Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Be A Champion in Victory and Defeat | Olympic Gold Medalist Swimmer, Missy Franklin

Episode Date: December 4, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Missy Franklin, a five-time Olympic gold medalist and two-time FINA World Swimmer of the Year.Missy retired from swimming in December of 2018 after an incredible career.In 2011, she established herself as one of the top swimmers in the world when she won five medals – three of them gold – at the 2011 FINA World Championships in Shanghai.At the 2012 Olympic Games in London, Missy won four gold medals and one bronze medal.Missy’s performance in the 200-meter backstroke broke the world record in the event and also marked the first time that an American had won the event in 40 years.Missy was named “World Swimmer of the Year" and "American Swimmer of the Year" by Swimming World Magazine and earned the ESPY for "Best Female Olympian "in 2013 and "Best Female College Athlete" in 2015.Missy brought home another gold medal from the 2016 Rio Olympics for her performance in the 4 x 200 relay but viewed those Olympic Games as one of the most challenging experiences of her life.A shoulder injury leading up to the games derailed her both physically and mentally and continued to hamper her in the years after those Games.And that’s something we touch on in this conversation.Missy shares how she dealt with the first real adversity she faced in her life and the depression that followed it.In Missy words:“It’s not about whether or not someone's gone through more than you or whether or not someone's lost more or gained more, it's just about being human together and knowing that we all experience these emotions based on so many different things.”And I think that's something really important to think about-- regardless of our upbringing, status, or fame, we all go through something, we all experience adversity.No one lives a "perfect" life but it's how we learn from those moments and help each other get better at managing them._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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too fast? Are they going to catch me? Do I have enough to catch them at the end? Like it has to be about you and the way that you're going to compete and swim your best. All right. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. I trade in training a sport and performance psychologist as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery. And we want to better understand what they're searching for. How do they organize their inner life? How do they explore? How do they make

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that's recognized by the International Olympic Committee for administering international competitions in water sports. So that's a big time award to achieve. And at the age of 17, she swept the world stage. And if you watch the Olympics and you're familiar with swimming, you definitely saw her and understood what she did at such a young age. It was remarkable. And then seven years later, she retired from swimming in December of 2018 after this incredible career. world swimmer of the year and american swimmer of the year by swimming world magazine and also earned the sb for best female olympian in 2013 and best female college athlete in 2015 how about that she won an sb in 2013 before she was you know even rip it in college amazing missy won a gold medal in the 2016 olympics and she did it in the 4x200 relay, but viewed those games as one of the most challenging experiences of her life. And that's something that we touch on in

this conversation. So Missy shares how she dealt with that first real adversity that she faced in her life and the depression that ensued. And in Missy's words, I mean, this is just beautiful how she puts this. It's not about whether or not someone's gone through more than you or whether or not someone's lost more or gained more. It's just about being human together and knowing that we all experience these emotions based on so many different things. I mean, that's right on. That spirit of humanity is right on. And regardless of our upbringing, our gender, our ethnicity, our economics, we're all going through something. We all experience setbacks, either internal setbacks

or external obstacles. I mean, every one of us is just trying to figure it out. And I mean, I say that, and I guess only the self-aware would nod their head to that. We're all, I mean, me and you, we're trying to figure this thing out together. And nobody, you know this, I know you know this, nobody lives this highlight, real, perfect life. We are in this stuff together. And some days, some months, I mean, even some years are harder than others for you and for other people as well.

And when we look within, when we really do that internal discovery work, we recognize our struggles, our sources of suffering. And in return, we become more compassionate for others, more kind, more supportive, more caring. I mean, stronger in so many ways for other people. Those are the people I want in my foxhole. And that's the person I want to be. I gotta tell you, I love this Finding Mastery community. And I love this conversation with Missy.

And if you also love this podcast, you can do a couple of things to help us out. Tell some friends, grab their phone, take a look at their phone, open it up, talk about one of the podcasts that you love, talk about this conversation with Missy, and then show them how to download it, show them, you know, kind of where to make that experience come to life for them. And the other way is to support our sponsors. And you can find all the information and all the discounts and all the stuff that we're trying to curate for you at findingmastery.net forward slash partners. And using those codes and links that we give for our sponsors, it tells them that you're coming from us, that you're part of our community and that you're stoked to support their business and our business as well. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Missy Franklin. Missy, how are you?

I am so excited. Here we go. This conversation has been something I've wanted to do with you for a long time. So thank you for making the time to do this. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me. I've been a huge admirer for so long, and I'm so grateful for all the work that you've done and the lives that you've impacted in such an incredible and beneficial way. Yes, crazy in the best way. And so, you know, I think, I think that you're a bit like this. But I don't want to, I don't want

to put anything in your, in, you know, your words, but just a little counterintuitive, a little off access, you know, just appreciating, like, the disruptive approach to the thing that you care most about. And you were a disruptor early on. And so before we get kind of into the, like the weeds of what you've done, maybe we can start with your event to give context to people about your event. And then we'll go maybe backwards and, and take a look at early life and then some some of the moments that highlight what you've done as a profession but just talk about your event in the pool absolutely so literally just 200 backstroke that will work well okay take it a step further like most people know what that is, but maybe not, maybe not, you know, like folks don't

really appreciate the difference between breast and, and, um, butterfly and backstroke and freestyle. So if you could just walk through your particular one. Yeah, of course. So that 200 backstroke is my main event. So that was kind of like my bread and butter. Every, every swimmer sort of has an event that is like their baby that they just love a little bit more, whether it's because they're the best at it, it's their favorite, or it's the one that hurts the most and they just get the most satisfaction.

