Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Author Robert Rabbin on Fighting Cancer, Curiosity, Authenticity

Episode Date: October 4, 2017

In January 2012, Robert Rabbin was diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer and told he had a few months to live. However, in keeping with his contrarian nature, he took a non-conventional path.Robert began his professional journey in 1985, after spending 10 years living and working with meditation master Swami Muktananda in India.Long before then he was on a pursuit – a pursuit to understand the “why”.The questioning and the wondering, has been the signature characteristic of his life.Who am I? What is my purpose? What is real?At 11 years of age Robert asked himself those 3 questions and has been on a relentless journey to answer them ever since.The spirit of inquiry, wondering, and curiosity has allowed him to go deeper and further than most people – deeper than those that accept a preexisting condition of knowledge.In this conversation we take a deep dive into mindfulness and the meaning of a “thought stream.”We discuss why words and language can be insufficient when it comes to truly understanding what is transpiring as an experience of being "here now."Robert shares how listening deeply without projection, allowing space to be playful, and removing ego are all at the center of what has made him successful.Robert has developed an international reputation as a brilliant speaker and public speaking guru, as well as a distinguished self-awareness facilitator and leadership advisor.He's an author: Two of his books that I've appreciated are: The 5 Principles of Authentic Living, and Speak Truthfully.I hope this conversation drives you to think just a bit deeper and get curious about who you really are. _________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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through those periods so that they can explore the deeper meanings in life, but at the same time, explore high performance. And we want to understand at the same time, how they've cultivated particular mindset skills to deal with challenges and strategies and to be able to pivot and adjust in difficult scenarios. And that's really what the mental skills are about is it's easy to be calm and confident and focused and optimistic in calm settings or easily focused settings. It's a totally different ball game when we're about to be punched in the mouth or kicked in the stomach, or we feel like there's something that's looming around the corner, or we've gotten really bad information. That's a totally different inner experience to be able to eloquently be you or for me to be me in those scenarios, let alone be able to pursue and perform at a high level.

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I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Okay, for this week's conversation, it's with Robert Rabin. Some of you know his work and some of you haven't met him yet. And the reason maybe you haven't met him is because he's deep in the insights and traditions of mindfulness. And he's got a very unique story. So in 2012, Robert was diagnosed with stage four lung cancer, and he was told that he had just a few months to live, that that in and of itself is radical. Any of you that have faced cancer who understand

terminal illness from a family perspective, and whether that person has lived or, you know, you lost them, you know exactly what that sense is like. For those of us that haven't had that experience, it's wild to believe, not to believe, but to think that another human tells you you only have a few months to live. Now, obviously he's alive to tell the story. So this conversation is about how, because he is a contrarian and in his contrarian nature, he took a very non-conventional path to facing down this diagnosis. So Robert began his journey, his real journey in 1985 after spending 10 years living and working with meditation master Swami Mukundanda in India. And I hope I pronounced that right.

And long before that, he was on a pursuit to understand why, like, what is the why underneath how things work? And that questioning and the wondering, that's really been his signature characteristic of his life. And the key questions that he talks about in this podcast is answering the question, who am I? It's a big question. What is my purpose? Another really deep question that is not going to come from a 15 minute journaling session or even a 15 day journaling session. And he also wants to explore what is real? What is the true nature of things? And he talks about like this all happened for him, this curiosity at age 11. And so he's been on this path from a long time thinking about deep, deep things. So you'll notice the texture and the nuances in the way that he both laugh and are curious about how hard it is to really articulate what is true for somebody. And that's a really important thing to honor is that it is nearly

impossible to know, to truly know another person's inner experience. And that is our unique responsibility in life is to better understand ourselves and to try to be able to express authentically across multiple types of conditions ranging from hostile and rugged to more calm and quiet and intimate and that for me that's one of the most powerful reasons that we go on this journey of self-discovery to be able to master self through mastery of craft. And so the spirit and inquiry and curiosity that he's developed, it's allowed him to go deep and far. And may I say, probably deeper and farther than most people. And in this conversation, we take a deep dive into his experience of mindfulness and what a thought stream is and how to articulate that. And we get

