Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Bobbi Brown, Beauty Industry Titan

Episode Date: December 5, 2018

This week’s conversation is with Bobbi Brown, a beauty industry titan, world-renowned makeup artist, best-selling author and serial entrepreneur.As a professional makeup artist, Bobbi created 10 simple lipsticks that evolved into a global beauty empire.At a time when stark contours and shiny red lips were in fashion, Bobbi designed cosmetics to highlight a woman’s natural look, and introduced Bobbi Brown Essentials in 1991.This line of color cosmetics revolutionized the industry.In 1995, Bobbi Brown Cosmetics was acquired by The Estée Lauder Companies, where Bobbi served as Chief Creative Officer, building a billion-dollar brand.Unwilling to rest on her laurels, Bobbi has returned to her roots as an entrepreneur.Her latest endeavor is EVOLUTION_18, a line of lifestyle-inspired wellness products that launched in the Spring of 2018.What’s been the key to her success?Bobbi just goes for it. She has an optimistic framework and isn’t worried about things not working out.You don’t need to have the slightest bit of interest in makeup to enjoy this conversation – Bobbi is as real as it gets and I hope her authenticity rubs off on you._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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So she really helped me feeling good about who I was and not comparing myself. All right, welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais, and by trade and training, a sport and performance psychologist, as well as a co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery. And we want to better understand what they're searching for, what they crave, what they're designing their life towards. And we also want to dig to understand the mental skills that they've used to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true.

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hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. All right. This week's conversation is with Bobbi Brown, a beauty industry titan. And she is flat out renowned for what she's done in the industry. And originally she was a makeup artist. She's also a bestselling author and obviously a serial entrepreneur. And as a professional makeup artist, that's where her roots started. She created 10 simple lipsticks that evolved into a global beauty empire. And I'm stoked to be able to sit, not really. But as we learned from her is that there was a time when that was the signature and then she had a different idea and she wanted to highlight a woman's natural look. And that's what basically introduced Bobbi Brown's essentials in 1991. So disruptive in nature in the way that she saw how the industry was going, how women were represented, and then her idea of what beauty is and how to accentuate and enhance that. So I love this conversation because that's the orientation that she came from. Authenticity,

creativity, having a business sense about her and a vision of what could become. And her philosophy really guided her life as well as her business efforts. And it's really straightforward. Women want to look and feel like themselves, only prettier and more confident is how she describes it. So some of the timeline stuff here is in 1995, Bobbi Brown Cosmetics was acquired by Estee Lauder Companies, just a handful of years in business and a big company come to partner with. I mean, that's unbelievable. And she served as the chief creative officer building that billion dollar business. Unwilling to rest on that, she's returned to her roots now as an entrepreneur.

And her latest endeavor is Evolution 18, a line of lifestyle inspired wellness products that launched in 2018. And you can find all this on justbobby.com. And it's her platform for all things Bobby and to share her lifestyle and her inspirations with, you know, the rest of us. So that's pretty much kind of what she's been up to. And then in this conversation, we dig into her keys or her principles that led to success and flat out, she's just gone for it. Like she's got an idea and she just goes for it. And you'll see and hear and feel the optimistic framework. And she isn't worried about things not working out. That's not how she entertains and thinks. So if you don't have the

slightest interest in makeup and you're thinking about maybe turning this one off, mistake, full on mistake. I think you'll really enjoy this conversation about entrepreneurship, authenticity, becoming one's very best and helping others do the exact same. And so with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with Bobby Brown. Bobby, how are you? I'm good. How are you? Thank you for welcoming us into your studio.

Sure. Yeah. It's a really cool place. And so you've been here for a long time. I've been in this town where I live, Montclair, New Jersey, which is 12 miles west of Manhattan, even though it could take an hour and a half to get in, but sometimes it takes 20 minutes. And I've been here for 30 years, the day I got home from my honeymoon. So why New Jersey? Why the Northeast? Well, I'm originally from Chicago, grew up in the suburbs,

left Chicago to go to University of Arizona, followed a boyfriend, then went with another boyfriend to Emerson College and studied makeup there. So I was in Boston, and New York was really the place to go. I lived in New York for many years. And then New York City, um, were you, you're down in one of the boroughs, I would imagine. New York City. Um, no, I was in Soho, which is, yeah, that was not a borough. That's the city. It's just a neighborhood in the city. Boroughs are the suburbs and that's, you know, that's where I am now. But I was in Soho and,

um, then I lived midtown for a while, but I moved to New York to be a freelance makeup artist. Okay. So this is like, this is the center of the questions that I have for you is how did you go from an artist to an entrepreneur? And I think before we get there, there's a lot that I want to understand about you. And before we answer that question, what were some of the main chapter headings in your life before you found yourself in New York City, before you were kind of in stride, if you will, as an artist? Well, I mean, to know me and especially to look back, it's like, it's just, it's like a quagmire how I got here today. I have no idea. I mean, I never thought my parents never thought my teachers never thought I would really

be successful at anything. You know, my parents knew I would be a great mom and the most they would ever think that I would be is, is, you know, a teacher, which would have been, you know, one of my dreams, by the way, when I was a kid. But my mother let me drop out of typing because she said, oh, you'll never be a secretary. So I've written nine books and I still don't know how to type. Okay. So I've somehow managed to figure it out, but I've always been a creative person and I really attribute everything I do in business and everything I know about the business world from Papa Sam, Papa Sam, Papa Sam. I did not learn, you know, in college, anything about business, but I learned from Papa Sam who came to this country from Russia, started selling newspapers on the street, eventually handbags. And by the time he died

in his eighties, he was Cadillac Sam of Chicago. He had car dealerships and we would sit around his table at night, me and the cousins stuffing his envelopes of his marketing material. And I would go with him to work sometimes. And I just saw the way he would go up to anyone and can I help you? You know, Hey doc, what's going on? What's happening? And I, he was a really good role model for me. How old were you at this time? I was probably, you know, my memories are age seven to 18, seven to 18. And his relationship with your parents? He's my mom's, He was my mom's dad. Nan and Papa were really close to me. They were the place I would feel the most comfortable. And

