Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Brené Brown on Vulnerability, Courage, and our Fear of People’s Opinions | From the FM Archives

Episode Date: November 15, 2023

"You cannot get to courage without walking right through vulnerability."They say opinions are cheap, but the cost of FOPO – the fear of other people's opinions – is anything but.As many of you already know, I've recently released 'The First Rule of Mastery,' a book dedicated to overcoming what I've come to see as the single greatest constrictor of human potential: FOPO.And so, in celebration of this special milestone, I'm excited to re-release a pivotal conversation with Dr. Brené Brown, whose eloquent insights on FOPO are invaluable.I found that while writing and beginning to share the book, I was consistently drawn back to this very episode again and again… For those new to her work, Brené is a renowned research professor at the University of Houston, where she's spent over two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, empathy, and leadership…She's the author of six New York Times bestsellers, and her iconic TED talk - The Power of Vulnerability – is one of the most viewed TED talks of all time, with over 63 million views. Remarkable.Brené is a legend… and her timeless and practical wisdom guides us through overcoming the paralyzing fear of other people's opinions, unlocking our full potential and dancing on the razor's edge of vulnerability, authenticity and courage.Whether it's a revisit or your first listen, this conversation is as relevant as ever. Perhaps even more so.And with that, I am super excited to re-share a fresh version of our 2018 conversation with the one and only Dr. Brené Brown!_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. Caring what everyone thinks and not caring what anyone thinks are both super problematic. When you care about what everyone thinks, you lose the willingness to be vulnerable and to put yourself out there. When you stop caring about what anyone thinks at all, you lose your capacity for connection because we're hardwired neurobiologically to care about what people think. So our job becomes to get specific on whose opinions matter. Okay, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I am your host, Dr. Michael

Gervais by trade and training, a high-performance psychologist. And today I am really excited to reshare a fresh version of our 2018 conversation with the one and the only Dr. Brene Brown. As many of you know, I just published my first book. It's titled The First Rule of Mastery. And it's all about this excessive worry that we have about what somebody might be thinking of us and how that gets in the way of our potential. And so I wanted to re-release this episode with Brene because it speaks so elegantly to that topic. I found that while writing and beginning to share the book, this episode with Brene because it speaks so elegantly to that topic. I found that while writing and beginning to share the book, this episode in my mind came up again and again and again. So if you're unfamiliar with her work, she's a research professor at the University of

Houston where she spent over two decades plus studying courage and vulnerability and shame and empathy and leadership. She's the author of six New York Times bestsellers and her TED Talk, The Power of Vulnerability. It's just so good. It's one of the most downloaded TED Talks of all time. She's got over 63 million views on it. How about that? Brene's a legend. And this conversation is really special. Its insights have stood the test of time. So if you heard this conversation when it first came out over five years ago, it is definitely worth revisiting. And if you haven't, you're in for a real treat.

So with that, it's my honor to reintroduce and revisit this incredible conversation with the ever insightful Dr. Brene Brown. Brene, how are you? I'm doing great. I'm excited to be with you. Yeah, this is fun. I've been wanting to have this conversation with you for a long time, so I'm super psyched as well. Me too. I've seen you a couple of places when we're both kind of traveling and we meet up and I'm like, we need to have a conversation. It would be really interesting. Yeah, for sure. Okay, so first of all, as we get going, congratulations on your body of work. It's

significant. You've made a dent in, in, you know, human wellness and that is no easy task. So congratulations. Thank you. I love it so much. And I'm, I'm for sure have learned way more from people than I'll be able to teach. So I'm grateful for that. Yeah, when you say that, I feel that tremendously. And I also, I don't know if I'm as free as you are because you feel grateful. I feel almost burdened. And I don't know if you feel that or that's unique to me, but I can't quite figure out

how to get everything out that I've come to understand or that I wrestle with that I that's unique to me, but I can't quite figure out how to get everything out that I've come to understand or that I wrestle with that I think come on to something. I don't have the mechanism to get it out. And you have gratitude for all that you've learned, which I certainly do as well. But do you ever have that other side where you feel burdened? Oh, hell yes. Oh my God. So I'm not alone. No. Oh my God. Okay. What is that like for you? Awful sometimes, especially because I look at my work from a perspective of being a steward

of people's stories and struggles and what they've shared with me and what is the best way to take those and make sense of them and get them out to the world in order to be true and loyal to the people who shared their hard stuff with me. So I, I put myself under massive and massive amounts of pressure and it does feel really hard sometimes. And I remember like maybe, I don't know, three or four months ago, I was walking with my husband and we were kind of walking through our neighborhood one evening and I was right on the edge of burnout. And, you know, I'm like, I wish I could just like God or someone would say, okay, I think this is enough now. Like, or you can just rest or,

but, and you know, he's like, that's not good for me. Like, I don't think you need, like, he's like, you're getting everything out that you're, I'm like, but I've learned so much from people and people who have done such brave things, sharing things with me. And I just feel like, am I a good enough steward of it? You know? And he's like, yeah. Cause like, what's the option? You know, the alternative is that you work 20 hours a day, you know, seven days a week, 20 years in a row and just collapse. And he's like, that's not stewardship either.

