Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Big Wave Surfer Nic Lamb on Training For Risk, Making Choices, The Ocean

Episode Date: December 14, 2016

Nic Lamb surfs very large waves. He’s a professional surfer on the Big Wave Tour, and was ranked number 4 in the world last year. A native to the Santa Cruz area in California, Nic is no stranger to a wave called Mavericks. It’s legendary for how heavy the conditions are. At 14 years old, Nic Lamb became one of the youngest surfers to ever charge Mavericks and was one of the youngest competitors in the event in 2014. He won the Mavericks contest in 2016 — you need to take a look at this wave (see below). I wanted to interview Nic to better understand the concept of thinking clearly in rugged environments. We all have real or perceived threats — we can learn from those who excel, on the world stage, in conditions that are very dangerous. More importantly I hope people take away a new way of thinking about risk — maybe a new– way to re-design risk-taking; it’s not about physical risk (which could be a mistake for those who didn’t tune in because they’re not sure how to learn from surfing) — the real risk is to have the clarity and conviction to stand for something that you love, that you believe in — and this conversation get’s into ways to train your mind, body and craft to excel when risk is required – (recovery, imagery, mindfulness) — and — this conversation is a solid a reminder to be in nature, and to progressively prepare and test yourself as often as you can. Nic is intense, thoughtful, and is charging toward his passions and goals. It’s a fun time to know Nic and watch him push his craft to limits, and the industry. In This Episode: • What’s it’s like to surf Mavericks • Learning how to act from those who came before him • Why he loves and fears the ocean • What happens when he’s trapped under a wave • What drives him to crave victory • Managing relationships with limited time • Implementing a daily mindfulness practice • The importance he places on strength, conditioning, and recovery • Why preparation is key to risk taking• Finding something to obsess over as a starting point for mastery_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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upwards you know 45 miles an hour so these waves, they're moving that quick. So you have to, you're not matching 45 miles an hour, but they are moving very fast. So you only have so much time, right, to make the decision. Am I going to go? Am I not going to go? It's really quick. And, you know, since I've surfed a few waves in my career, there are times when, you know, that moment passes you up and you're oh but luckily there's always another wave so trying to learn from that but yeah it can be scary like i said like i i fear the ocean i love it to death but i also fear it because i've seen what it can do and i i've seen the waves that it can create out in the water and for anyone who hasn't seen any one of these large waves just just google some of some of this stuff. And it's just, it's just raw energy. It's

so incredible to see. You'll be like, wow, I can't believe that stuff happens on planet earth. All right. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And the idea behind these conversations is to learn, to learn from those who are on the frontier, for those who are on the path of mastery, and to learn ways that we can apply those insights and ways of thinking that they're sharing with us for our own lives. Not so much so that we'll be better in a selfish, self-absorbed way, but so that we can pursue our passions, demonstrate that way of living,

and then look to be able to help others along the way in their journey. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms. One thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort.

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That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. So this conversation is centered right around that. And it's phenomenal because this is about a man who excels in rugged environments. His name is Nick Lamb. And he surfs very, very, very, very large waves. He's a professional surfer on the Big Wave Tour, which is a global international tour. Last year in 2015, he took number four, in fact. And he grew up in Santa Cruz and there's a wave there called Mavericks and it's world renowned. And if you haven't had a chance to know what Mavericks looks like, press pause right now, punch over to our website or search it wherever web server you have and

check out Mavericks and do a little search for Nick Lamb, N-I-C-L-A-M-B. Now the conditions there, it's cold water, very cold water. The wave itself is really thick and it's heavy and it's large and it's way out in the ocean and it's just flat out terrifying. I've never surfed it myself. And so I'm really excited to learn from Nick and I have great respect for those that, for the men that surf that first and then the men and women now that are surfing it on a regular basis when it's really large. And Nick is one of those who excels there. So, okay. Now, if you're staying with the conversation so far and you had this thought, which is, what am I going to learn from a surfer? Or what am I going to learn from another concept of thinking clearly in rugged environments. We all have rugged environments, whether they're real and it's real physical danger, or they're perceived, which we've told a story to ourselves where we feel overwhelmed by whatever conditions that we're in. That's not that uncommon for people. Now, Nick just is thriving in environments where the danger is very real. But we don't want to miss this. It's not about physical risk-taking. And at first blush or first pass, that's what this conversation can be about. But we can go a little bit further on

this. The real risk is to have the clarity and the conviction to stand for something that you love, that you believe in, and to prepare your mind, to prepare your craft, your body, in fact, to be able to meet those demands and be authentic to oneself, to be true. And to not, another way of thinking about it is to not shrink and to not tighten up in such a way that we give away our dignity or authenticity. saying and singing and doing something that is so authentic to yourself that it's new and it's beautiful and it's pleasing for the sake of doing. Okay, so I don't want to get too esoteric. I know I just did, but I just love these conversations. And it's a solid reminder for us to also be in nature and the importance of it, and to also progressively prepare to test

ourselves as often as we possibly can. So Nick is intense, he's thoughtful, and he's flat out charging towards his passions and his goals. And it's a really fun time to know Nick, where he is in his profession, where the World Surf League, no, not the World Surf League, where the Big Wave Surf Tour is and just the swell that's taking place there. And so it's really fun to see him push his craft and the limits there as well as the industry of big wave surfing. Before we jump right into this conversation, I want to thank everyone. I'm so grateful for the community that we're building together. And I want to thank Nick for being part of it. And I want to thank everyone for the engagement, the social connectivity that's taking place on thenet forward slash community. You can also get us on iTunes for these conversations. Download there, write a review.

It helps to build the base, if you will. And then we're also taking the insights from these men and women that are giving their time and insights to us. And we've created minutes on mastery, which is a three minute or so insight, distilled insights that are just nice, quick, snackable insights. So with that, thank you. And let's jump right into this conversation with Nick Lamb. Nick, how are you? Mike, I'm good. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, for sure. Okay. So I've been looking forward to this for a long time. Likewise. Me too. Yeah. And you know, the idea is that let's, let's try to unpack how you've become one of the, you know, the heaviest big wave surfers in the world. And congratulations on winning Mavericks. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. You know, honestly, it really just stems from my absolute wild obsession for the ocean. I've just, I've been in and around the ocean my whole life. My father was a surfer. Where'd you grow up?

I grew up in the Bay Area in Santa Cruz. What was it like there as a community? When I was younger, it was incredible. It was beautiful. The people were really sweet, kind-hearted. And then as I got older, like teenage years, drugs came, drugs came in and I, you know, lost a few friends here and there. And it's kind of wreaked havoc on the city. But I think it's it's it went through that the last few years.

And I believe it's having a turnaround now. So the community is fighting back. It's but incredible place. Like if anyone who I mean, the whole California coast is incredible. Right. But Santa Cruz is like a little slice of heaven. West Cliff is just one of those. I mean, the whole California coast is incredible, right? But Santa Cruz is like a little slice of heaven. Westcliff is just one of those. I mean, the place is like a miracle. It's just beautiful.

I can't say enough good things about it, really. Okay. So let's start with Mavericks. So we just talked about it. Maybe you can walk us through what Mavericks is about, what that wave is about, what the contest is about. And give us a picture of like what goes into being able to surf Mavericks is about, what that wave is about, what the contest is about, and give us a picture of like what goes into being able to surf Mavericks and, you know, kind of just, just walk us through it. Yeah, absolutely. Um, Mavericks to me and to many of the other people who are aware and not ignorant to the wave, it's considered to be the gnarliest

wave in the world, right? It's, it's Niagara Falls meets Mount Everest. It's, it is, to me, it's the scariest place on earth. And, um, you know, we have boats and skis and people watching us and, you know, I'm trained and I feel great. However, if you take a wipe out out there, I mean, anyone will tell you that surfed out there, it's you're, you're on your own, you're underwater and you have, I don't even know how much, hundreds of thousands of gallons of water on top of you. And you are alone in the dark, you know, underwater. It's very, very frightening. So that's the downside of Mavericks. It's also probably the exciting part of Mavericks. Absolutely.

