Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Brian Mackenzie, Human Performance Specialist

Episode Date: December 19, 2018

This week’s conversation is with Brian Mackenzie, an expert in the development and application of custom protocols to optimize human health and performance.His work harnesses and integrates respiratory, movement, strength and endurance-based training approaches to elicit positive results.His protocols have been used to accelerate and raise both mental and physical performance in world-class Olympic and professional athletes, top executives, and elite military operators, as well as to improve the health for everyday people to those suffering from various chronic illnesses.Along with innovating the endurance, strength and conditioning paradigm, he has studied altitude, heat & cold exposure and breath work.Brian co-founded and created Power Speed Endurance (PSE), an online programming, coaching and educational platform that specializes in movement & skill development in sport.He also co-authored the books Power Speed Endurance, NYTimes Best Seller UnBreakable Runner, and most recently UnPlugged._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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this time and time again, I can downregulate myself with breathing. I can, you know, I can change my performance with breathing. Okay, welcome back or welcome to if you're new to this podcast, the Finding Mastery Podcast. And I'm Michael Gervais by trade and training. I'm a sport and performance psychologist, which means that I spent most of my life fortunate enough to stand on the shoulders of great researchers and great scientists on the science of how the best in the world work and then been fortunate enough to create and explore the frontier with some of the best thinkers and doers in the world and create an understanding of how people become their very best. And that is part of this conversation. This podcast is to explore how those thinkers and doers work.

Like how do they organize their internal life and their external world to maximize their pursuit in life? And we also want to dig to understand the mental skills that they use to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those

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I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Okay. This week's conversation is with Brian McKenzie and he's flat out an expert in the development and application of optimizing human health and performance. And he does it through breathing. His work harnesses and integrates

the respiratory system, movement, strength, and endurance-based training approaches to elicit positive results. And the stuff that he's designed has really been used to help both mental and physical performance with lots of different elite performers that he and I talked about. Olympians all the way through professional athletes, top executives. He's in the military frame as well. And this is something that's not reserved just for those people. And I'll remind us right now that best in the world are not that different than you and I, you know, that they, they have the same DNA, same makeup, same stuff that many of us do. They've just figured out a

way to organize their internal and external world to maximize their stuff. And each of us have that thing. We have the capacity to do that and to figure out what is our crown jewel, what is the thing in our DNA that allows us to see and understand and do things with great ease. And then we just take that and run as far as we can. So one of the strategies that he has is to really understand the respiratory system and how that impacts almost everything that we do. And Brian co-founded and created Power Speed Endurance, PSE. It's an online program, coaching and educational platform that's really centered around skill development. And I know him from one of his main thrusts, which is called The Art of Breath.

So I really want to encourage you to check that out. He's also a writer, New York Times bestseller, Unbreakable Runner, and most recently, the book called Unplugged. So this conversation is coming from a really authentic, deep, rich place. And there's a soul that Brian has. There's a wild man inside of him. And there's somebody that's harnessed through breath, through insight, through endurance, the inner makings of what it takes to go the distance. So I'm stoked to introduce his way of thinking. And I know that there's so many applied gems in this

that applying some of the stuff that we talk about will definitely make a difference for improvement and enhancement. And so with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Brian McKenzie. Brian, how are you? I'm very good, Michael. Yourself? Yeah. Yeah. Great. And you know, I say that and I'm laughing because I've been watching what you've been doing lately. And when the last time that we saw each other, like it was a great experience. It was at the, you know, we're at the Hurley headquarters. We're doing Tim Brown's masterclass on surfing. It was awesome. Very much. Was it two days later? What was the date on that? I can't remember, but, um, I know the date on the accident, um, which was May 26th. So it was very shortly thereafter. Um, and on May 26, your day,

your life pivoted like in an instant, just like blink of an eye um i was i was playing on a jungle gym i was playing tag with my three nephews who were like 7 10 and 12 and they were like on a park in a jungle gym at a park at a kid's school on a jungle gym and I was running from my oldest nephew who was it and I was running up a ladder that had a gap in it up top with a bar above it to where a kid under the age of 10 fits perfectly fine but an adult at 6'1 does not and I didn't see it and I was trying to get to an upper deck and I uh careened the the bar with the top of my head and so I compressed uh which instantly knocked me out and created a contusion on my spinal cord at c34 um so I knocked out at about seven feet up dropped to the ground landed on the ground and I woke up and I could not move. And,

uh, so I had a fairly significant injury. Uh, what I thought was potentially a broken neck at first, um, but turned out to be a contusion. And so about 20 minutes, 15, 20 minutes later. So I started to get some very sharp pains in my hands, uh, pins and needles, uh, neurogenics, neurogenic pains. And about 40 hours, I got my legs back the same way. And then I learned to walk again. And how long did it take you to learn to walk again? They cleared me from the hospital at about like, you know, like a kid at the age of two, you know, like how they walk. Um, because I needed to get this because I have Stan covered by Stanford insurance because my wife works at Stanford. So I wanted to get down to Stanford cause I was in

Santa Rosa. Um, and I wanted to interview some surgeons there, but it was fairly, uh, evident that I needed pretty fast surgery to free up space in my, in my, for my spinal cord. Um, or I was just a walking time bomb. Um, and so I, you know, it took me, I would say two weeks to kind of get pretty normal walking gait back. You know, and then I had surgery about, I think it was like three weeks after the initial injury. And then I had another six weeks until like I got the neck brace off. And, you know, I still have some slight numbness in my legs and feet, but nothing major. And that's just the nature of spinal cord injuries is your nervous system when it's injured can take a significant amount of time to heal. And what was the actual injury? Like, what did you need surgery for? I needed to, I, I, I chose to, as there's many opinions here, but based on about, I'd say 10 or

so interviews, I needed to have an anterior disectomy of my C3-4 disc. So the disc that sits between C3 and 4 and I needed C3-4 to be fused. Okay. So anterior front. So they went in front, they went into your throat area. Yep. Then they removed my, uh, disc from C3-4. They gutted that out kind of. And then, um, they put in a prosthetic with some cadaver bones in there and then they basically tacked on a uh little you know bolt or or spacer up front to hold that together um so that it would fuse so that it holds in fusion and um you know that was the surgery which i you know the the actual spinal the actual spinal surgery was perfectly fine. But the actual throat being moved over to the side and having a breathing tube stuck down it, I still, to this day, I have some residual stuff from my throat.

It's almost like a mild sore throat or inflamed throat to some degree. Okay. So it's three levels or was it three, four? It was just three, four, one level, one level. Okay. So, and that was, that's considered, um, I'm assuming micro disectomy. Yes. Okay. All right. So I love the complications that you talk about the throat. Cause like the only way I can relate, which is not even close to it is like having my wisdom teeth removed and you know, like the damn throat, like it's, that was, that was way worse than any pain that was happening in the back of my, my, my jaw. Yeah. So I remember that too. Yeah. So I don't know if it's the way they rip it out

or what happens, but well, I mean, cartilage doesn't like to be moved. Um, as my friend, Jill Miller likes to say, um, you know, she's like cartilage does not like to be moved. And the fact that they move your throat like that, you know, the, the, the reason they go anterior is because they just don't have to cut through a bunch of muscle, a bunch of muscle, right? Muscle. Yeah. You know, because they go through the back, then they got to cut through a bunch of stuff, which means you are definitely immobile for quite some time. And, you know, it just prolongs the recovery period. And some people react or, you know, have, I, I, I assume stiffer throats than others, but you know what, I, I, I'm not, I shouldn't be heart like get going on about this.