into the conversation, discuss why words and language are insufficient when it comes to really understanding what it's like to be fully present in the here and now. Okay. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Robert. He's got a handful of books that he's written. Two of them that I've enjoyed is The Five Principles of Authentic Living. And the second book I've appreciated is Speak Truthfully. And I hope this conversation drives you to think just a bit deeper and become a bit more curious about who you really are, not who others want you to be, not what's popular, not what your mom or dad or coworkers or coach or teammate want you to be, but who you really are. And it is, for me, it's really clear. The world needs you in just that way. Really need you,

your family, your people, your spheres of influence need you to be exactly that, your authentic self. All right. Very cool. So let's jump right into this conversation with Robert. Robert, how are you doing? Good, Mike. Thanks. Yeah. You are intense, aren't you? Intense? No. Come on. With the people you work with? I'm like a puppy. Come on. Okay. So here is what has been fascinating to okay about you and your life efforts is that you were told that you had terminal cancer five years ago yes and just that information alone is life-changing and you were told that it was how many weeks were you going to said to live the prognosis was about six months with nothing that they could do okay when you got that information what happened I redid my to-do list.

You know, I thought, well, just in case they're right, I better, I had just come out with a book called the five principles of authentic living and was excited to begin promoting that. And I thought, well, maybe I won't get around to that. No, really. Wait, are you laughing because it is looking back? It's funny, but it's only five years ago. But are you laughing because that's how you do life? Well, if you understand laughing as being playful yet sincere, not glib,

then I would say, yes, I like to laugh in life, by which I mean I'm playful and sincere. They don't cancel each other out. Yeah, you know, okay. So this is why I want, I love sitting down with you. I love having conversations with you. And let's start, if you will, from the beginning. And the beginning meaning how you've come to have insight. And I's start, if you will, from the beginning. And the beginning, meaning how you've come to have insight. And I don't say that lightly. That's a statement reserved in my mind for...

Okay. Thank you. Yeah. So how have you come to have insight? Well, without replaying the last 66 years, which it's really taken all of those years. I suppose there's been a few signature moments. I mean, I was born in 1950 in New York and so on. Okay. The first word that anyone ever heard me say as a toddler was my mother hearing me say why she told me that and i think if we're going to start at the beginning without getting stuck in the in the past the why the questioning the wondering has been maybe the signature characteristic of my life. And when that spirit of inquiry and curiosity and wondering is alive and present every moment, you're going to end up going deeper and further than most people

who are more conditioned to learn and remember and use a pre-existing body of knowledge, let's say, right? We're going to learn this, whether it's through education or social conditioning. And once most people and please forgive the generalization, but once most people learn something, especially if it seems to be right and true and certain, we lose the spirit of inquiry. So a lot of people, for example, will pursue truth with a capital T, and thus we have various religions. I've pursued truth also most of my life, but with a lowercase t. It's not absolute and it's not certain. It's the truest account of who I am and what I know and what I'm experiencing now. And in five minutes, that truth, because I'm alive and curious and awake and alert, is going to be different. Right? right so to say that i have insight how did i get to a place where you might say i've got some insights it started with that and that spirit of inquiry and the pursuit of questions without settling for any answers, right?

So one of the competencies that I feel I have is the ability to ask questions without jumping in after my question to provide an answer and without necessarily accepting the answer of another as anything other than temporary. Okay. So when you ask a question, you pay attention to the response. And then I've got two questions. Sure. The first question was why a curiosity without accepting with a capital T, not looking for a capital T or accepting truth to be absolute from another person. Correct. So you're on this journey, this insatiable curiosity to understand.

Correct. Truth and what's good and beautiful, which is one of the definitions that I've heard explained to me about what God is. Okay. All things that are true, beautiful and good. Oh, nice. Yeah. Isn't that nice?

So, okay. Um, genetic predisposition for that? Or, like, if that's your first question, you're begging that it was kind of a, you were bait in some way, to be curious. So environmental or genetic coding? So you've given me environmental or genetics. You've given me two choices. But I favor a proverb that says whenever we're faced with two choices, always pick the third. Yeah, I love it. There's an interaction model as well.

It's not genetic. My parents weren't like that. I have four siblings, one of whom you know. They're not exactly like that. So it wasn't genetic. It wasn't environmental, except to say at 11 years of age, this is now environmental. We were living in Italy where we had moved. We went skiing.

