Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Brendan Kane, Business and Digital Growth Strategist

Episode Date: November 21, 2018

This week’s conversation is with Brendan Kane, a business and digital growth strategist for Fortune 500 corporations, brands, and celebrities.Brendan’s greatest strength is unlocking value. He transforms complexity into simplicity with tools and methods that amplify growth and enable execution.He thrives on helping his clients systematically find and engage new audiences.Brendan's success stories include massive global brands like Taylor Swift, Rihanna, Jason Statham, Katie Couric, MTV, Vice, Lionsgate, and Yahoo.This conversation has something for everyone: whether you own a business, are considering starting one or are just thinking about your personal brand.The power of social media allows you or your organization to impact many, to get your message in front of the right people, but in today’s world capturing someone’s attention is not an easy feat.More than 60 billion online messages are sent into the world every day, and only a select few companies can succeed in the mad scramble for customer attention.This means that the question for anyone who wants to gain mass exposure for their transformative content, business, brand or connect with audiences around the globe is no longer if they should use social media but how to best take advantage of the numerous different platforms.How can you make a significant impact in the digital world and stand out among all the noise?That’s at the core of what we discuss in this conversation.Brendan shares his methods for gaining an authentic, dedicated, and diverse online following from scratch; create personal, unique, and valuable content that will engage your core audience.He just published a book that’s jam-packed with these insights- One Million Followers: How I Built a Massive Social Following in 30 Days._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And by trade and training, I'm a sport performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create, my partner, Coach Pete Carroll. It's been a blast doing that work with him for sure. And the idea behind this podcast, these conversations is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery, to better understand what they're searching for, their psychological framework, how they see the world, how they organize their internal and external worlds, to be able to explore what it means to go the distance, to understand the nuances of their craft or the insights that we all hold within us, but somehow are tapped away. And we also want to dig to understand the mental skills that they use to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions.

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for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now, this week's conversation is with Brendan Cain, a business and digital growth strategist for Fortune 500 corporations, brands, and celebrities. So he's got a real insight on how digital marketing works. And I want to understand that. I want to understand how do people do this

amplification from digital? So he just thrives on helping people systematically find and engage a new audience. And his gift is that he can see strategy. He's got this really clear ability to get it, to get the big picture and then understand how to execute on it. Brandon's success stories are pretty amazing. He's helped people like Taylor Swift, Rihanna, Katie Couric, MTV, Vice, Lionsgate, Yahoo, like to really understand how to amplify their brand. And the conversation, I think, has something for everyone, whether you own your own business, you're considering starting one up, or you're just thinking about what it means to share what is true and authentic for you, whether that's on social

media or even in writing, blogging or vlogging. And so when we think about social media, think about this. There's more than 60 billion online messages are sent into the world every day, 60 billion. And only a select few companies and people, brands, if you will, can succeed in the mad scramble for customer attention. So what is it that is allowing people to rise in that way? And what are those factors and what are the strategies behind it? And for some of you, I know this is not a new idea, but it's so important to take a look at our ability to focus deeply, yours and mine and our community here to focus deeply,

because we are outgunned and outmatched by social media. We are absolutely out-engineered by the hundreds of PhDs that are designing apps and products to grab our attention, to frame the start of our day. And if you think about it, when you wake up in the morning and you roll over and you grab your phone, what you're essentially in the morning and you roll over and you grab your phone, what you're essentially doing is framing the day of what you've missed and or what you need to do rather than finishing the natural organic way that we wake up in the morning, which is just to wake up and have your body wake up and wake up your mind and your heart and your spirit. There's a process that we are missing. And so anyways, that's a little bit of a red herring there that, you know, I'm paying attention to in my life is that how important it is to just

really properly wake up in the morning to frame the day rather than letting the hundreds and thousands of PhDs frame the day for me, for their aim, right? For their business aim. So how can you, how can we make a significant impact in the digital world? How do we rise? How do we do that? So that's the core of what this discussion is about. And Brendan shares his methods for gaining an authentic and dedicated and diverse online community and how he's done that from scratch. I mean, he tells a really cool story of how he did that.

And so, you know, he just published his book that's jam-packed with these insights. And I met him from a mutual friend, Peter Park, who's been on the podcast as well. So he comes highly recommended. And, you know, his book is called One Million Followers and How I Built a Massive Social Following in 30 Days. And so with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Brendan Cain. Brendan, how are you? I'm doing great. Yeah, cool. So you come highly recommended. And two people that I trust dearly. Both of them are a mess on social media, and they need your help. And they both know you. Peter Park is one of them who has been on the podcast and, you know, before and he's a legend. He's amazing at what he does. And he's hopeless

on social media. And he says that we have to meet. And so thank you for spending the time today in this conversation. No, thank you so much. I've been very excited for this conversation. I've been listening to your podcast, and it's truly amazing to be here. So thank you again. Cool. Very cool.

Are there any particular combos that you liked? Well, the Peter one was amazing because you get to see a different insight because I've been training with Peter for about a year now. So for you to dive in deep with him and extract that information from him was really interesting to see that side of him. Yeah. And I think anyone that's on the world stage that is exceptional at what they do. There are just gems of insights that they have and where they came from is really important because it sets the context for the insights. So can we start with where you came from and take us wherever you want? I mean, as far back as early days where you were forming some roots into modern times, but where did you come from? So I grew up in Chicago and grew up there until I was about 22, 23 and moved out to Los Angeles in 2005. And people always ask me the

question, well, how did you get into digital? How did you get into social? And the interesting part of it is I actually wanted to be in the film industry and I wanted to produce films. And when I got into film school, I quickly realized they don't teach you anything about business and film school. So I figured there's got to be a way to learn about business because I want to prepare myself. I didn't want to be an actor. I didn't want to be a director or screenwriter. I wanted to produce. I wanted to be on the business side of things. And I've always been fascinated with business as a kid. I mean, as early as eight or nine, I can remember going around knocking on people's doors and trying to sell my old toys to make money just to kind of just figure out how to generate business or create business without even really knowing it.

So I'm in film school and again, I'm just sitting there and I'm realizing I'm not really learning anything about business at all. So I figured the only way to really learn about business is to create your own and the most cost-efficient way at the time, and it still holds true today, was to create internet companies. So I started three internet companies while I was going to college, really just to learn and experiment. Okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait. You started three. This is the stuff that I love because who starts three businesses in college while they're a full-time student? Who does that? You. Yeah. I just wanted to create, I just love building things and creating things. I'm always trying to build and create something new. And

really at the end of the day, it was just a learning experience. I wasn't trying to make a lot of money. I wasn't trying to build a huge business because I didn't really know what it took. It's just building little products and services and seeing what could work. And then when I moved to LA in 2005 to pursue a career in film, it's when the entertainment industry started to reawaken to digital after the dot-com bust. So like anybody else, I started off at the bottom and I started as a PA for an independent studio. Can I interrupt? Yeah, sure. People must love you.

You have, you have a way, and I don't know if it's going to translate over the airwaves in this conversation, but you have a really kind, thoughtful way about yourself. Thank you. Yeah. Do you, do you get that from people? I do in a way, like one of the things that the reasons I think I've been successful over the years. And one of the reasons I've been successful is particularly in LA, which is notoriously difficult in the entertainment industry is to me, it's all about providing value

to people. It's like the, the, the biggest reason I think people fail, especially in the entertainment industry or in most businesses, 99% of the people I meet or the high profile clients I work with meet, they're always looking to get something out of somebody versus I always go in and I want to try and understand that person and provide as much value. So like right now I'm trying to provide value because I love your podcast and I'm just so honored to be here and just want to provide as much information and detail as possible. And to be honest, like this type of conversation is the reverse of how I approach anything because nine times out of 10, to do is like, I like love to understand people and what their needs and goals are and help them craft a strategy to reach it in the shortest period of time. And I think that's what really resonates with people. Okay. I know we're interrupting your early days, but this point I think is really important. So

you work from a curious, a kind, a, I want to add value, but I want to understand first. So the value that I add is met wherever the person is. And then you go in full force, right? Okay. Then you apply your talent, if you will. Where did that way come for you? Who did you learn that from? How did you come to be that person with that approach? Well, I think one of the, the elements reflecting back, and we were actually talking about it before we started that I think gives me the skills that I, that I have is, as I mentioned, when I was born, I got stuck and my right arm and shoulder, uh, got injured in that process. And so stuck in the birthing process. Yes.