Cause it's, I mean, and, and the, you know, the totality of everything that was nothing. Yeah. Right. Right. For sure. Okay. So let's, how are you talking about it? Because I don't, I don't want to ask questions.

Oh no, I'm totally open about it. I mean, you know, I think, you know, at first it was, you know, this was, I mean, look, it's a terrifying experience to wake up on the ground and be like, oh, I can't move my arms or legs, um, and, and not freak out. I mean, I'm initially, I'm, I'm guessing there was an initial freak out. Um, but I remember quite vividly because it was very difficult for me to breathe because I landed on the ground on my back, um, from high up. And you know, when you do that, like, you know, especially as like a kid, like you can't breathe, you're like,

right. Well, I didn't have any feeling. So I literally couldn't breathe. Right. So I was just like, Oh my gosh, you can't breathe. So I needed to initiate my breathing myself. And with the amount of work that I've done around breathing and respiration, you know, it's like, okay, I understand what I need to do. If I start speeding up the breathing, I'm probably going to induce more of a physiological response of like, you know, freaking out, um, versus slow, deep control breathing. And then let's assess the situation, which I was like, Hey, get Aaron, you know, to my nephews, which is my wife, um, you know, just get Aaron. And, and they were like, what's wrong, what's wrong. And I'm like, they had no idea. They thought I did like a backflip off this thing,

like on purpose. Um, which is weird, but weird. But well, it kind of makes sense. Like you are you have like the superhero aura about you, you know, like you've got that way where you've done a deep dive into the inner dimensions. Right. And I'm not talking about the psychology, but I'm talking about the impact that breathing has on physiology and psychology. And right. And so, but you've also got this risk-taking, you know, exploratory frontier driving thin herd type of way about yourself. And so I could see your nephews going, Oh, uncle Brian did a double backflip, you know? Oh,

he must've slipped. Oh, he'll get up, you know? like I can, I, okay. So I can get their experience, but I want, okay. You understand the breathing mechanisms more than 99.9% of the world. You're a world leader, world thinker about the impact that breathing has on physiology and psychology and a la performance, human performance and whether that's a living performance and, or some sort of sport or musical or artistic performance. So that being said, and I just want to make sure I'm being respectful. Are you okay to talk about that moment, that moment that you came to? And so for me, it's terrifying. That's why one of the reasons early days, I've always wanted to have this conversation with you on this podcast about the science and art of breathing, which we will get to.

But then watching what happened to you and knowing that you're okay to talk about that moment that you came to and you couldn't move. What happened? I recognize that my life probably changed like, like in a way that I didn't necessarily want. Not that we all want, want change, but, but I, I wanted, I knew I, that I was in a pretty terrible situation, but I also understood that I've got a wife and I've got a family. Like I don't have kids, but I, you know, I've been, I've got parents and I've got siblings and I've got these, you know, I've got people around me and that what was the most efficient way I could get to a, a possibility of making it less burdensome, burdensome of what it was that potentially

was happening. And was that while you're on your back? Like, was that the first two seconds? That was probably in the first, I would say minute, you know? All right. So I initially had to like get my breathing going, um, because I landed pretty hard. Um, you know, and then it was shit. Um, you know, excuse me, but it was like, dang, man, I, uh, I I'm, I'm pretty messed up. Um, and I've had stingers before, and this was beyond a stinger. So I, you know, I, I was like, okay, this I'm, I'm life just changed. How do I make this not only easier on my family and my wife, but how do I make this like a more efficient process for myself?

I know what PT, you know, I basically understand a lot of, you know, the psychology behind PTSD, trauma, et cetera. I've done enough work in these places to kind of map those things out. And I knew that I didn't want to hang on to things. I wanted done enough work in these places to kind of map those things out. And I knew that I didn't want to hang on to things. I wanted to deal with things. And so it was like, okay, what's the situation here? We are Aaron. I think my broke my neck. Um, we're going to need, and she's like, like she was calm as a bomb, but she literally was like, wow. You know? And, and, you know, I could see it, but I, I also knew that I was kind of, I, in that moment took control of the situation and was assessing it. And then I, it was, I mean,

I was very fortunate that the, there was a fire department literally down the street and they were five minutes away. Um, so within five minutes, there was fire department there and they had me on, you know, a gurney and they had me, you know, strapped down. And then, you know, they, they were walking me through, they, I mean, they cut off everything on me, you know, and then they, you know, my hands started to move. And basically the guy started reassuring me that, Hey, this may not be as bad as you think it is.

The fact that you've got movement and you're feeling your hands right now is not what should be happening if your neck's broken. So, so that, that made, that gave me some hope. So, you know, and, and I don't want to take away, cause I've got, I know people who, who have gone through this, but did break their necks or did break their backs and they don't walk and they don't, you know, they don't have access to things. Um, and so I, I, I think I was very fortunate, but I prepared for, for the worst of this situation by accepting the fact that it was a very difficult situation and that I was going to have to make a new game out of life to a large degree. And yeah, late. Okay. Okay. That statement is really powerful because that's in the moment

of crisis. You said you had the wherewithal to make an accurate assessment and then the internal volition to say, there's a new game and I'm going to make the most out of it. And mixed in with that, you also had the awareness that you needed to take care of your loved ones. So do I have that right? Yes. Okay. So all of that, um, wrapped up in, let's call it a two minute to 20 minute window, like somewhere in there I'm making up like, you know, like, okay. What prepared you? How old are you, Brian? 43. What prepared you in the 43 years prior to that, to get you to that moment, to be honest,

to have the wherewithal to take care of your loved ones. And then the third component, which is to see it in a way that was gonna you're gonna use this to build like what were the important milestones or shaping experiences that led you to be able to think that way is that is that your dog yeah yeah what kind of dog uh i've got a pit bull and we've got a kind of a hunting dog mix. Who's the loud one? Cool. I would, I mean, I'd be dishonest if I didn't say everything, you know, and yeah, I mean,

what I'm not a professional athlete, but I work with a lot of professional athletes. So my life is not about training for a sport. It's about training for life. And I think that I was open to the situation that that was exactly what I was training for. And, and versus, you know, oh my God, everything's, you know, over, I can't do what I want to do. And, and, you know, all, you know, all of that stuff starts to fall apart where my career's over, this is over. My career wouldn't end if I was if I if I wasn't walking again, or I wasn't moving again, right? I would still be doing what I'm doing, except in another way. And that's what I was looking at instantly. And I think that's the the nature of

my world is risk taking. And that is, you know, I've done that since I was a kid. But, you know, obviously, now it's evolved to a large degree. And I think the fact that I was like, okay, so this is just another, you know, obstacle that just got thrown, or it's just this other, it's a left turn in the road that I was not expecting. And, you know, that I think we fall, you know, and I talk about this all the time. I talk about this crap all the time, like when I'm, when I'm teaching or I'm lecturing or whatever. And it's like, you know, we, we, we forget that nature doesn't care. We forget that nature is not there to like, like we're so removed from nature so much that that's where we have to go in order. That's where we take vacations, right? Like we go get removed from nature so much that that's where we have to go in order.

That's where we take vacations, right? Like we go get, we go off and, you know, mountain bike or, or, or trail runner paddle or, you know, in nature, right? And, and we do these things and we forget that the biggest part of all of that is, is in the blink of an eye, it all changes. And we want, we've constructed a world where, you know, rightfully so to a large degree, not everything can change in the blink of an eye, it all changes. And we've constructed a world where, rightfully so to a large degree, not everything can change in the blink of an eye. And we can look at, you know, most of us are looking at a pretty long life.

