Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Balancing Success and Well Being | AMA Vol. 22 Live From NYC

Episode Date: August 26, 2024

A few months back, we recorded our first ever AMA in front of a live audience in New York City. The energy in the room was incredible, and it brought a whole new level of depth and spontaneity to the conversation. Your favorite co-host, O'Neil Cespedes, and I dove headfirst into the questions that matter most to you. And this time, it wasn’t just us talking—our audience had a chance to steer the conversation in real time.We dug into some fascinating topics, including:The delicate balance between striving for success and maintaining mental healthHow to rewire your brain to change habitsThe difference between high performance and masteryNavigating the pitfalls of the ‘Self-Help Industrial Complex’Revolutions in the workplace that are shaping the future of success.And much, much more!These AMAs are always a highlight for us, and this live session took it to another level. The questions were sharp, the dialogue was rich, and the energy was palpable. I think you’re going to love this one as much as we did.Recorded at Two Forty Thirty in New York City._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. Welcome back or welcome to another Ask Me Anything on Finding Mastery. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais by trade and training, a high-performance psychologist. This week, we have a really fun one for you. A few months back, we recorded our first ever AMA in front of a live audience in New York City. The energy in the room, it was incredible. And it brought a whole new level of depth and

spontaneity to the conversation. Your favorite co-host, O'Neill Cespedes, and I dove headfirst into some questions that mattered most to you. And this time, it wasn't just us talking. Our audience had a chance to steer the conversation in real time. So we ended up digging into some fascinating topics, including the delicate balance between striving for success and maintaining mental health, how to rewire your brain to change habits, the difference between high performance and mastery, navigating the pitfalls of the self-help industry complex,

revolutions in the workplace that are shaping the future of success, and so much more. These AMAs are always a highlight for us, and this live session took it to another level. The questions were sharp. The dialogue was rich. It was honest. The energy was palpable. And I think you're going to love this one as much as we did. So with that, let's dive right into our first ever live AMA from New Welcome to BED! How are you? Hi, everybody. It's great to be here.

This is an honor for us to do this with you. And the hope, as I think you probably explained, is that this is going to be intimate and thoughtful, and hopefully we can answer your questions. Just have an experience together that only we could have tonight. And so I'm an open book. They already know I'm an open book. Okay, O'Neill's an open book.

And then hopefully what we do is we just unpack what is useful, and we'll work from the truth, and we'll work from honesty, we'll work from science, and we'll also work from best and we'll work from honesty or work from science and we'll also work from Best practices that work out in the field and so Thank you for being here with us Yeah, for making this the two of us hanging out is fun, but this is way better with you guys Yeah, cool. All right, let's do it. Let's um, let's start So hopefully what you what we'll get is a little bit, you'll get the behind the scenes, but you're in it with us. So this isn't like be quiet and sit

on your hands and be a listener. Let's do this together. Any question that we're going to wrestle with and feel free to double click, open it up, respond to it, make it truthful for you. Because what a waste of time if we're just kind of playing something. Let's make this a real experience for all of us, okay? And then hopefully you've got questions as well. Okay, there we go. All right, cool. This question here is my favorite question off the rip. Mike, I've been following you since I first read your article in Harvard Business Review four years ago. I just recently signed up on your website to start sharing your insight with my kids. So the question is essentially this. In our society, we value individuals who focus on the high performance and then turn to well-being once they've hit a ceiling. We forgive the entrepreneur or the star athlete who put their

mental health or personal life on hold to become great at something. When we applaud them, when they shift to focusing on developing a lot of practices you talk about. What about the individual who chooses to focus on their well-being first? A person who spends their teens and 20s or 20s and 30s focusing on developing their personal philosophy and then hits a professional ceiling because society doesn't view them as being an expert in any given field. Isn't it better to put all your effort into becoming Simone Biles or Naomi Osaka or Kevin Love or Mark Zuckerberg first and focus on mental health second? Terms like meaning and purpose and embracing discomfort don't mean much on a resume when

you're searching for a new job or a new career. That's a good question, Al. That's a great question. Yeah. When you hear that, what part of that question do you attach to? The part that society doesn't embrace a person who's trying to become better. We embrace the success part. Yeah.

Yeah. Same with me. So this is a question about ordering. What comes first, well-being or the commitment to excellence? And then the part two of that is, like, am I okay if I go about it that way? There's going to be some ceiling, maybe. What was the last part of the question? Isn't it better to put all your effort in becoming like a Simone Biles, Naomi Osaka, or Mark Zuckerberg first on mental health and mental health second? Because terms like purpose

and meaning and all that don't really mean much if you can't get a job. Yeah. Purpose and meaning don't mean much if you can't get a job. And the opposite is obviously true as well. Like if you've got a great job, but you don't have purpose and meaning. That's, that is what's happening for many people right now in the workforce. And we live in a performance obsessed culture. Certainly in the West, performance is driving so much of the anxiousness for so many of us. So we have to be okay. So this idea that I am not somebody without having a title or a big something or something shiny. That's not a new idea. So a performance-obsessed culture creates performance-obsessed people.

And this question really is about flipping it around. Like, what if I do it differently? If that person was here with us, I'd say, well, how do you think about the good life? And I'd just pause and have them open it up. And they would say it. They would say their philosophy, either like, I want to be the world's best and I'm concerned I'm not going to do it with well-being. Or they flip it around and say, no, I want to have a sense of holistic health and I'm concerned I'm not going to do it. So I would listen to the ordering of what they really want, because you can do life however you want.

You've got an orange hat on. Oh, and a gold tooth. This is a new one. Keep it trill. Craig, I keep it trill. You can do life however you want. There's no right way or wrong way. And, I mean, let's make it extreme for a minute.

The king and queen in the castle that has everything, but they don't like how they feel to be inside themselves. Flip that around. A person who is homeless does not have any of the celebrated mechanisms of life, meaning the big house, the big car, the big watch type of stuff, but they are happy and joyful and they see people. And this is an extreme example, of course, which one would you rather be? And I would ask that question to this person and which, like, honestly, which one would you rather be? Why are you laughing, Sam? Let me get it out. If I'm being truly honest and I'll, you're my family, I can't lie to you.

We bonded. In a perfect world, I would like to say I want to be both. But, and I'm going to quote Kanye West. I'm just quoting. I saw, I know. I'm going to quote Kanye West. I'm just quoting. I'm just quoting. I know. I'm just quoting something. When he says having money is not everything, but not having it is. I grew up poor and in a ghetto in the projects. I mean, I just know what it's like to have your heat turned off and you're freezing. I know what it's like to watch my mom work three jobs and be gone from five in the morning till one o'clock in the morning. I know what it's like to have kids tease me that I'm wearing other people's clothes. I know what that's like. I think I agree with what you're saying because obviously- No, I'm not making a statement. I'm just saying,

which would you rather have? Give me the money and the accolades and all that and i'll work backwards and then work backwards then i'll figure it out yeah and then at what point this is a like a real question at what point would you say i'm gonna go figure it out because most people don't right they keep going i need a little bit more like Once I crack this million, then I'll get that million. And then once I get this. So the thinking that gets you there usually requires some sort of unearthing, some sort of radical thing that takes place in our lives to change our thinking. So the thinking that gets you that thinking will get you to a certain place. And then the question is, at what point would you say, let me do me differently? Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment

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and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by david protein i'm pretty intentional about what i eat and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods and when i'm traveling or in between meals on a demanding day certainly i need something quick that will support the way that i feel and think and perform and that's why i've been leaning on david protein bars and so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening.

I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day. One a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell.

Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And

that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. How does one get there?