You test yourself. Yeah, you're testing yourself. And it's kind of, I guess it's like the warrior mentality. You're, you're dancing on a fine line of, you know, pushing the sport and progression and doing what you love and being in the ocean, which is something that, like I stated earlier, something I'm wildly obsessed about, but at the same time, it's, it's deadly. You know, you could not go home to your family, just like, you know, a lot of other extreme athletes. It's, it's, it's the gamble that we, we take. And, you know, I, uh, I love it. It's how I make my living. And I, I asked myself this question the other day, I was like, if I had

all the money in the world, what would I be doing? And I would be doing the exact same thing. I mean, it's like kind of a important Mark, you know, like, are you on the right path? Because money's not going to pull you to another. Absolutely. But I'll be honest with you. I do, I do compete for the money. You know, I'm not, I'm not going to lie you to another. Absolutely. But I'll be honest with you. I do compete for the money. I'm not going to lie about that or be shy. I compete to make money and do well. And I want to be seen as one of the best, if not the best. And I work hard every day at that to try to accomplish that.

And the money is coming in and it follows. And you need money to survive in this world, right? It's a pay to play world. And I want to take care of all my friends and family. So you got to do that with money. And it just so happens as a byproduct of winning events, you can win some. So it's a beautiful thing. And then, so, okay. So Mavericks is, you said one of the most dangerous places in the world. Is that what you said? Yeah. Scariest and dangerous. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And the obvious question for most people, and I get it all the time, you know, when people are trying to ask me about people like you,

like, why do they do that? And there's a couple of things that come up. One is they, are they, do they have a death wish? Do, um, you know, it's not that, right. It's never that. It's never, it's never that. Are they like ADD and impulsive? And, and, you know, there's not that, right. It's never that. It's never that. Are they like ADD and impulsive? And, and, you know, there's some of that, of course, and for all of us, it's not quite that. Is it that they're really selfish? It's not quite that. So how do you try to help? How can you try to help people understand why you purposely put yourself in one of the most hostile and dangerous places in the world and you look forward to it. Right. So that's a great question. And

that's something I ask myself often. Um, I think, um, I think, you know, it's a collective of things. I think, um, I think it really stems from how you were raised, right. And your, and your impression years, like what happened to you during that time and what inclinations or groups of circles you're hanging out with, or what was, what was presented to you when you were growing up? What instruments did you play with? And one of the instruments I was around was a surfboard in the ocean. And it was, it just so happened to be at those impressionable years. And, um, it was funny because, uh, I remember my father taking me out surfing and he's a great surfer. He's, you know, well-respected up

in the community where I came from. And, uh, he's a bit of a daredevil himself. And, um, I remember him taking me out surfing when I was a kid and like, I would jump on his back and he would take me out into the water. And I was, I can't remember how old I was, maybe four or five, but the wave seemed large to me, right? It was like six to eight foot. And, um, I remember him taking me out and of course he had me, I was fine, but I got so scared because a wave hit us and it like blew me up and he lost me for a second, you know? And I remember that and it was like, it was traumatic in a sense that I was like, I never want to do this again. Cause the ocean is very absolute, right? It's, it can take your life. And I remember coming up the beach and crying to my mom, like, I never want to go in the water again. Just upset at my dad. And my mom was upset

at my dad and my dad was just, you know, whatever. And I remember that being scared of the ocean and never wanting to do it again. And then as I hit like 11, 12, 13, something switched, right? I, I became gravitated towards larger surf, uh, surf where the risk was higher or the stakes were higher, where if you fell or something went wrong, the, the result could be something very traumatic. You could get injured or die. And I found myself gravitating towards that. And it brought me great success. But at the same time, it was like, it's an interesting, I don't really know how to explain it,

but it was just kind of an interesting thing. So let's go back to that 11, 12, 13 year, when you're that age. And you could have made the choice to surf smaller stuff, right? And I did, I love surfing smaller stuff. Right. And, but there was something unique about you that wanted to go into something that pushed your boundary. Yeah. Okay. So you weren't ready to surf at age 12, 25 foot, anything. I mean, that's kind of when it started when I was surfing with my friends and the smaller stuff, which I love people, there's a misconception. People think that, you know, like we just like the big stuff. I love the ocean. So I love all waves. Um, but there was a time when,

you know, you're surfing your, your traditional break with your friends. And then that moment where it's like, I have a ride to go up north, which is where the larger waves, where, where they are in that area. And it was like, well, do I surf with my friends right now? Or do I go and try something new? And kind of, I feel I'm being pulled and gravitated up, up north to go try something new, started doing that more. And then that's kind of, you know, like, right? Like if you put two boats side by side and push them off in the water and you just tweak one, like the end result becomes, you know, they arrive at completely different places, destinations. And I just slowly started going, you know, more towards the larger and larger surf. Okay, why? I don't know.

I was inclined. I was interested. I was curious. I got something primal from it. Why did you like the primal experience? What was it about that experience that you appreciated? It got my blood pumping. It, it, I, you know, I don't know. It's difficult to put into words. It was just something that I was gravitated towards and I was interested in and I was inclined to do. And so I just kind of followed it and yeah, here we are. Yeah. Okay. It's, this is what I hear from

most people is exactly what you just described, which is like, there's something about it being on the razor's edge, being in that space of between what I call the space between commitment and hesitation, that space is like, I don't want to say addicting, but it is where we reveal who we really are. Right. It's like a fine line. You like to dance. That's right. Yeah. And can you tell us about that dance for you? What, what you love about it and what your, what that dance is like? I don't even want to put words in your mouth. Yeah. I don't know. Again, it's something, it seems to be a primal feeling, right? Where it's like, ooh, one wrong slip and all this is over. You know what I mean?

So it also helps you too when you go back on land and see your friends and family. Like the volume seems to be turned down in a sense, but you also appreciate things more. You're like, you know, the birds or the sun and stuff. I find myself, I really appreciate the sun. I love the sun. It's such a, it's simple. It sounds stupid to say, but like, you know, if you take your shirt off and just get a little bit of sun on the back or the chat, it just feels great. And, you know, I don't even know where I was going with that, but I just love the sun. Who doesn't love the sun

and the ocean. Yeah. So so but what i think you're what i was following is that you put yourself in heavy situations and that comparison and perspective when you come out of the heavy situations you're grateful for right yeah absolutely so post ocean is an incredible feeling ask any surfer um or anyone who likes to go in the ocean getting out it's the post is insane. It's like, it's a natural high. That's, I mean, I've heard it being compared to, to crazy drugs. It's just, you feel great. It's, you know, it's similar to a workout, right? Everyone out there has worked out. Okay. Couple that with going in the ocean, you feel like you're being baptized and it's like

a rejuvenating feeling. It's something about the ocean. I also, science has now shown like it, the ocean actually helps some people with diseases breathe better, I believe because of the salt in the air, which I found fascinating. It actually helps me because I feel at times my, my nasal cavities become a little bit inflamed. And when I'm in the ocean, just breathing just 100% is perfect. It's fluid. And that that's that's a really nice feeling you know those those times let's say when you're in bed or something and your nose gets clogged as opposed to like you can breathe insane it's like it's a beautiful feeling okay so here's like the the silly but like question that i think a lot of people have it's like do you have a death wish

no absolutely not no but yeah i i kind of i've grappled with that because i i don't i don't operate in in fear of death i don't think that's any way to go throughout your life right because it's inevitable but and i don't want to say because for a while i didn't think i feared death but i think i think everyone does in a sense but i I just, I don't know. I just, I just love what I do so much. I feel that's what, it's what I'm here to do that. Um, the, as a by-product, that being a potential would never keep me from doing what I love. You know what I mean? Yeah, I do. And it, I want to design my life in a very similar way. That's why I'm excited to be able to talk to you about this. And I think a lot of people want to design their lives and intellectually they have that thought like, yeah, I'm going to die. So how do I want to maximize my life? discussion with yourself to an application of actually doing what you set out to do, where it feels really good to be you. And there's a primal and refinement that takes place in the

same experience. Like there's all that primal stuff, but you're, you're forced to have a refinement of a skill to be successful. That's really cool. Yeah, absolutely. I read somewhere the other day that I thought was pretty fascinating. It's like shortcut to success is follow your fear in a sense, you know, that thing that you're, Oh my God, I'm so scared to do that. Or, Oh my God, you know, if I did that, I would just feel, or that thing you think about that makes you really anxious, go straight towards that and tackle it head on. And I believe on the other side, you'll find success. Cool thought. When did you start noticing that you were different than some of your peers or you were thinking differently than many of your peers?