I just love sleeping over. They kind of loved me to pieces and let me do everything. How did they share that message with you? Cause I don't, it doesn't seem to me that you lack esteem, that you feel pretty good about yourself. Um, well, self-esteem issues, first of all, everyone has them. You know, I, I preach confidence. I teach women to feel good with who they are, you know, men too. And so when it comes to, you know, the things that women are insecure about, I'm right up there with them. I understand it all. You know, I never thought I was attractive. I never thought I was cute enough. All my friends were cheerleaders. They were able to do, you know, back flips and they were long legs and I was five feet tall and not exactly, you know, the skinniest one in the

room. And I just had self-esteem issues. And I would look at my best girlfriend, Lynn, and I would think she was like, Oh my God, I couldn't look anything like Lynn. And she was just so amazing. And I was so not. And now I look back at pictures and Lynn, if you're listening, I'm really sorry. I was, we were as cute. I think I was even cuter than she was and all that time and wasted because I wasn't like someone that I'm not. And the big thing that really changed my life and oh my God, I'm so happy I have finally have a shrink is when my mother who I adored, like I worship the ground, she walked in, she came into my room one day and she said, I have to talk to you.

She closed the door. So I thought, oh, what are you getting divorced? She was on her second marriage. And how old were you at this? I was a freshman in college. I was just home. And she said, I think you're really pretty. And I said, thanks, mom. She said, but you'd be gorgeous if you had your nose fixed. And I'll never forget. I sat there and I looked at her and she said, when you're older, you'll probably have to get your eyes done like me. It changed my life. My, my initial response was, huh? And I remember pull, I pulled myself back from that moment. And I realized then and there that it wasn't about what my mom, you know, thought she wanted me to be. I felt fine with myself. I, I, my, I never once said, mom,

I didn't like my nose and the thought of like cutting my face to change the shape of my eyes, and I think that really helped me on this journey of being who you are. And so what does a girl who's this insecure thing do? She goes to New York and becomes a makeup artist for supermodels, which was a whole other thing. But what really changed my life was in seventh grade or eighth grade, I went to the movies and love story was on the screen and Allie McGraw had was a, just came out as, as an actress and she had long, dark hair part in the middle, big bushy eyebrows, no makeup on.

And I'm like, ah, I could be pretty too. So she really helped me feeling good about who I was and not comparing myself. Okay, so you had at least two that you're talking about now, moments where you weren't sucked into the need to defend yourself. You weren't sucked into, oh my gosh, I should listen to these or to my mom. Shocking, because I should have been that person. I don't know why I wasn't, but it was just like I thought she was just bizarre. And I thought it was, and I didn't get mad at her. I didn't have that much emotion except really, I don't know why. Cause that's not, I mean, usually I'm much more emotional. Is that your signature? Are you like highly engaged in from an emotional standpoint? Well, if there's something on my head, it's on

my tongue faster than I could say to myself, don't say that. So, um, I am a very authentic, honest person. Extroverted. Meaning you think out loud, gather energy from others. Yeah. I think I'm, there's no question. I'm extroverted. Okay. Yeah. And then that's helped you and hurt you in business. Um, probably the only place that ever hurt me was in corporate America. Every other place it's helped me tenfold. Yeah, I see you on a mood board you've got. It says, if I spoke my mind, I'd be in deep shit. Yeah, oh yeah. And I could never have posted that

when I was part of a big corporation. You couldn't? Oh God, no. I used to get calls to take things off my Instagram all the time. My personal Instagram. Yeah, all the time. Okay, so you, okay. So this is where

and I have, and I have a really funny sense of humor when you know me, especially after tequila or two. I, you know, I'm sorry. I'm a boy's mom. Like I'm, I have a funny sense of humor. Yeah. Okay. So there you go. So as we're getting a little bit of your signature in here, it's like you're a risk taker. You say things, you feel things. And at least two moments in time, you haven't been sucked into it, but you have the ability to have perspective, at least in the two moments that you shared. Yes. And I'm not someone that likes to cause disruption.

I'm not someone that looks to be a rebel. That's crazy. I don't mean to, but I just do what I believe in. And it's, it's often against what's popular at the time from, you know, look, unnatural makeup. Like why would anyone want to wear unnatural makeup? I don't understand. That is okay. Where'd that come from? I don't know. Not for my mom. Cause my mother, you know, was this glamour puss and I wasn't. And that means that she liked, she was... Glitter. Oh, yeah, coiffed and glittered.

And, oh, yeah, she was, you know, stunning. I used to stare at her because in disbelief, with her high heels and her skinny little pants and her puffed up hair in the 60s and eyelashes. And it just wasn't who I was. And I tried it on and it didn't work for me. How do you describe who you are? How I describe who I am is a wife and a mother, a friend.