Yeah. And so, you know, and then, you know, I realized like, in addition to sharing what I've learned from people, maybe the best but holiest form of stewardship is actually practicing what I'm learning from people, which is, you know, rest, play, reset, recover, and not just talking about it, but doing it. It was funny. I was, I was in Las Vegas giving a talk and I was talking to another speaker who kind of works in my area, your area, kind of leadership performance. And he's like, so how often are you on the road? And I said,

oh, I do like maybe 25, 30 events a year max. And he goes, man, I'm on the road 300 days a year. And I was like, how do you walk the talk? Like if you're only home 65 days a year, like I'm like, I would feel like, first of all, I'd lose my mind because I'm an introvert in a homebody. But secondly, I don't think I would be practicing what I'm learning if I do that. So yes, the long answer is I sometimes do feel like, am I doing enough? And I feel that pressure.

Okay. So you shared a story with your husband. You started this off with your husband and you have a long relationship with your husband. Is that right? Yeah. 30 years. at ground zero for every insight I've had. And yes, people have shared and I've been in extraordinary places and, but it feels like my most important sounding board is my wife. And I don't, that doesn't get celebrated enough. And I'm wondering if it sounds like you maybe have a similar mechanism that you talk through quite a bit with your husband. Is that the case or am I making too much of the first story that you shared? I think when the planets are aligned and we're doing the work we should be doing, Steve and I are each other's best partners, best sounding board, best counselors, best confidants.

I think that is, you know, I think that's where the magic is. Does it happen all the time? No. Sometimes we just, you know, he's a pediatrician and he's got a, you know, a big career and a really committed practice. He does private practice, but he also works with undocumented kids and a school-based clinic. And so when we're working the work and doing what we're supposed to be doing, we are each other's best sounding board. Yeah. What does your work look like?

Well, when I say when Steve and I are doing our work, meaning we're prioritizing the right things, that we're, you know, shutting out the noise and getting down to what's really essential and important to us when we're investing in our relationship. When we're doing those things, we're showing up with each other. I mean, really, it's about making time for each other and prioritizing each other. Then we become each other's greatest confidants, greatest counselors, greatest sounding boards. When we get sucked into the noise and bullshit and lose control over, we hand over our agendas and our lives to other people and other things in order to, I don't know why we do it, but it's a pattern, I think, for all of us. I think it's because things are bright and

shiny and we want to try them or we feel obligated or we feel a sense of duty or we don't want to piss people off. When we're not doing our work and we're letting other people set our agenda and our priorities, you know, two big careers, two kids can be, can create a lot of distance between people. So I think when I talk about our work, I talk about the work of showing up with each other and investing in our relationship because if it's not working, nothing else is working. Okay. Quick pause here to share some of the sponsors of this conversation. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships,

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p-r-o-t-e-i-n.com finding mastery and now back to the conversation and do you have any practices that help you with that and i'll share one of mine it's like when I come in after whatever day, long day, short day, it doesn't matter. Most of my days are really freaking intense. But when I come home, I take a moment, I put the cell phone down and that's like a big trigger, right? And I take just a moment to walk into my sanctuary. And it's just like standing in front of the door or in my car as I'm pulling in the garage, whatever. And I just take a moment, a beat to remind myself that, okay, I'm heading into my sanctuary. And that's a nice little piece of work for me. And when I'm off that and I'm- Awesome. Yeah. Do you have any little triggers or practices that are part of that work of

creating time and having priorities be aligned? You know, when we first got married, I don't remember who told me this, but someone said, Hey, you know, the marriage is 50, 50. I was like, yeah. And they're like, that's total bullshit. And I was like, what? And they said, the only ones that last are the ones where when you have 20, your partner can come up with 80. And when your partner has 10, you can come up with 90. And when, you know, and so I was like, wow, that's really interesting. So we started doing this thing where we would check in with each other and we'll say like, look, you know, Steve might say, look, I'm max 25. And I'm like, I gotcha. I got 75 in me. What do we, let's, you know, let's do it. On some days, and this has been the most profound,

helpful thing, I'll come home or he'll come home and we'll look at each other and I'll say, you know what? I got 20. And he'll say, you know what? I got 20. Which is super great because then we'll say, okay, we've got a big ass gaping 60%. So whenever we have the gap, we always say, okay, we are extra kind, extra patient and watch what we say to each other. If there's a gap, like we just name that thing. Like, you know, cause when I travel for work, I travel, you know, I can travel a lot, especially if I'm on a book tour or some kind of intense demanding, you know, cause when I travel for work, I travel, you know, I can travel a lot, especially if I'm on a book tour or some kind of intense demanding, you know, junket and I'll come home and I'll have 10, man, I will really, especially as an introvert, I'll come home and I'll, and if I have to do media, Oh my God, terrible. So, you know, and I, I used to make

up this story that he would be standing at the back door, you know, and open up and say, Hey baby, I got 90. It's okay. But he's like, opens the back door and he's like, dude, it's a good thing you're home.

