Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Big Wave Surfer Tom Carroll on Being a Maverick, Honesty, Risk

Episode Date: December 6, 2017

This week’s conversation is with Tom Carroll on being a maverick, honesty, and risk.Tom is best known as one of Australia’s great surfers and sportsmen. I have known of Tom since I was a grom (stoked little kid who flat out loved surfing).With two world professional surfing championships and three wins at Pipeline (one of the heavier waves in the world) under his belt, you’d be forgiven for thinking he’s just a champion athlete.Rather Tom is a maverick -- in many ways.Reaching the professional level of any sport has its fair share of challenges, but in the modern era, there is generally some sort of path or map to follow -- like in baseball, gymnastics, or soccer -- there's a variety of developmental clubs / teams / or university systems that help cultivate and weed out those that have "it" and those that don't.Coaching and feedback along the way and physical training would be assumed,Tom emerged in an era where none of this existed and essentially had to figure it out as he went. He was part of the beginnings of the action sport and surf industry, before it was an industry. He was making the map, or at least looking for the bread crumbs that other legends before him left behind. Tom won 2 titles before he ever saw footage of himself surfing.That is just hard to conceive in the world we live in today.This conversation is with a man who fell in love with the water at age 7 and has lived it ever since.Tom has a relaxed and engaging way of sharing his experiences: as a kid falling for the wild elegance of the waves, as a pro surfer ripping and partying his way around the globe with a bunch of like minded maniacs in the days before social media, as a big wave charger hunting down unridden mountains of water, and as a man who fell into heavy drug use and almost tore it all to bits, before embracing sobriety and re-discovering his better self in the process.For Tom, rediscovering his better self, came down to honesty. Once he was able to be honest with himself, he could start working on being a better man.When we think about mastery, I think we are learning there are many paths, many triggers for what drives each of these unique people to go the distance for what they want most. What I love so much about Tom and this conversation is it’s raw authenticity -- his humility -- his vulnerability -- his ability to take risks (some to progress his skill, others on the darker side of humanness) -- and his track record of going big on the world-stage. He's earned and is still earning his insights.It’s easy to get caught up in what you should or shouldn’t be doing. The norms of society: how much money you should make, when you should get married, whether you should do this or that.Tom has carved his own path.In this conversation it feels like we get to go back to a simpler time where we get to learn about a journey of a man engaging in the purest forms of life.Tom is authentic, he’s genuine, and he has an incredible story to share.I hope you enjoy this conversation._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now, this week's conversation is with the Tom Carroll. And I'm a geek about this because some of you, obviously, if you're in the surf community or action sport world, you know exactly who he is.

But those of you who are not familiar with world-class surfing, I can't wait to introduce Tom to you. And so he's known as one of the great surfers and sportsmen in Australia. And I was first exposed to Tom Carroll when I was just a little grom. That's a fun little term for kids who just flat out love surfing. And when I was able to get glimpses of the best in the world surfing, we had to wait. We had to wait for video features that maybe came out like for a year. You know, it's not like it was now, obviously I'm stating myself in many ways, but it, so I was like when the best in the world would show up and we got a quick little

video beyond blazing boards was the one that I remember mostly. And Tom Carroll's in, it was like his imagination, what he was able to do on a wave was so different and so distinct from so many. And I got to see him surfing live once. And it was just as a little kid, I was like, look at that. Like, that's what it's supposed to look like. So with two world professional surfing championships and three wins at Pipeline, Pipe is one of the heaviest waves in the world.

You'd be forgiven for thinking he's just a champion athlete. Tom, though, is a maverick in many ways. He literally is at the tip of the arrow and has been there for a while now. So reaching the professional level in any sport, it's got all of its challenges. In any domain that we're going to invest in, it's hard. It's just flat out hard. But in the modern era, there's generally some sort of path or map to follow, like baseball or gymnastics or soccer. There's a variety of developmental clubs or teams or university systems that help cultivate or even weed out those that have it and those that don't. And that's just kind of part of the process to getting coached and having feedback along the

way. That would just be assumed that that's how you get better. Physical training would certainly be an afterthought, but Tom emerged in an era where none of that existed and essentially had to figure it out on his own as he went. And he was part of the beginnings of the action sport and surf industry before it was even an industry. So there was no, like, it wasn't like money was the thing that anyone was interested. It's pure passion. It's pure investment. It's a pure connection that people are looking for. And he was making the map as he was going for the now generation, or at least he was looking for the breadcrumbs. This is probably more accurate. He was looking for the breadcrumbs that other legends before him were leaving behind. So think about this. Tom won two titles before he ever saw footage of himself surfing.

That's phenomenal. And that was really hard. So if you're interested in GoPro and you've seen that phenomenon that's taken place, it was born out of this idea that people in the water and doing action sports, they wanted to see themselves surf or do whatever, but no one actually wanted to hold a camera. Everyone wanted to be in the water surfing or on the hill skiing. And so there was some of the rise of an entire industry that has literally changed the way sport has evolved so fast and so quickly. So it's just hard to conceive that you can't see yourself in footage

nowadays. So he was, that's where he grew up, cut his teeth, and it was harder to get better then than it is now. This conversation is with a man who fell in love with water at the age of seven, and he's lived in it ever since. And he's got this relaxed and engaging way on sharing experiences, like how he tells stories. I think you're going to love it, but it's a kid falling for the wild elegance of waves. Like that's it. As a pro surfer ripping and parting his way around the globe, it caught up to him in some ways, like his ability to take risks that were, I don't know, helping him get better at his craft, but sometimes getting in the way. So we go into the light side and the dark side and the progression that comes with trying to be

one's best. And when there is no trail or map, and as an entrepreneur, if you're an entrepreneur or you're a parent, you might recognize that just a little bit, that there's no real clear map. So for that reason, this might be a phenomenal conversation to really attune to. Okay, so we talk about his path to embracing sobriety as well. For Tom, rediscovering who he really was and his best self, it came down to honesty. And you've heard that theme emerge across so many of our conversations. And he was able to be honest with himself. That's hard.

It's flat out hard to do. We talk about that. And when we think about mastery, I think we're learning that there's so many paths to it. There's many triggers. There's many drives that unique people are able to go the distance for what they want most. And what I love about Tom and this conversation is his raw authenticity, his humility, his vulnerability, his ability to take risks and his track record, flat out his track record of going big on the world stage. And he's earned and is still earning his insights. And so it's easy

to get caught up in what you should or shouldn't be doing in life and the norms of society and how much money you should make or not make or married or whatever. And Tom has carved his own path. And I think it's a really important footnote to make sure that we just honor. And that's why I'm spending a little bit more time on this. Not because I'm geeked about Tom, but I am, but a little bit more time to, to like, are you carving your authentic path? And Tom is a maverick who's done it. And in this conversation, it feels like we get to go back to simpler times when we really get to learn about a journey of a man engaging in the purest forms of life. I love it.