But we forget that life's not about this long thing. It's about this thing that's this moment. And to not experience that moment is not something I didn't want to do. I really wanted to, I think I really grasped that and I'm like, shoot, like I really need to experience this for what it is versus what it's not and surrounding myself with trauma about it. And I, because I've done the latter, I've done that before. And, and that was years of unwinding of crap and the crap that we all pick up along the way, you know, like as kids, regardless of how we were brought up, you know, into the world that we exist in. Right. Like there's not necessarily a bear around the turn at every, you know, when we're walking through town, you know,

and that's how it used to be, but that's not how it is now. And so, but yet we've got these things and we work all day and we, we stress ourselves out more and we do this stuff. And so the littlest thing sets us off. And then we go onto Instagram or Facebook and we talk about it and get angry about it and all this stuff. And I just didn't want, I wanted to experience the moment. And I think that's what I, what I was really trained to do was, was, you know, if I can sit there and talk about it, I better, I better be ready to do that myself. And that was that moment. I saw it as an opportunity. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust

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And then what were some of the things that you experienced as a young kid? You talked about risk-taking. You talked about basically being ready for the unpredictable. And, you know, what were their key experiences? And I know it's everything. It is a combination of everything. But if we can reduce it down to the big, big rocks to get in the container, you know, what are a couple stories or people or experiences that you had early days that could capture what prepared you? And I'll just share this with you is that what you're describing as much what the samurai warriors in their training

and preparation for life and death is that they realized from deep insight and really true contemplation about the nature of their job and their duty is that they're going to die. And so then the deep question is at the moment of death, how? And I don't mean by sword or by knife or by falling off a cliff or having a broken back, but like how? How inside do I want to have my final moments? And then their training and preparation led them to be prepared for that moment, that moment of even uncertainty. And so it sounds like in many ways, maybe not so dramatic, but certainly in a purposeful way, and maybe some haphazard risk-taking, you know, alpha experience ways that you were prepared for this moment. So that's me taking way too long to ask a very simple question, which is what were some of those key experiences and people and stories that helped shaped you and your readiness?

I grew up in a middle upper middle class home with two great parents, although my father worked a lot. My mom was home to raise us. And I when my when my brother and sister were born, I'm the oldest. I took on a very rebellious nature because it got me attention. And that became kind of the premise of my game, right? Or my survival skill. Was dad an alcoholic? Yes. Yeah. Alcoholic too? Yes. Okay. So both. Yep. And mom had a more codependent nature and took care of the family. Right. So you didn't know what the truth was. And so exactly. Yeah. Okay. And I grew up in, in orange County in the eighties.

So I grew up in social distortion, punk rock skinhead, you know, uh, orange County, um, in, northern orange county and it was a very it was a it was a very um i found safety in like the very negative aspects of all of that i guess or the angry aspects of that so i i saw an outlet through those vehicles you know of like punk rock surf punk was big surf punk skateboarding. I grew up basically in, I grew up in a place where we had a friend of mine's brother had the largest ramp in like orange County, I think at the time. And so I saw all these professional skateboarders in this culture that was evolving, you know, that influenced me a ton to not be, uh, not follow the norm. Um, you know, I mean, I, I, I, I, I dis, I was bored at school. Um, I think that that was one of the big molding points for me is, is, is not enjoying the educational system for what it was at the time. Um, and, and thus, you know,

my friends were a lot of people that didn't, that were in that group. But on the flip side of that, I was incredibly, I was a really good athlete and I, I played water polo and, and, and swam for most of my childhood and youth. And I, you know, I, I was, you know, a heavy duty, you know, I was heavy duty into sports. And I mean, I was, you know, I went into high school and freshman year was on the varsity water polo team. And we, you know, we, we, we were very good. And, you know, I, I had all these other things. So I had this kind of bizarre life where I had one life over here, which was sports and the other life, which was this kind of like underground world of these are the kids you don't hang out with. That's pretty evident I think within all my skin too.

So when people see me, they see this kind of this other side of like what it was I grew up in. You're talking about your ink? Yeah, when was your first tattoo uh 17 oh so I was young yeah yeah I mean I it was even younger than that I had a buddy of mine tattoo me but it wasn't very visible so you know like but my first real tattoo was at 17 in which the coach like pulled me out of the water and was like you you know, what are you doing? I was like, what are you talking about? Anyway. At a young age, what were you looking for?

Because you just described I lived probably, I don't know, maybe 30 miles north of you in Southern California as well. And so the off-access skate, surf, counterculture approach to life, not knowing the truth and seeking for it, just wanting to be okay, but vibed more with a bit of that angry side counterculture as opposed to the straight A side of, you know, that's how I'm going to figure my way, my true north. So what were you looking for? I think I was looking for acceptance to a large degree. I wanted to fit in and I did fit in. And I mean, I ended up like having friends in all different groups. Like I think I was the only guy or only person I knew by the end of high school who had friends in every different little group that existed from the nerds to the jocks, to the punks, to the whatever, like, you know, and, and I, you

know, it was a, it was interesting because I didn't really put that together until I think like, I, I decided like, you know, I, I think the biggest change in my life came at about 23 before I turned 24. When I decided when I finally decided, I was like, All right, I can't I got to stop drinking and using drugs. And, you know, I went into the you know, I went into the program. And I was, you know, I loved the party. How heavy was your use? Alcohol was always there. It was just the big party thing. And, and, you know, I mean, I was probably, I mean, I, I tell my wife at times it was like, you know, I was drinking like 20, 30 beers a night, like not every night, but when I'd go out and party, um, you know, which is an astronomical

amount of beer for a kid, but, um, it's expensive too. Yeah. Um, but the, the, the interesting thing is, is that it's like, I, I started to understand that nature and I, I existed in, in Alcoholics Anonymous in this place. And I went through a very hardcore phase of recovery with a very hardcore group. And, you know, I had a grandmother who was kind of a kind of a matriarch of, of Alcoholics Anonymous in Orange County. Um, you know, she's pretty much responsible for women's recovery programs and homes all over the United States. She sponsored Betty Ford. Um, so I had like this really red carpet thing that occurred for me. And so I, I literally never really felt like that was my thing. And then, you know, I, I, a lot of this stuff materialized and I don't want to like, like, I think recovery is a, is a pretty big thing for

anybody, but you know, I heard a kid say very early on when I, when I decided to kind of clean up was that AA was not the only way to get sober, but it was the way he chose to get sober. And I, that stuck with me. That was a profound statement because I was under the impression that AA is the only way to get sober. And, you know, they, they've got a good thing there, but they've also got a thing that's convincing people that, you know, of something that, you know, you can't grow out of or you can't deal with appropriately. And for me, it was, you know, I found out my grandmother probably was never an alcoholic and she just loved what happened when she came to Alcoholics Anonymous. And the fact is, is that it can work for anybody like they say right and it that that was a real important part of my life because after about five years or so I started like doing other therapy reading other

things and getting into other work and that was about the same time I really started to get into human performance and understanding that and and I'd always had an athletic background and had some coaching experience and you know all of that but that kind of kick-started something that really changed kind of the my ecosystem entirely okay so what was it about you that wanted to get sober i i just i needed growth. Okay. So I need, I needed growth. Okay. And then what was it about you that led to alcohol? It, I hadn't, I had absolutely no spiritual side to me. I had no meaning. I had, I had no real meaning. My meaning was going out and partying in order to be around people because I enjoy being around people. Are you an extrovert? Yes. And then when you're around people, they would say things to you where you felt like you belonged.

