Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Bob Hurley, Hurley International Founder

Episode Date: July 18, 2018

This week’s conversation is with Bob Hurley, founder and chairman of the global apparel brand, Hurley.Something I love about these Finding Mastery conversations is we get to learn from people at all stages, across unique fields of expertise.And in this conversation we get to learn from someone who built a globally recognized brand, which was acquired by Nike in 2002.Bob has made his work his play from the beginning.He started as a surf shop kid in Huntington Beach, shaping surf boards before acquiring the license to Billabong USA in 1982.In 1999, he started his own clothing brand embracing the spirit and creativity of youth.Bob has a phenomenal story to share and he opens up about how he built Hurley into the company that it is today, what his process looks like for making big decisions, and why he has a burning desire to be around “magic.”He remains deeply involved in company operations today, except when “product-testing” in Indo or Fiji._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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because we think we want more money. We think we want a bigger contract. We want a bigger car. We want to win whatever we win. And it's not really what we want. Those are fun things along the way, but we really just want love. It seems like. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist and the co-founder of Compete to Create. And my partner in that is head coach Pete Carroll from the Seattle Seahawks, where we've taken his insights and practices on how to switch on cultures, high-performing cultures, and then my insights and practices on how to train

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global apparel brand Hurley. Something I love about these conversations is that we get to learn from people at all stages across unique fields of experience. And in this conversation, we get to learn from someone who built a globally recognized brand, which was acquired by Nike back in 2002. So Hurley is a staple in the surf world. And for me, this conversation was like, it was really cool. It's just to sit across from somebody who built a brand on the back of an idea and how he did it, that literally has been so influential in the surf brand was just, it's a nice little gem, but that was like my special little treat in it. And I think for you that might not be interested in the surf apparel brand,

like thinking about a business, starting out, growing it from just a handful of people to something that was acquired by Nike that had changed in industry. So imagine that having a footprint across the globe about something that matters to you. That's what this conversation is about. And he literally started this mission as a kid in a surf shop in Huntington Beach, shaping surfboards before acquiring the license to Billabong USA in 1982. And I had no real idea how the licensing model works. So we get into that a bit. And then back in 99, he started his own clothing brand, Embracing the Spirit of Creativity of Youth. How rad. I mean, seriously, let's build a brand on the vibrancy of young people and their creative juices. And that's what Hurley is about.

And Bob has a phenomenal story to share. And he opens up about how he's built Hurley into the company that it is today and what his process looks like for making important decisions. Sometimes people call them big decisions, but things that are like kingpin decisions, how he does that and why he has a burning desire to be around, quote unquote, magic. I think you're going to love that story. So literally he needs no more introduction. So let's jump right into this conversation with Bob Hurley. What is your life like? My life's amazing. Honestly, every day, I'm not sure exactly what's going to happen. And at the end of the day, I say, that was incredible. Is that how you've organized

your life or is that the benefit of having financial success? Gee, I never feel like I've organized my life and I have a lot of benefits of some, you know, a moderate amount of financial success. And so it gives me a little bit of freedom, I suppose. Yeah. Okay. So let's spend some time to figure out three parts.

How you see the world. Right. Where you are, where you're coming from, like the things that are driving you and you're motivated by, and then also like some mental skills that you might've used to figure out success, right? Whatever that means. Okay. So if we're thinking about where you came from, let's start there. What were some of the early days like for you? Did you go by Bob or Bobby or Robert? That's a good question.

I used to go by Robert. And then for some reason in seventh grade, it changed to Bobby. But I didn't change it. And I didn't even ask for Robert. I don't know what happened exactly. It's like all blurry. Okay. So seventh grade, things changed a little bit.

Yeah, a little bit. Because Robert's formal. Bob. And is it Bobby? Or I know you by Bob. Yeah. People call me Bob. Yeah. But for a little bit. Because Robert's formal, Bob, and is it Bobby or? I know you by Bob. Yeah, people call me Bob. Yeah, but for a while it was Bob. Or other names that I can't repeat. But yeah, they're mostly Bob. And they're all fine. I just like being called. Do you? Yeah. Okay, so early days, it was Robert, then Bob. And then what happened?

I don't know. I should back up a little. I kind of grew up around the world, a citizen of the military, courtesy of the Air Force. So I was fortunate enough to travel a lot when I was little. I lived in four or five different places, one being Japan for three years. And at that age, it made a big impression on me. So that was kind of cool. And I guess once they started calling me Bobby, I don't know, I got into surfing after that. So surfing happened around seventh, eighth grade in that range? Uh, 10th grade. Yeah. I was a late surfer. Yeah. Yeah. I got there relatively late as well. Did you? Yeah. Looking like, so we've got many mutual friends actually. And this is the first time that we've met. Right. And

following your story, well, not the business side, but the actual internal experience of life. Yeah. We've got some similar experiences, a deep craving for the ocean, like wanting to maybe at one time take a professional route. Yeah. If I was any good and not delusional. Same with me. Right. Yes.

Of course. What a fun job, huh? Oh, my God. Yeah. I mean, the pro-life is pretty special. It can be. It would have been better at your age than my age, though. Had I got what I wanted, I don't think I would have liked it.

It was tough for those guys at that time period because I'm talking like, you know, 73 to 78. I kind of wanted to do that. And wow, knowing what I know now, those guys were special, man. They were superhumans. Yeah, because it was so pure. Right. Their passion was so pure. And then, you know, now, if you look back now, or not when you look back, but in context now, you can make a living being a professional surfer.

Yeah, not bad. Yeah, you're right. Like some of them proper. Yeah, some highly paid. Yeah, and some are like barely making it, you know, trying to figure it out. And so there is that, you know, variance between the elite elite and then some that are just making tour. Yeah, it's kind of like being a doctor in that range, which is pretty good, really, right? Yeah, right.

I never thought about that. Well, I didn't either until just now. You made me think of it because I was just thinking about the superstars get really kind of paid a lot. But that is just so rare. And the same in doctoring. And then most of the great doctors I know don't make much money at all, which is kind of like the surfers. Even though it's a bit, you know, it's expensive to do what they do as well. Yeah, that's a great point.

Okay. All right. So let's go back. Early days. Yeah. Travel the world. Japan was an influence. In what way?

Well, you know, Japan's culture was so different. I remember, uh, I remember a Buddhist priest coming to get us little kids on, maybe it was boys day. Uh, and we ran around to all the sick people in the village and put sand on their door and he lit some incense and said some stuff. I mean, that makes quite an impression on a young lad. I remember taking baths in like a 55-gallon barrel made out of wood, you know, having hot water pouring in. I remember big, giant spiders. I remember tsunami warnings. I remember all kinds of crazy stuff on the base, like all kinds of neat things. I remember my good Japanese friend Kyushu. Learned how to speak Japanese when I was six.

It was fun. Wow. So how has that influenced your adulthood, your adult life? Yeah. Wow. How would that? I mean, in so many ways. Well, in one way, I've always thought Small World was the best ride at Disneyland.