Tom is authentic. He's genuine. And he's got a full life story. And I'm sure he's got people in his life that love him, are pissed at him. And I'm sure he's got a full life story. And I'm sure he's got people in his life that love him, are pissed at him. And you know, like, I'm sure he's got it all. And I absolutely like, this was an absolute gem for me and I'm gushing, stop me now. But I can, I'm so stoked to have this conversation and share his insights with you. So this incredible story to share. And I hope you enjoy as much as I am, as much as I did this conversation with

Tom Carroll. Tom, how are you? I'm doing good this morning, Michael. Yeah. All right. So I can't tell you how geeked I am to have this conversation with you because I want to bring you back to an experience I had that you would have no idea about, but it was a game changer for me. And so I'm 14 or 15 years old, and there's a big swell that's coming through Southern California. And there was a contest. I think it was back then it was the U.S. Open or no, it wasn't called the U.S. Open back then. It was a while. OP Pro?

OP Pro, yeah. And so it was in Huntington beach as a nice little swell coming through. And so I charged down with a couple of my buddies to a place called San Clemente, which obviously is a world-class surf break that you know, well, and I'm getting ready to paddle out and it's crowded. It's pretty crowded out there. Cause all the pros are in town from all over the world to surf. And I'm sitting on the beach. I've got my board shorts on. I look out and there's just this massive bottom turn. It's about, I don't know, nine feet, nine feet face, 10 feet face, 10 foot face. And it's just this massive, powerful, fast bottom turn. I said, holy shit. And then this very recognizable board with this little swoosh kind of thing. And I see this

huge fan just pop out of the way. I said, oh my God, that's professional. I had never really been exposed to it at that level. And I said, wow. And it was you. so so that was the first time i'd seen like a real pro like significantly be connected to the wave and do what i've seen on videos because remember back way back then as kids all we could get was like i don't know the video sequences that would come out on VHS or beta. And it took six months, four months, you know, by the time we could see it. So, Tom, I can't tell you how excited I am to have this conversation with you. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, it sort of brings back some memories for sure for me.

Just the way you described it. Yeah, which the big bottom turn or the... Just the glassy faces of southern california you know like surfing like you know and i was you know at that point in time i was you know really looking for the best out of myself oh so okay so so what does that mean at a particular point in time you're looking for your best? Gosh, it's hard to put words to that. You know, I was just searching, you know, to be the best I could be at what I was doing. It was highly frustrating at times.

But, you know, and I was putting a lot of putting my whole being into it it was and it was a different time there was no such thing as coaching it was in surfing there was there was no real in our sport it was pretty raw you know i come from a very raw part of the sport and time in the sport as in comparison to now. And so back then, you know, we were just kind of really just each, you know, each moment was really sort of just making it up. It literally like not sure, not getting much feedback. It was all internal and um and uh you know it was it was but

i was just loving i loved it it was definitely that was where i was you know california was a totally different type of wave to surf so i had to respond to the waves differently i had to learn a whole new way of kind of dealing with the ocean as to comparison comparison to the ocean got a deal with you know here on the east coast of Australia and in Sydney but I grew up so the waves you know California they come in that slower and just you know am just cruising at the coast and in a long period swells and there's a lot of sitting around.

You sound jaded from Australia. Yeah, yeah. No, but that sitting around was really important for me to learn how to sit around and wait, you know. And actually it taught me a lot about, you know, about actually tuning in because there were such incredible surfers who could surf that sort of surf brilliantly. So how do they do it? And so it was an important time for me to work on myself and work on my surfing. Okay. So your framework was to put my essence into what I was doing to be my personal best, is what I just heard you say, which is very different than I was trying to be the best in the world,

which you were recognized as that a number of times. So help me understand that difference because I think it's politically correct to say I was trying to be my best. But when you say it, I believe it. And I want to create enough space for you and everyone to say, no, I'm flat out. All I cared about was the title. All I wanted was to win. All I wanted was to be the best. And it sounds very different for you.

And I believe you. So can you walk me through what that was really different for you and i believe you so i can you walk me through what what that what that was really like for you um i look kind of go back a little bit i i think and what you were saying about there was flashes of times or you know i wanted to win the event and i when i started to sniff at the idea that I might be able to make a world title, you know, that starts to come into the picture, you know. So but ultimately what I really felt and it was constantly came back to me and I don't think I'm, you know,

from, you know, now I reflect back and I can see that I was just responding to something within my nature that i don't think i was a really highly competitive person by nature from this from the start and i was much more inward and about what i was like you know surfing when i was a kid i and how it all sort of came to me, surfing, and how it was introduced into my life. And so and how I watched great surfers in front of me and how I learnt.

And as I was going into that competitive field and I was, you know, wanting to actually sort of getting recognition, getting those little step-ups, little sort of, you know, wanting to actually sort of getting recognition, getting those little step-ups, little sort of, you know, like hand-ups in a way and doors opening and doors closing of opportunity with myself and around me. I think that it became apparent that there are so many great surfers around. I thought, well, it would be really good to be the best i can be you know and just feel what that's like and i and i there's yeah and i could not recognize how good

surfers were around me other people were surfing and get inspired by that i don't think okay so you would see someone else surf really good and you'd say, or really well, and you would say, okay, that's inspiring, as opposed to, oh my God, that's threatening, or how am I going to ever be able to do that? You would filter it in a different way, it sounds like. Yeah, and I was just inspired to do, and just feel my way out through what I was just inspired to do and just feel my way out through what I was doing. Of course, it was like, you know, I was going

for recognition at some level, you know, some real deep level. I was sort of going, oh, I want recognition, mummy, you know, or something. Yeah, you know, there's something there for sure. But what I loved to do was to, you know, get real performance out of myself. And I think that part of me was really flowering at that point. Even though I must admit when I was younger, we never used to be able to see ourselves surfing, so we didn't have the feedback. You know, like you talked about, the VHS beta thing we were talking

about a moment ago, the six-month lag. Well, there wasn't such a thing. So when I first saw myself surfing on film, which is on the North Shore when I was 16. Of Hawaii? Of Hawaii, North Shore of Hawaii, of Wahoo, yeah. And there's this filmer, Greg Weaver, his name was, and he used to shoot Super 8 film of all, you know,

what was going on on the North Shore. And then it would take, you know, about, and I was on the North Shore, my first trip on the North Shore, I was there for like two and a half months. I was 16, turned 17, and I was just brimming with just enthusiasm. I was surfing like six hours a day. I was just in the water all day, every day, didn't matter what it was like. And he got these little snippets of me. He'd come up to me and go, I just think I got some shots of you, Tommy.