Um, you know, through, through school, there's, there's moments and stuff and in class and um when did you realize you're different that's a funny question uh you know i don't know i think just when you when you that moment when you in reflection you can kind of it you know hindsight's 2020 but at the moment when you you kind of look at your circle of kid friends that you hang out with and i started hanging out with people much older than me. And I started like surpassing some of those people. I guess that that might have been a moment when you're like, okay, I think, and then people start telling you things about yourself. And you know, people are looking at you and you're in the public eye a little bit. I think you realize there there's something different here. You don't know what it is exactly, but how old were you when you became recognized for your skill? Um, well, I've been competing since I was nine. So competing under

age division 10 under 12 and winning under 14 under 16 and winning. I won the California state championship when I was 16 sophomore. Um, so I mean, you know, surfing, it's, it's a relatively small sport, but you know, in the surfing world, I don't know. I had success in my amateur career and then transitioning over into, you know, the big wave world tour. It's tougher, right? Because the talent pool gets larger. So, I mean, you know, I don't really know how to answer that question because you'd have to ask other people that. But I don't know. I just love what I do and I work hard at it and, uh,

yeah, I'm trying to become the best I could be every single day. So, okay. It's a tough question. Why is it a tough question for you? Is it, is it like, like, is there a dance between, I'm not sure when I noticed, I started to notice that I got attention or is it like you're balancing this humility thing, right? Because you are. Yeah. That's a good response. I think it's maybe a mixture of both. Right. But so drop the humility thing for a minute, because that's going to be apparent about who you are. But I want to see if we can understand when you started to notice that you were thinking differently or, or other people were noticing you for your craft. Okay. So the other people noticing, I guess you could, I could, an easy

pinpoint, um, would be publications, right? So stuff coming out in the media and that kind of started coming out when I was about 12, 12. Okay. So middle school, it's like sixth, seventh grade, somewhere in that range, I think. Okay. And then how did you, how did you manage that when other people were noticing your skills, but your mind is still like, it's not totally sophisticated enough to know anything at 12, really? Right. So how did you deal with that? Um, I love the ocean. I love what I do. I love progression. I'm pretty good at it. I'm better than a lot of guys I was hanging out with. And now people are starting to recognize me for the thing I do. And, and, and what I'm asking is because they, did they, okay, I'll hold the thought. Sorry. Um, no, continue on here. We had to say, well, I want to know how you, how you

manage that. And then I also want to know, was there ever a point where your skill was more recognizable than Nick as, as a, as a person? Yeah, that's a tough question. I wouldn't even know where to start with that, but, um, that's what I was holding. Yeah. That makes sense. Um, yeah, I think I was just so, you know, at that age, if you find your instrument, which, you know, sometimes it takes people a lifetime to find, sometimes you can stumble across it at a young age, right? So just, if anything, don't stop trying different instruments until you find the one that you're inclined to and interested in. But I was lucky enough to find it at a young age. And I think at that time I was just so deeply engrossed in what I was doing and just so all about it that that stuff was just a byproduct. It was just kind of going over my head. So, you know, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 was kind of just like ocean, you know, sunscreen surfing, you know what I mean? And then just everything else was kind of.

How did your parents, maybe it was your parents, maybe it was someone else how did they help you not get caught in the trap of believing what other people believing who you were was what other people thought you were well i grew up in santa cruz and if anyone knows anything about santa cruz it's one of like the most heavily localized surf destinations in the world and um i i grew uh, a generation of guys like Flea and Barney and Peter Mel and, and those guys had struggles that, that my generation learned from in that, you know, there was, there was drugs and stuff like that. And they were, they were rock stars. They definitely paved the way, but they went hard. Right right and so when i was younger at that age it wasn't about me you know it was more it was about the older generation so it was never all eyes weren't

you know ever just completely fixated on me yeah yeah and so there was there was a pecking order in a sense which keeps you in line yep definitely. Definitely. It's familiar with that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's, you know, it's definitely unique in the surf culture, but it's also, there's something tribal about it as well. Absolutely. Which is like, there's some elders and sometimes the elders are like wise men and sometimes they're not. And sometimes it can be, it can be, um, difficult. Sometimes it can be difficult. It's so political yeah oh boy yeah so were you uh looking back now um would you change that difficultness or do you think that it helped you in some ways so yes and no you know i think it what it did for me in those impressionable years was it you kind of had i had to build the tough exterior on myself which

unfortunately i i carried a like a little bit too long which you know again impressionable years like that stuff sticks with you but you had i had to build a tough exterior to survive because the week didn't really you know you got beat up or heckled or you know bad things happen to you did any of those happen to you yeah of course of course. That stuff happened to me. Of course heckling. Okay, of course heckling. But did getting beaten up? No. Well, I mean, if you're growing up,

you have a few fights here and there, but I never really had anything super crazy happen to me. I don't know. Maybe my thought of something super crazy is different from someone else's. That could be. But yeah, I would say it was definitely a um an intense environment to grow up in in that uh we were surrounded by men that were just you know

peaking in the industry and were really at the forefront of um surfing culture the whole world was looking at that small town you know and those guys those guys were running it. Flea won the Mavericks event three times in a row, which is a huge feat, um, extremely difficult to do. And, um, you know, that coupled with the things that they were supplementing with and just, it was a crazy time to be growing up underneath that. And I, luckily myself and most of my friends, we, we saw what to do, what not to do and focus on the what nots to do. So you saw them using drugs. I never, I never, I never said I saw, I never saw them using drugs, but it was prevalent. The town knew what was going on. And then, okay. So this is really interesting though. You were interested in progression. You were interested in getting

better. You were in line in a pecking order. Um, you were good at your craft. You watched them be rock stars in your words. And then you were able to filter. Like if you go too far down this path of, of, um, well, let's just call it use and abuse or whatever. The negative things that you get caught up in life. Yeah. Did you, did you go at all? No, never. Because I saw what it did. I saw the brilliant things these guys did that brought them success, right? And love. And I was like, okay, I want to do all those things. And then you see the things that they did that brought them, you know, the downside of success and hanging around the wrong people and deciding to put things in your body that

will not help you with performance in the long run are very unhealthy. And I looked at those things and said, Okay, well, those are things you don't want to do, right? And I think that's important for the next generation. Of course, that's, you know, that's people evolving in a sense, you want to learn from people above you what what to do what not to do, and then improve and then implement that on yourself and moving forward. Just try to be the best version of that. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday. What you put in your body matters.

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for 20% off. What was, this is I think a splitting of hairs, but what was more important? Mother nature as the teacher, your family structure, the elders, or your peer group? Oh, interesting. I would say what was more important to me? Or maybe spiritual framework. I guess let's put that in there as well yeah so i mean yeah that's a good question well i moved around a lot my parents broke up

i'm a child of divorce you know give me a break but i actually you know they were fighting so much you know i love them both they're great but i you know what age is this um i want to say uh eight nine ten ish that okay yeah who'd you end up living with um mom and dad more so with my mother more so with my mother okay yeah nothing nothing too traumatic they're fairly you know i'm i bet 99 of kids can say you know their parents divorced and you know but um not 99 not 99 that's a lot that's a lot yeah yeah i don't know the actual number but i know it's not not yeah i got the numbers right here now um yeah so they divorced but i think so right so we were growing up looking at looking at these people that

we idolize in the surf culture right because i was like i love surfing i want to be a professional surfer look at these guys and i'd say probably what what they were doing was more important to me as far as what they thought than friends family right because? Because when you're young and impressionable, you look up to people and idolize people and you got to be very, very careful who you choose to idolize. So the elders were really your shapers. Yeah, in a sense.

Yeah, okay. And then you're, so what I think I've, you and I have talked about this before is that I grew up in, in Southern California and the surf culture here was anti pro. Really? Yeah. Down here in the bay. Yeah.

So it was more about, um, be hardcore. Oh, that's true. Yeah. And it was about, you know, if you had stickers and flashy colors, like what are you doing? Yeah. You get chased out of the lineup kind of a thing. Yeah. And it was about, you know, if you had stickers and flashy colors, like what are you doing? Yeah. You get chased out of the lineup kind of a thing. Yeah. And so I wanted to compete and I couldn't figure out how to be myself in competition. Interesting. Because like that was the reason I think I got into, I know I got into this career path is because like I couldn't figure out how to access what was inside me as a kid when I was competing.