I just love different people from different cultures. And I think one thing that did teach me one specific thing was to sort of welcome diversity and try to benefit from it and not consider it a nuisance or a hindrance or like inconvenient. I don't know. I mean, I was such a young kid. Who knows what it really taught me. I think four or five that I would have called home at times. And the very diverse cultures, the different teams you need to try to be on or assimilate into, or the different schools, the different accents, you know, the different styles of dress or behavior, I think is all kind of interesting. You know, I've read about your company. This was one of the reasons I was really excited to meet you is that you're not trying to be, how did you put it? You're not trying to be successful from a business put it? You're not trying to be successful

from a business standpoint, but you're trying to be great every day. There's something along those lines. Does that sound true to you? Well, I think, yeah, I think that's fair. You know, we at this company and why we started the brand, we believe in youth. We believe in their voice for the future. We want to be part of it. And we believe in inclusion and diversity. And we love being around people that aren't like us and maybe even don't like us. And we would like to talk about that and have some fun together if we could, you know, who doesn't want to be part of something fun that that's the man's not talking down to him. And, uh, yeah. So we launched our brand on that premise kind of, was this in 2009? No, this was in 1999. Right. So at the turn of the millennium, which yeah, that's not going to happen again for a long time. I'm not smart, but I know that and everything was changing and we were just there at the right time. Yeah. Okay. So, so you had a relationship with Billabong. Yes.

And I don't know if you still do. I don't know what that relationship is, but now your competitors, rivals, friends, I'm not sure how you think about that business, but you had an exclusive license. Yes. With Billabong selling in the States. Yes. And was that a good business for you? That was a fantastic business.

You know, more than we could have ever hoped for or dreamt of and more fun and more challenges and more opportunities and more setbacks than you could ever shake a stick at. But net, net, just an astounding experience. And so we had the U.S. license for Billabong from 1983 to 1999. And that was with our friend Gordon that started Billabong and his wife, Rena. And they let us into the clothing business by letting us sell their wonderful brand in the States that turned into a license. Then we learned how to manufacture, design, do everything involved with it. Marketing, you know, we were instrumental part of some of the marketing efforts you may or may not have seen at Billabong. And, and it was a good team. Like we, we just worked well together with the Australian team and that was super fun.

And then at one point, you know, the world was changing. Everyone was changing. We had a little bit of creative differences and we just decided to give it back and do our own thing. Okay. I know we're kind of, I feel like we rushed over early life because I do want to understand that as a base. But this is really critical for me as a, this is another reason I wanted to sit with you is how did you make that decision to go from a successful business to cutting the cable in many ways and, and then starting up your own idea? I love it. Looking back, it's like, of course you would do that looking at the brand that you've built now, but I'd like to understand

that decision-making process. Yeah. I think, uh, I don't want to be glib about it, but it seemed like something that had to happen more than a strategy. You know, life has its twists and turns, and the Billabong run was amazing and awesome. But like I said, there were some creative differences at the end. Billabong really wanted to be only a surf company, and we that were all working on billabong in the states wanted to participate in with our friends in skateboarding and music and we loved high fashion you know and we wanted to consolidate

and blend all that for a newer kind of brand and that didn't really suit what billabong was trying to do so there was some some divergence there but but really going into the thing. So what happened was in 97, I got diagnosed with kidney cancer. I don't talk about it much. And, you know, at that time there was no internet. So you read in the medical journal, my wife and I, Shelly, are sitting there going, oh, wow, metastasizes to bone, brain, and lungs. Fatal. You're like, okay, killer. Kidney cancer.

All right. Well, let's do this. And then so we went through the process, which I would never trade ever in the history of the world. Turned out to be the biggest blessing ever. But going through this process over a couple of years of I might die, and then here I am 20 years later. So I didn't, obviously. But going through the process of like what's important, what do I like? What do I not like? And I just decided, kind of just laying in the hospital, you know, the Billabong license is almost up. It's been astounding.

And I wonder if I should keep doing that or just do something altogether different, you know, what made sense. And the thing that made sense the most about Billabong, because we'd done it so long, was just that to keep that because it was a money-making machine. It really was. It was a highly functioning business, very profitable. But the sort of newness and joy and ability to create something different had worn off a little. And at that point in your life, you're like, yeah, why not try something different? What's the downside? Well, I could think of a few, but you didn't entertain them. Well, we always calculate the downside on everything, honestly. Okay.

So let's pull on that. I can't. God, there's so much I want to say to you right now. You want to slap me, probably. No, like cancer. Like cancer. Yeah. And then the way you evaluate it, what do I like?

What do I don't like? How do I want to be? How do I want to organize my life? Yeah. Like those types of big questions. Right. And so I want to be, how do I want to organize my life? Yeah. Like those types of big questions. Right. And so I don't, I want to come back to that, but how do you calculate decisions? Well, yeah, that's, yeah.

Thanks for asking me that. Cause sometimes I tell these young whippersnappers and they look at me like I might be a little cuckoo. So there's two, there's really only two things I think. One is I try to run the business based on the golden rule because I think it's a huge culmination of every book you read. I think it all boils down to the golden rule. So treat others as you'd like to be treated. That would be one thing.

But then the other, I actually learned at Long Beach State from a wonderful professor, Mr. I think it was Mr. Copps. It was a Bayesian decision-making method, B-E-Y-S-I-A-N. And you assign mathematical values to the upside and the downside and all the potential things that could happen and percentages and probabilities. And then you do that math, which doesn't take long at all. And you just kind of get a rough draft. They're all guesses, so it doesn't matter. And then you compare that with your heart or your gut. And in my case, praying like what's my destiny, where am I supposed to go? I'm really seeking hard to find my destiny. I think it's out there. I don't think it's just handed it to you, but I think it's out there and

I'm trying as hard as I can to find mine always. And so I mix those three things together and that kind of does something for me. Wow. That's really cool. I mean, you're using a term that we talk about a lot in sports science, which is a Bayesian model. It's like, Oh, you do? Yeah. In sports science. I didn't know that. Oh yeah, for sure. I always feel like I'm from outer space when I tell people nobody's interested in it that I've met. No, well, it's, it doesn't sound cool, right? Like it's very pop culture to say, listen to your heart, listen to whatever. That's very pop culture. But you're accounting for that.

You're accounting for your intuition. Yeah, that's a part of it. But you run through a probability process. Yes. And you do it in a formal, structured way. You actually write down variables and then probability of those variables, whether above the line or below the line. Yes. Is that how you're doing it?

Yeah. But, you know, I'll guess. I'll say, well, that's got a 60% chance of happening, this particular issue right here. And that's all gut or intuition or what do you want to call it? That's not a massive amount of research I'll do on each of those. Okay. This is high level. Yeah.

Okay. So then you literally do a positive negative. I said above the line, below the line. Yeah. Like a positive negative. I said above the line, below the line, but like a positive negative. And then you'll say, okay, the likelihood of variable A, B, C, and D is whatever percentages. And then you'll do on the other side. And then you just look at them. Yeah. Well, I'll put a weight to each of them. The importance of each too. You do put the importance to it. This is number one, this is number five, da, da, da, da. And if number one is a hundred percent chance of success, you're probably going to go with it. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. Unless it contradicts my intuition or my heart or my desire. So you're using pure logic there. I don't know. I love it. Yeah, you are. It was one of my hardest classes in college, but I think my most productive, honestly.

Logic or? Logic. Philosophy and logic. Those are your hardest? Yeah, because I couldn't – day one, I started arguing with the professor, Dr. Wenstrom. He wrote on the board day one, truth and logic are not always related, and sometimes they differ severely. And of course, I had to raise my hand and start arguing right away because I just didn't believe that, but it's true. Yeah. So I minored in epistemology. Oh yeah.

