enough that you get a feel for what's going on. Here's one thing I do know, and then I want to ask you about this, but I know that it's never the talk. I know it's never the book they read. I always know it's not the motivational speech, right? It's always the leader and it's always the team. And it's always how the leader in that team interacts that year and the relationships that happen and close, and he really worked on building a connected team.

Dave Roberts is the manager of the Los Angeles Dodgers, and he was named NL manager of the year last year. Well, they lost Clayton Kershaw. They had the most injuries ever in a single season and most times on the DL. They had a lot of setbacks. They were below 500, but they stayed together. They stayed connected. And, you know, again, I follow this as I'm talking with Dave and following them along this path. And then you see that, you know, it's his leadership. It's how the team stayed connected. And that was the difference. Now they couldn't, they didn't beat the Cubs because I think the Cubs were connected. Also, I think the Cubs were just a team of destiny. I told, I told Dave, no matter what, you can't be God. Like God wanted the Cubs to win. That was just, you couldn't do that. But you know, sometimes that year, it just seems like, like the Patriots, it just seemed like they were meant to win this year. I don't know why, but it just seems that

way, but you can always do your best every year to come together. So I guess my, my question for you in terms of, you know, you work with a lot of teams. I know you can't really talk about specifically the teams you work with, but just from your observation on this, what are some ways that you've seen connection lead to commitment? And am I on track? Am I on the right track with connection and commitment? And what do we do with the contrarian guys who don't buy in? And I was actually going to ask you about the other side of the coin where teams that have a lot of dysfunction and yet they still seem to win that year. How does that work? Yeah. I think you're right on the money with connection and commitment. I think that that's right on the money. And helping people be more connected is a pursuit that is larger than the tactics of sport. So for sure, I think you're on the money there. The second part of the question – The contrarians and the teams that don't have great relationships like you said, but yet they still win. What's happening there when they still win?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the dynamic? Well, you know, talent is, you know, I don't know. Talent does a lot. And when there's a freak on a team, and even if that freak is polarizing and whatever, but they show up on game day and it's a funny little thing that takes place. It's like Lord of the Flies. And everybody knows who has the power. And they look over at that person

during crunch time and they're like, okay, well, he's going to get it through it or he's going to get us through it or she's going to get us through it. It's like when people are freak talents and then the unit is not getting what they want, they know that that freak talent has the potential of being able just to put the game, literally the game on their back and going for the win and people default. Oftentimes people default to that. And so is it a submissiveness? I don't know. I think it's almost maybe, but it's an acknowledgement that that person has the capacity to change the outcome. And so the outcome really does matter. And so I'm going to just submit to maybe my ethos, my character, my need to feel connected to get this immediate win right now, because that thing, you know, in the real world, that, that thing does matter. If I don't make the deadline, or if I don't make

the budget number, if I don't make the wins, and my contracts on the line, and my family's, you know, well-being is on the line, or my ego is on the line, whatever is the strongest driver, that it becomes problematic. It's like this really interesting crisis for people. Would you agree that – I often say team beats talent when talent isn't a team. You have to have talent at a certain level. But we've seen so many teams with talent that aren't connected. And then you see a team that is connected, maybe not as much talent, but they, they win. Would you agree with that sentiment that team beats talent when talent isn't a team? Yeah. I think that in, when,

if you look at the extremes, yes, you know, yeah. And, but talent, there's something really potent about talent. And so if you had two really talented people that work together, but don't like each other, and it's a team of five or even 11 on the, on the, on the field, they're probably going to win more often than we would anticipate. Like even if they don't like each other, but they agree that while they're going to practice and while they're going to be on the, on, on the fields or hardwood or whatever, that they're going to work together, that stuff takes over. So I think like in the most beautiful sense, it's team and talent is what we're looking for. And talent alone, uh, meaning if there's only one person that's talented, it's tough, but if there's two that's talented and they just agree

to work hard, but don't have to like each other, then that there's something there that is, I think really more common, but less beautiful. And so I don't know, I think I'm still sussing it out, you know, for sure. But in an ideal world, we'd find the people that could jump out of the gym, run the fastest you can imagine and want to be great human beings. Like that's what we're looking for. Right, right. And I do love, I love when you said about talent because, you know, guys will push back, John, you're talking about this love, you're talking about, you know, relationships, but I always say, no, you do have to have talent, right? You do have to have people that could perform at a higher level because if you just have great relationships and a lot of love, but there's no talent, no talent then you know you're going to be a very very joyful team maybe but not a very successful

team or team that wins right yeah yeah yeah that's i think that so there's something there like and especially in the pros you know it's much more magnified at that level yep i um i actually coached a girls basketball team my daughter was on and we played against Christian Leitner's team that he was coaching. His daughter was on a team and we dominated. But it wasn't my coaching. It was Sydney Searcy, who's now at Florida. And we had Sydney and she was talented and she just took over the game every play. And so that's why we won.

So yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because what my frame of reference is, um, with the pros and I am not talking about kids at the kid level, there should be nothing but fun. And I know that, um, many of my friends or my son's parents and whatever in the communities around where I live at eight, nine, 10, it's about winning and it's wrong. It's fundamental. It's wrong. It's just, I mean, I can't be more clear about it. Get them moving, get them reaching in every direction, get them straining and striving, get them laughing, get them, get them to feel all their emotions that they possibly can and being committed to themselves and others in the process. Like it's a fantastic experience literally for the fundamentals.

And it's not until like age 16 that we're starting to train them on how to compete. And it's like, you got to train to move fundamentals, train to move, train to compete. And then eventually, you know, we go on to train to win, but that takes time. Yeah. I'm going to write more on that, Mike, because, you know, there were things that I failed as a parent on where I was about the competition. And I, this new book that I have coming out, The Power of Positive Leadership, I actually talk about how my daughter almost quit lacrosse because I almost ruined it for her. But thankfully, I read a book by Joe Ehrman about inside out coaching, about being a transformational coach, but I took it as being a transformational

parent. And at that time, I, you know, ninth grade, my daughter was in ninth grade at that point. I started to just encourage her and be there for her rather than push her. And that made all the difference. It really did. But I wish I can go back and do the younger years again, because, you know, I should have just been there for her all the time, loved her, not pushed her like I did. You know, again, it's a regret I have in life. I'm glad I learned the lesson, but I'm glad you said that because I want people to not do it the wrong way and not make the mistake I made

in that regard. Yeah, no, no, for sure. That pain is real. And that's one of the things about the past is you can't go back and redo it, but you can learn. But oftentimes that pain is still commingled there until there's full healing and sometimes doing things differently in the future as part of that healing, if we're lucky enough to do it. But, you know, that being said, the model to work from, I think it's a great model, long-term athletic development as a model. And literally it was, um, you know, some global research that took a look at the, the six stages for development from fundamental movement skills all the way up to high performance.

And so it's, you know, just get them moving, then fundamentals, then learning to train. And that's for boys, that's ages 9 to 12. Just getting them learning to train. And then training to train. So that's sports performance movement is for young men from 12 to 16. And then training to compete. And then training to compete, and then training to win post age 19. 19 and above is really about winning. Wow. Where can I find this that you just said those stages? Long-term athletic development. Great model. Okay. One final question I have for

you in terms of something I'm really fascinated with is team grit. I brought it up earlier. We know that individual grit, I know you've interviewed Angela Duckworth and all the research on the number one predictor and factor of success is grit. So the ability to work hard for a long period of time towards a goal and to persevere, to overcome, to keep moving forward in the face of adversity, failure, rejection, and obstacles. But I've been thinking about team grit, like what makes a team gritty? And I would just love your thoughts on what you've experienced and what you believe drives team grit.

Well, if grit has three components, passion, perseverance for long-term goals, team grit would be the commitment, the shared commitment for the long-term goal and to make sure that we teach the capabilities to be resilient. And so that's the perseverance part. So perseverance just means staying with it. And how do you stay with it? Well, it's easy to stay with it when it's easy, but then when it's difficult, that's what perseverance is really about. And so teaching the skills of resiliency is relatively mechanical. And it means as an organization to look toward challenges. So to look towards, not to look at

them as threats, but look at opportunities ahead of us as great challenges to develop the skills, the inner skills that we need to be great as men and women. So that's the resilience piece. And then the passion piece is making sure that the team is connected to, I know you love that word, but connected to each other. So there's an inner fire and then also connected to making sure that that inner fire is sustainable. So that's the connection to recovery. So I'd have a world-class recovery program, a world-class training of resiliency, and then making sure that the long-term vision is shared and equally bought into. And that's how you would train grit as a team. I love that. Two things come to mind on that. When I was with the Dodgers and Dave Roberts said I could share this, it's actually in a new book, but when I'm in his office a day before they clinched the postseason last year,