Yeah. And then the culture was like, what are you doing competing? inside me as a kid when I was competing. And then the culture was like, what are you doing competing? So I had a really different experience. Environment. Yeah. That's huge. Right. Cause you were like, you know, I don't want to upset these people that are, I'm surrounded by, but I want to choose this career path. Well, no, no, no. So no, for me, it was like, I didn't want to, I didn't want to, I didn't, I was following the elders as well, but what I wanted to do was compete. But, for me, it was like, I didn't want to, I didn't want to, I didn't, I was following the elders as well, but what I wanted to do was compete. But competing for me was like, it was a disaster, you know, in surfing, at least like I couldn't, it mattered too much to me and I couldn't access my stuff in the water.

And I know you, I want to hear what that's like for you. I'm sure you felt that, but you had this really different experience. I wish I would have listened to myself, like going back in time. I wish I would have listened, like, and figured out how to, how to either fight or let go to be me in the water. And this, so this is why I'm really fascinated by what you've done is that you had a way to follow the elders and, but you also didn't, didn't completely obey them. No, there, I will also too, growing up, I growing up i had there was a lot of rebellion too i was i was pretty rebellious too again because in that environment which i environment is huge right environment shapes who essentially you're going to be because you're going to adapt

to that and involve in your environment so growing up in that environment which is which was really intense um you know the whole rebellious thing was huge. Being not too friendly was cool. Not welcoming to newcomers was cool. That's what those guys were doing, right? So you look up, okay, that's what they're doing kind of a thing. It kind of bled on to my friends in my group. So I would let most of my friends would participate in that more

than, than myself. Cause it got to a point where I was, you know, competing and trying to, trying to make it a profession and trying to be a professional. I was like, I, you know, that's stupid. I can't be doing stuff like that. It's ridiculous. You know, just be nice to people. Why would you be? I was like, found myself like, you know, for, for reasons that I couldn't even explain just acting in ways i'm like wait what am i doing you know what i mean this guy's just trying to have fun out in the water kind of a thing it was just an accident that he you know did dropped in or he was in the way he doesn't know what he's doing you know so do you assume best intent for most people is that a model that you still have? Best intent for most people. I'd say I think the majority of people are cool.

The majority of people want good things and want to be loved and be around their family and are nice. But there's always when you get into larger and larger groups, there's a few outliers. Those people, those bad apples tend to ruin the bunch at times and can really, you know, plague a group. But, yeah, I think the majority of people want to do good, right? Yeah. Well, yeah, I'm just trying to understand your model. Yeah. Well, it's changing. It is.

Yeah. What does that mean? I mean that I wouldn't say that i'm labeled as you know a concrete person i feel like i'm evolving daily or at least trying to yeah that's cool so perceptions are going to change was there like i don't think there's defining moments in people's life but were there moments that are a particular moment that comes to mind right now that really shaped you that your formative years and whether it's in the ocean or not well um i don't know right it's a collective of things like you just said you don't think

there's a defining moment right so i i think it's it's it's a collective of things yeah so let's go into the water was there a particular moment that when you think of your younger years and when i think of you i think of a progressive surfer that goes big, that wants success. Um, and that's balanced by two things, right? Which is testing your limits and also being one of the best in the world. So it's your personal progression. And also you're interested to, to be able to win, you know, and that means having other people around, uh, trying to do the same thing. So is there, is there something in the water that captured that beginnings for you? Um, that's a good question. Again, I think it,

it really stemmed from the environment that I was in. I was, I was the generation underneath people that were winning the Mavericks event, the most arguably the most prestigious big wave surfing event, if not the most prestigious surfing event in the world so i mean the guy beat kelly slater you know enough said so tell everyone who kelly is 11 time yeah kelly slater is 11 time um world champion he's you know arguably the most oh he is the most winningest surfer to date um he's still competing so congrats to him he's a an exceptional athlete but um you know to to beat someone like that you know just speaks volumes and that had a huge impact on the town and all the kids and i found myself gravitating towards larger and larger surf and then eventually mavericks when i was about 14 and then you I remember actually, it's funny. I remember walking into O'Neill

surf shop on 41st and Santa Cruz and which came from Santa O'Neill industry came from Santa Cruz. Do you know Jack O'Neill? I don't, I met him once a long time ago. He's, I think he's a bit of a recluse now. He's, he's older. I'd love to meet him. Yeah. Brilliant man. Right. Visionary. Um, I, I walked into O'Neill service up on 41st and Santa Cruz, and I forget how old I was, but there was this giant poster up on the wall, and it was this poster of Richard Schmidt, and he was like head to toe in O'Neill, and he had the gloves on and the hood, and this poster was gigantic, right?

It was like the size of the wall. And I remember walking in as a kid just being polarized by the poster. He was surfing away the Mavericks. He was like at the bottom of the wall and i remember walking in as a kid just being polarized by the poster he was surfing away the mavericks he was like at the bottom of it and i was like i remember thinking like that is the coolest thing i've ever seen in my life that guy is a warrior he's a tiny little dot on this ginormous wave and he's surfing it just like a badass like that's the coolest thing i've ever seen he's like riding a bull he's you know he's fighting a tornado you know i don't know it's just the coolest thing I've ever seen. He's like, riding a bull. He's, you know, he's fighting a tornado. You know, I don't know. It was just the coolest thing. I remember it being so polarizing to me. I was like, that is so cool. And that was, that was an interesting moment. Were you by yourself? I don't remember anyone else that day. You know, it was that polarizing for me. It was the image on the wall. And then what was it about the image?

It was just the fact that he was fearlessly attempting something that is so feared by many. Can you see it in your mind right now? Yeah, clearly. And then when you see that image, what happens for you? I just get excited. And then where do you feel it uh deep down in my plums no i feel it i feel it like in my whole body you know it's i can i can recall the wetsuit he's wearing an oneo wetsuit he had gloves on it had like these little red stripes on the chest and i must have been you know i, I don't know, maybe 10.

So that was a while ago. And, and then when you go into that moment, there was lots of options that you could have had from that experience, right? You could have said that's for other people. That's crazy. That's marvelous. Right. There's lots of options. And then yes. Yeah. I didn't, but there weren't for me. There wasn't for you. No. Yeah. And then how did you make the decision? I must tell me if I'm jumping ahead, but at some point it sounds like of all the things that you and I could have talked about right now, that's the one you bring up. And so I think that maybe there was something important about decision-making in your life arc that that played a role. Like, was there a decision

that you were making at that moment? No, I don't recall making a decision. I arc that that played a role? Like, was there a decision that you were making at that moment? No, I don't recall making a decision. I think that that was just something that was like polarizing to me. And perhaps it was like a, a deep instilled inclination and I just followed it relentlessly. You did. Yeah. Cause I was like, I love surfing. I love the ocean. I'm going to keep doing it. My dad takes me, drops me off at Capitol with my friends. We go play in the water. Yay, we have fun. And then there came a time when my dad's like, well, do you want to go up north and come surf some, you know, scarier surf with me?

And then you're looking at your friends on one hand, and I'm looking at my dad, and I'm like, well, that kind of sounds like more fun. I think I want to do that. And then we'll just go up north. Was it to be close to your dad or was it the – No. I mean I'm sure there was probably some bonding there somewhere. But I mean honestly it was more like – no. It was more about what was going on in my little head and how interested I was in like, oh my god.

These waves are going to be bigger. I'm going to be surrounded by I'm going to be in a surrounded by men. Cause I go, I paddle out in the lineup. Right. And the lineup is work in that great feeling. Yeah, it is. It's crazy. Cause I was a little fish in a big pond. You paddle out in the lineup and the lineups where, where people will sit and surf out at a surf break and it's just outside the break, right. They're waiting for the waves. And that moment of like entering those circles. And it's a bunch of older men you know with beards and they're grumpy and you know and then they see me this little kid and they're just like oh and then

until i like dropped in on a wave then they were like oh okay you know and then you know slowly like surpassing them and then it you know things surpassing them on wave selection? Surpassing them on going on larger waves than they were. Not to say that in any way that's lame, but I just loved doing it. So I just started doing it and I was just inclined to do it and just gravitated towards doing it. So I saw someone catch a large wave, a wave that's kind of scary, and I'm like, oh, well, I kind of want to catch a bigger one. Take us back to that. Back to what? To one of those moments.

