Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Author Wendy Behary on Narcissism and High Performance

Episode Date: June 19, 2017

Wendy Behary is a founding fellow and consulting supervisor for The Academy of Cognitive Therapy (Aaron T. Beck Institute). Wendy has a specialty in treating narcissists and the people who live with and deal with them. She is the author of "Disarming the Narcissist -- surviving and thriving with the self-absorbed” translated in 10 languages. Narcissism and world-class achievement have an interesting relationship. When we think of those who excel on the world stage, it'd be easy to conjure up a story that they have a deep inner belief that they can be the absolute best in the world (that's actually not the case, as we've come to learn from many of the folks on the Finding Mastery Podcast. But for those who do hold that belief -- THE WORLD REVOLVES AROUND ME BECAUSE I’M THAT IMPORTANT AND SPECIAL --is when my antenna tends to attune to the concept of narcissism. It's the excessive self-centered vanity and lack of regard for others that is one of the hallmarks of narcissism. We can all be self-absorbed, needy….. display narcissistic behavior from time to time…that's not what this is about….it's when the sense of grandiosity is so pervasive that it impairs daily functioning with others, and in essence, within themselves. Narcissism is named for the Greek myth of Narcissus—who was a hunter and when he saw his own reflection in the water, he fell in love with it, not realizing it was merely an image. He stared at his reflection until he died. The way I like to simplify narcissism, is that the person can't tell the difference between himself and everyone around him -- everyone then becomes a reflection of his him -- in which gives him the right to use them as extensions of his own self-worth (even if that means public embarrassment). There was an interesting piece of research in the Journal of applied sport psychology, 2013, by Ross Roberts and team -- where they found that the more narcissistic a person was, the less they benefited from psychological skills training - in other words, all you had to do for them, is turn on the lights, and they came alive. If you have ever thought, am I'm living with or working with a narcissist, or am I a narcissist? Wendy provides ways to tease that out. She dives into why so many elite performs are narcissists, and how we can be more effective with living and working with them._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Institute. Wendy has a specialty in treating narcissists and the people who live and deal with them on a regular basis. She's the author of Disarming the Narcissist, Surviving and Thriving with the Self-Absorbed. It's a phenomenal title and it's been translated in over 10 languages. So obviously this idea of narcissism is important for people to pay attention to. And narcissism and world-class achievement, they have an interesting relationship. And when we think of those who excel on the world stage, it's really easy to conjure up a story that they have a rich and deep inner belief that they can be the absolute best in the world. And that's actually not the case as we've come to learn from many of the folks on the

Finding Mastery podcast, is that they don't have that complete self-absorbed way of believing that they are the only or the absolute best in their craft. As a matter of fact, most folks that we've spoken to have revealed a deep sense of humility. And so it's for those that hold that belief that the world revolves around me because I'm that important and that special is when my intent to start to attune to the concept of narcissism. And so narcissism, you know, it's not that complicated, but there are some diagnostic stuff that psychologists run through, but it's the excessive self-centered vanity and the lack of regard for others that are some of the hallmarks of narcissism. And we all can be a bit self-absorbed or needy and have some vanity to us,

and we can display narcissistic behavior from time to time, but that's not what this is about. It's that deep sense of grandiosity that is so pervasive that it impairs their daily functioning, their relationship with themselves, their relationship with others. And that's what it's about. So narcissism is named for the Greek myth of Narcissus. And he was a hunter who, when he saw his own reflection in water, he fell in love with it. And he didn't realize that it was a reflection. And so he stared at it literally until he died. And the way that I like to simplify this concept of narcissism is that the person can't tell the difference between himself and everyone around him or her, and then everyone becomes a reflection of him or her. And it's in that twisted

way and in some kind of way that somehow gives them the right to use other people as extensions of their own self-worth. And oftentimes that can be like public embarrassment. It can go to that lengths. So there's an interesting piece of research as well. If we flip over to performance and sport, it was 2013 out of the Journal of Applied Sport Psychology, and it was by Ross and team, Ross Roberts and team, where they found the more narcissistic personality traits a person had, the less they benefited from psychological skills training. In other words, all you had to do for them was just turn on the lights and they became alive. And so if you've ever thought, am I living with a narcissist? Am I a narcissist? Am I working with a narcissist? Wendy provides really great ways to be able to

tease that out. And she dives into why so many elite performers do have these tendencies and how we can be more effective with living and working with them. Okay. And with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Wendy. Wendy, how are you doing? I'm doing great, Michael. How are you doing? Yeah, fantastic. So thank you for spending the time with us to talk about a concept that is relevant today in modern times and really relevant in the worlds that I spent a lot of time in, which is, you know, elite sport and elite performance. So I, yeah, I'm, I'm really interested to talk about narcissism with you. Good. Me too. I'm delighted to be with you. How did you get into being interested in the concept of narcissism? You know, working as a clinician many years ago, psychotherapist,

I found myself meeting individuals who could push my buttons like no other. So these were basically, you know, people who when I was in their presence, something about their responses, their reactions, their style, would have me finding myself as if in a time-warped state where I would be saying yes when I wanted to say no, I'm apologizing for something that wasn't my fault, I'm not setting limits when I should be setting limits, and really feeling as if I've been thrown back into, you know, a little girl once upon a time in the 60s in Catholic school when I was horrified of the nuns. So I just felt all of my own life themes getting reactivated and was

really curious about this population, this particular population who could trigger me and wanted to investigate it more thoroughly, try to understand what happens inside of us when we're confronted with people with what I figured out was narcissism at that time. And began to work alongside my then mentor in developing an approach that could be effective at helping them and helping others who are dealing with them. Okay. And so narcissism is, if I have this right, it's a psychological condition, but it's a social and cultural problem, right? It's a relationship problem. Is it a problem to the person or is it just a problem to, meaning that the impact of their behaviors will lead to things like losing significant others, relationships with their children, their partners, their family, losing their jobs, losing their driver's license, losing perhaps their elite positions, squandering their money and their success. So even health issues, it's a problem when in fact it reaches those excesses where one can't tolerate it anymore or their bodies can't tolerate what they're doing anymore. and the importance of relationships along the path to do difficult things, because we really

do need others to be able to explore potential, like the true human potential. And narcissism, like a big part of narcissism is that they don't have those relationships that have depth to them. It feels like to me, relationships are utility. And tell me if I'm wrong on this. And then as we're kind of in the weeds of this kind of, I don't know, two nerds talking about something that's really interesting, the science of narcissism, like, then I want to go way back and get like how you became really intrigued or set up to be intrigued for narcissism. So just if you just, you know, entertain this part of the conversation for a little bit, is that on the narcissist, I've always thought that the bootleg way of talking about this is that they have the inability to differentiate themselves from other people as though they don't exist.