I minored in like philosophy and it's hard. It's hard. I wish I would have majored it in some ways. You know, it's part of my life quest and it's hard because just that very simple concept that truth and logic don't always work together. Yeah. It's hard. Damn it. Right. So what's, so then did you get into the study of like truth with a small T, truth with a big T, like the difference between those? You know what? I probably dropped out of the class after two months. I had two kids, two jobs, and I was trying to get through it all. Did you finish school?

No, but I didn't realize that that's what an alumni was. So the Long Beach State alumni group called me up and wanted to do a feature because they did on former alumni. And I said, no, no, I'm not into that. And they're like, well, Steve Martin did it, like Governor Jerry Brown. I'm like, all right. So I spent like three hours with the newspaper kids. They came by. It was really fun. I liked them all. They asked me kind of intriguing questions and pushed me on some stuff. And then two days later, they called me. They're like, we can't find what year you graduate. And I said, oh, no, I actually, my professor asked me to leave when I had six units to go because I kept falling asleep in class.

And they go, well, it's an alumni thing. So I said, well, if I would have finished college, I would know what alumni is. I thought it was just if you went there. That is awesome. No degree here. All right. So you kept falling asleep. Yeah.

What was going on there? Business law class. It was incredibly boring at 1.30 in the afternoon after working at the old spaghetti factory all night and making surfboards in the morning. Okay. And you said at the time, kids? Yep. Okay. But my wife was doing all that work. I don't want to act like I was working on them. She was doing everything. She did the heavy lifting. She just did. Yeah. Cool. And you have three. Yeah. Yeah. yeah okay so six units to go yeah maybe it might be nine not much yeah two three classes and then you said yeah you're right he said it hurt mr lee that's very rude you keep falling asleep in my class i've talked to you numerous times i'd

suggest next time you do that you just leave so i did it again and he tapped me he's like looked at me and i said oh okay time okay. Time to leave. Yep. Sorry. And then you never came back. No, it's not. It's not a big deal. Like, but it sounds like you really enjoy learning. I love learning. I didn't enjoy school very much, honestly. The formal process.

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Okay. So then let's go back to Bayesian model for statistical probability analysis that you push ideas through or to make decisions. And then you line it up with your heart. Yep. And I think you said something else. Well, does it seem like my destiny? Does it seem like God's will for my life? Because I believe there is one, but not everybody does,

but call it destiny, call it whatever. Okay. So let's spiritual framework for a minute. Do you have a spiritual framework? Yeah. I believe in God, but I'm a real simple guy. I like the golden rule and love your neighbor as yourself and love the Lord God. So that's it. And so is it more Christian-based? Yep, Christian-based. Yeah, okay. And then do you practice?

I need to, yeah. And so is there a way that you structure being close? I pray, I read my Bible. Both of those? Yeah. And is that a daily thing, a weekly thing, a monthly thing? I'll pray every day, yeah. And then—

Yeah, over little decisions too, which is kind of funny because it seems like—I'm sure God doesn't care whether I give my ukulele away or not, you know. But it just seems to help me mentally. It's probably, you know, sometimes you're counseling yourself, right? Yeah, prayers—okay, so all 11 world religions have some sort of contemplative tradition, whether it's prayer or listening or a combination of both. And the Christian faith certainly has both. Prayer and contemplative meditation is a practice, two different practices. And the second is more observing and listening. And the first is more talking and asking, right? As a general kind of rule. So are you doing more of the And the first is more talking and asking, right? As a general

kind of rule. So are you doing more of the first, which is more talking and asking, or is it a way for you to sort out the important stuff? Is it gratitude-based prayer? Is it thankfulness prayer? Or is it like, hey, help me understand? It could be all of those, but I'm completely undisciplined. Yeah. Yeah. I don't have a regime or, you know, I mean, I like to thank God when I wake up every day that I'm breathing again, simple, my heart's still beating. Yeah. That kind of stuff. Yeah. So you, you, you come off in conversations as being simple, but I don't get you. I don't get you as that way. Yeah. Yeah. Like anyone who's going to push

ideas through a Bayesian model and is going to build a global brand that has made a difference in the industry that you love. And then to be able to partner or sell to another global brand. There's nothing simple about those thoughts. Yeah. It's nice to have some basics to follow all along the way though. So you don't get confused, you know, like those simple thoughts. Yeah. So that, so that's how you approach it. It's like a spine, you know, it's got to tie back into that or kind of useless. That's what I want to get to. Like what is the spine for you? So it sounds like part of the spine is gratitude, God, and a Christian framework.

Yep. And those are the only two I have right now. And then a decision-making process. Yeah. And then what are some of the other core stuff? Well, I want to be around magic. I mean, that's, that's my burning desire is to be around magic and gifted humans. So I, God, I love that. You do? Oh my God. Yeah. Cause I want to be part of making magic. I mean, the world could be a pretty dull, depressing place if you choose to look at it like that,

but it can also be a magical, wonderful place where you can learn every day and groups of people can do amazing things together. That's, that's all I personally have ever wanted to be a magical, wonderful place where you can learn every day and groups of people can do amazing things together. That's, that's all I personally have ever wanted to be part of something magic. Like I was pretty, I told you I didn't start surfing till late. I was good at sticking ball sports. I'm not scared to say it. I was really good. And I had gifts. I don't know why they were crazy, but as they, as they begin to fall away and as I got older and smaller, slower, whatever it is, and less skilled, I began to really just want to be part of a team of those amazing people that had those same gifts, you know, and just do whatever I could to help. So it's been kind of like that in making surfboards, making skateboards. It's been like that in business. It's been like that in surfing. And

so I'm always looking to be an enabler, if you will, encourager, financier, just so I can play. I just want to be part of your magic. I want to be on your team. Everyone I've ever worked with, it's great. I've had a small part of it and they've had their big craft as well. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. And so you and I know many of the same athlete, but we know lots of similar athletes in the surf world. And they do things that when you and I were surfing, we didn't even imagine. We would draw. Do you remember drawing on the back of whatever, like the notebook, your school notebook, these perfect waves and this, that, and the other, and what it was like to have like a five second barrels, 10 second barrel. I remember.

Yeah. Oh my God. Now they do it. And so yeah, they're doing things. Right. And so you play a small part, probably a little bit more than small. And I just want to be around the same type of experiences because, so I measure success, daily success, by how many times hair stands up on my

body. Yeah. I always tell people, I just got goosebumps. That's weird, right? Because that's kind of what I'm looking for. Me too. Like, oh man, that's fantastic. Nobody thought that could be done. Let's do it. That's amazing. Yeah. And so that's called the, that's not called, that is the science of awe. It's the applied science of awe. And there's some actually interesting science around it. Really? Yeah. So you're living. Oh, I can't wait to read about it.

Yeah, yeah. I'll send you some stuff for sure. Because I always am in awe of people. And many of them I've worked with. And some I'd like to work with. And yeah, it's just fun to be around. And you can help. You can always help.

Because they have their deficient areas or needs. How do you manage not being too soft, not being too positive and, you know, this naive, optimistic, Pollyannish way? Like, how do you manage the toughness required as well? Right. Well, for my own life, I try not to manage it. I used to have difficulty giving out compliments and I used to work for people that didn't like to give out compliments, real men's men, so to speak. And I lived with that for a while and I just decided, well, I'll be truthful with you.