How do you attain a certain greatness? Let's just say, yeah, I made 50 million. How do I've been able to meet, my wife, who's with us today. Hi, Lisa. I need somebody that's going to hold up a mirror and say, you're saying this, but you're acting this way. And so I'm not sure that I would know another way other than that or some sort of radical trauma. But we also know that most people that go through a trauma, most people don't fundamentally change their psychological framework. And so trauma alone won't do it. It's something else that takes place. And so I'm not optimistic in the idea that we can change our framework without real consistent loving kindness, mirror-holding fire-breathing,

and or something traumatic where you've got a community of people to say, hey, listen, I see you, and let me help you through this. Okay, so I think most people would probably answer the way you answered. I would answer the same way. And I know the trap. I don't want to live. I know what the same way. And I know the trap. I don't want to live... I know that what the Zen position would be, like this dichotomy is stupid. Why are we even bringing this up? But just to kind of drill down to something, I don't want to live homeless. I like the natural conditions

of safety and warmth and knowing that where my food is. But I've also... I have an unfair advantage because I've spent so much time working on my inner life and helping other people do the same that it's hard for me to even think the other way. But let's ask the room. Show of hands. No FOPO. Show of hands here. How many of you would choose the castle and be a bit miserable? And how many of you... Let's go there first. How many would choose that as an option? And then how many would choose the other? Like, no, no, give me a box and I want joy and happiness. That's pretty rad. How many are in the same way for both? Okay. So this room is about split, right?

There's about half of you who said, I want the castle, and I'll figure it out. And some of you said, no, give me the box, and then I'll figure out money, I guess. Were you thinking that when you answered that question? Yeah, that you'll figure out how to get out of the box? Yeah, cool. Okay. Oh, I thought you were throwing your hand out. Go on, go on.

What's your question? Yeah, we were making an extreme, I was making an extreme position just as a starting point. I think you can have it all. I think that you can have joy and happiness and also celebrate in all of the riches that you can imagine. I think you can have it all.

Now, money is a finite, there's only so much dollars in the world, but I think that you can have it all. And that's really what this work is. It's the balancing between being and doing. Being yourself, being happy, content, connected, have a sense of flourishing, and have the doing be right on the razor's edge where you're able to figure out what you're capable of and have that growth arc and contribute to something bigger than you. That's the essence of what I would call a good life. Having that yin and yang between being and doing. So the answer, the simple answer is yes. The second question is like, how do you get to that place? I think that's hard work. Yeah, let's go here first. So my question was, how does what drives you to work really hard in that scenario affect your awareness to flip the switch between continuing to work really hard or focusing on your well-being?

So, for example, one of the things that drives me often, and I don't really know, it kind of feels negative, but is the fear of not working hard enough or looking back and regretting not putting everything I had into it. So I guess my question is, how does what drives you affect how you kind of look at things and how you balance your life and have a positive driver, I guess? To go from a fear-based to something else. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, so the being and doing piece is a daily commitment. And it's a full-time job.

And I think that that is our job. To know how to be ourselves and to work to the edges of our capacity to figure out how to grow. That's the human job. And when you do that with other people for a shared purpose, whether that's partners for a purpose, whether that's partners for a child or that's partners in a business or that's a bunch of partners for a global

change, it's a daily bit of work. And so the fear-based thing gets people enough anxiety and agitation to work really hard, but the being part is compromised. And so a little bit of anxiousness is not terrible. You know, that's fine. But clinical anxiety is a very hard internal state to be in over time. And periods of anxiety, even if it meets the clinical level, that's okay. You can figure it out. But when you, we don't know how to just kind of settle in, in any environment. It's such a unsettling way of living that it's considered a disordered way of living.

It's that, it's that toxic, if you will, from the inside. And I know it, I lived it, it's hard. And so that's the being bit. And if you don't do the internal work, I think that we're all going to find ourselves in some sort of unhealthy way of living with the world, I think. So it's a full-time job every day. And the fears of like, did I work hard enough? That'll likely get you going. But that is not a sustainable fuel. So if you can replace that with a compelling future, an idea of what you would like to see and be part of, and let that fuel you as opposed to missing out, blowing it, not working hard enough.

I don't know if that helps, but that's... Okay, very cool. Yeah. Question. Considering how much effort's been put in to pay attention to our mental well-being, say over the last five to ten years, there's an inflection point. It's now part of the public conversation. Do you feel more optimistic that more people can see a pathway towards doing both at the same time?

I've got a clear answer, but I want to get your take on it. You know, when I was listening to your question, it made me think of, I've come across people who, and maybe these are anomalies, I don't know, but I've come across people who are wildly successful, but they care nothing about the success and they never chased it and they never tried to do anything. They were focused on their mental well-being and the things that mattered in the world and whatnot. And it seemed like the more they did that, the more success and everything fell into their laps. With that being said, I don't know. They're a smaller number than the

people that are chasing. I do have faith that, you know, now that we're focusing on mental well-being, for corporate companies and everyone, they're going to be like, hey, you know what? Let's work a four-day work week because I don't think it's pure. I think it's coming from that, listen, I'm not trying to get in trouble or canceled.

You can only work four days, buddy, no problem. You know, I think the trying to get in trouble or canceled. You can only work four days, buddy. No problem. I think the intention is still the old school intention. So I don't know. I don't know. I think there's a revolution happening right now. And I think it's pretty radical. I think the cool kids have stepped out and said, I'm not doing it like this anymore. And those are my heroes, the ones that have a lot to lose and speak truth. And so it is a radical commitment to yourself and or your community to say, wait, hold on, there's a better way and I'm not doing it anymore. And we are in the midst right now, I think, going from the extraction industrial revolution model. Let me pull the best out

of you and I'll take a pound and give you a quarter pound back. And I'm going to pull the best out of you. You might not know your kids, but you're going to build widgets better for Wall Street or the company. And we're going from the extraction to the unlocking model. And the unlocking is like, no, there's a bigger game here. And that bigger game is I need to see you and understand you and support you and challenge you and help you in every way that I possibly can because you've already demonstrated you want

to be part of this bigger purpose. So we're in the midst of that right now. I think it's a revolution, a radical revolution for human potential that's happening. Because if we don't invest in our psychological skills, our internal skills, I mean, really, what else is there at some point? So do I have hope? A lot of hope. And it's not because policy is changing. It's because the radical revolutionists are saying, I'm not doing it anymore. So we all, Finding Mastery needs to do it. We need to put

our flag in the ground and say, look, I'm going to kick ass and be happy. And I'm going to do both of those. And you can't, if the equation is off, hey, I'm going to, you know, there's a joke at Finding Mastery, like make sure that we're not hiring people that just want avocado toast. They just want the lifestyle. Like, yeah, that's cool. But let's make sure that like when you say, hey, I've got to go do something with the fam or I'm going to go do something that there's never a second question. There's never like, yeah, how much time? Like, how are your numbers? No, it's obvious. Like, I'm pouring into everything and everywhere I go, everyone and everywhere I go, because

I'm replenished and I want to make sure that I'm being great across all my disciplines. It's possible. I'll give you one. I'll wrap it up, this question with it, is that I spent some time with one of the biggest financial institutions on the planet. And the president of the organization, I'm sorry, the CEO of the organization is the top 200 folks. And he says, how many of you are getting eight hours of sleep a night? This is his top 200 across his company. And probably about 40% of the room raised their hand. And he was like,

how many of you are doing your hobby at the level that you would like to be doing it? Bunch of those hands went down. A couple came up. How many of you are doing something extraordinary at least three times a year, either by yourself or with your family. And then most of the hands went down. So they're grinding. And his message to them was like, and he says, look, I'm doing all those. I've golfed 15 times. I'm getting eight hours of sleep. And I've gone on three expeditions, let's call it. So his message to his top 200 earners, which are probably making on average, I don't know, $7 million a year, you can do it. He goes, if I can do it, you can do it. And he's creating air cover. So what that means as leaders in your field, what we have to do is create air cover for what is possible. Hold the standard. Make sure you're recovering now because I'm counting on you.

Hold the standard of recovery and hold the standard of applied excellence and have those to be a consistent bell that's being rung every day. For what reason? For the collective purpose that we've all agreed to pour into. And if we can get that thing right, culture is pretty cool. And I think we are capable of doing more. That's a question for you to wrestle with, for us to wrestle with. Do you fundamentally believe that humans are capable of more? And if you don't think that, then it's a different equation. At Finding Mastery, we do. I fundamentally think we're capable of far more. But that's the equation. High recovery, high stress.

It can come in lots of configurations. Connect to the purpose. Make sure all the basic needs are put in place. That's why you want to pay people properly, so basic needs are never an issue. And you have a shared vision on top of it. So I hope that answers it. That's a long way of saying I'm bullish.