And they're a tool or utility in their own gain or their own need to be valued. And is that close? Is that close to how you would move it outside of a technical psychological disorder mumbo-jumbo jargon into something that is more applied? Yeah, it's actually very well articulated. That's a good way to put it. And part of the reason is because so much of their interest is focused on performance and success and achievement and outcome and being extraordinary and winning and competing in whatever game of life they're playing. So their people and relationships are exactly as you've described them. You know, it's a means to an end and not necessarily, and not typically a way of connecting, engaging,

being in the presence of someone, knowing the other person's internal life and what they're feeling and experiencing. It's not designed. Relationships aren't designed for that. In fact, they'll comment that it's just boring. Relationships are boring. Boring. Yeah. Okay. And then how would someone know if they're in a relationship, whether it's like a supposed intimate relationship or a work relationship or whatever with somebody who is a narcissist?

What are the ways and the tells that we can identify that? Because I love what you said earlier is that all of a sudden I felt like I didn't matter and I was apologizing and trying to keep up because there's a real manipulative, seductive part of narcissism. So how can, and which is different than borderline and different than histr So how can, how can, and that, which is different than borderline and different than histrionic stuff. How can we better identify if we're in a relationship with a narcissist? Yeah, that's, that's great. I mean, it is that feeling that you're invisible, you know, you're only seen in ways that you have value to meet their particular agenda, their goals. So when you're with a

narcissist, what becomes noticeable eventually, if not immediately, is this sense of being with a person who's highly self-absorbed, who rarely asks a question about your feeling experience. And if they do, they barely listen to the answer. They're highly interruptive. They really seem to be operating on just their own agenda. I write about this in my book and it's whole bait and switch maneuver. Many people in relationships with narcissists will notice that, you know, the narcissist may initiate a question, like something as simple as, where would you like to go for dinner? And you give an answer, you know, I feel like going to the Italian restaurant tonight.

And before you know it, they're criticizing your decision. You know, they're putting you down, they're judging you. They'll ask your opinion about a movie, about something you read, about a podcast you listen to. anything that they ask, it sounds like an invitation with interest. They might even say, what's the matter? You look upset. And you venture to very carefully and thoughtfully explain that you're disappointed or you're upset, God forbid, with them. And then they begin to defend and attack. So, you know, it's that feeling that there's no room for your own personal experience, ideas, preferences, opinions, beliefs, unless it matches theirs completely, it's going to be open to either being dismissed or rejected or judged or criticized. And where does that come from for the person, for the narcissist? Is it some sort of significant break in childhood or early experiences where they just completely unroot what is a very natural experience, which is to be in relationships with others,

or is it bad wiring? What has your research led you to understand? I think like most personalities, it's a combination of that, you know, it's that interplay between nature, you know, the biology and how it expresses itself in our personalities and nurture. So the nature might be that, you know, the little one comes into the world very sensitive or impulsive or possibly even aggressive, which are the temperaments I think might mostly apply to narcissists. So they have this kind of temperamental tendency and it meets an environment with caregivers, significant adult, others who are just not equipped to meet the natural needs of this

particular child. Not that they're so different from any other child, but they may be even a little more sensitive, meaning they need more nurturing, affection, connection, empathy, attunement. And what happens is they're typically in an environment where the expectations are very much focused on their performance, their achievement, how well they do in school, in sports, in succeeding, in being superior, in being right. At the core of most of these very blustery, you know, larger than life people is a lot of insecurity and loneliness. You know, not knowing how to really connect to people in an intimate, personal way, only knowing how to compete with people, how to show their own mastery and,

and sense of righteousness and superiority. Okay. So you just described like 75% of the people I work with. So do you spend much time with elite athletes or elite performers in a variety of domains? Yes, I do. Okay. It's kind of a joke. Like almost everyone has the sense of narcissism in the elite because they've dedicated their whole life efforts to this thing. They've had to compete to be able to figure it out. And there's a scarring that comes with that, but I'm not mad about it. I'm not disillusioned by it either. So I'm trying to figure out the fine line between narcissism, a narcissistic disorder, and even maybe even more thinly sliced, which is what are the facilitative characteristics that actually help people become exceptional at something, but maybe don't cross over into the darker side of the cold realm of narcissistic, insecurity-based lack of relationship or empathetic responses to people. So that's what I'm trying to figure out is like that thinly sliced space

where it's facilitative and it's pretty cool, but not at the cost of other people not mattering. Yeah, that's a really cool question. And I think it has to do with the issue of balance. To what degree has this individual grown up in an environment where there was an ample, an adequate amount of experience and connecting with people? Meaning feeling like you're lovable at the core. You're fine as you are without having to meet certain conditions. Okay, because most don't. Like on the world stage, there's something around there that is a bit off. It's like mom and dad drove me, mom and dad weren't around. I, or I needed this,

uh, to feel like I mattered in the family because my younger brother, younger sister was doing amazing things or, or was always in trouble. Like there's a, there's a couple very clear patterns. So would you, okay. Like here, here's back to the joke again. Would you say that most people or was always in trouble. There's a couple of very clear patterns. So would you, okay, here's back to the joke again. Would you say that most people in elite performance domains, whether it's corporate America, corporate globally, or sports or performance, are narcissistic? I think there's a large percentage that are, and not surprisingly, you know, because again, when the bulk of the emphasis of your development and your worth and your value is placed on being super autonomous, right? Not needing other people, which means that to not need other people, you have to be able to be successful, at least to be able to care for yourself independently, and to be an outstanding performer for recognition and approval, because that's where you get your sense of worth and meaning. So it's not surprising that so many of the leaders in industry, in entertainment, in sports,

