Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Author Ryan Holiday on Ego, Obstacles, Writing

Episode Date: September 8, 2016

Ryan Holiday is a media strategist and prominent writer on strategy and business. After dropping out of college at nineteen to apprentice under Robert Greene, author of The 48 Laws of Power, he went on to advise many bestselling authors and multiplatinum musicians. In This Episode: -The concept of parent-child fit and why it was missing for him -Finding the people who understood him in college -Learning under Robert Greene -His method for ideating and organizing thoughts Why his work can be exhilarating and exhausting -The on-going journey to find inner peace The destructiveness of one's “ego” -How his experience at American Apparel create an intersection of his intellectual work and personal life -His love for stoicism_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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how they understand how the world works, how they understand how they work and people work. And the idea behind exploring that is to see if we can use their insights and wisdoms to reveal deeper our insights and wisdom. So insight and wisdom is revealed. It's not gathered from outside of us. We have to work from within to be able to reveal insight and wisdoms. So this conversation for me, at least, is like this calibration tool. And it's to hear and challenging ideas and also to hear ideas that have alignment-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information

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So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. So in this conversation, there'll be some of both of those. There'll be ideas that make sense and don't make sense to you, hopefully. And then the other part of the conversation is to understand the mental skills that they use to build and refine their craft. And so that's very much an applied curiosity that we've got there.

Okay, so this conversation is with Ryan Holiday. And Ryan, some of you might recognize part of his story is that he served as a director and marketing director at American Apparel for many years when he was young. So he cut his teeth there and he kind of zipped into a position of influence of that brand for a long time. And the campaigns that he helped to create and or created himself, they've been studied as case examples for Twitter and YouTube and Google and people that are trying to create disruptive splashes on a regular basis. So Ryan describes himself as a media strategist, and I know him as a writer and as

a businessman. And so he's got two books that are floating around the Seattle Seahawks on a regular basis. Ego is the Enemy and Obstacle is the Way. And if you haven't picked up those books, I think that you'll enjoy them. They're rich. They're not simple. They're written well, but they're rich in content. And both of them, because he is, they're capturing the ideas of Stoicism as an applied philosophy, as a practical and applied philosophy. And some of the philosophers that you might recognize, Epictetus, Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, those are all Stoicism or Stoic philosophers. And just a quick note, philosophy is wonderful. It's complicated. It's invisible. It's inspiring and challenging of psychological framework. And so while it's important to read some of the great

thinkers of the world, it's also important, equally as important, at some point to anchor your own philosophy. You know, what is, in a quick sentence or two, what is the basic decision-making framework that you operate from? And can you get your philosophy down to 25 words or less? Can you get it down to 10 words or less? Can you get it down to just a couple sentences, a couple words that really capture the center of how you understand the world or how you understand people. And that's a real challenge. And I think that if you're listening to these podcasts, that's part of what you're interested in, like to better understand your philosophy, what you stand for.

And hopefully this conversation will stir some of that up for you, but nothing can really replace the lonely work, the sitting alone to be able to get really clear and to think deeply about what it is that you stand for and what is your framework. So I want to encourage you to do that and maybe do it after, maybe just pause right now and just etch down exactly how you understand who you are and the philosophy that you operate from. And so a fancy way to think about philosophy is that it's your decision-making framework. And so if you think about some of the great leaders in the world, whether they be spiritual

or political leaders, that they were clear about what they stood for. They were clear about the ideas that were at the central of the human experience. And they were so clear that that's what they talked about all the time. That's what they represented. And they had alignment there. That's why we're compelled to follow. That's why we're compelled to be inspired because what they stood for, they also had alignment in thought and action. So that's not reserved for these really smart people that lived 2000 years ago. That's not reserved for them or just the really brilliant people that have shaped culture across spirit or spiritual and or political landscape. That's for all of us.

And it's kind of the hidden challenge is to do just that. Okay. So I just hope this conversation reconnects you with, you know, the importance of carving your own path. And, you know, I also think that, you know, we touch upon things that are relevant to all of us, you know, like how the ego gets in the way. And we talk about how things that you care about can be exhilarating and exhausting, both of them, and the importance of having mentorship. And we talk about carving your own path, and that might mean taking a non-traditional route. So there's so much in here. I'm honored

to be able to introduce to you Ryan Holiday and his story. So let's jump right into this conversation. Ryan. It's good to be here. Yeah, I'm excited. So let's jump right into this conversation. Ryan. It's good to be here. Yeah, I'm excited. So I say that for everybody because I really get into this place where I'm equally as curious of how this conversation is going to go that I think you are. Yeah. Yeah. So where do you want to start? What do you want to start with? You're the boss. I'll start wherever you want.

All right. So if we're going to take this journey on kind of your framework for mastery and then some of the mental skills you've used to refine and build your craft, when did you... And you've written... Okay. So let's set the stage. You've written four books. How old are you? I'm 29. I just turned 29. It fascinates me because I've read your books before we met each other. I've read your books and you know, some stuff, I guess. How do you know stuff? How do you know? Because when I'm reading your writing, it feels like you're 59, 69. I do feel like I'm very old. Um, I feel old. I like, like for instance, like I'm a millennial. And so I watched the show girls, and these are supposed to be like my people. And I'm like,

who are like, I don't, I don't relate to that at all. Like, I sound like I don't relate to it. I, I'm like, surprised that those people exist. Okay. So is that like the shorthand for, I feel older than I feel much older than like a lot of this sort of millennial angst. I don't understand. And I feel the opposite of that angst. Okay. So let's, let's pull on that and see how far we can take that. Um, when did you first notice that you were just a little bit different than your millennials or your peers or your friends? Probably around like 14 or 15. I started feeling very distant from my family.

Like I was not the black sheep because that would sort of imply that my parents didn't like me or that like I was always in trouble. I wasn't in trouble, but I felt very apart. And that feeling continued. And I, as I got into high school and then in college, I gravitated towards much older people. Okay. So are you a only child? I have one sister, one sister, her age. She's 20. She's three years younger than me. So she's 26. Okay. And how old were your parents when? They were in their late 20s, early 30s. When you were born? Yeah.

Okay. So they experienced life. Yeah. Yeah. So they, okay. So they, my parents were young. Okay. And so I had that experience of feeling like they weren't that far ahead. Yeah. But your parents had lived, they were adults, so to speak. Yeah. Okay. And what happened around 14, 15? What was a memory there?

I've done some reading about this. One of the things I was reading, I was introduced to this concept of like parent-child fit. And I don't know that much about it, but that concept, when I read that for the first time, I was like, oh, I didn't have that. Like, it just wasn't a fit. Like, we get along now. And I love them both. But like, there was just no ability for them to understand who I was, or what was going on. And in a weird way, it probably would have been better or easier if I was getting in trouble. Because that's like more of a standard playbook, I think. But it was more just like, who is this person?

And why is he not like us? I think that was their reaction. It's like an alien. Yeah, right. Okay. But it didn't seem that weird to me. Because again, I wasn't doing anything that odd. I just felt very apart.

You know, when you're describing that, I'm saying, I think I understand that, you know, because, um, I'm not sure I think about the same things as a lot of my friends. Yeah. And I think that that was true in high school. Sure. And you're like, yeah, you don't understand, dude. Like, no, no, no, no. I think that's right. Yeah. Okay. Now 14, 15 was the beginning of high school for you, I guess. Yeah. Is it in that range? Yeah. Okay. And then 14, 15 was the beginning of high school for you? I guess. Yeah. In that range? Yeah. Okay. And then what I hear you saying is the parent fit. It was like the early years,

the harmony, the insight, the understanding from parents to you, that fit was never hand in glove. Yes. Yeah. Okay. What was it like? What was it like not fitting? Yeah. I was thinking if it's not hand in glove, like what was it like? What was it like not fitting? Yeah. I was thinking if it's not hand in glove, like, what was it like? Was it, it was lonely, right? Um, it was like there was this family and then I was just there. So the three, your sister and two parents. Yeah. And was that, that you were doing different things or thinking? No, we're just very, very different. Like, so like I dropped out of college. My sister is the assistant director of the college board. So like it's like in just whatever the opposite of each other's paths are that happened. So and those I think those seeds were sown pretty early. Like I didn't necessarily know where any of this is going, But clearly, I was gravitating towards something very different. And I think, like, I've listened to Marc Maron's podcast a lot. And he

talks about with like comedians, where it's like, you know, that you like comedy, let's say, but you don't know anyone that the idea that this is a thing that you could do, if you don't have anyone around you, you're, you're just sort of not fitting in. And so I think I felt that like, I didn't know any writers. I didn't like, I read books, but I wasn't reading good books. So it was just sort of lonely and strange. And was the lonely and strange depressing or was it? Yeah. Yeah. So it was like in whatever the, you know, catcher in the rye depressing kind of thing was, you know, like not, yeah, not like clinically depressed, not in that kind of sense, but a bit of a wanderer trying to figure things out. Why do I not fit? Right. Okay. And what did, did you have friends?

Yeah. Yeah. And did they think you were weird? No, I don't think so. I wasn't like unpopular and I wasn't popular. So just sort of apart. Okay. And that loneliness, um, when did you, when do you first remember that loneliness? Uh, probably high school, high school. Yeah. You know, I, I want to share a story is that I think I was in six, seventh, sixth or seventh grade. And I remember saying to my mom, I feel like there's an empty place in me. Wow. Yeah. And she says concerned. Yeah. What do you mean? And I was like, I just feel like there's this empty place. I'm not sure what it is. I think that that's pretty young to have that thought, right? I wasn't depressed. Like what you're just talking about. Like, I think I'm, I'm connecting in that it wasn't depression.