When my friends started passing away, I've had a lot of them, really a lot. I just said, you know what? Every time somebody does something I like and I want to give them a compliment, I, really a lot. I just said, you know what? Every time somebody does something I like and I want to give them a compliment, I'm not holding back. I don't care if I sound like I'm Pollyanna. I'm trying to get ahead with you. I'm not. I'm just going to say what I think. Now, a lot of times people think I'm kidding, but I'm not. You know what I mean? They think, oh, he's just trying to be a nice guy. No, I'm not. I, I, I value every minute of life. And, uh, I don't know when I'm seeing person X, if I will see them again. And I, I'm very, very, very aware of that. And,

uh, I'm really sensitive when people aren't, and it really bums me out when people aren't aware of that whole, the frailty of life and Hey, nothing's guaranteed. And, come on man be nice hey come on yeah we all want a hug right when you're speaking i can hear it in your voice yeah can you feel it in your body uh yeah yeah i can get kind of emotional about it yeah and then okay so i'd love for you to chin check me on this a little bit all right i'm getting yeah i'm getting from you like the importance of authenticity and the fragility of life. And so each moment matters. So honor it.

It's all we get. You don't know this, but people listening to this conversation right now are going, oh my God, they sound like they've read the same books and had the same life and have come up with the same ideas. Yeah. Yeah. And because- Do you think that's why we like each other?

Or is it a stretch to say that you like me? I think it's funny. Sometimes I hear people talk and I say they're so smart. And then I go back to my mirror and brush that there was a natural syncopation that was taking place early. But now I'm understanding what that actually is. Okay. But back to the nice part. Yeah. Sometimes that's – I've learned over the years like if you're thinking something negative, say it too. Not just compliments. Like if you're in a work situation, you know what?

You needed to do that. You didn't do it. I just want you to know that. I ain't situation, you know what, you needed to do that. You didn't do it. I just want you to know that I ain't mad at you, but like you didn't do it. And I used to be very scared to do that. And sometimes people would be surprised, like you seem really happy with my, I'm like, no, I actually told you like 15 times, but you didn't take me seriously. Cause I didn't seem a little aggressive or something. However, you're supposed to seem when you're a boss. That has certainly been a liability at times, but I would say on whole, not at all. Yeah. Okay. So sometimes people have been surprised when you have to let them go, or there's been some sort of parting of their current responsibilities.

An unfavorable decision that they don't like and yeah, whatever it is. Yeah. Okay. They're like, wow, he's serious. Wow. Okay. That's weird. I didn't know he was serious. Yeah. Because you don't walk around with he's serious. Wow. Okay. That's weird. I didn't know he was serious. Yeah. Because you don't walk around with a big stick. Yeah. You walk around more of a positive, supportive. Right, right, right, right.

Usually by the time I decide to make a decision that may be upsetting to some people, I've thought about it for a long, long time. I'm never just throwing stuff out there. Are you introverted or extroverted? Well, all through school, I was introverted. And I don't know what I am now. I go back and forth. I could be scared to go to my best friend's birthday party with only 10 other best friends

because I just can't face people right then. Or I could be in front of 20,000 people and be as comfortable as could be. And I can't really predict how, when, or where, which I guess is like sports performance. Sometimes you can't make a layup at all. Sometimes you can't miss all the three pointers. Yeah. So when I think of introversion, I think of internal processing, like listening and making sense and like mulling things over. And that's a place to gather energy. Do you talk out loud when you think, or do you listen? I internalize everything.

You internalize. I think about – I had a – I guess it's an okay habit but not that healthy. I used to – at the end of the day, I would rewind every conversation that happened all day, literally every single one. Oops, missed that. Oops, missed that. Wish I wouldn't have said that. Just on and on and on. And then finally when that's done, I could go to sleep. Oh my God. That's like- It's kind of a curse, but a blessing too.

That's like serious training from a memory standpoint. So there's some memory stuff that you're working on there, but also from an insight, like how did I do as an evaluative process? And then do you critique yourself? Are you hard on yourself? Like, God, that was stupid. Or are you more like, oh, okay, note it. Next time I have an opportunity similar to that, then I'm going to adjust it this way. Yeah. Well, there's the internal, of course, I critique myself severely and no one probably could critique me more, but there's the external, like I would have my feelings hurt if somebody said something I was already thinking about myself. So I critique myself heavily, but then I always have to train myself to accept it when other people do, which is kind of interesting because I'm very adverse to it.

And I have a gigantic, I can't even tell you how big, the biggest ego ever. And some people would probably tell you that, but it started getting beat down when I was about 15. Like I told you, I was good at sticking ball sports. I mean, let's face it. I used to call myself the great pro. I'd write it on my notebooks. I mean, it was pretty gnarly. That's pretty gnarly.

Yeah. Like somebody should have smacked me, but no one ever did. But then as life started beating me down a little, I started learning things the hard way and started meeting nicer and more evolved humans. Wow. Okay. I'm starting to get what's going on here and I'm, you know, hopefully I'll learn it someday. I mean, I'm getting there though. I'm making progress. Okay. So I'm struck by something. You're incredibly disciplined in your positive approach to others. Right. Okay. And then internally, you're incredibly hard on yourself. Right. Saying things to yourself that you would never say to another person. Yes. How does that work? That doesn't make sense to me. Yeah.

Um, I don't know how it works. Honestly, I know, I know it's bad to have negative self-talk and I, I try to work on that, but I'm not down on myself at all. Okay. I think I'm, I think I can, uh, I think I have ability to say, well, okay, so if somebody critiques me or our brand in the media, like I'll have people running to my office like, you got it. And I'm like, no, that's funny. That's awesome. I don't care. People say whatever they say and the truth is going to come out, whether it's me critiquing myself or not. It just is what it is. It doesn't matter what I say about it. It doesn't matter what they say about it.

You're kind of judged on actually what happens. So I don't know is what it is. It doesn't matter what I say about it. It doesn't matter what they say about it. You know, you're kind of judged on actually what happens. So I don't know, whatever it is. I don't, I don't have a problem like hating myself or anything like that. You don't. No, I don't get that. I definitely critique every single thing I do. And then I want to get down in the weeds one more level is the critique. Are you actually saying, Bob, you're so stupid? Or are you saying, oh, look at that. I kind of missed that. Is it more tactical? Yeah. I'm saying I missed that. No, I'm not down on myself. I feel like I have a pretty high IQ. I feel like I have a high ability to learn from others. But the simplest things that I need to learn from others, I don't have internally. And even with my IQ, I can't

figure out. So it's a funny scenario. Okay. That makes actually more sense to me. So there was an analysis done by great coaches, like stick and ball coaches and they could be negative, neutral, or positive. Okay. So in their feedback loops. Right. And what we found is that there's more coaches that are neutral, right? More of the greats are neutral. There's a few that are negative, some that are positive and most are neutral in their feedback. Like, Hey, I told you to put your left foot back. Right. You know, like it's a half step back. Right. Hey, you know, a half step back. Like we said it. Okay. Come on. Half step back. Right. That's still neutral. It's not like you stupid son of a, why is it? It's not that. And it's not like, Oh, everything's going to be okay. You know, you're taking this step, but you know,

it's, it's okay. Yeah. It's not, you know, so it's more neutral. Are you more in that neutral category? I believe I'm more in the neutral. Okay. All right. That makes a little bit more sense for me. Yeah. Okay. I want to go back to why you've come to understand life is fragile and you referenced that people have died. Right. And so this is that thing I said about earlier, like chin checking, like, can you chin check this thought is that the reason people change is because of pain. And the reason people grow is because they get uncomfortable often. Right. And so would you agree with that first part of the statement that the reason people change? And if you don't, please don't agree.