But that was temper and fleeting and external. So you would just be around people more and do crazy things and be the life of the party. And that was the circle that you're in. Okay. And then do you love ink and tattoos? Or is that part of the cape that you were wearing? Oh, I do. Yeah, I the real work never really came until well after sobriety. Okay. So the early days was more risk taking, different, you know, and then I mean, yes. And come to love about tattoos the story the kind of the i think the the tribalistic story about them

and and and these kind of the subliminal meaning behind what was the you know what was really happening you know the first real piece of work i really got done was, was my entire back, um, which is a totem. Um, and that was after finishing a hundred mile run that like something came to me, like it was just this whole thing. And, um, you know, I talked to a guy about doing that and he's like, well, you have four years. And I was like, I do. And so that was when that process really started. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You just dropped the bomb on me. So I was like, I do. And so that was when that process really started. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You just dropped the bomb on me. So you, you, you wanted to do a hundred mile run and then, and then you started the totem process or?

No, I, I did, uh, I did, uh, I, I, I had trained for a hundred miles for doing a hundred miles. I got into endurance sports, you know, uh, and, and I, we, we, we altered, we created, uh, we helped facilitate a paradigm shift in the endurance world where we, we, I, my, the first book I wrote is called power, speed, endurance. And that was really the, the crux of where we started looking at quality over quantity and how to train for endurance events in a, in a way that was, you know, not throwing your life away because you're not a professional athlete, but yet you're training like one. Um, and we've all done it, right. You know, like, Hey, let's just go out and put in some miles and all that. And most people

would, would say that but i we had changed this whole structure of the way we were training to where we were using strength and conditioning a lot more we were using more skill development we were using a lot more intensity with the work we were doing um and and this bolstered a new way to kind of train for something and i ended up running a hundred miles a couple hundred milers in the process of doing this as testing for a lot of this stuff and after I ran the first one I had an epiphany I had this whole idea this epiphany of a totem that I wanted to do based on, you know, uh, animals, uh, that existed in a Pacific Northwest tribes

kind of culture, um, with the meaning behind them. And that was why I wanted to get the, the, the work that I wanted to get done. Oh, so the, oh, the tattoo was for you. The totem was four years. Not the train. The totem was four years. Yeah. I was like, why would you take four years not the train the totem okay four years yeah i was like

why would you take four years to train for 100 miler like 100 miles no joke but i'm like yeah okay okay i got it backwards okay and then um so i didn't i didn't quite know the order so unbreakable runner was your second co-op second book yeah and i'm blood was the third all right so i'm not built for endurance i'm more more type two, a fast twitchy type, but not burdened by them is the way that some of my friends like to say to me, you know, like I'm not that, uh, and I'm not built for endurance. I'd rather be on the side of a cliff and huck myself off of something large and scary rather than do something for three, four, seven hours. Do you have any ways that when we talk about breathing and the value

of breathing, I've been watching from a distance, some of the stuff that you talk about, you know, nose breathing at a certain threshold, stay at that threshold for a while to build capacity and efficiency. And I'm wondering if I could ask you just a couple of nerd questions about that. So 100%. Okay. So, so let's get into just that tactic for endurance pieces while we're talking about your, and just so you know, you're 90% of the population. Okay. Only 10% of the population really carries that endurance type gene to where if we were actually looking at genetics, like 90% of the population carries that endurance gene, which is actually the non-elite gene. Classic. What is, what is the, what is the gene? I don't,

I'm not familiar with it. It really doesn't matter, but you know, so everybody's into their genetics testing now and the fact, and so you can decipher between power, power and let's call it endurance and and the vast majority of people fall into that power category dependent upon how much right and that's actually the athletic gene this is why you see so many people doing well at something like crossfit you see people getting freakishly great at crossfit because they're actually tapping into their potential versus just doing monotonous, slow things. And there's nothing wrong with going out and doing slow work, but it does have its disadvantages. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional

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and use the code findingmastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash findingmastery. I know you're bullish on interval training. What would you do with some breathing training around that? Knowing that you are at the tip of the spear when it comes to breathing work. If so, one of the issues that we've seen, and we'll just use a CrossFit athlete for an,

as an example, and, and by all intents and purposes, we all can make fun of CrossFit as a sport if we want. But the fact is at this stage in the game, most elite CrossFit athletes are better than the majority of people competing at their own sports. That being said, so, and I mean that across the boards, right? Like, so you've got an Olympic weightlifter, you've got a runner, or you've got a, you know, if you look at the vast majority of people, like the marathon row, these kids just did at the CrossFit games, they were finishing, I wouldn't say better than the elite merit like elite rowers would but the vast vast majority of rowers rowing a marathon they were beating now those are two

very different ends of the spectrum but when you look at this one of the key things because i had thought i so i had five athletes at the games this year right that i've worked with and on this exact same stuff because they're trying to increase their endurance capacity, right? And when we use things like nasal breathing, it's there for a threefold thing that we use within the art of breath, which is mechanics, physiology, and state. And if it affects one of these things, it affects all of these things. So if I'm trying to nasal breathe in a position and I'm trying to work and I'm working harder than I'm capable of, I'm going to end up dumping or I'm in a bad position mechanics. I'm going to end up needing to open my mouth. So it's one or the other or I'm freaking out, right?

I'm going to my mouth's going to drop and I'm, you know, or the other, or I'm freaking out, right? I'm going to, my mouth's going to drop and I'm, you know, like to say a shark came into the play, right? Like a big old shark, boom, you'd react. Breathing would change instantly. We know that's how the brain is set up with breathing. And if you're not prepared for it, or if you haven't trained for it, it's just something you're not going to be able to deal with. That being said, if I'm mechanically not sound, I'm probably going to be a mouth breather. So we clean that up with these kids and any athletes for that matter, because I work with plenty of different athletes is we show them that, you know, at three quarters, you know, or at,

let's say we're doing a five minute effort. If you're one minute into that five minute effort, and you've got a mouth breathe, we're probably dealing with a mechanical issue. So I need you to back off and change your position so that you can actually breathe through your nose. And that means they're going to slow down to a pace that they don't like. And that's an ego check. And then, but, but that's also a metabolic check because the moment you're opening your mouth, we're very aware at this point that you're now burning more glycogen, you're more sympathetic dominant. So you're tapping into energy systems that aren't necessarily needed for energy at that point.