It was just this awareness that there was something that wasn't complete. Right. And, um, so my question, so I had that experience and then what did I do with it? Okay. And then, so you had your experience, what did you do with it? Um, well, actually to the young thing, like I've tried to do some inner child work in therapy and like, have you done therapy? Yeah. Yeah. And was it useful not useful i still do i still go um it's been very useful um but the weird part is when we were trying to do the inner child work like my inner like at four when i go back i'm still thinking like i'm like eight like it's always very intellectual so i think i took all of of that discomfort and loneliness and I intellectualized it and gravitated towards intellectual things. And so I think what happened around, so I was

feeling sort of very misunderstood, not appreciated, not part of anything. And then around college, when I started writing and I met some other writers, it just it fit for the first time. And all all I guess all the things that I probably wanted my parents to say, like, you're special, you have something like I believe in you. I got that from these older, successful people that I'd met. And so I think that that was why I immediately became sort of so addicted to it and consumed by it. So why not drugs? Why not rock and roll and I don't know, pick up a music or be a groupie or whatever the... I was very into music. Like I played guitar, I was in a band, but I wasn't very good. Like, like I could, I never had the discipline. Like I would hear like my friends or the people I was in a band with tell me that they would practice for like three hours. And I'd be like, I can do like 20 minutes. I didn't have the concentration and I wasn't getting the feedback that I needed to like writing. I was naturally good enough that I could lose myself in it. And then you get that feedback loop.

Okay. All right. So it, did it feel easy to, because the intellectual process that you naturally gravitated toward, did it feel easy to practice writing? It felt, um, it didn't feel hard. And then I started getting validation for it. And that, that became a loop. So was there a trap in that? Like, because you, this is me filling in some holes, right? Who am I? What am I doing? What am I part of? Whoa, people recognize me for writing. People recognize me, I'm guessing for being smart. People recognize me that are older than me, that I've got interesting ideas. And then is there any trap in there that comes from that external reward? And yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I had, do you know Rick Rubin? I do.

I had... I don't know him personally. Yeah. I don't really know him personally, but I met him through Neil Strauss when I worked. I helped Neil with some marketing on one of his books and we had lunch and we were talking and, and then afterwards, Neil called me and I don't know, I think Rick Rubin is very good at things like this. He just said, um, Rick wanted me to say, I don't know if I should be passing this on, but anyway, Rick wanted me to say that he wondered if you'd met different people. Wait, wait, wait, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. That was a really interesting little process. Like, I'm not, that was you working it out. Should I be saying this? No. Okay. I'm going to go for it.

I'll go for it. Yeah. Okay. He was like, Rick wanted me to know, wanted me to say that he didn't know if you'd met different people at a different point in your life, if you would be doing something totally different. And I never really thought about it that way. But I think there's not only not only is it somewhat accidental, and this thing just becomes your life, but also, yeah, it's very hard to it's very hard for me to not do. Like, that's the end of that sentence. It's very hard for me to not do. Right. So you saw my eyebrows. Just like, what's the rest of that sentence. It's very hard for me to not do right. So you saw my eyebrows just like, what's the rest of that? Okay. So it's hard for you to not do do. And I got it like, right. Like it would be like the amount of books that I've written. It's not an unreasonable

amount of books, but it's an atypical amount. It's hard for me to stop and not do it. Okay. So you're, you're begging this thought for me, which I've asked a lot of people, which is what are the people or events that have shaped you? And I think we're shaping some of the events, which is like, I didn't know how to fit in. And then I intellectualized. And then I was around people that were intellectual at some point and they said, Whoa, look at this kid. And then, so that fed you probably fed your ego. Okay. And that's the trap that, you know, gets fed is that all of a sudden there's a swelling that takes place. And then that swelling becomes, um, no, it's hard to get your head in the door. It's hard to, you know,

and it's hard to risk when you're almost like a mascot of yourself. Yeah. The nice part about writing is that it, and I wonder if this is true for other things. It's so hard that, and it's never as good as you want it to be. Why is it so hard? I agree. I, well, I think it's, I totally agree. First off, you have this sampling of the greatest people who have ever done that thing, right? So it's like, uh, if you're an Olympic wrestler, you have no idea who the best wrestler in the year 400 A.D. was or 400 B.C. was. Right. You're only competing against like a few generations of people, whereas like as a writer, you're comparing yourself to Homer and Thucydides and like all the all the greats. Right. So there's a longer tradition. So like the standards of what's good, I think, are so high if you love the craft.

How do you think about writing? I think about it as trying to... Fitzgerald has this definition that it's like genius is the ability to put into effect what's in your head. I think writing is taking what's in your head. I think writing is taking what's in your head and putting it into words. So that it's never as good as what's in your head. I was having a conversation with a mutual friend of ours yesterday, Stephen Kotler. And he says, Mike, um, you know, when, when you're, when you're starting to write, he says,

you just need to write, uh, talk into a tape recorder because, because your craft of writing is not, not nearly as sophisticated as your ability to speak words. That's probably right. And, um, do you, do you capture now I'm asking about your craft, right? Okay. Let me back up. So the way you think about writing is that it's difficult. There's a comparisons group of genius for the ages. You're aware of that group. So in some ways that inspires, but also creates a boundary, you know, to bump up against. And then, and then the question about your craft is that, do you capture what's in your head? Because I heard what you said, it's never as good as what's in your head. But I'm not sure what's in your head.

Yeah. And let me just pause one more thought. This is why I want to have the conversation with you. Because when I read your writing, no chance you're 29. Because it's rich and it's right and it's thoughtful and it's organized. And you've touched something that I found to be true as well. And so that's why I want to know what's in your head and how well are you able to translate that out? Well, I think I think first I don't and I don't think people do this enough.

It's the distinction between the researching and the thinking and then the writing. Right. So a lot of people don't take the time to do that. So they think, okay, I'm going to sit down and write. And so they have this thing that they've kind of thought about the idea, but they haven't, they're not thinking about it like a lawyer would, which is you need to have case law on your side and precedent, and you need to know all that before you marshal your argument. And so that's where you get a lot of lazy writing. That's like like let's say I wanted to talk about, you know, managing your perceptions. You don't what sounds weak is when you say, you know, my friend Susie had this problem.

Right. Or or, you know, let me tell you about my high school girlfriend or whatever. Right. Like they're not drawing from timeless material. And so it dates and it, it does not serve the argument well. So I make the distinction between the research and the work. And then the writing is really the stringing of the words together. So I have like, I have the book laid out and done to let's say 70% done before I've written any words. And so then it's, then the writing is really, it actually is about putting all the pieces together in the order that you want. And there's a lot of moving and adjusting and you actually do know what is in your head. This is like any good, great research project, right? Is research first,

understand it, then present some questions and then answer the questions through trials. Yeah. But there's this Hemingway quote where he says like, there's nothing to writing. It's just sitting down at a typewriter and bleeding. And that's first off there's, I don't think he ever actually said that it's's like a misattributed. But his own writing does not bear this out in any way. Right. Like, first off, he he wrote most of his books by longhand. And you can see them at the John F. Kennedy Library. But like he he wrote like 50 endings to a farewell to arms.

And he rewrote the second he rewrote that book like two or three times completely. So it's really not that. People think that writing is this flash of inspiration and it's actually a very deliberate, slow, methodical process. That is, it's actually sort of, here are the words that I've put down. Are they what I'm trying to say? Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing

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And how do you have, what has been your practice or your way to increase? I'm like skipping ahead, but sorry, because I want, now I'm into the kind of awareness piece. And I feel like I haven't figured out enough of your framework. But how do you increase your awareness of what's in your head? What do you do to have clarity about the thoughts, the feelings, the words? Yeah, I guess it's the exposing yourself to other smart people. So what I say, like when you when you say that there's things in my book that are true that match your experience, that's usually a result of me having found that same feeling in some other work of art, whether it's a painting or a podcast or a poem or some ancient work. So I'm trying to, like, I sort of have my own experiences and that I'm reading and experiencing. And it's almost like you're using the confirmation bias,

like, to your advantage. So it's like, you know, I want to write a book about ego or I want to write a book about sort of dealing with adversity. Now I'm going to go out into the world and I'm going to have this sort of magnet that's attracting things that either jive with that or challenge it. And then you have to explore the things that challenge it. Yeah. So confirmation bias for people maybe that are listening, that aren't familiar with it, which is just that is that when you have an idea, um, you fit and mold your idea into the conversation, right? And so you're confirming, um, um, it's a bias of confirmation.

Yeah. You're, you're seeing, it's like when you get a, is this the same one where it's like you get a new Toyota and all of a sudden you see like blue Toyotas all over the place. That's the law of saliency. Okay. Closely linked. Similar thing. Similar thing. Yeah. Which is the confirmation piece is, I like what you said because it can be a limiter. It's like the sky is blue. And then when I talk to everybody, they say, yeah. And then one person says, well, it's actually got some green in it.

And you say, yeah, but green and blue. Right. Blue, right? Yeah. They're close. Like, yeah, it's blue. Most people say blue. Yeah. The sky is blue. Where're close. Like, yeah, it's blue. Most people say blue. Yeah.