I broke my leg. And for the next month, I was in bed. Were you an adventure taker or a risk taker at that point? Or were conservatives? Well, I was 11. But without claiming to be a risk taker or an adventurer, I think it has to do with that I loved and somehow was built for a life that was propelled by, I'll use the word voracious, knowing what it means, hunger for deeper and deeper awareness of the questions that came to me when I was in bed at 11 years of age with a broken leg, which were, and now I'm going to say the great cliche of our time, but it's true. Who am I? What is my purpose? What is real? Those three questions. Who am I?

Those three questions in a kind of epiphany at 11 years of age on my bed in in in italy because at that time you you were put in a cast from ankle to hip this is not 1961 right i mean now you've got professional athletes that you know come back three days later because of science. But so I spent a month in bed. My siblings were off to school. My parents were gone. What did I do?

I went through the Encyclopedia Britannica that we had page after page after page, not reading everything, but, you know, just immersing myself in that in that world. So you had a Britannica encyclopedia? We had an encyclopedia. Yeah. You know, so I took it to bed and every day i would page after page after page and i remember being particularly drawn to and reading things about the universe and the cosmos and you know the minutiae of the body the hundred trillion cells of the body, each cell having its own intelligence and purpose, and the hundred billion galaxies. So it was that same curiosity going in and going out. And then one day, through the window in my bedroom, I remembered just a light, a visible

light poured in, completely enveloped me, and for a quick moment I disappeared. Now, I'm putting these words to it in retrospect. It did happen, but at the time I don't remember what I actually thought other than, oh my goodness, I'm disappearing into light. But in that encounter, the opening, the awakening, the epiphany, whatever you'd like to say about it, that's when those questions consciously arose and embedded themselves in me and became the driver for the rest of my life. Okay. So I'm taking a deep breath and sitting back in my chair because those three, what you just described is beautiful. Thank you.

Yeah. And so in the way that you described it in retrospect is very spiritual, obviously. And it was a moment of transcendence is what you're talking about, right? Yeah. And so that temporary moment of transcendence that you experienced, I'm, I want to ask how you got in and how you got out of it. What pulled you out? Maybe is a better way to saying it. And then I think I know the answer of what you did without awareness, right? Is you want, you want even deeper with those three questions, the awareness of those three questions. And did you, had you

have read, okay, here's a cynic. Okay. Was that the page you were reading in the encyclopedia when your medication was off and whatever whatever and you know and that those you know like i i love being the cynic i'm not really a cynic so i'm not a good job i don't do a good job at it but those three questions are so paramount and so foundational i've been around for so long that's right as a mindfulness practice or meditation practice that who am i is like the e it's the question that's right if we're going to look at mindfulness as a as a underpinning of our conversation and what that means or at least what it means to me and the pursuit of ever deepening and expanding awareness at a certain point we have to look at what i call the thought stream right which is is the flow of thoughts and beliefs and images and memories and emotions through the mind,

and realize that mindfulness, what it points to as a word, is a capacity of consciousness that is not defined or determined by the thought stream, which is where we live when we create and believe in a historical account of anything. Just the other day, I happened upon a quote from Carlos Castaneda, the fantastic guitarist, and he said, I don't play music. The music plays me. I was like, oh.

And I went, for a lot of years, I played mindfulness as an instrument, right? Which is where, to your question earlier, how did you leave that transcendent moment? We leave the state of mindfulness because we're just practicing it, and then we come back to the thought stream. So we're playing music, we're playing mindfulness, we're playing awareness as it should be. But at a certain point, and now this is just anecdotal, this is my experience, we don't do that anymore. The music plays us. The awareness plays us. The awareness becomes the 51% owner of the company of who we are. All right. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance,

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on my Felix Grays in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to felixgray.com and use the code findingmastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X G-R-A-Y.com and use the code findingmastery20 at felixgray.com for 20 off i hear this a lot people ask often and i ask this of people that have been practicing mindfulness for a long time

same question what does your practice look like now and so early on i thought to myself yeah i gotta get back on it you know because i'm not doing as much dedicated 20, 30, 40 minute training sessions. Sure. And and then what I've come to realize now without feeling sloppy about it is that, wait, it's like 18 hours a day minus the two hours that I'm blowing it. Like it's like it's pretty much like, I feel really connected a lot of what I'm doing. Could I be better? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So is that what you're saying? Is that at some point there was deep practice and then like training and then at some point it becomes embodied? Yes. I like the word embodied a lot. Awareness we're talking about. Right. And, you know, one of the things we do, I want to just send up a caution note for my own sake and for our conversation is I don't live in language anymore.