Yeah, well, I mean, right? Okay, I want to interrupt you. How about this? Take us back to a moment where you could have gone or not gone. Bring me right into that. Yeah, well, yeah yeah that's a good question it was never really you so you i face that every single day you always have that choice you pedal out and you know you can either go or not go and i still you still grapple with that

now that at the level that i'm competing at and there are times when i still go oh my god it's not going on that one that one is is giant, massive. It looks like, you know, uh, a skyscraper that's eight stories tall. There are times now when I'm still going, no, I'm gonna let that one pass. And then I've had a few of those in events and I'm like, damn it. I should have went on that one. What's wrong with you? Wuss. But, uh, yeah, to take it back to that. Is that what you say to yourself? Is it like that? No, it's not like that. what is it like when you pass opportunity missed i could have made that wave because you have the waves so these swells that we surf in these events these are waves you know 40 to 60 to

80 foot tall so that's like an eight- building. Right. And, um, the larger they are like that, the quicker they move, they, they look like they're breaking slow, but man, they are quick as quick can be. And, um, I actually had a piece of technology on my board on this one session. It was like 20 foot and it clocked me at like 35 miles an hour. So essentially we're, you know, we're going upwards, you know, 45 miles an hour. So these waves, again, they're moving that quick. So you have to, you're not matching 45 miles an hour, but they are moving very fast. So you only have so much time, right, to make the decision. Am I going to go? Am I not going to go? It's really quick. And, you know, since I've surfed a few waves in my career, there are times when, you know, that moment passes you up and you're,

but luckily there's always another wave. So trying to learn from that, but yeah, it can be scary. Like I said, like I, I fear the ocean. I love it to death, but I also fear it because I've seen what it can do. And I I've seen the waves that it can create out in the water. And for anyone who hasn't seen any one of these large waves, just, just Google some of this stuff. And it's just, it's just raw energy. It's so incredible to see. You'll be like, wow, I can't believe that stuff happens on planet earth. Let's see if we, let's see if we can put up a highlight of you on one of your waves at Maverick, since we're talking about it. And it is flat out one of the scariest things to,

to even look at, like, it'll get your heart to drop just looking at it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It took me a while to kind of be able to, cause I was so engrossed in it growing up. Like it was kind of just, you know, it was cool. So it wasn't, it's not that gnarly, you know, it's whatever, but it took me a while to be able to transition over and explaining it to the lay person. And it was tough. But it's like you've got to take yourself out of it. I have to take myself out of it and look at it from another person's point of view. And it's downright.

It's just madness. It's crazy, right? Like I said, it's like Niagara Falls meets Mount Everest. So it's intimidating. It's scary because everyone can relate to drowning. Oh, yeah. It's one of the top fears for people, right? Isn't it? Yeah, it is. And it is for me too. I have that fear, if not maybe more than other people. Really? Sure. Yeah. Not breathing sucks. Try holding your breath, just, you know, sitting.

What's, what's the longest holds you've had underwater with all of that compression, you know, 20, 30 feet down. Yeah. So it's difficult to give that an accurate answer, right. But man, I'll tell you what, I'm sorry. What is it like for you underneath? Yeah. So good question. I guess it's, I've heard it being explained like, okay, so you're driving on a highway and you're going like 45 miles an hour and you hit the brakes and then you fly off the side of the road and go down a waterfall and land in a river and you're upside down and you're just twirling and that whole time you're holding your breath and you're underwater and if you're lucky you know you make it to the surface so it's i don't know something like that but it's wild man it's it's you feel like you're being thrown a rag doll by a pit bull underwater and you just got to maintain composure.

What do you do with your limbs? Do you stay loose or do you bring them in? So I stay loose. I mean some people claim that they roll up into a ball. I don't really know how that makes sense. It seems like you're utilizing more energy to do so. Or is I just kind of, you know, just relax, let it go, trust in your reaction. You will come up, um, and just kind of go from there.

Is that your inner, your inner experience? Yeah. Yeah. Right. So even when you're talking right now, it's like you're accessing it. You're slowed down. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But I am fighting for the surface. Yeah. Right. I'm fighting for the surface. Yeah. Some people say that they kind of just completely, I mean, I'm the whole time. It's a, you, I am fighting and fighting to get air. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Finding master is brought to you by cozy earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day.

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I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. You're one of the top, whatever in the world, you just won a prestigious event, but you've had a path leading to that. And there's likely many more for you to come, uh, that caliber of success. And then what's more important for you? And this is not a loaded question. Is it winning or is it catching, you know, the biggest, most incredible, um, threshold pushing wave that

you can imagine, even if no one watches? Um, yeah, that's a good question. I, I think that, uh, I it's, it's honestly, it's a collective of both. I'd say right now I'm more focused on, on winning, um, because I'm competing on the tour and I'm going for a title. And I feel like I can do it. So it's just a matter of time at this point. I just got to be able to stay healthy. But there is something special about just going out and organically taking a surfboard and paddling into a wave and kicking out. It's a primal thing.

And I don't know. I'd say a collection of both you know i i want i want to win right now because i'm i am career driven and uh the end goal for me is to do well enough through my shows and platforms to take care of all my friends and family in perpetuity so to do that you know you got to compete on the tour i i got to win you know those those titles are great and everything. Um, but, uh, it's more than that for me. So, okay. And then this is something a lot of people don't talk about. And if you don't want to talk about it, I totally respect it. I don't want to talk about it. Let's start there. What is the dark side? What are the, what are the places that

it's difficult to chase being one of the best in the world. What is the cost for you of that? And you might say there's not, but is there a dark side that you wrestle with? Oh, interesting. The dark side. Well, I guess, yeah, that's a good question. I'd say probably you really, when you're competing at a high level and you're trying to become the best in the world and the best you can be every day, it's just, it's tenacious and it's, you really, you have to embody, um, a bit of selfishness, you know, and, and your friends and family at a time, they will, they will suffer for that when you go through it in a sense, you know, cause it's a lot of things get pushed to the side. You know, I spent a lot, you spend a lot of time traveling and you just hope at the end of it all,

you know, your friends and family will kind of forgive you in a sense. You know, you miss birthdays and stuff like that. And I'm lucky enough that I have a really great supportive team. And I feel like I work with the best people in the world. And they're all supportive of what's going on and what I'm trying to do. So it works out great. But, yeah, it can be a heavy load for whoever you're carrying you know because it's like if you want to win and compete at the highest level there is no one foot in one foot out when did you chip all in what age did you put both feet in um i'd say probably probably last year the year before okay yeah before that it was before that it was i loved

doing it but um i wasn't on the tour full-time okay yeah all right so in extreme environments which is the place that you choose to put yourself there's this part of the dark side is the cost of relationships yeah the relationships suffer and everyone everyone i understand that and like how do you how do you manage it like what do you do when you know that you're letting others down yeah i mean you just try to try to well in a sense you want to surround yourself with the right people right and the right people are going to understand look there's going to be times when this person you know he's not going to be able to be here, right? Because he's going out to accomplish something. He's following his dreams, stuff that he wants to do.

And if anything, being one of those people, I can respect someone. Let's say, you know, if I had a family member or a relationship with someone or anyone in my life that couldn't make it to my birthday party or my commitments because they were, look, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm in school. I'm really trying to get this done or I'm competing over here. I'm trying to make this happen for my life or I, you know, I have a deeper understanding and, um, empathy for that. Some people can't, but, uh, luckily I'm surrounded by a great group of people that are supportive and that see that. So, you know, I'm sure that they do, you know, I suffer as a deep word, but, um, I don't want to say, I don't want to say that they suffer, but it's like dates and relationships can, um, and family members can, you know,

they get the downside of it. Okay. All right. Um, I think it, you know, if there was somebody else that you could ask someone who's on the path of mastery, one question, what would that be? Someone else I could ask. Well. Not who, but like what would be the question you would ask them? Oh, someone else on their path? Yeah. What would be one question you could ask somebody else on the path of mastery?

What are you most curious about? Well, it would be tailored towards that person, I guess. Okay. Well, okay. Meaning that if they're, see, my thought is that it doesn't matter what craft somebody's in, that there's, I'm looking at least for the threads that bind everybody on the path.