So what we're trying to do is make you more metabolically efficient by developing that aerobic those aerobic levels. And it just so happens that when we breathe through the nose, we're actually using that diaphragm more because it's like a resistance breathing device, but we're also cleaning the air. We're also, we're also forcing the CO2 levels to be a little bit higher, which is the only reason we're actually taking a breath because CO2 is the trigger for breathing. But that also means that we're using and this is yoga right here like we're using the oxygen we're making the oxygen more bioavailable if you are if

you are over breathing you're actually not using that oxygen you're not getting enough carbon dioxide in there to kick that oxygen molecule off the red blood cells so we're not getting this thing called the Bohr effect to actually be more efficient and this is why people in yoga I mean this is one of the reasons why people in yoga feel so incredible and open up after time is because they get into the those breathing rhythms into positions to where they're not jeopardizing the position dumping air and hyperventilating like when we first get into a yoga class more super tight breathing rhythms into positions to where they're not jeopardizing the position, dumping air and hyperventilating. Like when we first get into a yoga class and we're super tight, right? Like,

it's like, Oh my God, this is so stressful versus like you're actually using, you're getting oxygen to the tissue. And so what we're doing is teaching the body to do that. And so from a mechanical standpoint, we're cleaning you up because you're now looking for a better position to be in because that's going to be required to breathe through your nose because it's a terrible position will not allow you to breathe through your nose. And that terrible position is like your, um, forward leaning posture. Yeah. Just think of being either more kyphotic rolled over or, um, for runners or a lot of our CrossFit athletes overextended an anterior pelvic tilt with the you know we're overextended up top so we're overarching you don't actually have a whole bunch

of access to the diaphragm so you're very limited in the use of it so which means you're not getting full capacity out of those lungs which then means you're compensating through the chest and you're setting off a cascade of you know a, a chest, the chest cascade, which is in essence, basically sympathetic. So it's just kind of this, this big process that starts to occur that, you know, I, I, I read an incredible quote this morning from a guy, but do you know who, do you know who Louie Simmons is? No, I don't. So Louie Simmons is arguably one of the greatest power lifters of all time and he um he he runs a place called the west side barbell and and he he

he he changed in essence the way that you know people in power lifting work but he's very smart right and he he wrote this thing out this morning and said, when you attempt to build capacity on dysfunction, you are actually deepening the attractor state of your compensation. Thus, you're building compensation, not capacity. And I think you can understand that even from a psychology perspective, right? Totally cool. And this is the world I come from is I, I, my, my, my goal is to be able to seamlessly kind of not seamlessly because it's not a seamless process, but to be able to, in essence, connect it all together. Cause it's all one thing. And if we can't see that, so if we're,

we're training and we can't see that, then, then we don't understand what we're ultimately training for. And so we're getting into these compensatory patterns of what we're't see that, then, then we don't understand what we're ultimately training for. And so we're getting into these compensatory patterns of what we're doing. So, you know, when it's, you know, I want you to get the most out of this and it's like, Hey, you might need to back off a little bit so that you can actually get better at this and then just turn it on towards the end of that five minutes and really push it to where yes you are mouth breathing but here's the irony and going really hard most people are in a very good position when they're really digging deep and hard so if you're if we all sprinted together on grass for for like 20 yards everybody would

look fairly similar and pretty decent mechanically. But once fatigue starts to kick in, we start to expose the holes. And this is exactly like psychology as well. Once I get stressed out enough, what are my defaults? What is my go-to? What are my survival mechanisms? And this is, in essence, what we kind of have been teaching to some degree without trying to kind of pull too many layers on people. Because it can be daunting for a lot of people.

They're like, I don't want to train for that. I just want to go out and train and feel good. It's like, what do you run from? And I kept getting that with the ultra-marathoning experience. People are like, what are you running from? What are you running from? I'm like, why do you keep saying that? And then it was like, oh. How did you answer that eventually?

I finally was just like, oh, I'm really trying to, this is no different than, you know, alcoholism to a large degree. My meaning is in going out and running for extended periods of time and trying to find myself and what it is I'm doing, um, through pain and suffering. And is that life? I don't know. I mean, for some people it might be, but, um, I, I have felt that there's more to it than that. And I think suffering is a choice. I think to a large degree, it's necessary for most of us in some capacity. You know, pain is pain is there for a reason.

Pain is nature's way of saying, Hey, there's something wrong. Let's, let's work on that. And I think because of the world that we've created to some degree we've got a lot of distraction and so we turn that pain into suffering what would be one of your most authentic and deepest wishes for others because it you know my experience of you is that you really care and you spend a lot of time trying to understand yourself. And I want to ask about the nature, like, what is your quote unquote practice look like the 18 hours that you're awake? Like, how are you practicing insight? Um, but what is your deepest desire wish for other people?

I mean, at one point it was like i want to help everybody right and and that is now gone might be able to see what a deeper level of awareness or responsibility is. I had this world that I lived in that I used, you know, what we just talked about, my pump rock upbringing and all this stuff right i was angry for quite some time and i feel like i'm no long i'm not really angry anymore and although i like pump rock i don't like to listen to it to the degree that i do although it brings up a lot of things um you know from my past that made me feel good to a large degree but i'm not angry anymore so i don't necessarily need all of that. Um, and, and I think that has taken years of awareness, but also the responsibility and the fact that, yeah, I might've been pissed off or angry about, you know, feeling like I was not safe or alone or isolated or, you know, whatever, you know, and those are, you know, kind of, you know, or, or, or I needed to feel like I belonged right to groups,

but I can't just use that as an excuse for why I don't feel good. I have to also understand that this is also why I'm good at what I do. Yeah. And do you, um, are you a go-to for many people for the science and art of breathing, or is there something else that people are looking for for you? And that's, um, that's like your craft, but there's something else involved. I think to some, I mean, to a large degree, I'm with a bit of a mentor to a lot of people. That's kind of really my, I don't want to be that coach. Like I'm not really your typical, a typical coach. I don't, I don't sit there and I hate, sorry to use this term, but I don't babysit.

So, so I don't, I don't sit there with athletes and walk them through everything they need to be doing anymore. I did that for a very long time and it really was a very draining process. Um, and thus I've, I've moved to kind of a more, um, strategic way of doing that where it's like, Hey, here's some things to do, see what you can get through. Tell me how you feel, what's going on. You know, all of that. I think I play more of a mentorship role. I have for a number of people that I actually work alongside with, um, in my organization. Um, you know, even outside of my organization, I think my friends, most of my friends to a large degree play a mentor type role to me as I do with them. I think we're

all trying at some, in some way or shape form to influence each other on the things that we've learned. We've kind of, I've kind of created a, an incubator type world that I live in to where we're thinking about things in a, in a new or not necessarily a new, but under a different light. Um, you know, like the breathing, for instance, like, uh, you know, I think we're just shining a different light on something that's been talked about for five or 10,000 years. Why did you turn it, turn to breathing as what you're going to invest in? What was it about breathing? We've tapped the performance side of stuff. Like there isn't a whole lot you're you're gonna see from a performance side meaning training side work side that's going to do much different

meaning we've we've pretty much hit that and so I was laughing at this thing called the training mask, which a buddy of mine handed me. And I laughed at it, but I had never used it. Right. And I was like, Oh, like this thing's not going to train you for elevation. Like it said, elevation training mask, right? For people that are not familiar, it's this like thing that you put over your mouth and your nose and it restricts airflow. Correct. And when I laughed at it and I made fun of it, I realized, you know, I I've done enough work. I feel at that point to be like, okay, you're a jerk.

