Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Brenda Tracy, Survivor & Activist

Episode Date: March 20, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Brenda Tracy, the founder of the national campaign SetTheExpectation which aims to raise awareness around issues of sexual assault and domestic violence -- through the power of sports while also engaging, empowering and educating men as agents for change.Brenda was gang raped by four men in 1998.So heavy.In this conversation, she shares that even though law enforcement collected extensive evidence – including confessions from her attackers – the District Attorney advised against prosecuting her case.She was never advised of her victims’ rights, nor informed when officials destroyed her evidence three years prior to the statute of limitations.Sixteen years later, Brenda came forward publicly, and now seeks to make the world a better place for survivors.Her stance on “men as the solution” has garnered national attention and made her one of the country’s most influential voices on sexual assault.I wanted to speak with Brenda to better understand courage.Where did she find the power to come forward, be vulnerable, and not only stand up for what’s right but also strive for change._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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why I'm still here. Like all of us could have saved someone's life and not even known it. All right, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais and by trade and training, a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations is to learn how the extraordinaries think how they do. How do they organize their internal world as well as their external life to be able to understand the nuances of both craft and self. And in these conversations, we want to dig to understand how do they do that, but then how can we apply some of those insights and learnings for our own life as well. And the whole idea is not so that we're better, just you being better or me being better, but when we become better, we can also help others do the same. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success.

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Now this week's conversation is with Brenda Tracy, the founder of the national campaign Set the Expectation. If you haven't heard about it, this conversation will wake you up, hopefully. And the campaign's mission is to raise awareness around issues of sexual assault and domestic violence. And she's using it through the power of sports while also engaging, empowering, and educating men as the agents for change. If you're not familiar with Brenda's story, this might change you. Brenda was gang raped by four men in 1998. Really heavy. And in this

conversation, she shares that even though law enforcement collected extensive evidence, including confessions from her attackers, the DA advised against prosecuting her case. Wait until you hear why. She was never advised of her victims' rights, nor informed when officials destroyed her evidence three years prior to the statute of limitations. Now, 16 years later, Brenda came forward publicly. And now her life efforts are really about working to make the world a better place for survivors, but even going upstream from that to reduce and possibly even eliminate domestic violence and sexual assault. on men as the solution, as garnered national attention, and made her one of the country's most influential voices on sexual assault. And I wanted to speak with Brenda to better understand courage. Where did she find that internal power, that internal conviction to come forward, to be vulnerable, and to not only stand up for what's right, but also to organize her life efforts for change. And with that, here's Brenda Tracy. Brenda, how are you? I'm great. Thank you for having me today. This is great. I've been

looking forward to you coming in because last we connected, you were on stage, we shared our stage, and you got a standing ovation. And got a standing ovation, not because of how you delivered what you delivered, but that was an intricate part of it. But it's the way you embodied your, um, capture of your life. And so I don't want to start there. I want to start with, where do you want to start? Where do you want to start this conversation? Oh gosh, that's an interesting question. Where do I want to start? I think wherever we can start, I think what's most important for me, for other people to hear is just, I guess, ways that I navigate my life. And I know that when I, when I speak, I stand on the stage and I'm very vulnerable and I cry and I'm very honest with people. And I think, I think it's important

to talk about those things and, and why I do those things or how I do those things. Cause I think there's a lot of misconceptions about what strength is or what vulnerability is or what courage is or all these different things. We place constraints on ourselves. And through my journey, I've learned a lot about those things and where my real power comes from. And I don't know that as a society, we're really tapping into those things as individuals. I think we see, we have an idea of what things look like and maybe they're not right. And so this podcast, these conversations are just about that. Like trying to understand mastery, working to understand like, what are the sub components? How do people organize their internal world? And how do they create a life that they can pursue a deep understanding, whether it's

craft or self, or maybe even both. So you've got at least three sub capabilities that I'm fascinated by, right? One is vulnerability as it leads to courage. And then the third is authenticity. Now something you wouldn't know this, but one of the themes that's emerged in these nearly 200 conversations we've had is that people have been through heavy stuff. So everyone that's on this conversation on this podcast has committed in some way or another, their life efforts to deep understanding, right? Call it mastery. And there's been this thing that there's been deep pain involved in, I want to say like 90%. Okay. You've lived that. We're going to

talk about that. Of course. Like, but you've lived that, but I want to know before, before what happened before maybe, maybe actually the way we should do this is we should have a conversation, maybe just talk about what happens. Um, and then I want to, I want to use that to go backwards. Right. So maybe talk about the reason you and I are here today. Well, I think we met at a Nike event where we were both speaking, uh, to some coaches and I am a rape survivor. And the reason that people in the public know who I am is because I came forward in 2014 with my own personal story of being gang raped by four college football players. sometimes dream, dream time during my sleep, um, to trying to end sexual assault, physical violence, helping people to find healing, helping engage men as the solution. Cause we talk about them a lot as the problem, but really just trying to change the dynamics and the conversations that we're

having around sexual violence and interpersonal violence. You had a great insight last we spoke, which was that men are the solution because if it was up to women, this wouldn't be happening anymore. Oh, for sure. How'd you put it? Like your grandmother's grandmother, grandmother would have stopped. Honestly, I think Eve, if you believe in Adam and Eve, I think that Eve would have done it. So it's a really charged point. Like, are you saying that men are the problem and the challenge? Or because it's like, how can it not be that?

I think research shows us that about 98% of all sexual violence is carried out by men. So men are committing these crimes against other men, women, children, just humanity. Do you know the numbers, men committing those crimes on men versus women? I don't. I know for sexual violence, many of the perpetrators, well, 98% of the time it's a male perpetrator. As far as domestic violence, we see that victims tend to be, you know, half and half men, women, and I don't know the numbers on the perpetrators, but I know that women tend to perpetrate physical violence, domestic violence, probably at a different rate versus sexual violence. Okay. All right. Good. So the two, two separate, for me, those are two separate kind of

issues that you have to talk about. But when we specifically talk about sexual violence, perpetrators are normally a man that's a perpetrator with sexual violence. Okay. How old were you when it happened? I was 24 when my gang rape happened. And you were 24. Were you in college at the time? I was not a student at the time. I was

dating a football player at Oregon state university. Okay. And the nature in which you described this was like, I don't know how you do it. Like that. That's one of the reasons I wanted to have you on because many times when people relive or retell the story, they re-traumatize themselves. Yes. So I'd like, I'd like to learn from you about it. And, and I don't want to put you in a position where you, if you don't want to tell the story, but I do think that there's so much to learn from the way you tell your story as well as the outcomes from it. Yeah. So where do you want to take us? Well, I do share my story in really graphic detail. Um, I do talk about that night. I go back into that apartment every time I share my story. So was it a dorm? No, it was an off-campus apartment. Um, and I had went there with a friend, her boyfriend lived there, uh, my best friend.

And she had asked me if I wanted to go with her. She didn't want to go by herself because it was her boyfriend that lived there and another football player and guys just come in and out of the apartment. So were her antenna up that maybe this isn't a safe place? No, there was no antennas because it was, um, her boyfriend, they were all football players. They were teammates of my boyfriend. I had been there before. There was no antennas for me that there was any danger at all. Nothing. Which I think is a common misconception for society because somehow they think we should have known, the victim should have known that something was going to happen. But more often than not, you don't know. No one intentionally places themselves in a position to be harmed that way.