Did you pick that order on purpose, wife first, then mother? Often I do mother and wife, but it's kind of together. I mean, my family is everything to me. So my friends are everything for me. So, um, my friends are everything for me. And I'm also an entrepreneur. I mean, I love making things up. I love doing things. I have no idea what I'm doing. I love a challenge. I love fun and you know, I'm not perfect. There's things I really have to work on. Okay. So there's humility in there for sure. But how do you go from not knowing if you can be successful? Like I want to, I want to get back to that artist

to entrepreneur piece, but there's a thin slice here. That's important when you don't know if it's going to work out. You say you love building, you love challenges, right? You love fun, but when you don't know, and you've got your chips on the line, how do you manage your internal world? I have this really weird quality and I can't teach anyone to do it. I don't know how I got it. I am so naive. I never think something's not going to work out. And if it doesn't work out, I just change things up and it's an opportunity to do something different. And so what? So I've like, I asked Elvis Duran, the radio guy, if I could be the

beauty and lifestyle expert of the show. He said, okay. I asked Jeff Zucker if I could be the beauty editor of the today show years ago. He said, okay. And I read somewhere that you were, I think you were at an event and you asked someone from Bergdorf. I was at a party early on. I was at a party and I, New York City, Upper East Side, very fancy. And I was again, living in New Jersey, not fancy. And I went to this woman, I said, thanks for inviting me. And I said, what do you do? She said, I'm the cosmetics buyer of Bergdorf Goodman. I said, oh, I have a line of lipsticks. I'm a freelance makeup artist and I make these lipsticks. She said, oh, you should come in and pitch us. And I said, Okay. And I pitched her and she said, Okay. And then she called me and said, I'm really sorry, but we have too

many things. We can't take it. And my heart dropped. It was on my answering machine at the time. And I was working with Saks Fifth Avenue doing a catalog. And they all the art directors were asked me what I was doing. And I told him about this line I'm doing with Bergdorf. They said, No, you've got to do it with us. I said, no, I'm with Bergdorf, but don't ask me how I knew to do this. I called off Bergdorf back and I called Alison. I said, no problem. I got your message. I just want to let you know that Saks wants it. And she said, I'll call you right back. And then she said, we'll take it. How did I know that? Papa Sam, that's the only way. So that was the influence from early days. Yeah, I think so. And that's why, like, I think you could give me

15 different really radical insights. And then, but if I don't know where they come from, it feels like I don't really understand the insight. So now that you've just linked the insight that you did, what we would call vapor marketing, right? Where you, you're using part of a story for another story to, you know, to leverage, uh, in the right ways. And see, I'm not that smart that I know what vapor marketing is or I've ever heard of it, but I understand just simple nuances. Right. But you learned it from being around, it sounds like a super influential, crafty, extroverted, gregarious, good man. That's a businessman as well. Right And, you know, and other things, you know, and other things. I mean, I think I just, you know, it took many years to kind of understand that my way is not, you know,

anything different than just my way. You know, you're not always so, you know, self-assured that it's okay to be who I am. Where did that begin to firm for you? Well, I think there was little things. I mean, certainly when Estee Lauder first bought me and Leonard Lauder thought I was just the greatest thing he's ever met, that gave me confidence. You know, certainly my husband has always been this incredible supporter to me. And then, you know, role models along the way, this guy, Mickey Drexler, the CEO of J.Crew, became my dear friend and my mentor.

And now I'm his mentor, which is really a cool turnaround. And he just gave me this permission. And he gave this quote to the New York Times. He said, Bobby Brown is the worst corporate citizen I've ever met. And I say that with full on love and admiration. And I realized I shouldn't feel bad because I wasn't a good corporate citizen. I should feel good about who I was. More entrepreneur. Is that what that means? More entrepreneur. So you'd say what you wanted you more like a, more like a, I don't know, like a nimble ship than a battleship. Well, you know, I, I certainly wasn't rude when I told people I didn't like something or I didn't want to do a category

just because it's big in Asia. I didn't believe in skin lightening. I still, I didn't believe it. And they were upset. It was a lotion. It was a whitening. It was a big trend and people were buying whitening products and it was just in Asia to lighten the skin. I said, I don't want to lighten the skin. I choose foundation that matches the skin. Why would I want to lighten it? Was that new or was that something that was happening that you liked? It was something that was, no, no. It was just what I believed in. I mean, I kind of discovered yellow tone foundation, not because I'm brilliant, because it's the one color that will disappear when you put it on. And if you understand the reason you wear foundation is to even out your skin, when you put it on, you want it to blend in and disappear. So you don't even

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and they're just emerging as you're speaking. And the one is like, where do your ideas come from? And where don't they come from? That's odd thing i mean i am you know the one thing that i'm dealing with now personally is trying to figure out i don't meditate and i just my mind just keeps going like you know i remember every little thing anything i say to someone i'll send you that i'll follow up i remember it oh my god my husband wrote down he needed grapefruit juice i remember that you know i promised someone else i just I don't let go of things until they're done. And then I keep coming up with new ideas. Wow, wouldn't that be cool if?

Wouldn't that be interesting if? So that's a very different framework than what if it goes wrong? What if it goes wrong? Wouldn't it be cool if? So it sounds like you're an optimist. I am a total optimist. The fundamental belief that it's going to work out.

Beyond. And if it doesn't work out, okay. And if you don't try it, you'll never know. Okay. That sounds easy, but there's times when we try things, we get burned. It doesn't work out. Right. So then what is your strategy there? Okay. If it doesn't work out, right. You brush yourself off, you take a minute, whatever you need. Everyone has different times to recover and then you do something else. Okay. How about when the stakes are high and you've chipped in, you've leveraged your home. Maybe you don't go big leverage like that. I don't know. I don't believe in that. No, I don't believe in it. So we invested the last $5,000 of our money to start Bobby Brown cosmetics

with another, with another family, but we knew we could pay our mortgage. All right. So I have a lot of Chicago common sense. So I never borrowed money from anyone. Um, I don't believe in it. I don't believe in going over my head. I got burnt when I was a kid with my first credit card where I had a $500 limit or a $250 limit. And all of a sudden I owed like thousands of dollars because I didn't pay, what is that called every month? The interest. And I was like, this makes no sense. I'm not doing this again. So I got a debit card, you know? So I'm like, that is dumb. Let me do it a different way. And you've built your business model on that. A hundred percent. Start small, chip away,