But 200 back was that for me. But overall, I was a backstroker and a freestyler. So I did 100 and 200 backstroke and 100 and 200 freestyle. And the thing that I loved about being a freestyler is that also meant I was able to participate in relays. And same with the 100 backstroke, I was able to do medley relays with my 100 backstroke. And everyone knows me that relays are my favorite thing in the whole world, because being a part of a team has always meant more to me than anything else. So 200 Backstroke was the event that I broke my first world record in, in short course meters when I was 16. It was my first individual long course world record in

London in 2012. And that record stood for a little over seven years. It was just broken. But it's just four laps of excruciating pain and agony and total joy at the end. Oh, my God. Okay. So you throw it out there like a world title, no big deal. What was that like when you broke the world record? My gosh. It was surreal. I think you dream about those moments so much and you envision them so often. You take the time to sit before a meet and think about

your race and how you're going to submit and what it's going to look like and what it's going to feel like to touch the wall and look up and see a world record. But to actually have it happen is just a completely different experience. It feels like you're still in that dream. It doesn't feel like reality. And to be honest, I don't know if those moments ever truly sink in. Even to this day, I don't know if I fully understand like everything that happened in that moment. Wow. Okay. How much imagery did you do? Let's start with the easy question there. Cause obviously you did, um, you, you're describing visualization slash imagery, but how much of it was part of your program? So I did quite a bit of it and it was personally implemented. Um, you know, I didn't really have coaches that were about enforcing that they were more so just encouraging.

And you know, if it helps you do it, if it doesn't don't. Um, so for me, what I really had to do was swimmers and track athletes, um, and I'm sure other sports as well, but we go through something called taper. And it's in the weeks leading up to a big competition, our practices start to go down in volume and up in intensity. And so we're doing less, but we're hitting faster speeds. And we're letting our body recover while still really just priming ourselves to be in best racing condition. And that was the best time for me to visualize because I was just so engaged in being ready for my competition. So my tapers were normally about a week and a half to two weeks long. And I would try and do imagery work almost every single day. And then once we got to the actual competition, I completely shut it down because a, if I tried to visualize before going to sleep, there would be no sleeping. And B, I just wanted to be like so present and engaged in the moment

that I didn't want to try and create something in my head rather than just experiencing it for how I was meant to experience it. You know what I appreciate about what you're saying is that it's a real skill. So we need to practice it. And it's a tool, meaning that when you use the tool, right, there's an impact, there's an effect that comes from it. And when you do imagery, right, at least my experience is that it lights up our central nervous system. And so doing it right before bed makes no sense.

Like you just said, when should I do it? Definitely not before bed. The worst time. No, because your heart rate's going to come up. You're going to see and feel something that matters a lot that's electric. And when that takes place, you know, and right before bed, it's just counterintuitive. But so you would get your heart rate would come up and you're, you would, you would feel that animation inside your body when you would see and feel the images.

Oh, without a doubt. Cause I wanted that to be a part of it. I wanted to be able to anticipate and expect what I was going to be feeling in that moment because, you know, with, with sports with sports with swimming there truly is only so much that you can control and I think that's really what every athlete is doing is they're training so that they can be as prepared for what they can control while understanding that there is still going to be so much that is out of their control so if I could control my emotions if I could control how I was going to feel sitting in a ready room before I. So if I could control my emotions, if I could control how I

was going to feel sitting in a ready room before I raced, if I could control those things that often even my competitors or other athletes like couldn't control, that was going to give me an edge. And so the way that you are doing it is to get like a free look at that environment, whether it's in the ready room or it's on the blocks or whatever it might be, you would shut down and close your eyes basically, and then animate and bring to life those sounds, shapes, smells,

experiences. And then, you know, it sounds trite, but it really is a free look. Like there's no cost to it. You can make mistakes, you can sort it out, you can but it really is a free look. There's no cost to it. You can make mistakes. You can sort it out.

You can figure it out. Whatever. And so how much time would you do it? Was it a six minute? Was it a hour? Was it somewhere in between? I'm just trying to create some wide boundaries. Absolutely.

It would really depend. There were some days when I would literally just visualize a race start to finish and I would actually try and time it perfectly. So I would in my head do the start and I would have my phone and I would start a stopwatch and I would actually try and visualize my race to the exact goal time that I wanted to go. So sometimes I just did it for those couple of minutes. Sometimes I did that until I got the time right. So it would be like 20, 30 minutes. And sometimes I visualized everything around the actual race, not the race itself, but how I would feel at the Olympic Village, how I would feel on the bus heading over, how I would feel during warmup. So depending on what I was really focusing on, the length would definitely vary. And could you feel it from a, um, like a sensation standpoint, like, and I don't mean necessarily just the emotions, but could you feel the senses, the kinetic internal and external awareness as you were doing the skill or as you were walking on deck?