Cause I got 10 kids are making me crazy. I've got to make brownies for this tomorrow. I've got three patients. I got to go see him on call in the hospital, you know? And I'm like, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm, I'm the tired one. And he's like, tired. You've been in hotels. I've been, I've been here with kids, with sick kids. And so then we just started going, I just opened the door. I'll be like 10. He's like 10. And we'd be like, okay, we got to love us up some 80 because that's really good. Yeah. So there's a, there's a Zen principle around carrying water. I don't know if you've ever heard it, but it's about, and it's about relationships and partnerships.

And so as the parable goes is that there's each person is carrying two buckets of water and at any given point in time, one of the two people can put a bucket down, but the other person has to pick it up and carry three buckets. And one person could put both buckets down and that's okay as long as the other person's willing for an extended period of time to carry four buckets. Now, okay, so it's the same principle that you just showed, right? And so there's a Zen parable around carrying water for each other. And that being said, and it creates a nice little image, right? Now, what you've done, and I think you've done really well, is you make it super applied,

like coming home and saying, you create the framework, like, hey, the 100% effort thing, or the 100% resources, and then making it practical about I'm at 10, you're at 90, perfect. And so your work really has had this advantage or not advantage, but an accelerated, I think, whirlwind for people to become attracted to because you're speaking truth about principles. And then you've created very applied strategies for people to practice. And one of those strategies, you know, early in your most recent book is Tara, uh, Tara, but create a one inch by one inch square. That's really good. And put the people on it that like matter most to you. I think, is that the, is that the exercise? Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's your,

it's your square squad. It's, you know, in a world full of kind of criticism and cynicism and fear mongering, you know, you have to let in some feedback about what you're doing because feedback is a really important part of mastery. But there are a million cheap seats where people are just hurling hurtful things and they're not brave people. They're people who they for somehow think their vocation is just tearing down people who are trying to be brave and try new things. And so what I tell people is get a one inch by one inch piece of paper and write down the names of people whose opinions of you matter. And if, and you shouldn't need more than a one inch by one inch piece of paper, it's, you know, five, three, two, six, maybe people. And so I think the hard thing is that people, people believe that being, you know, being defined by what other people think and this whole new kind of, I don't give a shit what anyone

thinks. People think that those are polar opposites, when in truth, they're the exact same thing. Caring what everyone thinks and not caring what anyone thinks are both super problematic. When you care about what everyone thinks, you lose the willingness to be vulnerable and to put yourself out there. When you stop caring about what anyone thinks at all, you lose your capacity for connection because we're hardwired neurobiologically to care about what people think. So our job becomes to get specific on whose opinions matter and find the people who love you, you know, not despite your vulnerability, not despite your imperfection, but because of it, find the people who will say, you know, not despite your vulnerability, not despite your imperfection,

but because of it, find the people who will say, you know what, you're right. The way you showed up in that meeting sucked. It was inappropriate out of your integrity. You got to clean it up and I'll be here supporting you while you do that. And I'll be supporting you again when you're brave again. But right now you do, I, you know, not yes people, but real people whose opinions of you matter and carry it with you. So when you're brave again. But right now you do, I, you know, not yes people, but real people whose opinions of you matter and carry it with you. So when you're, you know, trying to hack into the back end of Amazon to see who left a shitty comment about your book, you think to yourself, you know what? You're not on my list. Think what you want. I've got my list of people whose

opinions matter. So in sport, um, for mental skills, I talk about front-loading. So get the work in ahead of time so you can go play and get free in environments of consequence or stress or whatever. And so that framework that you have is really a front-loading concept where you're saying, okay, let's make sure that we're clear on who matters so that I have the right feedback loops and I can bounce things off the right people. And that's a beautiful practice. And it's eloquent and applied. You've got both of those pieces, I think, in your strategies. And then can I run a concept by you and just see what you think about it?

Totally. Okay. So you've heard of FOMO, fear of missing out. Yeah. You heard of YOLO. Totally. You only live once. Okay. So I want to introduce one and I'm wondering, I'd like to hear what you think about it. So FOPO. Cute.

Yeah. FOPO. Okay. Fear of people's opinion. Oh, yeah. cripplers of potential. And, um, you know, we play it safe and we play it small because we're afraid of what will happen on the other side of the critique of the exposure that happens when people have the opportunity to say thumbs up or thumbs down. Right. And so I'm wondering what you think about FOPO. Oh, I think it's real. I think it's alive. I think it's super scary right now because there are, you know, a lot of my work is, you know, the epigraph for my work, I think for the

last probably five years has been the Theodore Roosevelt quote. Um, it's not the critic who counts the man in the arena. Yeah. So good. Isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. No, it's so good. It's like, you know, it's not the man, it's not the critic who counts. It's not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done it better. The credit belongs to the person who's actually in the arena, whose face is marred with dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs, who comes up short again and again and again, and who in the end, while he may know the triumph of high achievement, at least when he fails, he does so daring greatly. And FOPO to me is exactly

about the cheap seat feedback. Like there are so many people in the world today that will never step foot in the arena that will never ever show up and be seen and heard because they can't control the outcome. Yet they are so free with their opinion around other people's real arena moments, people really stepping in and stepping up. And I think we have to get to this place where that FOPO that you're talking about, we have to see that for what it is. And it's a life changer. Like I have interviewed people in their seventies and eighties that have such profound regret and sorrow and grief about the things they didn't try, the chances they didn't take, that not saying I love you first, because they had

so much fear of what other people would think. And I think it's actually lethal. I think FOPO leads to addiction, depression, lethargy, hopelessness. It's terrible. It's a pandemic. Yeah, I'm with you right there. And especially with social media as an accelerant, it's like the gasoline, the jet fuel on that flame that is, I think it burns so many of us. And so as you read Teddy Roosevelt's, Theodore Roosevelt's, President Roosevelt's insight, I don't know if you've had the chance to read his full 1902 Sarborne Paris. You probably have.