The sky's blue. Where actually one person had just said that it's actually green and they, maybe they're sound or not. Okay. So, but what you're saying is that you have an idea and then you match it up in the world and you're looking for other points of view or angles that confirm that, which the trap is, it could be a bias or it could be true. Cause, cause if you don't, if it doesn't happen, then that's usually a sign there isn't a book there,

right? Like I have lots of other ideas that could have been a book that are not books. Okay. All right. So that still doesn't get me to try to understand, like, how do you have awareness of your thoughts, your feelings? Do you see it in words? Do you see it in images and shapes and colors? I see it in words and in sort of moods and feelings. What does that mean? Like, so for The Obstacle is the Way, I was running and the intro of the book just sort of came to me. Like, so like the first line and just sort of, it's like, oh, that's what it is. Or like the structure of a book will come to me like, oh, that's what it is. Or like the structure of a book will come to

me like, oh, it's going to be three parts. And these are what the three parts are. And so it's, I'm getting, it's almost like these sort of flashes of images or, or moods that are like giving me a hint of what's there. And then I have to do the work to make them exist. And that's because you think about it a lot, whether you're running, writing, walking, talking, like that's the thing on the top of your mind. Yeah. Like, um, when I'm working on a book, I would say that's probably when my wife is least happy because that's when I'm prone to just disappear in the middle of a conversation or a drive or an experience or whatever. It's, it's like, and I'm sort of drawn to another place. Okay. All right. Um, so back to framework. Okay. Okay, cool. Right. And then let me see if I,

let me see before we move on. If I got this piece, right. Is that you think about it a lot and sometimes that pulls you out of the moment because something sparked you're confirming or working something out while you're supposed to be eating breakfast or talking to your wife or whatever. Um, which is like, I understand that, right. It's so attractive that it pulls you out. I've got a funny story. I was, um, with some, a group of athletes, I'll leave, leave them, um, nameless right now or for, uh, shapeless as well, but there's, they're absolutely dominant. Okay. And, uh, we're doing some work on imagery and it's like one-on-one, you know, like, but to do imagery performance imagery, well, you have to, um, have some discipline of mind. You have to be able to

focus richly. You have to know how to bring your mind back. And this is an alpha male, um, alpha competitor, uh, dominant human being in most environments that, that he's in, not because of size, just because of presence. Okay. And, um, so he was trying to get it. And like two days later, one of his buddies, um, uh, text me and he says, Hey, such and such can't stop. He's trying, he's trying, but we're, we're cracking up over here because he can't stop thinking about boobs. So, right. I was like, okay, alpha competitor, alpha male. Like that makes sense.

So, okay, that's fine. What do you do with it? Yeah. You know, what do you do with a distracted mind? You know, and so it's great. So I'd like, okay, I'm all over the place with you because. I'm very all over the place. It's probably me.

No, it's good. I'll keep some structure, but I like where we're going right now because I know you understand something obstacle is the way. And so for him, the obstacle is, um, difficult for him to refocus back to the present moment. When you were in a conversation with your wife or eating breakfast or whatever, it's, you, you find something so attractive that you go with it and you purposely let that run. It sounds like, as opposed to saying, wait, come back to my wife. Well, so I let it run, but what I'm doing is like the amount of times I've come into my house, like after a run and I said like, nobody talked to me, I need

to write this down and I'm writing it down. And then I'm putting it in like, I have a box of note cards and I put it in this box and then I don't think about it until I start writing again. So is it edited there or is it just like raw? Like it'll like maybe sometimes it's a word or sometimes it's a sentence or sometimes it's a this story about this person would be perfect for this chapter. And I'm just writing. I'm essentially capturing that feeling or that mood. And now it's a piece, I've created a piece, and I'm going to return to that piece when it's time to arrange.

So it's like the first six months of a book is just the collection of pieces. So before you have structure? Yeah. Or maybe I have a loose structure. And so if it's later on in the process, I know approximately where this piece is going, but I don't know where it's, I don't know exactly where it's going. It's just an important piece to pay attention. It might not make the final cut, but most of them don't. Most of them don't. Yeah. Okay. And you chose three by five cards. I use four by six note cards. Oh, so sorry. Yes. I'm very, it's a four by six ruled note cards, um, which I, I learned I was Robert Green's research assistant.

Yeah. And this is. Tell folks about like, uh, his work is pretty. I would say Robert Green is one of the greatest living nonfiction authors. Like I think in a hundred years, people will still be reading his book. Did he tell you that that's what, that's what you're supposed to say? No, no, he didn't. I'd love to meet him by the way.

Yeah. He's amazing. I'll connect you guys. Yeah. The work he's done is really cool. I mean, I think, I think he's sort of like, I think the 48 laws of power will be read in a hundred years the way that we read the prints, right? It's just a collection of, of wisdom from the ages.

And so I was his research assistant and this is his system. So he showed me how to use this system and that like the 48 laws of power is 48 chapters with a observance of a law and a transgression of a law that's hundreds of note cards for each chapter. Right. And so I just learned this is like, you put it all down on a note card. And so the first part of the book is just collecting note cards about things. So what are three laws that you remember from, from Robert? Yeah. Uh, never outshine the master. I think that's a great one. Um, I like, um, uh, never appeal to mercy or gratitude, always appeal to self-interest. I think that's a great one. And

then I like, and I'm constantly violating this one, but always say less than necessary. Here we are in a podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Okay. So, um, so if those are three laws or three chapters in the book, then the, the that I'm imagining that Never Outshine the Master, that you would just think about that on a run in a conversation. It's like, oh, there's something. And then you'd put it underneath that note card. Yeah. So obviously the 48 Laws of Power came out when I was in elementary school. So when I read it in high school, I think, before I'd even met Robert, I read it and I was like, this is amazing. I love this book. This is all the things I like about writing and reading and

stories. And I remember, I didn't know no cards yet, but I wrote down, then I read other books and I found examples that I thought would go in the 48 laws of power. I was like, Oh, this, I forget, I'm forgetting what they were, but it was like, Oh, this is a good illustration of law number six. Okay. Oh, look at that. Okay. So your style. Okay. This, how old were you then? I would have been like 18, 17, 18, 17, 18. Okay. So your style then is to think about things running in the background a lot. And then it's like you're doing some sort of scaffolding onto the infrastructure. Okay. And then when you scaffold on, the way that you do that is with a note.

Yes. Okay. So you anchor down, you get it out of you to make it real, and then you tuck it away. Yes. Okay. Is that exhausting to you or you get it out of you to make it real and then you tuck it away. Yes. Okay. Is that exhausting to you or does this feel like it's really invigorating? And I just gave you really two extremes and play with that wherever. It's both.

So, cause, cause it, so like, uh, I just read, so the way Robert sort of taught me this system later on is it's like you read a book and as you're reading the book, you're making notes and you're folding pages. Then you set that book aside for a while and then you go back to it. So there's also, there's a, it's sort of high intensity and then rest and high intensity and rest. So I just read, I'm in the middle of this, uh, Robert or William Manchester's three part biography on Winston Churchill. And each one's like a thousand pages. Do you read more books on people or on science? I love biographies. As I've gotten

older, I've gravitated a lot more towards biographies than books on topics. Because I feel like to explain a person, you have to explain the topic. So instead of reading a book about Victorian England, I'd rather read about the early years of Winston Churchill. So I read this eight, 900 page biography. And then I set, you know, I set aside for two weeks and then I had to sit down and go through that book a second time. And that was probably, I probably did a hundred note cards on that book. That's exhausting because I'm taking this passage or this story from Winston Churchill and I'm having to write it down longhand on a note card. That takes a long time. And it's, you're transcribing,

not changing it into your thoughts. A little of both. I might be saying like, here's this quote, this connects to this, or it might be a whole passage. And I'm just going to refer to that later. Okay. So that's the work. That's the, that's your hand is aching and you want that. You're looking for excuses not to have to write this stuff down because it's not the fun part. OK. And then the other part of that question was like the invigorating or the exhausting is I'm thinking about you and your wife or you and people. Yeah. And right now I'm not getting this for you. Right. Because I'm not getting that in the background you're trying to solve something else. It feels like you're solving or playing in this conversation. And that's the part I want to understand for you that I'm not here right now. No, I think you are. Oh yeah. I don't think you're, yeah, it feels that way. It

doesn't because it's really noticeable when somebody's working in the background and not fully engaged now. Right. Right. And the individual knows it. And then the people around them know it. Okay. So that's what I'm trying to sort out because, uh, let me, let me riff for a second. I said invigorating because it's like a Eureka moments or those moments that are like, Oh snap. Like, Oh my, Oh my God. Like that is fantastic. Right. That is just wonderful. And I don't know how to do it other than either purposely getting really quiet and, or having this thing in the background. But sometimes that thing in the background that I'm trying to solve and figure out,

it's exhausting. And I know that that's probably why I was attracted to mindfulness as a, as a practice. So like, that's what I'm trying to sort out with you is where are you with that? It does. It can, it can consume your life. Um, and it can draw you away from whatever you're experiencing. Like I, so ego just came out and, and I should be able to give myself a break, but I had some random conversation. I've already started thinking about what I might want to do next. And I would love to be able to actually turn that off, but I, I can't, I haven't gotten there yet.

You can, but we have to train it. No, I mean, I haven't, I haven't trained myself. I haven't done the work to be able to do that as well as I like. Yeah. Okay. Um, so. Usually my solution is to go work on something else very intense, which is really just deferring it. It's not actually turning it off. Does that come from a place of curiosity, anxiety, need to anxiety? It's more anxiousness. Yeah. So it's an unsettledness. Yeah. Do you feel it in your body or your head? Both. Both. Yeah. Do you have a sense that it starts with thoughts or does it start with a

body reaction? Probably starts with thoughts. Starts with thoughts. I can feel it in my stomach sometimes, but it's mostly thoughts. Yeah. And then I don't know if you want to talk about it, but yeah. But like what, what are the thoughts? Um, it's, it's, uh, I mean, I guess it can depend. A lot of times the thoughts are not, are whatever that the thing in the background, it's like the work, Oh, this would be cool. What about this? You know, this is what it look like. You know, it's like, I would, I would like to not, you know, it's like, I would like to be able to call in sick from your own head. Yeah. I need a break. Yeah. Yeah. Um, is it, so the anxiousness, like where I'll tap in is like, um, these early thoughts for me early, early, early, which were, um, I'm not sure how I fit in.

I think you go, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Here we are. And then, so, oh, I know how I can fit in when I do some really cool stuff like that. Okay. Then that makes sense. And then, oh, I'm actually enjoying

it and people recognizing it. That's why I was asking about that trap, you know? So, um, you've experienced that trap. Absolutely. Yeah. That's like my biggest problem. Hence the book. Uh, no, not this book. Like my, my, my biggest, actually, no, I, I mean, I opened the book. I talk a little bit about sort of work addiction and being, not being able to turn it off. It was definitely part of the pain point, but I would say ego is much more about other people than it is about me. I mean, I have my own struggles with ego and I, I've, I've felt I've had to walk a tight rope, like being successful early. Ego is the worst possible thing that you can introduce because the older,

more successful people are just not going to tolerate it. And you're going to make some air that ends whatever run you're on. So it's, I would think probably what I'll talk about next, what I would write about next would be about that not being able to turn off and not being able to stop and pass any point of reasonable utility and that sort of thing. I think that that's a really timely and important conversation for the globe. Yeah, hopefully.