I agree 100%. And, you know, I was thinking about this yesterday because I knew we were going to be talking. Like, what has made an impact? A lot of pain has made an impact on me in a good way, honestly. And a lot of great people have made an impact on me in a good way. And in my case, I'd say it could be close to like 60% pain and 40% good. I don't know what the number is, but just an unusual amount that I didn't latch on to. I don't think I'm crazy for it, but I'm crazy anyways.

But I just think it's ironically helpful to life and to understand what's really going on. Like what is this big picture? Who are we? What are we hoping for? What are we trying for? Why do we work so hard? What are trying for? Why do we work so hard? What are we trying to get when we work so hard? All that stuff.

These are all the same questions I have. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So let's do those in order. All right. You can tackle those. Yeah, right.

No, for you. Like, why are you working so hard? Well, I'm not anymore. I've been semi-retired for about two years now. And it's great. The business is in a great state. I got great people running it. And, you know, I'm here every once in a while helping when I can. But why I worked so hard before, people used to always ask me because we sold our company to Nike

in 2002. That was just a deal that we cold called Nike. They weren't looking for anything. It's somewhat of a miracle how it all happened. But anyways, it happened. And people used to always say, wow, man, that's cool. You're going to quit working now. I'm like, why would I quit working? And just the sheer joy of, I mean, you met YB that was helping us in here. There's another 150 people here like that. And just being around the magic and being around them is really what we want and enabling their dream of the future. It's fun to be part of and see it evolve. But people used to ask me, so I tried to come up with one really good answer and I didn't come up with one, but the

simplest reason was when I walk out of my house, if I see a kid in the alley, I kind of want them to high five me. That's really all I'm looking for, honestly. I mean, it's great to have money. It's great to have a house, all but really deep down i found that was my sole motivation actually what does that mean i've never heard anyone describe that and i could make something up but i don't want to is that about maybe i could give you some levers to pull on or do you you already know exactly what it means no go ahead give me some stuff is that i want him to high five me because i want to be a community member i want him to high five me because i want validation that i've done a good job i want him to high five me because I want to be a community member. I want them to high five me because I want validation that I've done a good job. I want them to high five me because somehow this

company that I've been part of and have led has made a difference in kids' lives. Or is it more, so I'm saying, is it more altruistic or more self ego driven? Like I want to be recognized and know that what I've done is special. Yeah, it's definitely a little bit of ego. You know, anyone that has a company with their name on it, I can't say it's not ego or a lead singer in a band. It's ego. I used to shape boards too. That's ego.

I used to pitch a baseball. That's ego. I used to be a quarterback. That's ego. Yeah, ego for sure. But more the first of what you said, honestly, because once you achieve a few things, you can check that off and say, okay.

But it's more the I'm part of the community. It's more that our company helped inspire this person. It's more that their day is better because of whatever our company may or may not have done, whether the product made them feel better or helped them perform better or opened up their mind, you know, made some progress. Just, it's more of that for sure. Okay. And it's nice to have a format to do that. You know, it's nice to have some distribution of a message or a product to be able to do that. Oh my God. Yeah. Because if nobody's listening to you, you know, what do you do a podcast and no one listens? It's all matter much, right? Yeah. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we

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without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Why Hurley? Why the name? Yeah. Did you ever consider like halfway through like, man, I should change that name? Or a couple of years through?

Or has it always been? Personally? Until I met you or knew about you, I should say, which was maybe eight years ago, I didn't know that Hurley was Bob's last name. I didn't know that. But now it's like, yeah. Well, I think so when we, we started this, we knew we were giving Billabong back a tremendous brand and we gave it back in great shape and they went on to magical things, but we wanted to start another brand that was different. And so we didn't want to be another Billabong, Quicksilver at the time, those were the two most powerful, Volcom, you know, name all the

brands. We didn't want to be another one, No offense to them. There's nothing bad about them, but it wasn't totally us and we needed a reason to exist. So we had to find out who we were and what we wanted to make, how much we wanted to sell the products for and what name to call it. And we had a pretty extended list of names. You know, we started from like 500, went down to 200, went down to like 100, went down to 50. And then we started like looking around to register because, you know, don't even start that until you pick one because almost every name is taken. You got to do a workaround kind of. And then we got down to five and Hurley was not on the list. And I worked with a very good designer here for a long time.

Her name was Leanne Murray, still the best designer slash business person in one I've ever seen or worked with in this role. But her husband came to me and said, Bob, he's a really great surfer, Preston Murray. He said, I heard you're going to call the brand. And I won't even say the name because we had four or five pretty good ones. I go, yeah. What do you think? He goes, big mistake. And I said, why is that a big mistake? He goes, well, you make Hurley surfboards already. So you're not scared to put your name on anything. Why don't you call it Hurley? And I go, oh, that's a little ego. I mean, it's not just me.

It's like, it's your wife. It's our other partners. Like it's a whole group of people that are going to want to do this. I don't want it to just be about me. He goes, yeah, but don't think about you for a second. Think about the kid in the store that's trying to sell your stuff. So somebody walks in just off the street and goes, huh, what's this brand? And they go, uh, family. And then the guy has to explain what family is. He goes, don't you think

it sounds more powerful if it says Hurley? And then the guy can go, yeah, that's the guy. You got to start board shaping. And they did Billabong and now he's making his own clothing. And I'm like, yep, that makes a lot of sense. And then when I had a room with all our leaders and I said, great news, we've decided on a name, we, me. It's Hurley. Because we used to vote on the names and nobody could – in the end, everybody used to say, you just have to decide. So it was all on me, 100%. In the end, nobody wanted to make the call. So I made the call.

And then when I did, I thought it was going to feel good. It felt horrible. It did. Nobody wanted it. Oh, no. It's fine. But they were fine with it because they already – I said, you guys. They're like, no, no, if that's what you want, we Nobody wanted it. Oh, no. It was funny. But they were fine with it because I said, you guys. They're like, no, no.

If that's what you want, we'll do it. Cool. Yeah. So you have a sophisticated approach and then you laid the gauntlet down. Like this is how it's going to be. I don't know. No. Okay.

Too heavy. Yeah. Okay. Well, you know what's funny? Like when Coach Carroll, the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks, and myself, when we were building our company, we struggled. Yeah. We hired, you know, folks. We brought people in that were smart.

Like, we struggled with that. Yeah. And so then we finally said, what's the one word you stand for, Mike? What's the one word you stand for, Pete? And so Pete's philosophy is always compete. Compete to be a great dad, a great coach, a great husband. Like, that's his thing, right? Like really competing is not standing over somebody celebrating their misery.

Competing is like, no, no, no, we're part of a community and I'm going to work my ass off to figure out how good I can become. And if we can all do that together, something special will happen. So his words compete. And then my philosophy is every day is an opportunity to create a living masterpiece. And so a la Finding Master mastery, but then create. So we just said, okay, listen, compete to create. And that's the name of our company. I love it.

So that, so the storyline actually. It's an action item too. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I love that. Well, most people, most people are guiding us to say, no, no, no. You need one word. Yeah.