Yeah. There is some research when there's folks that come back from being abducted or whatever, that there was a spidey sense. Like, I wish I would have said something. I felt something weird and it was too awkward for me to leave or scream or yell. And I'm not saying that for your case, but there is some research that indicates. No, there is. And I talk a lot about that. There's two types of fear. There's a fear that prevents you and there's a fear that protects you. And when you can figure out those two, it makes a big difference in your life. Keep going there. So it's interesting. You're right. When we see people, well, I got on the elevator and the hairs on the back of my neck stood up, but I didn't want to be rude. So I didn't get off. Right. For me, that's a fear that was trying to protect you. If I had a fear about sharing my story coming forward, that was a fear that was trying to prevent me because that was one of the biggest moments in my life of healing that I encountered. Wait, what do you mean there? You had fear of coming forward.

I did. So what was the gap between the incident and you telling somebody? And I think you had a, you had a medical exam, but I can't remember. I did. I did. So, so after, so my rape happened that night. And then the next morning I was, I was a mess. I mean, there wasn't, in that moment I was in such crisis after it happened. There was no way I could have hidden it from anyone. I know a lot of survivors hide these things. Initially I was suicidal. I was a disaster. And my friend drove me home. And I think that, I think that, and I cried the entire way. And I think that she called my mom because then

I really remember my mom being with me. I was on, I was laying on the couch and I was crying and she was sitting on the floor next to my head. And she was kind of petting my head, like, you know, stroking my hair, trying to calm me down. And I was saying to her, Mom, I'm so sorry. I drank. I know I shouldn't have drank. I don't know what happened. Please don't be angry with me.

Please don't be ashamed of me. So I was in very much a crisis mode. And my mom wanted me to go to the hospital. I didn't actually want to go, but in that moment I had to think about stuff like, was I pregnant? I don't, I was in and out of consciousness for, you know, the six hours, my attack lasted for six hours. So I don't know what they did to me. How did that happen? How did you go in and out of consciousness? So that night I was asked if I wanted to drink. And back then I really didn't drink because I grew up in an alcoholic home. And then my children's father was a drinker.

And so I was a person who needed to be in control of myself and everyone around me. And so I didn't drink because you can't be in control of everything when you're drunk. So originally I said no. Everybody knew I didn't drink. And I was like, you know, when you're drunk. So originally I said, no, everybody knew I didn't drink. And I was like, you know, I don't drink, but they assured me like you're in this apartment, you're safe. You can crash on the couch. You're with friends. Like just have a drink. And so I said, okay, I'll have a drink. And then I was given a drink. It was Tangerine orange juice. I remember the cup. It was like a pea green Tupperware cup. And I drank about four

ounces of it. And then maybe 15 minutes later. So I started feeling woozy and dizzy and I passed out. And then I was in and out of consciousness for the next six hours of my attack, 10 hours, probably total before I fully gained consciousness and woke up completely. What are some of the things you remember? Um, I remember them laughing. I remember when I, I remember when I, the first time I came into consciousness, I remember immediately becoming aware that I was laying on the floor on my back and I was naked. Um, and I turned my head to the right first cause I immediately realized I couldn't move my arms or my legs, but I could move my head. Okay. So if I put a pause in this right now, when you share this, what happens for you? Cause that, that, that was the part for me that I want to, if you're,

if you'll go there, like, is this re-traumatizing? Is that, are you fully? Yeah, it is. Yeah. So, okay. So for clarity, like we don't have to tell that story. Like, no, it's okay. Um, yeah, I mean, I'm getting emotional now, um, because when you, when I have to tap into that memory and I ha and I talk about it in detail, um, I do feel like I'm going back in that apartment. Right. That's what I would imagine. And you can't, you can't feel, you can't feel, um, it's kind of a, a welling rising anxiety and pain that kind of just fills you and kind of just permeates every cell of your body. And I try so hard not to cry. Even right now I'm trying and I can't.

And I can like literally feel the shame and the disgust and the embarrassment of what they did to me. And that doesn't ever just, I share my story over and over again. And every time I go in that apartment, it doesn't change. I get that feeling every single time when I stand on the stage and I talk about it. And you do that for what reasons? What are your reasons to do that? I think one of the things I made a decision about when I first decided to share my story was, um, I felt like this is a heart issue. Like I need to be able to use my story to, to connect to another person's heart and their being and their soul and their

spirit. And if I sound like I'm reading from a book about another person, then not only have I dissociated from my story, but I can't connect with you either. And so I made a promise to myself that if I was ever going to share my story and walk through that trauma, then I was going to do it in a very connected way so that I can reach another person. Because I also feel like it's only when we're touched in that way that we're moved to action. And if I share my story and you feel nothing and you're just like, okay, thanks for sharing your story. And then nothing changes. Then what am I sharing my story for? What is the point?

I mean, I feel like this, it can't just be in vain. And so you purposely connect. I do. I personally connect and I, and I intentionally humanize myself and hopefully other survivors. I don't know about the second part, but the first part for sure, you know, and I imagine the second part is true, but the first part for sure, when I saw what you did, I was like, Whoa, this is different. And I haven't been privy to seeing, to see survivors of rape be on stage and talk about it. So you were the first person that I

saw do that, which was remarkable in and of itself. Not the fact that I haven't been exposed to it, but the courage it takes for somebody to do that. That's why it's probably so rare. Yeah. Then the way you embodied it, which you just did again right now. Yeah. And so, yeah. So, okay. And I want to be really clear. I don't want to push in any ways that you places you don't want to go, but I do want to learn. Yeah, no. And this is, this is perfectly fine. And it's, and it's interesting how I have kind

of learned to go, like, you can hear my, I hear my voice, my own voice right now. And I kind of in and out of the trauma. You can go, you can touch it and then you can exit it. Yes. Okay. And is that exit, is there a trail to it or is it like in out? Um, I think that it's, that part has taken time. Are you out right now or is there still a trail? Like, okay, I'm still kind of connected, but not overwhelmed. Yeah. I'm connected, but I'm not overwhelmed. Okay. So that's a skill. Yeah. Right. And that's probably not a skill you wanted to build, but that was a skill that came through practice. Yeah. That part definitely. It doesn't take as

long for me to recover now as it did in the beginning. That's a rad insight. I've never heard anyone say that. So you've practiced going back and touching that place within you that has incredible pain. And when you do that, you embody it, you live it, you feel it. I'm going to say re-traumatized, but maybe that's not the right phrase. Maybe I'm using. Yeah. I don't know if it's re-traumatizing to me anymore. I mean, it's trauma for sure.

Yes, but it's not re-traumatizing. I don't think so. I feel like re-traumatizing would mean that it's negatively affecting my life or somehow that I'm acting out maladaptively to that trauma. And I, and I think that one of the things I've learned is that many things can exist at once. So I can, I can live in my trauma in certain moments. Um, and I can feel it and I can face it and heal from it, which I'm still working on healing. There's a lot to untangle and unravel, but at the same time,

I can also live a very happy life. And I can say that I live a good life today and I have good people and I feel joy and peace in my heart. And you know what I mean? Like many things can exist all at once. When was the last time that you felt peace? Like what I've asked that question to a lot of people. Oh, I've only just started to learn about peace within the last four years of sharing my story. I, cause I think one thing that people don't really know about me is that, um, I've lived a life of trauma. I was first sexually abused at the age of two and it was by my grandfather from the ages of two to five. I lived in an alcoholic home. Wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on. Two. Yeah. I was a baby. I was a baby. Was it pre-verbal before you could talk or were you

talking at that time? Um, I, I don't know if I would, was talking, I'm sure I was saying words by then at age two. Um, I, I just, the memories are not clear at that point. Um, you know, that's, yeah, that's a hard one. Childhood trauma is a very interesting dynamic. Um, but, but I do have, I do have a clear memory from, I mean, had walking shoes on. I remember looking down at my shoes and seeing I had walking shoes on like those old school, like white walking shoes. Is your grandfather still alive? No. Did you talk about it when he was alive? No, I never said anything until after he died. Yeah. Why is that? I hear that often. Why is that? I think for me, it was safety. I think that he. Was it about your parents, do you think? Or was it about him?