Yeah. We're inundated with noise, internal and external, and having the awareness and skill to get to signal. It feels like it's just this incredible accelerant to being a human, as opposed to doing the human experience. Well, can I run something by you? OK, so I flew in to Los Angeles on Tuesday and I'd sort of done my work and I was done. And there's this place because I went to college in Riverside. There's this place in Riverside that I love running. And I was like, oh, I should go running. I'll like take take off. What else? Instead of working like obviously I still have should go running. I'll like take, take off what I'll

instead of working, like, obviously, I still have stuff to do. I'm going to drive out there, I'm going to go for a run. And it took me two hours to drive out there, right? So me, it's like the monologue in my head is like, am I doing something that's good for myself by like, sort of forsaking work to go do some sort of self-care like positive thing? Or am I actually just trading one form of work for some other obligation that, you know, now everything I should be working on is just backing up. And then I spent two hours to do this thing that took 45 minutes. And, you know, and so I think so it's like that's the debate. And then the third debate on top of that is, are other people thinking about this at all?

Or are they just doing things? Well, yeah, I love all of those. And so I think that there is a healthy portion of people that are just kind of autotons and they're just doing and they're frustrated and they feel a certain way that is very unsettling and high, uh, high exhaustion, but they're not sure why they haven't done the insight work. What you're talking about is having some insight, like, and you're dropping down a couple of layers saying, am I just replacing work? Yeah. And, and then, so if we drop down a couple of layers, uh, those that are searching for insight and understanding, my experience has been that you string your mind with you wherever you go. And so when you do that, if you're going to an oasis, let's just be more extreme. You're going to the most beautiful place in the world to you.

And your mind is still thinking about the place that you just were or the work that you need to do later, you've just poisoned the oasis. Yes. Yeah. I don't think it's more, I don't think it's more complicated than that. Now the work is to be aware of that monologue or dialogue, right. To be aware of that experience and to be kind to find peace so peace is really a powerful word yes yeah inner peace global peace whatever so peace when was the last time you had peace a sense of peace i don't know oh there you go look at the grin look at the grin i don't know i mean i know it's there but i don't know. I mean, I know it's there, but I don't know. What's that like to say? A little embarrassing.

Why does embarrassment come up? Because I feel like I should be able to pick a time and a place. And I wish that I had an answer. Can I tell you a quick story? Yeah. One of my mentors asked me that question. That's how I know the power of it. And I just started, I, my whole insides turned upside down. I was like, Oh my God. Like, how do I answer that? And I think I was like, um,

it was a gift. I was like 17. I said, I don't know. And he says, Mike, what about surfing? I said, no, I'm out there competing. I'm trying to kill it. And so then, then that, that question became, and this is Gary de Blasio. Hey, Gary, how are you? That question really changed me. Sure. Just a question. Yes. And so I'm now excited for you. Well, there's probably no good answer to that question because if you're like, yesterday at 2 p.m., you're probably lying. But maybe not. Why would that not be a great answer? Like, I'm at peace now. Exploring.

I'm at peace driving to Riverside. Like, I was vibing with music. I was feeling that da-da-da. There's a sense of peace. So you can have peace wherever you go and be incredibly productive. Sure. You can have both. You know, that's a good, that's a good point.

Sorry to like turn upside down. It's very helpful. No, it's, I mean, it, I think rhetorical questions and although that's not literally a rhetorical question, but I think I find, and I think stoic philosophy, which is, I'm really interested in it. You said stoic? Yeah. Yeah.

It is a lot about rhetorical questions, sort of asking the questions that you don't want to ask because you don't want to have to answer them. And so the rhetorical question is enough to make you go like, hey, I need to do something about this. Yeah. And that wasn't meant to be like, I got you. It was like a really a framework to say or a question to set up a framework. Like how frequently do you experience a sense of settled in a sense of inner harmony? And it can happen. It can happen anywhere.

It can happen. And so this is okay. Sorry for riffing. Is this, yeah. Are you sure? It might not be great for the people listening. It's good for me. I love it too.

The razor's edge and being in that space with a sense of harmony and peace. When I have that all together and I'm not rattled in my body or rattled in my head and I have all of that together because I've trained my ass off mentally, physically on my craft. Then I can play on the razor's edge and access deep craft. That is where creative expression comes from. And all, so this is a, this is a model of Mike talking about this, like referencing lots of different parts of research that I haven't ever, ever seen pulled together in one theory, right? This is not string theory. It's not that complicated, but so that it's possible. But I, and I think we need to work our asses off for it. Yeah. I needed to do that work. I know that I do. I've been, it's one of those things I think about a lot, but I don't do like, you know,

I'd say most people, for instance, that know about meditation also feel like they need to do it more, but don't do it enough. Yeah. Which is also a problem because I turn, I tend to turn things into work. Right. So I turn them into obligations that I feel guilty about not having the obligation, not doing the obligation is different than like I fuel a passion. Yeah. Right. Like I would imagine, I mean, seriously, right. The work that you've put together, this is why we're talking like you're on the center of some really important stuff. I wanted to know how you got there. And I love it because what I think I hear you saying is I have this script, this curiosity, this like this second hard drive spinning, like you're fitting things together that most people don't fit.

Yeah. And is that, go back to this question, is that exhilarating or exhausting? And you're saying, I think you said both. Yeah, it's definitely both. It's both. Yeah. Okay. Do you think that if you, if you, this is not rhetorical, this is purely curious, like if you were to quiet that hard drive a little bit more that you would, would you lose something special or would you accelerate? If I was being honest, I would say it would just become more focused and I would stop doing other things that maybe I like in the short term, but have

very little long term value. Like, I don't know, I like I write a lot of articles, too. So yeah, you know, I write a lot of articles, or I, you know, I have conversations, I expend a lot of the energy on things that aren't at are more ephemeral than say, writing a book. So if I, if I, you know, like a more wood behind fewer arrows kind of a thing. Say it again? More wood behind fewer arrows. Okay. Have you heard that expression?

It's a great expression. Larry Page, when they were cutting a bunch of divisions at Google and restructuring, that was the strategy he said they were following. It's an old expression, too. But the idea is, you know, instead of shooting like a hundred arrows, you shoot 10 more wood behind fewer arrows. Oh, uh, okay. So more wood. Well, how do you get more wood? I don't know what it means. It's probably one of these ridiculous Zen things, but I think the idea is, uh, uh, Robert Green says in the 40 hours of power, concentrate your forces, right?

So instead of being spread out on a thin line that can easily break, it's really concentrating on the, the kid, the critical key points. Yeah. And in organizational psychology, there's a concept of highest form of leverage. And so understanding how to create the most impact is by using the greatest leverage that you can with the process, the org or the people. It sounds like it's a similar kind of way. Okay, there we go. Less arrows, more wood.

No. More wood behind fewer arrows. More wood behind fewer arrows. More wood behind fewer arrows. Okay. And that's how I would hear that expression. I would write it down and then I would have it somewhere and I might use it at some point. Okay. And I kind of know what it means now, but I would really know what it means before I would use it. Right.

But it's about collecting pieces that can go and be moved in different points. Are you vulnerable when you write? Do you feel vulnerable or do you feel, is it more like an intellectual exercise? It's, it's, it is very vulnerable. It's vulnerable. It's not vulnerable. I'd say writing, writing a book about stoicism, I remember feeling in a very weird place while I was writing it, because there's sort of this, it's sort of this stoic armor that you're putting on. So I felt, I felt less like me. Like I felt less like a human being when I was writing it. And a little bit more of like a, not a character, but like that I was talking about these things theoretically, not from, not necessarily from like

close personal confidence that this is how I act all the time. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Were you putting on Aristotle? Were you putting on Epictetus? Were you putting on... Yeah. I mean, you're drawing from their wisdom and trying to communicate it to yourself and to other people at the same time.

Who's one of your favorite Stoics? Marcus Aurelius is my favorite Stoic. Can I tell you, I don't vibe with him. Really? Yeah. Is, I wonder, I would... A picticus. See, he's the one that I vibe with the least.

I find him to be the most preachy. You know what? And the least human. Yeah, I think that there's such a preachiness about him. The thing that with Marcus, I agree with you. And it's really high-flying, affluentluent or what's not the right word, but like what's the word for the language when it seems ivory tower. Oh, like highfalutin. Yeah. That's how I'm like. Um, yeah, very much so. But so Marcus Aurelius, um, maybe I never really grabbed him, but Marcus

Aurelius, you know, he, I don't think he was enlightened. Really? Yeah. And so, yeah. Can we talk about it? Yeah. Well, why I'm in deep waters now with you study this. So frame of reference, I studied the Stoics as a minor way back. And so, but I was fascinated with, you know, focus on what you can control. Yeah. Which is how I've understood stoicism. That's the essence of stoicism. Yeah. And then, um, so Marcus Aurelius, tell me if I have my model correct. Okay. He was brutal. I'm not sure. Killed a lot of people. He spent, he spent the majority of his reign at war. I'm not sure. I would make, I I would make a very marketed distinction between a war that Marcus Aurelius fought and, say, Julius Caesar pointlessly slaughtering the Gauls,

right? So if you are... I would see it, and this could be projection in the way that Obama's two terms have been defined primarily by war, but I don't see him as a warmonger or someone who enjoys that. Right. Okay. Um, I didn't know that. Right. Because of maybe, maybe I missed the greater context of former war Lords. Yeah. Okay. So how about this thought? This is another thing that rings with me. His complication in relationships seemed to be unpure. Say that again? His complicated relationships. His relationships didn't seem to have purity in them.