Do you have faith that that will happen? I think we live at the most incredible time in history. Even with all the crap that's happening in the world, I think we're at this unbelievable inflection point that we're thinking about life and the pursuit of happiness and career and health much differently, not everywhere, but I think there's a growing critical mass to push it over the edge in a good way.

So no, I'm optimistic, naively so, but I do believe the conversation is changing. It just needs to be more frequent, and it needs to be louder, and it needs to be more consistent. That's it. That's cool. That's a gangster answer.

I love that. And I love kick ass and be happy, too. Yeah. We're going to make some T-shirts, kick ass and be happy. All. We're going to make some T-shirts. Kick ass and be happy. All right. Second one from Priya. I've always been a bit skeptical about self-help industrial complex, which seems to me like it often profits from people's insecurities by promising quick fixes or external solutions. In your view, how can consumers critically evaluate the effectiveness of self-development programs and distinguish between those that offer real value and those that are merely capitalizing on human vulnerability? Oh, yeah. That's a cool question because

I think there's times to be skeptical and pause and really have a discernment about you. So I don't want to be a skeptic, but I want to have deep discernment. I want to have the ability to understand what's in front of me and have some abilities to be able to open it up and really understand it. So discernment is what this question is about. And what's embedded in this question for me is that there's lots of snake oil. I want to be a better version of me. I want to grow. I want to something. How do I discern what is something that is time-tested and something that is predatorial? If you can track lineage, I think that you're probably going to, as a first pass, if there's some lineage there, it's probably pretty good.

That might be a safe bet. If you find value in that lineage and it's not something that you're like, what is that lineage about? So that's the discernment within that first pass. Let me say it again. One, is there a lineage? And that can be a spiritual lineage. It could be a coaching lineage of like this NFL coach, this NFL coach, this NFL coach, and that philosophy is somewhere apparent. And or it could be a science-based. And so it's like this person was influenced by this and da-da-da-da-da. And there's a mentorship along there. So if there's a lineage, I think you probably got something. And then you open up like does that lineage make sense to me? And there's lots of cults.

There's lots of organizations that I would not want to be part of that lineage. That would be the first. Has it stood up for the test of time? And can I track it? The second is, when I read it, so first, you've got to dig in. You can't just do it from, judge a book by its cover. You've got to actually investigate in some way. How do I feel when I'm going through? Do I feel seen and understood that there's a timeliness to these messages? Or is it something that feels like I'm being

baited to buy something new? So the marketers of self-help are better than almost all scientists, better than almost all spiritualists. So I'm going to separate those three veins in this way. It's like, how do I feel when I'm absorbed in the activity? And if I feel like there's, oh, it's okay to be here, it's okay to be me, then I'm probably going to be like, yeah, that's good. Okay, there's some wisdom that I'm working from. The third vector that I use is, does it hold up in observable ways? So is there a body of work, not lineage and not feeling, but is there a body of work that's held up under the scrutiny of some sort of pressure, meaning that that person has done something. Now, they might be brand new on the block, and it might be the Dalai Lama when he

was 12 years old. Now, he's on it. But for me, I don't know how to discern that yet. And he's spent a lot of time there. And so if I don't have the luxury of time, is there body work I can rest on? Is there lineage? And how do I feel when I'm absorbed in it? Those are the three passes that help me think about this industry that is fraught with marketeers. And there's a tribe for everybody. So what works for me doesn't need to work for you. And I think that holds up in martial arts as well. lineage bit how it feels to be coached or around those folks right and then with that one i just boxed you in and then and those people like that that you're being coached by you're like oh yeah okay like this person's done something yeah one more layer on it let's take it to financial services or legal or whatever they if if i'm

going to a financial services person that's going to help guide money for my family, they need to have demonstrated that they know how to work with money. Now, I don't want to just see if they have a nice fancy car, but does it make sense? Do I like how it feels when they're talking about it? Have they done it themselves? And do they have some sort of lineage that I can point to that goes, oh, there's something grounded here that's held up for a time. The martial arts thing was a good analogy. I was waiting for the but.

Yeah, but. Not only was it a great analogy, I'm going to take a backdoor here. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters.

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You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. You know, it's funny because when I think about the self-help industry, I'm currently going through therapy right now. And one of my biggest hangups about therapy is I've always been like, man, you human just like me. How you gonna tell me how to fix my life? You got problems too. You telling me all this stuff, but you go home

and you got all these things going on. The most classic thing, right? Do you have a little attitude with this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right, yeah, yeah. I do. I do. Man, I do.

Yeah, right. But I, man, I do. Yeah, right. But I'm still seeing my therapist. And when I talk to my therapist, they make great points. Like, they make great points. They point out some amazing things. And I'm like, oh, that's true. I do feel like that. You see me.

I feel seen. But in that same moment, I'm like, man, you probably got a drinking problem. I'm just saying. I'm not saying they have a drinking problem, but you probably got a drinking problem. I battle with that. Probably. Probably, right? Yeah. I know it's an old school mentality. But I wouldn't even say it's almost 100% certainty that that psychologist or therapist has something that their trauma is like, that it's still there. The enlightened, the truly enlightened are very, very few. Wisdom is even more rare, but more available. People with deep insight, there's more folks with deep insight. And then there's a bunch of folks that are just chilling something or they're early on their path. But 100% of that, other than the truly enlightened, have something that they're trying to work on themselves. The best psychological practices or therapy is not when someone goes, oh, that.

They say, wait, tell me more. And they're really interested in what you just said and where that came from and where that came from and how that shaped how you're doing now and where that, like they're more interested in understanding the fullness of you as opposed to saying the smart thing, right? And so what you're really getting is somebody that is kind and caring. You're getting somebody that is paid to attend to you. So this is why it's it's not sustainable, but it's a good it's a good marker for what it feels like to be in a relationship where someone is invested in you. And they're using good science with good tools. So that's kind of what the best is of it. You don't necessarily walk

out of a therapy session and be like, I feel amazing. You might walk out of it like, I got, man, I'm kind of like, yeah, I'm glad I'm here because I'm kind of a mess. So the worst thing that happens at the end of therapy is like, you're good. That's a terrible fix. So if you get that, maybe say, have you said any of this to your psychologist or your therapist? Have I said? Say, I'm over here judging you. No, I haven't said that. I haven't said that. I think you're alcoholic. I'm not said that

because they're human and I don't want to... But this is about you and that framing that's inside of you, that person, if they're good, they'll go now I see. Okay. Yes. They're not going to get on their heels. Like, Whoa, what do you mean? I'm a drunk. Like, this isn't about me. It's about you. And like, it'll be like, oh, there. It's the honest expression of what's happening. When you bring that forward, I would, I'd double down that your rate of growth would be exponential. I need one of you guys to jump in because it's coming about me.

Sam? Sam? Sam? Oh, my God. About me. Sam? We keep doing this. Sam? Oh, my God. The question I had originally come in with was... When I said, I can't believe you're here, actually. I wasn't going to bring it up.

Wild. Yeah, I know. Do you want to share it with the room, or maybe you already have? So 20 years ago, I was 14. I tore my ACL the night before the biggest game of our season. I was a freshman. My sister had just won like all the championships, went off to college. So it was like my job to continue that.

It's a legendary family. Like really, really well known. And volleyball. So yeah, I have no idea how we met you, but I remember the first day I walked in. It's not that I didn't want to be there, but I was like, dude, I'm hurt. Like, what are you going to do? And in like, I don't know, 40 seconds, I will never forget the first thing he asked me. And he was like, what was the first thing you thought when you got hurt?

I was like, do not call my parents. And he was like, okay, I know where to go from here. Yeah, right. That's what he was all there for. Yeah. But yeah, I think that he's right in saying, tell them more and you will receive more in return. But yeah, my question is, do you still ask people about the first thing they think when they get hurt or experience trauma to try to like guide where they're really at? Or is that an old, old technique?