Safety from him? I think maybe both. I think I had very much dissociated from that trauma. I had memories and things. That was too painful. The dissociation was too painful. No, wait, wait. Let me say this more eloquently.

I know I stepped on your thought, which I didn't want to do. But you, the disassociation, the fact that you disassociated was a brilliant strategy, right? That's the coping strategy. That's the one you had. That's the one that worked and it led you to now. Okay. And then, but when you look back with the, your, I guess, most recent, which was when you were 24 experience that you're saying, hold on, I could do this again, disassociate, but that's not the way forward. Well, I think, so I think during my lifetime, because of the trauma that I've endured, I think what happened when I would dissociate,

which is a common coping mechanism for survivors is the memories were kind of like a movie that plays in your head, but it's not you. So it's okay, right? It still infiltrates every part of your life and nothing is okay, but you don't really connect the dots and you don't really understand it. And there was a moment when I finally associated with all of my trauma in my life and realized that's me. That's me in that movie that's playing in my head. And that was for me, a really pivotal moment in my life. I mean, I kind of had a breakdown really. I don't talk about that a lot, but after my grandfather had died, um, there was a, there was a moment where I didn't really don't talk about a lot of this. I realized that there's a lot of stuff I don't talk about. Is that what you just did just now? Were you just re cause you know the story,

right? Yeah. Did you just take that moment to pause, to reflect on, um, am I going to tell it or why haven't I told what were you just doing just now? Yeah, I was, I, I went back to that moment when I associated that that was me in the, in that movie. Um, and, and I remember that moment really clearly that that happened. Not because you haven't spoken about it. That moment is really important. I'd love to learn that about that moment. So, so that moment was, so in 2010, I got saved and I've always kind of had, so it means that I kind of dedicated my life to Jesus or said, you know, I believe Jesus is my savior kind of thing. And then when, when did the gang rape happen chronologically? 1998, 1998 and 2010. So two, 2010, I, so 2010, I was a nurse. Um, and I was just living a life that I wasn't happy with.

I wasn't dealing with any of my trauma in my life or anything, but I just felt stuck. I felt stuck in my life and I wanted something better. Somebody else knew. Um, yeah, they knew back then we never talked about any of it ever. So I just, I was just at a, at a point in my life in 2010 where things are really hard. I think my mom had been diagnosed with cancer. My kids were having problems. Um, just a lot of things were going bad for me in 2010. You have kids. I have two sons. Okay. And so what age did you get married or what year did you get married? So I had my first son when I was 18, I was still in high school and I married his father when I was 19. And then just a couple of years later we divorced. Okay. Give me a, give me a little bit

more of a picture. So two to six or two to five, you said you were molested by your grandfather. And then I cut you off and I want to know the story. And then we're going to get to that moment in a minute. So then alcoholic family, I think you said, which is mom or dad? Dad. Dad. Okay, keep going. Give me that frame so I can understand where you came from.

For like as far as like where my life was going? Yeah, the big important points for early life. So I think the big important parts were obviously ages two to five, I was molested by my grandfather. My grandfather was always in my life, my entire life. I grew up in this alcoholic home. When I was nine, I was raped by my babysitter's boyfriend. Um, I, at age 12, I disclosed that I had been assaulted by him. The police were called. Um, I thought that something really big was going to happen in my life at that point because I had told and the police had come. But in Oregon, the statute of limitations

had ran. It was only, I think, three or four years at that time. So I remember that my mom came to me and said, and I think I was 12 at this time, she said, nothing's going to happen. The statute of limitations has ran. I didn't understand what statute of limitations meant at that time, but I did understand what nothing's going to happen meant. And then we just pretended like nothing happened and we just moved on with life. Well, I did it. Mom's codependent. Yeah, for sure. Dad's alcoholic. Dad, dad, my dad had gotten sober, um, around the time of my rape. Actually what happened was my, my dad got sober when I was nine and they decided to become really great parents and they got me a babysitter. Before then I had always kind of

stayed by myself. And then when I got this babysitter, her boyfriend had assaulted me. Um, and my parents were very much involved in AA and Al-Anon and I just didn't feel part of the healing process and they were trying to heal and I wasn't feeling it. Right. I pretty much had been a very independent child and left on my own for a long time. Um, so what was school like school? Um, well, I remember being a latchkey kid. Like I remember, um, I didn't know how to tell time. So I knew when it was time to go to school because the rambling rod cartoon show was over and I would, you know, I was supposed to walk to school. I remember skipping school a lot and not going. I remember being home after school and by myself a lot.

How would you characterize your experience of early life? I don't have a lot of great memories about early life or as a child. I don't, I don't have a lot of great memories about it. I, I try. Is it, well, let's, let's not make something up. I try, but I just don't have a lot of good memories about being a child. I just remember feeling alone a lot. I remember being alone a lot. I remember being made fun of a lot.

I remember struggling a lot as a child. What were you made fun of? I was always kind of tall and kind of bigger than everybody. And, you know, I've been this tall since like the seventh grade and I was always the tallest kid. I'm 5'10". In seventh grade. But, you know, jolly green giant and, you know, I wasn't that pretty. I was a late bloomer and people just made fun of me a lot. I think I'm pretty now. That's awesome.

I feel better about myself now. I love that. That's good. Okay. So, all right. But how would you describe it? Is it, was it dark? Was it intense?

Was it scary? Was it sad? Like, it goes in and out of all of those. hanging out with the wrong kids, kind of being self-destructive. And my parents, so my mom, my parents were divorced when I was like one and a half or something. So I have a biological dad that lives in Alaska. And when I was five, I think I was five or six, they started putting me on a plane by myself to go, like the stewardess would watch me, but I would go visit this man in Alaska for two weeks every summer. So I knew he was my biological dad, but you know, I have my parents in Oregon, but when I started acting out, my parents in Oregon realized they couldn't control me and they thought something bad was going to happen to me. So

one day they said, we're going to go to the store and get in the car. And I got in the car and we got on the freeway and they put me on a plane and sent me to Alaska to live with my dad. Like, see you later? Yeah. And so that was really hard for me because I didn't get to say – I was 12. I didn't get to say goodbye to any of my friends. I didn't know I was going there. I didn't really know this family.

I mean, I knew them, but it's not like I spent – And you came out at nine. No, I was assaulted at nine and I said something at 12. And then that same year. Yeah. Like maybe a few. Yeah. Maybe a few months later.

Like mom's still alive. Mom had no idea how to be there for you. No, no, not at all. Right. And she, and she admits that today that she had no idea. What is your relationship with your mom like now? We have an amazing relationship today. She's my best friend she had no idea. What is your relationship with your mom like now? We have an amazing relationship today. She's my best friend.