You know, like, oh, wow, what? Yeah, you know, we might get to show the film down at the Haliva Theatre. I don't know, maybe four weeks. I think the film might come through. I don't know. I just posted it off, you know. So he was sending the film back and then like you know i was just god really so i was anyway i remember just seeing you know he finally got this film back it was more like six weeks

right at the end of my trip i was just like so enthusiastic i was down at the hell of a theater just waiting for that that film to come on and then i saw myself and i was just shocked at how much i didn't like it you know oh yeah yeah and how much i was sort of wow that's not the way i was seeing it you know from i love hearing that tom because i've had the same experience surfing yeah like that's not what i it's not the way it felt it's not the way it felt at all i thought i was so different and um i thought you're so much better right well i thought i was yeah i thought i looked like jerry lipez and know, I was just, yeah, like I mentioned, I was trying to channel all these great surfers that I looked up to.

And I just didn't come out that way. And I looked at it. And I was in a bit of shock. So, yeah, what did you do with that feedback? When you looked at it and you had that critical lens and it wasn't inspiring and it wasn't what you hoped for, how did you process through that or what did you do with that piece of information? I can't remember exactly. Like I can't pull that up really clearly from my memory. But at some level, I definitely was not satisfied.

And so I was internally not satisfied about what was going on and I think I must have at some level gone on a on a deep kind of sort of quest to improve what I thought I might be in the water I was getting a lot of recognition outside so that feedback was really nice what I thought I might be in the water. I was getting a lot of recognition outside, so that feedback was really nice. And that was sort of propping up the idea that I might be able to be, you know, a great surfer one day or really good. I know.

So I was sort of feeding off that really and uh and i'm and at some level i mustn't have taken that much notice because i just kept on going i mean i just i loved what i was doing i was searching searching out design and surfboards and and just really inspired by watching great surfers in front of me so that you know i just moved along that's what i can sort of pick up right now but and just really inspired by watching great surfers in front of me. So, you know, I just moved along. That's what I can sort of pick up right now. But, you know, it took a long time of work, you know, and then eventually coming to the VHS stage, you know, in the early 80s, where actually I eventually got a VHS camera and we started playing around

with shooting stuff and putting it on the TV immediately. This was already past my first two world titles, really. Oh, so you won your first two world titles without any technology, without any coaching. It was an internal drive. Yeah. Well, there was coaching, in a sense sense around me that was driving me to and helping guiding me you know there were people interested in my path and who i was listening to

i don't know how i did that because i was pretty surfers back then were pretty solo orientated weren't team orientated at all it was like one person one wave and you know that that that sort of filters out to kind of a lot of life you know for a lot of surfers and still does today but but back then it was very pronounced um way of looking at the world and and so to sort of, you know, get a team together around you to help me, you know, along the path was tricky in its own right. But, you know, I had some good people around me that had my best interests at heart and I did listen to them and there was some good feedback along the way that helped guide me to that position of liking what I was looking like,

liking what I was doing and getting those little stepping stones to the point where I mentioned before that I could sniff the idea that I might be able to be a world champion. But – and I don't know, yeah, I don't even know when that became my goal because I don't think that was my goal from, you know, when I was a kid. Okay, so the goal was the idea of progression,

getting better and committing and putting your essence into the thing that you're doing. And that at some point you're getting feedback, right? Like, Hey, and that feedback probably came from some wins that you're getting, but then elders or somebody that had some credibility saying, Hey, you know, keep at it. You know, like this, this could work out for you.

Is that what was taking place? That's right. And that actually was happening when I was quite young from like, even like 11 and 12, down local beach yeah just getting that sort of feedback and going oh you know were you a natural um you know what i think i had some natural abilities physically i was trying to sort out a whole bunch of other stuff in me when I was really young because, you know, I had some things happen when I was about seven in my life where I lost my mother, which was tired, you know,

like I lost my mother but I was six losing her and then I lost her at seven. And what I understand now is my brain just really didn't know what was going on, didn't quite connect with that. And that moment, that had a profound impact on me, of course, at some level. And she was the one that actually gave me my first surfboard just before she passed away. So at that point I kind of was introduced to the ocean on a surfboard like I always wanted.

I was already seeing it. But from there it was like I hit the ocean and the ocean sort of was a place to sort this stuff out, you know. Whatever was going on at an emotional level, I don't know what that was and it's hard to even touch it. How much of your mom is embedded in your surfing career? How did those two things play together? Obviously the introduction via surfboard, but then

if we went a couple layers deeper is there any connection to your mom and your path in surfing or is that is just that not the case at all i'm not sure michael it's it's you know like i said i don't know i don't know how to find the language to that but it's's like I know that, you know, the ocean's been there. I've never been really afraid of it. It's always, you know, there's been moments for sure it's been frightening, but it's never really, I've always loved being immersed in the ocean and it's never really, it's just been through that sort of, you know, spending as much time as I could when I was a youngster in it

and finding some sort of place to sort of start to understand or just reflect, I don't know, what what i was doing to be honest but surfing you know just came so naturally to me in that in that environment within myself okay so yeah so and and then you're catching the wave and surfing and responding and going out and getting physically challenged so sort of right in nature right involved you, nature's just surrounded me, you know. Yeah. And I was able, and so surfing came along as a kind of a, I don't know, I was just lucky to have the physical attributes that sort of fitted in well,

fit in well with that, I think. Looking back, what do you think it has allowed you to be so special to be you know so influential and to be the best in the world for an extended period of time winning pipe masters winning world championships like those are those are big deals and so if you look back what what is the crown jewel or jewels when When I look back, I think it was just that intense focus. I had an ability to, you know, really focus on what I was doing. You know, I was highly distracted. I'm a highly distracted human.

Don't get me wrong. But, and it's so evident, you know, at any given moment. But I was, yeah, I could focus and I had an intensity and I brought an intensity to my surfing that was influenced by, I think, a whole lot of, you know, environments as I was getting old, as I was growing up through my teens and, you know, and then the influence of some of the – I think a big influence was my brother.