Let's see if I can say this completely. In the last number of years when I was dealing with this health matter, a number of things were catalyzed and triggered. I called them pony rides to oblivion because for maybe two and a half years, I lived mostly in a state that I could not articulate or name. It was silence, but it was beyond silence. There was nothing there. And then coming back, I noticed a number of things that were different than when I had gone on these rides, one of which was what I call the collapse of language as a medium for meaning and significance. In other words, I'm basically a

speaker. The work that I do is coaching people in public speaking, and I do a little writing. So for a speaker and a speaking coach and a writer to have language collapse. It's a rather, it could be a rather daunting experience, but instead it wasn't, it was hugely liberating. But what I mean is, let me ask you, let me just do a little Aikido move here and, and ask you to recount an experience, an episode, where you felt you were completely immersed in the world of mindfulness. What is that like for you?

In the world of mindfulness. So if I rephrase the question, a moment where I was completely absorbed in whatever I was doing. Whatever. What is that like? So surfing comes up, and it's a place I find it often and conversations. It's those two places I find it easiest. What it's like is, um, I know that you're, well, I'm going to say what comes to mind is that it, it escapes language. Okay. And it's not that you just beg that out of me. It's that,

so I've said this over and over again, Cat Stevens, one of the great singer songwriters says, there's a line that he says that I listened to my words and they fall far below. And so I listened to the words to try to articulate what it is that I'm experiencing that moment. And there's, it's really difficult to do it. So it's like, it's not like that run out of words. It is that the words can't quite capture the expression and the intuitive connection that's happening at that moment. And the way that I try to get after it is that there's this really large container that I become and that container, um, it's not that things are perfect and working out as they're supposed to. It's not that at all. It's that the, um, access to information externally, internally, the container has gotten larger. And so there's more room for me to play with that large container

when I'm under duress and stress. And I've got this narrow band of focus that eliminates and gates out other stuff it's not that it is not that it's very different there's a a wide container where i can flow from narrow band to wide band of attention right and assimilation of information so i know i got technical no no but there's there's also one more element to it sure is um there's a little there's a coming out of it there's a sensation that is below my heart in the solar plex area that starts to buzz and it's the same feeling i get when i'm in like in in in a loving moment with my wife there's that little type of sensation that happens there. And so it's not just a container. There's also a sensation that comes with it.

So those are the two ways that I think about it. Okay. So in, let's say in this state, if you like, or in this that you're describing, where the language is insufficient really to carry the day in any way and there is an opening of a feeling sensation right if someone were to come to you and you're in that state deeply profoundly absorbed in that and give you a lecture about mindfulness for example are you going to even hear it i don't know i'm going to grin because i'm in it you know like yeah so they're speaking about yeah if they're going to talk to me about the mechanics of it i don't know they're speaking about and they're speaking from my point with respect to language at just as a cautionary tale, is I will say at the risk of being misunderstood and of being completely erroneous, which doesn't bother me, that I live in that and I don't come out of that state anymore.

It's not a state. It's who I've become by default. My default consciousness is before language. So this is really important because you've asked a number of times so far about coming in and coming out. Right. Or mindfulness, we practice it, and then at some point does the practice bear fruit into something else yes because i did practice for decades different kinds of techniques and so on and i lived with a

meditation master for 11 years and every every second of every day was an intensive program in cultivating awareness and so on but over over the decades, through the pursuit of various ways, but always with the curiosity and questioning to go deeper and deeper, what I found is that we can call it a state. I like to think of what the word mindfulness or awareness points to. It's a word that points somewhere. Where does it point to? It points to an independent existence, a feature of consciousness itself that includes but is larger than what we call the thought stream, what I call the thought stream, our mind. So without saying we've got to in some way deal with the mind,

if we simply move, like where do you live currently? What city? Redondo Beach. Redondo Beach. Okay. If you wanted to move to New York, let's say, you could maybe go and visit a few times, check it out, look at properties, but sooner or later, you'd have to move there. And then next year I meet you and I go, Mike, where do you live? You

go, I live in New York. You're not visiting New York. You live there. My experience is, and maybe it's as a result of practice, I'm not sure, but my experience is at a certain point you move the point, you move the default setting of your conscious awareness from the thought stream to what is aware of the thought stream, and that awareness includes the thought stream, but because it is already separate and independent, it now becomes an entire continent of mystery and revelation and insight and knowledge for discovery.