Well, Marcus Aurelius is fascinating, and I find this to be immensely human. So he becomes emperor, but he's not literally the heir to the throne, right? The emperor Hadrian sees something in Marcus Aurelius. So he adopts his successor, which is a man named Antonius Pius, who he demands adopt Marcus Aurelius as his heir. So it's this sort of it's like he was chosen to be emperor, right, for something. And, and the first thing that he does when he becomes emperor, is he appoints his stepbrother, co emperor, and his stepbrother was the, he's been somewhat treated unfairly by history, but his stepbrother was very complicated. And maybe a drunk, maybe not, maybe a pleasure lover, you know, not Marcus Aurelius.

And yet there's no real evidence that he ever resented his brother, that he ever tried. The idea that you would be given unlimited power and the first thing you would do is give half that power to another human, I find interesting, especially to a flawed human being. I find that admirable. Yet, he appoints his own son, Commodus, to succeed him. And Commodus is like Joaquin Phoenix's character in Gladiator almost doesn't do Commodus justice in terms of how terrible he actually was. So you have maybe the only philosopher king to ever exist in Marcus Aurelius, and his son is one of Rome's worst tyrants. So I find it complicated. It's like, wait, here's this great man who had an effed up son. I find that very interesting.

That's the part that you connect with the most? I mean, I don't connect with his effed up son. I connect with him being a flawed human being. Yeah. I love that thought. And can you talk about his relationship with Christianity? Um, yeah. So first, and then the other, the other thing is the rumors were that he had an unfaithful wife. Um, and so it's like, and maybe his relationship wasn't great. But his relationship with Christianity was as the emperor of Rome, and the empire saw Christianity as a threat. He sentenced numerous Christians to death. And there when you read meditations, and also when you read any Romans, any of the Romans, there is an acceptance of immense cruelty and as though they were helpless to do anything about it, right? And I think one of the weaknesses of Stoicism is it's

sort of resignation instead of empowerment over certain things. And so I would imagine he saw, I don't, I, my projection is he did not enjoy this, but hey, this is the duty of the emperor and I'm going to do it. So those are some of the things that I like giving away half, I feel, okay. Giving away to my degenerate brother, half of the power of the kingdom. That's crazy. It is a little nuts. And then raising a son that is undisciplined, let's be kind that, that lacks some sort of, um, something. So, you know, and,

and I get, I get the, let me see if I get the other side, which is like, hold on. I got a big job now, you know? And so there's this quick, I'm going to pull out of this for just a second. And then we'll come right back is that there is a there is a question that he's going to be on a future podcast, Dr. Amir Vokshar. He said, are you looking to make a deep impact on few or a broader impact on many? I love that question. And so it seems like Marcus Aurelius might have been a broader impact on many, missing the impact that he's having on his immediate. I think so. And look, if Stoicism at its core is saying you control yourself, you don't control other people, did he accept certain things in other people that in a modern context we would say, Hey, your kids are your responsibility. Like these are not, you know, he's not just is what he is. He's what you make him or you contributed to this

fatherhood by abdication. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, there, there is a fine line between, um, you know, it's the, the line between what you control and what you don't control is nuanced. And you can't just say, oh, this is like, I don't know. I guess it is interesting. I think you have to, there's a lot of hypocrisy in the Stoics that are fascinating. Seneca is one of Rome's richest men. He was Nero's private tutor and mentor. And that I relate to that in the human sense of having an you work with flawed clients there. You they're amazing at what they do and you want to help them with that. And yet you can't you can't fix them or make them what you want them to be. And so I related to that part of it. And then also, you know, you have to ask yourself, where are the flaws or the problems in the philosophy that allowed you to continue working with this horrible murderer? It's interesting. And, you know, what are the, what's the historical context that allows for some of these things that, you know, what would,

there's a lot of Southerners, you know, that I admire that were pro-slavery, right? That has not, you know, it, you can look at someone like Thomas Jefferson and be fascinated with the brilliance of the man and then be utterly perplexed that he could be writing the Declaration of Independence and then, you know, controlling this woman who he loved, but was also his slave. Like it, it is impossible to understand the historical context in which other people live in to, after a certain point. Yeah. Very cool. Wow. That's a good dive. I mean, I fascinated by that stuff. And I think it's sad that the Stokes are not as explored in the way that you have dissected and deconstructed other unimportant topics.

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without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's Caldera Lab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash FindingMastery. So when we're talking about others, Stoics in general, what is the difference for you when you're talking about them and when you're talking about yourself? Did you notice the difference from the first part of our conversation to now? I mean, I'm much more comfortable talking about something that's not me, I would say. Because it's outside me and it's clearer cut. And I guess, I don't know.

I think when I look at the Stoics, I mean, the Stoics talk about this. It's like they're always talking about the ideal. They're not talking about who they are. They're saying this is how it should be done. And that every day we're trying to get a little bit closer to that. So I think when a lot of people, like when someone reads Marcus Aurelius and they go, this is all great, but he executed some Christians. I don't see the conflict. I don't see that as undermining the philosophy as much as

it is. That's how hard it is to, that it's incredibly hard to live the philosophy when, if the standards are high enough. Yeah. And so there's this question that I asked in one of the contemplative studies courses that I took took and the question to the professor was well you know what there's some really good stuff over here in buddhism there's some great insights on confucianism and zoroastrianism that part about it and then christianity and man there's some gems over here and then judaism and then what about the stoics and the the greeks and so he stopped me and he said, yeah. And he said, he paused.

And this is Dr. Zanka. And he says to me, do you think that you're smarter than the founder of each one of those that you can create all of the wisdoms and make it uniquely yours? I said, oh shit, there's a challenge there now. And so I'm vibing with your, your thought. Like when you go long and deep in one and you hold it to the highest standard,

there's probably going to be a lot of good. Yeah. Although I don't like, I don't, I, I hate that about philosophy where, um, it's not a religion, right? Like accepting one tenant is not, it's not like, oh, look, you got to accept Jesus into your heart and then do these things and then you go to heaven. It's like, these were the smartest people in that time focused on one discipline coming up with some ideas. And actually, you know, Seneca, Stoicism and Epicureanism are presented now as diametrically opposed philosophies. But yet when you read Seneca, he quotes Epicurus all the time. And he actually says, like, I don't mind quoting a bad author if the line is good. And I love that. Like, to me, it's like, these are all dead white guys.

And they knew as much as they could possibly know at that time. We've made a few advancements since then. I think they honed in on a number of central truths and that science probably cannot improve on many of those truths. But in other areas, we can. And I feel no compunction about picking and choosing the practical wisdom that I want that will make me better. First of all, I don't know what compunction means. I don't even think twice or feel guilty about picking the parts of stoicism I like and ignoring predestination and some of the other silly things. Got it. Okay. So that thought that I had a long time ago, like I'd like to take it. I think he should have encouraged it. No, no, no. He didn't. He said go long and deep in one and explore that to the tens.

And you'll figure out how nuanced and thoughtful those founders or those enlightened ones were. Yeah. And so that was the idea. Got it. So cool. Okay. Do you have a spiritual framework? I mean, I guess if I picked one, it would probably be stoicism or some moderation of stoicism. I'm not religious or I wouldn't identify as a Buddhist or something. Yeah. And is there afterlife? Is there something outside of our physical form? I don't think that there is, but I think I, I, I like Pascal's wager.

Do you know what that is? No. Pascal's wager is basically God may or may not exist on the off chance that he does. It's worth being a good person. I've heard the argument. I didn't know Pascal's wager. Who's Pascal? He was a philosopher and, and, and I guess a Christian philosopher, but I, I, that's, that's my thinking. So I would say that this life is more than enough to handle. And, um, you should focus almost entirely on that. And on the upside that there's some other thing. That's great. I do like I do like the inherent humility in just being like, I don atomic structure, there's so much to know in the in the heavens, meaning the skies above us. Sure. Like, how can we begin to know? And so having that humility and curiosity and holding both of those together. But then, okay, so why do good? Why do, and good meaning doing like honorable by others? Why not be more like Genghis Khan? Sure. I think first from a utilitarian perspective, it's just- Are you a utilitarian?

To a certain degree. I mean, I think doing bad, obviously if you're doing bad on the scale of It's just are you utilitarian? I have the least amount of respect for that I find to be the most dishonest or the most duplicitous or, you know, selfish or whatever. I don't feel like it's working out for them, even if it's like six, even if they are massively successful. Like, I mean, I I trade places with them completely? So it's like people will say with ego, like, well, isn't ego working out with Donald Trump or something like that? When you say ego, do you mean ego is the way? No, no. What I'm saying is ego is the enemy. Ego is the enemy. The title of your new book. Because I wrote a book about how ego is bad and it causes, it's self-destructive and people go,

but how could you say that when Donald Trump might win the presidency? And I guess my response is, would you trade places with Donald Trump? Like, is that it? It doesn't seem like even if he does win one, I think it would be bad for everyone in the world. But I think it would be bad for him most of all. Like, I don't I don't see Donald Trump and go like that dude loves being alive. I say it must be incredibly awful to be inside that human being. So you've done a deep dive on ego and there's lots of ways, at least three that I can think of where people describe or define ego. And can you talk about the way that you operationalize that word? Yeah, I'm not defining it in the medical sense

or definitely not the Freudian sense, which I don't even totally understand. Ego, superego, and id, that stuff? Yeah, the more I read about that, the more confused I get. But I'm talking about it in the loose collection of traits that a normal person would define as ego. Arrogance, selfishness, endless competitiveness, delusion, overconfidence, that sort of thing. Did you ever read, who was it, Robert Bly maybe?

Iron John? No, Shadow. Night in Rusty Armor. Did Robert Bly write that? I do like Robert Bly. Yeah, so maybe I have the author wrong, but have you ever read the book Night in Shiny Armor? It's a gem. Okay.