He's very intense. He's very competitive. So I kind of drew into that. I got kind of – I reacted or responded to my first sibling, you know, as your younger brother kind of does you know in that sort of situation i think that really pulled it out of me and as i grew older and into the intense nature of my other competitors that the surfers that i keep stepping up to the mark with that. And, you know, winning surfing events is, from my memory,

it's a real getting a feel for how I am with my equipment and all those factors coming in, not necessarily being absolutely perfect, but I used to go for perfection. And I think just that ability, I could see that I could hold my focus throughout a whole event and keep a kind of a rhythm with that focus. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust

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So an event has, you know, it's two weeks sometimes, right? Ebbs and flows. So when you were surfing, I could imagine that you were locked in or, you know, completely switched on while you're surfing. And, but you could also, what was it like when you're eating breakfast or dinner or watching others or trying to get to sleep? Like what, what was that level of focus like? And how does that play into the concept of focus? We would be surfing a set time frame and some years we were surfing 26 events in a year. So it was a lot of surfing, all kinds of different conditions in all kinds of parts of the world which were sometimes really marginal as far as surfing was concerned.

So I did have a much more set timeframe to work with. I knew what was coming up. I could see, I could focus my energy, and I'd work towards certain sort of rhythms in that. And if I could get my rhythm up, you know, it's nice when you had so many events because in a way, I mean, there was a lot of hard work physically too mentally and all that traveling and sometimes also confused you know which hotel you know

where i was and i wake up thinking i was in another country it was sometimes like that but keeping a focus staying in the ocean and staying with my equipment, keeping it really, really clean and keeping myself really focused on my game. I just have a rhythm in things that I do around the event and I've noticed that with other athletes do that. And, you know, there's a certain amount of superstition involved because we're human. So you've got this,'ve got this these things have

got to happen so i'll make sure and i understand you know down the track i had to refocus that and understand how to get more malleable but um i did get a really good rhythm up and was able to you know some some events were held not every two weeks perfectly through the year, but in, say, a 26-event year, there'd be sort of a six-week period with back-to-back events, say, in Europe, and then you'd just like be just banging these events out, surfing intensely for that period in all kinds of conditions.

And that really played into my mindset. It's just intensity for focus, and it sort of helped me, I think. Okay, so rhythm is an important word for surfing, but for all sport as well. And what would you do to be able to find the rhythm of either the wave or the contest or people the the rhythm within yourself like what were the things that you would do or ways that you would think to be able to syncopate with that rhythm well i was all over the place at first and i was just really forced for many for the first few for some years you know. That's such a cool statement though Tom is that like I was all over the place when I was just

like trying to figure it out like because you didn't know how to find rhythm it's I could I really relate to that so so eventually how did you get into like a repeatable way to find rhythm um i i kind of found that i would do on off times uh you know it was like a little moments brief a month or two where we'd have a little what would they call an off season but it wasn't really an off season it was just we just get a little time where we go back back home. Surfing back then, it was super loose and free. You know, we weren't really – some of us were treating it like a real sport. Some of us weren't. And there were some wild times and so on.

But we – my idea was to try and bring – you know, look at other sports people and look at how they did stuff and learn, you know, watch tennis players, but eight hours of, you know, time on the court, you know, to get their game ready and get it tuned in. And so we started looking at that sort of stuff. And so I started applying some discipline to those times off rather than and those those times the discipline kind of started to bleed into around the events where I'd sort of where I'd you know apply a rhythm within my surfing time not too control. It was better when I was a little bit less controlled about it,

but I'd apply myself to certain areas of my surfing. But also there's periods of, say, a month and a half, six weeks to eight weeks of discipline around physical training, which was not done by many surfers back then. Yeah, you really do represent the professional, in my mind at least. And maybe it's just the unique time that I was watching and coming up and surfing. Like you really do represent the person who took it into a very professional way from both the physical aspect, but the mental preparation. And, you know, were you being inspired by preparation and you know did you were you

being inspired by tennis and other pro sports or were there people that were teaching you how to train your body and train your mind or were you just seriously trying to figure it all out i was just seriously trying to figure it all out because we didn't know it wasn't in you know i'd be going down and warming up before surfing at my local beaches. And people look at me like, what the hell are you doing? I was really working against, in many ways, to become professional and turn it into something that's going to support me. At what age were you doing that? Because I've got three questions I want to ask you.

At what age were you cutting against the grain and the culture of surfing wow um i'm not sure um yeah because i'm not sure uh there's just moments when just to come to me, I'm actually sort of wearing it today. I've got this bad knee, right knee. So this knee, I had a really bad injury when I was 16 on a big wave. It was a place we used to push our surfing, the local guys at my local beach in Newport. Back in the day, you know, in the 70s we used to when it was all closing out too big at the beaches when we surfed and i kind of digress

i'm taking off in a little angle here just to sort of kind of paint a picture of what kind of brought me around to the physical training i love it yeah. Take us on a journey. Which is against what surfing was about. So we're surfing this kind of wild sort of ledgy, slabby kind of point break. We call it Yemina Beach. Yemina is just a – it's actually inside a waterway a little bit. It's inside what we call Broken Bay, and when it's too big and closing out on these beaches, we just used to go and search out to try and find a way to surf.

So we'd just convoy up. We'd have egg fights on the freeway, all that sort of stuff. We'd get to this point break. We'd find these things, just this ugly, just square, barreling kind of not – it's an ugly wave. But – and we – because we're Australian, we call it pissing point, right? So – because it's a miserable wave. And so anyway, I tell you, we used to take off on the heaviest possible ways

and just pull in. And, you know, it was just a bunch of blokes and it was all a bunch of testosterone. And, you know, I was this weedy little 16-year-old, just skin and bone. And I had a pair of boards. I'll never forget this day. It was May 1977. I had a pair of board shorts on quicksilver back then still and and and and i had a pair

it's just a neoprene top short sleeve just a vest and back then they didn't have a zip to um zip up half up the back so you could pull it on and off easy it was just a just squeeze into the thing and in the war and i and what i did was i took off on this wave and we're all screaming carrying on and i dropped down into the wave and i'll never forget this wave became too low tide by now and we're pushing ourselves and this this way this big part of the reef just drained off dry almost and triple sucking up the face as I'm coming down the wave. On my backside, heel to the wave, heel to the inside rail, and I'm looking down.

Now, this wave's not even going to tube. It's not going to peel over. It's actually just turned into this ugly kind of rapid. And so I've turned away and down into the flat as the wave's drawing off the reef, fairly shallow, and I kind of stuck on that flat piece of water pulling off and into the wave. And it just stopped me or slowed me down, and then the whole wave just landed directly over on top of me,

right on top of my head, and drilled me into the board and twisted my knee and tore it out of place. And as I found out later in the track, it completely severed my ACL and MCL and it just tore my wetsuit off and I ended up in the rocks just floundering in between these rocks and I didn't couldn't understand what just happened to my knee it was just flopping all over the place but that was the start that that moment sort of kicked me into a journey with injury that showed me how to rehabilitate myself and took me on a journey of just full discovery on understanding, well, I got to get back surfing somehow. And no matter what, I have to get back surfing.