No, I think it was calling for that moment. And some people can handle that question, and some people it's overwhelming. And my job in that instance would have been to hold the space for whatever your experience is there. So if you were to fall into a thousand pieces, I'll hold that. If you were to get mad, I would hold that. If you were to give direction, then I would follow that as well. So no, it's not, that necessarily wasn't a technique. It was, I was really interested in what was happening in the moment because there was so much of your identity was built around being an athlete. So that was my way to try to understand if that was an identity thing. And it really was like who,

who you are. Yeah. And so it screamed, screamed, play for yourself, not your parents. Is that, yeah, right. So don't answer this if you don't want to, but when you were asked that question, you were forced to give an answer. Do you remember after that, what happened for you? Like in that, in the next 30 seconds? Yeah. I cried immediately. And you were forced to give an answer. Do you remember after that what happened for you? Like in the next 30 seconds? Yeah, I cried immediately. And you were like, why didn't you want to tell your parents? I was like, my dad lost his career by tearing his ACL. So I can't, like quitting is not an option.

And everyone is like so afraid of an ACL tear. And like looking back, I would honestly say that's such an easy recovery in comparison to other things but yeah in the moment I was just like I can't let my dad down yeah right yeah and so that was apparent like oh that's my thing yeah cool awesome you she just helps you out a lot. Appreciate you, Sam. You need your trill gold, too. We're going to be trill together. Can I have rose gold?

You got rose gold? You got rose gold? You're demanding right now. You know, I'm going to need something from you. You know who I'm talking to? My pal back there. Do you have any questions? I know you do. Going talking to my pal back there you have any questions i know you do going back to the

first question we covered kind of the extreme example of only everything else everything else is full but there's no wealth and i think that creates a distinction of and i realize it's intentional distinction but you have if you have wealth you can buy the inner life or if you have the inner life you can get yourself to wealth which i realized the purpose of this is to say like no it's do both simultaneously and you two both referenced both indirectly and directly how important your inner life was to become who you are today and the trajectory you're on now what had to be true outside for you to develop the inner lives that you did now and could you have developed them had you been further ahead in your trajectory than today?

I'll take the first part. What was true for me is immaterial for everyone else in this room. And so my truth, I'm happy to share as a story, but it is actually immaterial. The question is like, what needs to be true for me right now to be able to change? Because I think that's what you're looking for. Like, what are the insights or what are the things that you went through? And I'll share all of it. I'm not dodging the question. So that as the receiver of that information, you can say, yeah, I could hook around that, or I could, that, okay, I see that I could do something with that part of it for you.

So the question is a great question. What needs to be true is a wonderful way to frame just about anything. And it's a hard question to answer for somebody else. So I would play it back and say, what needs to be true for you to do the inner work that you are not yet doing now? And so you don't need to answer it. But what needed to be true for me was I needed to be sick and tired of being sick and tired. I needed to be, I need to get to enough of a, the fuck, to like, I can't keep doing it like this.

And again, I needed a loving truth teller to help me with that. And I needed to be honest with myself that the way that I'm doing it now does not yield the future that I would hope. So that dissonance, call it suffering. Suffering is having something you don't want or wanting something that you don't have, that type of suffering, when you really feel it, can create change. So it's going inside, feeling, and how does that happen? Either something outside of you jostles that, or you get really quiet and you listen. And so I was fortunate to have both. And so that's what needed to be true is enough connection to the suffering to say, how do I, what can I do to be able to shapeshift the way that my thinking works and my behaviors take place so that I can be part of the future that I'd like to see?

Does that help? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And then what was the second part of the question? I took the first. I thought I was going to ask you, what was the second part of the question i took the first i thought i was going to ask you what was the second part of the question could you have gone to in developing that inner life assume again we're going back to the example like let's say all the riches came let's say you're one in a billion today could you develop the inner life that you valued today to become the person you are had you started at that place? If I had, it was one in a billion, he said. I don't know, man. I'm going to be honest with you.

I really don't know because there's a lot of things that I've wanted in my life that I've achieved and I forgot that I wanted them, you know? And it took someone to remind me. Remember you wanted to move to L.A.? Now you're in L.A. Oh. Remember you wanted to be on TV? Now you get on TV.

Oh. Remember you wanted... I keep forgetting what I wanted because I see something in front of me that I want now. So... So that goes back to the first question, which is the thinking that gets us here. Yeah. It's like that thinking will get us to tomorrow. Yeah. Like I want something. to tomorrow yeah like i want something i want something i want something goal orientation is like the the the flowering

of the identity of performance and so that's that part i was talking about earlier like so the way i just answered this was like what jostles us yeah right and unfortunately like us. And unfortunately, sometimes I think I'm hardheaded. And so I wish I wasn't, but that's part of my family heritage. And so if I was more sensitive in some ways, I probably would have changed earlier, but I'm hardheaded. And so it takes a little bit longer to get the changes. So what were the changes that you've gone through that you're like, you know what? I have made some shifts in my thinking, in the way that I operate.

Having things taken away from me that I wanted. So that was the part of suffering. Yeah, yeah. Losing. Something I wanted that I no longer have. I no longer have because I took it for granted. Or, again, I forgot that I wanted. So that was the part of suffering. Yeah. Yeah. Losing. Something I wanted that I no longer have. I no longer have because I took it for granted or again, I forgot that I wanted it. And when it was snatched away, I was like, oh, this felt good. You know, having it snatched away. But I guess my, and that's such a great question because my revolving door question is, how much is enough? When do I stop?

When do I just say I'm good? When do I say that, right? I don't know. Made me take my orange hat off of that, bro. Yeah. I don't know. I think that's a real question for all of us to discern. And even billionaires ask themselves that same question.

Yeah. When is enough enough? Sam, I was looking for you to bail me out of that question. You didn't say nothing. Yes, please. Okay. I love your work, your podcast, your book. I've learned a lot.

I wish I would have learned that 20 years ago when I first became a mom. We are a sports family and high performance identity. I could relate to a lot of that. But my question related to sports also in the corporate world, habits are hard to break. How do you rewire your brain to change habits related to FOPO? Related to FOPO? Fear of people's opinions? Okay. So some of the basic science around change, let me answer it with that first, and then we'll add some flour to it or some flowery approaches. So start small, make it easy, have it be delightful. Like starting in those small ways, for example, if you want to exercise more, get your shoes out the night. If you're going to exercise in the morning and that's the best time

to do it, get your shoes out the night before, put them by your door. So, and then celebrate that. We're not going to celebrate the 12 mile run. We're going to celebrate just putting our shoes because we're taking some action towards the thing we want to shift. And then when you actually go and put your shoes on, you haven't even gone out the door yet. You could stop there. That's how small of actions I'm talking about and be like, I did that. I got up and I did that. I'm not going to run today. No problems. So it's not the grandness of the thing. Then we celebrate along the way. So you're doing a couple of things when you do that. One, you're coaching yourself.

You're hydrating yourself. You are training your mind to celebrate the things that are aligned with purpose, with your vision, with your goals, right? And then over time, you start to stack those together. And then before you know it, it starts to work its way out. So that's one way to do it. Now, when it comes to fear of people's opinions, it's a radical shift from a performance-based identity to a purpose-based identity.

That's the big one. And so how do you do that? How do you develop your purpose? Give yourself time. Be in conversations with people that are either wanting to find their purpose and or their purpose is very clear read about purpose practice thin slicing of purpose so those are three right be around people read about it you know to understand it and you can be reading about the greats or you could be reading about the science of it and then the last is practice it in thin slice ways.

And those thin slices are in the morning when you wake up, what is my purpose for today? What is my purpose for getting the kids out before school starts? So you could chunk it in very manageable ways. And then when you do those things, like, right, this is me practicing being on purpose. Now let me go read my book on purpose and let me have the conversation

with somebody later in the day about purpose. That's that kind of full commitment that it does take to do something as grand as knowing your purpose. Start small, celebrate along the way, and be in a community of people that are more further along the path or equally as committed that you are. And that's how I would say to structure it. Does that help? Yes. Yeah. Do you want me to be more specific about FOPO? Sure. Yeah. Okay. So if the thing that is holding somebody back is this chronic narrative, like right now, what are you thinking of me? As opposed, and that's what's keeping me tied up. That's my job. That is my job to figure out how do I want to relate to other

people. And the first order business of change is feeling that suffering and or pain. And so be honest with yourself about it. And so what that means is like, I don't like how I feel when another person is quietly looking at me. That's on me. It's not on you. So I don't like how I feel when another person is quietly looking at me. That's on me. It's not on you. So I don't like how I feel. So how am I going to change that? Well, I don't know. So I need to write about it. I'm going to talk to people about it, or I'm going to be quiet about it and listen and feel my way through that. So those would be the three practices that would precede the behavioral change. Does that help? Yes.