chip away, chip away, reinvest. Yes. What's the rush? Well, I, you know, that's a good question because it seems like modern business for, I don't know, millennials and tech and like it's happening fast, like four years, billion dollar companies, you know, like there's something happening really, there's technologies on a scale for radical pace and you're now moving into the new generation of entrepreneurship right I don't know if that's such a thing or not but like you're building a new brand now is that correct yes completely and what excites me about doing it is I get to do it in the new way not I'm not going to be in department stores I'm not going to do

things that we did back then. There's new ways to do things. So I'm excited about that. Leveraging the internet. Leveraging the internet. I mean, it's no different. So I grew Bobby Brown Cosmetics from magazines, editorial stories, my expert advice. I'd go speak at women's groups. I, you know, we did whatever we sampled, gave everyone a little bit and they'd run to the store and buy it. I would do personal appearances. I'd be on people's, I was on TV constantly. Now I'm on podcasts. I mean, it's a new thing now. I'm, you know, so, and now I've got my own digital platform. So things are changing and, you know, I'm just glad that I am around to be part of it because it's really interesting.

It is. Do you surround yourself with people that understand new business? Or do you feel like you've got your arms around it just because you've been at the highest level of entrepreneurship into a large corporation? Oh, I surround myself with people that get it and people that don't know what they don't know but want to learn. So no, I could never do it myself. I am not an island. I need my team around me. And that was the hardest things walking out of Bobby Brown Cosmetics was the team I built over 20 something years, I was teamless. So I needed someone to help me with the little things. So you know what I did? This is so Bobby. I went to the Apple store and I hired the amazing girl that took care of me. That's Michelle sitting

there. Yeah. So she's been with me two years. She's my personal assistant. She's office manager. She does all the digital. She, you know, yeah, she's doing way too many things. You're being too hard on her. You already knew her at that point. No, I met her that day. That day. And I went and I asked her for her number. She spent three hours with me trying to redo this phone situation I had, you know, leaving the brand. You know, I wanted my number, but I wanted whatever. It was a whole thing. Three hours. Calm.

And I said, do you want me to come back? No, you're fine. She was on the phone with AT&T for over an hour. You know, mostly they hang up and give you the number, say, go home and do it. She did it. And while she was working with me really calmly, every single guy would come over and say, Michelle, there's a woman, she's got a problem, blah, blah, blah. And Michelle would take the phone off her, off of her ear and say, tell him she should go into this and do this. Now, six, seven times that happened. And I was like, okay, Michelle.

And so I hired her. You could see that she could manage her internal world and also deliver. Right. Yeah. So both those. Okay, cool. So you've got something special about transitions. Like you've transitioned well from artists. Let's go back to that original question from artists to entrepreneur.

To business woman. Yeah. Right. And then how old are your children your boys my kids are 28 26 and 20 and 20 so they're about out of the house oh no they're out of the house the youngest one is in right now he's a junior in college and one another one is a strength and conditioning coach works with athletes has his own business with his girlfriend who is a physical therapist. And, um, they're, they're pretty amazing.

And then my oldest son, um, is brilliant. And he right now temporarily is living with me with his girlfriend and his dog because he's in between places to live. It's awesome. Well, that's why I asked almost because I think that there's a re-nesting that's taking place for a lot of that generation. Yeah. But I also have a 70 something year old woman right now, neighbor who's living with me, who's an amazing cook because her carriage house is being renovated. So I have her right now. I, you know, I, I was, I always had foreign exchange students. My nephews lived with me. Oh yeah. You had them when you were younger or when your kids were young? When my kids were younger, when, you know, my baby was

born when his brother and sister were six and eight. His brother, sister, I have no daughters. When the two, sorry, Cody, I didn't mean to call you a girl. Um, so when the two boys were six and eight, I had Duke. And then when Dylan went to college and I had Duke home I got a couple foreign exchange students because you know that I didn't want to want an only kid for six months at a time a year like a school year yeah I had five different ones all together four four boys and one girl oh my goodness yeah okay all right so let's do transitions How did you do that first transition from artist to entrepreneur? Well, I was still a working makeup artist and I would, you know, go into the office, a small teeny little office with, um, my partner and I would, it was, I'm not going to say it was

rough. It was sure it was rough at the time. I also had kids at home. I also was commuting. So I just did it. How? I don't know. You get up in the morning and you throw junk in a bag and you go out the door and you go, you do it. Okay. So, I mean, I, it's not like that's a hard question, hard answer. Cause that is the, that's what I've heard over and over. And that's how I feel like I run my life too. You just do it. But for me, there's this, I want to call it a cost. There's a consequence to it for me, which is the amount of time I'm away from home and it's hard, right? So there's this inner battle that I have about, um, the ideal way of parenting and which involves time spent and then the ideal way of building businesses, which is,

you know, going to the frontier and then returning back. And so there's, there's this yin and yang, there's a pull in both directions. So I don't know if you felt that at all. Like, well, I, I constantly did. And I constantly felt guilty that I wasn't enough in the office and that I wasn't at home for my kids, but I would like figure out certain skills to help me cope. So the first day of school, I would go into the principal's office and I would say, okay, I need the dates. I need to know the sing-along, the teacher's conferences. I need all, I need to know, you know, when these things are happening. And I would go to the teachers and say, when are the field trips? And I'd like to sign up to be the class mom. So I was either the class mom of one of the kids