Oh, yes, absolutely. And that's like, you, you talk about it being no cost. And when I'm walking out for my 200 backstroke final, and all of my competitors are walking out for their race, and it's the first time that they're walking out for her 200 back final at the Olympic games it's my 50th time because that's how many times I've imagined it and that's how many scenarios I've played with and how many situations that oh if something goes wrong how am I going to handle it if I slip on my start how am I going to control it if I miss a turn like so I felt prepared for anything, even though technically it was my first time walking out for a 200 back final at the Olympics, just like everyone else's.

That's what's up. Yeah. And you know what drives me nuts? And I'm going to bias your response probably, but it drives me nuts when people are looking for a trick or they're looking for, you know, a hack or they're looking for basically some sort of like little tiny tool. And what I hear you say, yes, imagery is a tool. It's a skill involved. But what I hear you say is no one told me to do it. It was, but my life fundamentally was oriented around me figuring out how to be my best. And like, please stop me if that's not the case, but it sounds to me like it's a fundamental

orientation around that aim. Oh, without a doubt. And I couldn't agree more. I think, you know, having a magic tool is the easiest option. And that's often what a lot of people are after is what's going to be easiest, what a lot of people are after is what's going to be easiest, what's going to be most efficient, what's going to help me see the biggest change the quickest. And I just, I don't think that long term and if we're looking at being sustainable, like that's just not what's going to be in our best interest. And so it takes a lot of self-awareness and self-analysis to figure out, okay, if I do want to be my best, what are things that I'm going to have to start implementing in my own life

every single day? Not just a one-time trick, tool, done, now I'm going to be better. But what are practices I have to continually engage in that are actually going to change and mold and shape me to be better? I love it. What is your, like if I could go inside or behind your eyes or in your heart area, what is that like for you? Because I got to watch. I watched you like, holy moly, just like you took this, you know, the whole industry by storm, really. And like, but I want to know what it was like inside. It was just pure joy. Like, that's all you would have found was just happiness, like a little bit of nerves,

a little bit of excitement, a little bit of fear, but ultimately just joy. Like I had dreamt of that moment my entire life. I drew a picture of myself on top of a podium at the Olympics winning a gold medal when I was five years old. And to think that 12 years later, that was actually happening. It was just so surreal. And I truly just wanted to take in every single moment because it was something I had dreamt of and worked for literally my entire life. Wow. And then that imagery as a small, thin slice of preparation, because there's lots of preparations that you have to go through, right? Definitely. Just a small, thin slice. Was your North star joy? Oh, it was. So that was the North star to walk on deck and to be the animation of joy. Yes. And, and that, that was why I had the

success that I did so early on in my careers, because, you know, people are always really surprised to find out that I'm, I don't feel like I'm that competitive of a person. And that's not normally what you expect to hear from elite level athletes who are of course known for being the most competitive people in the whole world. But I think the more I've looked at my career and looked back, it was never only about me competing with everyone else around me. I was truly just so joyful and I was so filled with happiness just to be doing what I loved every single day that that in and of itself was enough for me. Like having that competition and that push and that drive is such a blessing.

And I'm so grateful for all of the athletes I met along my journey that made me the athlete that I am. But ultimately, the fact that I just got to swim every day, that was enough. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately

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at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. You know what's wild is that I think about swimming and to me it feels a bit torturous, like staring at a black line. You're not alone. Yeah, right?

And so I swam as a kid and I wasn't going to stay with it it didn't suit me but I do like that feeling of like when there's people next to me and they're skilled and it it triggers something in me to say wait a minute dig deeper understand better align more properly like figure out the efficiencies. I really like that part of it. But I want to understand for you, like, what was the joy about? It was therapeutic. Swimming, to me, was like, truly the best therapist I could have ever asked for. Because no matter what kind of a day I had, no matter what kind of emotions I was feeling,

when I walked into practice for the day, I knew that there was nothing I could do for the next two hours except get better in the water. And that was it. I couldn't solve anything I was worried about. I couldn't stress anymore about something I was stressing over. I had to be present for those two hours. And so it just gave me time every single day to just breathe and be present in that moment and just focus on getting better at the thing I loved most in the world. Okay. And at a young age, did you still have that same aliveness, that same joy, that same therapeutic experience? that to all parents is put your kids in whatever they want to be put in, whatever they're interested in, because that's how they learn. That's how they figure out what they love and what they don't. The only rule my parents had was you have to see a season through. So if I started a new sport and

halfway through the season was like, I really don't like this anymore, I knew that I had made a commitment to my team and that I had to follow it through. And if after the season I wanted to stop, then I could stop. But I loved that because it really allowed me to do all these different things. And I loved basketball. I loved volleyball. I loved soccer. But at the end of the day, I knew after going through all of this, I loved swimming more than any of those things. And that was what brought me the most joy. And even as a seven-year-old, that's where I felt my calling was.

And I just could never get enough of it. I can hear it in your voice now. And part of me, I don't like to be a cynic, but sometimes I like to try to get in there and understand from different points of view. Absolutely. So the cynic angle would be, no, no, no, you just were really good at it. And it was easier than the other sports. And what you really liked was the adulation from adults. You liked standing a little bit taller than your peers on podiums because, you know, who doesn't like that at a young age? And so like, can you, can you push back on that? Because it's not, or say, yes, that's it, you know, but like, or somewhere in between, but the thought that, and this is me, like, really, I want to believe exactly what you're saying. And then I also want

to understand you were better. You were just better than people. And I'm not saying you didn't have to work hard, but you were, you know, you were better. Yeah. And I think, I think there's a mix like there, I a hundred percent agree with you in that if something does come easy to you and you're really good at it, it's pretty hard not to enjoy that. Right. Um, and so I think that was definitely part of growing up, but hopefully I don't sound super precocious and incredibly cocky here, but I was just very athletic. So I was also really good at basketball and I was also really good at volleyball and like every sport that I tried, I felt like I could have excelled in those sports.