Um, that's the definition basically of it, you know, just being a dick, um, to a large degree, you have never tried anything yet. You're making fun of it. Right. And so I, I, I put it on. And when I put it on, I instantly changed how I was standing. And that was all to access my diaphragm. And it literally blew my mind. And so I went down into the top of a pushup and I instantly was engaged in a very strategic, controlled, stable position that allowed me to get air in and out. I, I, I, it was very hard for me to compromise my position until I fatigued. And so I continued to play with this idea and it evolved into where we were like, okay, now we're seeing that if we're actually using this thing, when we warm up, there's no lag time in that. Like, you know, you know, when you hear about like, oh, it takes me about 20 minutes and I feel like, you know, like I'm warmed up finally. And I finally feel good. Well, that's your respiratory system catching up to your cardiovascular and muscular systems. And so there was another dip or hole that like I had never heard anybody talk about really. So you had almost a light bulb

moment as soon as your air was restricted and then it puts you in a more powerful state. Yep. Physiological state. Okay. Physiologically I was better mentally. I was better and mechanically I was set up better. Then we went to work and we've quickly found out that using that thing while trying to work really hard was not a very good idea because you just fatigued out quicker. And sure, you might develop your diaphragm a little bit stronger, but there's nothing that a little bit more hard work, you know, and understand the mechanics of your, you know, what you were doing work. Right. So we played with this for about, you know, a couple of years, we played with this thing and then really stumbled on to, uh, I, I, I, I searched high and low throughout the breathing world and, you know, ran into a method called the

Buteyko method, um, which is a, which was a Russian system designed to alleviate asthma. And it was in the medical system and it helped a lot, thousands of people with asthma. And part of this is breathing through the nose. And then, you know, stumble into a guy by the name of Patrick McKeown who wrote the oxygen advantage. I met another guy by the name of Leo Brian Daniel, who's out of Ireland as well.

He's they're both Irish. And he walked me through a lot of the as well. Um, he's, they're both Irish and, and he walked me through a lot of the stuff behind the Buteyko method and made sense of this Russian system. It was very difficult to understand then understanding a lot of things and principles surrounding yoga. And it's like, Oh wait, we've got a resistance breathing device on our face. And yeah, our nose, is that right? It was like, but you know, I also, you know, heard about this guy, George Caitlin, who wrote this book back in 1869 or something. And it was about indigenous people and how they just rarely talked that much. And they hunted with their mouths shut. They slept

with their mouths shut and they didn't have bad teeth. And, you know, it was just like, what is going on? And my head was spinning and, you know, I'm like, teeth. And, you know, it was just like, what is going on? And my head was spinning. And, you know, I'm like, wait a second, you know, and when you look at it, you go, duh. But the nose was designed with the respiratory system. And the mouth was designed with the digestive system and our communication system. And although we can get a lot of air in and out through our mouth, that is an emergency type situation, right? Versus when I actually, and now like go look at the free diving world. What do they work on? What do they do in order to hold their breath for the amount of time that they can. And they work on building a tolerance to CO2 and then building a tolerance to very low O2 levels.

These are things that actually nasal breathing trains us to be very efficient at. Maybe not as efficient as a professional freediver, but much more efficient with oxygen and much more efficient with CO2. And it just so happens that people who deal with high levels of anxiety and stress, so our high stress type A-ers, right, also have adverse reactions to CO2. So when I'm intolerant in the lungs to CO2, I tend to react very quickly or overreact very quickly or don't handle stress real well because CO2 tends to build. So this was all this compound compounding of information over a few years. And, you know, that was roughly, I don't know, six years ago or so, um, to where we just like this explosion of information started coming at me and it was like, wait a second. So I can, you know,

in learning all this, you can build better aerobic capacity, which I actually believe aerobic efficiency is actually the, the number one thing that we have for human performance. Like that is the indicator of how quickly you're going to recover, how quickly, how, how, how well you can tolerate stress. You know, how well you're going to get back the next day. And when we see these things start to take shape, we, we start to learn how to play with them. And so I can recover quicker through breathing.

You know, we, we've seen this time and time again, I can downregulate myself with breathing, I can, you know, I can change my performance in in in performance with breathing. And all of this stuff just started to explode. And so it was like, well, this looks like it could change things. And nobody was really talking about it the way that we kind of were looking at it at the time. So we just ran with it. And I think that's what, you know, we've always kind of done, at least in my, you know, my kind of my circle is it's just, you know, I'm surrounded by people who are like, yes, you know, I've got this late. We all got these layers of people. Right. And I've got these layers of kind of top level experts and masters in their own world. And I bounce stuff off of them constantly. And just to just to understand, like, or get a better sense of what I'm doing. And then for the training aspect of it, okay, so you've got community, you've got insight, practices, and that have led you to be able to embrace the unfolding unknown.

And then for the actual tactics, what is it that you are doing on a regular basis for breathing training? Is it like a eight and 12? Is it a four, four, four, four? Is it something less mechanical than that? Is it 20 by 20? Like what, what are some of the more mechanical approaches that you have? I mean, there's so many different ones. Yeah. Um, all of it to a large degree. And, but here's the thing is it's my, my, like, you know, you, you asked me what, what I want to, what I think I wanted to, you know, get, give to people. Right. And, and, and that awareness is there. That awareness is one thing but i also think that principles are another and fundamentals are another and i think this is why bruce lee like

somebody like bruce lee was so ahead of his time is he understood principles so soundly that he could do whatever he wanted and i think that's what that was what i want like i want like i like i want to understand what tummo was and tummo's this buddhist practice right and i want to understand buteyko and i want to understand wim hof and i want to understand yoga and pranayamas and i want to you know all of these things i want to understand them all right but it's like i'd have to go spend 10 20 years in each of those things to really get to the crux of them versus really getting to the heart of what it is they're doing and, and, and how much I can understand with those things. And so my, my, my practice really looks like this. I'll wake up in the morning and

typically I'm doing some form of breath practice, whether I'm using some form of, um, pranayama, which could be anywhere from a, you know, like, like a one, one, one, one, which is just a simple, like that could be five seconds in five seconds, hold five seconds, hold a exhale five seconds, hold, or I more than likely I'm doing something like a one, one, two, one, which is more of your traditional pranayama, you know, in yoga. It's just some cadence work to where I'm really just setting a tone to get myself really primed and understand where I'm at. Because what we've figured out is that CO2 tolerance literally is a direct correlate to how stressed you are. And from day to day, that can change.

And emotional stress tends to hang on a little bit harder and longer than physical stress. So I could go work out and my CO2 tolerance is kind of going to be on the floor, but in an hour, it'll be fine. But if you and I got into an abrupt argument that really emotionally affected us and we didn't resolve that more than likely that is going to have a very long lasting effect. And I'm not going to get over that. And I'm going to have a C my, my CO2 tolerance levels are going to be very low per se. And so I'm not going to react to a breathing cadence like I normally would. And so what I, you know, that, that pranayama that I do, like, it typically is around like the, you know, 10, 10, 20, 10,

and it can get up to like 12, 12, 24, 12. But I know based on going through that rhythm within the first two or three breaths, cycles, where I'm at. Got it. And I know how to gauge that on what I need to do in order to change that. And then that might alter into some, you know, like your free diving work, like where you're doing some CO2 tolerance building, where you're doing a breath hold for a specific amount of time and then you're dropping the time that you recover between those breath holds um just to work on building that stuff and for folks that are not familiar with those four parts as the inhale pause exhale pause yes correct 10 10 10 20 10 is 10 up 10 pause, uh, 10 out or 20 out, 20 out, 20 out. And then, uh, 10 pause. Yeah. Yeah. And then, okay. So, and then are you looking for a state or you, do you have a clock out in your timing,

your work? I'm looking for how I feel. And I, I, I'm, I, I try not to do a lot of stuff revolved around time, but obviously, you you know the time factor on the breathing cadence becomes you know key to you i mean this is what we will use this with cold training as well like you know you get you know or even heat training like you know or even regular training will set you on a bike and you get one breath every five seconds and let's see where you can let's see how hard you can go and and that that changes somebody's world really quickly. And yet, wait, one, what do you mean one breath every five seconds? So you're getting one breath every five seconds is 12 breaths a minute. Right. And we've, we've really been able to kind of alter some aerobic or even your ability