I have. Yeah. Talk about incredible writing. Like, oh my God. Yeah, poetic. writing. Like, oh my God. Where have we lost the ability to actually articulate insights in such a poetic way? And I don't know if he wrote it, you know, presidents tend to have help there, but my goodness, that is. And so the insights that you have, again, Brene, this is where I love your work is that you take an insight, then you make it super applied.

And that's what I really appreciate about your work is you say, okay, listen, so there's the insight man in the arena is the one, you know, the counts basically not the critic. And I, I don't, here's the applied part. I'm not going to listen to people that aren't in the arena. If you're going to take shots and you're in the arena. Okay. I might add you to my square, right? I may be, maybe if this is a good rumble,, I might add you to my square, right? Maybe. Maybe if this is a good rumble, then I might add you to my square. But if you're not in the arena,

listen, I got no time for the noise. I just can't. And I mean, it's one of the, you know, when I came across that quote during a really hard time in my life, the three things that became really clear is one, I'm going to live in the arena. I'm going to choose to be brave. And 400,000 pieces of data that we've collected so far, what I can tell you is I've never met a single person who's been brave with his or her life who has not had their ass kicked. I, you know, if you sign up to be brave, you're going to fall. It's the physics of courage. You know, like you put yourself out there, you're going down.. It's the physics of courage. You know, like you put yourself out there, you're going down. And so to me, it's the question, it's like my mantra every day where you

have your sanctuary moment. When I, when I wake up every morning, the two things I do before I let my foot hit the floor is I say out loud, courage over comfort. Like I'm going to try to choose what's brave over what's comfortable today. And then I say, you know, just grateful for another day to try it. But I, but so the first thing I learned is like, if you're brave, you're going down. And it's really funny because I do a lot of leadership work and people will say, the only people who don't say this honestly, are I do a lot of work with the military, even special forces. They don't push against this and athletes don't push against this but in corporate and you know civic organizations i'll i'll talk about this quote and i'll and

they'll say you know what i'm i want to be brave i am willing to risk falling and i said man you're not hearing me i'm not saying that if you're brave you're going to risk falling i'm saying if you're brave enough often enough you're going to get your ass kicked. Mm hmm. And to go to your front loading paradigm, one of the things that emerged from this research that we just did on courage building is that. who are taught how to get back up after a fall are braver because they believe in their ability to get back up when it happens. Like it's like for some weird reason we don't front load bounce. Like we try to teach people how to get back up when they're face down,

covered in sweat and blood and dust in that arena floor. And that is a terrible time to teach people how to get back up. Their perspective is wonky. They can't hear you. They feel beat up. So when we onboard people in our organization, it's like we're super glad you're here. Here's your ID. Here's how the insurance works.

And here's what failure is going to feel like. And here's what we're going to expect you to do when it happens. And we will expect you to fail because we will expect you to be trying new things. Like you got a front load rising. Okay. No one does it alone. And I want to share a couple sponsors that are making this show possible. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus.

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FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Let's jump right back into the conversation. Yeah. And you know what happens? I think what I've learned is I'm nodding my head during exactly what you're saying, especially on the con or the comparison between special ops and athletics, elite athletics for sure. And the difference between corporate worlds and in the corporate worlds is a great phrase that emerged about 12 years ago, fail fast, fail forward, fail often, but it's complete bullshit. It's not real because you know what, if you fail and you fail fast and you fail, we say that they say that, but at the point of failure, there's a noose around your neck that you didn't

realize prior to the failure. And so as soon as you see one person that's failed and then everyone else realizes that, Oh my God, they had a noose around their neck. Oh, Whoa, they're out of here. Look at that. Like they're not included in the meetings anymore. That it sends a ripple effect of what's real. So the language, and I think you'll appreciate this from like your understanding of addiction and codependency is that when language and words, I'm sorry, when language and actions don't match, there's something crazy taking place. And that's what we find in corporate cultures is that the language doesn't match the action. And it's not that they don't want the, most of the people I've worked with that are fortune 50, like real game shifters in corporate worlds is that they want

the best. They really do. But there's some sort of disconnect between the body of the, uh, of the organization being able to be as nimble as some of the leadership would hope. And I don't want to be Pollyannish because you know, there are, there are tired tyranny, you know, tyrants in the world. But, uh, anyways, I know you had some thoughts there. No, I mean, I just, I'm just shaking my head crazy. Yes. I think everything you said is exactly true. It's what I witnessed all the time. Um, and I do think I actually, this is my personal belief, probably based on my own faith, but I do believe in the inherent good of people. Um, I do think they want the best. I do believe that people by and large are doing

the very best they can with the tools they have at the time. I think we can all get better and grow. But I try to work from a very – an assumption of generosity toward people. I do think there are some tyrants and scary despots. But I think what makes everyone – I think what gives everyone the capacity for tyranny is fear. But I think what you're saying about the fail fast movement is just kind of heartbreakingly true. I think in Rising Strong, I said, what did I call it? Oh, gold plating, gold plating grit.