one of his players walked in and he went over to him and gave him a big hug. And it was like a five-second hug that a dad would give his long-lost son. And then they talked for a little while and the player left. And I said, Dave, what's up with that? That's just awesome. I love that you just did that. He comes in each day and I give him a hug. And he's like a member of my family. I hug him and we talk about

life and it's just, you know, part of our relationship. And I watched him do that with, you know, a lot of different players, not the hug piece, but just, you know, connection. Well, that same player, several weeks later, I watched hit two big home runs to propel them to the next series. And I thought that is just incredible in terms of, you know, being a connected team. It starts at the top, but just watching that connection, it was like, I knew that I was, when I was in that moment watching it and then watching it from my house on the couch, I knew that I was being presented with both of these to be able to share this with coaches and people to talk about the importance of connection. So that was one thing that just came to mind when I saw that. And then the other was, and I'd love your thoughts on that, but the

other one was working with a basketball team in college. They had grit written on the walls. It was their word that they were focusing on. But then I asked them in part of my talk with them, how connected are you as a team? Just on part of my talk with them, how connected are you as a team? Just on a scale of one to 10, how connected do you think you are? And it's a really cool exercise to ask because, I mean, it's hard to quantify, but you just get a good sense. And they were like two, four, six. And so here they were talking about grit, but they didn't have the connection that really drove grit and they did underperform. Again, I'm not from a science that can't prove that that one led to the other,

but I have a good sense that their connection ultimately didn't lead to the, they didn't have the connection that led to the commitment that would ultimately drive grit. So they lost a lot of close games. They just seemed to not be as together as they needed to be. And I sensed it when I was there as well. And I had an honest conversation with them about and talked about it with them. And so, again, I think these are great learning experiences and learning opportunities for teams as they go forward and the importance of connection that drives team grit. What are your thoughts on that? I get it's not a perfect science, but of what I just shared. Oh, right on the money. And remember that many people think that grit is doing difficult work and being tough. And that's not it alone. It's not enough. And so yeah, connection with yourself first is really important. And it's hard to be connected with other people consistently if you're not connected to yourself. And that's why we got to do the lonely work. I love that. I love that. You have to be connected with other people consistently if you're not connected to yourself. And that's why we got to do the lonely work. I love that. I love that. You have to be connected with yourself first to be able to connect with others. Wow. Love that. John, epic. I loved, I love connecting

with you. Thank you for everything that you do and the way that you bring such fire into my life. And so it's fantastic to know you. Thanks, Mike. It was awesome being with you and just love our conversations. Really appreciate you having me on again. For sure. Now, where can people follow you and get your new book? And where are you in social media? Sure. Just John Gordon 11, J-O-N Gordon 11. And the new book is The Power of Positive Leadership. And all my books can be found at johngordon.com j-o-n-gordon.com we just link to amazon and the other bookstores my son and i read the energy bus the kids version of the energy bus all the time oh that means so much that's uh i really appreciate that that's all it just made

my day yeah thank you we love it yeah we love reading it together and uh so with that thank you thank you thank you for just being a good spirit in the world and a friend and And for those still listening, thank you for being part of the community, the Finding Mastery community. It's beautiful to see how you guys are supporting and challenging each other on findingmastery.net forward slash community. And John, thanks for being part of that as well. It's really fun to see you in there. Thanks, Mike. Yeah, I love what you're doing. The work you're doing is just important.

It's just fun to – I listen to all the podcasts. So it's all the different people you have on. What a great growth opportunity. George Ravlin said to me the other day, and he's been on your podcast. George is, as you know, a very wise man. He said, we now have a library in our phone. To not learn is just no excuse. You have the ability to learn.

And to have this kind of podcast and this kind of information available to you. Like people ask me, what do I listen to? This is one of the top three that I listened to because it always allows me to learn and grow. So just keep up the amazing work. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I'll see you on social at Michael Gervais for Twitter and then at Finding Mastery on Instagram. John, let's do it again. Okay. Another year. Okay. See you brother. Take care. Okay. Another year. Okay. See you, brother. Take care. Okay. Bye. Thanks, Mike. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

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