Where did that come from? Because there's handfuls of different thoughts that after an injury that could take place, like, I'm not doing that again. Or, oh my God, the future's never going to work out or why me or whatever, whatever. But where did it come from for you to say, well, I've got to, and I'm not sure if that's a desperate statement or that's like an aspirational, like, like what? And so I want to know where it came from and then also understand the tone of what that meant to you as you're a 16-year-old that, you know, with all the promise in the world where people were whispering in your ear, you can be the best in the world. And now you've got a knee that's just barely hanging on. Yeah, it's like there was just no question really, to be honest.

I was going to get back surfing. There was no. Yeah. really to be honest i was going to get back surfing there was no yeah and i don't not sure where that comes from but i'm sure that's mixed in with some desperation because there's pain involved physical pain and there's trauma involved in the in the in the body okay so okay so let's do this then what what led you to the that the hunger or interest or or yeah appetite to go surf an ugly progressive nasty wave like like what led to that because it's probably the same thing that that kept you interested in the future after the injury um like i think it draws down to the intensity

you know the feeling of intensity that i i would get And also there's like an environment with the group, you know, the guys that I was with. We were in this group. It was just guys at the beach. There was no such thing as a girl at our beach. I was like, it was just like, and there was all the girls actually lived in the suburb, like next like next to they didn't come near so we had to go and get it was funny you know we just were just pack of just guys it was a really

close-knit bunch of guys that were just pushing each other surfing and i think that environment you know was very powerful in that that element i, to draw that sort of stuff out of us. It's so important, isn't it? Isn't it wild? Yeah. If there was a word or two words that would describe the culture of that little group that you're a part of, and I'm imagining it's like six or seven guys.

I don't know if it's more than that, but maybe it's – I don't know. How many guys is it? Oh, it would have been, yeah, around six or seven, maybe a couple more on the outside here and there. But it was a good group, solid group, and we're all pushing our surfing. We just live for it. We live for just those moments.

Which moments? Just those moments of where we're engaging in the ocean at that sort of level. You know, we're pushing each other. How important was danger or risk? I think it was pretty strong. Of course, for some of us it was more than others. That element was there for some, and others didn't engage in it so much. But some were less comfortable with that that risky element

and where were you i was up there yeah okay that's it sounds like okay i was up there going for the risk okay so i want to i want to put a pin in that for a minute because i don't want to lose like what was the one or two words that would describe the culture of that pack or that group? It was vibrant. Sometimes cutthroat. That's an interesting combination. So the vibrance, I'm thinking like there's like an aliveness and fun and like you had to be fully switched on for it. And the cutthroat, what was that part about well there's just just just guys trying to figure out how to like survive i think in in amongst guys you know like that that

didn't have uh each other's best interest really at heart at times and then others, they did, you know. There was just times when we got cutthroat and, you know, in competitive moments or, yeah, moments where we wouldn't, you know, we regarded each other as friends, you know, and we had a lot of laughs, like don't get me wrong it was just a really there's a lot of laughter and you know just shenanigans but it's yeah there was times when that that just wasn't present and yeah it got pretty good sometimes got tricky i don't think that's abnormal yeah i i definitely relate to what you're saying that cutthroat piece is i

that's a really cool phrase because it there is a barbarian nature to alpha packs yeah right lord of the flies it's like it's a great little isn't that a good book yeah yeah especially when you put mother nature in the mix where the consequences can be real or are real when you make a mistake. Okay. I love that. And then I'm not going to lose track of that risk question. But if we go back even further to stitch one more thing together is that who was teaching – so mom dies when you're seven. I think you said it was seven, right?

Yeah. Okay. And then you said I turned to the ocean to try to figure it out. You did a lot of exploring and learning that way. And then did you raise uh were you raised by your dad was he in the picture or what what was that system looking like because now we're talking almost like family systems you know what what was your family looking like at that time well um i had a wonderful sister who's very warm she She's five years older than me, two and a half years older than my brother, and she was very warm. My mother's mother came and really pretty much took over the role of my mum,

my grandmother, who was just a wonderful lady, but a very staunch kind of old-school British, religious, had her own religious side by nature, but she never pushed it on us. She was just very, we'd go to church on Sunday. I didn't really understand what was going on then. But she – I had a good relationship with her, but it was always – yeah, she was there and my father was just working really hard. He must have sunk himself into his work and he was a journalist and he became the editor-in-chief of the Sydney

Morning Herald which is a big newspaper in Australia, Sydney it was the largest newspaper in Australia at that point so he worked very hard he sunk himself into that and so I missed my father really in those years. So in many ways I was just, I felt like, and especially for a lot of the kids at the beach back then, and there was no real parental, not very much parental involvement. So we were pretty much kind of, you know, especially as young boys, my grandmother's old school ways, you know, the boys can just, you know, especially as young boys, my grandmother's old school ways, you know, the boys can just, you know, got to get out there and do what they got to do, you know.

She wasn't really, didn't really want to get in, you know, in between that and, you know, for my brother and I. But she was much more and my father was much more attentive to my sister around that. She wasn't allowed out. She wasn't, you know, she wasn't, yeah, she was held. Poor thing. She got pretty angry about that.

But we, but I was, I was out doing what I wanted to at 12 years old. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently,

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That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Looking back, so moms, you're missing mom and you're missing dad's attention in a different way. What were you, what were you craving as a kid, as a kid back then that, well,

I don't sure, to be honest, I guess attention, you know, so I think that's probably maybe at some level I was doing that, but I was getting that in my surfing from various forms. And I guess that was fueling my kind of, oh, you know, my love for it, the ocean. And I just remember a lot of quiet moments by myself where I was really felt connected.

I just loved seeing the beauty in the ocean, you know, the way the light fell on the wave or the situations I'd get myself into in, say, super early. I was always an early morning guy. I'd get up right before light, get my board. I was always out in the ocean like right then on daybreak. That was my, you know, I always tried to get myself. I'd be falling asleep at dinner time, you know. I'd be out there early. Before school, every day, I'd be out there as much as possible.