Like they're just putting a gold plate on this idea that, you know, gritty failure is OK. But there are very few companies that say, you know what, this was, and I've been in a few, so I have a lot of hope, but this was a failure. This is not working. What are the key learnings? How do we embed what we've learned and how do we move forward? There are a handful of companies that do that. And I think with machine learning and AI, those will be the folks still standing in the next 10 years. And those leaders do need to demonstrate, this is now back to your practice or your insights, they do need to demonstrate in ways their own vulnerability so that people can say, oh, okay. So actually you're back, you're backing

up, you're walking the walk, talking to talk that mistake you make mistakes too. Oh, okay. All right. So then that means, so what you're really talking about is mistakes are okay, but there's a certain type of mistake, right? So making a mistake and learning from the mistake, that process is important. So innovative mistakes are important, right? But the same mistakes are not, you can't keep making the same mistake. You don't, you can't, you can't hang. You can't figure it out here. If you're going't keep making the same mistake. You don't, you can't, you can't hang. You can't figure it out here. If you're going to keep making the same fricking mistake, either you don't have the capacity or the willingness to look within to get the insight. And both of those don't work. But here's the irony in companies where there is no vulnerability, where there is no ownership, that's where they keep making the same mistake, because no one's willing to dig in and talk about it, shine some light on it, pull it apart and

figure out what's going on. And so it's, you know, it's funny, because I used to spend a lot of time, you know, coming off the research I just came off of for dare to lead seven years studying kind of really top performing leaders across every, from athletes to fortune 10 CEOs, civic leaders, just across the board, asking one question, given the complexity that we're living in right now and what the future looks like, what's the one thing that you're going to be looking for in leaders? Like who's going to be still standing as a leader in the next five years. And it was the first time I'd ever done research where the answer saturated across every single participant. And without question, people didn't even hesitate. They just said, courage, we need braver leaders. We need more courageous cultures. And so we set about to figure out what is courage, what does it look like, and what are

the skills and behaviors behind it? You know, not this gauzy kind of aspirational be brave thing, but what is the real learning? And what we found is that there are four skill sets of courage, rumbling with vulnerability, living into your values, braving trust, and learning to rise, learning how to get back up after failure. And I used to spend so much time trying to convince people that vulnerability is an essential part to courage until I was at Fort Bragg one day, and I was working with some special forces troops, and I asked this question. I said, the definition of vulnerability is uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. That's what it means to be vulnerable.

Can anyone here give me a single example of courage from your life or that you've witnessed in someone else? One example of courage that did not require uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. And there was just not a chance. It was just not a chance. One guy. Yeah. Until one guy stood up and said, ma'am, three tours, there is no courage without vulnerability. And so it's like,

and this whole skillset of rumbling with vulnerability ended up being half the book because it's not about disclosure. It's not about oversharing. It's about not tapping out when things get hard and uncomfortable and awkward. That is the razor's edge for me. That's it. That, that, that moment. And I think when you just said it, I'm now, this is your life's work. I bet you could feel it. You know exactly what that, yeah. Okay. Me too. Right. And there's an animation that happens. That for me is the razor's edge. What are you going to do is the challenge I

have to, you know, the, the alpha of alphas, um, in the performing and thinking world, what are you going to do on the razor's edge? Cause they've already organized their life to run to the razor's edge. They have fundamentally, there's no hacks. There's no seven steps. There's no secrets. There's no tips. There's no tricks. They fundamentally organize their life to run to the razor's edge because they know in those moments, that's where they reveal the good stuff. Do I have the capabilities and capacities to adjust the pivot, to flex, to bend, to be strong, to stay in it? Right. And there's a phrase that musicians use and dancers use that I love. My wife is a dancer. And like they, when, when you're, you're fitting in the

music and so it fits. And that to me is like what I think. So people talk about being present. Yes. Okay. But it's not like your mind is either in the past or the present that's for psychology today or some sort of, I don't want to knock on that. That's like some sort of reader's digest version. Yeah. So it's like, do you fit in the moment with the expansiveness of it? And it's this mind boggling, you know, Zen riddle to fit in the expansive moment, but that's what it's about. And so it, there's a razor's edge to it and you can, you can get cut by it. You can leave because you don't want to get cut or you can stay in and see if you can dance on the razor's edge. And that experience requires incredible conviction, but it also requires a decision. It's really about choice,

isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. You got to make the decision that this is how I'm going to, but you can't make the decision if you don't know that it's valuable because you know, when pain is bigger than purpose, we give into pain. Our DNA is designed for it. And so, yeah, I mean, yeah, you're fighting against history there. Yeah. So how do you help? Okay. So let's, let's do a gender thing here is that, and correct me if I'm wrong, cause maybe I'm working from an old framework, but we played in different sandboxes. You know, and even if we played in the same sandboxes, I'm talking about just men and women here, boys and girls, that we were treated differently in the same sandbox. And, you know, if you as a young child were going to grab the toys and organize a game, you were pushy.