I love her. Um, after my gang rape, um, I think it just started to happen from there. When you talked about it. No, when, no, she was there for you at that moment. She was there for me in that moment. Um, but we, we started to build a relationship over those years. She helped me with my son. Um, because it's interesting because I got sent to Alaska at 12. Right. And then, so I live with this family and

that was its own trauma in itself. I didn't really, well, first off my step-mom told me when I first got there, they didn't really want me there. I was just there because my parents didn't really, well, first off, my step-mom told me when I first got there, they didn't really want me there. I was just there because my parents didn't want me. Um, so that was a hard time for me to be there. I keep doing this. Like I can't like, but I can't, I want to try to understand where your resiliency, where your vulnerability, not your vulnerability, your courage to be vulnerable comes from. And you've just lined up like eight of the heaviest things that I can imagine for a child. Okay. And so when you arrived and you didn't get to say goodbye to anyone, your parents said to you,

see you later. We don't know what to do with you. After you just told them that one of the most horrific thing happened under their care, basically, right? At age nine, nobody was going to do anything about it. I can only imagine a sense of hopelessness. Absolutely. And because of that radical frustration and anger, high anxiety, and a deep separation from what is this world? Like, how does this thing work that I don't matter? And I'm just other people's expense. You know, like I, what I'm an afterthought. Do I have it close? Yeah, absolutely. And then you're shot off. So completely separated and ripped away from any support structure you had. And then you land and they say, we don't want you either.

That was pretty much the, pretty much the, the, the message was you need to do what we tell you to do and behave or you're going, you're like, you're going back. Well, no, not going back and going to foster care because those parents don't want you. So, yeah, so there was, um, my stepmom didn't really me there. And there was arguing in the house about me being there. Um, and then, so I found sports. That's when I found sports. Cause I was in junior high. I was, uh, in the seventh grade. I think when I go back to that moment, when you, they said that, or gave you that message, do, was there exact moment or is this more like a theme? Oh yeah. That carried out through the time I lived there. Do you remember a moment when they, when you realized that they didn't want you either?

Cause I want to know what you did in that moment. So my step-mom had made that clear to me when I first landed. Like that was the first conversation we pretty much have when I first landed. My father- What did you do with that moment? That's what I want to know. That moment when they said to you or she said to you, here's the rules. What could I do? I had nowhere else to go. But what did you do? I tried to behave and do what they wanted me to do. So it's like you said, okay, yes, I understand.

Yeah. Okay. So it wasn't like watch. Because there's no work I got to go. I don't have anyone to call or do like children are children don't have options. I mean, that's how I felt. I didn't have an option. This was my support system. I can't go back to Oregon. I can't run away. Where am I going to go? I'm in the middle of the woods now. I'm in Alaska. Um, so I started going to school. I tried to behave. I got in a lot of trouble, but that's because I realized now that my stepmothers, you know, rules were just not okay.

Oh, so you still got in trouble up there. I still got in trouble. I, you, I had to put the silverware in the dishwasher a certain way and I had to have the ironing board a certain way. And you can only wear black a certain amount of times a week. And there were a lot of things I got in trouble for that. I, there was just a lot of things. There was a lot of rules. So were you pushing against those rules or like, I did somewhat. Yeah. Like she didn't want me to stay

in my room. So I'd always want to be in my room or I wouldn't talk or, you know, I, a little bit, there was nothing terrible that I did. I don't there's nothing terrible I did, but I would get in trouble. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission, helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentous Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts and every batch is third-party tested.

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it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. You mentioned suicide earlier. When was the first time you had suicidal thoughts? Actually, surprisingly, not until after my gang rape. So it wasn't during any of this as well? No. No, which is kind of when I think back on my life, it's kind of surprising that I didn't before because I lived in Alaska and I played sports sports and that was, you know, I talked to people a lot about that's the only place in the world where I mattered and people loved me and they clapped for me and they cheered for me. And I was not necessarily the prettiest girl in school, but I was still popular because I was an athlete. Um, so everything about me became like Brenda's an athlete and that that was where I lived in my head of where I mattered.

But then there came a time when I was at school. So my junior year of high school, I wanted to make amends with my mom in Oregon because my understanding from my stepmom was that my mom didn't want me. And so she did things like intercept phone calls and different things. She set up this construct for me that my parents in Oregon didn't want me when in fact they did. And I did not know this. So when I was a junior in high school, I decided that I wanted to make amends with my mom. So my coach actually, and I knew I had to hide it, my contact with my mom in Oregon. So I wrote her a letter and I gave it to one during my senior year, I wanted to go to Oregon and live with her for half the year, go back to Alaska, graduate my high school class because I thought I was going to college to play sports. And I thought that would be my last moment to make amends with my mom. And I wanted to have a relationship with her. I didn't have the foresight to realize that she might get that letter and then call my family. So when she called my family,

they were really angry that they felt that I had gone behind their back and betrayed them. So during a very short period of time, someone came to my high school one day and said, Brenda, you need to go to the office. And I found out that our house had burned and we had lost everything. And so I went to my aunt's house to meet my family in Alaska and found out that our house had burned. And my family said, there's really no point for you to be here anymore because you want to be in Oregon. So they put me on a plane and sent me back to Oregon. Barely had my letterman jacket, the clothes I was wearing that day and a book bag. I had nothing cause I'd lost everything in the fire. They were able to get some stuff that was smoke damaged, some of my personal items. Um, but it kind of gave me a check and I went back to Oregon and again, didn't get to say goodbye to anybody.

Let me ask. Like nothing just got put, you know, if you don't behave, then you just get put on, you know, you just get sent away. What do you stand for? When you boil it down right now as an adult woman, like what is it that you stand for above all else? And it doesn't need to be a word or even this eloquent statement, but it might be. But what do you stand for? Empathy. And for you, empathy is? What's happening? Understanding your ability to help or harm another person.

Understanding your ability to help or harm. Think people make intentional decisions and our decisions affect other people. We have to ask ourselves in these moments when we're making decisions, are we helping or harming that person? Yeah, we really need that. Yeah, we do. Okay. So I didn't think you were going to describe it that way. That's really powerful.

Most of the times in the clinical sense, empathy is having an understanding and conveying that understanding to other people, like having a sense of what it feels like to be them and then having the skill to convey it back. But you went, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if everybody has the ability to place themselves in another person's shoes or to have that type of empathy of, of understanding another person's feelings. I certainly try to convey that when I share my story and try to bring that out in people. But at the end of the day, if you can't do that, then can you just understand your power to help or harm? Um, and maybe if you

can understand your power to help or harm, then maybe you could think about, have I been helped? Have I been harmed? And what did that feel like for me? So maybe that's the route we get to it okay so that therein lies a challenge for great responsibility for people yeah right and yourself included because we all have that power yeah to help or harm absolutely every single one of us are attached to someone that we can help or harm our children, our friends, our family, your coach athlete, like we, every single person has a relationship with some, with another human. Can you talk a little bit about, and there's still part of this, I need to understand, you know, from that moment where you wanted to tell your story, I want to go back to that. That's not lost on me, but can you speak on some of the more powerful ways that you've recognized or learned that people

can help others? And you can also talk about the way that they harm them, you know, but I'm more interested in like what you've learned about how people can help. I think some of the most simple ways are just acknowledging people, acknowledging their existence. I think validating them, that they matter, that what's happened to them matters. Even if you don't understand it, even if you can't relate, understanding that we all have our own experiences and that they have shaped us into who we are, um, as people. Um, but being seen, being heard, being acknowledged, being validated that you exist and that you're here. I think all of that really matters. How do you do that with other people? Cause you're actually really good at it. Yeah. Um, I think one of the things is that you're not alone. But how do you do it? What do you do?

What do you do? Because like when we saw each other today, you have a brightness about you and enthusiasm for the conversation that we're, you know, whatever, both times. So how do you, how do you do that? How do you convey to other people that they matter? I think, I think some of it is just a conscious choice. I think that you just make a conscious choice. Like when I've made a conscious choice at some point in my life, I don't remember exactly when, but then when I greeted people and saw people that I was going to smile and look them in the eye. Right? Like it's an intentional thing.