I'd be looking at the wind out the trees. I'd be out there as much as possible. Looking at the wind, at the trees, I'd be just at school, I'd be looking out in the window, looking at the wind. Just literally my head was outside the school, the classroom, looking at the wind and looking at the sky and the clouds and seeing what it might be like after school. Why did you stay in school? Good question. I actually left school when I was 16 to get – I just knew that I wasn't –

my brother and my sister used to get really high marks. Coming through school without doing much homework or anything, they just get really high marks. Coming through school without doing much homework or anything, they'd just get super high marks. They'd get in the top 5% and they'd be, you know, they'd see this other young carol coming through and they'd go, oh, here's another carol, you know, and I'd go, what, really? What's that mean, you know? So and my head was in a totally different space than my brother and

sister in that regard academically and i my mind was really like looking outside and once i got that connection with those morning times that were super peaceful for me gave me a real peaceful feeling inside but then i had that engagement with the ocean that was always moving and i just um it just made me feel alive i come in you know as i went through my high school years i turned up for school and i just feel so alive and i just go look around i go hmm uh and as the school day had gone i feel like i was sort of like slowing not slowing or something was less attentive to the school and i was getting more attentive to what it might be like in the afternoon yeah yeah yeah i think

that that in that's been a theme that i keep, you know, it's obviously well researched, but this idea that to find what you really love and to, you know, it doesn't feel like you have to work a day in your life, something, there's some better quote than that. But that idea of finding the thing that you love and being able to invest in it is a brilliant idea. And it's really hard, you know, and it's hard when you're not able to be around the people or the thing that, that where you feel most alive. But tell me, tell me what you think about this thought. It's not so much the thing, but it's more about where you feel most alive naturally. And then if we can figure out what that feeling is that may, and where it naturally takes place and around whom it naturally takes place, then we might be able to cultivate that experience in other environments. So let's say surfing and the boys, you were switched on when there was some risk and that full aliveness that and the vibrance, I think is the word you're describing that, you know, I think the path of

wisdom is like, can we do that while we're driving? Can we do that when we're in school? Can we, you know, and obviously as a knucklehead 16 year old, it's hard to do it anywhere other than the natural environment, right? So what do you think of that thought? Does that seem like, would you nod your head to that or would you, you know, raise an eyebrow? I'd nod my head to that or would you you know raise an eyebrow i'd nod my head to it you know it's

definitely it's you know i'll take some years of maturity but uh or just practice have you have you been able to practice or have the maturity to be alive in other environments other than the ocean or are you still saying now without the ocean i'm a wreck i'd say it's sort of coming slowly that and i think it's it's taken a taken its toll sort of just aiming completely entirely at surfing you know what is that what does that mean there's there's a there's a darkness to that but yeah for sure i think i you know and it sort of came up you know like as when my career ended like as far as i just i really made a conscious decision to just to end my and a subconscious decision was made before it but to sort of disengage with full-time competitive surfing and uh and i tried to make certain changes in my life to to smoothen that out but i still didn't know what i was

really doing but um which which you know um by the time i I decided to step off the tour, it was a really tricky move, to be honest. But, yeah, it's taken some time to look at what that might be for me, you know, and it's taken me some pretty sort of dark places. Are you open to talk about what that means? Yeah, yeah yeah for sure i mean you know addiction to drugs was a really big thing for me i was introduced to something that sort of held me above the line you know cocaine and that that sort of pushed me above

the line i'd never and that was with again in an environment where, you know, the people I really looked up to, you know, I was offered this drug, you know, and it seemed like it was a cool thing to do, you know. And for me, I tried it. And to be honest, I didn't really, it didn't really kind of hit the mark until I tried it the second or third time, you know, and again that was in an environment, you know, where we're partying, you know, socialising, you know. And that was the kind of feeling that I guess I was looking for

that sort of put me above the line. And at some level through my life, I always felt like I was a little bit below the line. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. That sounds like depression. Is that? Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. There was some unrecognized sort of thing in me that I felt was sort of, I was a bit below the line. So all of a sudden I kind of got knocked above the line and I went, oh, okay. That sense of being more alive, which I was looking for. Do you remember the first time that you used? Yeah, yeah.

Okay, so walk me through that decision-making process. Yeah, it was just like I was, you know, some really, you know, I was in an environment where there was, you know, I was offered that chance to be involved with a gathering of these guys that I really looked up to is great surfers, you know. And I was actually in Hawaii in 1979 and late 1979. I was feeling quite independent at that stage. I was 18. I kind of, I guess I felt like I was free to move in that space

and I was adventurous. I was just naturally kind of like I was open to trying things. Well, you know, I was open to going in that direction, I guess. And so that day I remember just being offered some and it was a really nice, it just felt like a really, I was warmed in the atmosphere. I felt warm in the atmosphere and I tried it. And in fact, it didn't really do much for me at that point.

And I was going, well, kind of what's the big deal? And then it wasn't until I thought I'd try it again, you know, again that was following in January 1980 when I was in California to surf the Catons event. That was when I tried it again and that time i was again was with the friends i wasn't kind of like searching it out it was just something was there and that's when it really kind of touched me for some reason it was really kind of lifted me above the line more and i was more engaged in everything you know it, it's just, you know, that full dopamine flush and, and, uh, that's when, oh, wow.

So when did it turn from partying to something where it's not partying, where it was, you know, full, full blown, you know, problem. Is there a specific moment in time that you could conjure up there? Or is it a phase? There's this inner knowing. What a great statement. There's an inner knowing, oh God, this is kind of weird. You know, this is kind of, this is not right. You know, you're really looking for it now. And yeah, that's, that sort of, I guess it's your conscience, you know, that flicker, the flicker of light that's sort of flickering on and going on.

No, that's not such a good idea, Tom, going to that, you know, doing that, you know. And did you listen to that voice? A couple of times, yeah. Like that was probably, I did a couple of times, yeah, like that was probably, I did a couple of times literally because it was, and that was easy access and easy. It was like, well, this is kind of – this really could be a problem. I didn't know how to communicate that because I think at some point that I'm in that sort of trying to know, trying to control it back myself because there's this inner thing in me saying,

oh, I should be able to get control of this myself. This is something that you should be able to overcome, Tom, because you're stronger. And so I went on for, you know, and I'd be able to step off it for quite a step off that need and get away from it for quite some good lengthy periods of time and, and step back into what I needed to do, which was to get back into my surfing and really my surfing became a place to,

you know, when the ocean was somewhere that would bring me back to my reality. And then did it get to a place where you need to rehab or a 12-step program or an environment to get you off or like what was that yeah yeah eventually eventually you know um a lot of so it was a bit of a rock a bit of a sort of roller coaster ride with that over the years you know know, it's just a classic kind of pattern really. And then nothing kind of unusual, but I eventually did do rehab time for six weeks in 2006, quite a way down the track. And that was, you know, and i came into the 12-step programs

um at that point and so that was so i haven't had anything since december 18 2006 that's my moment you know like a kind of real awakening at a point and it which is talked about a lot in the 12-step programs. And that was a real kind of opening up of a whole kind of new life. Yeah. Some of my favorite people are those that have faced that dark side, have gone to the edge, and then have created some insight and some sensitivity around what matters most and then have done hard work to get back.