Yeah. And so was that an emergency or is that something that happens that I don't hear much about? I don't know what that really means. Yeah. I don't know all the intricate details of it, but it wasn't something that was normal. No, you don't remember. Yeah. Obviously, I don't remember.

Mom does, I bet. Yeah. Yeah. But it wasn't remember, but mom does. I bet. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but it wasn't normal. I think it was an emergency and like I have full function and mobility with my arm. I just can't completely straighten it out. It's about like a 20 degree range limit. Yeah.

Right. Is that about right? Yeah. Yeah. But the interesting part of it is that I'm naturally right-handed, but I had to learn how to, as a baby, hold myself up with my left hand and I had to learn to play sports left-handed. So like I played tennis and I had to learn how to swing the racket. When I played basketball, I had to learn to play and shoot with my left hand versus my right hand. And I think that reflecting back

on that, I think it wired my brain in a different way that it allows me to see things that people don't normally see and can think a little bit outside the box and differently than most people. I just noticed in meetings that I always catch or I always pick up on things that people don't generally see or ideas or concepts. I would say that I'm a bit of a slow learner to catch on to concepts. But once I catch on to that concept, I will work harder than anybody else to figure out ways to maximize it. And that's where the creativity comes in. It's like one of my best skill sets is the ability to distill things down into its simplest form, because I literally have to do that for myself. Like in order to understand things, I have to distill it down into its simplest form.

So when I'm in conversations with people I admire or smart people, I will ask them as many questions as possible and I'll ask questions in different ways so that my brain can understand it. And then when I can understand it, then I can articulate complex solutions or complex strategies to the people I work with. And I think that that's also one of

the reasons I've worked with really high profile CEOs, celebrities, and professional athletes is I can speak to them on their level because I have to do that for myself. And then from there, I can come up with these creative solutions around this information or these concepts or strategies. You know what I love about your approach is that it's born in a principle and that principle is curiosity. It sounds like you're really curious about how something's working and you want to, you want to make sense of it. And then, so from that authentic curiosity, it doesn't sound like you've got the seven questions you have to ask or the 14 things that you've got to do before you prep for whatever. You just authentically show up in a curious way.

And that's born out of you had to figure out solutions because one of your arms didn't work the way you had hoped it would work. And so you had to constantly figure out solutions. Does that sound close to being right? Yeah, 100%. And then so in that, sorry to interrupt, but in that, you are wired, so to speak, to find solutions. And maybe in a way that other people didn't have to develop that pattern recognition at an early age because of the way that you came into the world. For sure.

Okay. Where's the kindness come from? God, I bet people love you. I bet people. I can't tell you. I just feel like, man, you feel safe. You're smart. You have a way about you that is articulate and caring. And I bet people just love you. Well, thank you. I really appreciate that.

Even the way you say thank you makes me go, God bless it. Like, I see why people are attracted to you because, you know, Peter, Peter Park and Tim Brown as well, who has not been on the podcast yet, but he's coming. Both legends, like I mentioned before, and they said, you just have to meet him. And so I'm going to take that recommendation at the highest level. And so I thought in some ways you were going to be, I don't know, this young whippersnapper that's got all the answers. And I was really going to learn because I do want to understand the space you're in, but it was going to be this almost brash, arrogant, is brash a word? I think so. Yeah. Is that a word? Don't make that up. Sometimes I make words up.

I've heard it used a lot. Yeah. That doesn't mean anything nowadays, huh? But this kind of arrogant, you know, aggressive, this is what you got to do, that, that, that, that, but that's not your approach. No, I can't, I can't be wired that way. It just, to me again, like, yes, first and foremost, it's curiosity, but that curiosity is also fueled by providing value to people. Those are the two principles. So not just one, it's two curiosity to understand. And the second main driver for you is to add value. Were you bullied? Yeah, I was bullied. I mean, to be transparent, I grew up in a household with a very intense father. I played sports growing up and I have a younger brother and both my younger brother and my father

played college basketball. Is this in Chicago? We're talking about, is this a suburb city? Uh, suburbs, suburbs of Chicago, north side of Chicago. Is that, um, middle-class upper class, lower class? I would, well, it was a mixture between, uh, middle-class and upper middle-class. Okay. So you could get the new shoes if you wanted them? Yeah, for sure. My, my, my father was a very successful attorney and my mother, uh, was very successful. You had more than just one pair of shoes then? Yeah. I mean, they didn't, my mom, my mom would spoil me. Your mom would spoil you. Okay. So what does it mean that dad was intense? Uh, well, I think he, he grew up, both my parents grew up from a very poor family.

So they, they worked extremely hard to get where they were at. My dad worked extremely hard. So that's where you got the work ethic from? Yeah, a hundred percent. Well, I think that there, I mean, there's more to that. Like my, again, my father was very, an intense father, especially when it came to sports, because he wanted to see me succeed. Like he really, cause he succeeded in basketball. Uh, he played college basketball for DePaul. He

was very successful in high school. Uh, and he wanted to see me have that level of success. And I think there was a sense of frustration from him with my right arm, uh, that I couldn't do all the things that he wanted me to do. Cause he wanted to see me succeed. Like I have no hard feelings of why he did what he did, but there was a strong intensity specifically around sports. And initially, as I said, I couldn't play basketball at the level that he wanted me to because of my right arm. So I started to play tennis. And the interesting thing about me in tennis was that I could practice at the highest levels.

Like I could practice, I would practice with the people that won the state tournament, but when it came to match play, I couldn't win. Like I would just shut down because there was that intense pressure coming from my father. I realized over years that I have taken over that role of my father. So I'm an, I'm extremely hard on myself and there's this intense drive to succeed. And that's where I think a lot of the curiosity comes from. Cause I'm always looking, learning about how can I improve myself? How can I improve my abilities to succeed in life? So you just took me on a little, like a little, like a little turn that I wasn't expecting.

So I got, I thought I was tracking and this is why I love staying in conversations and not judging, you know, before you get to the end of it, because I thought you were going to say my dad was really intense. It was hard. Um, I felt a lot of pressure growing up. And then the last thing I wanted to do was to do that for other people. And then you took a turn and you didn't say that you took a turn and you said, so I'm really hard on myself. So that, that to me sounds like you've used that intensity that your father maybe overdid, you know, as a young kid for you. And, but have you figured out the right intensity for you or do you feel neurotic? Do you feel a little crazed underneath of it? And there's, listen,

there's no judgment by me on this. I come from a rather neurotic place. And so do you come, and I say that, and I'm kind of laughing because I have worked really hard to not be neurotic, you know, and my wife is looking at me going, yeah, I know the other side of this too. So, so all that being said, it's like, have you figured out how to harness it? Or are you still figuring that out now? I'm still figuring it out. What is that neurotic side in you? Like, because people listening think that they're going to look you up, they're going to check you out,

or they already know you. And they're like, he's got it together. And just like almost everyone else on in these conversations, they are world best world leading. And from a distance, it looks like they've got all the right stuff. And most of them talk about how hard it is to be themselves. They're not complaining. They're like, listen, there's some challenges. It's difficult. It's, it's, it's a daily challenge challenge because again, there is that constant, I mean, there's a dual, dual issues that I deal with. First off, there's that constant drive to succeed because I feel like I want to prove that I can succeed because growing up in tennis, I just didn't do that. I didn't reach the potential and level that I could have. And I think that there's also that inherent drive that I want to prove to my father that I can succeed, but also prove to myself that I can succeed.