And I live my life with a lot of intention and purpose. And sometimes it's the smallest thing, the smallest intentional thing that can make another person feel really good. And also just the idea when people talk about, you know, leave people better than what you found them, right? You, there's so much that can be done in that first moment when you see someone and you just look up at them and you look them in the eye and you smile and say, hi, it can change the demeanor of everything or just intentionally a nice handshake, right? Like intentionality. I think we miss it so much. people that struggle with pain that have a lot of pain in their lives. It makes sense that they are looking to take from other people to relieve their pain,

hurt people, hurt other people. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And, and I can recognize it when I'm in whatever, struggling with whatever, like it's great when somebody can be there and say, Hey, I see you or whatever, or can I help you? It's, it feels like it solves it. It doesn't solve it. It is a nice temporary, um, recognition of, you know, that we're in this together in some way. But how did you move from that pain into actually being intentional? What were some of the steps that this is about you and your growth? And it might, the story might be best served if you started at the moment where you said, okay, I'm going to speak out about this gang rape.

Well, the moment that I decided to do the story, um, I know a lot of people want to think that that was some big moment of courage and it's really not. I always feel like I'm disappointing people when I say like there wasn't this aha moment in that moment. What had really happened when I decided to do the story was I was just desperate. I just needed things in my life to be different. I was literally just waking up every day wanting to die, and I was tired of being tired. I needed a different life. I was living a double life.

I was good at it, but I wasn't happy. I wanted more. And I saw the opportunity to share my story and put my face and my name on it, because that's the other big thing, right, as a moment of change. Maybe if I do this, the story will run. The next day I'll wake up and that'll be the first day in 16 years

that I woke up and didn't want to die. It was a very selfish act. And I mean selfish in a good way, not a bad way. Why didn't you commit suicide? What were the things that were stopping you? So the moment I never considered suicide until, um, after my gang rape, I was actually on my way to the hospital with my mom. We were in our van. We were on the way to the hospital. And I remember my mom was sitting, she was driving, um, 10 and

two on the wheel. She's taking her baby to the hospital. I strayed forward, and I remember looking at her, and she was crying. She wasn't making any sound, but just the silent tears were streaming down her face. And I remember thinking, I did that to her. I hurt her. And I felt a lot of shame around that. And then I just started thinking about my life in general. I thought about the fact that I was sexually abused as a little girl by a family member. I thought about being raped when I was nine.

I thought about, you know, just being abandoned and discarded and nobody cares about you. Nobody loves you. And I was, you know, a teenager when I got pregnant with my son and I had family members disowned me because he was half black. I had people that hated me and I didn't have sports anymore, right? Cause that was the one place I mattered. I didn't have that anymore. Uh, the gang rape, I was in a domestic violence situation with my children's father. And I just thought, what is the point? Like literally, what is the point of me even existing on this earth if I am only here to

be beaten and raped and abused and abandoned and nobody really cares about me? Like why am I even here? And that was the first moment I thought about suicide. And because I'm a purposeful thinker and I always kind of have been, I thought, well, who would care if I died? And I thought about my mom. My parents were the first people I thought about, my mom and my dad. By now, my dad is sober. They're doing better. I'm like, they'll be fine. Thought about my sons. I had both of my boys at that point. By this time, their dad was in and out of jail and he went to prison for most of their lives. And I thought they'll need their mom, right? Surely my sons will need me. But then I thought about the fact that someday they would be young men. And when they were young men, what would happen when they found out what happened to me? How could my sons ever love me, not be ashamed of me, not be disgusted by me, embarrassed of me when they found out that I had been gang raped. And so when I thought about the shame that I bring to my sons and I figured they'd be better off without me, that was my last tie to the world.

And that was when I decided to commit suicide. And, you know, I, I can go back to that moment too right now. And I can tell you like how good that moment felt like it, it, that moment when I decided to commit suicide, it felt like this like warm melting from like the top of my head down to my feet. Like it just felt like, ah, like freedom is right around the corner. Yes. And it was this amazing feeling, but I was on the way to the hospital, so I couldn't do anything about it.

So I thought, okay, my mom wants me to go to the hospital. I'll go get this exam done. I'll get checked out. And then when I'm done, I'll come home and I'll take my life. And I understand suicide a lot better today because of that moment. Because when we hear people say, well, we thought they were doing better. And then they killed themselves. It's because they made a final decision and they did feel good about it.

So they were doing better. That's the dangerous phase. That's the danger phase, right? And so, but then I got to the hospital and the thing was, is that I met my nurse, Jenny, and I talked to people a lot about whether you believe in God or a higher power or not. He has a different plan for your life than you do most of the time. So I got to the hospital and I was going to do this exam and I met my nurse. Her name was Jenny. And I fully thought

that when I met Jenny, it was going to be awkward. I wasn't going to want to do this exam. The last thing you want to do is like, you know, get up in some stirrups on a table and have a vaginal exam after you've been raped. Um, I thought that she would think I was gross. I knew I was going to have to tell her what happened to me. I just thought the whole entire thing was going to be really uncomfortable. Um, but when I met Jenny, it wasn't like my very initial meeting with her. As soon as I met her, she introduced herself to me and looked at me. It wasn't awkward and it wasn't weird. And I got into the exam room and I was sitting on the table in my hospital gown.

We're at the very beginning of everything. And she had to leave the room for a minute. And I sat on that table and I said out loud, God, why should I be here? And I felt like I literally heard him say, not loud, like a booming voice, but like in my heart, I felt like I heard him say, I want you to become a nurse and take care of your sons. And that moment changed my life. It was a pivotal moment for me. I was like, okay, I'm supposed to be a nurse, but I didn't know how. So Jenny came back in the room to do my rape kit, which is a forensic exam. And she would say, Brenda, we have to do the vaginal exam. And I'd say, Jenny, how did you become a nurse? And she would say, Brenda, we have to pluck 10 head hairs and 10

pubic hairs. And I say, Jenny, where did you go to school? And she'd say, Brenda, you know, this man's gonna come and take photos of your body. And I literally had, you know, pictures head to toe naked. And I say, Jenny, how did you pay man's gonna come and take photos of your body. And I literally had, you know, pictures head to toe naked. And I say, Jenny, how did you pay for school? And we ping pong back and forth for like four hours until I learned how to become a nurse. And I started school like two months, almost to the day later. Whoa. I became a registered nurse.

How did that play out as like a coping strategy for that moment for you? You know, so school, so I'm kind of a person who, by the way, good job, Jenny. Yeah. Right. Jenny's amazing. Jenny's an angel. Jane, Jenny saved my life. Literally. I wouldn't be here without Jenny. And I see why you make eye contact now. Like she, there was a moment. That makes sense. Doesn't it? I didn't think about that until you just said that. Yeah. That's interesting. You're right. That is why it's's got to be that moment that Jenny looked at me. She saw you. She did.

She absolutely did. Yeah. Wow. Thank you for that. That was a little gift. Yeah. So I carried a lot of shame with me during those 16 years. And I always have.

I've always kind of had a shame based life just because of where I started in life. I've always just felt shame. Um, do you think other people can relate to shame? Oh yeah. I think so many of us are, oh gosh, shame is something you could talk for hours about. I think that, you know, looking back on my own life, like shame was my ruler. I think shame was my parent. looking back on my own life, like shame was my ruler. I think shame was my parent. Like I've kind of named it like as my parent and my owner, because everything I did in my life was based on shame and all the decisions I made were based out of that. To not be found, to not be seen. To not be found out. Yeah. Everything. Like you can't, yeah. You don't want people to find out about you.