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the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. On the topic of enough, how much enough is enough, what do you both, how do you both define success as it relates to that question? I think both happiness and I want to be able to travel, feed my family, feed myself, but

I want happiness. I think an excess of money obviously won't bring about that because I know tons of people that are like that, but I think having that equal balance. Are you successful? Man. Well, because we're talking about it. All right, I'll let you have the hook here. No, no, no, I'm going to answer it. I'm going to answer it. Are you successful? Man.

Well, because we talked about it. All right, I'll let you have the here. No, no, no, I'm going to answer it. But we talk about success like it's later. Yeah. You know, like one day I'll be, or like when I line up enough, that will happen. Like, are you successful? Are you smiling? I don't want to give a cliche answer.

I'm, at times I feel extremely successful. Okay. Is your definition of success, which is happiness and being able to provide for self and others? Yes. Is your definition of success dependent on the market conditions to be favorable for you to be able to be that? Does the external world need to dictate that sense of success? I don't think so. I don't think so. Ask that question again. If it's easier when you walk into a room and people are like, you're amazing. You are so great. You are so

wonderful. I just wish that I had some kind of life like yours. Like, how did you do it? And you're propped up in a way. It's easy to feel successful because the world gave it to you. But then when you go home or you're privately in your car or somebody has said something sideways to you or you got really difficult news that you're working with, can you still have a sense of joy that underpins the experience? Okay. I, much like I would assume everyone in this room,

loves adulation. I want to be adored. I want people to walk in and say, oh, Neil's here. We all want that, right? We all would like that. But I have been through enough to be down on my luck

and still believe in myself and believe that I can rise myself up. So yes. Yes. Yeah. So success doesn't have to be later. So that's internal success and external success. So we can bifurcate the two and you could put a scorecard on them. You could like, you could do that if you wanted to like financial success, internal success. Let's

just pick those two vectors. And the internal, the internal one is 100% under your control. That's really what our community is about. Investing in your inner life so that you can have whatever operating definition of success that you want. Now, investing in your life, just like you invest in anything that mattered to you, you would check in.

You would take care of it. You would really want to understand whether you're giving your money or your time or you're massing a community to help something. You really want to understand whether you're giving your money or your time or you're massing a community to help something. You really want to understand what's happening. The same thing is true for your inner life. You have to invest in it. That's time under tension. So that's meditating. It's that, that, that, that, that, all those things. Time under tension. Now on the external, I don't know, put whatever numbers

that are interesting to you. And then when you think about being a global citizen, that's another vector that we could add to it. What does a compelling future in that frame look like? So you've got the internal, you've got the external financially, and then what is the global condition that you're working towards? And then the others, relational. Like, is my relationships with experience and others and the planet healthy? Is it successful? So those are the vectors I think about. And I want to have all of them. Now, the one that is always available right now is my internal success.

And it is not market condition dependent. And so, of course, I'm not perfect by any means. So in a hard conversation, I can be defensive. I can revert back to parts of me that I don't want to be. But they still are trained for so many years that they come forward. And so I have to wrestle like, oh, I did it again. OK, how am I going to do better? And then make a commitment to doing that.

And when I, over time, as a work in progress, then I think we end up buffering our ability to be manipulated by the external world over time. So when we do the internal work, it's a little bit like an orange. And you know how there's some oranges that have this really thin skin around them? And if you were to drop it from 15 feet, it would crack open because of the thin skin. When you do the internal work, it's like

you build the white stuff between the skin and the fruit. And the more of that white stuff, the greater the impact you can take when the external world is not favorable for what you think that you want to deserve. So it's a long way of saying, like, when it comes to success, you decide what your vectors are, what your variables are, and then you invest in them. The one that is tricky is relationships, because that one does require another person. But then if you want to take your power, your agency back into it, is that how do I want to be with people?

And now you're back in the driver's seat. So I hope that's not oversimplifying what you would already imagine, but that would be a way to, like a systems way of thinking through it. Thank you. Yeah. I have another question, if a systems way of thinking through it. Thank you. Yeah. I have another question, if you don't mind. If you don't mind. Yep.

Please. I was wondering how you both think the role of, or how much of the role of silence or the lack of, plays a role in the levels of joy in our world today. Silence plays a role in the level of joy, meaning holding back feelings, not speaking your mind? Meaning, good question on my question. Meaning, mainly meaning like always pushing forward, always doing something, always having something to do, always being on our phones. Kind of being with yourself and not always being with others and kind of always have stuff to do. And I think that's paramount.

And I'm going to use myself as an example because right now I'm... Right now I suffer from that, right? I'm reading the questions. That's the only reason I have this phone. But my name is O'Neal Christopher Cesspedes, and I'm addicted to my phone. Welcome, Chris. Appreciate that. Appreciate that.

And I think that one of the main reasons, I cannot believe I'm about to tell y'all this. Tripping. One of the main reasons why I think I'm addicted to my phone and I don't want to sit alone in silence by myself is because I'm afraid what the silence will say to me. So I'd rather look on Shade Room or ESPN or go to YouTube and watch something about giant killer bugs, which I do often for some reason. Anything that I, anytime I can find some escapism, I go there. Then I go to sleep. And I dream of what I would like my world to be like, and then I wake up and I'm not dreaming anymore. So I dream through the phone.

Is it legitimately getting in the way of the way that you're doing life? Or is it something that is like, I just know I can do better? I can do better. Both. Both. Both. Both. So I mean, to answer your question, yes, I think my mom used to

say this to me when I was a kid. I don't know why it hasn't penetrated, but she used to tell me to put everything away and go somewhere and get away from everyone and just sit with myself. She used to stress that to me all the time, just get away from everything. 20 minutes, 30 minutes, just go drive somewhere and sit in your car. Man, that's a scary thing, at least for me, because some crazy thoughts come to my mind, you know? Yeah, thank you for that. Because I understand that, too.

I, like, really understand that. There's so much chemical, ease of chemical inducement from our phones that I can find the same thing like Reflexively just going to that for some stimulation. So it's a really good question and There's there's a gentleman here that we have built his business around pause You know breathe and reflect right like those that's the mantra of your business. And so what a great formula to pause, take a breath, and then think or feel your way through whatever the situation is. It's a great formula. And we, when we're writing the book, Kevin and I found a bit of research that the experimenter would bring a subject in and give the person a shock.

And it was like, oh. And so they would say to the person, well, they knew they were going to be shocked. And they would say to the person, how was that? And they said, that's terrible. This is a terrible experience. And then they put them in a room where they were quiet, where they had alone time. Come to find out that the majority of people moved over to the shocking thing, the shock themselves, as opposed to sitting with themselves. This thing we say we want is more quiet time. They would rather choose a painful thing to stimulate them to not be alone with their thoughts. So being alone with our thoughts is a scary and difficult thing.

It's both. Because what comes up, you might not like. And it's difficult to just keep getting in the gap, keep following yourself in the gap. There's a, it's called Joppa meditation. Is anyone practicing Joppa by chance? So Joppa meditation is this beautiful ancient meditation that you could take, let's take a poem, if you will, or a song from a lyric or your personal philosophy or whatever, whatever comes

up. You could even take a word. Let me just do a word. Give me a word that matters to you. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. So then you would see that word, quiet your mind down, and get yourself to a place that you can focus on that word. And that's hard in and of itself to do. Then you see that word. Let's say you pick the background color. Let's just do black for right now. And then you pick a contrasting color.

Let's say white of each letter of the word. And then when you breathe in, you see the fullness of the word. And then on the exhale, you go in between the gap, in between the space between the A and the L. And as you go into that space, into a nothingness, you get a quick hit of nothingness. And it's not overwhelming because you're just in there for a moment on the exhale and you pause at the bottom. And then when you're ready, you come back.