So here's a question for you. sensitivity around what matters most and then have done hard work to get back, you know? And so here's a question for you. Like, what are the two most favorite words that you have? And they could change tomorrow. But right now, as I ask that question, what are the two most important or your two most favorite words that you have? Surrender and forgiveness. I love it yeah yeah surrender because you just described surrendering as well surrendering to the process surrendering to that addict voice inside that filter that was all screwed up and say and then so surrender and then what was the second one

forgiveness okay and then so how does that play out in surfing would you confront there and fight or would you surrender to the wave like would you create a line or would you find the line that the wave was giving you that would be a that would be more of a surrendering approach to surfing yeah well it's a great i love that um actually barton lynch is a good buddy of mine i'll never forget him just one day because he's he goes life's like surfing you know you just gotta you know you just turn and you just look at the section coming up and you can maneuver and you just look at the section and just go with what's going on and then you you move around that part of the wave and you just manoeuvre around the section

and watch the wind and, you know, how the wave's getting affected by the current and then we just, you know, and I just loved it when he did it because he was just so animated. I'll never forget that moment. And it really hit me because I, yeah, it is. It's, for me, you know, back in the day I would really want to – I grew up in that environment of power surfing. It was all about, you know, dominating the wave.

And I loved that idea. You know, I loved watching the strength of surfers like Simon Anderson, you know, Ian Cairns, then Dane Kealoha, you know, Sean Thompson was very powerful. These surfers had a strong effect on me. Michael Peterson really early in the day. And so when I had that sort of wanted to dominate the wave and I wanted to surf big waves like I was surfing little waves

and that's how I really like to approach Hawaii and and I was really affirmed by that by great you know great results in Hawaii and a lot of recognition but you know that comes to an end at some point and I do know that I was I was given that sort of sensitivity to understand how the water's moving and that over many, many times, you know, shown by the ocean that I don't really have that much power and that it has the ultimate sort of say in many situations, especially, you know, in big surf and dangerous conditions, which are really enticing for me but yeah dominating the

wave you know really you know and that that had to change over time and it has to change it's changed for me a lot today has that affected your surfing and the reason i'm asking that is because like i i would get scared in the water and And I'm listening to you talking about big waves and you would come more alive. And as soon as it would get over, I don't know, 12, 13, 14 feet, I'm doing everything I can to kind of keep myself together. And there's some part of me that's really alive and excited when it's working, but getting thr on on the on the impact zone and like

i don't know like so i'm listening to you talking about it and i'm going i don't know if i have that i don't know if i ever had what you're describing and so i'd love to learn more about that yeah and i think that sort of it's sort of I think it's hard to say. But for me, I remember I had a really good buddy that I learned was just surfing with. He was my first good surfing buddy. His name was Alan French. And he was the first guy to get a fiberglass surfboard and, you know, a really good buddy.

And I had to try and sort of borrow guys' surfboards and so on at that point. And I think we were about sort of 12, 11, maybe even younger, 10 or 11, and we'd spend as much time at the beach as possible on holidays or even before school or whatever. But as soon as the waves got around about three feet or maybe a little bit bigger, I'd be trying to find him and he just kind of disappeared on me. And I'd be actually wanting to paddle out.

So I'd borrow his board and I'd kind of like start to realise that, you know, he wouldn't be, oh, I've got a cold or mum wants me to do that or dad, you know, I've got to do something at home, I've got something else to do or something, it'll be on the phone. Come on, Alan, this is good. Where were you? So it was at that point that I realised that, you know,

and the older guys basically goes, oh, you'd much rather go out, wouldn't you? You're not like that pussy out. Frenchie's a pussy, you know. And I'd be going, but he's not. He's a really cool guy, you know. But I remember that point at that time that there was something different between me and him and it actually

became more apparent as I got older that I was a bit different than my buddies because my father would I remember one day before school I think I was 13 at that point, 13 or 14 I was surfing the south end of the beach and I'd kind of woken up real early in the morning. I'd run down with my board. Back then we were surfing six threes.

That was sort of like a – kind of a big board for now. But it was pretty big at the south end of Newport, this uh the this break we called the pool and it was closing out there was no one out there and and i thought i'm going to try and get out there and so i try i got a perfect lull and i got out there and i just got myself in the perfect spot it was glassy and it was solid and i'm like, I've got a couple of waves and it's just flying down these waves. And I remember looking in at the surf club, which is a surf life-saving club. You don't really have them in the US, but it was right on the beach there

and it's kind of a feature of the beach. And that's where you used to hang out. And I could see my buddies and my father at the surf club because my father used to come down and do he used to run the beach every morning and used to grab me out of the water every morning at 20 past seven to go to school he never let me have a day off school and so but he'd be on the beach going calling me in but that day he couldn't because it's too far out and um apparently he was telling my buddies to get out there and tell me to come in. None of them would come out.

So there's something going on. Yeah, that's what I thought, right? But just listening to you, Ty, I didn't know any of that story that you just described, but I was feeling like my experience has been very different than yours. And do you think that well i i guess i've got a lot of questions but what were you looking for were you looking for approval from the beach like oh my god tom is crazy or were you looking for the rush that was coming was it a combination of both you know was it was it something else like what what were you really

looking for well there wasn't much. Like there wasn't – I wasn't looking. I don't think I was looking for recognition. I just saw the surf and I just responded. Yeah, okay. And I paddled out and thinking I might not get out, but I just opened up. The ocean sort of opened up a window for me to get out. And I remember that morning pretty clearly because I got it.

I wasn't looking for recognition while I was out there, but I got it when I came in in that form. My dad was a bit angry because it took me a while to get in, and my father was a bit angry, and then I didn't get to see a couple of my friends until I was at school and then they were saying oh you're crazy at you know so I was going I know I was having a good time and I was actually enjoying it and then down the track many years down the track that kind of parent with certain surfers that I got involved with that I really liked surfing with. And now it's like kind of a normal thing.

There's a whole bunch of guys we like to call crazy, but they're doing absolutely amazing things in huge ways. So there's something that some people have and, yeah, it became apparent that Alan French, my buddy, just didn't have it. And that was cool. For me, it didn't bother me at all. I still really liked surfing with Alan.

I didn't sort of find no use in saying, Alan, you've got to come surfing with me. You're a pussy. It didn't seem – that was never something that came to mind for me. Is there a word or phrase that cuts to the center of what you understand most? Well, I think that you sort of talk, we're just talking about honesty, being at the kind of core.