You have to do this. You have to do that. Everything was attached to shame. Yeah. When shiver, when shame is present, it's really, we make clever decisions. Like there's a shiftiness about how we navigate relationships, people, situations, things we do don't do shame and guilt are the two big ones in AA for sure. And so shame and embarrassment are intimately linked. And then. Well, even trying to, well, even the shame part of not being worthy. Right. So for me. But you were taught that you were conditioned that you, you know, in the traumatic experiences that you've had. But part of the reason I went to school, like I have a master's in business and healthcare management. I don't use it, but

like I, I went really hard at school. Did you finish your RN? Yeah. Yeah. I was a registered, I practiced as a registered nurse for 14 years. I'm a registered nurse still. I have my license and everything, but part of my pursuit of school and putting all those letters behind my name was to prove that I was worthy to breathe the same air as you. And a lot of that was still a chain attached to my shame and feeling like I wasn't worthy to breathe the same air as anyone else. I had to prove that I was okay to be here. That is not uncommon. And I very, so I aggressively pursued certain goals. Um, this is the achievement wheel, right? Like I matter if I do more. Exactly. And so I'm going to do extraordinary things to be extraordinary. And buy a house and two cars and big fat rims. And my kids are in Jordans.

And you know what I mean? Like really proving to people that I matter and I belong here. Do you think your level of that neurotic approach to life was greater because of your experiences or that if somebody is tapped into that, it, it, it's similar, but like, there's not a whole lot of similar, I think it's just, it's a coping mechanism. And, and I think it helped me survive. Right. And it ended up not harming me. I mean, going to, I don't know if going to school is a great way to put it. Yeah. It's a great way to put it. Like it's a, it's a productive coping strategy, right? Like a socially approved coping strategy to work hard. I mean, I probably didn't need my master's degree and all the student loans It's a productive coping strategy, right? Like a socially approved coping strategy.

Yeah. To work hard. I mean, I probably didn't need my master's degree and all the student loans that came with it, but I still have those letters and I have the loans to prove it. So from shame, you end up working your ass off to navigate the world as a coping strategy and it eventually led you to some good degrees. Yeah. Yeah. And some path. And I was able to give back a caretaking path.

Yeah. I'm, I'm, yeah. You are. I am. I think even, even, you know, in my job as a nurse, I think that I always talk about how I just tried to pay forward the gift that Jenny gave me. And that's just the idea that Jenny didn't know I was suicidal that day. I did not tell her and she saved my life and she, and she didn't do anything extra. She just did her job. And I think for me, why that's relevant for everybody else is because you don't know what you could do to impact another person's life. It could, it could be something really insignificant to you, but it could mean everything to that person. So how often do we just walk around as people? What if you intentionally smiled at someone or gave them a compliment or held a door open? Who knows?

That could be that, that one thing that that person needed to validate them or their experience or why I'm still here. Like all of us could have saved someone's life and not even known it. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft,

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Okay. I want to go back to an aha moment for you. Okay. Is that the moment that you said, okay, I'm coming, I'm stepping forward. So now we fast forward, how many years from the hospital? That was 1998 in November, 2014. Oh, so summer 2014 was when I met the reporter to sit down and he said, I'll write your story. And I was like, why did you tell me about that? So what happened was, um, I had started going to counseling. Um, in that would have been probably just prior to the summer of 2014.

Uh, my grandfather had died and so I had kind of associated to all my trauma in my life after his death, kind of had an emotional mental breakdown, wanted to feel better. And so I had started going to counseling to get better. And when I, when I first got there, we didn't even talk about any of my sexual trauma, right? We talked about like my kids and I'm just so stressed out. Yeah, pretty much. And, and thankfully my counselor was smart enough to know that we have to do this first before Brenda can delve into what we're really here for. Um, so a few months. Yeah. Oh my God. It took a while. Um, but then, so what happened was then it is a joke though.

Like even in like, let's say somebody has an hour, like when I was getting trained, somebody has like an hour session. It's like the last seven minutes are like the work. Yeah. Like the dancing before to get to the work was like the 53 minutes. Oh, I did a lot of dancing. I did a lot of dancing, but she stuck with me and she's amazing. That's great. Maybe, maybe. I kind of want to say, yeah, but do we need it? Do we need that? The dancing? Yeah. Right now you probably want it. Oh, I think so because I think some traumas are so scary. Yeah. It's so scary to face some of these traumas.

What did you need? They're life-threatening. But yes, for sure. So if you're going to face a trauma that makes you want to kill yourself, that's scary. What did you need to be able to go to the deeper conversation? I think with her in my counseling sessions, I think it was just the trust that I had with her. I think that I more trust. Yeah. I think cause you know, one of the first topics that we talked about that was really hard for me to talk about counseling was just my experience

with vicarious racism. Um, because when I had gotten pregnant with my, my first son, my grandmother disowned me. So I didn't know that I had a lot of racist people in my family. So when I got pregnant, some people weren't upset that I was a teenager and pregnant and not going to college. They were mad that my son was going to be half black. So my grandmother in particular had completely disowned me and was viscerally angry and like even used slurs about my children and disowned me, never wanted to see me again. And I, and I didn't see her again until like years later at her funeral. And in the will, she said, Brenda and her father, you know, my son are to get nothing because of my son. So I had, which was just another betrayal, right? Like people are supposed to love you and care

about you. And now they just up and just don't anymore. But so one of the things we had talked about was, was racism. And, um, my counselor was actually a black woman. Um, but being able as a white woman with a black woman to have this really deep conversation where I felt like I could really open up to her and open up that wound and not feel judged and, and have her help me with it. I think really opened me up to, this is a person I can trust and talk to, and she could really help me. And so that was a, I think that was one of the pivotal things that happened between us that caused me to feel like I could, I could talk about it and be safe with her. Yeah. Super intelligent strategy for you because the low level of trust that you would have had at that time to try something that was important, which was the conversation, obviously with your,

about your son and the, did you call it vicarious racism? That's a new thought to me. Yeah. And to have that say, Oh, I feel valued, understood. I don't feel added shame to my story. So then you were able to go. Well, because my experience is that people just leave you. They turn on you. They betray you. I mean, that's been pretty much my life story. What do you think about conditions in relationships? Are relationships conditional?

As like, what do you mean? And like, which way? If you don't do well, then I'm gone. Oh, I don't think it should be that way. I mean, I think that we all have, you know, deal breakers and things, but I think communication is key. I mean, I think you have to communicate with people and find out what they like, what they don't like. I mean, you have to allow people to be authentic in who they are and make decisions about, is this something I'm going to compromise on? Am I compromising? Am I sacrificing? Am I, you know, am I changing myself to make this person

happy? Like communication is so important, but I don't think we talk enough. Yeah. I think that, I think that many people don't do marriage as well. I think they're, they lack the skills to do marriage. Oh, for sure. Well, and in general, we kind of socialize our girls to want to get married and we socialize our guys to be bachelors. So I'm not quite sure how in general marriage is supposed to work. From an early age. Right. We don't socialize our boys to like want to grow up and be married, but we do our girls. Yeah, you're right.

So, I mean, just that in itself is a little difficult. Yeah. We play in different sandboxes, you know, but that being said, it's like, I've never had that thought like this early socialization that one's supposed to be married. Yeah. I think about that. I think, I think about that stuff a lot because of just being an advocate in this space. Right. Even just little things like, you know, when we teach girls that, you know, he pushed you down on the playground cause he likes you. What is that? How problematic is that? Yeah, right. Play that for 20 years. Oh God. Okay. So. Sorry, where were we?