In many ways, we've got the same exact path. And then also I put intense pressure on myself to deliver for other people because I want to provide that value to other people. So there's that intense pressure. Am I delivering the most value? Am I helping them? Am I succeeding? Uh, because when I take on a client or even when I'm writing a book or I am, uh, delivering a report to people or delivering a course, like I want to deliver at the highest level. Like there's no cutting corners. There's nothing that I hate more than disappointing people. And I just want to make sure that I can perform at that highest level so that I can meet the expectations that I've set out for them and that they have in working with me. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous.

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Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code finding mastery 20 at Felix gray.com for 20% off. You know, I appreciate that you're talking about cutting corners too, because when I looked at your work, it's about hacks and I, I have an aversion to the word. It doesn't mean

I don't like you. Okay. But I have an aversion to the word and can I talk about that for a minute? Absolutely. And I invite a spirited debate, you know, as, as best we can do that. And you might, I don't know, you might say you'd flat out disagree, you know, stop talking about this or whatever. But so hack for me connotates a, um, a chunk out of something or a shortcut or, um, you know, it's, it's got a, there's a slang thing in surfing and action sport worlds. Oh, that guy's a hack. Meaning he doesn't have the foundations to be consistent enough to go the distance. So for me, hack has a really negative word. And there's a

lot of people trying to hack spirituality, trying to hack mindfulness, trying to hack authenticity. And there's no hack for any of those. Now there might be a hack for, I don hack mindfulness, trying to hack authenticity. And there's no hack for any of those. Now there might be a hack for, I don't know, building a building. I don't want to live in that building. I want to live in a building that is foundation-based and in life that's principle-based, if there's a corollary that I could make. So I'm looking for foundations and principles that are rugged and sturdy, that are flexible and dynamic, can sway with the winds and also stay true. So that's my position on it. And you might say, no, I have a different point of view.

I'd love to hear it and have that conversation if you can. I would agree 100% with everything you say. And I am always torn. Great. I'm always torn with the term growth hacker and whether I should use it. I kind of like the word strategist more because I think that that really resonates more with who I am. I think you have a strategic brain. The first things out of your mouth is that you see things just a bit differently. So that's a strategy play that you're using for sure. Sorry to interrupt. No, not at all. I mean, again, it's, it's always fun and fascinating. I

can go into any room with anybody and come up with a strategy for them. I mean, I literally just completed, or I'm in the midst of a project with a nanotechnology company. I know nothing about nanotechnology, but I was able to create a growth strategy specifically with them. And that's fun for me. And it's interesting that I can go into any situation with any person. I don't care if you're a garbage man. I don't care if you're the biggest musician, an athlete, the CEO of a company, like again, nanotechnology, like that's pretty niche as it goes and come up with a strategy specifically to what their needs and goals are. Okay. So then why use the word hack? Is that because that's a cool word and people love that word?

It's a great question. I think that that's probably why I use it in certain, in certain contexts, I think I'm moving a little bit away from it, but there was a period of time. And I think you're right that it's moving away from that, that hacks and hacker, uh, were a cool term and were a term that was kind of used as a hook point. And I live in a world, I've just lived in the world for about four or five years around hook points and how you really capture people's attention. I mean, I worked with Katie Couric restructuring her entire strategy and I tested about between 60 to 80,000 hook points over the course of 18 months. What is a hook point? My wife and I were looking at you like, what is that? So a hook point is another term for a headline.

But a hook point I see as something that's much stronger than a headline, because anybody can come up with a headline. But a hook point to me is what's going to capture somebody's attention and make them pay attention. Because in the digital world, there's over 60 billion messages sent on digital platforms each day. If you don't have a way to stand out and capture people's attention within the first few seconds, you lose. Like there's just no way that you can win. So I live in a world of how can you capture people's attention in the shortest time period possible to get them to pay attention to you. But you know, it's crazy. That's not how you come off. You don't come off in a way that you want the attention. It sounds like from a psychological position, you know how to grab attention.

But you're not doing it for you. You're doing it for other people. Yes. I want to just share information and value with other people. Did you want attention growing up? Or did you not want attention because of your arm or the pressures? I mean, it's an interesting part of, so I study psychology pretty intently and behavioral psychology and human behavior because I'm fascinated by it. And it also helps everything

I do. Like if you want to be in digital and you want to be successful in that world, you have to leverage psychology and human behavior. There's no luck behind Facebook success, Twitter success, Instagram success. They're all using behavioral psychology. And very few people realize that, that they're actually tying subconscious desires into resulting to their platform. So I dive into that very deeply to understand myself, but also to understand other people so I can communicate more effectively with them and connect with them effectively. But it also helps me in the strategies that I craft for them. So a big part of my, my personality, I don't know if you've heard of the process communication model, but I've been studying it for about four years now. And it's pretty

fascinating where the psychologist in the 1970s discovered that there's six personality types within each individual. But the difference is we have all six. And if we understand how somebody uses a personality to perceive the world like their base personality type, you can communicate with them more effectively. And NASA picked up on this in the 70s. And it's kind of a funny thing because you've seen in movies where they interview people for the space program. They put you in this room and do an extensive psych evaluation to make sure because they're sending you up in billions of dollars of technology. And that process normally takes like two or three days. And they brought this guy in. And within 10 minutes, he would write down on a piece of paper what their personality was and whether they were fit for the space program. It would drop it on the floor and leave. And then after that, NASA retrained their whole space program around it. And then from there,

interestingly enough, Bill Clinton picked up on this after he lost the reelection of governor from Arkansas, made this guy move down and train him and his entire staff in this model. And he proceeded to win the presidency of the United States. And no matter what you think about Bill Clinton, the people that have met him always say he makes you feel like you're the only person in the room. Because when he shakes your hand, he can tell within a split second how you perceive the world and then can communicate with you in that level. And then the other secret is Pixar has writers on staff that are trained in this model. So that's why Pixar is the most successful movie studio of all time. And you go to a Pixar movie and there's a huge diverse audience because you have a character that's catered towards each personality type.

So I know for myself what my breakdown is. And one of my breakdowns is all about reflecting on the world. So I need my space as on my own to kind of reflect. And it's another thing that gives me that strong suit. So yes, I needed a lot of downtime. I don't think I needed a lot of attention. I think more so than anything, I needed more space. Like I can remember college was a miserable experience living in the dorm rooms because you have to live with somebody else and I'm just not fit to live with a stranger in that capacity. So that's one area that I know about myself. It's not really the attention that, that, that I'm specifically looking for. But you understand the primary drivers for many people and you're using that process model to do

so. And it's art, it's built out of archetypes. It's built out of Carl Jung's original work, that there's only a handful of archetypes that people are working from. And, and the idea that, um, you can pinpoint somebody's archetype or personality characteristics in just, uh, a few handshakes or a few beats and a handshake. I think we can get close. I really think that that is possible and it's nice to have a model. So that is that the model that you're working from? Yeah, I, it's, it's obviously not perfect, but what I think it does is help understand somebody from the other side of the table. Like a basic one. I think many people do is introvert or extrovert, which you're hitting hinting on, you know, the reflective approach. And that's a really important characteristic.