Yeah, it's a gem. And so some of the central thoughts around there is that we're all like knights. And some of us have this really big armor. And we spend a lot of time shining it up. And that's exhausting. Yeah. And it's heavy to carry around this armor. And we got to shine it and look right. And then when we become tired of shining it,

it gets rusty and it's still heavy and it's harder to move. And so we become, it's just this beautiful storyline about, um, the cost of the ego, you know, and his, um, storyline was that the, um, armor is our ego. Okay. Yeah. And so, um, I think you'd enjoy it. No, that sounds great. You know, in light of your recent book, but, um, okay. So teach us on ego, teach us, um, what you've come to understand. So, and this ties back to the figuring out the structure. I originally, before you teach. Yeah. Yeah. Before you teach why ego, why would you, why did you go down and research and have a, uh, questions and, and have this rumination about ego and then tell us what you've come to learn. Well, I mean, it's a process. So originally I wanted to write a book about the narrative fallacy, the way we tell ourselves stories about how we came to wherever we are

and the way that these stories often mislead us. And fallacy meaning that it's not an accurate story. It's just the story. Life is much more complicated than whatever the narrative you've made up for how you came from where you came from. We gloss over all the unsexy parts and focus mostly on the self-serving parts. That was the original premise. My publisher didn't really like it. And then there's this wonderful essay by Paul Graham, who's this brilliant writer and startup investor. And it's called Keep Your Identity Small. And he was saying the sort of root of all conflict and inability to change is that people's identity is caught up in whatever they're doing. And so they can't see

things objectively. So that was the idea. And then I found that wouldn't write. Like I couldn't figure out what that book would look like and how it would be interesting to readers. And whenever I would read stories about people who keep their identity small, they weren't that interesting. They were all sort of the same. Like I would say, like all stories of humble people sound exactly the same and no one's like, Oh, I want to be like that so much. So I realized that I had to come at it from the other angle. Like what is the opposite of that? And why is that bad? So ego and, the phrase ego is the enemy came came to me, I don't know if I'd heard it somewhere, or if I made it up, or what, but that I was like, that, that's what I'm talking about. So you know, that gets written down, I still have the note card,

where I wrote that down. And then what came to me is the three part structure of the book, which is that every person is at one of three phases and we're, you know, fluidly rotating between them, but that we're either aspiring to do something, we're successful at whatever we're doing, or we're experiencing like adversity or difficulty or failure. And that ego manifests itself differently at each one of those phases, but it's the main problem at each one of those phases. So now I have the book. And now I have to.

So that came to me. I remember I was in the American Apparel parking lot when that came to me. And it was like, oh, okay. So now I have to go fill in these three buckets, basically. And it just happened around that time. I, I just finished obstacle and I'd been the director of marketing at American apparel. That was my job. And so we, we got to get to that because that's, you were like this rise to, to influence at an early age. So let's put a pause on that. I just recognizing that that's an important part of your

journey and then, and then back. So for people who you don't need to get into details of it, but American Apparel decided to fire the founder and CEO of the company who'd been a mentor of mine. And the company had basically gone into a tailspin and I got called in to, I was writing my book, so I wasn't working there full time anymore. You were writing obstacles the way I just finished obstacle. Yeah. But I didn't live in LA anymore and I was a writer who also basically advised this company and they called me in during the restructuring and they wanted me to take on a much bigger role. So it was like I was going to write this book about ego and then one of the people I admired

most in this world imploded and took his entire company down with him. So it was very much, um, sort of my intellectual work intersecting with my personal life and professional life at the same time. What, um, what did that mean to you when he imploded and he was a mentor? I mean, so when someone you look up to and when someone who like typically I find with mentors, they want to work with you because they see something of themselves in you. So when you see someone who saw something in you go into this dark, destructive place and become essentially a different person over time, you have. I mean, what I took from that is like, what do I have that's like that? And how does that, how do I make sure that doesn't happen to me? See, that's what I'm talking about, right? What you just did, that reflection and internal awareness is rare. That's the thing that I think, um, you just said it and we did. Okay. Now I'm really

excited because I think that that process that you just walked us through, walked me through is that when something happens, you also have awareness of like, how, how would I be influenced if this was me? Yeah. Right. Like, what is it in me that can also do that? I think I try to understand, like, and, and obviously this wasn't a surprise to me that this happened. I'm not saying I predicted it, but it was a process that developed over a course of several years. And so I just always tried to understand what it must be like to run a company that has 12,000 employees and that you're the creative genius behind. And like, I was, I'm fascinated by those people. Cause I, I think that I'm similar to them, but also I think I lack something that they have. And so I'm fascinated by that. Do you have thoughts about what it is that

you're working on enhancing? No, no. I mean, I think it's like it there's there's some difference like you're you like if tom brady was sitting here you would be able to relate to him but you would also there's just where he's been and what he's done and whatever that intensity is i feel like takes them to a place that i've never been so i don't know what that's like. I understand. Okay. That's what I'm like, like the idea, like I have, I have my own company, but it's a very small company compared to this billion dollar brand that this other person and what's, what's that difference. I'm interested in that. So let's talk about the dark side. Okay. Um, what is, what have you experienced as being or recognized as being the dark side? What has been the cost is another way of thinking about pursuing insight, pursuing, um, writing that, that is making a difference in

people's lives. Like is there a cost? What's the dark side for them? For you? Oh, what's my dark side? And then, and then let's do them if you want. Yeah, I guess. I mean, I think the dark side for me is, is one, not being able to turn it off. Like that deprives me of being... Actually, I think with all these people, what you see is that the thing that makes them so good and so focused, and I would apply this to myself, also, ironically or paradoxically, deprives them of enjoying the fruits of that labor, right? Fully, the way that a different person might envision that it would feel like, like Nick Saban, I think is interesting. I read this interesting

biography of him recently. And it was like, he has built these franchises, but instead of reveling in having built them, he wants to go to another one or he, he's, he wins the championship and all he can think about is the next one. And is that, is that a higher level of thinking or is it actually a lower level of thinking? And I don't, I'm like, all I wanted to do was write one book, you know, like, you know what I mean? Like I just wanted to be a writer and now I've written four is, it because I didn't – is what keeps you going your inability to enjoy that thing fully? What's been the biggest cost for you to pursue your way of living? I mean it's isolating I guess, right?

It's your – there's fewer and fewer people who can relate to what it's like you go on a diet, all of a sudden you, before you go on a diet, there's no conflict with you and the other people around you in your life. You start eating healthy. All of a sudden, now there's two different ways of doing things. And that is, that can create conflict and isolation. How do you manage the isolation or how do you work with it? I think you have to seek out people who are like you and find them and connect with them. I think that's a huge part. And then I think it was also, um, uh,

there's this Bertrand Russell quote that I have an ego where he says like the first sign of a impending nervous collapse is a, is the belief that your work is terribly important. And I've had to do that too. Because here's the problem is that because your thing is so important to you and so few people do it, you can start to feel like you're superior to everyone else. And that's what causes the isolation. And you have to realize that what you're doing is not that special. Yeah. There's the same mentor that I was talking about. He's shaped a lot for me was Mike,

you need to hold yourself in two ways. And this is like him being directive to me. He's not always as directive. He says, hold that that you matter and then also remember that you're just this speck of dust yeah you know right like that you're just this in the eons of time yeah so holding both of those in consciousness i think creates um vastness and openness and humility as a and at the same time never at the cost of self-efficacy. Fancy word for like, like, okay, well I am where my feet are. Right. And so let me, let me be here. I mean, the Stoics are so good at that. Like all my favorite Stoic quotes are about that. Like Marcus, there's one for Marcus Aurelius where he's saying, um, he lists all the emperors that

have come before him. And he's like, how many people even remember any of these names? And they were the most important, powerful people in the world. So he's like reminding himself of that. He also says like Alexander the Great and his mule driver both died and were buried in the same ground. I love that one. And then there's one from the poet Juvenal and he says, the world could not contain Alexander, but a coffin could. I love that. That's really cool. Yeah. Yeah.

Look at your grin. It's so good. The world was not big enough for Alexander the Great, but a coffin was sufficient, I think is the line. If people are interested in Stoicism, where would you point them? I know you're going to say Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. I would say the Gregory Hayes translation of Marcus Aurelius. How many translations are there? It feels like hundreds. Yeah, it's crazy. But the right, like, do not get the free one off the internet because it's going to be

day. It's reading what people, what Marcus Aurelius would have sounded like to someone in 1850 is very different to how he would sound in 2016. So I like Gregory Hayes of Marx I like the Penguin classic translation of Letters of a Stoic, which is Seneca. There's a great book called On the Shortness of Life, which is by Seneca, which is amazing. There is The Discourses of Epictetus, which is pretty great. And then I'm, you added the pretty in there. What? It's pretty great. No, no, it's, it's, it's not, it's not where I would start because it's intimidating. Right. Like, um, but then also, uh, also Tim Ferriss published an audio book version of the letters of a stoic, which, uh,

people have loved and I would recommend and then i'm what i don't like is that there's no introduction to all the stoics there's no book of all the stoics and so i i've worked on it it's going to come out in a few months but it's like a daily reader of stoicism and you read one cool stoic thought per day from one of the stoics cool and where will we find that it's called the daily stoic and it'll come out in October, November. And it's, uh, you can also just go to daily stoic.com. It's not, it's not made yet, but that's what it will be. Nice. Okay. Brilliant. Okay. Um, let's see if we can tap into, um, how you get in your own way. Okay. Okay. So do you have a sense of how you

get in your way? A lot of ways. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Give us a couple. I'll say one, one of the good and bad parts about writing is that there's a record of all the things that you've said or done. So when I look back at writing that I did when I'm 20, I cringe, like I don't like the certainty in the writing. And I think as I've gotten better, I've gotten ironically less certain. And because I think ego is certain that it's right and everyone else is wrong and that it knows better than everyone else. And so I think I've gotten in my own way, in my writing and in my business, being certain that I just know better. And I don't always know better. And so I think that's a big one that I'm conscious of.