every year. You know, it was the only bad year was when there was four class moms. That was rough because, you know, I was my third kid and I think it was the last time being a class mom. I'm like, all right, you guys take over. Whatever. I'm good. So I, you know, I made choices and I don't know why, but I was, the kids would come with me, personal appearances, my husband would, you know, fly with them. He was always incredibly supportive and some days I'd be away and it'd be tough. You know, I'd be nursing in a hotel room and, you know, in Dallas and, um, you know, I, but I, and I'd come home early. I was supposed to go to London for something. And my, one of my kids came down with chicken pox. I'm like, I can't leave them, but I had a full-on schedule,

so I ended up spending an extra day with the child, flew to London, and went right to work. It was exhausting, but I did it. What did you do to recover, to keep your wits about yourself, to keep your vibrance right? I mean, it's probably why I got into health and wellness, because I knew the difference if I abused myself. And for me, abusing myself was just, you know, drinking too much or eating too much food or the wrong kind of foods. And I am someone that loves a cocktail, but I know the difference of having one or having three. So for, you know, for me, I had to make sure I drank enough water. I had to make sure during the day I've been sipping on peppermint herbal tea because that kind of helps keep you going. And by the way, I'll go home tonight and

I'll crash because today was, and yesterday were two days where it was one thing on top of another and there was no processing time in between meetings and appointments. And so it's not physically draining, but it's really mentally draining. Yeah, the space between the spaces is something that I think is really important. The space between notes, the space between words, the space between meetings is a little larger. And that takes a while to learn, by the way, that it exists. Yeah, and where do a while to learn by the way that it exists. Yeah. And where do you find the spaces between it now? Now I'm speaking to you as an entrepreneur is that I would, I,

it's not a stretch to say, okay, you cracked it. You figured it out. Like you went from an idea to a massive business that disrupted the industry, just a billion dollar brand. And I got D's in math. So math teachers, wherever you are. Do you know? So I keep my high school credit, uh, not credit card, um, report card. So there's this thing called the DSM diagnostic statistical manual for all diagnoses for psychology. And in high school I took psychology. I got an F and I keep that report card in the DSM as a reminder. Like, like I didn't get it. I didn't want to get it. It wasn't taught in a way that I wanted to understand it. But so there's hope.

Well, you know, we all learn differently. I'm a, I'm a visual learner. I'm someone that learns by doing. You could tell me how to do something. I won't figure it out unless I do it. You know, my oldest son graduated from Stanford. He's ridiculously brilliant. He doesn't understand why I can't do this. And he's like, here, mom, look. And then he walks away. I'm like, Dylan, talk me through it while I'm doing it, and then I'll figure it out. So, you know, you should have seen me watching Apple TV last night.

I mean, I don't, I don't, I was bad. I was by myself. I think I read somewhere when I was prepping to talk to you that you didn't do business plans. I still don't do business plans. Right. And I don't know what you're supposed to put on a business plan, work harder, make more money, come up with new ideas, put some money in the bank, take everyone out to dinner and say, thank you. And so did you how did you perfect vision how did you design year to year or month to month what you're gonna do well i don't well first of all we had business partners my husband i started the cosmetics company together i made the lipsticks sold them

out of my house while i was still a working makeup artist know, and it's way before we got into Bergdorf. So two years before I launched in the department stores, I was an at home stuffing the, you know, the lipstick in a manila container and my husband would mail it and that's it. I relate to that. Yeah. Flat out. And there's something really special about figuring out that moxie and that kind of grit about building, you know, each part of the, your, I don't know, inner workings, right? Okay.

Now let's go back to that step, stepwise approach that you've had, where all of a sudden you go into like real business and you're at the helm. You don't know what a business plan looks like. You, but you do have true north. Well, I have my husband, who's brilliant, and when we started the business, he was a real estate developer. The market crashed. He went to law school because he came home to me.

We had one kid, and he said, I have to get a job. And I looked at him. I said, that's the stupidest thing I ever heard. I couldn't imagine him. I'm very visual. I could not imagine him getting up in the morning, putting on a suit, carrying us a briefcase and walking to the train. So in that moment, did you get a flash? Is that how your mind?

No, I didn't have a flash. I just said it. I just said when you said you were visual, does that? I mean, I visualized him walking. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I did. Yeah. I just had this vision of him doing it. I'm like, that makes no sense when you have that vision. And I don't know if you can actually remember that, but in general, do you see it in color? I do. I see everything in color. Do you see it from your lens or are you watching from above? No, I see it from my lens from your, like from your eyes. Yeah. Yeah. And then can you feel it? Yeah, of course. Of course. That's not, that's a skill. So it sounds like it's a natural gift because some people can't,

they can't see it. They can't smell it. They can't taste it. Not everyone's supposed to be an entrepreneur in this world. I got to tell you, everybody wants to be one, but you're not, everyone is made out for it. What's it take? You know, some people don't like the stress of it. Some people, you know, young people come to me and say, I really have to talk to you. I say, okay, I wanted my own business. I say, okay. And that's the end of the conversation. Okay.

You have an idea? No. Okay, great. Oh no, you don't know how many people, you know, and right now if I hear one more person that wants to start a granola company, guys, it's too late. There's nothing new. Granola. What do you mean granola? Like the actual granola? Yeah. People are now, you know, stay at home moms and I think it's too late there's nothing new granola what do you mean granola

everyone yeah people are now you know stay-at-home moms and i think it's awesome like they want to jam granola it's it's been done you know unless there's something different you've got to have a point of difference what is different about your granola that anyone else's what is different about your lipstick than anyone else's finding master Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that.

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It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. What are you craving? What am I craving? What does Bobby at the center of Bobby crave? Right now, I'd like a little more structure. I would like a little more structure, but we're building this company.