would have narcissistic traits. Now, they not be full blown narcissistic personality disorders. They may have gotten some of those, you know, emotional needs met, but you know, there's a large, I think a large majority I would predict are, um, are highly narcissistic. Okay. And like, I'm not so certain that it's bad. There's a reason in some way that these people tend to change the way an industry works. They might not be joyful and happy and have deep meaning in their life, but they've pushed boundaries in such a way and pushed people to such extremes that things take place. And that sounds really cold as I'm saying it, but I don't want it to be cold. I just want to entertain the facility in it, how this accelerates progression, but not at the cost of the human engagement. I never want to paint that picture, but there's something here that's really, I can't undo the ignoring of the human engagement. I never want to paint that picture, but there's something here that's really, I can't undo the ignoring of it. No, I agree. And I think it's like, I will say

to my friends and colleagues, I'm perfectly fine with being treated by a surgeon who is extremely arrogant, narcissistic, but he is a great surgeon and he's going to do an amazing job at saving my Yes, yes. that makes a difference or making a difference in the technological world or making a difference in the commerce world or being an incredibly wonderful entertainer. That's fine with me. Even in my field, God knows there are plenty of narcissists who've made outstanding contributions to the mental health industry. I don't want to live with them, but... That's cool. Yeah, that's a really cool thought there. Okay. Okay. And then let's take it. I don't know if this is to charge, but our current president and our past president. So Barack Obama and president Trump is that is, is president Obama. Was he, did he

have tendencies? Did you, I'm sure you looked through the lenses of both presidents through not see, they have to have some degree of narcissism because they have to have the capacity at times to overlook others. They have to have the capacity to be able to have super confidence. I mean, a kind of super confidence that may be highly self-absorbed and maybe even be a little tainted with their own, you know, needs for celebrity. It's okay with me. And I think it's okay with others, as long as it's for the betterment of others, truly for the betterment, you know, for improving the lives of others. So we call that the narcissist with a heart of gold, right? That deep at the core, there are good intentions, there is, you know, they can be

philanthropic and very generous. I think with Barack Obama, you know, the intentions were good, were pure. I think there was an authentic drive to want to improve. Did he like the spotlight? Did he enjoy some celebrity ship? Was that a piece of the personality? Yeah, perhaps. I mean, I think I can't hardly think of a politician who doesn't share that trait. But it's really the other end of the spectrum when it comes to Trump.

Okay, okay, before we go on to Trump. So let's stick with President Obama for just a moment. Is that how you say it? Or is it former President Obama? I think it is it former? I think either one is acceptable. The reason I say this, because once you're an Olympian, you're always an Olympian. And there's no there's no such thing as like a former Olympian. You know, it's a really it's a really cool thought. It's not really about him right now. But he's so iconic as a leader that if we went down and tried to guess his core drive,

based on what you just said, as a narcissist with a heart of gold, is the core drive to do good or is the core drive to be relevant? And that deep-seated need for relevancy is shrouded in the heart of gold. Which way does the order go? Well, I think. I mean, I never met him, so I don't know for sure. Not about him, but if he's just iconic for a person on the world stage that's done incredibly, an amazing amount of good. Yeah. And I imagine, you know, with the look into his background that he shares, you know, he shares his narrative. So to whatever degree, you know, this is all real and genuine. My guess is that there's, it's a bit of both of what you're describing. I think there's an intersection or some integration

of this core drive to be relevant and to do it by way of this vehicle of making a difference in the lives of others. And that might be where we have to consider one's temperament and biology. Is there also this essential sensitivity that lies at the heart of the personality, you know, the sensitivity to the feelings of others. I mean, some people have this really incredible innate sensitivity to this pain and suffering of other people, and they feel compelled to want to make a difference. Now, if they also have side by side with that, a longing for relevance that has never been completely fulfilled for them in a satisfying way, the merger of these two can be really, you know, interesting and outstanding. They can do good things, but they also can come across at times a little cocky, you know, and, and, you know, enjoying their celebrity ship. I call them harmless narcissists, you know, they don't, they're not hurting other people, because although they may enjoy the approval or the recognition that they receive, their intentions are really quite good. Okay. All right. Yeah. All right. Perfect. And then if you could walk us through a little bit

the difference or similarities between President Trump. Well, I've taken a deep breath for us to do that. And I don't want to put you on the spot. I just know that there's, you know, I mean, if you don't want to have this conversation, that's okay, too. But I know that you've got to have some opinions. Well, I've had this conversation. Now I've been having it for six months in a variety of different media platforms. And in just some of my own writing. I treat people like this. These are the people that come into my treatment room, because I tend to work with, see in consultation narcissistic men who are at the more severe end of the spectrum. Now, again, I'm not diagnosing

him. I can't diagnose him. I've never met him. But I can say from looking, watching, observing patterns, traits, behaviors, that, you know, he looks like the people that I meet in my treatment room, who we put at the more severe end of the spectrum because there is this very super self-absorbed quality, this great impulsivity, this need for righteousness, this need to be in charge, this controlling, omnipotent way of behaving. I can use so many adjectives to describe it, but I would say it's a more malignant form in that it's difficult to get the leverage. It's difficult to find meaningful consequences to really hook them into seeing and seeing the impact of their behavior, seeing their behaviors and action in a way that allows them to appreciate the effects on other people.