No, no, no. I'm like courage, vulnerability, and authenticity. The kind of big, I think are necessary substrate for mastery. Yes. And you've just walked us through moments of courage, moments of courage, moments of courage. Or surviving. Say it again. Or just surviving. Yeah. Well, I don't know.

That's what I wanted to understand. Because I haven't seen like, I mean, the courage to, it takes to entertain suicide is, is a heavy thought, you know? So there's not, okay. So this is super sensitive. I lost a family member to suicide, but there is a courage to actually execute on it. There is a hopelessness that leads to that. And some would say it's the ultimate cowardice act. And some would say it's the most courageous act. Now what it is, it's final.

And so like you demonstrated, you demonstrated in my mind, moments of courage throughout by being available, by being present. I'm not sure though, that I understand how I can be more courageous, you know, selfishly. So by in this conversation, but that's not really what this is, but I'm thinking about for other people, how would you help them be more courageous? Well, I think part of it just starts with being intentional. I don't think we're intentional enough about what we do. I think we, and that's part of like, you know, my mastery is about intentionality. It's about, I don't have to feel a certain way to act or not act. Go back on that. So I think I've learned over, and some of this is just over my, my lifespan that I learned to cope, but my feelings and my emotions don't dictate what I do and my actions. And early on in life, I did that. And I think I didn't know what it was, but like today I know what that is.

Like I live a very intentional life and how I feel and my emotions, no matter what they are, do not have to dictate how I respond, react, or the things that I do or don't do. So in nursing school, right? I was very depressed and dealing with PTSD and suicidal ideation, everything. Many days I did not want to get up and go to school, but I didn't have to let those feelings prevent me from getting up and going to school. Um, whereas, which is where the Nike slogan for me comes in, just do it. Right. Also, there were times I felt like I wanted to kill myself, but I didn't have to allow my emotions and my feelings to dictate that I should kill myself.

It's good that the Nike slogan didn't play forward there. Yeah. Well, I think it's just do it. I think it's just do it. Just do it. Afraid. Just do it. Unsure. Just do it. Scared. Just do it. Um, depressed. Just do it with courage. Just do it with anxiety. Just do it with love. Just do it. Can be many things. And that's how I interpret just do it. And that's how I always have. It's been a slogan for my life. Like just do it. Like I get up, I put on my Nike shoes and my Nike shirt and my Nike pants and I go out in the world and I just do it. It's become like my little armor. It's pretty rad. Do you have a guiding philosophy in your life? And I'm asking that wondering if Just Do It is the guiding philosophy.

Just Do It was the guide. It was the only guiding philosophy for a long time for me without me really realizing it. Well, well, somewhat realizing it. Um, because I, you know, the first time I heard the, just do it low, the slogan, I immediately just attached to it. It just, it, sometimes we hear things and they just resonate with us and just do it really resonated with me. It became more intentional after my gang rape. Then it was like every day, like, just do it, just do it. Then in 2010, when I kind of discovered God, then it became a kind of just do it with God,

just do it with a supernatural power in the universe and mother universe and whatever people want to call it. Um, then it kind of became that, um, and that's more of what guides my life today. God and Nike. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I've never heard anyone put those two thoughts together no i know i know it's crazy right because i i actually had not ever thought about that either but i remember i remember one day i kind of woke up and i kept getting these questions like from people after i came forward my story like how did you go to nursing school and raise two boys on your own and get through it with your trauma? And how did you find the courage to come forward with your story? And how did you this? And how did you that? And as I thought back in my life, I was just

like, it's God and Nike. Like, that's how I've done my life. God and Nike. What happened to the four men? I use that word loosely. Yeah. My four rapists, um, nothing. Um, they just all live in Southern California and they have families and nothing will ever happen to them. Everybody knows what they did. They know what they did and nothing will ever happen. The statute of limitations ran on my case. So, and I was blocked from the justice system. There was a whole coverup thing that happened around my case. So what do you mean? So, um, at the time in 1998, the DA told me that I didn't have a good case. The DA said it was, he said, she said I would have to go through four separate trials. It could take years and I probably wouldn't win. Um, do you think that was true or was that something else?

I thought it was true at the time. So when they told, when the DA told me that I dropped the charges, um, and then 16 years later, I found out after I shared my story, there was an investigation done. I found out that the DA misled me. The DA had taped confessions from all four men that I did not know about. Um, gross. What was that? Yeah. So back then in 1998, the stadium, the football stadium was called Parker stadium and you, anybody can Google this and you look it up. But in 1998, the football stadium was Parker stadium. The athletic department was in debt. They were courting donors for millions of dollars to renovate the football stadium. The Reeser family

was one of the families they were reaching out to for money. A rape scandal was not going to help with money donations. So the DA misled me about my case. They had taped confessions from all four men that I didn't know about. The police threw my rape kit and all my evidence in the trash three years before the statute of limitations was up to prosecute, which was six years in Oregon at the time. And the university president told everybody, don't talk about Brenda. And nobody did. And then it worked because the case went away. And the Reeser family wrote Oregon State a $5 million check. And Parker Stadium was renovated to Reeser Stadium the next year.

And that's the stadium that's there today. That's gross. Yeah, it's disgusting. And it still happens today. And no recourse? Nope, it's disgusting. And it still happens today. And no recourse? Nope, no recourse. I went to, so when I found out all this information in 2014, I went to a lawyer and I was like, what can I do and who can I sue?

Because I was really angry. And they said, we're sorry, there's nothing you can do. DAs have immunity. They get to pick and choose their cases. There were no laws about rape kits. I wasn't a student in Oregon State, so the federal laws didn't protect me. But that's when my lawyer said, but if you wanted to help change the law, we could help you do that. And that's when my citizen lobbyist career started. Did you, did you, were you able to do that?

Yeah. I walked in, I just kind of walked into my Capitol two months later and I found a legislator and I said, I should be able to prosecute these men, but I can't because of statute of limitations. And that was the first law I helped pass. And I've been to three sessions in Oregon. I've helped pass seven laws in my state. And what are the new laws? So, um, one of them is extending the statute of limitations to prosecute for rape in Oregon. Uh, one is a rape kit bill. So we found that we had 5,000 kids just sitting around not tested. So you have to test all rape kits in Oregon now. We just got through our backlog a couple of months ago. We finished with it. Some privacy laws on campuses. So some campus bills, rape shield law

for civil cases. I'm actually working on the civil statute of limitations this year. I pretty much just find any law that prevented me from justice. I try to fix it so it doesn't prevent anyone else from justice. Really cool. I mean, I'm trying to put myself into what it must've been like for you and it escapes me. And I, I, the closest I can feel, and this is going to probably sound really trite, but the feeling of when I was a kid, um, flying down a Hill on a small little like tricycle thing, completely out of control, scared out of my mind. Wait, that's not funny. No, it's true. Because I have dreams about being out of control, like in a car, like you can't, you have no brakes and yeah. Oh, you do. Yeah. I'm joking. It is funny. Yeah. But like, that's the closest I can get. And then I feel like I've

got to add like 15 layers of sadness and isolation on there. Cause that was just the fear part of it, you know? So I mean the courage for you to be able to do what you've done and you say just surviving, I totally get the difference in that. It's remarkable. It really is remarkable. Thank you. And I don't know if this short of a conversation will ever do justice to the intensity of your insight and your experiences. Certainly. What would you hope that I would better understand after this conversation? I think that just the idea that I'm just a regular person like you and how many of me are there, but that we're just not talking about it and that we're just walking around surviving and trying to figure it out.