Just one word. Yeah. Something cool. Like Hurley. Yeah. But seldom do they ever sound cool. I mean, think about a lot of the names. I mean, you know, Abercrombie and Fitch.

Like, you know. Yeah. My good friend Stussy. Like, that sounds amazing now because that's good stuff. It is. Yeah. Stussy? Really?

You're going to call a company that? Hurley? Sounds like barf. Classic. Okay. All right. Go back to the pain thing really quickly yeah like so because you had referenced the pain that you've experienced in your life from loss yes and then how do you

actually use that pain to not get caught in suffering yeah but to actually use it for growth yeah well so there's a couple kinds of pain there's a professional pain of not knowing what you're doing at some point which i've experienced at numerous times in my career. And to get rid of that pain and make progress from it, I brought in someone way better than me at that pain of being not very good at my job, whatever that is, whether it's the CFO, the head of sales, or once I went, wow, I'm not as good as I want to be because I want everyone to be magic around me, including myself. So if I'm bad at that, I'm out. Bad at that, I'm out. So that's one way to deal with that type of professional pain.

But the personal pain is, I think it wasn't super hard to deal with, honestly, as people would continue to pass on, unfortunately. But because, you know, I would always seek spiritual strength from above. And I was always surrounded by a lot of people. So whether it's family members or friends that would pass on, I would always know that, you know, we're lucky to have every breath and we should treat everybody nicer. But through a series of that happening, I just kept getting better and better at it. And unfortunately, you don't want to be good at someone passing and saying, oh, that's too bad. OK, so what's next? You know, but unfortunately after that happens a lot of times, then you just, you realize you have to get on with life and be

thankful that you knew the person, be thankful for every good time. And Hey, honestly, don't sit around and feel sorry for yourself because life's short, you know? There you go. Okay. So that's how you've used it. And that's pretty cocky. I know that. That's how I get through. No, I don't see that as cocky at all. I see that as actually being thoughtful, which is like, okay, because some people get caught in suffering. So there's pain and then they get caught in a suffering loop. And pain and suffering don't have to go hand in hand. It seems like we like to suffer as humans. A lot of people I know really like to be grouchy or suffer or, or whatever. You pick the emotion, but they just, we, they like it. They like to latch onto it.

Myself included. It's on some things, but. It's actually part of a storyline. Oh yeah. So yeah. Our, if our, this is my hypothesis that we work in pictures, our mind works in pictures. So thoughts turn it, a series of thoughts turns into pictures and maybe even moving pictures in our mind, right? And when we have an image in our mind, it creates an emotional experience. Like if I can really get an image crisp, I get emotional response from it. And I think most people can do that. And then if I play a storyline of blood and drama and guts and potential failure and this, if I play that story in my head, it's good drama. It's good entertainment.

Right. And I feel something. I might not feel great, but I feel something. Good point. Yeah. So it's part of an easy, like it's like daytime television. Right. You know, like there's a reason that it's so popular.

Right. Those storylines are cheesy. We know exactly where it's going, but we're watching something that we're feeling. Right. How interesting. Yeah. lines are cheesy we know exactly where it's going but we're watching something that we're feeling right oh how interesting yeah it's harder to almost suspend belief yeah suspend is it suspend belief or disbelief how do you say how's that go i don't know magic right that's part of magic is like suspending right oh yeah good point right that's what i love so much yeah it's just what

is just watching this thing potentially unfold and not having the critics that yeah but that'll never happen right you'll never happen. You'll never sell your brand in Nike and have a world influencing. It's easy to say that'll never happen. Yes. And so that's what gets in the way of people getting out of suffering and actually entertaining something that could work. Yeah, it's the same both in life and personally, right? And in business. In business.

Yeah. Okay. Brilliant. Like, thank you. Good job. Oh, Yeah. Okay. Brilliant. Like, thank you. Good job. Oh, geez. Okay. So now we're into kind of the deeper part of you. Do you have always do it, but yeah, that would be my underlying, you know, I'd like someone to smile at me and be nice when I'd see them in the morning. So, you know, I would try to do that too, but sometimes I don't. What are your blind spots? Where do you get in your own way?

I have so many blind spots. I can get a little too optimistic and not pay attention to the practicalities or the pragmatism or I cannot give enough weight to some pessimistic belief of people we're trying to sell to or maybe owned by or work with on a, you know, just in any situation in business, really. Sometimes I underestimate their pessimism or my need to convince them of my optimism. That's for sure a big, big one, but there's lots of them. There's personal stuff where I'm not so as gracious as I could be or understand the gravity of a situation where I, let's see, I would describe myself as flippant for sure. I don't want to be because later that night, as I already told you, I'll rewind and go, Oh, I wish I wouldn't have said that. And I don't want to feel pain that much. So sometimes when bad stuff happens, I kind of make light of it, you know, that kind of thing. You kind of get to drift. I'm not that great of a dude.

Do you say that? But is that, is that like, is that, I mean, obviously it's a joke, but do you, do you, are you that hard on yourself? Like, you know, gosh, I blow it a lot. Yeah. But I don't, but I don't hang on to that. Yeah. I analyze it and I go, yeah, whatever. That's really cool. I got to make some progress.

I'll get there. Yeah. That's really cool. Okay. How would you finish this thought? It all comes down to? Imagination. How do you cultivate imagination? Your imagination? Yeah. How I cultivate my imagination? I'm not a creative person by nature, like people that

design and invent things just out of the blue. But I cultivate my imagination by trying to find out as much as possible about subjects I'm interested in and, dare I say, even ones that I'm not. And that's how I can see an opportunity sometimes or a niche. And that's how I get excited to dream about things or like what if, you know. You know, I got a grandson that I told him I'd take him to outer space on his 20th birthday because he's infatuated with outer space and he's making code and everything. And, you know, just talking to him really gets my imagination going and things I don't know. And yeah, anything, anything really. Imagination. Yeah. That's really, I mean, come on. Walt Disney, come on. Yeah, I know. I mean, yeah. Southern California. Yeah. Walt was from around here. Yeah. Yeah. Walt Disney from around here. Yeah. Yeah.

Walt Disney, that is. Yeah, good. Okay. Did you ever imagine that you'd be retired at your age, make a dent in the surf world? Did you have that imagination? I never thought about retirement ever. And I never thought about, well, I honestly never thought about being over 40 when I was younger. But there's different stages in life. You know, when you're, when I was just a surf shop kid, I dreamt of someday being a surfboard shaper and skateboard maker. Well, we got there and,

and I had somebody helping me always in, in, in each of these stages. Then after that, I, I really dreamt of having my own surfboard label. And I had a partner and a guy that just helped me creatively named Chuck Schmidt. And we would all day, a guy that just helped me creatively named Chuck Schmidt. And we would all day, every day brainstorming this music, that music, this art, that art, that guy's surfboard, this surfboard. And so I dreamt of being a surfboard shaper of some success. And then I got there and Chuck was the guy that helped me. And then I dreamt of like Bill LeBong and having that be successful. And then Gordon helped me. And then all my partners here helped me. It wasn't just me. And then we got there and I was like, wow, we have a company like a hundred times more than I ever imagined, but here it is now. And then starting Hurley, same thing,

and selling to Nike, same thing. And probably the greatest person was the last guy I worked with, Roger Wyatt. He came here in 2008, a global financial crisis. And we just stepped on the gas and did magical things for seven years. It was astounding. And, you know, all the other eras have been great, too. But just that's the last guy that helped me when we were the biggest. And I always need that person. It's always like 10 to 18 percent of me and 88 percent of them or something like that, you know. So relationships are obviously

key huge yeah there's always been a person or a few in the in the eras that have so like i answer your question i could have never dreamt where it is now but knowing every five years yeah it kind of makes sense okay i'm not surprised honestly yeah but the journey has been the most funnest part to be totally cliche do you set financial goals or are they more – I don't want to say process because it sounds cheesy, but are they more like daily vibe goals? We set financial goals for sure. We're pretty strict about that. Okay. So you've got clear targets.