And then you zoom back in and you see the A-L-L. And then you kind of move that gap between the L and the L. And then you drive your attention in between those two letters. And then just pause there. So it's an ancient meditation that is about getting into the space between and getting into the gap, getting into the silence. Meditation is about silence, stillness, and space. And practicing that, especially with all the available stimulation of today, is really important. I'm better when I'm practicing, and I do make a commitment to do at least 30 seconds a day. It's not the 20 minutes that you might imagine. But that's where, you know, sometimes it's just 30 seconds,

and I'm doing it before I even get out of bed. But it's just a little bit, just a couple breaths can make a big difference too. Thank you. Of course. I'm sure everyone here heard the bells of St. John the Baptist. We are at 24030, a beautiful, beautiful space. This space is interesting to me, kind of cool because it's right next door to the,

and I'm going to make it about me, right next door to the Enzo Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy. I love Jiu-Jitsu. I've been doing it 20 years. So, you know. The city is alive. We wanted to do this event here because New York City is alive. And we wanted all of that vibe in what we're doing. And to have the juxtaposition of making it intimate and as honest as we possibly can.

So, yeah, that's cool. It was right on time with Hallelujah. Any more questions? I knew you had a question. O'Neill and I will do our best to wear you out. How did you know? How did I know? Because you were staring at me. Dr. Mike, Craig Siegel, great to see you again. I see you, Craig. Thank you for having me on your podcast.

This is awesome. Absolutely great conversation today. Question for you. When I coach people, high achievers, whether it's business, spirituality, personal development, whatever it is they want to improve upon, back in the day, I used to just want to help everybody. But now, for me, I'm almost qualifying them to make sure that they have that desire. And if they don't have the desire, they at least have the desire to have the desire. But if not, I feel like it's going to be a waste of time. I wrestle with this often, and I'd love to ask you, do you think you can teach somebody desire or do they have to have that within them? Cool question. I understand the theory of motivation, but I don't really understand how to work with somebody that doesn't

have that, we'll use your word, desire. So I don't know. I like to think theoretically that it's inside of all of us a yearning to be more and to do more, to have that balance between the two, to make a contribution to the coral reef of humanity and to honestly, authentically be themselves more often. I do think that that is inside of all of us. There's a lot of things that get in the way. Like my dad grew up on a wish sandwich.

Do you know what that is? What wish sandwich? Two pieces of bread and I wish I had some meat. You never heard that. I've never heard that before. Wish sandwich. Wish sandwich. So there's a lot of things that get in the way, you know, from a family history, from a safety issue in the home.

There's a lot of things that get in the way. And I'm being dramatic for that because there's a desire to take care of themselves. The desire to look cool, to play cool, to be kind of a jerk, to keep distance. That's a desire for something. So the idea of amotivation, unmotivated, I don't think exists in humans. Survival of the species, you know, natural selection, there is something inside of us. Now, the way that we express it comes in lots of forms. So if you were a different type of coach or if I was a different psychologist and I could find like an appreciation or a fit with people that are struggling to let go, struggling to,

not let go, struggling to have a fire because I understand it in that way, then that would be a good fit for me. So theoretically, I think that we all have it. The way that it's expressed takes a lot of different shapes and forms. And I'm in awe of people that what they have to carry through life. There's some heavy bags that get dropped on our front door and some heavy, you know, most people don't want trauma. Like, I don't know anyone that does. And I don't know anyone that is the villain in their own story.

And so, like, we're trying to figure some stuff out. I would not discount the folks that don't present with a burn to get better. I would not discount them. I would want to understand them first. And I also don't work, I do not work with people that do not, I'll use your word, have desire. You know, I'm not good with them. I love it. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks, man. Finding Mastery is brought to you by iRestore. When it comes to my health, I try to approach things with a proactive mindset. It's not about avoiding poor health. This is about creating the conditions for growth. Now, hair health is one of

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and then plus an extra $50 on us, because quality sleep is just too important to leave to chance. Dr. Mike, you get a lot of questions about high performance for obvious reasons. Thank you for having me on your podcast. I think we're talking again in a few weeks, so I appreciate that. But what is a question that you almost never get in regards to high performance, but people should ask you because the answer is so important? That's a cool question, Terry. I'm not asked about the home life of high performers. So we want to celebrate the hero and we want to think that it's just that person,

that there's some sort of formula or steps for success and core foundational skills that that person needs to be great. And if I could fit the ones in me that I can see in them that I could maybe do that. I'm rarely, if never, asked about the family life of the best in the world. That's why I'm so interested in it. Because I want to understand how they're squaring that. Is it supportive and challenging, or is it a disaster, and then this is their escape mechanism? And so the best in the world have a way to work with themselves and pursue the thing that matters to them.

They have a way to do it. And so I want to understand that way, but it cannot be in vacuum of the relationships early in life and the relationships currently that they inhabit. So that I rarely get asked that question. I'm not, I don't, I don't get questions about the creative aspect of true masters, just how creative they are. I don't know why that that doesn't come forward a lot for me, but that's something that I know is true. Like, true masters are very creative people. And I think it's available for all of us. We are all creative. And the way that we express it is different. And a single parent putting three kids through school

has to be creative, right? Because it's not, and it's not celebrated creativity, but it has to be creative. So I think we're all creative and that doesn't come forward enough. Yeah. Cool question. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks, Sarah. I'm not sure if I know what I'm looking for in this answer, but what would you define a high, how would you define a high performer? I don't want to be esoteric here, so I'm going to be really concrete.

So there's a difference between a high performer and a master. And so I'm going to answer the question about high performer, but leave space in your mind for what mastery is. So for high performance, there is a high performance treadmill that you can get on. And there is a set of practices and skills, technically, physically, mentally, we might put an asterisk next to spiritually, to be your very best. So for me, there's two ways to vector that question. Is high performance defined as me being my very best, or is it defined by being the best? Is it relative to other people, or is it relative to self? So I choose the definition,

and I'll give you the trapdoor in this. I choose the definition that high performance is the ipsitive relationship to growth to myself. So that I am where I am now, and I know I have a compelling future of how I'd like to be able to do something or be myself, and I'm going to work towards that. And when I see growth, awesome. That's high performance. So being as close or connected to that ideal version of myself, that's how I think about high performance. There's a trap door in it because the other answer is more concrete. And if we are competing in jujitsu and he's been training far longer and he's far superior in all skills than I am, then my definition, if it's relative to him, is to just be better than him. And so now I have to look outside myself to see if I'm a high performer. So the trap in both of these, is about, imagine if my IQ was 65 and the average IQ is 100 and I study and I study and I study

for an exam and I have my personal best. Would you call that, or I'll answer myself, would I call that high performance? I have my personal best on a test I've studied for. But relative to O'Neill, one of the smartest people on the planet, that it's a joke, the difference between the two. So I got two out of 100 right, and he got 100 out of 100 right. And he did it fast, and he did it really easy, but I got my very best grade that I've ever had. Which one is high performance? And so the trap is is if you follow my definition of high performance, which is the arc of growth and progression to be your very best as consistently as you can imagine, then I could fool myself of what great looks like. So let me give you another way of thinking about

it. Imagine that you and I are in a band and we're in your garage and what's your instrument? Oh, you're on guitar. Okay, good. So I'm on the drums. O'Neal's, you got to be the front singer, right? Of course. So O'Neal's doing his thing. He's singing. We're like, yeah, that sounds pretty good. This is awesome. And it feels really good. And we like what we're doing. And we roll up our garage door. and at the same time across the Street someone else rolls up their garage door and it's you too We quit When

Yeah, right so which one is high performance the ones that loved it and left how it feels and we're connected and that it up or Is high performance like no put no, put the notes on time, have a feel that comes out of it. That's high performance. So I'm doing, again, this thing to make extremes to try to help you anchor with your definition. I know mine. Mine is very clear, but that does not have to be yours. And I've seen people be the best in the world with both. So that's how I think about it.

Now, once you're clear of which of those first principles to anchor to, then you can organize underneath of that an approach that would support that. I think it is different, and that's what I'm saying. There's a lot about money and performance, but you said your goal in life is to be a mom, and I think Chris and I talk about this a lot. I had a job, I had a career. I still do. But my job is to be a mom. And I want to be the best mom. I want to develop the best human beings I can be. So what is a high-performing mom?