to absorb oxygen a lot better through and and deal with co2 obviously because it becomes very stressful you heat up pretty quickly but seeing the changes that occur like if you put on a heart rate monitor and you do this one breath every five seconds let's just go play with it and and let's just say you can only get to 120 beats a minute before you're like i I need more, I need more air. Like I got to get more air or I got to get rid of more. I got to get rid of some of this stuff quicker. Right. Play with that for a few weeks and you'll start to see that heart rate. It can climb a little bit harder. I got it. I totally got what you're doing. Cool. That is

capacity building. You got it. Right. And, but you're also, what you're building cool that is capacity building you you got it right and but you're also what you're building on is efficiency and then if you're doing it through your nose you're building on uh proper mechanics you got it totally see it okay well well done and then so what is your take for what wim hof is doing and some of the extreme cold work the the i think the cold's great um i think the extreme cold stuff is fine. I think people just need to understand that it's not a recovery thing. It's a stress thing. And, you know, it's byproduct is the same as a stress thing. Like it can, meaning the rebound off of that the you know the the what

happens after you get out of the cold is what's important and and your body responding that appropriately can be very impactful heat i think is just as important if not potentially even more important we see massive massive changes from people who in cultures that have practiced, you know, sauna and heat exposure, um, you know, and they've been used for thousands of years as well. What is your take on infrared versus regular sauna? I like regular sauna. I've had, I had an infrared for, Oh shoot, probably, I don't know, six or seven years before I got a barrel sauna and I never touched the infrared after. Oh, really? Yeah.

Because I'm about to purchase one of the two. Yeah. The last three people I've asked that question to, who I respect each one of you, have said stay with regular saunas. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That heat, I find regular saunas. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That, that heat I find very hard to adapt to, but once you get, once you adapt to that heat, there's just really not a whole lot you can take from that. I feel that heat is really the,

the game changer and everything. And I've, I've done heat training for probably 15 years to some degree. When I'm in a sauna and I've got access to one up at the Seahawks, that's the only place that I go to in a sauna. But when I'm there, what would you recommend I do if I'm in there for X number of minutes, like 10 minutes, 12 minutes? I would work out, then go get in it. Yeah, that's what I do. Yeah, great. Yeah. Try and find a breathing

rhythm. So like I'll take that 10, 10, 20, 10, and I'll literally sit in the sauna for 10, 20 minutes laying down on that rhythm. Okay. And just, and what's interesting is, is that heat starts to creep up. It gets tricky. Yeah, man. And this is why I'm saying like stresses, you know, like cold stress, just so we're, we're clear. And this is why I'll give people 10 breaths in 32 degree water. Here, you get 10 breaths, then you get out, show me, you can adapt, show me, you can control that, that reaction to that thing. And at first it's terrible and they're out in 30 seconds. Right. But then once they've adapted, it's like, you know, I, we can, I can sit in there for well over five minutes on 10 breaths, you know, and that's a controlled response to something, you know? And, and so I'm learning to, you know, get my body to

understand that. Right. How about in head, uh, in head in whole body cryo? There's nothing wrong with it. I think it can have some beneficial stuff um but nothing in nature is that cold therefore it's a superficial response and then so meaning you're only getting surface layer right surface layer and then are you if somebody loves it and it's more whatever reasons they they enjoy it by all means man yeah for sure. I don't want to change your love of something, but I believe in nature and I truly believe in it. And I think I feel like that, you know, and based on my experiences is that when we think when we grasp onto those things that exist in nature, we start to allow our system to reset with nature. And there's nothing wrong with going into cryo, like go for it, man. But I've yet to see somebody who's a cryo user sitting in a cold plunge for three minutes and not get out and not get out

and not be in, they just can't warm up versus, you know, you're in cryo for three minutes and you get out and you warm up, no problem. But, but any day of the week, I can take somebody who can sit in that ice tub for three minutes and they can get in a cryo and they're like, yeah, that's not a big, nah, it's no big deal. And so ice tub work, are you, how many minutes in an ice tub do you think is recommended per day, per week? Time? I really don't care about i think it really does come down to 10 breaths because then you can learn and this is why we use breathing i think at this we're really trying to like we're getting involved in a bunch of research right now and we're really i really want to change the paradigm of how we're looking at intensity right i think

breathing i feel we feel like breathing is that gauge for what's going on. And, and, and I mean, we, we kind of already know that to a large degree with the research has been done. The fact that we've got dedicated areas in the brain set up for respiration, they cross paths with emotions, with stress, with pain, with your muscles, with, you know, all of this stuff, you, you literally have this thing that you can go, Oh, my breathing's off or my breathing's way out of whack, or I'm just, I'm really fast right now. And it's like, if I can control that response, I now have this thing that can intercept almost, it gives me a chance to really re reconfigure that, that, that psychology of what's going on in that moment.

Okay. And just as a guiding thought is if you've got, I'd love to partner up with some research. We've got coach Carol and I are fortunate to be co-founders or co-creators, I think is the actual title for the performance science Institute at the university of Southern California. And it's out of the school of business. So we're taking a look at what are some leading edge science practices that can help businessmen and women be leaders of the next generation. So through business. So and it's how the mind and craft come together. And I'd love to do some if you've got some pending research that would be that would fit there. I'd love to to partner up with you on some of it.

Oh, I'm sure we can find a dozen things. Yeah, I know. Okay, we'll talk about that later. I mean, and this is the thing, is like I've used human performance to really, you know, be my medium for things. But the fact is, is if it affects an elite athlete or human performance, it affects the diseased. It affects our corporate environment. It affects our family. Like, it affects the diseased. It affects our corporate environment. It affects our family life. Like it affects everything. Yeah. Okay. What's the technology in your go-to kit? Like, what are you looking for objective measurements?

I mean, we've obviously we've looked at heart rate, heart rate, village variability a little bit. Um, you know, that, that changes with breath stuff. I've, we've watched that for some time. Um, I've got pH testing. We do blood glucose testing. Like we've done a lot of this stuff and I really, as much as I like to screw around with it all, I really feel like because breathing is really that indicator of what's going on stressful stress wise, that that respiration my respiration rate and understanding that can can can tell me a lot about what's going on. Now,

I got it. Totally got it. Yeah, I also think and this is from my own experience that we can also literally change. Like we, we can, we can learn to buffer off a lot of stuff through that. Meaning I'm forcing things to a large degree, right? Like I I'm, I'm, I can control my breathing when I'm actually still stressed out and we can get to that place and and we're not dealing with things appropriately and i think this is where like work like that you're doing really can have a big impact right to where it's like hey we need to get to the root of what's going on because we can do all the polyvagal theory we can do all this

breathing stuff we can do all these things but but. But if your defense mechanisms are still up or the trauma that you've experienced isn't being dealt with internally, then we're only just covering this thing up and we're compensating. Okay. How do you get in your own way? How do I get in your own way? How do I get in my own way? Yeah. Like your help, your, your deep dive into so many different aspects of. This is all the, everything that I'm talking about, like everything that I'm doing, I've gone through. This is me. Um, and, and I don't know how to do it any other way.