I mean, they really see it through this very monolithic lens that I'm right, I'm doing right, and they want applause and adulation around them for what they're doing. This is their worth. This is their value. This is what defines them. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better

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humanitarian as we would hope is do you think that that's going to be one of the potential costs to a president being extremely potentially being extremely narcissistic yes absolutely mmm okay and then in your experience of working with narcissists do they change only if well a few things have to be present you have to have leverage so there has to be a consequence that's meaningful enough to them to get them to come to therapy they rarely walk in voluntarily. And without treatment, change is almost, it's probably impossible. So there has to be something. It might be that they have a medical diagnosis. It might be that someone's threatening to leave them. It might be that they're at risk for a legal infraction of some kind. They'll come into treatment,

typically unwillingly, but because they're fearful of the consequences. And then the next element is they have to be working with someone who understands this very complicated personality because it is complicated. They can woo the therapist. They can intimidate therapists. There's no surprise that when I teach around the world to clinicians who want to learn how to develop their own sense of mastery and working with narcissism. And the reason the rooms are packed is because it is one of the toughest groups to work with. So they can change if you have leverage, if the therapist is good at maintaining the leverage, if the therapist understands the complexities of narcissism.

And if you're working in a treatment approach like the one that I'm using, of course, I'm biased, but it's been proven effective in my years of working with schema therapy. So there are models that are designed to work specifically with this type of person. Okay. So they can change. It requires leverage and it requires sensitivity to the nuances of the disorder itself. Right. Okay.

And then I've got like, I've got so many questions, but I need to slow down my thoughts here, which is one is I want to know how, like what is some of the steps that you found to be valuable in your approach? And then, but put it into a context where if people on the other side of this conversation are saying, am I a narcissist? Am I one? Because I want to do amazing things. And I understand that there's like a tension. And I kind of like how that feels. And like, how would somebody listening also be able to identify if they are struggling with that? Okay.

Well, you know, the steps for understanding, well, I'll take the second one first. I think, you know, to know that you're, if you're wondering if you have narcissistic tendencies or if you have a narcissistic personality disorder, you'd really want to ask questions like, is my, you know, my ambition and my competitiveness and my drive for success, is it what defines me? Is it what makes me lovable, acceptable, worthy as a human? Is it what makes me feel fine? And am I fine when I'm there? Do I still feel like it's not good enough and I have to try harder? Or is it something that just is really a thrill? You know, it's just fun and it's a thrill and it's meaningful to me. But I know it's not a condition for me feeling lovable as a human.

Is it also possible for me to, you know, just kind of wiggle my toes in the grass and sharing and connection and intimacy and personal opportunity and relationships where, you know, you're just sharing eye contact and having a conversation with someone you care about. Do I have a close, intimate friend that I can be vulnerable with and open up and share my worries and my hurts and my doubts and my fears and my sadness? Is there someone in my life that I can be honest and reveal myself to in that way without feeling weak? Or do I always have to be tough and strong and in charge and on top of things, in command? So these are some of the questions that we put out there to try to get. And they're just the you know, the simple, again, non-jargony ones that help people to take a look at themselves in the mirror. Narcissists typically feel that their work is their worth. And however high their performance is, is how high their value is as a human. And I find myself as a therapist, very often saying to them when they argue with me,

which they do all the time, of course, they're always are in an argumentative mode, saying things like, you know, I'm not, you know, I'm not trying to prove myself. And I don't know what you're talking about. And, you know, this is just the way I am. This is just the way I was built. And, you know, maybe I don't have emotional needs like other people. And I'll say, you know, to them that if you knew you were fine, if you really knew at the core that you were fine and you were okay, you wouldn't have to try so hard to prove yourself to me. You wouldn't have to constantly be dropping the names and telling me the stories of the wonderfulness if you really knew you were fine. It's one thing to be proud and we all like to be

liked and we like to feel admired and appreciated for our work, for our service, for our contributions. It's another thing to need that so much in order to feel like you matter. As you're describing this, I can't help but wonder about the gender differences between the attributes that you're just describing, right? To be open and vulnerable and take risks emotionally seems, and I don't want to get myself in trouble here, but seems like there's more feminine qualities there than masculine when we get to the workplace. And I'm not saying it's right and wrong, but I have a tough time imagining the World War I or World War II generation having any of those attributes you just described.

And I'm thinking about my grandfather. I think I'm just a wonderful human being that didn't necessarily – zero narcissism, but didn't have the characteristics that you described as well. So can you talk about the difference of some of that between, is there a gender difference? Well, certainly there can be a gender difference, but I would say you can also have someone who is clearly like your grandfather, shows no signs of narcissistic traits, can be reciprocal, can have conversations that are very give and take, can show interest in other people, may not expose their vulnerability, keep it more buttoned up because of the experiences they've lived, the generation they've lived in, the legacy they've been handed, trauma

perhaps also that they've suffered. But that doesn't mean they're narcissistic because they don't become vulnerable. It could be socialization as a male, which also may contribute to that. suffered. But that doesn't mean they're narcissistic because they don't become vulnerable. It could be socialization as a male, which also may contribute to that. So that doesn't make them narcissistic, you know, just because they cannot reveal themselves. You really have to have the other side of it, which is the need to prove yourself, the need to perform in order to feel like you have value. Yeah, there you go. Okay, good, good clarity for me. Okay. All right, cool. And then how so that was, like how those two parts like the steps, like, how do you identify if you are one, and you just walked us through there?

And the other question was, like, what are some steps to help people? And are people that are in a relationship, like a man or woman that's in a relationship with a narcissist, are they outmatched? Like flat out just get out of the relationship for 90% of them because it's too hard to try to help a narcissist change if you're not qualified? It's really hard to try to help a narcissist change. But that being said, I mean, I wrote my book for people who are in relationships with narcissists who actually can see the suffering side underneath, the vulnerable part of the narcissist. Every now and then they get a glimpse of that part that's tired, that's lonely, that's lost without their shiny toys and their exciting world of success.