And I never felt like swimming, I saw that much of a difference. I didn't think, oh, I could be even better in swimming than I could be anywhere else. It had nothing to do with what I thought I could be best at in comparison to people. It was truly what left me with the biggest smile on my face. And when you think about swimming, you know, practicing in the water for two hours a day, there's not, you know, crowds watching that. There's not people waiting at the end of your lane, praising you for that every single day. Like, yeah, they'll maybe see you race every couple of weeks and

that's cool. But ultimately if you're spending hours upon hours, day after day, week after week with no one watching and it's still bringing you as much joy as it brought me, like that's, that's where I would push back on that. Volumes that, I mean, what you just said is volumes of like intensity. That's so clear to me now is that you, and this is what I hear. Noeless, was rewardless in many ways, other than the inherent joy that you had from, it sounds like, the exhausted suffering unlocking that would take place and then getting out of the pool, the relief, the knowing. It sounds like it's something in there that was really important for you. Oh, I'm like grinning ear

to ear just thinking about that feeling right now. Like the best still to this day, my favorite memories of swimming, particularly in college were after Saturday morning workouts, because here you had just gone through a grueling week of 10 plus swim workouts, three plus weight workouts, any additional dry land. And Saturday morning was always the hardest workout of the week. And we all got into the locker room. And I truly don't think Disneyland could have competed with how happy a swim team locker room is after Saturday morning practice. Like we are just blasting music. We're hugging each other because we get the next day and a half off. And so we are just so happy and like just reveling in the work that we put in that week and everything

we did, not only individually, but as a team to get better. And there really is no better feeling like knowing you've earned, like really, really earned that reward that you're about to get, which for us in the season is, is just some downtime. I mean, I, I, when I said early on, like you're a bit off access, like swimmers are weird, you know, like there's like a breed of yourself that's like in an endearing way, but it's like it's so different. Oh, yeah. We spend a lot of time in our own heads. Yeah.

Okay. So help me understand what the thing underneath it was for you. So, yes, you get some relief from the intense work that you do. Yeah. And you get some potential rewards from an external point on race day. But what was the thing underneath that you really was that you were driven by? It was the feeling of knowing there was nothing else I could have done to be better. That feeling to me, I have found it in little places.

And it's amazing how that feeling goes so beyond athletics and how in my retirement, I've been able to see how that is applicable to so many areas of my life. But it's that feeling when you just know in your heart of hearts that if you had to go back and do it again, there's nothing else you could have done. There's not a percentage more of energy or effort that you could have given. Like you could not possibly have given anything more than what you just did. And being able to look back on something and have that kind of a feeling like that is the best feeling in the world to me it's rare it exactly it's a rare experience it is so rare and and when it happens like the sense of peace that comes with that and pride in yourself it's just

it's it's pretty indescribable. My experience has been that most people hedge their bet and that hedge the bet comes in subtle ways and it comes in sometimes not so subtle ways, but the subtlest, the most insidious, the sneaky way is, and are the self-esteem saving mechanisms. So let's pull it out of sport for a minute is let's say you've got, you're in college and you got finals coming up and you show up to the finals and they're, they're going to be hard and maybe they're on a curve. And let's say that all the scores are shared a little bit like swimming. Right. And, um, and you show up and you lean over to the person next to you for on finals day for history, what doesn't matter. And you show up and you lean over to the person next to you on finals day for history.

It doesn't matter. And you say, man, I had a tough night last night. I put the bottle down like around 11 o'clock and then I started studying. Yeah. Like what? Yeah. Oh, yeah. We were getting after it.

What? You're drunk last night before the finals? Yeah. Well, you know. I mean, we'll see how this goes. So why would anybody do that? But that is a thing that happens. And it's a subtle self-esteem saving mechanisms where people don't have to be vulnerable and put their chips on the table. And expose what they know and don't know.

Because there's this other storyline or narrative. You're not built that way. I don't think I am. And I've seen so many examples of that. And that was something that was so huge for me in Rio because London had been so successful for me. Rio was the complete opposite, just the biggest failure of my life. And everyone was looking for an excuse. Everyone wanted me to have some kind of a story. Like I didn't sleep well, I'm sick. I'm whatever it was, like people almost wanted a scapegoat for me. And I was not okay with that. I was only okay with taking 110% of the responsibility that I was not performing the way that I was supposed to be performing. And I didn't know why. So I wasn't going to make up a reason. And I wasn't going to complain about it. I was just going to tell every reporter and

every media outlet that was asking me over and over and over again, I don't know. I'm just not performing the way that I'm supposed to be performing. And I'm trying to figure it out and I'm trying to work through it. And that as hard as it was, allowed me to be the person that I always wanted to be in failure. Okay. So you had an image of how you wanted to be, let's call it pre-game, pre-event, right? In the London games. And you did a lot of imagery around that. How much time did you spend thinking about the woman that you want to be when you don't get results?