Does somebody think out loud and is that how they generate energy? Or does somebody like more quiet time to pay attention to how they think and feel? And then when they speak, pay attention because they've thought about it. So like the introvert extrovert, just as a primary grouping, I think is a nice way to think about people. Yeah. It's, it's, it's very interesting because you see the patterns. Like you talk about Peter, for example, is Peter was introduced to me to help him with his digital, but I almost feel like I'm more of a, a mindset and business coach with him because I can see where he struggles a bit based upon his personality type and the areas that he needs improvement on. And honestly, I spend more time talking with him and working with him on that capacity, because I think that that's really what's going to, to take him to the next level. Yeah, for sure. He's the holder of many, many, many secrets. You know, there's not many secrets in the world and it seems like he's got a lot of them when it comes

to unlocking potential from a physical standpoint. And so, okay. So back to the internet and large social media companies outgunning us. You know, they've got 25, 35, hundreds of behavioral psychologists that are working on loneliness, that are working on the need for attention, the drivers for attention. They're working on depression. They're working on excitement via dopamine hits. They understand what's happening. So how are you using that in your business for world-class performers? That's a great question. People have asked me, how do you look at what they're doing and do you think it's right? Do I think it's necessarily right the way that they're going about it?

No, I think that they're manipulating people's subconscious in a bit. But at the same time, I'm not one of these people that's going to like, you're not going to win by just saying, no, I'm not going to play this game. Like there was a very big rock musician. I'm not going to put the name, but one of the biggest from the seventies that Tim actually introduced me to and his stance was, well, I'm not going to use social because I don't believe in it. I'm like, that's one way of going about it, but why don't you actually maximize it to your full potential and use it for good? There's companies that I'm working with that are trying to transform the world, and I've worked with non-for-profits and using it in a positive way. So I understand the psychological principles of what goes into that,

and that everything I construct in terms of the strategies, specifically the content that's created is really tapping into that. Understanding how people are being served content, understanding like with Facebook and Instagram, for example, you have less than three seconds because of the scrolling feed, understanding the psychological principles of why there's a scrolling feed and how it's designed after slot machines. And variable rewards. And variable rewards.

And understanding all of that to ensure that you're going to have the highest chance of success. Because as I mentioned, with 60 billion messages sent each day, it's getting harder and harder and more competitive. And I think a lot of people go in with, uh, with this grand illusion that because people are creating billion dollar companies within years and not decades that anybody can do it. And I, and I know two people that have created billion dollar companies in the past few years off the internet, but you have to leverage the psychology, leverage the strategy, leverage all of these tactics and understand how it works before you can really craft a strategy. And that's what, what I struggle with. And I, nine times out of 10, I get brought into situations where companies have burned through hundreds of thousands or

millions of dollars on, on bad advice or bad strategic guidance, because the fact of the matter is, is that anybody can claim they're a digital specialist or an expert or social digital expert, because anybody can open up an account. Anybody specialist or an expert or social digital expert because anybody can open up an account. Anybody can post an image or a video and add a hashtag or a headline and then call themselves a social media expert. But to truly understand what it takes, you've got to combine all of this information. You've got to truly understand the psychological principles of why these platforms work, how people consume and engage with social content so that you can construct your content and your strategy in

the appropriate way to take advantage of that. So you're more interested in helping people that already have momentum, public facing momentum, then moving your information to folks that just like to post and like to create, you know, like a timeline. You're more interested in the business platform right now. I work with people from scratch. So that's, that's where, like, I just did it. I mean, this person has momentum, but I just worked with a billionaire. That's a CEO of a health company that had no internet presence and took them 2 million followers in like five

weeks and gave him, wait, wait, whoa, whoa. You took him to 2 million followers in five weeks. So I, there was a million followers on his channel and then I did a million followers on his company's channel. So between the two of them, it was, it was 2 million from scratch, from scratch. They had nothing. They had no content. I literally had to go through all of his keynote speeches and all of his interviews. And I went and actually flew to Helsinki to sit down with him. And I did a fireside chat at a tech conference with this whole structure model I developed working with Katie Couric to maximize the potential of interviews to create a tremendous amount of content and buzz. What are some of the basic principles that I would benefit to understand? I understand

the psychology thing, right? To me, it's very simple. It's hook points. I would sit down with you for an hour or two and we would go through all the content, how it's positioned, and then we would brainstorm hook points. And like, I can come up with on a fly because I've been doing it for so long. And then you'd go off and test them. It's like, there's no, how do you test them? How does that happen? Yeah, it's a great question. So I've developed this system probably, I think over the past four years now that I've developed a set of testing methodologies and predictive calculations on top of the Facebook advertising platform. And I essentially use it as a market research tool. I don't necessarily use it as an advertising tool,

more as a market research tool, because the power of the targeting in the platform, and it's been in the news quite lately with all of the issues around elections and things of that nature. And they've been scaling back on it a little bit. Luckily the targeting parameters I use have not been removed, but the targeting is so specific on how you can test. Like I can test age, gender, what they're interested in, what part of the world they live in down to the specific zip code. Where does that information live? Like how do. Listen, I could teach you all of the basics of that platform in two hours, but the real art of it comes in the creative side. Because what I've realized is there's people really great at data and analytics, and there's

people really great at creativity and creative. And I think where I sit is I can combine the both. I don't know complex math and data algorithms at that specific level, but I understand analytics and data at a pretty good level. And I understand the creative. So I can talk to both sides and I can marry both of them together. That is your business, it sounds like. Yeah, I mean, that's a small, it's one thing I built. It was one thing I was curious about.

And it actually started with pro surfers is I wanted to get in the pro surf community and wanted to help surfers grow their following so that they could recognize their revenue potential. And I started there and then moved to working with brands, celebrities, and then also with Katie Couric specifically, where I really took it to the next level in testing hook points and headlines. So what I would do is sit down with you over a course of an hour or two.

We would come up with a bunch of headlines, and then we would create content around that or take content that you're currently have. So I'll, I'll give you an interesting case study that can kind of break down how that works. So, uh, so the first meeting I had with Katie Couric was introduced through one of the top entertainment managers in Hollywood. That's a partner of mine. And going into that, I I've known Katie Couric, but I didn't know what I was going into or what I was going to be talking about. And nine times out of 10, I go into meetings unprepared because I like that creativity. I don't go in with decks. I don't go in with PowerPoint presentations or any of that stuff. So quickly, what I realized is the problem that she was

experiencing is she was going from 25 plus years of being on television, being on the today show and CNN and CBS news and all of that, which is a very different medium than digital because you have the consumption behavior built in is when she's on the today show. It's a part of the audience's habitual nature that they're going to tune in every morning to watch Katie give the news or give stories because that's part of their behavior. It doesn't matter what the story is. They're going to watch it versus going to digital. You have to fight for an audience each time you're doing an interview. Each time you're doing a piece of content, it's not a given that you have that audience. Even if you have followers, you're still fighting against all the other content out there. It's been a huge issue with Facebook

where you can see that people will have a million followers and like 10 people liking a post. And that issue is going to become more prevalent with Instagram. So specifically I sat down with her and I knew I needed to restructure her entire strategy and literally just did this on the fly. I asked her, okay, who's the next person you're interviewing? And she told me, oh, I'm going to interview Elizabeth Banks, the actress right after this. And I said, great. Now I've got like five minutes to come up with an entire new strategy on how she's going to construct this interview. And I said, okay, this is what we're going to do is Elizabeth Banks is in the Hunger Games franchise. She's in the Pitch Perfect movie franchise. She's a strong feminist supporter. And she was in the Beach Boy movie at the time that came out with John Cusack. So those are the four segments of our

specific interview. And what we're going to do is we're going to craft questions specifically to each one of those audiences. And let me take that a step back. I don't go into any interview with questions. I go in with the hook points. And then once I have the hook points established, then I develop questions from that. Okay. So how do you develop a hook point for an interview? Yeah, it's a great question. So the analogy that I always use is if you are given the cover of a magazine, like let's just say sports illustrator or time magazine or the wall street journal, and you had to come up with the headline, you're going to be given the front page slot. And you had to come up with a headline

that would literally make somebody stop as they're walking past a magazine stand on a busy street, pick up that magazine and buy it and read it because it's literally that hard with digital. So that's what I always back into is what is that compelling headline? What is that compelling hook point that's literally going to make somebody stop on the street, pick up that magazine or article and read it. And so then, so what we did is we sat down, we crafted those, those hook points. And then from those hook points, you can craft questions, but I feel people fail so many times in interviews by just going in with questions because they, they don't maximize the output. Like I look at the end goal in mind, not the beginning. Cause what I do is I deconstruct.