Yeah. But that surprises people too. I'll say something in a meeting like, oh, so that means the inventory turned over 12 times last year. And they're like, whoa, you know that? Yeah. Duh. Yeah. I'll say something in a meeting like, oh, so that means the inventory turned over 12 times last year. And they're like, whoa, you know that? Yeah. Yeah. No, that's actually the business. Well, all the financial metrics are the scorecard, you know? And yeah, we definitely have that. How do you evaluate your talent, your folks that are working here? Or how did you? Well, I personally do it on a daily basis. Honestly, like I think it's, I like to check in with a person that's reporting to me or have them check in with me in the morning and then before they leave at night. And then I think we each kind of know, was it a good day or a bad day? What do we need to work on tomorrow? That's, that's how I operate the best, but you can't do that with a few hundred people or in Nike's case, 70,000 people. So

there's formal processes here for people to do that, like management. It's called coaching for excellence. But I like having about 10 or less direct reports and it's super easy for me to talk on the cell phone, check in every day, how you feeling, how you doing, what do you need, where do you think we need to get to, and then have regular staff meetings to evaluate how we're performing as a team. Cool. For sure. So it's pretty formalized.

It's not like, it's not like showing up to work going, man, surfing's so sick, bro. Like you guys think, uh, I think we'll make any money today. You know, it's a, there's, there's plans in place year, you know, three years out, five years out. What was your relationship when the surf was good and business hours opened at, I don't know, when did you guys start? 8 a.m. or 9 a.m. or something? Not the store hours, but like corporate. Yeah.

Well, me personally, after a while, I found working more interesting than surfing in the middle of a work day because I could always surf after work. And I didn't mind the quality of the wave at all. So I mostly, after the first eight or so years of starting Billabong, I didn't mostly go surfing during the day. If it was with a customer, we were going to go to Trestles or Blacks, of course, or the two special days of the year. But on a regular basis, I just found everything we were doing here just fascinating and fulfilling and magic. And it's sort of one of those things where you don't want to miss anything. That's why I don't like to leave here, you know? Yeah. I relate. I'm surfing less now than I ever served. Really? And maybe you'll start again to surfing more. Well,

I'm not where you are, but I think I'm probably in that phase that you were just describing. Yeah. Like I'm loving building for sure. And it's hard. Right. And I feel like the same frames of reference that I was using to try to get better at surfing or whatever, I'm using now in business. Yeah. Which is like, okay, it's an unstable environment. How do I find stability? How do I map what I can see in my head to what's actually happening right now? And that's like a daily iteration. How do I bring the brightest along and bring the brightest out of them?

So I'm loving. It's fun, right? Yeah, it's hard and it's wonderful. It's hard. You can still jump out there for 20 minutes after work if you really want to. Yeah, for sure. And I live up in the South Bay. It's not quite as good.

The surf's not quite as good up there as it is here. I like what you said about transposing athletics to business because when Tom Curran was the master of the universe in surfing, I always said to myself, okay, Bob, you never got to be that good of a surfer. But wouldn't it be nice if you could try as hard as he does and be that good at business? I think about that all the time. And then when Kelly started dominating and relentlessly never would let a heat go by without trying his hardest. I used to use that for motivation for myself. Every day. I want to be the Kelly Slater of business.

And I'm proud to say he inspired me tremendously. You know, I also get that from music. When I was coming in to talk to you, I wanted to ask you about music because I know how important it is to you. And you've built a studio. We're sitting in your studio right now at Hurley for musicians to come and create. So yeah, that's really cool. Music, like when I think of a modern day potential masterpiece, right? Like a masterpiece for me is something that stands up for the test of time. For sure. Right. And so the ages are the same. Yeah. The ages are kind to that piece of work and not, not that it goes without scrutiny, but it's stood up over generations.

So when I think of potentially a modern day masterpiece, something that inspires me and it hits the charts and a lot of people vibe around it, it might not stand the time forever, but I think, where did they come from? Where did, how did they tap into that good stuff? It's so interesting, right? Yeah. So how do you good stuff? It's so interesting, right? Yeah. So how do you do that? Because I've got this thought about imagination for you. And do you actually train imagery and visualization?

Do you see it and feel it and taste it and touch it? Do you spend time to water images? But before we go there, I want to get, where do you come from when you're most alive, when you're at your very best? Where does that source come from when you're most alive, when you're at your very best? Where does that source come from? When I'm at my very best. Oh, that's a new thought for you, maybe.

Yeah. I never think about being that good at anything. Or I think about being happy for sure. And I'm just blessed with a happy gene where I don't wake up sad. Maybe two days a year I wake up sad. Otherwise, I'm like, whoa, another day. It's awesome. Everyone's not blessed with that. But I think when I'm at my best is when I'm around my family and just fun things are happening, crazy little birthday parties with little kids and people are playing baseball and football and surfing and body

surfing. So if you're going to write a song, you're not writing about the dark side. You're writing about the uplifting positive side. Yes. Yeah. I don't see any benefit in dwelling on darkness. It doesn't freak me out. Like scary music, I kind of like it sometimes, like a scary ride at Disneyland. It's nice before you go out on some big surf.

But no, I think any time I'm spending, I'm wanting to be curious and I'm wanting to be creative and I wanted to be, I want to be enabling and seeking the truth. That's what I want to spend my time on those things, you know? Okay. And then as we're wrapping up here, just a few more questions on like your approach here. If you had the chance, which you've had many of these chances, but to sit across from somebody who's a true master of craft and you had one question to ask them, what would that question be? Wow. That's a good question. I might ask him that one because, wow, I know some absolutely brilliant people and let's see if I can, I'm visualizing them right now. So, so-and-so, I just have one question for you. Who are you imagining right now? First, I wentand-so, I just have one question for you. Who are you imagining right now? First, I went to Roger Wyatt, the guy I've been referring to.

Then I went to Mark Parker. Then I went to Tom Clark. And then I went to Phil Knight. And I'm like, in my mind, I said, I think I know what Phil would tell me. I'm not, I know what Tom would tell me, I think. Let's see, Tom would tell me. Is Tom Clark from Clark Foams? No. He ran Nike for 10 years. Oh, I think. Let's see. Tom would tell me. Is Tom Clark from Clark Foams? No.

He ran Nike for 10 years. I don't know the name. He took it over from $900 million and got it up to $10 billion and then took a year off. And then I made the deal with him after that. Classic. But he's just brilliant. But yeah, I don't know. I would probably.