Actually, quite a bit, because I think, you know, just being in sports, you do see examples of what happens when maybe a person is not being their best self when they have failed. And for me, I think a huge part of it was my parents and just instilling this deep value inside of me and this deep belief system that it doesn't matter whether you're first or you're last, you treat everyone the exact same. Like that's, there's no negotiating that. Like that's just a fundamental piece of who we want you to be and who we know you're capable of being. And so having that opportunity to finally show that and say, okay, in failure, I want to be that same person that I was when I was winning a gold medal and try as hard as it'll be to still inspire people with how I'm handling this, like that's what I want to strive for. Okay. So you're trying to be your best,

not the best, or do I have that part wrong? No, that's very accurate. Always. And that was pretty much my entire career is it was, I was only ever focused about being my best. I was never concerned about being the best. When the gal next to you was a half second, two seconds faster than you, what would you do with that? Nothing. Come on. Everybody says that. No, but it's true. I, I would go back and look at my own race and figure out what I could do to be better next time. But there is never going to be a race. There's never going to be a scenario where I'm going to be able to control the lane next to me or control what she's doing and how I can beat her when I can instead focus on what I can do to be better. And that is going to be energy used infinitely more wisely because that's something I can control. How did you learn that? I think a lot of that came from coaches. Um, I was with my coach Todd Schmitz for gosh, 10 years before we went to London. And,

and that was a huge thing that, that we talked about is, you know, when you're growing up and you're trying to figure it out and you're learning the ropes, you know, I loved to race and, and there were several times where I would be the one when I was younger that would just get out there and would just be trying to beat the person next to me. And that led to a lot of conversations and Todd, you know, sitting down and having something very similar to what I just said that, you know, ultimately, what are what are you capable of? Because if you're only trying to beat the person next to you, when in reality, you could be far ahead of them but you're not even giving yourself the opportunity to try because you're so focused on them like that does nothing for you and

it's the same you know in a race if you're behind or if you're ahead not letting those emotions start to freak you out like did I take it out too fast are they going to catch me do I have enough to catch them at the end like it has to be about you and the way that you're going to compete and swim your best. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to

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that you say it, there's a groundedness to it. And one of the questions, I want to bridge something that you just get what you wanted, but you didn't have on the world stage practice. No. Yeah. So what were the principles that sat underneath that? And then I want to double click and say, when did those first start to happen that those were your principles and not, let's call it coach's principles or mom's principles or dad's principles? So I think honestly the most basic principle, and I hope this isn't too simplistic, but it was just sportsmanship. It was just respecting the people that you were competing against and the people that were watching you. And, you know, I, I do think, you know, I, I was taught it, but I also think quite a bit of it was innate because we have childhood videos that are hysterical of me swimming in my summer club meets when I'm five, six, seven years old. And I'm literally reaching my hand out to the

lane next to me for a handshake after a race. And I will not move until they shake my like, I refuse. And you know, a lot of times it takes them a minute, like they don't even realize I'm doing it. And then as soon as they do, they'll come over and shake my hand. But I mean, I am like staring at the kid next to me down, like just waiting. And, and I think that was so deeply ingrained. And then also as I was growing up within the sport, the way it would make me feel when I saw other athletes not handle themselves in that manner after a bad race. Um, I think lack of sportsmanship is something that really hurts me. Even if it has nothing to do with me,

even if I'm watching it as a complete third party, I just believe in the power of sports so much. And when I see it being almost disrespected in that way, I think it takes away from the bigger picture of what this is all about. It's not about one person's wins. It's not about one person's losses. It's about the power of what we all have to do together. And so not being selfish in those moments when you're crushed and literally in despair, but still recognizing that it's not about you. Beautifully put. And when you're in Rio and there's a microphone in front of you and you just

came up short from what you had hoped or planned to do, and people are saying what happened, and you're sad. Was it more sad or was it more frustration? I think it was more confusion than anything else. And just trying to understand what was happening and, and why, just why? Like, I think that was just the three letter word that over and over again, I just, I couldn't find an answer. Where does the majority of you live? And this is a weird way of saying, like, are you more up in your head, in your heart and chest or stomach or hips? Heart. Heart. Yeah. And most people, when they say heart, where do you point when you say heart? Uh, pretty much all over. I think, I think I'm a very, I feel emotions very strongly. Um, I feel them for myself very strongly. I feel them for other people very strongly. And I, I do feel them so strongly that it, it impacts my entire body. So that's why I would say pretty much all

over. Is part of your superpower empathy? I think so. Are you able to put words to your emotions and words to other people's emotions? I've gotten much better at it. It's very similar to imagery. It's something I've had to work at. And I think also, because so much of my life was essentially picture perfect. I mean, so wonderful. Grew up in the most loving household. I was successful in sports. I was successful in school. I had a fabulous group of friends. I mean, you know, of course I went through things, but I had such an incredible support system that, you know, it really wasn't until college and Rio and experiencing these kind of life altering failures that I started to experience emotions that I hadn't experienced before on such an extreme level. And what was crucial for me

during that time was not labeling those as good or bad. And it's still something that I'm working on every single day. But I think because being happy and joyful feels so good and being sad and lonely often doesn't, you tend to have a negative connotation with those. And so it's really taken me a long time to kind of switch that flip a little bit. And instead of labeling them as bad, just recognizing them, like what you're saying, like, oh, I feel a little bit sad today and that's okay. I'm going to feel exactly how I'm going to feel and I have the best people in the world that are going to accept me for whatever I'm feeling right now. How did you come to learn that?