Basically, I basically reverse engineered the art of the interview by taking long form interviews, cutting them down into bite-sized pieces and A-B testing them against each other to find the winning variations. So again, going back to Elizabeth Hinks, we crafted the hook points for each one of those segments for Hunger Games fans, Pitch Perfect fans, feminist supporters, Beach Boys fans, so that going in, she knew what the hook points were so that then she could push her on the questions or the responses so that you can get an emotional response or something really valuable for each one of those hook points. Because we're not living in a world of clickbait. That's not what I'm talking about because the content has to be valuable. So when she, so she

came back with a 30 minute completed interview. And then when I started to do is I started to cut out each of those different hook points. So I cut out the hook points for the Hunger Games fans, for Pitch Perfected fans and so on. And then from there, I would create anywhere between 50 to 100 variations of each clip. A variation includes five key elements. So you have the creative itself. So with the creative, you can create multiple versions of it.

So going back to what I said about the first three seconds being critical, I can take one key question, like let's say what it was like to work with Jennifer Lawrence on the hunger games. And I'll cut in different intro points. Like I'll create five different intro points of, of her starting on specific words or specific sentences, because it's that level of granularity that can impact performance. So the hook point is what it was like to work with. And then you, you back in from there, um, AB testing basically. Yeah. Right. But it's more than AB testing. It's sounds like it's, you're testing a lot. So, so again, the creative and then the creative intro, like the first three seconds, the last three seconds, and then we test whether you use captions, the color of the captions.

We test adding like a title card on the top of it, explaining that. Then from there, then we test the headline on top of that. So we test different headlines on top of the actual creative. And then you have the demographic information of male versus female. Then you have the interest levels where we had for this specifically, we had Hunger Games fans, Pitch Perfect fans, and so on. And then geolocation. So each five of those interchangeable elements make up a variation. And that's where you can take one clip, one simple clip and create, sometimes I've created upwards of 300 variations of a single clip. So coming out

of an interview for Katie Couric, I think I did over 220 interview campaigns with her. Like each one, we could have anywhere between 500 to 3,000 variations, and we're just A-B testing them against each other. And the key metric that I was looking for is the shareability ratio, the velocity at which people are being exposed to that, to sharing it with their friends and family. Because to me, that's the most important metric that I look for is are people willing to share your message for you? And that was the only way that Katie was going to succeed in that specific model. And then once we figured out the winning variation, we would narrow it down from a thousand to three. Then we would say, Hey, if you love this clip of Elizabeth Banks talking about the hunger game, well, why don't you go to Yahoo and consume the entire interview?

And so we were maximizing that shareability and earn lift to drive a tremendous amount of traffic out. Did you create this on your own? Yeah. Again, I took principles like I wasn't the first person to invent AB testing or any of that stuff. I just took it to an entirely different level. I'm not going to say the specific company, but I went into a big, huge media company

that you would know the name of it if I said it. And they had, I went up against their media agency and they had spent $500,000 on this client's content and tested about 40 variations of it. And I went in there with a hundred thousand dollar budget and tested about 75,000 variations of that content. Off that a hundred thousand dollar budget, I was able to save the client $31 million in traffic acquisition costs. What? Oh my God. Just because I took the process to a whole nother level. Did you get a piece of it? No, unfortunately, I didn't structure that deal.

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And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's Caldera Lab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash FindingMastery. In my career, I've had, there's five of these experiences and I'll keep the details out, but there's been five experiences and they happened, I would say the first third of my career. Yeah, that's, I think that's about right. And I would work with a client and the first time it happened, it was amazing, you know, and the client calls, the manager calls,

the agent calls and they're crying basically saying we did it. Thank you so much. We never really thought that it was going to turn out this way. It's amazing. This is like somebody who's signing their second or third contract and it's big, big dollars. And that happened about, and the first time it happened for me, I was like, yes, like I figured something out and what, this is great for this person. Like I'm so happy. And what, like it was amazing. That's what it's supposed to be. The purity of that was amazing. And then somewhere along the way, the fourth, the fifth time, I started to lose that purity, that innocence. And it was because they were sailing off, you know, in their massive yachts and I'm still rowing this dinghy as hard as I possibly can. I said, something's not right. So something isn't feeling right anymore.

And I don't want to be part of their win, but I need to figure out how to win, you know, and not pass on this damn dinghy that I'm tired from rowing so hard to the next generation of my family. And so business is really important in that process. So how have you gone from these rich insights that you have to creating your business? It's a great question. And it's something that I've had to work very hard on over the past four years of understanding my value and making sure that I price that accordingly. Because again, like I go into the mindset that if I'm going to work with somebody, it's not about the money. Like I need to make money because I need to make a living. And I need to, same way you do, you need to feel like you're being valued for what you're providing. But to me, first and foremost, it's am I going to provide value to this person or to this company? Can I help this person? And that's where I'm making that transition with my career is I am, like, where I'm best served is you bring me into a company for a day or two. And I will craft a brand new strategy for you and see things and

help your team see things that they have never seen before versus having me go in there. Like I get job offers all the time. I will never work a full-time job ever. It's just not what I'm best at. What I'm best at is being brought into new situations, being able to provide unique insight on how to grow your business, solve a specific problem or, or craft a new strategy. How many people do would somebody like Pete and I need to really take this seriously? And we're putting proper resources, time, money, energy behind the, this digital learning platform that we're, we're putting together right now. Like how many people, human, of course, people are humans. Like how many people do, would we need to be successful? And if you came in and said, here's your strategy,

because we can't execute on your strategy, right? We need some folks to help us. I mean, it depends on the level of detail that you want to get into. Like, again, I break it down pretty specifically. Like, and I've had people, I just had a young kid, I think he was 24, 25 come to me, who has written 10 books and he's trying to get a publishing deal. And I taught him all of my stuff in three weeks. And he was able to maximize that to open the doors, talk to agents and publishers and things of that nature. It's a great question. How many people does it take? There's two ways to go about it. And this is where I see a lot of people's struggles. They don't fully understand how much time it takes to build a personal brand on digital.

Like again, I built a million followers for myself in 30 days, but I'm still working on it every day. Like, it's not like your job is done. Like there's a lot of work that goes into it. So there's two ways you can go about it. You, if you want to. Hold on. I mean, it's an amazing gem that you just threw out there and not because it's any, you know, how many people that you have is not a currency. How many people that follow you? It's not the currency of out of the next 20 years, but it says something about your understanding of this world. So currency, I think the new currency is attention, right? And there's always going to be financial currencies that, you know, will always barter in that way. But deep focus and attention will be the new

currency. Emotional intelligence will be the sister companion of that currency. And so you've understood something to go from zero to a million in 30 days. And that points to your deep understanding of where people's emotional, I don't want to say intelligence there, but their emotional needs are as well as their ability to focus and maybe not deeply focused, but focus. So how, how does that happen? How do you go from zero to a million? And I know that's a question that you've been asked way too many times. Um, but if you could, I don't know, break that down into, yeah, sure. Yeah. That would be awesome. So again, it was the, the systematic process that I developed for the surfers, the Katie Kirk's of the world where what surfers, what was that?