If I was going to do the toys and organize a game, you're pushy. If I was going to do it, I was a leader. And so like we were, we're rewarded for different things. And so I, I didn't learn emotion as a child. I didn't understand it as a young adult. And I've had to figure out as a man, how to feel deeply. And it wasn't really until age 30 that it started to crack open just a little bit for me. And I'm, this is the field I'm in. And so I'm studying it. I'm feeling it. I'm trying, I'm doing the internal work. You can't graduate my PhD program without doing, I think it was 55 hours of internal work. Yeah. And so like, but so there's a disadvantage is what I'm saying, like a radical disadvantage. And I'm not sure.

I'm not sure that when you speak about courage and vulnerability, that men say, yeah, I'm going to be vulnerable now. You know what they usually say? Because I work with, I mean, I work with tons of men. They usually say, yes, yes, but I can't do that. You know why? Because if you think about traditionally, you think about the role shame plays in being vulnerable and you think about very traditional masculine norms and feminine norms. And so masculine norms are about emotional stoicism, primacy of work, emotional control. And so for men, you know, for masculine norms, the big shame trigger is do not be perceived as weak. And so

that whole thing of not being perceived as weak really gets in the way of being vulnerable. And for women, because, you know, when I was trying to, you know, organize the Sam, you know, assign roles and do everything. And I was called bossy or pushy or a note at all. Um, for women, those norms are be perfect, do it all right. Take care of everyone else, but never show like you're exerting effort, like always just be perfect and easy. And so for us being vulnerable is the shame trigger around that is I'm not perfect. And so, you know, you know, so many women are like, I can't be vulnerable because it shows imperfection. Men are like, I can't be vulnerable because it shows weakness, but everyone in their gut, I mean, in my books, and I think even the Ted talk has been translated

into 40 something languages. This is the most universal across culture, across country thing in our hearts. What we're, what we know is I just want to be seen and loved and valued. And unless I'm my true self, unless I am vulnerable, which, you know, the easiest way to think about vulnerability is the willingness to show up and be seen when you can't control the outcome. Which is every, this is why it's so easy for athletics really, because to, to move into expressing potential or the higher levels of performance is that the outcome is never controlled. It is always the by-product of being in it as long as

you possibly can. And even in elite sport, we see people check out as soon as the score seems like it's too big, you know, the deficit's too big, or they sometimes people do check out pregame when they know that they're going against an all pro and they defer or, you know, or, or bow. And as opposed to showing up and being in the, in the mud and being in the thick of it. So like, it still does happen. I'm not saying that they, that group has it all figured out, but those that excel and can play the long game, they have that ability to dance right on that razor's edge and vulnerability, you know, help me if I'm off on this. It doesn't mean weakness. Vulnerability means the openness and willingness to stay in it longer than you did before.

Right? Yeah, totally. It's awful that it's one of the most, I think, dangerous myths in the world that vulnerability is weakness because there's just no evidence of that. You cannot get to courage without walking right through vulnerability. But you will be hurt. You, you will, when, when you are. Oh, for sure.

Yeah. You will. And in, in love relationships, you'll be hurt. And also in performing context, you'll feel hurt. And so, okay. So let's, let's thin slice it there and let's take it out of performing worlds and into, you know, uh, living rooms and, or I don't know, people are trying to, I don't know, like wherever vulnerability happens in relationships, you early in relationships,

you have choices. Do I say it or do I not say it? And if you say it, the true stuff that you don't really want to say that you don't say very often, it's difficult to say it can come back around later. And so how do you help people become skilled at when and how? So what I would say to people is you share with people who've earned the right to hear your story. You share with people with whom you have a relationship that can bear the weight of the story. You don't use vulnerability and sharing as a litmus test to see how strong something is, because that's dishonest in a big way. But when we asked people to give us examples of vulnerability, when I think I was writing Dearing Greatly, it's everything you're saying. People said, vulnerability is the first date after my divorce. It's trying to get pregnant after my second

miscarriage. It's saying, I love you first. It's sitting with my wife who has stage four breast cancer and talking about plans for my toddler. It's not smiling when I'm experiencing sadness or uncomfortableness, right? No, no, it's, it is. I mean, and there's nothing braver than showing up like that. There's nothing braver. Okay. Now you, you, you said you share vulnerability. You said people have to earn the right for it. What, what does that's cool. What does that mean? Well, because people always ask me what comes first, vulnerability or trust. I need to, I have to trust somebody in order to be vulnerable with them, but I can't build trust with someone unless I'm somewhat vulnerable. And I think the best way to think about it is vulnerability and trust are a slow stacking of we meet, I'm myself, I may share a little bit, I see if we build trust

around that. I mean, it's a slow stacking. I don't think vulnerability is, hey, nice to meet you. Here's the darkest thing that's ever happened to me. And I'm going to see if you stick around after hearing that. Because a good, boundaried, healthy person will be like, hell no, I just met you. Here's the darkest thing that's ever happened to me. And I'm going to see if you stick around after hearing that because a good boundary healthy person will be like, hell no, I just met you. This felt really inappropriate. I'm out. It's not, we don't use vulnerability to test people. Vulnerability is about showing up and being authentic, just being ourselves. And we trust people with information that's important to us over time as we build trust. And so I don't think you can uncouple trust and vulnerability. And I think they grow together. And I think they can also die together.