That's not an easy path to follow. Most people don't have the depth of that understanding, let alone the experiences to support it and at the same time, feel like they need to, you've heard me talk about this, do more to be more. And like, I need to do extraordinary to be extraordinary. So like, can you walk through just unpacking that just a little bit more? Absolutely. So I mean, so much of that came from my time after Rio. That was just so, it was the most turbulent time in my life without a doubt. And I had to learn it essentially

because I had no other choice. I was at rock bottom. What does rock bottom mean? I mean, just at a point where I didn't want to swim anymore. I was so confused. I felt lost in my own life. I felt completely out of control. And I had just been feeling all of these emotions and had been repressing them for so long that they got to a point where it just completely bubbled over. And I realized I had to deal with them. It wasn't something I could keep pretending like everything was okay. It wasn't something I could just slap a smile on top of and keep pushing forward because I'd been doing that for so long that finally that smile just broke and it wasn't working as a bandage anymore. And so that's when I started actually like sitting down and working with a therapist.

And she was huge for me in terms of, okay, let's like talk about how we're feeling. Let's look at these emotions and stop being so gosh dang hard on yourself because that was my number one problem is I would feel sad or lonely or whatever it was like a failure. And then I would feel guilty for feeling those things because of how blessed my life was and because of how much I had been given and because of the success that I had had. And, and I will never forget when I first came out about the depression that I had gone through. And I was still at the point where I, for some reason, didn't know that reading comments on an article is never the thing to do. And I read some of the comments, which were for the most part, wonderful and, and incredible. But there, there was one that

I will never forget. And it was exactly what I was afraid of. And it was someone who came out and said, you know, who does this girl think she is? She has six Olympic gold medals and she's depressed. Are you kidding me? And like that, that is what I would think about every time I got those feelings that I associated with being negative was like, how, how dare I, like, how dare I feel that for everything that I've been given and for this incredible life that I've had. And yet I still feel like this, like, how, how could you? And, and so having to get through that and start treating myself with love and understanding, um, and recognizing that everyone feels these emotions regardless of what you've been through regardless of what kind of a life that you've had and it's not

a comparison scale you're not only allowed to feel one thing because you've gone through something of a certain stature it's just it's just understanding one another and being able to put yourself in one another's shoes and just being there for one another geez the critic is so intense you know the other and self you know and it you know you have a wonderful smile. It's infectious. You change people when you smile. And it sounds like you use that really well. And sometimes you would use it to authentically express joy. And you probably started to understand the power of your smile early on. And then it also sounds like you were using that in maladaptive ways to smile when you really didn't want to smile. Absolutely. Yeah. So that was more of your mechanism to not feel.

Yep. A hundred percent. And to still try and live up to the expectation of what others wanted to see. They, they knew me for that smile, you know, Missy without the smile wasn't really Missy. But Missy with the smile wasn't really Missy. Exactly. Yeah. So it was just, I think that's where I learned the power of authenticity and just trusting that people, even if I wasn't smiling, would prefer me to be authentic and true to myself and relatable and honest than the Missy that they wanted to see that wasn't true. Yeah. And more importantly, that's what at some point you wanted. You're like, I can't, I can't keep doing this anymore. Exactly. And I, I've, I've just really fully recognized the power of authenticity and how that enabled me to connect with people in a way that I had never been able to before.

So scale of like one to a hundred, if we could play this game out a little bit and let's say 100 is rich deep consistent joy and um zero it's actually we should do a hundred to minus a hundred you know and minus a hundred is um suicidal deep dark loneliness where there feels like there is no out, right? It's that place. Like how far did you swing between or how long did you sit and at what level on the depressed side? I would probably say like negative 75. I never got to a hundred, negative a hundred, never got to that point. I think I recognized what was happening and the trajectory I was on and just became so scared that I knew I had to do something. But in terms of how long, I think it really started a few months, even longer, honestly. I think just being on the negative side in general began the year

leading up to the 2016 Olympics. And I kind of stayed within the zero and negative 50 range throughout that entire year. And then once the games were over, that next six to eight months was kind of where that negative 75 kicked in. Yeah. Looking back, it's so much easier to see it looking back, but at the time, did you have a sense that you were depressed or did you think it was, cause it can look like a lot of things, depression, it can look like overtraining. It can, um, there can be hormonal stuff that comes up, especially for female endurance athletes. You know, it, it, there can be lots of things, but looking back, did you know that you were depressed at that time?