Yeah. What surfers? So I did a little bit of work with, uh, Malia Manuel and Sage Erickson. Yeah. Yeah. They're awesome. Both are world-class. Yeah. There, I was a little disappointed in the surf culture because it's not as business driven and I have a huge passion for the sport. Like it's just truly amazing. Uh, but that experience of basically four years of testing content, I developed a system where I literally could scale thousands of variations. So for myself, the process I did was, and this was specifically for Facebook, which I was able to build a million followers in 30 days. On Facebook, not Twitter or Instagram. I'm working on Instagram now. So Instagram is the next phase that I've been intently focused on. I just did about 95,000 followers in six weeks. It's a much slower growth, but it's just a different platform. But I am definitely working on that. But with Facebook, the exponential growth is so quick because I've done it in 14 days, a million followers, and I'm planning on doing a case study where I'm going to try and do it in 48 hours. So using your strategy, which is

multivariate testing at scale at scale at midnight. Yeah. So essentially what I did over that time period is every night at midnight, I would launch anywhere between 50 to 300 variations of content. And what I, when I would wake up in the morning, I would launch anywhere between 50 to 300 variations of content. And when I would wake up in the morning, I would measure the results, keep the variations running that were producing the results I was looking for and turn off the ones that weren't and then use those learnings. And that's the most important thing. Use those learnings to make creative decisions on the next set of tests and the next set of tests. And I repeated that process and tested on my side, 5,000 variations of content in 30 days to, to hit that million mark.

Yeah. So you're churning out content, you know, colors, headlines. But again, it's not necessarily churning out content. It's those five key variations that you can take a single piece of content and turn it into a hundred variations. But that's the granularity when you talk about psychology and human behavior is like a color, a word, a headline could transform how a specific piece of content performs. So you're not theme based necessarily. You are working to find the theme that's going to land today. Well, you definitely back into a theme around the brand and around the specific case study or not. I don't want to say case study, but around the specific project you're working on.

So you have to identify clear themes and hook points that match the end goal or the audience that you're trying to work. Obviously, we found certain themes and certain content formats to work better than others. And we try and structure all of our projects around that. But sometimes we have to come up with things from scratch as well. Okay. So back to that question about how many folks to run a properly designed program by you. Yeah. So again, there's two ways. So if you want to get, if you want to build a real personal brand, unless you're going to do like, you could do it full time. If you're going to do it full time, you could do it on your own. Like, but most people

don't have that time to do that because a lot of people I work with are CEOs of companies or celebrities or athletes, and they don't have the time to, to focus on that. So if you want to really build up a personal brand, you need at least a few people like Gary Vaynerchuk has done an amazing job. Like he's a leader in this space. I talked to him. I just spoke, uh, at least a few people. Like Gary Vaynerchuk has done an amazing job. Like he's a leader in this space. I talked to him. I just spoke, uh, at a, as at a summit with him. And he has six full-time people myself. I have three to four people. They're not full-time they're contract workers, but you don't have to go that route. Like that's what I tell people with social know what you're really trying to go in with. Like for your example, the project you're working on with Pete Carroll, like I don't envision that you guys have to go and hire all those people. Like what I would do is how do we

find those hook points, test all this content, and then develop a funnel to put people through that. Like for example, my hook point is zero to a million followers in 30 days. It's a hook point. I went into it. The only reason I generated a million followers in 30 days is not because I wanted a million followers, because I understood it was a hook point. Instead of saying, hey, I have a lot of experience in technology and digital, it was I generated zero to a million followers in 30 days. And the real education comes in the testing process and all the things that I've learned

over the years. That's the real value that I give to people. Like I could teach anybody get to a million followers, but the real value is all the other information that we're generating. So for somebody like you that wants to push people into this information, this valuable information that you and Pete are creating into a class or to participate in some online program, I would focus more on let's just test a bunch of content, figure out which content's resonating, and have an always-on campaign that's always funneling people into that program,

and then focus on the backend value of that content that you're delivering. So that's the other way that you can go about it. Because I always work with people and explain there's not just one way to do something. You can attack digital or technology in many different ways. And there's many different strategies to achieve the level of success or goals that you're going after. And that's another thing that I struggle with with a lot of digital agencies or media agencies or social media experts.

They only speak to one strategy because that's a strategy they know. And they often ill-advised clients to take a certain path that may not be the right fit for them because it doesn't really match what their specific goals or objectives are. And they're only setting themselves up for failure. So what are your hook points for this interview, for this conversation? Did you come in with some hook points that were important for you? I didn't come in with any hook points because I knew you had specific things that you wanted to cover. I did not have hook points for you. Like it's a brand new concept. So I did not have that,

but you didn't have the zero to a million in 30 days is one that, you know, is important to you. And then do you have any others that are important in general? Well, I'm starting to realize that the zero to a million is kind of, again, is my baseline hook point that drives in people's attention. It gets people to come in and want to seek more information. But the underlying principles that drove the zero to a million are more important. The testing methodologies, the psychology about creating content. The other thing that you have to look at that I'm truly fascinated with is the global picture. Everybody is really focused on US, which is great if you are a local business or if you're an e-commerce business that can only ship

in the US. But to me, the global picture is far more fascinating. You talk about specifically emerging markets. India is at 1.3 billion people. They're going to be the world's largest population. And most people, when they hear India, they're like, oh yeah, well, there's no value there. The smartest people in the world are focused on India right now. Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook, they have, I think, 260 million users in India right now. It's their largest country. And they're investing heavily because if they get that other billion people, that's a third of their user base right now. Tesla is investing heavily. But then you look at global brands like a Coke or a Pepsi or a Nike. That's where the global scale

is for them, is Africa, India, Indonesia, and even just in Europe in general. Like when you start looking at the global picture outside of the US, there's so much scale there. Like you can only scale so far in the US. So when you're talking about 3 billion views a month, like you have to go global to really drive that traffic and engagement. And it's something that I've really been fascinated and been focusing on and testing content in different parts of the world to truly understand what it takes for different people from different backgrounds, from different parts of the world to engage with content. So when you, when you do the midnight testing, there's the majority of the globe or

half of the globe is picking up majority. Half of the globe is picking up the content while you're sleeping. And that's an international. No, you can do it domestic as well. Because again, if you're doing the U S there's always people on Facebook. I mean, there's, I think in Facebook and Instagram, there's between the two of them, 250, 260 million people. So there's always somebody up and there's always somebody, people engaging with content and your sample size by through from, cause I wake up pretty early and look at results around like 630,

7am. Like your sample size by then is a few thousand people. So you have a pretty good indication. You don't need a sample size of a hundred thousand or a million people to make assessments. Like I, you know, with the predictive calculations I've developed, I can tell very quickly how something's going to perform and I just turn it off right away. So with your intelligence, with your technology, with your approach going from zero to a million in a month, what does that cost? It depends. It depends on the type of the part of the world that you're targeting and also the content. The content is the biggest fluctuation point.