I mean, there's nothing worse than sharing something vulnerable with someone and then they have them use it against you. And now one final word from our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft.

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And they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code Mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash Finding Mastery. And with that, let's jump right back into this conversation. What if there's like a family dynamic and one party doesn't want to be vulnerable. And they just basically have said, I don't feel safe.

I just don't feel safe because of critiques, snide remarks, some sort of criticism. Like, I don't feel like I want to put myself in that situation. What would you recommend in family dynamics? Yeah. So if you were saying that to me, if I said, I don't, Michael, I don't understand why you just don't open up about this more. I know what happened at your job or whatever must have been really hard. And you say, I don't feel comfortable sharing it with you. I don't, I don't trust you enough to share it with you or I don't. And then I think I would come back and say, our relationship is really important to me and I want to be a safe space for you to talk about

these things with, and I want to be able to talk about them with you. Can you tell me what behavior specifically that I'm doing or how I'm showing up that I could work on because I'm willing to work on it and build that trust. If you're willing to work on it with me, there you go. And, and then I would wait to see what the behaviors are. And if you say, well, no, it's nothing that you're doing. Then I would say, then I would probably just say that makes me sad. And if there's something I can do to make you feel safer or build more trust, I'm willing to do it, but it's hard being held responsible when I don't understand what I could

be doing differently. And then there's an accountability piece as well, right? So you started with accountability, like, okay, what am I doing? And if the person says, I'm not doing that, that's not what I'm, oh my gosh, that's what you think I'm doing? Then it doesn't actually change. It feels like. No, if it was reversed and we were role-playing this and you said, you asked me that question, I said, well, to be honest with you, you're really judgmental. When I share something hard that maybe you would have handled a different way, I don't feel empathy. I feel judgment.

And you're like, I don't judge you at all. And, you know, and I'm like, well, I really feel it. And then I, if I were you, I would just say, tell me what you hear. Can you give me an example? Not like prove it, but like, can you give me an example? Yeah. So it's coming from a place. Yeah.

It's coming from a place like, uh, where both people want to do better. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. And I think also if I said this to you and I was trying my best and you're like, no, I'm just not gonna trust you. And I'd say, I hear you. I get that's your choice, but please make sure that you hear me when I say you're making that choice. I'm willing to show up and try new ways of being in this relationship with you because I care about you and it matters, but I can't go on nothing. Yeah. Good. Yeah. That's really cool. Cause that happens. That's a big part of family dynamics, right? Extended family for sure. For sure.

Yeah, that's brilliant. Okay. So let's put a pin in this for a minute and then go back. What was early life like for you? What was it like growing up? Middle class, lower economic status, upper economic? What was it like for you growing up? Yeah, middle class upbringing. I'm the oldest of four. Parents had a really kind of rough marriage when it was good. It was amazing. And when it was bad, like duck. So it could be pretty volatile. They both came from hard families, kind of working class families, but really great people who just, you know, were doing the best they could with what they had at the time. They divorced when I was 20. I learned a lot about, I learned, I was, I learned how to be a very hopeful person. I had learned a lot of agency. I believed I could probably do anything. How'd you learn that? Because, you know, my dad, you know, if we said, I want a tree house, it's not like they called the tree house construction company. They were like, you know, like what people in my

neighborhood do where they get like a three story carpeted, like AC tree house. They were, my dad was like, well, you better walk on over to ACE hardware and see how much the lumber is and how much it's going to cost and talk to some people. And there's some hammers in the garage and it was kind of like there there was a it was very in a way very growth mindset for us like we were shown the relationship between effort and output um so and that's good and i think on the downside i was you know i was raised with a healthy dose of shame like my parents use shame as a parenting tool pretty commonly, just like their parents did with them. So was there like an ethnic or a religious connection to the shame or was that more systemic, like family, you know, dysfunctional stuff? I mean, fifth generation, Texan, German,

American, like we don't get sick. We're not weak. We push through, we suck it up. We soldier on. If your ankle's broken, the best thing to do is walk it out. You so, but you're just bringing something up is that at a young age. So I lived, my family early days lived in a farm and it was not a working farm. It wasn't, there was, it wasn't like this luxurious thing, but it was like, we're out in the sticks in Virginia until like third, fourth grade. And so, yeah, there was the idea to build a tree house. And this is how I, this is how I was raised. And so my dad and the neighbor's dad, we found the tree and, and, uh, they, they, they were kind of where I was young and I was trying to help hammer this, that, and hold the hammer really was more about like watching them lift the heavy lumber, but part of it. Right. And so there's that industrial industrious way of, um, making things happen with their, uh, with their hands. And so I got bored and the two dads were probably drinking some beers and having a good time

and they were doing their thing. And me and the other kid decided to have a little vine fight. Now, who has vine fights? I don't know. But we're ripping vines off of the tree and whipping each other with it. Now, the important part of that story is the vine that we chose was a poison ivy. So that is how I grew up, right? Is that, yeah, we're going to work hard.