If there is such a M theory or string theory, I don't know. I think there is a similar structure, yeah. You do? I do think so. So what question would you want to ask somebody to pull that out? Again, it would depend on the person and where they are on their path. If they're at the end of their career, I guess I would ask them things along the lines of like, well, what do you regret? What would you have done differently? Um, what advice would you have for me? I'm always seeking

advice, but you gotta be careful who you seek it from. Um, you know, whereas if it was someone that was younger than me who was attempting to get into something um and they and they and they wanted some advice i i guess i would just i would just let them know that that you have to be in this day and age now if you want to be successful you you really got to be deeply obsessed in a sense you got to be you got to be obsessed in your work. You gotta absolutely love it. Um, you gotta just go all in, you know, jump in with both feet and, um, you know, just try to, you know, I don't know. It's, it's, that's a tricky question. It's a tough one. Yeah. I like where you're going with this, that you filter somehow advice from other people. And what, what is that filtering process?

Like when somebody says you should eat bananas, you should eat oranges. Like whatever it is, I grapple with it because I feel you can honestly learn something from everyone. However, and what are those filters that you go through to make sense if it, if you're going to digest it completely? So, I mean, there's always like the smell test or the visual test kind of a thing like is the guy wearing clothes you know is he fucking is he eating garbage out of a garbage can probably not going to want to take career advice from that gentleman you know whereas let's say unfortunately you know people do base you on how you present yourself what clothes you wear it's the first thing people see, you know, are you clean? You know, do you have all your teeth kind of a thing?

Like, so there's that. And then there's the counterintuitive part, which is like sometimes. Sometimes the craziest looking guy can be the most insightful, right? That's why I've actually had conversations with bums and stuff where, I mean, that's another podcast, but it's like I'm trying to, because I do believe that you can probably pick something from every one, at least something. But trying to sift through some of the bonkers, it's like, oh, God, this is going to take all day. You know what?

So I was – I take Uber quite a bit. Yeah. And I love those conversations. Oh, yeah, right. do you ever have to sometimes you gotta put your headphones in be like sorry bro yeah but but some of those insights are really cool because there's one there's a thread that i picked up on that i'm um i don't know how to do this conversations i want to hear about it so so the idea that i would just ask questions to them about kind of how they orientate their life. Oh, you instigate it.

Yeah, I would instigate it. Oh, this is a social experiment. This is. Okay. And then here's a common thread. There's this group of people that like they're trying to make a couple extra bucks and this is their hustle. Not in a bad way, but this is their hustle. And then there's a group of people that they are really clear that this provides them the flexibility to travel.

And then they put their head down, they work for nine months, and then they go back home, wherever home might be for them. And they spend three, four, five months at home. And then they come back and they drive and they Uber and they save their money and then they travel and don't work. And so that's like they've engineered their life not to have millions. Interesting. But they've engineered their life to have experience. Yeah. And so there's a, yeah.

So I don't know. That's why. No, that's interesting. Yeah. That's fascinating. You, uh, yeah. Anyways, enough of that. Um, is there a word that, um, that captures you best?

Oh man. I don't know i i i feel like i'm in i'm in the genesis and there's so much i i still have to learn and i think one thing that gives me an edge is that i'm i love learning and i'm i'm excited to learn and i feel like i'm adaptable but i again like i feel like it's it i have so much i need to do and and see and and learn about that. Uh, you know, I don't know one word. That's, that's a tough one. Do you have people just kind of throw out a word at you? I think most people struggle with this. Yeah. Yeah. And I've just seen if there's a center that's really clear and you know, I think it's, I do think it's tough to answer. Is there a phrase

that guides your life? A phrase? No, I mean, again, I think it's a collective of things, right? I mean, what have other people said? Well, you know, I think there's so many different philosophies that guide people. And, you know, I'm wondering if there's a phrase or a philosophy or a thought that really guides your life. Yeah. So there is one that I've been working with lately and it would be, you know, to always capitalize. Always capitalize on opportunity.

Always capitalize on, you know, just any situation you're in, kind of do the best you can. Try to get the most optimal result whether it be with your body you know your health going to the gym you know capitalize on that time take care of yourself you know be the best version you could be daily and just you know capitalize on every situation whether it be business or personal or anything really okay and then what to capitalize how do you prepare for it like there's's a moment to capitalize, right? There's an opportunity to capitalize. What do you do? What does your daily program look like to prepare you to be able to meet the demands of said environment, whatever it is? Yeah. So I, I mean, I do a few things. I, um,

I, I, I try, I meditate every day and I really try to focus on the breathing just to try to calm the mind. And anytime my mind wanders, try to bring it back and center it just back on the breathing. And I read, I write, I try to remain optimistic. I think you gave me a good workout. Try to, the optimism workout, just go and, um, observe three things that are good and just kind of record it. And, um, a collection of those things, you know, I think. What does your mindfulness practice look like? Is it every day? Is it, uh, do you put a timer on it or is it more feel? Yeah. In the beginning I would try to use a timer and then I'm like, yeah, I don't need

a timer. You know, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna let it flow. And so I actually, I actually, um, I have a ladder and I crawl up onto my roof and I'll, uh, I'll sit up there cause it's calm and peaceful and I'll, you know, just try to quiet my mind and focus on my breathing and visualize and kind of, first of all, kind of just observe my thoughts and kind of see them pass through and kind of, and then I'll kind of work in, then I'll, after that, I'll then move into my goals and focus on things I want to see happening and areas I would like to improve on trying to just kind of envision the best version of myself and envisioning myself competing and arriving at events in my most optimal state and, um, how I feel, you know, when I'm on the sand, right when I'm about to put my jersey on

and right when I'm about to jump in the water, just kind of visualizing and embodying that from every direction, almost from other people's eyes too, because I've ran through it so many times, like how I look, how, you know, different situations play out. And so when you do your imagery, you're watching from like a third person sometimes yeah sometimes because you know i try to do it in different ways right try to envision somewhat of the the same similar result but from as many different perspectives as possible yeah there you go cool and then how long do you think that that average experience is for you i don't know right because i don't time it i think anywhere probably five to well the experience, five to like 20 minutes

essentially because I'll throw in some reading in there too and then I'll try to jot down some notes. Do you see yourself as a risk taker? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I don't think there's any other way to live life. I think you should, I think if you want to, you got to risk it if you want the biscuit. All right.

So then teach on how to, how to, how you've managed or become better at that risk-taking process. Okay. Yeah. That's, that's a good question. What is your process to be a better risk taker? So preparation, one preparation. Did you, I didn't, I don't, you know what, I know I'm interrupting you on this, but like, so you said like one of your preparations to capitalize, go back to that, you know, framework is that you said you would train your mind basically, optimism and mindfulness training and then physically? Right. Yeah, of course.

I left that out. So yeah, my daily practices are visualization. I'll monitor my thoughts. I'll do some reading. I'll do some journaling. And then of course you have to basically, if you're on a path of any sort of success, you do your best to master the fundamentals, eating, sleeping, and moving. You really got to watch what you put in your body. And on the same note, you got to watch what you don't put in your body is also key, right? You know, if you want to

take it a step further, you can get your blood work done, go see a nutritionist and see what, what you're putting in that you shouldn't be putting in, right? Make if you want to take it a step further you can get your blood work done go see a nutritionist and see what what you're putting in that you shouldn't be putting in right make sure you get optimal sleep i you know i clean my sheets probably too much just because i love sleeping on nice fresh sheets and i got a nice bed and sleeping is really key for me because i i it brings me to the third the how i move and exercise because i i work my ass off as hard as i can i try to improve one percent daily physically so the sleep the sleeping and eating it's like i have to eat good or else i won't recover and i have to sleep even better or else i won't recover and it's that it's that triangle yeah and then let's put some shine on your strength coach. Yeah. So, yeah, I work with Nick Herson.

He's at Speed of Sport. He's arguably, you know, the best right now in the field. What he's doing to the fundamentals are, you know, it's groundbreaking. He works with the current UFC lightweight champion, Rafael dos Anjos. Works with the current heavyweight UFC champion, Fabricio Verdum, Liotta Machida, you know, like these guys, I feel UFC athletes are arguably physically the most elite. So I try to surround myself by the most physically elite and just kind of engross myself in their strength and conditioning program.

And I've been working with Kersan since like late last summer. And, you know, my body's changed. I, I feel incredible and I just, you know, I can't stress how important it is to take care of your body, to exercise it. What exercise does for the mind too, with science coming out is, you know, it speaks volumes. It's insane. Like if you're, if you're just looking to get your mind sharper, exercise, exercise does stuff for the body and the mind. Yeah. The simplest pass at that is the oxygenation that takes place when you get your heart rate moving more efficient.