And that's where the testing comes in. So it's like very different from like the nanotechnology company I work with versus like a personal brand for myself versus a brand like yours versus like a celebrity. So it all depends. And it also really the quality of the content dictates the cost. You know, I totally get that. And I appreciate that you didn't give an actual number because, you know, but that is kind of what I'm wanting to understand. But I also want to say like a million followers for everybody is not the right thing. No, for sure. Not everybody needs a million followers. how you think about it, because I've, I've read a thousand people that are really embracing,

you know, and building community is potentially better than 10,000, a hundred thousand, a million. I don't know. I don't know what those metrics are, but what, what does it cost to build that community to build a million followers or just build a community in general? Well, let's say a community of people that are really switched on and speak in very similar languages and interested in the same principles and, you know, have purposeful discussions offline together, whatever, whatever, whatever, you know, it's a great question. It depends on the approach that you take. And that's again, like where I'm hesitant to give out numbers and specific approaches because it's different for

each person. And I like to advise people based upon what their goals and objectives are. Like for you, for example, in building out that community, it would be all about launching video campaigns, leveraging the content that you've already produced, testing every piece of content you have to see which one is really driving the attention, pushing it off site, pushing it off Facebook, off Instagram, into a funnel, capturing their name and email, potentially phone number if you want to do text messaging campaigns, and really narrowing in on that community of building a community of 1,000, 5,000, 10,000 people where you have that deep and meaningful relationship. And I'm building that type of community for myself as well. Uh, the bigger numbers come into play when you're an industry that takes a considerable amount of scale

and a considerable amount of awareness to succeed. Uh, so a Coke, a Pepsi, a major brand, they're all about big brand awareness, or I worked in the movie industry. Movies is all about big brand awareness. Or if you're a musician or you're an actor, an author that needs that level of scale in order to succeed, whether you're selling concert tickets or merch or things, that's where the numbers get a little bit more important. But also for better or for worse, the number next to your name actually means something in this world. I don't say that I necessarily agree with that, but I was able to get a publishing deal only because I had a million followers. I speak around the world because I have a million followers. Now, the million followers is just a hook point, but that number actually captures people's attention and at least allows them to pay attention to you. Now, what you have to offer and what you say after that

determines whether you're going to be successful because a million followers at the end of the day, if you have nothing to offer and no value, it doesn't, it doesn't matter. It's just a number. That's awesome. I mean, right, right on, right down the center of speaking right to my heart. Yes. Okay. Thank you for sharing like how you work and how you think and where you've come from and the challenges you've been through. I've got a couple questions that I want to run through as we're rounding out. And then the last question will be about mastery for sure. Where does pressure come from for you? It's all internal. It's, it's, it's internally driven. Again, it started off at a young age with the pressure

coming from my father to perform, but then I took over that role for myself. And what does it sound like inside? There's a lot of self-doubt there. Am I choosing the right strategy? Is the strategy I'm using working? Am I going in the right direction? Do I need to be focusing on different areas? And I think it's also what drives me to test so much and to learn so much is to make sure that I am answering that doubt within my head. And how do you work with that doubt once you recognize it? Well, first off, awareness. Having the awareness that is there and that it's just a voice and it's, yes, it's, it's real, but you don't have to choose to pay attention to it. Where'd you come to learn that?

Years of studying, meditation, psychology, working with psychologists, psychiatrists, business coaches, just learning as much as possible. How long have you been meditating? About 10 years. And then who or how did you get introduced to it? It's so crazy. I remember this, but I was on Kauai hiking on the North shore to an island. And I just felt myself kind of like super intensely focusing on, I think it was sitting by a waterfall and super intensely focusing on like a leaf. And then I just realized, you know what, this is actually relaxing me. Maybe I should try meditation. And then I picked up a few books and the person that

I am is like, I don't like to read books. I like to actually talk to the people that write them. So I found one of the top meditation guys that wrote a book and I just reached out to him. I'm like, can you teach me meditation? So I could ask him as many questions as possible. I respect that. I understand that too. And then you've been working with psychologists as well. You said, and then what led you to want to do that work? Because I think it's one of the greatest investments we can make. It's the industry that I've spent my life working to understand, you know, not the industry, but the, the, the, the craft of it. And I tripled down on it. Yes, yes, yes, yes. What led you to want to work with psychologists? It sounds like I

understand the principle, like you want to grow, but what was it? Yeah. It's, I mean, first and foremost, it's, it's self-improvement. I want it to be the best person that I can be. I want to reach the full potential that I can with the limited time I have on this planet. But also I realized like I've dealt with some stuff growing up as a kid, whether that was my arm or dealing with the intensity and pressure of sports. Uh, and I, I don't think that's something that you can solve on your own. I think you need to find that external help and guidance. And that is why I've gone down that path. How do you answer this question? It all comes down to. In life or in social and digital.

Let's split them. Yeah, for sure. To me, it's testing and learning. It's always about testing and learning. And one of the things that I didn't say before that I talked to a lot of people, whether you want to be in social, digital, or be an entrepreneur, failures are part of the process. Like, and if you're not willing to embrace that and understand that it may take us 10 times to figure out what is the best way to, to approach this, then don't go down this road because you're just going to get frustrated and exhausted and, and you're never going to succeed in that past. So it's

something that I have to constantly remind myself of is I've been a part of projects that have been miserable failures. I've been projects that have been tremendous successes and I can tell you, and it's cliche, but I've learned far more from the failures than I have from the successes. And the failures actually fuel and drive me. So again, the answer to your question, I think it's test, learn, and embrace that failure as a learning experience. When do you experience peace? Meditation is a huge one. How often?

Every day. Being in the ocean is another one. Although since I moved back up to LA, I haven't been able to get in, into the ocean as much, but to me, like growing up in the Midwest and then I lived in Laguna for about three and a half, four years living on the ocean and being in the water is just extremely peaceful. You know, there's a piece of research that I just came across that, you know, the age old idea that surfers are never stressed, right? Well, there's, there's a piece of research that I just came across that, you know, the age old idea that surfers are never stressed, right? Well, there's an interesting, so saltwater is important.

But something else that happens for people that surf or on the water a lot is that their peripheral vision is activated. So the only time we get to have access to our periphery is when we're relaxed, when it's safe in our environment. And so our attention narrows when we're under stress or duress. And so when you're sitting out in the ocean and you're like literally just hanging there waiting for the next opportunity, periphery is involved. So that's a nice piece of like little gem, wherever you can go to get your periphery involved is an accelerant or an activation potentially of the sympathetic nervous system, which is, I'm sorry, the parasympathetic nervous system, which is more of the rest and digest systems in our brain than the stress from the sympathetic nervous system.

So, okay. So a couple more questions. And it really, I want to get to this one for you. How do you think about mastery? Yeah, it's a great question. And I've been thinking a lot about it. And I think that as you would know, the definition is very different for everybody. To me, mastery is you get to a certain level where things happen in terms of flow and you can get to a place where it becomes easy. Like I don't want to say easy, but it's, it just comes naturally to you. You're not forcing it. You're not, you know, struggling for it. So for example, when I talk about you and I sitting down and going through your hook points, like I literally in 10 minutes can do that where when I first started out, maybe it takes me hours or days to do that. So there's that level of you're doing something so much that it just becomes natural to

you. But I think also the important aspect of that definition to me is you're constantly learning and you're challenging yourself. Because that's what's critically important to me as an individual is that learning experience never stops. Because I will personally get bored. And it's why I can't work within the confines of an organization and sit behind a desk. Because you're not constantly forced to learn and to try things. And I think that that's where I excel in working with corporations or CEOs and coming in because I can come in with a fresh new take and bring that kind of like hustler spirit or mindset of thinking about things in different ways.

So it's critically important to me that mastery is never defined as an end goal, but it's something that you're constantly, I don't want to say chasing, but it's constantly evolving. And, you know, again, it's a cliche, but it's literally the more that I learn, the more I want to know, because it just shows you different ways and different ways of thinking of things. Like when I talk about PCM or human behavior psychology, I've only been studying that for eight years. And the amount that I've learned in that eight years has been remarkable. And I want to learn more. And I'm always meeting new people every day and learning from them and trying to improve everything that I am so I can provide the most value to the people I work with.

When you sit across from a world-class thinker or doer, somebody that's extraordinary at what they do. And let's create a scenario that you're sitting across from them and you have one question. What is that one question? I would say that that one question is, who do you want to be? What do you want to achieve? What is your goal? That's two, that's three. Yeah. It's in the same vein. It's like, I want to understand what it is that they're lacking. What it is they're trying to really get out of life or achieve so that I can figure out a way to provide that for them. Okay. So is it, is the first one that came out of your mind, let's just start there was who do you want to become? So when we turn that on you, like, who is it that you're working on becoming? To me, again, I love the process of providing value to people. My dream

is that I can wake up every day and work with three or four new people each day and have a tremendous impact through with them. I enjoy that process more than anything of getting to understand and know somebody or getting to know and understand a business and providing value to them through different strategies, providing inspiration or guidance on how to achieve those and providing them with a high level perspective on how they can achieve what they're looking for, whether that is business or personal, it can be a blend of both of them or one or the other. I know I said I only had one more, but God, you're so rich. Like maybe this is the last one, but I know there's a, yeah, there's an end one in here somewhere, but what scares you?