I don't think so. Definitely not while I was training. And then I actually did get diagnosed with overtraining syndrome in April of 2016. So again, just like you said, that was something that came up. I was like, oh, that's probably why, you know, I've been feeling like this. I've been feeling so down and exhausted and all I want to do is sleep. And, and I think it, it probably wasn't until again, after Rio that I, where I, everything just kind of went quiet. Like in the lead up to the Olympics, there's, there's nothing quiet about that. There's really no time for you to sit and work through your emotions and what

you're feeling. And also you're scared to because, you know, I had a feeling that something just, I wasn't right. I wasn't this exuberant, joyful, happy, you know, woman that I had always been my whole life. And so I almost, I wanted to ignore it because I didn't want to have to address that knowing I had the biggest event of my life coming up in, in a month, in two months. And so then once all of that's over and you're just kind of left in silence, that's really when you're like, okay, what's, what is going on? This is not right. Did you have somebody in your, in your camp that you were working with? Like maybe it was a psychologist or somebody that was skilled. Yeah. So was that,

that dialogue was open? Yes, it was. So I had been working with one throughout Olympic trials and the Olympics, um, and all through training camp. And that was huge for me. Yeah, there you go. Okay. So it's not like you were stuffing it because there is this fear that I think many of us have, which is, you know, Oh, I just got to do it the way that I know I've been successful in the past. But the things that we've done in the past are not going to get us necessarily where we want to go. There's, we've got to let go of some of the stuff that you got to figure that next kind of thing out. And that's hard.

You know, that's really hard to do. Oh, it's because you, you believe in it and you trust it. And so to go from something that you trust to something that's an unknown, that's a terrifying thing. Yeah. Cool. So if you could go back, let's say to the, last race at Rio and knowing what you know now, what would you say to yourself prior to that event? I probably would have said exactly what I had told myself, which was just do your best. And we've talked about what that meant to me and the deeper level

that had, you know, in terms of everything, but I knew that my best wasn't good enough that meat, like I that that was painfully evident that my best was just not even close to cutting it. And yet, that was all I had to give. I couldn't give more than that. So I just remember getting up and, and saying, just, just do your best. And whatever happens, you'll know when you touch the wall, there was nothing else you could have done. Really cool. And I don't want to change your narrative here, but would you change that event? No, I wouldn't. And I'm such a firm believer in everything happening for a reason. And I wouldn't change a thing about Rio. I mean, the full eight days, and I wouldn't change about a thing that happened afterward. But one of, one of my favorite memories from my entire career was in Rio and it was the night of the final of the woman's 200 meter backstroke. So an event that I had failed to final in, um, that I was watching

from the stands that I was the reigning Olympic and world champion in and current world record holder. And I mean, sitting up there and watching those women walk out and, and having to see it like that never in a million years, having expected that that was what my 200 backstroke in Rio was going to look like. I got to watch my teammate Maya Dorado win and beat out the favorite and get a gold medal. And watching her win that like I have goosebumps right now and just seeing her joy like that moment for me it was a moment I could have never expected and it's one that I wouldn't change for the world I remember that not that exactly the way you said it but I remember the narrative of you being in the stands. And when I watch it, I remember thinking, wow, she went to watch. Yeah.

And so you didn't have to go. No. Right? And I almost, I mean, it was hard. Like there was a lot of internal conflict on whether or not, not even whether it was going to be best for me but whether or not I was going to be able to put on enough of a happy face to not take away

from the rest of the team that was up there cheering I didn't want to take anything away from that environment and I truly didn't know if I was strong enough to go there and put on that smile and put on that face and try and contribute some kind of energy to that group. But ultimately, I knew at the end of the day, my team could get me through anything and that they were going to give me the strength to get through it. They were going to give me the strength to be there with them and to cheer my heart out for Maya and for everyone else that we had swimming that night. And I owed them at least that much. Very cool. If parents knew what you knew about becoming the best in the world, but really your path was about becoming your best

and all the costs that come with it, all the joys that are part of it, all the celebrations and the trying to sort it out, the hard times, what would you hope that they could get their arms around? Like in a, in a word or a couple sentences or like something that they could understand what you know, what, what is that? I think my biggest thing is, is helping your child understand that their identity is so much bigger than the one thing that they're best at. And that was something my parents did so well that I was never just Missy the swimmer. I was first and foremost Missy their daughter. And then I was Missy, the friend. And then Missy, the swimmer. Missy, the student.

Missy, whatever it was. They made sure that I knew I had so much more to offer this world than just what I could do in a swimming pool. eventually down the line when I again hit Rio and for the first time truly failed and and had to experience that I realized how much of my own self-identity and self-worth I had put into swimming and so when that was taken away my world was totally rocked from that but that was something I had put on myself even with being completely. So I would say any kind of emphasis, any kind of environment that you can foster so that your child knows that whether it's sports, whether it's theater, whether it's chess, like if it's, I mean, if it's school, like whatever it is that they're best at, constantly reassuring them that they still have so much more to offer than

just that. Great insight. I mean, identity foreclosure is so tragic when it gets exposed. And, you know, and there's lots of ways to expose it, not just loss. But, you know, when you lose joy in the thing that you do, but you're supposed to be happy, you know, you had, you had so much of that. And it really is a tragic thing because we're obviously intellectually, we say it so much more than what we do. Um, but it's super, super slippery slope when that thing is abruptly taken away and yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, um, can you give me a sense of like how you structured the mental skills part of your work? Obviously we got some imagery. What about clarity of goals? What about purpose? What about breathing work? What about mindfulness, self-talk? Like what about some of those other skills? Yeah. So goal setting was huge. Goal setting was something I can't say enough about. I mean, that was so important for me. But I would write out my times to the hundredth of exactly what I wanted to do at the end of each season. And I would often hit them exactly or a couple of one hundredths off. And self-talk was also huge. So I had, I call it a little confidence jar. And so after