I think honesty, it's a tricky thing for us all, whether we, you know, and that's been a real big thing for me to be, and for me, when I read, you know, Finding Mastery podcast, and I say, okay, I'm trying to sort of gather what I might be talking about here on your podcast, and I go, well, and I'm reflecting right now as to times when I was really finding the mastery of my love of surfing, finding that mastery, it demanded to me to be honest with everything I was doing, both, you know, most importantly with myself.

That first because, you know, I needed to be honest to get forward. It was very important so yeah i'd say honesty is is that you know that's what i strive to go for in those areas you know so that brings me to that to the to reality i think golly you know the the depth of what you're saying um you know this is this is exactly why i fired up this post-doctoral training you know this postgraduate training is because like to get to this essence which is okay mike when we really strip it down it is about being honest with oneself first and the courage that takes to actually do something with that is i think ridiculously hard it is and it's such a journey you know there's we and i love that

one progress not perfection and i learned that in recovery i didn't learn that before. And I had to go to that place, that place before I got to learn that, that's of such deep deception. And so coming back and seeing how that honesty is at the very center of our growth chance for growth and then if you go back to when you were at your best what is the ideal competitive mindset like is are you intense are you angry are you smooth are you silky like how do what are the words or the word that you describe for your ideal competitive mindset it's just um vibrant and alive uh but but if you say silky and smooth that sounds really kind of fits in with that too so there's this sort of like super vibrant alive but but calm okay so this is a calmness but i'm super vibrant and alive and then what would you do to train or position yourself for that calmness?

Well, you know, I did learn to do some metal training, you know, with the breath for a while of just forcing the physical too much. And then I came and I was going for that third world title. That was when I started to come into that more understanding of where to use my breath and calm, be more calm. And that became more powerful. And I think that's a real key and it's most definitely today. I do, I love listening to some of your podcasts around meditation and where your guests have talked

about the benefits of meditation, and I think that could be very, very powerful. I mean, it's definitely helped me become more engaged in surfing today. Back then, I would have loved to have had that in my game. Oh, God, me too. Flat out. Yeah. So what does it look like for you now?

Or what does an ideal practice for you look like? Is it sitting, walking, breathing? What is it? Are you counting minutes? Are you counting breaths? Are you just kind of going for a feeling? For you, what does it look like, ideally? I just sit.

Actually, when I came into recovery, I really took on board the meditation and prayer. That started 10 years, a little bit over 10 years now ago, and I applied that pretty much. I don't know. I just put that in my life because I knew that that was something that was allowing my, you know, I was getting in touch with the breath and I was using the breath.

And, you know, I read a bunch of literature on mindfulness and meditation and I was guided into some nice stuff with some practitioners today you know i re-engage with it uh on a daily basis so that says like a 20 minutes in the morning usually 20 minutes in the afternoon when i get a chance uh and that's just with the breath and a mantra so that that's just a practice or a sit and just let and set up for the meditation and breathe and try. Well, I don't try. I just sort of allow and not try to achieve anything other

than just attending to it. That's how I've been guided. And I think that's had a really strong impact on my ability to paddle out in the ocean today and just be in rhythm god love it is your mantra on the inhale and exhale or just the exhale uh it's on the inhale and exhale but now i've actually started to just do the mantra i'm starting to get to that point where I'm just using, just really, it almost becomes abstract, the mantra.

Yeah. It's just, and I hadn't used the mantra until I was guided into it. I was searching for more, another way a little bit at the beginning of last year, and it just sort of came my way uh listened to it and i was with my partner now mary and we we just were lucky enough to sort of run into someone who guided us into this practice in july last year and so we've we stayed with it and it's been awesome yeah it's really cool and you know there's a there's a journey inside the journey to find a mantra that fits and it doesn't mean once you find it you don't change

it but for for right now and then there's also some privacy around it so i'm not going to ask you what your mantra is but you know there's some privacy around that and you want to keep that at least my thought has always been to keep that sacred yeah yeah so for sure yeah and does it feel right to you now absolutely yeah is it multiple words or is it one or two words it's like a two it's like a two-phased uh word and it's it's it is lovely with the breath and i do generally kick it off with the breath yeah there you go brilliant Brilliant. Okay, so then we talked about failure. How do you...

One of the winningest professional surfers ever, Kelly Slater, besides Kelly Slater, right? Yeah. How do you define success? Hmm. Hmm. Wow, that's such a personal thing. I'm not sure how to verbalize it. I guess, you know, finding, well, not finding, just being present. I think that's a real success for me because I've been so, you know, I'm so distracted.

I know it's coming down to the really bare minimum, but stripping it back, you know, being able to, you know, for me, being successful is actually being able to step beyond myself. God, I love it. Okay, last question. How do you articulate or define or think about the concept of mastery? That would be pretty much an ongoing thing. I would say something would be second nature, something to be worked on over time, many, many failures and many, many little successes.

And then that would be sort of built into my system so it's a subconscious movement and and then just be borne out in my actions without too much effort i think um that'd be mastery for me brilliant okay thank you and where can people follow you find you like where because there's going to be folks hopefully that are through this conversation will be introduced to you um that weren't familiar with the surfing world you know so like where can people connect with you what's the best way to do that ah good well i've got instagram it's under thomas victor carroll it's a lowercase thomas victor carroll uh and i've got a personal facebook i don't have an athlete one but my personal one's just tom car. You can contact me through there.

I'm always open to reply. I do have a website that's Tom Carroll Paddle Surf because I love to do the paddle surf stuff, which is fully engaging for me. Is that stand-up? Yeah, it's such a challenge physically um you know and that's what i love the challenge you know and i think with the stand-up paddle surf you know where you get to stand up you're going to use your whole body you use the paddle you've got your everything switched on and you've got a whole new i when i got the paddle in my hand i got for the first i was just hopeless i was falling all the way over the place

and it took a while for my body to get the memory to get it all switched on that it's all working at the right time at the same time and i could get get some get some yeah again rhythm get some yeah movement and skill with the paddle it's such a foreign thing for your average surfer yeah no i love it it's a great challenge and listen tom uh you're a legend uh thank you for your time and thank you for your insight and i uh your honesty and your ability to think before you just let something ramble out of your mouth was noticeable to me. And I loved the contemplation, the insight, the courage to be honest, and the experiences that you've been through up and, you know, including loss of loved ones, including rehab, including multiple world titles and championship opportunities that you've captured. And so, you know, you can't say you're a legend. It's only what other people say about you.

So I'm going to say you're a legend. And thank you. Yeah. So, Tom, thank you. Thank you for this. And I just hope in some way that we're going to be able to reconnect in the future. And yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah michael

thank you yeah thank you it's been a pleasure okay wishing you the best you too okay All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback.

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