Failure, which is funny because I just talked about failure that it's something that you need to embrace. But I struggle with it all the time. I feel like I've been given certain gifts and I want to just make sure that I maximize the potential of that. And I've had to redefine success over the years multiple times because when you're young and you're just starting out, oh yeah, I want to sell a company for $ hundred million dollars. I want to make a billion dollars and have a private jet and stuff. And that's not, that's not what my goal is now after I've kind of realized it, because I'm sure you're around very successful people and wealthy people, and they're no more happy than any of us. They all have the same problems and struggles.

Yes. The, the, the level of happiness is not accelerated by wealth. Of course, that's the case. But the idea of humanity and the humanity that we get to touch each other with is a really important part of fulfillment and flourishing in life. And so for you, knowing that, what are your new goals or ambitions or like what is the new vision for you? So basically the new vision for me is I'll probably only work with two or three people at a very high level. I knew I couldn't afford you, but working, working in that capacity,

I love it. You're like, ah, yeah. Yeah. But that's still at a very strategic level is providing high level strategy, coming into the office like two days a week, working with them or their team in that capacity. Because I've just realized that's where my most value is. It's like, I'd rather train your team or train whoever or bring in world-class people to execute on specific goals and help craft that strategy than do the execution myself. Like I can do it and I can do a good job at it, but it's not where I'm best served. But then for, I still want to work with everybody else and provide value. So I'm providing, I'm creating an online program or, or, uh, system where basically

I'm going to deliver a report every single day to your email inbox with not just strategies from me, but strategies from world-class digital and business and branding experts. Because again, my strategy is only one way and there's so many other strategies out there. And again, the reason I created my book and the reason I'm going down this path, I feel like there's just so much fluff in the social media and the digital world that doesn't give you very detailed, actionable insights. And oftentimes the insights are not from people that have done huge things. They're not from people that have built a company that's doing 3 billion views a month or somebody

that's built 15 million followers in 15 months or any of that. And that's, to me, that's fascinating because I love to learn from other people. And then I love to share that knowledge and information. So to me, it's all about thought leadership and trying to impact as many people as I possibly can through kind of the gifts and the skill sets that I've been given. What do you see in the next 10 years? I don't know. I'm not, I'm not in terms of me or just where the world is going, the world view. It's tough. It's such, it's at an inflection point right now that's that it could go either way. Uh, again, you look at social media and digital platforms and how they're transforming the way people think, how they transform the way people engage with human beings, both offline and online, the way it's been leveraged to impact elections, the way it's been able to leverage to overthrow

dictators. There's positives and negatives to it. So to me, it's really about who are the people that are controlling it and how are they best leveraging it? Because again, going back to that question, if social media is not, because I was on a, I did actually did a debate at Web Summit on social media addiction and whether it was overblown or not. And somebody asked me that specific question is why do you use social media if there's dangers of social media? It's like social media is not going away. Technology is not going away. So how can you leverage it to have a positive impact on the world? Because you can't compete against Facebook or Instagram for attention. It's just, it's, it's not going to happen. So you have to leverage it. We're outgunned for sure. We're outgunned, you know, outskilled

and outgunned. What are some of the indicators that you look at that somebody listening to could say, huh, case study that did a correlation between the number of times you check your phone and your level of depression. And they asked people how many times you think your phone versus actually tracking how many times you check their phone. And most people said, oh, I check it 30 times a day. And when they actually measure the results, it was over like 250. So first having the awareness and the consciousness of how often are you checking your phone and why are you checking your phone if you could just create a journal for one day and just check and write down every time you checked your phone and why you checked your phone i think i checked too much oh i do for sure yeah i mean the problem is

like i'm in this crazy vortex of instagram growth right now and like figuring out all the elements. So I have to check it and I can feel it within me that it's unhealthy. Like I know that I can feel it consciously. Can I tell you a fun story? Yeah. You know, to lighten it up a little bit too. Not that I need to lighten it up, but there's the other side of it that you've mentioned as well. Last night, my wife and I, we were scrolling through, was it Instagram?

Yeah, it was Instagram. And we're scrolling through Instagram laughing our asses off about like just the funniest things animals do. And I know maybe it sounds cheesy, but it was a fun little moment for us to just flip through and go, oh, my God. Oh, my God. What? Look at that. You know? And so there are nice little modern day bonding moments that you can have around social media and content.

But we're sitting right next to each other, making eye contact and laughing about the things we're seeing. So do you have, I know that's not novel by any means, but you have that other side of the awareness too that there's some real good that comes from this. Yeah, there's 100% good with digital and technology platforms. It's not all used for negative things. Again, there's parts of the world where dictators have literally been overthrown by the people that have been oppressed by it. And there's people out there that are having a tremendous impact. Like again, I work with companies that are transforming the world or have nonprofits. Like I did a million followers in 14 days for a nonprofit that was trying to protect the ocean. This one's called Project O. They're actually based out of Laguna.

We're actually working on a documentary series that could have a positive impact. But yeah, and you just see the interesting thing is that you actually see positive content and inspirational content perform much better. Like I mentioned that partner that I have that all they do is post inspirational quotes each day on Instagram and they've amassed 25 million followers like doing that. And I see that with my content. Like you look at my Facebook feed and all I'm pushing out right now is inspirational posts and quotes and statements and content because I feel like it has a meaningful impact on the world and people love it and resonate with it. And you can really take that to advantage in building your business or building social. Like, for example, I worked with Taylor Swift for about two years.

And what people don't realize about her is she built her fan base herself one by one. And what she realized better than anybody is the value and importance of fostering one-to-one communication with fans. She realized that with each time she responded to a comment that she took a fan or a photo with a fan or signed an autograph, not only did it turn that fan into a fan for life, but it turned it into a brand advocate. And she wasn't doing it to game the system. She was doing it because she inherently loves her fans. Like there was an album release where she did a 13 hour autograph signing session that she announced. And she actually ended up staying for 18 or 19 hours. Like she shows up to fans houses with like birthday gifts and Christmas gifts, again, not to game the system, but because she cares. And I think that's one of the biggest reasons

that she's successful. And like the Instagram community that has 25 million followers is successful is because they're pushing something positive and inspirational into the world and changing the dynamic of that conversation with all the negativity that we have. Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing. I'm wishing you the flat out best success. And then as a part in conversation, where can people find you and follow you and obviously your book, but can you tell us where we can do that? Sure. I mean, the book is available on Amazon.

You could go to the book website. It's 1millionfollowers.com with one spelled out. If you're looking for more information or connecting further than that, you can go to 1millionfollowers, again, the one spelled out,., if you're looking for more information or connecting further than that, you can go to 1 million followers, again, the one spelled out.com forward slash growth. And that's where, uh, you can connect in and figure out deeper ways of, of learning and connecting with me and the people that I have worked on. And then if you want, if you prefer to just to email me, they, people can email me at, uh, B as in boy at seekers, S E A K E R S.com or direct message me on Instagram. Yeah. And you know, there's folks that probably be really interested in how you've used technology for happiness, right? You're, you spend time on gratitude journals and yeah. Yeah. So there's some stuff out there for it

that you've written as well. Golly. I love knowing that people like you and more specifically and more authentically for me to say that you're in the world. Like it's a, it's wonderful to know. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. Yeah. Thank you for the time and folks that are paying attention to this conversation. Like, thank you for what you've done in building our community and being switched on about how to amplify good. So with that, let's have a great day. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

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