And I think what supports moving to that place is the practice, yes, but I also think it's the intention because you know from your work, my guess is at a certain point you're going to have conversations with the people you work with about identity. Not who am I necessarily in an existential sense, but in a practical sense. Who are you on this team? Who are you in this company? Who are you? The who am I that I pursued was sort of the existential kind. And so for me, it was not contextualized, even though I've been a leadership coach and I've worked in organizations and with professional athletes and so on, not to your level, but I've worked with a lot of folks and have always felt I've made a contribution to the practicality of their work and the competence of their work. But also my path was, didn't stay there i i didn't want to end up

having the pursuit of my question who am i contextualized by being in an organization on a team being this or that it was i want to go all the way and see where it goes in and of itself. And so it has a lot to do with what are we going to pursue and what are we willing to let go of in the pursuit of that? Because I've had, and I'm not making this universal, I'm just sharing, but in the pursuit of that questioning, I've had to let go of everything else. Because there was something so irresistible about where I was headed. I didn't know ultimately where because I couldn't see the end game, but the constant pursuit of just deeper and deeper came at an opportunity cost, right? The accounting term. Well, if I'm going to spend three years in silence, what is the cost? Well, professional success, money, a relationship, you know, whatever. Did you spend a lot of time without speaking?

Yes. How much time? Yes, I spent a lot of time over the years not speaking. But it's really important for me to say not speaking and silence are two entirely and unrelated things. Because we both know that we might not be saying anything with our mouths. Our mouths could be closed tight. And our mind is screaming a thousand million things. So at a certain point, yes, I can remember at different times in the distant past, I would stop speaking for a couple of months. Once when I lived in the ashram in India in the 70s and 80s, I remember going native and I got a little chalkboard

and I wouldn't speak for like three months at all to drive people absolutely crazy I'd go you know just wait a second and I write on the chalkboard you know so another irony in the same way that I said well language has collapsed and I don't live in language but what do you do well I'm a speaker and a writer. Okay. I talk incessantly. My mind is quiet because the default place of my conscious awareness is not the thought stream. Okay. Hold on. Let's go. Let's do something really quickly is so the scientist says, you've made up a lot of stuff. This thing that is the observer of thoughts, come on. Thoughts are nothing more than a neurological electrical activity that comes from the tissue of the brain. And so I know that that's actually what I think an old thought for neuroscience.

I don't think many neuroscientists are thinking that. But I don't know. I don't know where the state of neuroscience is on that thought. But let's take the cynic neuroscientist that says, no, no, no, come on. There's no there there. Right. It's like we've made up this construct to be able to, and you're pointing to your shirt that you make stuff up. I love it.

But we're pointing to this construct of the observer of thoughts. Right. But that's just a mystic idea that will never hold up, blah, blah, blah. Yes. So how do you, I don't know, how do you respond to that? Well, I would just agree with them. Well, okay. And how do you agree with a point of view that says there is no place that

you're talking about but i don't disagree here's why this is important thank you remember when i mentioned i'm playful but i'm sincere well in my dictionary words that i use repeatedly have precise meaning since i had to create my own dictionary after the collapse of language. And playfulness to me means I'm not trying to be right, I'm not afraid of being wrong, and I have nothing to defend.

Cool. Okay. Cool thought. That's playful. So if I'm with a scientist who's is saying everything i'm saying is ridiculous and mystical hogwash i've just said what i've said because it's truth lowercase t it's the honest and accurate verbal representation of my experience, knowing that I've probably made it all up anyway, but I'm not trying to be right about it. I'm not afraid of being wrong, so there's

nothing to defend. So if someone says, Robert, what you're saying is complete nonsense i'm like oh okay i get it you're quite right if you want to be right why am i gonna argue if you want to be right if you think you're right because i don't live in being i live in a playful universe it's um and it's a big there's a lot of space in what you've the way you've designed your engagement in life that That's right. Thank you. Yeah. There's a lot of space in that. Which means for the people I work with, there's enormous opportunity for them to change who they are in an instant. Because I'm not ever trying to be right, it also affects how I listen. Because I'm not listening for an opportunity for me to come back and be right. Right. I'm just listening. How would you point to the cornerstones for you to become more playful

as a wave to help others know how to become more playful? And then I want to get to those 10 words that are guiding you. How do I do that? They always, well, yesterday I was on a call with a client. She lives in Australia. At the end of it, I would say, she would say, she was different fundamentally than she was when we started. And, okay, what did I do? What did I do? How was I? Well, I listened,

and she told me both how to be, energetically and in connection, how to be and what to say, that was just enough separate from her entrenched and this is right attitude to create space, as you said a moment ago. So I just create space because I'm not projecting onto them, and I don't believe what they say. So there's a big space of possibility.