And they see maybe that little boy or that little girl underneath and that vulnerable side of them, and they love that part. And so they may not be able to affect a complete overhaul of personality, but they might be able to inspire the motivation to get help, to seek change. And if it's a milder form of narcissism, they may even be able to get a meaningful enough transformation. So, you know, the best steps for approaching someone with narcissism in your life, whether it's your partner, it's a friend or a boss, you know, is using, this always sounds a little weird and controversial when I say it, but it's your partner, it's a friend or a boss, you know, is using, this always sounds a little weird

and controversial when I say it, but it's a strategy that we use in the treatment room even can be used by anyone called empathic confrontation, meaning empathy combined with confrontation, whether it's setting limits or it's just drawing their attention to something that they're doing that is hurtful or upsetting. So when I say empathy, I'm not saying sympathy. I'm not saying feeling sorry for the narcissist or just letting them off the hook. I'm saying develop a deep understanding of how they're put together. Know their story as best you can, or know something about them as best you can, even if it's just that you understand their need to have things precisely done, you know, in a certain way, their need for perfection, their need for order, their need for clarity,

whatever it might be, know something about them so that you can begin your confrontation with some form of empathy. So it might sound like in the treatment room, it would sound something like, you know, listen, I know that you were raised with the idea that you could say or do whatever you want without consequence, as long as you got good grades and brought home a lot of trophies for your sports, that there were really no limits on what you could do. So it's not your fault that, you know, now fast forward into your adult life, it feels perfectly reasonable to you to just blurt out whatever comes to your mind without consequence. But the thing is, Joe, you know, you weren't really prepared to live in the world of relationships.

So you're a great performer when it comes to getting jobs done in your work. But when it comes to relating to other people, you have that tendency of pushing them away. Because without thought, you just blurt things out. They could be hurtful. They can be off-putting. And although it might not be your intention to do that, that's the effect. So there's a lot of empathy for the experience that they bring. But a but, and there's a big but, but the confrontation is to hold them accountable or to set limits to say, look, I know you may not mean to be hurtful. Okay. There's the empathy. I know you, and I know you're not trying to hurt me, but Hey, ouch. You know, that hurts. Knock it off. So empathy confrontation, it's a very, very effective strategy.

So it, okay. So, so it's got two components to it, right? One is I see where this is coming from, but you got to stop. Yeah. Yeah. You got to look at this. You got to stop. Is then the leverage that I'll leave? What is the leverage going back to your earlier part? Could be.

If they're ready for that, it could be, you know, I can't do this anymore if you don't get some help. The leverage could be, you know, I'd love to see us carry our lives into the future and grow all together. But what I'm starting to see is an inevitable path to separation because I can't tolerate feeling like I don't matter in this relationship. I deserve to feel like a partner. Okay, then. Okay. So let's play that out. Well, then toughen up. Well, then, you know, like, why is this, like, why are you blaming me? Like, toughen up then.

Come on. Get on with it your own life. Yeah. Well, you know, I think I am pretty tough for the most part. And if I'm sensitive, it's in the personal parts of our relationship. So, you know, if I'm a sensitive person, then I would expect my partner to be a little more gentle with me. Ah, that's cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was good. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah. Okay. Okay. You've done this before. Okay. So walk, walk, walk us through five years. Yeah.

How many years? Probably about 25 years. Yeah, that's really good. I want to know about schema therapy quickly. But then I also want to know, what does it feel like for the narcissist? What is their experience in the world? Is are they lonely? Are they scared? Are they anxious? Like, what is that root experience? I think at the heart of it all, you have a little person who is lonely and feels ashamed. You know, there's a shame about not feeling loved unconditionally. There's a shame for their own longings for the same things that every human longs for when they come into the world. And I think they're lonely because they really don't have the capacity. They don't know how to connect at a very personal, intimate level.

I want to tell you a funny story. I don't know why this triggers what you just said, but when my son was young, we bought this. My wife and I bought this nice little thing that hung over his bed. And it says it was like handmade and crafted. And it said, you are. And then there's a bunch of links of like wood links that hung underneath it. And then there was these great adjectives, you know, like you are kind and strong and, you know, nice little adjectives that were on there. And then I was having a conversation with one of my friends, Jim, and Jim says, God, what is wrong with parents? Always just telling

these kids that they're so amazing and they haven't done anything. And I thought to myself, wait, I've got this sign. And so I think where this is going is that are we creating a generation of mini narcissists by telling them that they're amazing without ever having to apply effort? I think if they're not, no, I don't think that makes them narcissists. I think that telling your child that they're amazing no matter what is that unconditional love. There's no conditions attached to it. It's I love you no matter what. Now, that being said, as a good parent, we still have to apply discipline and limits and teach our children how to tolerate frustration. The problem nowadays with more burgeoning little narcissists out there is that they don't have the same, I think there's been a shift, you know, some of that's technology,

some of that's just parents perhaps also, you know, engaged in technology faster, quicker, easier. And it's all terrific on the one hand. But on the other hand, children are not getting the opportunity to still learn how to be uncomfortable. You know, that's life. We're uncomfortable to wait our turn in line. We have to sit in traffic. We have to share conversations. We have to try, try again.

And I think we're losing that peace. And that's the part where parents, you know, they're cleaning it up too fast. I work in a the Ivy Leagues, and so they're going to tutor them up. And the children's really not learning how to flex that muscle of frustration tolerance. That's a cool thought. What do you call it? Vicarious narcissism. It's like, I matter if my kid does well. I matter if my kid's the valedictorian, the one who gets into the Ivy League school, the one who's the super athlete. Then I matter. Then I'm special. Then

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Yeah, I think I can. Just very briefly, I mean, schema therapy means we look at our life themes. We look at our story. Schema therapy dives deep to try to understand how we're put together, connect the dots and look at the life themes. Everyone has schemas, which just means that we have traits in our personality that include beliefs about ourselves that we picked up from our parents and caregivers and teachers and siblings and peer groups. And they become entrenched in the way we look at the world, the way we relate with others. So if you grow up hearing that the only worth you have is based on how well you do as compared to

your peers, then that's a schema. We'd say that's a failure schema, or that might be a defectiveness schema, meaning it's a trait that under certain conditions gets triggered. So all you have to do with a narcissist is be sitting across from them and say something that's really brilliant. And suddenly they're triggered into feeling inadequate. It's like now the competition game on, you know, I'll show you who's smarter. And so instead of enjoying the fact that you've just made this interesting comment and learning from it and being excited about it, they're competing with you because they're triggered. So schema therapy, we teach our clients how to first identify these different traits and how to look at the conditions under which they get activated and then look at how they

react to them. And then eventually, through a lot of emotional strategies, which I won't go into, you know, we teach them how to unravel that how to get their needs met, how to begin to feel at the core of themselves that with narcissists, for example, that they're perfectly fine. They always were. And to feel that sense of security at the deepest level. Very cool. Okay. All right. So you wrote a book about this.