I mentioned always say less than necessary from Robert Greene. I've noticed like I'll be in conversations with people who are much smarter than me. Instead of listening, I'll talk the whole time. And I've tried to work on that. And so it's like, I wonder what I missed out on in those interactions by sucking all the air out of it. When I'm in those conversations and I do the same, I realized afterwards that I don't think any of us are better because of it yeah right right i don't feel any better no and they can't you know like yeah i i respect that and i was telling you when i had lunch with rick rubin he was he was i asked him some questions and he would answer like i don't

know a lot and i really respected that um and i don't do that enough either. I think that's another, like, the idea that you don't have to pull an answer out of your ass is a freeing thought. You can just say, like, I don't know or I don't know enough to answer. But when you're supposed to talk for a living, you can get very used to, like, I gave a talk last night and people had questions at the end, it, it would be bad form to just not answer the question. So you can carry that over to the rest of your life. And I have tried to work on that as well. So, uh, you know, I've studied like psychology in the mind and I've done a lot of that deep research work. So have you, and we've taken different paths to get there. What is that like for you to have this conversation with somebody who, you know, knows some stuff, doesn't pretend

to know much, but knows some stuff like, well, how do you manage that? It's the most flattering, awesome part of it. Like, and, and I guess this might go to the validation thing that we were talking about earlier, but like, obviously it's nice when a book sells well, but the coolest thing for me from ego and from obstacle, it started to come in and she's like, I'm writing a book about what I think is true based on my research and my limited experience. And then, so when people at an immensely high level, like a football coach or someone who has like medical training in this thing like you says, hey, you're more right than wrong or like, hey, this part was helpful to me. That is more gratifying to me than selling or whatever because like it's just – it's what I was hoping for I guess.

Oh. So the hope is still validation. I mean, not completely, but the hope is that you're right. Got it. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Good clarity. And how can you find, like, there's obviously sales are not a metric of being right or the secret would be true. Yeah.

You know, so, so it's like. Oh my God, that's so good. You're right. Yeah. So, you know, so I think, look, I, I'm, I'm a capitalist and I do this for a living. So I don't, I don't like that argument where people go like, Oh yeah, mine hasn't sold, but that's cause it's like too smart for everyone. You know, like where people try to justify obscurity with superior equates obscurity with superiority i'm not in that but it's you want a mix of reaching out like normal people and a scale and that but then also i think elite opinion matters and okay yeah Yeah. I'm right there with you. How do you, it's like a cross validation,

cross sectional kind of, you know, at a deeper layer. How do you, how do you let it rip? How do you let go? How do, what do you do?

Um, cause you're really intense, dude. I am. Yeah. I've picked, someone has to tell me that, like,

I don't feel intense. Really? Yeah. But I've, I've gotten it enough times that, like, I don't feel intense. Really? Yeah. But I've, I've gotten it enough times that I know I'm obviously intense. Right. Yeah. Um, uh, well, and that, and that's the struggle is that some of the things that I think I used to do to let rip have become more obligation, but like I run a lot, like I find a lot of joy in that. I, I swim a lot. I find a lot in that reading is,

is both work and pleasure for me. Um, I live like on a farm, so I have animals and I, I can find that being around them is one of the few times that I'm not checking my phone and I'm experiencing joy and peace and pleasure. Yeah. It's funny that, so it's like an, um, an alpha experience when, yeah. So an alpha, meaning an alpha male, female, um, but animals are alpha, not of us, but alpha of being present. Yes. They're more present. Most animals, there's nervous animals, but most animals are just, they'll tail will wag. Yeah. Their tongue will hang out and they'll look in the eyes and look around you and just want to play. And so they are better at being present than we are. They don't have to do anything to be anything. That's right. And so that was back to our, I love the link because that now that's back to our

beginning of our conversation about being versus doing and the importance of getting both of those things right. And maybe we begin to have more frequency of harmony between those two. So is there a word or phrase that captures your philosophy? I mean, the phrase that I try to focus on is the stoic one of you don't control what happens to you, you control how you respond. And I try to think about that on a, on a daily basis. That's I I've yet to, I've yet to encounter a situation in which that made things worse, right? Thinking that way made things worse. I remember the first time I was exposed to that. I loved the word respond versus react. Sure. There's so much more of a, uh, not, not pensive, but a thoughtfulness in response. Yeah.

Like a preparation. Yeah. And where we react. There's, you know, that's good. There's a time and place for reacting. But I love the eloquence of response. Yeah. Is there a word that cuts to the center of what you understand most?

I don't know. I'm not sure that there is. There you go again. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, did that, was that freeing? I don't know. No, I really don't. I really don't know. Um, how about, is there a word or phrase that cuts the center of who you are? I mean, I think if, if I was being honest, I think intense would be one of those words. And that's something I both appreciate and struggle with. Okay. All right. Is there a particular point in time? And I want to be, I want to honor our time, but is there a particular point in time when you realize what you're most afraid of? I mean, I think recently, as I've started to do some of this work, I'm worried that if I don't check some of these impulses and do some of the work that we're talking about, I can suck. If this is the thing that I love most and I get the most pleasure and satisfaction out of, but I also contain within me the ability to suck the joy and satisfaction out of it.

And that those two things can be on a crash course. I fear that a lot. Because this is like, it's not as if in being successful early is a wonderful blessing. But I'm looking at theoretically 60 more years, you know, 50 more years of this. I don't have any other things that I want to do. Like I want to do this forever or as long as I can. And that I need to have some of the discipline and do the work or I could end up a very miserable person. I think you're right.

I think that that fits for me, too. Yeah. Well, well said. Okay. How about this? Respond to, you know, heavy responses, light responses, one words, many words, confidence, using some sort of imagery, you know, of all the mental skills that we can use to rebuild and refine our craft, which ones are the ones that are most important to you? I think the ability to think strategically, like to think more than one step in advance and to see how things are interconnected, I think is a highly underrated skill. And Robert Green talks about being in tactical hell, which is where he says most people exist. They're just reacting to everything around them.

They don't have a plan. And so it's like, if you don't know what you're trying to do, you don't know what to say no to, you don't know what to say yes to. You're just, you are reacting. And so I think the ability to think strategically is the one that matters the most. Brilliant. Okay. Street smart or analytical? This is about you. I actually, I don't know if they're that different. I think what street smarts are is the ability to think analytically in a pragmatic construct. So you're going to say yes to both.

I'll say yes. I like them both. Do you prefer slow paced environments or fast? I prefer being the fast paced person in a slow paced environment. Big fish in a small pond. Oh my God. Okay. Rule follower or risk taker? follower rule follower if you had a chance

to go to mars you'd be the first person to go 50 chance no interest no interest okay um need for how come wait i don't know it's just not that interesting i feel like like uh all these people that want to live forever i don't know i i i guess like it's like I don't see any old people that are like, you know, when they talk to like a 110-year-old woman or whatever, she's never like, there's not enough time. You know, like she seems fine. I think it's the same thing with us going to Mars. Like I feel like we've got enough here.

I'm not like there's nothing that Mars holds for me that I need. Need for control? Is it high, low, medium? Pretty high. Pretty high? Does that come from an anxious mind, or does you feel like you're good when you're leading? It comes from an anxious mind, but also a need for things to make sense. And sometimes I feel like if they don't make sense, I feel very uncomfortable.

And I feel like when I'm not in control, they make less sense. Got it. Okay. Um, intellectually competitive, high, medium, low. What does that mean? Like if I said something silly or stupid or didn't make sense, would you say Mike seriously? No, I don't think I would. Okay. So if we're talking politics and I say, um, something very different than, than you thought, would you compete with those ideas? I don't know. I definitely don't like people getting away with saying dumb things, if that's what you're asking. Yes.

So then intellectually competitive, yes. Critical. Are you easy to be around um i guess it would depend on who you ask yeah like if you're smart you're easy to be around but if you're yes pretend to be smart are you tough to be around yeah so do you have any friends that pretend to be smart uh one of the nice parts about living where i live and i don't mean this in a condescending sense is like like my neighbors they don't give a crap about any of the nice parts about living where I live, and I'm don't mean this in a condescending sense is like, like my neighbors, they don't give a crap about any of the things that I do.

They're just like normal people. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And I've, I did when I lived in New York, I've lived in Los Angeles. I really like being away from some of that stuff.

So I like being friends with normal people who are not like me, not normal. Yes. And I mean that in a bad way for me. Okay. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, do you make fast decisions or slow decisions? Fast decisions. And then, uh, the cost of that is mistakes. And then are you self-critical or more self-positive? So both self-critical as a, yeah. Both. Both. And then of others, critical of others, positive of others?

Both, but probably more critical than I should be. Okay. All right. There you go. Pressure comes from? Within. You're really clear about that. Yeah.

Yeah. What does pressure feel like for you um it feels it it feels like i'm not if i don't do something it's all gonna fall apart yeah i like that it's all gonna fall, meaning life right now's a little bit of that imposter syndrome of like, if they find out it's all going to go away and you have to keep doing, doing, doing, so that doesn't happen. I wish it could, like, I think I've got like, so when ego came out, I think I'd finally gotten to a place where it was like, look, I've already sold my

next two books. I'm not going to not be able to be an author anymore if this doesn't work. Right. But on your first go around, that fear is there. And so I wish I could get I'm working on getting more like this is who I am. I'm good at this stuff. I can I can count on that no matter what happens. Love it. OK, so can I, I heard something. Could I, could I offer a thought for you? Yeah. Are you sure? Yes.

You're certain? Uh, yeah. The phrase that you said is now that I've gotten more success, I have some sort of confidence. Yeah. Right. Okay. Can I pull on that with you? So the idea that success comes before confidence is a massive

trap. Okay. And that is how we teach us in America for certainly, uh, for certainly, uh, certainly in, in, in America, meaning that I grew up in, in the American system and so did you. And so that's, that's how we talk. Okay. We never, we never say that that accurately, like have success, then be confident, but that's how people are rewarded. Good job. And then there's an inflation of I'm okay. The doing matters more than the being where some cultures you matter because you breathe. Right. And it's really simple. Okay. Um, and so the trap is that, uh, as long as I do good, I can feel good. As long as I do exceptional, I can be confident. And then what happens when the most recent information is that it wasn't good?