And what I say in that space of not projecting what I think is right onto them and not believing them, everything is suddenly fluid, isn't it? Yeah. You know, I don't know if you need to give me the mechanics of it because what you've just done is offered space and that's it. So you just live that way. And then just being around it. And so I had this thought as you were speaking, which was, you know, like, I just wish that you would like in my consciousness, you remind me of having more space. And so if you were around more often, you'd be like, Mike, why are you taking this so seriously? You know? And like, so I think that that's probably what you're, you're living it and

just being around it. You're reminding people of it, which is one of the great gifts that we can give from deep listening. Okay. Gotcha. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next

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And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com

slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Can we do this? Can we do the seven chapters of your life? Eight chapters, nine chapters, whatever it is. Chapter one is like being a curious kid.

Okay. Chapter two is breaking my leg and having my first transcendental moment. Okay. What's chapter three onward chapter, whatever it is. Like I got told I got cancer. We've gone all Zen here. Okay.

So chapter three, chapter three would be my high school years in Anaheim, California in the mid sixties, when as a consequence, now I'm making this up, but there's some accuracy, I think when, as a consequence of chapter two, the epiphany at 11 years of age, who am I? The only thing that was available in the mid sixties before you were born besides drugs was besides drugs. Well,

I'd got, that would be chapter five. Let me get to it. Hang on. Would be books, Western philosophers. So I shared a bedroom with my older brother, and I remember at night under the covers with a flashlight

through most of high school reading Descartes. I don't even remember all the Western philosophers because they were the only books that I could get hold of that were still feeding that curiosity. So I think that was another, maybe not a chapter, the only books that I could get hold of that were still feeding that curiosity. So I think that was another, maybe not a chapter, but another forward movement experiences of dipping into what I could. And then the next chapter was getting out of high school and starting to wander. I lived up in the north of California, Humboldt County, studied Aikido, Zen.

That's when I discovered LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, and so on. And that became, I replaced the Western philosophers with the... Western chemists. With the Western chemists. how often did you use just say frequently i would say frequently it became an important part of my lifestyle and that's also when i would say i could actually say this is another chapter because that's when now we had alan watts we had carlos costaneda's books we had ram das be here now was i think the late 60s maybe 70s so now i'm going oh i'm going from western philosophy which was very intellectual to experient, based on a lifestyle of Zen and Aikido and drugs and living in the mountains of Northern California, which then opened up an entirely different

chapter and pathway. So then I ended up in Europe for a couple years, same pursuit, ended up in Israel living for a year, and then ended up traveling overland to India. So that was a whole chunk in and of itself. Searching for? The same thing. Mike, I'm nothing if not persistent. So the next chapter after ending up in India is finding my way to the ashram Swami Muktananda, with whom I lived for 11 years. How do you spell his name? Swami, S-W-A-M-I, Muktananda, M-U-K-T-A-N-A-N-D-A. Okay. And that was, that's not a chapter in a book.

That's another book in and of itself. And, you know, then after 11 years, then there's other chapters that involve. What did you do for food and money and shelter? Well, we lived in the ashram. So it was a community. We were given meals and so on in exchange for we would do work. The ashram in India then grew and became an international nonprofit teaching foundation. We had like 30 ashrams around the world, 400 or 500 centers.

When we would have summer-long programs in upstate New York at our facility. We'd have 4,000 people in residence. So as the organization to promote the teachings of my teacher expanded and became international, my work from sweeping paths and picking stones out of the rice, became managing, and ultimately I became the vice president of that global teaching enterprise. So that's in exchange for room and board. We never got paid. It wasn't the drill, but it was a way of paying for the curriculum, I suppose. So at the end, in 1985, when I finally left, I was the vice president of this global teaching organization, in which without knowing had unwittingly learned things about management and leadership and communication that six months later, I went from 11 years of an ashram to the senior VP of a billion-dollar communications company as a leadership coach. And I can tell you.