And then how's that going? It's great. My book is an international bestseller. The timing of it couldn't be better, right? With the current climate. And then you're speaking to an entire tribe of people that are listening right now that are, want to do amazing things. That's why they're studying bright minds and people that have done amazing things on the path of mastery, because they too want to do amazing things. So I have this thought that underneath the surface, listeners are saying, well, God,

am I? Because, you know, I, know, I'm not sure. So how would you speak directly to, you know, John and Joey and Susan and Susie that are listening right now? I'd say to them, you know, as I say to my clients about this, who are really, who've really done some amazing things in their own, in their work, in politics, in sports, in their celebrity ship, whatever form it might take. But they never have to feel embarrassed about their drive or ambition. They never have to be apologetic for that, that they enjoy doing meaningful things, that they enjoy winning and achieving.

They don't have to be sorry for that unless, in fact, it has come at the price of hurting someone else or it's come with a price of forfeiting their opportunities to be there for their children in at least meaningful ways. I'm not talking about quantity because I know that many people who are, you know, in the world of celebrity, whatever form it might take, they may not have the same amount of time to give as someone who's doing a nine to five type of job. But we also know that quantity isn't the only thing that counts when it comes to having really robust relationships. So I tell them, you don't have to be apologetic for that. We just need to look and see, is there, number one, going back to that other question, is it the only thing that defines your worth? In other words, are you so driven to do this because

it's the only way you can prove that you matter in the world? And if that's not the case, then, you know, bravo. You know, continue to do what you're doing. Do you feel like you have intimate others in your life that you can connect with in ways that aren't always part of this, you know, star driven path or, you know, productive achievement oriented path? So it's just always looking at the other side. Okay, totally cool. And then how do you balance this? I mean, you were triggered by narcissists

in your office, and then you go on to really understand it. You wrote a book about it, and you have international attention. I'm not going to be aggressive when I say it, but how much of narcissistic stuff do you have to wrestle with as well? Because how dare these brilliant narcissists come into your office and tell you that you're wrong? It's a good, it's a great question. I know the obvious, right? But I make the joke sometimes, but if my husband were answering this question, he'd say, well, he loves to cook. So when he cuts himself, I'll say, oh my God, how could you do that? I'm, I can feel it. It's killing me. And then I'd defend myself and say, it's because I'm so sensitive to your pain. So we make a joke about that. And look, I think, um, I have a passion for human behavior. I always have. I'm passionate about what makes people tick. I

love the field that I'm in. And, you know, having made lots of mistakes in the beginning, working with this population, narcissists, I learned a lot about myself, about them, which just continued, you know, my curiosity and my fascination, my urge to discover. I enjoy my recognition as being an expert in the area of narcissism, but I also am really fortunate to have grown up with parents who loved me unconditionally. So I feel like at the core, I don't feel like I have to do this to feel lovable and worthy, but it's really exciting to be able to do something like this that makes a difference in the lives of clinicians and others and partners and relationships who are struggling with this particular syndrome. Oh, you call it a syndrome. You didn't call it a disorder. Because I look at narcissism as happening along a spectrum. So I don't see it all as a disorder.

I see it more as a syndrome of traits and people have a variety of different traits and levels of intensity in terms of how they show up as narcissists. And, um, you know, so, so I've got this, um, this experience where it was early in my career and there was a top six or seven gymnasts in the, in the country in America. And she comes in with her mom and, uh, mom was, she was young. She was like 14 years old or 13 years old, maybe even 12. I can't remember exactly, but she was young. And I kept mom in the room for a particular reason because my antenna just came up as soon as the two of them walked into the room. And she comes into the room and I said, will you stay? And the mom's like, well, of course. And so going after 30 minutes of the conversation, I asked the young child, the athlete to wait outside for a minute. And I said, mom, it's really clear. Your daughter's got OCD. She's got a pretty severe OCD.

And mom looked at me. She says, well, yeah, I kind of guessed that. That's why we're here. And I said, so here's the challenge, is that if I help the OCD, she might not be world-class because if we undo the disorder, the disorder is deeply intertwined with her skill and why she is so fricking good at this very dangerous sport of gymnastics. And she was doing like, like some pretty tricky stuff for a 12 or 13 year old. And so mom looked at me and she said, oh dear. And she said, well, no. And I said, okay, I just want to be really clear that, you know, she is suffering. She's, she's really struggling in her life.

And if we work on the AD or the OCD stuff, she probably would be a happier person, but might not be world-class. And so, you know, I, I just need to let you know, they walked out, she walked out, she was done. So she made the choice for performance as opposed to health. Okay. So, so if we apply that same story on the lens of the narcissist, and I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about my peers and contemporaries and people that maybe haven't done enough psychological training or study of the science of psychology. Because when we're entwined with these people that are

exceptional at what they do, and we lack the sensitivity to how complicated it really is, like really complicated, if we undo the narcissism, we might have problems. But they might be happier and the people around them might be better, you know, better off for it. So do you, can you just riff off of that a little bit about the, I think what I'm asking is like the sensitivity we need to honor that not everybody needs to change, wants to change. And if they do want to change that there potentially is a cost that is unanticipated. Yeah, I think I said that very well. I think that many of my narcissistic clients will say things like, Wendy, I can't afford to lose my edge. That's it, right? You're going to soften me up and then I'm going to lose my edge and how am I going to go back to the trading floor at Wall Street? Or how am I going

to be able to command 5,000 people in my corporation if I'm paying attention to my emotions? And they can't at the beginning of this idea of softening the edge, they cannot imagine how they could continue to still be masterful and successful at what they do. Now, what might happen, the consequences for some of them might be that they'll be desiring more time with friends and family. They'll put less time into what they're doing. So that could be a potential risk for them. For some of them, their focus might shift, so there might be some risk. But for most of them, their talent, their gifts, their intellect, their intelligence, I do think there's probably some correlation with certain types of narcissists

where their intelligence plays a role in this. Not coincidental that they can be very autonomous, successful people because they're very bright and capable of moving along that path. And so I try to help them imagine that adding to this already innate talent, a part of their life that has a softer cushion and a more personal component could be like the magic that they're really looking for. So we're always looking at what is the cost, you know, not they don't have to change, not everyone has to change, and they don't have to give up the way they're operating.