Right. Does that mean that confidence is shattered? For most people, that is what happens. So the work is, can you flip that? And not in an egotistic way or in a way to build an ego. OK, but can you flip and own the mechanics of confidence and then from that observe the outcome, which is success, failure, mistakes, hesitation, commitment, whatever. So if flipping that model around, I found to be, um, it does a couple of things. One, it increases stability.

Sure. And then with that stability, that base, that frame, that foundation, it increases the ability to create. That makes sense. Yeah. And so, um, the mechanics of confidence are not complicated and we can, we can all do that work. And so just flipping that model, uh, you know, maybe we can play with that together, like offline, but you know,

like the idea of not needing success to feel good. Yeah. And that's sort of what I mean that I've gotten to a point where I have a bit of a baseline. I don't, I didn't have it as much before because you know, you don't know whether you can make it or do this hard thing, but once you've done it long enough you start to realize that okay how it goes in this particular situation doesn't change the underlying reality

that i know how to do this or i have done this right there with you okay um it all comes down to work like doing the work doing the work or work period. But I mean, it comes, it comes down to whether you do the work or not. I like that. Um, if I had a chance to do it over again, what, what do you mean? Would I do it over again? I don't know how you, yeah, sure you would. You win? Yes. It's been good. Success is? Success is being able to do what you want. There's a lot of freedom in that. I think that's the one thing I've found about money. And I try to think about a lot is you find that often the people who have the most money are the least free.

And I don't think about it a lot is you find that often the people who have the most money are the least free. And I don't want that. Love. Love is all there is. Was that tongue in cheek? No, no. I mean, at the end of the day, that's the best thing that there is. Yeah. I second that as well.

My vision? My vision, what? How do you play with that phrase? My vision? I don't know. I am? These are all very revealing are very revealing quite like very revealing questions i feel like i think so yeah yeah i think that um there's no right and wrong you know and it's like a the way

i think about these questions is that it's almost like a force function to say okay how do i answer that right now on this day today you know based on all the time i've spent the man i want to be the person i have been more most consistently like who am i yeah like if i if i was i would say two answers i would say like if i was talking about how i feel i would say i i am tired i feel tired um just because it's been a long few months and then i would say if i was just more talking about who I am, I would say, like, I'm a writer. That's that's what I identify as. That's how I look at the world. And and can I ask you a question about writing?

So there's going to be a place in time where I will anchor my words in a structure and then I'll, I'll put a period at the end and then somebody will bind it and then, then it'll be kind of gone. Yes. Right. And it's like, there's no more editing, there's no more adjusting, there's no more tinkering and it's, it's baked so to speak. What is that like? That is a very nerve-wracking experience because, well, I guess actually to go back a tiny bit, I think there's a difference, too, between like, are you a writer or did you write something?

Right. And so there's lots of people that write great books that are not writers. And I don't mean to say that less of them, but it's like, you know, some brilliant, brilliant person writes a memoir, are they a writer? Or is it just their story in writing? You know, so I think for a writer, that is a tough, a very tough position to be in, because you've now been deprived of the thing that you do. And you have to sit and wait for some external judgment or verdict about whether you did it or not. Like, obviously, you've got to be self contained and satisfied with whether you feel

like you did what you could do. But then you want to, it's like you're waiting for the numbers on opening weekend, or you're waiting for the feedback from the test screening, you just you don't know what other people think of it. And it's a lie to think that that doesn't matter. How important is that part of it for, for you or for most to start with you? I mean, I've been lucky enough that none of the books that I've written have never not landed. So I don't know what the, the worst part of that potential spectrum of things is, but I mean, I've written articles that people hated and, you know, have been read one time or whatever. And that, that's a, it's both a frustrating feeling, but then also intellectually curious one. Cause you're like, why? Like, what is it? Right. You

can take from that a lot of lessons. Uh, so I think, I think it's, you're trying, what you want to know is whether you're right or you're writing these things because you think that it's true and that it says something about the human experience or that it would be helpful to people. And then at some point, somebody has to tell you, like you have to hear whether that landed or not. Okay. All right. Is there a habit or a thought that you can pass on to us either about being a writer or substitute writing for chess playing, substitute it for homemaking, substitute it for entrepreneurship, like using writing as the thing that you've spent so much time? Is there a habit or a thought that you could hope people could have or do? I mean, I think the big one for writing is,

is like, people think it's about the words, but really it's about what they're saying. So it's like people go like, people want a book. They don't want what's in a book, right? Like I'm saying writer, like someone's like, Oh, I'd like to have a book because it will give me speaking gigs or make me feel important or I'll be rich or whatever. They're not saying like, I have to write a book because I have these words that are ready for a book. So I think that's the big thing is have something to say. And if you have that, like there's this quote from Orwell where he's saying like, writing is such a miserable experience. He says it's like being stricken with a long illness. If you don't, if you don't have, if you're not driven by some demon, you're not going to go through that.

And so it's probably true for other things too. It's not, it's not like, oh, it, it would be nice to blank is not a sufficient is not sufficient. It's like I have to blank. I love it. And what you just said was, um, Oh, how did I do that? I just lost it. Thank God I can press rewind. Um, what did you just say about not the have to was brilliant, but the part before that, long illness yes yeah yes yeah orwell's saying yeah that writing a book is such a miserable experience it's like you have to be

driven by a demon to get through it because like at any point it would be it would be easier to quit so why aren't you quitting it can't be like like people be like oh books are a great business card that's like a saying in non-fiction it's totally true it's probably true for fiction if you want to be like a writing professor or something but like nobody works on something for two years because it'd be a nice business card how i don't know i'm sorry if this is like rude but the amount of garbage in, in, in nonfiction, I, and it all kind of hovers around, I don't know what the, like the self-help pop psychology books. Yeah. There's a lot of them. It is bad. It is, but, but that's because they're doing, they're doing it because they want what they

think a book can get them rather than they feel like they have to do that thing and so it i mean not it's frustrating in the short term but in the long term nobody remembers that stuff i think is what you have to remind yourself of cool very cool okay thank you thanks for having this has been uh awesome yeah has it yeah how come I, well, one, I've never been asked most of these questions before, but to, um, I mean, obviously I hope the answers were nice for people listening, but they were mostly nice for me. Yeah. And me too. Yeah. So I've appreciated our time. And then kind of the, the, really the last question is how do you articulate, I don't want to use the word define, but I am, we're looking for some kind of definition, but how do you articulate i don't want to use the word define but i am we're looking for some kind of definition but how do you articulate the concept of mastery

you know what i someone asked me this the other day and i liked my answer so i'm going to use it i was saying it's it's it's fulfilling all your potential right whatever you're capable of and then some so it's like like it's that it's like you know people know that you're talented or they know that you're good and then you do something and they're like wow where did that come from that's like so there's being good and then the mastery is if you get those things and i think a master does that all the time right whereas like maybe i've had a couple fleeting instances of it in career, and I hope to one day have that at my fingertips. Do you think that you're early?

Are you on the path of mastery? Is that valuable to you, that concept? Yeah, I would say that I think that I've written. I hope to write many books. I don't know, I have no idea what they would be, but I would hope that all of these are warming up to something that might, that will come the right place at the right time. And I mean, obviously I'm very proud of what I've done and I hope that they last,

but I would like to think that maybe there's something that I've not even thought about yet. And that would be like, I look at some, like Michael Lewis is one of my favorite nonfiction writers and he wrote all these amazing books and they're really great. And then the financial crisis happens and he is the greatest living American storyteller about finance and business.

And there, no one else could have written the big short. It was so good. It's so good. Did you like the movie? I liked the movie. I thought it was really, I thought it was an interesting take. And I thought it, it brought the message to a larger audience that wouldn't have read the book, but you read the book and you're just like, how could someone write something so interesting about something so boring? And it's because he wrote interesting things about interesting things previous. Like it's because he wrote interesting things about interesting things previous. Like it's, it's easier to write about baseball. I imagine than it is the financial

crisis. Love this conversation, brother. Yeah. I hope we do it again. Please. Yeah, I really do. And, um, where can we find out more about what you're up to, what you're doing? You know, your book is launching right now. Yeah, it's out. Yeah, so how can we, just tell us how to get in touch with you. Yeah, just all my books are on Amazon. I would encourage people to start with those.

And then Ryan Hall. Amazon. Amazon, any bookstore. Okay, list all the books. The Obstacle is the Way. Yep. Ego is the Enemy. Trust Me, I'm Lying.

And I wrote a book called Growth Hacker Marketing, which is about startup marketing. And then you can go to my website, which is ryanholiday.net. ryanholiday.net. And then social media? At ryanholiday. Spell holiday. H-O-L-I-D-A-Y.

And then making sure that we can do something fun. Can we come up with a little, after this, can we come up with a little contest? Okay. Yeah. And then, you know, would you be willing to write a little note, ship out a book or something? Yeah, of course. Yeah. So let's find something to compete for. Do you have anything in mind right now? Yeah. Neither do I. Okay. Neither do I really, but we'll figure something out and like, you know, okay. Anyways. All right. So everyone, thank you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for paying attention.

Thank you for being with Ryan and I in this conversation and appreciate the momentum that you're creating. And you can find more information. If you're new to this conversation, you can find more information at finding mastery.net. You can also punch over to iTunes and download what's called Finding Mastery. And you can also, there's another one that we just fired up called Minutes on Mastery. Have you seen that? Yeah.

So we're just taking like two, three minutes insights from people and then push it right to their podcast inbox every day. So quick little nuggets every day. So, oh, and findingmastery.net forward slash community. There's a whole community of people that are switched on right now supporting each other. Ryan, maybe you can come on at some point and have some conversations there. And yeah, so everyone wishing you the best. Thank you. And I hope you kick ass today. all right thank you so much for diving into another episode of finding mastery with us

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