Are you an internal hire? Like you're a full-time hire? No, no. I never did that. Always consulting. Because then began a whole other chapter where I was taking the 11 years of what I experienced and learned in the ashram that was contextualized in a certain way in Indian philosophical systems and so on. And now I'm a contemporary leadership consultant and coach how does so that begins a whole other chapter where i had to relearn things or maybe i had to reframe repurpose what i had learned and learn a different language and all of that and then the last five years have been well the last five years, you know, when a group of doctors gets around your bed, shows you a scan of your spine,

which you can't really see because tumors have eaten away most of your spine and your hips and pelvis are riddled with tumors, then you can't move your legs and your whole body is screaming in pain. And they say, statistically, you have six months to live. There's really nothing we can do at all. And I was in Australia when I had that diagnosis, and they said, if you're going to go back to the U.S., you should go now. But because your lower spine has been so compromised, you're at risk for spinal collapse, which, of course, would make you instantly paralyzed.

So be careful so you know that if you're looking for signature moments you could say well i suppose we could throw that into the mix and it was never to be quite honest and this is another conversation but in all of that the thing that always caused me the most distress was this idea of spinal collapse. It wasn't cancer and dying and all of it. It was just, oh, my God, are you kidding me? My spine's going to collapse and I'll be in influx. Like, oh, no. So, but yes, that then precipitated the last five years. However, cancer to me, I've never identified with being a cancer patient, a cancer victim, a cancer survivor.

Cancer to me is, you know, there are some cells that got a little wild. They had their own spring break. You know, I wasn't paying very much attention. But I don't have cancer. I never had cancer. The languaging is so important because the languaging creates the space or the lack of space.

I held the space for cancer to visit me temporarily. So what was catalyzed by cancer as an event, as I've had, as you've had, thousands of catalyzing, triggering events, every moment actually is one. The game for me was always, well, how am I going to respond? In other words, six doctors said, such and such, this is your reality. But I had already spent decades going, thank you for your opinion. That's your reality of me, my response will determine my reality. How am I going to respond to the opinions of these doctors? And I think my response came from the same place in me that I had been living from since I was 11 years of age,

which is, who am I, and what is true, and what is true and what is real. So I'm still here and I don't know, maybe half the doctors have died of something. I don't know. So it's really important, you know, this whole idea of not living in language, of living in the space. Mechanically, let's go down to one or two little gem nuggets that people can use to create space and freedom. Fantastic. You know, what would be a, I got it, practice, a thing that

people could do? I got it. Yeah. 10 words. Be present. Pay attention. Listen deeply. Speak truthfully. Act creatively. That's it. That's it. Everything. That's it. That's all I got. Ten words. And those are the five principles of authentic living is what I call them.

A la your book. A la my book. And one nugget, one gem, one practice to be able to be more present. Be more present. Okay. How do present. Okay. I know I'm asking for training. No, no, that's fine. I don't want to belittle the experience. No, no, no. But there's a starting place for us. Be present, which cannot be defined or determined by the thought stream. Okay, practice. Develop the capacity to hear and feel your breathing and stay in constant

contact with that. Love it. Do you put a timer on it or like, yeah, your whole life. Yeah. And so like research is suggesting six, eight, what there's research around minimal effective doses of that for minimal return. Okay. And then there's optimal doses, which is 18 hours a day or whatever. Right. 16 hours a day. So for beginners, how do you begin? How do you begin that practice? How did your teacher ask you to do it?

We would have regular periods of seated meditation but we would also spend a lot of hours in the day chanting sacred texts where you had a certain posture and you had to everything we did there there was a corollary of being mindful in In other words, mindful being present, right? Because if you're not present, you can't be functioning really well. At a high level, at least. At a high level. So very specifically, the whole idea of being present is, in so far as I see it, is to not be caught in the thought stream and therefore living in the projections of the thought stream onto the screen. How do we neutralize that? The best, I think the most immediate way is your breathing is always present. It's always here in time, right? And it isn't subject to what you think. In fact, if we just do it for 30 seconds,