I think it's growth. It's everything you said. It's growth. It's mindset. It's like teaching each of my children, you can fail. You can be successful. You can be a teacher and make $40,000 a year, but you can be happy and joyful and find the best. Or you can be an investment banker and make $2 million a year, and that doesn't make one better than the other. Finding each individual and flourishing their purpose. If you were designing the Olympic Games, would you design it by whoever PRs at the games, or would you give a medal to whoever wins the race? That's a good question. I mean, they both deserve, you know, it's internal.

Like if they PR, that's great. But you know, the winner, and again, I don't think you, that's the, to me, the FOPO, it's viewing other people's view of you. It's finding your own view of what your success is and teaching children, friends, relationships, all that. There's not a right or wrong here. Yeah. Right. The mistake that we make is that we get caught between the two. And we say one thing, and then we act another way. And then our kids go back to parenting. They're watching us. And we're saying one phraseology because it seems right, but then we're really frustrated when they don't get the A. Well, I would say that I wouldn't give everybody a medal. You would not?

No. Yeah. So, I mean, you can have a winner and a person. You're talking mean PR versus Best overall time right there still could be ten people in the race and the other eight don't get a medal Well, you could have if you're following what we're saying is high performance is being your very best And if you don't PR you don't get them. Maybe no, no, I agree with that You don't get a mat like in the Olympics you don't because you're in a situation

That is the best you are are striving to be the best person there. Best performer. Well, that's what the world celebrates. So we built a podium and then we piled on the national anthem and we gave them the most precious medal for the one that's the fastest. But not all the Olympians are there just for that. Now when you get that, it's amazing. And essentially everybody that is there does get a medal. I mean it's an amazing thing. No, personally, you make it to the Olympics. Oh, that's worth celebrating. Yeah. Yeah. There's only, do you know how many... 516 or something. Yeah, 516. Out of the world.

Right. Yeah, now you get to wear your country's emblem, but you don't get a medal for that. Now that definitely answered the question that I think what you said. So I think what we do is like, this is my approach in just about everything that I will do, is I want to understand the landscape and then create choices that work for you. There's not a right and a wrong way. There's no black and white, you know, this way, that way. And so we are a bit of an experiment trying to figure it out. It's the consistency of the approach.

And this is something we're heading into the games right now. That is something that I would ask every Olympian. How do you want to approach the games? As it's the biggest, the most amazing show on earth, or is it just another game? What does success look like? What does failure look like? And we operationalize them and we get out of of the ethereal and we make it really concrete. And then so what would failure be? Let's stay, you and me here for a minute. What would failure be if you made the Olympic team?

You're in Paris. I would have to say that I would think if I'm an Olympic athlete, I've set a goal. And if I don't reach that goal, there might be Olympic athletes that go and think I'm not a gold medal. That's exactly it. But there are other people who if they don't get a goal, they failed. And would that goal be relative to your very best or relative to other people? To myself. There you go. So success is straining, striving, fighting, competing, trusting, letting go, enjoying, trying to get to that target that you've set, which is an appropriate stretch for you,

which is hard to do. That in and of itself is hard to do. So I want to stack that type of thinking on top of my life events as opposed to success and high performance is only marked by something that's relative to other people. To me, that feels too dangerous. Yeah, that feels dangerous. Yes, go ahead. You know, I find that question really fascinating. And it made me want to ask you this. Have you had to have that conversation? It was a crazy scenario. I'm sure that's happened. With the backup quarterback, right?

100%. When he's fighting for reps and he thinks he has a chance of getting a starting position or at least, I mean, what is that conversation like? Because in a world where you're born into competition, right? You're born into competition. You're competing for someone's affections. You're born into competition. You're competing for someone's affections. You're competing with grades. You're competing in sports. You're competing with your big brother or your siblings. The highest, biggest stage, NFL, the Olympics, things of that nature,

how do you have that conversation with someone like the backup quarterback? And you've had that conversation. Yeah. How do you tell them, hey, man, just, and I'm going to try to be you for a second. I'm not saying you say this. You said this, but. Oh, no, maybe you did. Hey, man, listen. Let's see. Those reps fell.

Whoa, you just said it. Did you say as corny as you can imagine? You just did the corniest of all corny. No, when you talk, you're like this. No, I said, hey, man, because you've got to hone in. They're athletes. You've got to say, hey corny. Now, when you talk, you're like this. No, I said amen. Because you've got to hone in. You're athletes. You've got to say amen.

For example, hey, listen. Those reps felt good, right? When you threw the ball, it got to the receiver, right? People saw you. You're in the NFL, right? Well, okay then. Enjoy that. Enjoy it.

How do you do it? That's not going to work. That's why you're the doctor. so it's about asking more questions and like really trying to understand what success is what failure is trying to understand where they're coming from good example is geno smith he was the backup quarterback at the seattle seahawks and i had the fortune of of working him when he was, and this is all in the podcast, we talked a bunch about it, working with him while he was on the team. He fundamentally believed that he could be a starting quarterback. But what he did is orientated himself to the things that are 100% under his control, and he simply worked on mastering those things.

So his job is not to get the starting job. His job is to be his very best. And the simple question is, what else is there? What else is there to invest in other than you working on being your very best? And so it is sometimes very tireless and unrewarding and uncelebrated. And he would go, he was, where was he drafted? He was drafted, what round though? What round? First round, like top pick. So he was drafted top five in the first round to an NFL franchise, huge talent coming from high school to college, college into the pros. And it didn't work out the way he wanted it to. So he found himself as a backup.

And the thing that he was exceptional at, and there's lots of tape on it, he would get water for people during practice and games. During games, not during practice. He would do anything he could to be his very best teammate because that's what the job called for on the sidelines. And so zero attitude, zero frustration about him not being on the field, but he knew his assignment and he was great at it. So he practiced a way of thinking

to be my very best in this moment. What is my assignment? What is he practiced a way of thinking to be my very best in this moment. What is my assignment? What is my challenge? I'm going to be my very best. And I'll tell you a fun story in a minute. And then when the opportunity came for him to go throw the football, he's pretty good. He got the, what was the record? The biggest comeback of the year or whatever that, like he was really good because he had a way of thinking Which was I am going to be my very best in this moment So when the next moment arrived whatever that moment was he had a way of thinking that would support in being his very best in that moment to That moment just happened to be in the center of the field rather than on the side of it. It's awesome

so your question is how do you work with that ask a lot of questions and ultimately what we most of us want is to know that we're OK. And a way to know you're OK is to be clear about how you apply yourself in this world. So that's where this locus of control as a psychological theory pays dividends. Being clear about what's in your control and what's not, tripling down on the things that are in your control, and the rest is noise. So that's a signal-to-noise ratio philosophy.

And all I want to do when I'm working with somebody is help bring that forward and be very clear and then support and challenge them to be uncommonly consistent with mastering the things that are in their control. So I hope that helps. Sam's got a question. Since we're in New York, if the New York Times is doing an article individually on you guys, what story are you telling and why? Let's go to you first. What story am I telling and why?

Can it be about me or about anything? What story do you want people to know about you? Whether it's sports, being a parent, best thing you ever did, worst thing you ever did? I think the biggest thing I would want people to know about me is that I don't know how to quit. I don't know how to give up. God, this is going to sound really cliché.

I'm trying not to sound cliché. I think that's it. That I just have experienced so much in life and for some reason I have this stupid, stupid faith in myself. I would ask you why it's stupid, but faith in myself. I would ask you why it's stupid, but I don't know if we have time. Whoa, whoa, I'm saying to the, to the outside world.

That was actually funnier in like three or four different ways, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's it. That's it, yeah. It's cliche and I normally don't give cliche answers, but that's all I can say. Dr. Mike? I would, I've spent my professional life celebrating others and working for the most part adjacent to the person that is doing something extraordinary.

And I wouldn't change that. And so if there was a story, I would want that story to celebrate somebody else. And so that story would be for my wife. And so my wife and, more importantly, my son. Look, she's dying right now. More importantly, the relationship between my wife and my son. And then my role in that would be the mistakes that I've made and trying to figure out how to be a good dad. And so I would point on that story because those stories, the people that support and challenge us and to do it in a way that we can see a better future, it's hard to do.