And right now, I'm smart enough to know, and I've done this before by spring, I'll be in a completely different place. There's a couple of things launching that aren't announced yet. We haven't gotten, you know, so it's not like the money's pouring in and, um, you know, I'm pretty self-funded, so I don't like wasting money. And I've got, you know, a tight little team there and we could use a business strategist, which we think we might've found today. And just, you know, to kind of top up, look down because these guys are doing too much. There's no way they could look. I mean, I'm going to do a speech in Bermuda and I can't even get on a plane now because no one booked the ticket.

It's been on my calendar for six months and I was aggravated. I'm whispering because I can't even get on a plane now because no one booked the ticket. It's been on my calendar for six months. And I was aggravated. I'm whispering because I don't want them to hear me. I was aggravated. But then I'm like, you know what? I could have said something too. I could have focused on it. Okay. So structures.

You're looking for some structure. A little more structure. You know, especially someone experienced that sees from top down what the opportunities are and what we're doing and what could be helped and who we could bring in. More of an operational person? Operational, but strategic, operational. Yeah. Yeah. But in a newer way, like not someone that's graduating with a degree from a big school. I don't want that. You're looking for more bootstrap savvy, somebody that has, have they been in the corporate world or they've been in the entrepreneur space? It would be awesome to do everything to be, you know, a little bit of everything.

And the guy we talked to besides being a yoga instructor in his spare time has done so many different things. Okay. And he was so calm. You are more of a visionary. I'm a visionary, but I'm also very strategic and understand how to connect things. I mean, I understand the marketing and branding. I understand all of it. I just can't do everything. Do you? Yeah, for sure. So let me ask a few questions about your attentional strengths. Are you, when you walk

into a room, are you more street savvy or more analytical? Oh, I'm totally street savvy. And I'm in, I mean, I don't know what the difference I'm. Okay. So I'll explain that like analytical would be, okay, this is happening. This is happening. This is happening. And if this happens and that happens, and then if those two things happen together, then it's likely that, you know, I'm both and I'm absolutely both. I am completely both. And if it changes, I am so emotionally intelligently ready to make a, you know, a change. If you had to say my strength is, and I'll do the street savvy piece, which is high emotional intelligence. Okay. Those are different. These are like, what do you focus on? Like attentionally. So emotionally I get that you, so the, the street savvy, I get

why you would say emotional intelligence because it's like, you understand people. Yeah. You can put yourself in their shoes. You can even relay back to them what they might be feeling. You can use that for good. And right. I mean, look, I know if I'm talking to a group and they're bored, I know if I'm talking to a group and they think it's funny, you know, and I'm, and I'm able to change that. Okay. So if we pivot from the attentional stuff to your, would you say that's your, one of your signature strengths? I think so. Emotional intelligence. I think so. Is it empathy, compassion and or straight intelligence? I think it's empathy. So you have the ability to feel what others feel and convey to them the way it feels?

Without a, I'm not a crunchy granola, you know, Hallmark. I hate, I hate cards, by the way, like Hallmark cards. Yeah. Yeah. I love that music. Are we in heaven? Yeah. What was that?

So it's funny. My wife says the same thing same thing like do not get me a card right like do like why yeah yeah first of all I save all my husband's like the little cards that he's written just and it doesn't happen often he's not mushy but when it does it's so nice and so special and you know I'm gonna frame one of them I found you know that's cool okay Okay. All right. So emotional intelligence. So you get people. You get the, do you, one to ten, compassion. Like feeling for others.

Ten. Because I really get, yeah, I get that for you. Yeah, ten. That you really do care. I do. Okay. And then you've got a self-deprecating way about yourself to kind of take the edge off of things. But I think that you like.

I don't like people that are pompous i could you know i could there's not a hubris no i know i could pull up my pompous card if i have to like i've been around you can play that are you kidding you know what it looks like i i oh yeah i'm i grew up in the fashion industry i mean the stuff that i've seen and you know and it's it's so many people have shown me who i don't want to be in life. Cause there's, you know, there's a lot of assholes out there. And what does that come from? Where does that way of interfacing with other people that is so unbecoming?

Where do you, I think it's insecurity. I think it's totally people's insecurity. I think a lot of pompous behavior is just people being insecure. And how did you not do that? Now I'm going back to what, when your mom said, okay, you should change your nose. And, and by, but by the way, when there was people that worked for me that I thought, you know, I didn't think they were good at what they did. You know, I was ready to say you're fired, but you can't when you're in corporate America.

It's harder. No, it's almost impossible. It's, you know, it's, it's, you know, HR, it's a whole thing. But so I'm not saying that every, I get along with every person. I don't. And I used to always say this and I got in big trouble. You either get it or you don't. So that's true. You either get it or you don't.

Why would that get you in trouble? Because people would walk around like, what is it? Clearly they didn't get it or you don't why would that get you in trouble because um people would walk around like what is it clearly they didn't get it yeah and they'd run to hr and bobby has her favorites and i'd be in trouble for having guess what i did have my favorites are you a black and white thinker i don't get that from you but that like either it's black or white you get it or you don't no i'm not you're not a black and white thinker. No, no, no, no, no. Do you appreciate shades? Yeah, I do.

Like the nuances and the complexities of things. But I'm also, I'm pretty consistent, but I could also, I also like people that push back on me and sometimes I change. I mean, I am open to change my opinions and ideas. What is it in fairness? It means just someone who is like aware of things and understands how things work. And, you know, you're looking for awareness. I'm looking for awareness.