You get your heart moving more efficiently. Yeah. Okay. So with that being said, um, I interrupted you on the process of risk taking, right? So how can you teach us about becoming better at taking risks? Yeah. What is it like for you? Yeah. So, um, again, like I said, you got to risk it if, uh, if you want the biscuit and that, I think what that means is it means a lot of different things, right? I think preparation is key because you don't want to just be, you know, walking on the

side of a cliff with, with zero preparation or any thought going into it. You want to just be you know walking on the side of a cliff with with zero preparation or any thought going into it you want to whatever sport or field or business you're in you want to make sure that you've done the groundwork right you've you've learned as much as you can you make sure everything's tailored to you you make sure you have the right equipment you're constantly trying to evolve your you write stuff down you want to improve on you work on improving it you know if there's something you don't understand, Google it. Find someone who has more information about it than you. Go and work with that person.

And if you can't afford to work with that person, try to figure out a way where you can be of service to that person to try to, in return, get some knowledge back. Just anything you could do, preparation is key if it's calculated risk-taking, right. It's not, you're not walking on a, on a tight rope between two buildings drunk. You know, you're trying to be an assassin. You want to go out and accomplish a goal. Is that what it feels like for you? Like when you're well-prepared and you're in intense moments, like you want to be an assassin yeah essentially yeah a warrior an assassin just a beast all around yeah yeah and you get that it's easier to get that when you're well prepared i think so yeah for sure i think so yeah yeah okay and i found my most i've been

gaining my most optimal results is after all the work and preparation is done i it's so funny i because i never think I'm doing enough. And I think that gives me an edge. I think, um, I'm like, Oh, I don't know if I'm prepared enough, but it's like, are you ever really fully prepared? You know, you gotta just roll the dice essentially. And whether you win or lose, if you lose, well then you, at least you get a lesson and make sure that you capitalize on that lesson and learn from it and carry it into your next venture and, and try to improve. And, you know, moving forward, you'll probably, you know, hopefully win the next time, as long as you're learning from your lessons and your mistakes along the way, which is key.

Is there a particular wave that captures that risk-taking process for you that you were successful or unsuccessful? It doesn't really much matter, but was there a particular way that comes to mind or particular experience? Um, I'd say, yeah, yeah, actually. Uh, so Mavericks, I've competed in the Mavericks event two times and the first time I competed in the event, I was physically, I was on a program that wasn't ideal for my body. I was, I was lifting too, too much weight. I was, I was, I was probably 10 pounds heavier than I am now. I, uh, which, you know, in turn,

essentially you can be a little bit slower. Um. I thought I was doing the right thing, but it was trial and error. Looking back at that event, I did the worst that you could do ever. Everything kind of went wrong that day, but I looked back in preparation. Maybe I wasn't ready. That heat I had, I went for a wave. Again, my equipment was not right for the wave. I rode a new board, and I had wax on it from Hawaii, my equipment was not right for the wave. I wrote a new board and I had wax on it from Hawaii and I wore new booties, which is something you never do. And, um, all

looking back, my preparation wasn't there. I didn't have my equipment tailored to me and I fell on my face in front of like millions of people. And, um, I wasn't bummed about being embarrassed. I was more bummed than myself because I thought that I was ready and I had put in the work, but I wasn't bummed about being embarrassed. I was more bummed than myself because I thought that I was ready and I had put in the work, but I wasn't tailored and wasn't refined. And I basically had the worst turnout you could have in an event. I was so excited to compete and it just did not work out. And so a year passed by and I attempted to work on myself through focusing you know, focusing on aligning the mental with the physical and the spiritual, which they all are important in, um, you know, kind of

refining a well-rounded you and, um, went to work through that time day in and day out. And was there, was there a particular wave that comes to mind for you? A wave? Yeah. A risk-taking experience. Yeah. So it was the first wave of my first Mavericks event. And I paddled as hard as I could. I was in position. What was happening inside you? I was just excited. I was in the moment.

I wouldn't say it was anything mental there per se, because it was looking back. It was my equipment was wrong and my physical training was wrong, which, you know, those are two fundamental things in any capacity or any sport or business that you're in. You know, if you feel the wrong equipment. So two out of three were wrong. Two out of three were wrong. Your mind was right. I felt like my mind was right.

So you're paddling in. Yeah, I was paddling in. Your mind was right. I felt like my mind was right. So you're paddling in. Yeah, I was paddling in. You spot the wave. I spot the wave. I see the wave. I'm sitting in the lineup. Did you have to fight for position or were you in position? Somewhat, but you know what?

I had the heat. I had a world champion in the heat. I had actually two world champs in the heat. Everyone older than me. I was the youngest person in the event, youngest person in the heat. I was just so excited to compete. I think a lot of people were waiting to see me compete and, um, all that coming together again, like I, my mind I felt was fine, but, uh, my equipment wasn't there. And, uh,

my physical planning just wasn't up to date. And I went for the wave and stood up and my board poked, which means the nose of the board didn't fit in the wave, the curvature of the wave. And I went over the handlebars essentially. And, um, there's actually a pretty insane photo of it. The way it was gigantic, the sink like barreled over me. It was like at least 30, 40 foot. And I got so beat. And then, you know, I got picked up by the ski and shook it off. And I was like, Oh my gosh, that was a nightmare that didn't work out and paddled back out out and, uh, immediately got myself back into another wave. Right. I was like back on the horse. Let's do this. Let's go. So you, you just like a pounding. I just took a very, very brutal pounding. Okay. So physically it was dangerous, physically dangerous. And then there was very little concern for your reputation and the way you, you weren't managing that part of it. Like, oh, what do they

think of me? No, because I, I feel I have a very strong relationship with that wave and I don't feel, I put in the time out there. I feel like, you know, there you go. Yeah. So it was about, it was, so the next thought was, let me go back and get another. Yeah. Let me go back and let me shake this off. Talk is really progressive. And it's like, you know, that's like that, um, assassin, right? Was it the assassin or warrior? Yeah. There's a really, okay. So there's a tone to that. Let me go get another one. You get picked up on the ski. Uh, you get dropped out the back. Yeah. It takes me out of the impact zone.

Okay. I'm back. I'm back in position. I'm back in the lineup with, and then do you see some of the guys, the five of other gentlemen? Yeah. And then what's that like? So that was, I mean, when competing, I mean, I'm not really speaking too much, but I think, um, I think one of the, one of the gentlemen, um, was like, Oh, did you make that? And I was like, Nope. And you know, it was kind of like, I don't know. It was just, but it's funny because I wasn't even, I didn't care what anyone saw. I didn't, I didn't care that I didn't make the wave. I was more in disbelief. I'm like,

oh man, this is my, this is, this is my moment to shine. And I'm just blowing it right now. And it's, it had to do with preparation. And does this have anything to do with that guiding philosophy or principle like capitalize? Cause that's a moment that you weren't able to capitalize i was so gung-ho to capitalize maybe i lost sight of preparation preparation might have yeah and then so then that was that's a trial and error i think a lot you have to go through that trial and error right just make sure you learn from it which i hopefully i did did you learn right on the next wave or you learn for the next cycle i'll tell you about the next wave on the next wave or you learned for the next cycle? So I'll tell you about the next wave. So the next wave came and just to get a wave with these guys is difficult. You don't just, oh, here comes the wave. Take your time, paddle and go.

No, you're jockeying for position. You're moving around. You're maneuvering. You're trying to keep guys. These are grown men too. And the next wave came and I jocke for position and I got it and I stood up. Boom. Here's my second chance.