And so I would celebrate that. And in return, what I would hope would take place is that people would see themselves in three people just trying to figure it out. Wow. I want to restate mine. Mine would be all my life, my children, my girlfriend, the world. Why do you have to upstage me? No, no, no. But you're the front person. So that is how you've organized it.

That's cool. Tell that story. I appreciate you. 100%. Yeah. Okay, Sam, you're not getting out of here without us asking you that same question. I've probably thought about it a lot. I would tell the story of my dad.

He's the best. I mean, I'm like the spinning replica of my mother, and she's awesome. I am who I am because of them. They make everything better. They make everything worse. I got married recently, and my husband said, I hope our kids love me as much as you love your dad. And I was like, that's one hell of a dad.

So I would tell the story about him. Congratulations. Yeah. You know, can I tell a story about your dad? Always. Yeah. So we were down, where were we? Where we saw each other recently?

Good stuff. Hermosa Beach. In Hermosa Beach. Randomly. Yeah. And then your entire family almost, who was missing? Shan or I don't even know, but they bombarded you. And I saw you and I was like, wow, this is aggressive.

Yeah. And your dad has this vibrance and this spirit. So your family is a big family and they take up a lot of space in the world. Physical space, yeah. Yeah, right. They're very large. I didn't mean that way, but like big in the way that the energy. And so the way that your siblings relate to your dad is special. So for all of us, what has he done to be a great dad? This is maybe more for me than anyone else. It's so hard to put into words because my mom was my volleyball coach. And so like she tried to ground me one day and he was like, no, no, no. So he was a protector for me

that when she was coach. And he used to coach in like soccer and all that stuff, but his patience is just alarming. And I don't even think it's to a fault because he was so successful in his life, but the way he talks to you is calm and collected, even if he's like, you really messed up. And you're like, oh, you're like, I know. But yeah, he always, if you get down, there's like,

there's no quitting. Like there is, there's no quitting under him and under him. You never like wanted to quit. He made you feel like you didn't have to, because you could keep going. So if you didn't want to get up, he'd pick you up and push you along. So, yeah. So there, I did this exercise with a group of executives about a month ago. And the exercise was, okay, everybody, this is a team, a high-performing team relative, you know, not necessarily internal, but externally. And I said, who here is, no, how did I put it? Write down the name of the person that is flat out the best teammate on the team, that they help people be better. And then, so I wrote a name down and then I collected them.

I pretended like I looked at them and I said, is your name on here? And so that fear and the awakening, like, would my name make the list? So your dad makes the list of being a calm supporter, to being a truth teller in the way that he did it because he was consistent over time of helping somebody be better. So think about that in our lives as well. Like if there was some sort of test of being a great teammate or if there was a test to be a calm loving supporter would you be on the list what list would you be on is something that i think about and there's things that i i know i make the list on and some things i wish i didn't make that list you know so those are the ones that i want to get better at and so yeah yes he's also stubborn so like is stubborn. He does have some things to work on.

Yeah. So we have one in the back, and then we'll come forward. Dr. Mike, what is the second rule of mastery? No, I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm joking. The real question was this. What made you want to partner with O'Neill on these AMAs?

And O'Neill, I would ask you the same question as well. What made you want to partner with Dr. Mikeal on these AMAs, and O'Neal, I'm going to ask you the same question as well. What made you want to partner with Dr. Mike? How did we meet? I'm not good at this game. We met because I was doing a joke on Instagram called Three Black Guys on the Couch. Yeah, man. I was wilding out, and I was just saying crazy things. And the owner of-

Oh, that's right. Yeah. Our mutual friend. Our mutual friend, James Bond, was like, hey, man, my wife showed me your IG. I think it's funny. You could have a show. And so he's good friends with Mike. And he was like, I'm going to bring a good friend of mine in.

He didn't tell me who he was. He didn't say anything. And bring his team in and they're going to talk to you about podcasting. They came in and they spoke with us and whatnot. And at the time, the guy that I was doing it with, me and Austin, we were like, oh, man, they're probably not even interested in us, man. I mean, they're doing a big podcast. They don't care.

And I think a few months later, they reached out. They were like, hey, we're doing this thing called AMAs. We're trying it out. And we saw a couple of episodes of the show. Am I right here? Yeah, that's right. We'd love to try this thing with you. Come on in.

And you co-host with Dr. Mike and provide some levity. Ask questions. Just be honest. Be truthful. Don't try to be something that you're not. And we started doing that. And it turned into me answering why we're doing that to you right now. Yeah.

It was for me. So we accidentally met and we walked, I walked into his gym, James Bond's undefeated gym. And you were there. And I just remember you were just casual and you were like, you kind of looked me up and down, like what's going to happen here. And then, but you have a way about you. That's your good communicator. There's an honesty that you bring forward. And we have an appreciation for the counterculture, the punk. You might not say punk, but the... True.

Yeah. The counterculture, the revolutionist approach to do things differently. And I think that that's why the handful of first conversations, or the first conversation on the AMA was like, I was at the end, I was like, that was awesome. Let's do that again. And it organically just happened that way. So yeah, it's a cool question.

Yeah. One more question, and then let's wrap it up. Should have known. Sorry. Yeah. We covered family, coaching, becoming your best self. And I'm curious, who was the last person or at least the most memorable person who helped you see more of something yourself that you couldn't without them?

That's cool. Man, bro. Okay. When I was at Michigan State University, I worked at this thing called the physical plant where students could work during the summertime and make a little bit of money. And there was this guy there that he went to the university and he ended up running the physical plant. I'll never forget his name, man. Scott Pierpont. And when it was time for me to graduate, I was telling him, just in conversation at lunch, I was like, man, I want to move to LA and I want to be an actor. I want to work in the entertainment business. I'm from Detroit, by way of Jamaica. That's big dreams. And I was second guessing myself. I had a son and a daughter in grad school at that

time. So I didn't, I just was so unsure. And he was like, man, if you don't go now, you'll hate yourself and you'll never go. And he just gave me this insane pep talk about just shooting for the stars. At least you come down with the stardust, all that stuff. Because of him, I came out here and I remember swearing to myself that when I blow up, when I become big time, when I become successful and I win an Oscar or get some sort of award, I'm going to someway, somehow contact Scott Pierpont and fly him out and tell him he's the reason why I'm in the situation I'm in now. And I remember I was thinking about him one day a couple years ago, and I googled his name. I googled his name, and I looked him up in Michigan State directory, and I saw that he died of cancer. And man, it messed me up.

Because at that time in my mind, I was like, man, I'm not as successful as I need to be. Or I didn't attain success in the time I should have attained it. Because maybe if I had done that, I would have got to thank Scott before he died. So, yeah. Yeah. That's haunting.

Yeah, man. Yeah, it is. Because you're pulling forward just how fragile life is. And you're doing it in a way that forces me to go, oh, I want to learn from you in that way. And so I don't know what's happening for other people, but I'm like, I'm watching you go, that's courage. That vulnerability that you just did, you didn't have to go there. You could have made a joke. You could have done a lot of things.

But you actually went right to the edge and then spoke the truth about the pain that you experienced and how that approach screwed you up. That's what the greats do. Thank you. Thank you. Thank all of you. There is nothing else I can add to that. That, yes, that is exactly what mastery is. Thank you. I've achieved it. I don't need to be here no more. Kaisa, help him please. I really don't want to add anything else.

I want to say thank you and tie the other question like why us because of that. And you bring it each time that we're connected. I appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you for being here thank you for making the commitment uh the work to get here it's not easy and we are both we were talking about earlier just how honored we feel about like feeling that so we want to make it intimate we hope that there's something here for you that you felt I'm not running out of here so if there

I don't know what our time commitments are but if there's any other questions I can answer, I'm happy to do that. I'm wishing you guys all the very best in your lives. Like, plant your flag, go for it. Do life the way that you see it fitting for you. Take care of yourself and take care of other people. Take care of the planet. We're counting on you. You know, we really are counting on you in that way. So thank you. Thank you for everything that you've given us. Thank you. Yeah, we're happy to do this. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show,

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