We're going to build something. We're going to be creative. And there was this freedom, like the amazing freedom, like no one's watching. And so I got- No one's watching. No one's watching. I've got stories for days about what it was like to be a little kid with home with like whip marks and the next day to figure out it was poison ivy. And the two of us just, there wasn't an ounce covered. Like

there wasn't a patch not covered by the oil. So yeah. You know what? I, I, I grieve that for my kids because I was a free range. I was a free range. I mean, I remember, Oh, we had swim team practice like at six, six 30 in the morning during the summer. And my mom would put ink, uh, what was it? Zinc oxide on my nose.

And she would give me a dollar and say, be back by dinner. And that's like, that's like seven o'clock. That's like, I would leave on my like banana seat bicycle for 13 hours in the summer. Yes. Yeah.

So I say that to my wife. That was my growing up. By the way, this is awful. I had a banana seat bike too. Now, boys were not supposed to have banana seat bikes back then. And so it was like, talk about hillbilly. It was great. And so, but now my wife says, no, no, no.

Things have changed. And we live in a suburb city of Los Angeles and says, no, no, no, things have changed. And we live in a suburb city of Los Angeles and like, no, no, no, things have changed. And I, and they have, you know, there's play dates and I don't know, it feels like it's a little bit more dangerous. I don't, I don't know. We try to be, we try to be a little free range. Like if we go to the lake or, you know, we let our kids try to do a little stuff, but yeah, I remember like my brother always coming home with poison Ivy or coming home with little stuff. But yeah, I remember like my brother always coming home with poison ivy or coming home with chiggers or ticks or I mean like, oh my God.

Yeah. We were country too. Don't worry. Okay. All right. There you go. So what was your, I'm going back to like early days before high school. What was your bedroom like?

Before high school? Yeah. Because this is going to like give me a hint of early framework stuff. I don't know. It was, I think, I think it was a lot of plaid. I don't remember. Neat, organized, a mess, artistic, structured, straight lines, you know, like all of the above, sometimes neat, sometimes messy, structured.

I like to organize yeah and then during high school did it change much yes i had like yeah i'm being bagged chairs i think there was maybe i can confirm nor deny there was probably pot hidden in it um yeah i had bright yellow walls and uh toucan comforter so you you took risks at a young age you're a risk taker oh i still am still am okay and then that risk taking is a character value for you for what reason i can't even it's like it's so it's like asking a fish to describe water what happens in your life if you were when you play it safe and small? What's the point?

Survival. No. I don't leap for the perfect landings. I leap for the feeling in the air. I've got a high tolerance for risk, even with my work. I don't feel, I can't feel in the music when I'm not stretching a little bit. When you leap for the feeling in the air and you land and twist your knee and you can't get up and people are looking at you and not helping. Right. So like that type of, yep. Do you have a story that comes to mind with that?

Like public professionally, I should say, or anytime in your life. It's interesting because I, on the, on the briefing sheet that I got for the podcast, it said, how do I define mastery? And so I've been thinking about that for the last couple of days. And I think it goes back to, to, I always feel like mastery for me, I have mastery in areas where I have the confidence to stay curious, keep learning and keep jumping. Like mastery to me has nothing to do with completion. It has nothing to do with control over our, you know, final accomplishment. Like I feel like I have mastery in areas where

I'm still willing to try something new to the point of feeling nauseous. Mastery just feels like the point of a lot of things that I do. And that me, you know, like people looking and the hurt me and not being able to stand up quite right is just, I think, part of mastery for me. Like I'm a pretty effective speaker. And a lot of people say like, you've got such mastery over the speaking skill, but I still try things all the time, new things. And sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. To me, curiosity and risk is the ultimate indication of mastery.

I love it. Okay. We're right at the end of this conversation and I feel like I could do this for another 10 hours, but is there a word that cuts to the center of what you understand most? Courage. And is there a word that cuts to the center of what you do the best? Words. That's cool. You're the first person to say that and is there a word that cuts to the center of who you are grounded okay so there's a there's a poem that's been guided that has guided me and i've got a handful of poems that i like to give to people man in in the Arena is one of them. And then The Invitation by Araya Mountain Dreamer is another. And it opens up with, it doesn't interest me what you do for

a living. I want to know what you ache for. And if you dare to dream of meeting your heart's longing. So what is it that you ache for? A world where people can understand and be in their pain rather than taking it out on other people. Second stanza, it doesn't interest me how old you are. I want to know if you'll look, I'm sorry, I want to know if you'll risk looking like a fool for love, for your dream, for the adventures of being alive. And Brene, you have capsulated that in a really cool way. So, yeah. So thank you for your time. Yeah. And thank you for your insights.

And it's just been a joy to watch your work and have this conversation as well. So thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah. And where can we find you? Where can we follow along? BreneBrown.com is the best place.'m also on you know instagram and linkedin and facebook best place to get your book uh any of your local booksellers and so congratulations on your most

recent book you know and um obviously all the ones that came before so yeah pleasure pleasure pleasure so i hope you got it was great. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. Take care. Thanks. Bye. Okay. Bye. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of finding mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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