just not as a heavy practice, but just the casual awareness of the sound and the feel of our breathing, which should be easy because it's always there. But we're going to lose that in about four seconds. Where do we go? Well, we're going to lose that in about four seconds where do we go well we're going to go into our thought stream so if we just then return to a casual easy relationship to the sound and feel of what is which is our breathing sooner or later we can inhabit both spaces feel and sound of breathing and i can be thinking crazy thoughts but i don't get lost in them and that's the game is don't get lost once you're lost you can't you can't do anything until you come out again and we can spend 10 years you know on the way to the kitchen to get a glass

of milk and 10 years later what the hell was i doing what, on the way to the kitchen to get a glass of milk. And 10 years later, what the hell was I doing? What was I going to get from the kitchen? Right? What a great conversation. We've talked about getting lost for 10 years. We've talked about kicking cancer's ass and we've talked about having enough space to feel on demand. And so last question, and then I want to know where we can find you so last question is how do you think about articulate or even define the concept of mastery mastery it's not a word i typically use so i looked at it and it was to acquire a high level of skill or proficiency, sort of mastery as a noun,

maybe like we plant the flag on the summit of something. And then it's also, according to the dictionary, the action or process by which we acquire that level of skill and so on. I would prefer to answer that second level thing because I don't, personally, I would not claim mastery in anything you know I've not I can't say I've planted my flag on the summit of anything but thinking about this I say well what do I what can I say, well, what can I say honestly about skill sets that I feel I've cultivated over time? all things, facilitating the process for others who are engaged in discovering their own truth and clarity and authenticity. And I would say, in terms of being a teacher, coach, mentor, in this public speaking realm,

anyone who wants to become a more authentic and effective speaker, I could say, without claiming mastery, I am the best in the world. Only by way of answering your question. I know, but... So how do we get to any of these competencies? How do we get to... Only by way of answering your question. Oh, yeah. I know. So how do we get to any of these competencies? How do we get to, you know, we're in your office and there's a picture of some guy on a football field.

Maybe he's running for a touchdown or maybe he's screwed up and he's running away from his coach. I don't know. And you've got pictures of skiers flying through space. You know, how do we get there? You don't just fall off the wagon. You work your ass off. Because my performance has always been more in the realm of facilitating process, of speaking, I'm not a football player, I've not jumped out of airplanes,

I don't ski. Well, I did once and broke my leg. But still, I've worked with people. So the process by which we be, we are on the journey of mastery, right? On the journey of mastery. And we might say, what does it look like to be, to, to be a high performance human being? So I feel like I've pursued that. I've got to go with the five principles. You know, be present, because we're just not going to get anywhere if we're not present, because we're all, we're just going to live in our minds, in our thought stream. Okay, then what? Pay attention. One degree focus, like you teach guys, and simultaneously 360-degree awareness inside and out continuously.

Listen deeply to where the Cat Stevens song points to. Speak truthfully what you and I are doing and act creatively, which is really important because in the end, we're action figures. I mean, I lived a lot of years, maybe decades, without connecting to the action part because I was more maybe transcendentally oriented or something and if I could talk about it I think I know it everything for me now it comes out in the wash in action you know what so the act creatively is taking every all those 10 words to me is the practice path for anyone. I would offer those to anyone I was working with and then help them translate those into application depending on their context. Love it.

Where can we find out more? How can we follow along? What's the right way socially to do so uh robertrabin.com r-a-b-b-i-n thank you robertrabin.com is my website just go there there's a contact form send me an email i am I am half-mouthed, will travel. I am healthy. I am freed from my process of five years. I am available for everything that is described on my website. Please visit.

Please contact me. And we'll rock and roll. And I support that. Thank you, Mike. That's very kind. I appreciate that. And for everyone that's listening, thank you for staying connected. If you enjoyed this conversation, head over to RobertRabin.com.

Thanks. R-A-B-B-I-N. And then also keep connected to us on social media. Instagram is at Finding Mastery. Twitter is at Michael Gervais. And then if you enjoyed this podcast, enjoyed these conversations, head over to iTunes. You can download it and also write a review. It deeply helps.

And then if you want to take it even further, head over to our Finding Mastery tribe. You can find that on the website. And Robert will be there to hopefully answer some questions that will be coming your way. Yeah, I figured so. And the Facebook page. The Facebook page. Yeah, that's really it. That's where the tribe is. Yeah, it's been awesome.'s been awesome and um so i just want to thank everyone for the community

robert thank you for your time my pleasure and look forward to talking soon absolutely thank you All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com

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