I'm looking for a camaraderie and someone that understands. Okay. Like, for example, if I was, you know, sitting here and I finished my tea and someone was around, I would, I would ask if I want a refill. I mean, I noticed all those things. Did you guys, you didn't have chocolate, did you? Cause it stayed in the same place. No, I did not. But it was nice. It was a nice gesture. But yeah, but I knew when I walked in that you didn't have chocolate because you would have passed it to your wife. But isn't that weird that I know those? No, that goes, yeah, No, that goes back to the

awareness, the street savviness. So I was hoping when I knew I was coming to your office that your, your line is about, or your brand, I should say, is about stripping down and exposing the natural beauty of women, men, I guess, but it is, but that's, that's been your brand and your signature, I think. Right. And so what I was hoping when I came to your office, that it was not going to be opulent, that it was going to be stripped down. And what am I? Oh, yeah. Do we look like we're in prison? No, no.

But like you've got brushed concrete floors, you've got exposed walls, you know, glass and steel. And it's not this. I don't know. There's nothing fancy about it, but it's, it's beautiful in its own industrial way. And so it was, it's really who I am now. Yeah. So there's an alignment is what I'm, what I'm noticing about it. So that, so then this brings me back. Okay. I want to go back to, so you've got a street savvy and you've got an analytical way. What about attention to details? I am. Um, well I say I'm self-diagnosed.

Oh, you're going to love this being a shrink. I'm self-diagnosed ADD and OCD. Okay. All right. So then that's bad for details. It means I like everything lined up, but not for very long. Okay. Yeah.

All right. Got it. I posted that once on Instagram, but it's really true. Do you like Instagram? I'm, are you kidding? It's my favorite thing. It's my knitting. I run for what reason? Cause I'm visual and I'm like putting pictures and words together. I like meeting and talking to people. I like seeing what everyone else is doing. And, um, I run a couple of our Instagrams, you know, business

Instagrams, and I think I'm pretty good at it. You got to check out the George hotel. You got a great way about you. Yeah. You don't take yourself too seriously. You're really clear about what's important to you. You love people. I only like some people. I like most people. I love you even more now. What are you wanting to build? I asked what you're searching for, what you're craving. I found what I'm looking for and now it's just icing on the cake. Well, okay. Wait, wait, wait. I want to hear that.

What, what were you looking for? I was never really looking for success. I wasn't looking for stardom. I never wanted to be a business woman. I just realized how much I love creating. I love creating. I love the, I love working with teams of people that create things. I love solving problems.

I love changing things. I come in here, they're working at the desk, and I'm moving furniture around. I'm cleaning out the back room because it's unorganized. And they're like, Bobby, come over here, sit down. And I do what I'm doing, and I look around and see all the things that have to be done. I just love the visual creative part of what I do. What would you suggest to somebody who has that same love, but then finds that they get in their way and they get in their way with thoughts like, yeah, but it might not work out or I don't have enough money or I don't know how to manage

everything. You know, like, I don't know how to take the leap from artists to entrepreneur. What would you suggest to them? Well, I get that question daily. Um, and I just have the same answer. And unfortunately I have to borrow it from Nike. Just do it. Just do it. You have like, there's people that have like created, you know, lipsticks that they want to sell. And they're like, well, I have to get money to do a website and I have to do this and I have to do that. And I'm so busy, you know, I'm on good morning America doing makeup for blah, blah, blah. And I said, okay, stop right now. Do you have an Instagram? I do. I said, show it to me. I'm like, I don't want to see your kids. Do you have an Instagram for the lipstick? Make one. Okay. You're on good morning America. Did you give this lipstick to

Robin Roberts? No, I didn't. Why not? Her son's on Broadway. Did you share it with the makeup artist backstage? Did you? No, I didn't. And so I said, okay, call me in six months. And she called me in six months and she now has a website. She did herself and she's, she says, yeah, I'm talking at this breast cancer thing. I said, just keep doing it. Call me in six months. Super practical. Just, I am super practical. I am. Okay. All right. What is your need to control? What is my need to control? I did my husband put you up to that. No, no, but I'm just sensing. I just feel my way through this.

I don't know. I just, I don't know my self-righteous. Do I just think I know? I don't. Cause I know, I know what I don't know. No. Okay. Or you asked me what I need to control or why do I have a need? No. What, like how, what is the intensity of your need to control? We all have it somehow. Well, you know, I got this, like, I, I kind of know what I think things should be. I mean,

I guess I shouldn't say think if I have a need to control, I know what things should be and I just want them like that. I am, you know, I guess I'm impatient and I, I'm, I expect things that I expect from people, what I would expect from myself. Would you want to work for you? Yes and no. I would say mostly yes. Yes, if you got it. Back to philosophy. No, if you don't. Okay. And then how do you get in your own way? What do you do that slows you down, that gets, you know, where you beat yourself up or something? I don't know what it is for you, but how do you get in your own way?

You know, for me, it's probably my struggle with how I feel. I mean, I, I deal with in life like bad digestion. Sometimes I've been on a good path right now. I don't know if it's stress or if I'm just have something going on in my gut where I wake up in the morning, I don't feel good enough. And I'm, my brain's not working properly right now. For some reason, I'm on some good path. I don't know what I'm doing different. My brain's working well. I'm, you know, everything is processing good when I'm not good path. I don't know what I'm doing different. My brain's working well. Everything is processing good. When I'm not doing good, I don't know if it's I'm doing too much.

I'm going out too much. We go out a lot for dinner. And my ideal meal is the brown rice and avocado and chicken and a vodka. Or tequila. Or tequila, yeah. Have you done any of the gut biome measurements? So many times, and I've never gotten any information that's made anything. You know, I did a biome, and it was... Isn't that a pleasant way to gather...