And, you know, you just don't know. And because we, we are, we live in a society where we're not able to be authentic and vulnerable and all these things, like how many people like me are just suffering in a prison of shame and silence and never feel the sunshine on their face like I have. I think just that and how different could things be if people were able to not only be on the side that I was, but be on the side I am today. If you had the ability to, I'm lacking a word. I want to say install, but that's not the right word, but yeah, let's just use the word for a minute. Install a belief

system or a skill, a set of skills for people that have had similar experiences to you. What would you hope those skills or beliefs would be? Something they can do to help amplify and create a more hopeful path. I mean, I think for each individual, I just would love for them to feel like it's okay to be you. It's okay to like be your authentic self. And so you're going to do that by living it. Absolutely. I think in order to inspire other people to things,

they have to foresee it. Like representation matters. And I want to be a representative of it's okay to be authentic. And there's no vulnerability. Like there's no weakness in my vulnerability at all. Even if you're a man, woman, whoever, like your tears from whatever it is that you've experienced are valid. And there's power in you being able to do that. Yeah. When I see it, I see courage because I, you said it earlier differently that challenged my thought. Cause I feel like at almost any moment in time, I can choose whether to go

into the emotional experience or toggle it off. Right. But you challenged that when you said, I didn't want to do this earlier in the conversation. I didn't want to cry, but I am. So like, it was almost like your cup was fuller and I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying that that's like, that's a really rich thing. And I think when I'm talking to you, I think I need to work on the word courage. I think I have a hard time labeling myself as a courageous person. And I don't know what that's about, but I think I need to work on that because a lot of people say that to me and it always just doesn't land on me the way that I think they want it to. What word does? Say it again. Sorry. Which word? Yeah. If it it's not courage because you're saying like I kind of shun the word courage what I guess I just don't feel like a courageous person I don't I don't

feel like what I'm doing is courageous I guess I just feel like it's necessary like I just don't want anyone to go through what I've gone through. I don't want people to suffer in silence. I guess I know, I know both sides of the prison of shame and silence. You know, I know being in it and how some of it is self-imposing and what it's like to not be in it. And so I don't know, I guess I just feel like courage is reserved for other people. Maybe I just am not there with my level of self-worth yet to own it. It took me a long time to even say, like, I think I'm pretty. You dropped it in here subtly.

Not twice, three times actually. That's great. Maybe I need to work on being like, yeah, that took courage. That sounds like an interesting path to explore for sure. Yeah. Well, you know, I, all of this is a path. And one thing I try to tell people is that, you know, yeah, I'm doing better today, but I'm, I'm, there's so much work to do. I, I'm every day continue to unravel my trauma and my life experiences and learn about myself

and ways that I cope and adapt and, you know, but I do it in a very purposeful, intentional, um, way that I try to walk through with people. Like, I don't think people really understand. Like I was a very broken person when I came forth with my story. I've literally been kind of healing in real time in front of the public for the last four years. But I also feel as part of my mission is to do that in front of people so they can see it. If your vision of what you hope the world could be came true, what would we experience? Um, words that come to mind are solidarity, unity, empathy, compassion, humanity. Like we are all, that's the thing that I think about a lot is that, you know, I work with athletes and the thing that we love the most about athletes is like their tenacity and their ability to never give up.

And, you know, we talk about the heart of athlete. And I just think, like, we all have that heart. Like, we're all survivors of something. Whether it's poverty, racism, domestic violence, sexual assault, a divorce. We're all survivors of something. And if you're still alive and you're breathing and you're, you're, you're pushing forward with life, like you, you're a winner. Like you, you have the heart of an athlete. It's just that our sport is life. Like we all have that. And it's a tie that binds every single human. Like if you're alive, you're a survivor of something. So why would we,

why wouldn't we all just tap into our humanity with each other tell me about your foundation because that that question is a big question and it's been around for thousands of years matter of fact uh that was one of the original insights of buddha saying hey listen uh we're all suffering yeah and the way to tap into this is to connect with your own suffering. And once you connect to your own suffering, then maybe you'll be able to see other people suffering. But before that, you're just playing a fool's game. So I didn't even actually know that about Buddha.

There you go. And I oversimplified a beautiful 26 year, a hundred. No, I love it. Yeah. But that was the idea. Like checking on the right track. Yeah. Checking with your own before you check in before you can ever connect. Well, like he talks about, you know, we're all athletes cause we have human bodies, right? I mean,

same types of concepts. So tell me your foundation. Set the expectation is a nonprofit. Um, and my campaign, it's set the expectation that sexual assault and physical violence are never okay. Um, and it's really just about a very basic concept of just setting an expectation about behavior. So coaches with their, with their athletes to set the expectation that harming other people is not okay. And that, um, we can attach eligibility to behavior. Um, and, and then just setting the expectation about, you know, you're not just a football player. You're not just an athlete. You're a human. Um, there's, there's more to you than what you do. Um, talking about consent, bystander, all of those things, um, empowering

men to be the solution. I think we talk about men as a problem a lot and not as a solution. And that's what the campaign is about. It's about empowering, engaging, um, and educating men. So if somebody were witnessing something go down, what, what is the right thing that they're supposed to do? Three of their friends are about to do something horrible or they think that they might, you gotta, you gotta speak up. You gotta, you gotta find ways to speak up. And sometimes that's, some people don't have the courage, right. To say something,

but we have to start thinking about these scenarios and how are we going to deal with them? If we see them, what are we going to do? You know, there's different ways to intervene and do different things, but not only just that, but like, let's walk it back, right? Like a lot of times the point of the altercation, like let's say a bar fight, right? 10 steps happened before that actual altercation happened. Intervene earlier. So when you see something that's starting to escalate, step in there before um, before the point of attack happens. Um, let's talk to our young men about, you know, using alcohol to gain access to another person's body as sexual assault. It's not okay. Let's talk about the way we talk about women. Let's talk

about how, you know, men are really good at putting their mom and their sister on a pedestal, but then going out and disrespecting every other man's mother and sister, you know, men are really good at putting their mom and their sister on a pedestal, but then going out and disrespecting every other man's mother and sister. You know, what are those dynamics? What are those things? We really have to have conversations about how we socialize our men, our girls, our boys. We have to have all those conversations. The world needs you. Thank you.

Yeah. Your intensity, your intentionality, your purpose. I'll say your honesty to not say courage, but your honesty to share what is authentically your life's experiences and to do it in a way that allows other people to better understand and thereby better increase empathy is remarkable. Thank you. Yeah. So I want to thank you for the courage today that I saw, but then the, the mission that you're on, like, I think about, um, the pain involved and I hope this doesn't get confusing, but the pain involved for everybody for this story, you know, and, uh, and so no, no one with greater pain than you, but the pain about this is so heavy that we're, I don't know, a few feet apart from each other,

but I feel like I can feel every ounce of it when you share it. And so thank you for the reminder. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's always my intention and my hope. Oh yeah. My hope is always that people will feel that. And, and not only that, but then they connect it to their own pain. And, and I, and I think, you know, my hope is always to inspire people to see that it's okay to have that pain. It's okay to confront it. It's okay to deal with it. It's a healing as possible. It's remarkable. So where's the, what's the website? Settheexpectation.org is the nonprofit website. Social media. Brenda Tracy 24 are my handles on Twitter and Instagram.

What 24? So it's interesting because people, it's funny. Cause somebody asked me is that is 24 because when you were gang raped, you were 24, but it's actually, um, one of my numbers from basketball is an athlete is 24. Yeah. That one's not intentional. Okay, good. Well, I guess it is for sport. Yeah. So that's you connecting to like your ability to have power, you know, 24 is a special number for me yeah cool my basketball days yeah very cool okay again thank you oh thank you so much for having me all right thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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