But we look at the cost benefit analysis, you know, what is it costing you in terms of your family and your health, and your your overall well your overall well-being. I know a lot of narcissistic people who rise to the top and then fall hard because of their super, you might see it as super generous, and I say it's super egotistical spending and giving away of their money so that they can be superheroes and they can maintain their fans and followers. Yeah, it's crazy. That's one of the reasons I think so many people in professional sport are broke is like, like if I can just help people out, then I matter, you know, like there's a nice part to it, but there's also the other part, which is I'm reckless and careless. And like, if I buy dinner for everybody all the time, then I matter as well. And if I buy cars, I matter maybe a little bit more.

But it's a limits issue. They have a really hard time seeing the limits. And I don't want to miss the opportunity to say that there's a deeper calling for most people beyond just being relevant, that there is a deeper calling to be connected and to, and to know that, um, there's a relationship that is authentic and that, but that's not the narcissist, right? The narcissist is not there yet. It doesn't mean they can't get there. And I think that my, what my challenge is in, in a-sensitive short window of opportunity that people are world-class, to pull them out for four months, six months to do deep work or confuse them for that amount of time becomes problematic for the trajectory. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying there's this embedded cost in it.

And I love the sensitivity that you have when you said, yes, we always look at the cost benefit ratio. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you have to. Brilliant. This is, listen, I love this. And so disarming the narcissist is your book. And then can I ask you like a few quick hit questions? Yeah, sure. Okay. So this is not for the narcissist. This is for you, right? Are you more street savvy or more analytical? Am I more street savvy or am I more analytical? I'd probably say I'm a bit more street savvy.

Okay. And then do you prefer a slow paced environment or fast-paced environment for learning? Fast. Risk taker or rule follower? I would have been a rule follower growing up. That's changed to be more of a risk taker. What is your need for control or leadership in an environment? High, medium, low?

Everyone else would say that Wendy has to always be in control. So probably high. Okay. Intellectually competitive? Sure. And then high, medium, low for that? I'd say probably medium. I mean, I love learning, so I'm happy to be the student as well. Okay. Are you more self-critical or self-positive?

Self-critical. Self-critical. And then critical of others or positive of others? Positive of others. And then do you make fast decisions or slow decisions? Well, it depends. My husband would say it takes me forever to make a decision about vacations and things of that sort. I can make very fast decisions when it comes to my professional life. Okay. And then do you see the future as being bright or dark, like optimistic or pessimistic? Right. And then where does pressure come from? I put too much on my plate. Self-imposed. It's very self-imposed.

Self-imposed. So more internally driven? Yeah. Yeah. And then how do you finish this lot? It all comes down to. It all comes down to. That's a good one. I know it is. It's hard. It's hard. It is hard. It all comes down to. Who are you thinking about right now i was just thinking i was looking at the sky and thinking it all comes down to a sense of serenity oh yeah look at that is that what your clients need

uh yeah that kind of internal balance and peace and serenity inside. Yeah. And then how about this? There was a the crossroad of my life was? The crossroad. Hmm. I think it was, you know, taking a step to the greatest crossroad in my life, if you mean in a challenging way, was deciding to shift things in my professional life. I love diversity, but it was the decision to diversify in a way that would really expand my reach. so did you go from a traditional hang a shingle see some clients to something where you said i'm going to write about it or did you go from like a working laboratory with people hanging the shingle thing like one person at a time to seminars then write about it like what was your what was your path i never wanted to actually hang a shingle, and that's what I ended up doing

and discovered that I enjoyed being a psychotherapist. I still do. I like helping people, but it was moving to become an educator, whether through writing or speaking, lecturing. I love teaching. I love teaching because I love the learning in the exchange of teaching as well as just watching people light up and become inspired when they're learning. So that was an exciting development in my career was moving towards becoming an educator.

It's a cool, it's one of the greatest things is when, whether it's in a small room or a large room and you see someone go, Oh, Oh, Oh, right. Like, and the neuroscience of that is that we both get that hit of dopamine. We both get that hit. And then we get the, um, Oh my gosh, what's the cuddle chemical called? Oxytocin, oxytocin. Um, yeah. So then we both get that hit as well. So there's a bonding, there's a connectivity, there's a dopamine. It's a wonderful thing when people have those aha moments. Okay. And then how do you think about success? For myself personally, success is, you know, really never losing my curiosity to continue to keep discovering and learning and teaching and sharing what I'm learning.

For me, that's a success. I just finished a four-day training seminar where I was teaching. I do an international seminar where I teach people from around the world how to use this exciting therapeutic approach. We talk about narcissism and other difficult populations. And watching them walk out feeling like they have something they can begin to take back into their communities around the world. That's for me, that's success. They feel inspired. They feel invigorated.