Oh, yeah. Oh, I think it was Michelle's first day where she had to take my blood, yes. Yeah, yeah. But the information, when it came back, I was like, what does this mean? Oh, yeah. What does it mean? It took too long, and I told them that, too. I said, it took too long. When it finally came, I was like, what does this mean? What does it mean? It took too long. And, and I told them that too. I said, it took too long when it finally came. I don't know what it means.

Okay. So it didn't help you make some changes. Yeah. I make changes constantly. I'm, I'm on a path to doing things to be better and feel better. That's, that's what drives me. Honestly, do better and feel better. Yeah. Yeah. My grandfather, I've mentioned him like three times now, had a philosophy that was really important to me. Think well to be well. And so he imparted the wisdom that the way that you think, he didn't know the science of it, but he would say it all the time. Mike, think well to be well. That's so brilliant. And honestly, it's something I've been thinking about because someone once said to me, I have a, an acupuncturist friend. He's a Jewish Chinese acupuncturist,

long story. But he said to me, cause I always think it's what I'm eating. And he said, it's not what you're eating. It's what it's eating you. Hmm. Okay. So, which is why when I'm on vacation with my husband in Paris, I can eat whatever I want. I have no trouble. I come home four pounds thinner and I struggle with those pounds when I come home and I'm eating vegetables. I'm like, what is going on here? So you live a life that has high stress. But I'm not aware of it.

That's my problem. Yeah. That's what I'm sorting for you. You've got a big motor. I have a big motor. You go, go, go, go. You probably outlast most people. And I'm 61. That's what I'm sorting for you that you like, you go, you've got a big motor. I have a big motor. You go, go, go, go. You probably outlast most people, but you've got a- And I'm 61 years old. Like I'm not a kid. That's rad.

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's rad though. And so you've got this big motor, but I'm sensing that you don't necessarily know how to shut it down. No, I don't know. And I, it doesn't shut down. Well, do you, so let's say, let's change that term to shift from sixth gear to fifth gear to fourth gear to third gear, you know, go back up to fourth when you want to come down to neutral. Like that's a rhythm throughout the day. You know, it's those, those of us that run in sixth gear all day long, and there's a corollary to the, our brainwaves, beta brainwaves.

Right. So we have beta brainwaves throughout the day. We hit the pillow exhausted and we fall asleep, not because we're part of a rhythm. It's just that we've outworn our capacity to go. And so there is a cost to that. There's a compromise and it oftentimes can be gut issues. Digestion. So how do we change that? And can I have your cell number? Yeah. I think that being able to figure out how to regulate, like we would not suggest that the most finely tuned race car in the world would just stay in one gear. We'd say, no, no, no, there's times to go to neutral. And so that, that is one of the, I don't know, the wonderful gold dust sprinkles of meditation is like figuring out my list. It is meditation.

I don't do meditation, but when I'm, I I've learned a couple of techniques that I guess are somehow when I'm having these crazy days and I'm walking from one place to another, even down the hall or to go to the bathroom, I am breathing or I'm not breathing now. Like I do the breathing. And then when I'm laying down, if I can't sleep or there's things going through my mind, I visualize myself with like a white cashmere blanket that someone else is putting on me. You know, someone's putting like warm oils on me and I'm sitting at the beach and like, then I kind of relax and my brain shuts off, but I don't do when I'm active. Yeah. So I think it's, I just had a brilliant conversation with John Donovan, the CEO of AT&T. And I asked him about his practice

and cause he's big on it. And he said, it started for 10 minutes in the morning, like that was years ago. And it's now three hours. I said, why, why would you do that? And he said, for every minute that I invest, I am exponentially better in the other minutes of execution, whether it's eye contact, whether it's answering emails, whether it's understanding. So I don't have the luxury of three hours. No. Who does? He wakes up at 430 in the morning.

Okay. And all of that inner work. Is he married? Yeah. Happily? Okay. I will. So he reports.

Yeah. Okay. And so that's a big time commitment. And he says he feels like he's one of the lucky few that doesn't need a full nine hours, eight hours sleep. So anyway, um, but let's say that a 10 minute investment is a three X, 10 X output. Well, and I think there's some really, there's no science that would directly link that, but there is science. If you're interested that those that practice mindfulness have an increased frequency and flow state. I the apps yeah and so it's more of a discipline thing yeah so what if you did what if you didn't follow science and you just said hey

listen what we're going to do is i'm going to do 100 breaths throughout the day throughout you know and i'm going to do them in the quiet moments as opposed to like 100 breaths in the morning okay we could start now each breath's about 12 seconds, 16 seconds. Really? 12 to 16 seconds, somewhere in there. I remember the first time I ever took a yoga class and the teacher was one of these, like, you know,

with the chimes and the whole, like, I hate that kind of yoga, like this whole spiritual thing. She says, okay, everyone, think of your own chakra and your own thing you're going to say. And I remember laying there and I'm like, get me the fuck out of here. Get me the fuck out of here. I relate. I definitely relate as well. Okay. Last question for you. One, before we get to that, thank you for your time, for a great conversation, for sharing your insights. And I hope that I've done your genius service. I hope

that I've been able to ask the right questions. Oh, you're awesome. You should do this for a living. What do you know? This is actually, this is not what I did. This is just something that I've, I've wanted to learn from brilliant minds, the best thinkers and doers. And this has been a great way to do that. So thank you. That's so cool. No, I want to know more about you guys. And yeah, it's been really enjoyable. Last question. How do you think about, define, I want to know more about you guys. And yeah, it's been really enjoyable. Last question. How do you think about, define, articulate the concept of mastery? Mastery is just being the best that you could be in whatever you are. I mean, that's it.

Super crisp. Simple. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you too all right thank you so much for diving into another episode of finding mastery with us our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you we really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe

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