Let's do Phil. I don't know much about him. I read some of his book, but I don't know much. What would be the one question that you would ask Phil about last year? I would ask Phil probably about his personal feelings, just about how he feels, how his whole story and journey turned out. I'd be the most interested in that. He hasn't been working on a daily basis, so I wouldn't hit him with a specific business thing, but he's a Nike guy still. I mean, he's retired and all that, but yeah, he's an interesting character, man. I mean, his journeys, have you read the book? Yeah. Incredible. And it's funny,

we always say, yeah, everything at Nike is a hundred times bigger than Hurley, every single thing. So you got to get that in perspective when you're talking to people. And even reading the book, I was like, oh yeah, me too. Oh my gosh, we did that. Oh, me too. And then every in my head, but a hundred times smaller, but a hundred times smaller, but it's so similar of a path, you know, just a regular dude just trying to get by. Yeah. So if we flip it and ask you like that same part B, which is how do you look back on your journey? Yeah. Your adventure. I look back on it just as so incredibly blessed. I would hope that everyone I know would get to experience

like a 10th of what I've got to experience. And like, what a lucky fortuitous. I mean, I was here at the turn of the millennium. I was here to import Billabong back in the early days. And I was here when we partnered with Nike and gosh, lived through 2008. I think all business people would love that challenge, even though they wouldn't want it such an exciting time. And, uh, yeah, just to experience and live what I'm living with my family. I would just hope everybody would do that. I feel, I mean, I can't even

express how blessed I feel, honestly. Not even close. Is that how you think about success? Well, as we get older, we start learning more and more things. And a lot of my friends are now retired. And what I'm learning, the more I talk to people and the more I talk to myself and the more I go inward is, yeah, the most valuable thing is every moment you have with your relative, your spouse, your friend. That is the most valuable thing. It's what we really want.

We all want it desperately. And we don't know that sometimes when we're younger because we think we want more money. We think we want a bigger contract. We want a bigger car. We want to win whatever we win. And it's not really what we want. Those are fun things along the way, but we really just want love. It seems like... I'm nodding my head. You did? Oh, yeah. It sounds crazy a little bit. Well, it does sound

a little bit... And I never get in the way of somebody that's like, listen, I want a big house car watch, all these things. I just want to add to it i just want to say yes and right right i'm with you yes i'm not anti-materialistic by any stretch yeah i think the new wealth is changing yeah like old wealth was a big manor and a long green grass you know that was like yeah you know like the sign of guaranteed right yeah more of a european approach yeah and then and then the American thing for a lot of years was house, vacation, home, big car, big watch, presenting success in many ways. And I think the new wealth is changing. And I think what we're going to see is the new demonstration of wealth is the inner vibrancy. When people feel they look young, but not because we're trying to look a certain way with

plastics right not that but like just this inner glow right and this inner vibe that is like wow they figured stuff out they're on it they've got a soul to them like i'm with you yeah i think that's the new wealth it's like because we found this phase for a long time where people were, well, not were, are tired. Right. Because the 24-7 workforce is on and it's real and people are fearful and fatigued. Yes. It's a hard way. A lot of fear, yeah.

Yeah. Does 30% of Americans have some sort of anxiety? Like, please, like that's three out of 10. Right. You know, that's a, whew. And I had, I suffered from it as a young person, you know, so I get what it's like to be unsettled. Yes.

And, but what that means is so when we feel anxious, we work hard oftentimes. Right. And so people are tired. There's a tired, a fatigue. Yeah. And so I think the new wealth is like, no, no, no. I figured out how to settle into the moment. I figured out how to like have the right alignment between my thoughts, words, and actions.

And yeah, that's, that's my new wealth that I'm pursuing. Cause I'm trying to learn more of that stuff. You know what you just said? Yeah. You learn to be more in the moment, you know, I learned to really appreciate, you know, that random meeting that you might think you don't have time for. In fact, that could be it right there. You just got to pay attention, man. And attention is trainable yeah if we don't train it you know the natural state of our mind will find something dangerous right you know that's a survival tactic that we have find what's wrong find what's dangerous oh yeah yeah i know i see me i've switched a lot in my early career i was more like that what's wrong yeah let's pick

apart everything that's wrong you know more like an engineer yeah people taught me along the way just focus on the few things that are amazing and the wrong stuff just falls aside, which I don't know. A lot of people already knew that, but I didn't. Good. All right. So what is the last question really is how do you articulate or think about mastery? So I think there's probably a lot of different kinds of masters. I mean, I can think of a lot I would like to talk to on a lot of subjects. Um, um, and that would just be like incredibly accomplished, like beyond

compare or reputation. And to me, if I'm, I'm on this show, which I think is kind of funny, I don't consider myself a master, but if I was to personalize for me, like, like how I would define mastery is, uh, curiosity, more questions than questions than answers, being in the moment, that kind of stuff. Like other people, you know, I guess I'm going back to my hippie days. I don't know. But just at this point in my life, I'm like, you know what? What's really important? If you would ask me 10 years ago, mastery would be like price, quality, delivery, gross margin. Not really, but a lot of it in the middle of the business.

Revenue, results, and brand. That was all complicated. But as one evolves, the other stuff is becoming as important as it probably should have been in the first place. So you work with really young, amazing folks that you help fund their passion dream as a professional, right? Like professional surfers and skaters. Yeah. What do you hope they get right? And this is me asking this, like, if you could, this is almost a gross term and I don't have a better term for it, but if you could, if you could install a thought, you know, no, no thoughts are not really installed in people,

right? We're not that mechanical, but like if you could, what would you hope they get right as a thinking pattern that could maybe turn into a belief system? Yeah. I think they would, I would hope, and I can think of a few in particular, they're just incredible humans. I would hope they would continue to crystallize their amazingness as human beings more and more and more instead of have it dissipate. Because, you know, as contracts come, as fame comes, as interviews come, as relationships come and go, you know, people can lose a bit of themselves. And I think the people we love working with, it's, yeah, their athletic skill is high, but that's not why we love working with them. It's because of who they are, you know, and I just hope they would never lose that or I would encourage them to just really keep focusing on who they are and why they're doing what they're doing and ending up doing what they want to do instead of like wasting five or ten years doing something they don't want to do.

What if one of your athletes said, listen, you pay me to be on the WSL, World Surf League, and I'm top 10. Yeah. Okay. So we're hitting all the marks, top whatever. Yeah. And I want to take two years off and I want to explore and I want to do a different type of thing. Yeah. And I want to leave that.

Do you want to still fund them or would you say, okay, well, our revenue back in return is for awareness and shine from being the best. And if you're going to go and surf the world and, you know, find some – create some feature films or whatever, like that's not what we want to do. Or would you say, yeah, let's support it. Well, you know, obviously it depends on every person. Sure. And obviously I'm not in charge of those decisions anymore. Okay, fair, fair. My counsel would be, if anyone were to ask that, well, fair. man. So please make sure you do what you want to do. Don't feel like you have to do this because of us. I think it's the worst reason to do something, you know, just because we're going

to clip you or we're going to be mad or, you know, we really, we try to work with people to not fulfill the company's dreams to fulfill their dreams. You know what I mean? And that's, we figure if we collect enough people like-minded that are fulfilling their own dreams, we're just going to be surrounded by magic. Therefore our company will be magic. It's a little bit different than trying to make the company magic. It's kind of subtle, you know? I love it. Bob, thank you.

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, really. Like, I've been looking forward to this for a long time to have this conversation with you. And congratulations on everything you've done for the surf industry.

And congratulations on following your dream and loving deeply and having, you know, an amazing journey along the way. Thanks, Michael. And congrats to you too. You got a pretty good thing going on. Thanks for having me.

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