I can redeem myself. My foot slips, my front foot slides down the nose of my board, because I was wearing new booties. And I had Hawaiian wax on my board, and my foot slips. And that's never happened to me out there ever. My foot slips off the board and I fall on the board and then get sucked over and get beat again. And I was just like, okay. And at that point, so they're 45 minute heats, right? And at that point it was, that's like the majority of the heat. That's like 35 minutes was the time span of what I just explained. And I came back up and, um, got hit

by another wave. And it was just at that point, I was just, then I was upset. I was upset with myself. I'm just then I was upset I was upset with myself I'm like I just blew two strong opportunities if I if I would have made one of those waves like they were really good ways they were like tens and I was like that's two and I was like okay I think we had five more minutes left on the clock and I'm like I just I gotta ride something and I paddle back out and the ocean kind of went flat. And then I had another moment and then another wave came and it was a smaller wave. And I, I luckily paddled my heart off and took off on that one and made it, but it wasn't a sufficient score. It wasn't a good way, but at least I rode something stood up and kicked out. And that was,

that was my first attempt. And then, you know, the following event, I ended up winning. So, yeah, cool. All right, so for some clarity, let me ask you just a few questions about you, which is introvert or extrovert? Well, you asked me this when we first met. Yeah. And you told me that I was an introvert, I think. It seems that way to me. It sounds like you've thought about it and maybe every day. Yeah, no, I think it makes sense. Cause I re I enjoy, um, you know, I do, but it's funny because you said, you know, do you get like stimulated off other

people? And I do, but I also really enjoy alone time. I enjoy spending time with myself, reflecting on thoughts, you know, reading, being alone. Um, I, I don't know. I have fun with myself, you know, so I like, I don't mind hanging out with myself. I don't need to be around people all the time. I can go, I can go on an adventure by myself for, you know, a weekend or a week or something and, um, not see or speak really with another person. I enjoy that time. Do you, are you more analytical or more externally kind of street savvy where you pick up the environment? I'd say, I'd say, I mean, I'd like to say a little bit of both. Like I,

I feel cause cause of the environment I grew up in, you kind of had to navigate the streets. So I have that. But also I think my, one of my problems is I might be a little bit too analytical so i'm constantly overthinking thing over analyzing triple over analyzing yeah okay and then can you narrow your attention or do you get stuck in narrow attention can you lock in on the details or do you get too locked in on details i can i can narrow in on the details and I will get too locked in on negative details okay yeah so I won't remember if anyone complimented me throughout my whole life

I don't remember any of that all I remember is the negative things people said to me okay all right and then that sucks sounds sounds like that's a tough one. It's a tough way to go. Help me, doc. Yeah, right. Well, I think that if that doesn't work for you, then the question is like, what's a better strategy? And I don't know. But in hindsight, though, like the things that people have said to me that really dug deep were things that I looked at and I actually improved on and I feel like I've come full circle with so yeah okay do you do you you said risk taker do you make fast decisions or slow

decisions depends on the situation I I like to trust my intuition so if I have a quick response which it normally is from within I'll act on that because I through trial and error I feel like that's the best option. How do you finish some of these thoughts? It all comes down to? What you do day in and day out. I think you're rewarded in public for what you practice in private. Well, that's a cool thought.

Huh. Okay. Yeah. Wow. you practice in private well that's a cool thought huh okay um yeah wow i've never heard that said where'd you learn that i read that like a few years ago and that one's always stuck with me i've never actually said it but you haven't said it out no i just nope never said it okay yeah when there was a time in my life that, no, let me ask you a different question, is love, just respond to that word, that's an interesting one. I, um, luckily I'm surrounded by a lot of it. A lot of people that were really, that had great families that, you know, cause you know, you'll meet those people in your life that are, you're like, wow, okay. This person came from a, like a very loving family. You meet the family and they're just like all they do is just tell each other oh my god i love you i let you know it's just a lot

i'm luckily i've been surrounded by a lot of those people so it's been great but growing up i it wasn't really customary it was kind of like i said the environment was kind of like tough exterior kind of uh you know doggy dog world whereas showing love was a weakness right where it's not it's a strength okay my vision is that's a tough one these are tough ones i am i'm someone who who i'm willing to you know sacrifice and go through a lot of hard times to uh i, I, to take care of my friends and family. That's something I want to do where all the people who've ever believed in me and supported me, I, I want to, in the end, ultimately, you know, give back and take care of those people.

So are you more externally motivated or internally motivated? Cause that sounds internally motivated. I'd say internally, like it doesn't really matter kind of what's going on around me that things kind of just remain the same inside, I think. Very cool. Okay. Last question that I'm trying to understand is, here we go. What is your way that you're trying to articulate or you are able to articulate or define or whatever that might be, this concept of mastery? I'd say, I'd say become obsessed because I don't, if you're, if you're not upset,

which I honestly feel that every person in this world, if they have the opportunity to sift through the right amount of instruments they will click with one thing and they will be inclined and interested in that thing and eventually get obsessed and once you get obsessed it'll get you through the hard times that you'll you'll encounter through life and you'll be able to keep pushing through the hard times and have patience and persistence and tenacity. And it'll get you to that point of potential mastery, which I feel is kind of an evolving process daily. I don't know so much that you obtain it. I don't know that I'm anywhere near it. But I think it's an ever- a, it's an ever evolving process.

Kind of Nick, like I've loved having this conversation with you. So I want to just thank you because I know you were working from the heart in this conversation and trying to find the right words to make sense of it. And I also know that you've got this thing in the back of your head is that you, maybe you don't even want to really talk about yourself and this was all about you right yeah you know and so i appreciate what that what the decisions you were making even to come in and do this so um i really appreciate it it's like you're reaffirming and then having me think about um this risk-taking process in a cool way again so thank you for coming on. Thanks for sharing your insights. And then where can people find more about you? Absolutely. Thanks for having

me, Mike. I appreciate everything that you're doing and you're an absolute visionary and the things that you're attempting to do on earth or, you know, speak volumes. So thank you. I think everyone owes you a big thank you. Yeah, I don't know if you want you can google my name nick lamb um my handle on instagram is nick n-i-c underscore l-a-m-b and uh yeah if you guys want to follow some crazy surf adventures you guys can check out the world surf league.com you can download the app they have all the live events streamed there and um yeah thanks for the support will you send a picture of uh you getting that first wave that you're talking about do you have that picture yeah yeah it's pretty insane i'm like

my body's like flying through the air it's pretty cool okay so we'll post that as well okay so nick underscore lamb uh is on twitter is there any other social handles um yeah i don't really use twitter too much you know what i use facebook and instagram so it's just nick and i see underscore lamb okay perfecto and then um what are your sponsors uh my sponsors are surf air sfh which stands for stronger faster healthier it's a supplement company they're really great um rise bar uh stretch surfboards aqua hyd Yeah, a bunch of great brands. Thanks for their support. Yeah. Who's shaping your boards now? Bill Rydell, Stretch.

He shapes my guns. And Timmy Patterson actually in San Clemente shapes my short boards. He makes incredible short boards. So yeah, anyone looking for a good short board, definitely go see Timmy Patterson in San Clemente. And then just like last kind of thought, was there one mentor that comes to mind right now that was influential for you because you mentioned schmidt yeah yeah he didn't mentor me he more he inspired me if anything you know i think tell people really quickly who he is uh richard schmidt was a um and is like a legend in the surfing sport he went over to hawaii and and what had success over there one events he

competed in the mavericks events too, the first few. I believe his highest placing was second. But he influenced Flea. He was like a mentor to Flea, I believe, in that generation. And he's just an all-around good guy. And he's very well-known in the surf community. And he actually runs his own surf school in Santa Cruz right now. So that's pretty cool, yeah.

Yeah, and he was one of the pioneers. One of the pioneers, absolutely. Big wave surfing. And yeah, he's, he's a madman. Beautiful. Is there, is there anyone that you think would be that we would really learn and have a mutual learning experience to come on the podcast in your world that, um, you know, is not necessarily a surfer, but, uh, they're in the industry. They love it. They understand the ocean. They're, they're water people. Yeah. I mean, I can link you up with Garrett McNamara. He's the man who's arguably ridden. Well, you said not surfer. Um, no, he's a legend. Yeah. He's a legend. Yeah.

Yeah. Arguably the biggest waves ever surf, but I think you should talk to, you should talk to my strength and conditioning coach, Nick Kersong. He's incredible. Let's line it up. Yeah. Let's make it happen. Let's line up. Okay Yeah, let's make it happen. Yeah, let's line up. Okay. Again, thank you. And then for those of you who are listening, thank you. The idea in this conversation and all the conversations we're having is to try to understand the psychological framework of the people that we're speaking with and to not search for the same thing they're searching for, but to be able to understand what it is that the search is about. And in this conversation, I think Nick was really clear about what he's hungry for

and the framework that he uses to be able to get after it in life. So if you want more of these conversations, go over to findingmastery.net. So at Michael Gervais on social media, Facebook is forward slash finding mastery. And then, uh, thank you everybody. Beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're

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