They feel more competent. And they're going to do some good things. And that feels good. And when I just say this word, what happens to relationships? My daughter. Oh yeah. Cool. Did you have brothers and sisters growing up? I have a sister. And you were older or younger? I'm the oldest. The oldest. And the socioeconomic structure was? We struggled. So like middle-class like lower lower middle to lower middle class yeah yeah so then you've you've you've done something rare right you've um changed your

socioeconomic status from your family perspective yes very much so and then how did you do that are you gonna say like curiosity or like how did you do that? Are you going to say like curiosity or like how did you do that? I knew that I wanted to have a different life. I knew that I didn't want to. I watched my family struggle. I saw great talent and potential in my parents and seemingly no access or capacity to further themselves. They were devoted to the family. They were devoted to just each taking each day as it comes. And I wanted more than that. And they believed in me,

you know, they just believed in me. They didn't have the capacity to really guide me in any particular direction, but they always believed in me. So I think I just, I had that oomph, you know, and I was inspired once I, I finally made my way to college, which I did on my own. And I just had amazing teachers and professors that inspired me to continue on the path. I've been so lucky to have wonderful mentors. And I think that has made the difference. And then how do you think about, do you have a philosophy? Like my philosophy is? You know, be kind to each other. Be kind to each other, learn from each other. I love the philosophy of integration. You know, I love what Dan Siegel, who is also one of my wonderful mentors, and you may know of him. Dan Siegel writes about interpersonal neurobiology and the whole intersubjective experience of relationships and growth. And he's amazing and brilliant. And, you know, he has helped further my belief that empathy is the golden nugget. The more we can try to walk in the shoes of another and understand each other, the better the chances of integrating with one another. So my philosophy is very much about the value of empathy and integration. Brilliant. Are there one or two things that you would encourage people that want to develop deeper empathy and deeper integration and connection that they can

do or practice to get better at that as an accelerant to them being a better human, whatever better means. Yeah. Give people the benefit of the doubt. Try to imagine their story. Ask questions if you have the opportunity to ask questions to get to know them in the deeper ways, not just the logistical questions, but pay attention to their experiences. You know, there's a difference between saying, you know, what do you like to do in your free time and listening to the answer like an interviewer, or what do you like to do in your free time? And they tell you and you say, wow, you really light up when you say that. Tell me more about that. So, you know, just paying attention to how people feel and what makes them tick and get to know their story, try to get in their skin.

Golly, so good. Okay. And then what do you hope the next generation gets right based on all the work that you've had and you've experienced and the mentors you've had? Like, what do you hope your, I don't know how old your daughter is, but how old is she? 29. 29. Like what do you, so she's not the next generation, but like, what do you hope the next generation gets? Well, my daughter is a really good human and I'm really proud of her because she is a humanitarian at heart. And I hope the next generation will look to take care of each other and embrace each other. I know that might sound a little hippy-dippy when I say it, but I really think we're going to need it. We're going to need it very much. We're going to need to pay a lot of attention

to what's becoming fearfully a very egotistical world and and now with leadership that is modeling this modeling this idea of you know exclusivity and segregation and i mean we're stepping backwards in time so i i hope the next generation will fight hard to try to be inclusive and then how do you think about mastery like how do you articulate or or even be so bold to define the concept i think mastery is um for me mastery is empathy there's sort of one in the same you know the more we understand and we know and we learn we keep our mind open to learning the greater the chance to take whatever you're passionate about and become a master at that. Okay.

So I want to thank you for your time and I want to thank you for sharing more importantly, like the real stuff that you're able to share, both from the family perspective, your personal experiences, and then the insights that you've come to understand from studying a very complicated personalities. So thank you. Seriously. Thank you very much for all of that. Thank you, Michael. I appreciate the interview. It's really wonderful and I love your questions.

Some are harder than others. Some are harder than others, yes. What happens to you when it's hard? Do you feel tension? Does your body heat up? Do you start to wonder? For me, I get all of that. Like, so what, what, what happens for you when something's hard? You're good. One last question. You know, it's interesting. What happens is like when I'm

writing, you know, it's, it's my own compulsive nature to make sure that I represent myself. Honestly. I mean, I have a real, if I think about my own schemas, it's really that idea of self-representation that's authentic. And so I look for the right answer that really is going to capture the truth inside of me. God, it's so hard. I love that. And so I had this thought last night as I'm thinking about being and becoming, the interaction between the two of those. And the becoming requires a skill. And it hit me like a light bulb. It requires a skill because to articulate the being so clearly that we have to be able to have some sort of command over both our mind and a craft to be able to authentically

express ourselves, which is so freaking hard. That's good. That's great. Yeah. have some sort of command over both our mind and a craft to be able to authentically express ourselves, which is so fricking hard. That's good. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. It's so hard to do. And so is yours writing? Is that your craft? My God. Yes. It's my nemesis. Oh, it is. Yeah. Okay. I can do it, but I don't do it the way people are supposed to write. I mean, you're supposed to write and then you go back and you edit and I edit every word as I'm writing. So it's tedious and it's hard and it's just fraught with this whole experience of, is that my voice? Is that really what I want to say? Is that really the word that captures what I'm thinking and feeling? Is that really going to convey the

message clearly? I really relate. And I think when I talk about a concept, I can talk about it 10 different ways. And it all seems authentic to me, but none of the points really argue that much. But at the same time, it's different. Each time it's different. Yeah. Okay. Wendy, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And then, so where can we find you on social media? You can find me, I have a Facebook page um the cognitive therapy center and schema therapy institute of new jersey i have a linkedin page wendy behary b-e-h-a-r-y i'm on twitter at dons and divas whoa say it again d-o-n-s d-o-n-s-a-n-d-d-i-v-a-s, Dons and Divas. Cool. Okay. And then what was the Facebook handle?

The Cognitive Therapy Center. You can just go to Wendy Beharie. I have a personal page and I also have the Cognitive Therapy Center and Schema Therapy Institute of New Jersey. Perfect. And you have DisarmingTheNarcissist.com, which is the title of your book. And that's my website also. So thank you everyone for following along. You can connect with us if you like this conversation, other conversations, findingmastery.net for other downloadable podcasts. You can also go

to iTunes for Finding Mastery, and then you can find me and Wendy online. And so for me, Twitter at Michael Gervais, and then our Instagram page is Finding Mastery. And if you like this conversation, punch over to our community, findingmastery.net forward slash community. Thank you again, Wendy. Thank you, Michael. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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