And I, and I, I'll give that, you know, I, I, I, I give that a large part to something like, you know, upbringing and recovery because, you know, you've got to go through your experience and you've got to share that experience to some degree. And it helps people. Um, you know, that, that has played a large part in my role. Although this is, that's not my life. I'm not really a, you know, I don't consider myself an alcoholic. I don't, I don't consider myself a runner. I don't consider myself a profit. Like the whole identity thing has really lost itself with me. So if we, if we strip that down a little bit, what are some of the important words or phrases in your life that capture the guiding principles for you? Feeling, being, um, really understanding those things to, to their core, you know, uh, love, but from a self place, because, you know, if it, if it ain't going from the self, it's, it's not, it's just another compensatory thing. You it's I really feel like getting to the root of my behavior and but being aware of that has been the strongest like that's been my thing

like really been my thing and I've unfortunately the only way I've gotten there is by observing other people and being, you know, like being almost agitated by other people's behavior. And then, but, but being able to bring that around first full circle and understanding why it agitated me. And it was because that's the behavior I don't like in myself. And I, you know, that, that process has really played an integral role in my understanding of myself and, and being able to love myself for, for, for what I am and who I am and, and being able to not hold grudges or look at things like, okay, let's say I had a, you know, like, like my dad and I in the past have had issues. I don't, I don't hold a single grudge towards him anymore. He's only got the tools

that he's got and he's only aware of what he's aware of. And it's not my job to make him aware of what those, his own behavior is. Right. So, you know, I, I think those are kind of some, those are the things that really kind of drive me or the key things that I look at and where I'm at. And I know that when I'm I really understand at this point in my life that when I'm upset or I'm angry about something or I'm agitated that it's no longer no matter where I'm pointing that finger, that that's my thing now. That's about me. Yeah, powerful. Really powerful. If you could sit across a legend, what would be the one question you'd want to ask?

Hmm. What was the most impactful thing in your life? The most impactful. And then for you, it couldn't have been putting on the mask. And I, I don't know why it's not, I don't think that it's you falling and getting concussed. But what is it for you? Maybe it was one of those. I don't know.

Or maybe it's totally something different. I mean, there's so many things that really are. And, and not, and looking at all of these things, they, it's, it's a culmination of being accepting of the fact that like they all happen for a reason. And, you know, like a very, a guy who I've worked with for quite some time, who's an engineer at NASA. Um, and he's absolutely a beautiful mind. Um, like he's genius, genius. And, you know, he came to me six years ago to, to work with him and mentor him through some stuff. And, um, he's far, far more intelligent than I am, but, and I knew when I really engaged in this process that I was going to get more out of it, but he, he's also young, right? Like he's 30 and he just buried himself. Like he will work all day, you know, at work and then he'll come home to his family and spend time with them. And then as soon as they go to bed, he works again on stuff that he's really passionate about. And he goes till about one,

one 30 in the morning and then he goes to bed and then he wakes up at like five 36 o'clock in the morning. And, and sometimes he does all nighters and things like that. And I'm, you know, we've tried to go through this as this is a dead end process. And, um, you know, he, he's hit some walls with that. And he recently went to the ER for some stomach pains and he realized that, you know, maybe I, you know, maybe, maybe some of these things are coming. Maybe I should listen to Brian. Yeah. Well, and it's not even about listening to me at this point. It's like, Hey man, you can keep doing this, but just so you know, your wife, who's sending me pictures of you in the ER and, you know, like laughing about this because you just don't want to listen to her, you know, whatever.

If he, he and I both understand that you know i literally said to him look we could both look at my accident or we look at what happened to me on may 26 as me going up that ladder and hitting my head and saying that's an accident but the fact of the matter is is that's probably just as much of a process that i put myself into that you just have. And if I'm unwilling to look at the depth of that, the possibility of the depth of that, then why, like, I, I, I'm like that. I, I feel like it's my duty to look at the possibility of that. And so I can't say that it's necessarily an accident. It's something that happened and I wasn't paying attention.

And yet I've trained to pay attention for stuff like that all the time. So, you know, whatever I could, you know, I'm not beating myself up about this. It happened for a reason. And thus I need to pay attention to that reason. And so maybe I need to be a little bit more aware of little things like that in my life, you know, to not put myself in that position. Right. Yeah. Little things like what though, playing with your nephews or like running up jungle gyms in the manner that I was doing, like, you know, trying, you know, whatever it's like, we could look at like, I'm not saying like, I'm not, for instance, like, I don't want this to

necessarily come off as though like, Hey, I'm like, I was wrong in playing with my, my nephews. Absolutely not. That's not it. There's, there's layers to everything. And it's, I really want to understand those very deep layers. And I can, of course, like say this is an accident, but I also can say maybe it wasn't. Yeah. Okay. Cool. I get it for you for sure there. So, and then of all things, what are you most hungry for in your life this extraordinary life that you've lived and the insights that you have what are you most hungry for to i it's meaning it's really its purpose it's really like you know, I love this whole mastery concept. And I feel like mastery itself is is not like a one.

It's, it's not understanding something from one way. It's understanding it like look at mastery is the top of the mountain, right? there are a lot of ways to get up that mountain and so i feel like there's this like once i've gotten you know maybe up to the top of the mountain one way i want to go back down and i want to go up another way and i want to do that over again and i want to do that over again. And I want to do that over again. And I feel like that's that, that really is allowing me to understand things and bring true purpose into what it is I do. And having purpose provides almost everything for you and not having purpose really can create some confusion and boredom.

Yeah. God, I'm so stoked to, to know you and have this conversation. So seriously, Brian, thank you. Um, when extraordinary, uh, what we spent, this has been like an hour and a half, like for me. Awesome. So thank you so much. Thank you. Well, I appreciate you doing this, Michael. I really do. And I, I, I admire what you're doing and how you're doing it a ton. Oh, cool, man. Yeah, I'd love to. I'd love to figure out a way to do some work with you because I think you're really on to some of the right stuff, so to speak. So thank you for the compliment.

Let's look to find a way to lock arms to do something fun and meaningful at the same time. So I'd love to do that with you. I would too, my friend. I definitely would. Cool. And then where can people find you? Where's the best place? I know I'm loving following you on Instagram, but like, where's the right place to find you and to support you as well? All the work that we really kind of talked about is centered on powerspeedendurance.com. Um, and then, I mean, if you want to follow kind of my own adventures and you know, all of that, um, and the information I'm, you know, putting out, uh, Instagram is usually the best place. It's about the only

place I can handle at this point with, with social media, I can't manage all of it. Um, so that, that's, uh, underscore Brian McKenzie. Okay. And then, so buying the books, follow on Instagram, that's just for more fun. And then what about consulting? Like the art of breathing? Yeah. The art of breath is our, that that's, we teach that as a, that's actually a one-on-one that we teach, um, out around the world. Uh, and we actually are putting that online. Um, I believe in the next month we've already filmed it. We're just green lighting all the content than the way it's been shot. Um, so that'll be online. Uh, and then the one Oh two will be coming out, which is obviously a more advanced version of that. Um, and so we teach that all

over the place. Um, and then it'll be online as well. Is that the art of breath.com or art of breath.com or that's on power, speed, endurance, and that'll be under, um, there'll be the art of breath clinics under that. Yeah. Okay. Brilliant. And they're in-person clinics as well. They're digital and in person. Yes, they are. Yeah. Okay. Brilliant. And awesome. Awesome. Awesome. I'm looking forward to next time that we get to see each other. So Brian, all the best. And then when that's up, make sure you ping me either social or email or whatever, and then we'll do everything we can to amplify the one-on-one and the 200 version as well. Thank you, sir. I greatly appreciate it. Yeah. All right,

Brian, take care. Thank you, Michael. Okay. Bye. All right, Brian, take care. Thank you, Michael. Okay. All right. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. Thank you. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you

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