a really good practice or a really good race or just something that I was really proud of during the season, I would write it down and I would put it in a little jar. And before the big meet, I would, the night before i take out this jar that was chock full of things from the last 10 months that i was really proud of myself for doing and there was no better way to go into a meet than to have opened up this jar and to read about things you'd completely forgotten about that you just absolutely crushed this practice or when you really surprised yourself and you were exhausted and yet somehow still like when a time that you really wanted to go in season or you had the best strength training workout and you're just getting this like overflow

of confidence the night before you're heading into a race. And so those were, those were two things I think that were most beneficial for me. What were you searching for? What was the thing underneath the thing underneath the thing? Like, what was, you know, what were you aching for? What were you craving? Being, being my best. I mean, I sound like a broken record, but I'm, that was it. Like whatever it was again, end of season. Like, and I've, I've said this a couple of times in interviews before, but like my goal time was my goal time. If that goal time got me a gold medal. Awesome. If that goal time got me eighth place. Awesome. I didn't care what place it was. I knew that that was my goal and that was going to be my best. And if I went that,

like that's what I was chasing. And how about now? Because it's so concrete in the pool. I guess it certainly could be the same thing, but like what are you searching for now? You know, it honestly is so similar. And it's like I talked about earlier with it being such an applicable theory to so many different areas of your life. It's now, how do I be the best version of myself as a retired athlete? How do I still continue to inspire? How do I still make the difference that I want to make in the world? How do I set goals for myself now? How do I be the best wife that I can be? How do I still continue to be the best daughter? Like, it's all these areas where I love the constant

challenge of being my best. I wouldn't expect anything else from you. It sounds just like what I would imagine. Oh, goodness. Okay. When I mentioned the word gratitude, what or who comes to mind? Oh, my gosh. Honestly, right off the bat, my husband. I think there's so many people in my life I have to be grateful for, but I'm going to sound completely mushy and cheesy and gooey, and I'm totally okay with it. But my husband is the best human I've ever known, And I cannot believe I have the privilege of being married to him every single day. Um, but ever, ever since he came into my life, he's changed it. Awesome. I mean, I would hope that we all have the ability to experience that type of depth in relationship. And when you say those things, where did you feel them? Oh, all over.

You knew. Yeah, I did. Yeah. Yeah. And then what happens behind your eyes? Honestly, it just, I kind of just want to close them. Like it's just the emotions are almost so overpowering that like I need to shut off other senses because I just want to feel how wonderful those feelings are. Very cool. Okay. So, Miss, I just want to say thank you for being available to talk about not only the celebrations in your life and the things that you've done to organize your life and the mental skills you've used, but also the darker side, the harder side where, you know, it's scratchy, it's lonely, it's, there's irritation, you know, and to also say, Hey, listen, you can have metals and also still

feel those things. And it's, you know, just, there's no privilege. There's no walk of life that escapes the psychological and emotional difficultness of being a human. There are certainly things that can make it easier, but that doesn't change the narrative about how it actually feels to be human. And I'm saying that with the greatest sensitivity to people that have much and don't have much or maybe even nothing at all. And so the human experience is complicated and it's beautiful and you've got range. And this is one of the reasons I wanted to spend so much time with you. So thank you. then also are there some things that you would hope the next generation could get right? And those folks that are listening and watching you to say, maybe there's one, two, three things that you're like,

just, just pay attention to, or get great at, or, you know, how would you finish those thoughts? I will also just want to say thank you for having me and for providing a platform for me to be honest and authentic and open and for so many others to do the same. I'm so grateful for you and for what you've done. there is such a range of human experience. And instead of comparing ourselves to one another on that range, just entering that with compassion and with empathy and understanding. And I talked

about it briefly earlier, but it's not about whether or not someone's gone through more than you or whether or not someone's lost more or gained more. It's just about being human together and just feeling what we feel together and knowing that we all experience these emotions based on so many different things and so many different life events and on such a spectrum that, you know, if we can just approach each other more with compassion, like, I think that is what I would want to see the most. Oh, God. Like, honestly, yes. Because like, I'm listening going, you know, something is just really special about you. And it is that your honesty and authenticity, but then the know if you know the stats on it, but what you just said, I think you lived and learn and I want the same. Yeah. I want the same.

Yeah. Okay. So last kind of question, how do you define or articulate or even think about this concept of mastery? I think of mastery as always, this is very typical Missy fashion, you're going to laugh at me, is always striving to be your best while recognizing that you're never going to get there. And I think there there's just there's a lot to unpack there but ultimately and simplistically just realizing that you know I never want to be done challenging myself I never want to be finished trying to be my best I refuse to ever stop growing and trying and, and seeing what I'm capable of doing. Like I refuse to believe that there is a best self to get to because it's just a journey with no destination and the prize in and of itself is that journey. What an ambassador for kindness and authenticity and the, the, the goal being the path rather than the goal being the outcome

and being celebrated for having special talents. Wonderful. And so where can people follow you? Where can people find you? Where can our tribe merge with your tribe? Yes. I'm a big Insta girl. That's my big one. All of them, I have everything, but it's a little too much for me to handle. So I am mainly on Instagram. It's at Missy Franklin 88. And then my Twitter is at Missy Franklin. But Instagram is definitely where you're going to see the most personal and authentic Missy posts. There's a reason you're a legend. Thank you again, Missy. Likewise. Thank you so much. This has been absolutely wonderful.

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