Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Choose Happiness | Sage Steele

Episode Date: April 23, 2020

This week’s conversation is with Sage Steele, one of ESPN’s most popular and respected commentators.Sage joined ESPN in 2007 and currently serves as the co-anchor for ESPN’s flagship show, SportsCenter, weekdays at 6 p.m. ET.She has served as the lead host for SportsCenter on the Road, since 2016, a role that includes on-site, day-long and pre-event coverage for the biggest sports events of the year, such as the Super Bowl, the NBA Finals, the World Series, the Masters, the College Football National Championship and many more.Sage also hosted NBA Countdown on ESPN and ABC from 2013-2017.This is an incredibly powerful conversation.I really wasn’t expecting to go to the places we went but I was so appreciative we did – Sage opens up about her personal life and the difficult yet necessary decisions she’s had to make.As Sage puts it: the most important mental skill is having the courage to speak your truth… and for that matter live your truth.The beautiful thing about this is when you can live this way, there’s amazing freedom that comes with it. _________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. What I have found, especially recently, is that when you're open and you can share, what comes of it is potentially pretty beautiful. And yes, for myself, because you can talk and you're not holding it all in, which I think is so, so just it's just wrong. But it's easier said than done to share things that are painful. But it has helped me so much to talk about it. But I think the coolest thing is that when you share your experiences, your pain, others share theirs.

And not only you realize you're not even close to alone and then they realize the same thing. And then you're helping each other by sharing your story. I just think everybody wins and everybody has their own way of doing it, too, certainly. But I'm just not afraid of sharing it anymore. And it's so rewarding. Okay, welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. And my name is Michael Gervais by Trade and Training. I'm a sport and performance psychologist. I'm also the co-founder of Compete to Create. And I just want

to say your time is really valuable and I appreciate you spending your time here. We spent a lot of time thinking about what is the right mechanism? What is the right investigation process? What is the right way of getting out, you know, highlighting and celebrating people that are extraordinary so that you can adopt some of those same principles or understand where they're coming from. And so you can have a process to anchor deeper, like where you're going in your life and what you're working to understand. And I really want to understand what people, like, what are they trying to do in life and who are they trying to be?

And then what are the ways that they are exploring to make that happen? You know, there's no roadmaps. It's an uncharted path for you becoming you. No one's done it before. And I love it. I just, I love it. And I just want to say thank you for being part of this community and sharing that love. And hopefully you being able to have a deeper sense of who you want to be and helping people in your life do the same. And then on top of it, you know, being able to do the extraordinary things that you want to do in life. So that's the whole idea behind this podcast and behind these conversations. And the thing that concerns me a bit is like, are we doing the people that are coming on the podcast, the guests, are we doing them justice? And I know that we're not because you can't in 45 minutes or an hour, but hopefully some of their genius is amplified. Now, when I say genius, I'm talking about vulnerability. I'm talking about courage. I'm talking about not just their intelligence, right? And then the other thing that I get concerned

about is that it's a really meaningful part of your experience in life as well. So I just want to say thank you. And we are mission-minded and you are a massive part of this mission. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time.

And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes, and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction.

In other words, it's not about more outreach. It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal for For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put

him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the chocolate chip cookie dough.

And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters and that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Okay. This week's conversation is with Sage Steele. She is one of ESPN's most popular and respected commentators. She joined ESPN in 2007. Great story around how she got there and her choices along the path. And she currently serves as the co-anchor of ESPN's flagship show,

SportsCenter. And it's weekdays at 6 p.m. Eastern. If you're in the sport world, you know the show. You know who she is. And she's served as the lead host for SportsCenter on the road since 2016. And that was a role that includes on-site, day-long, pre-event coverage for some of the biggest sport events of the year, like the Super Bowl and NBA finals and World Series. You know, I mean, she's in it. She's in those spaces. And she also hosted NBA Countdown on ESPN.

And she did that from 2013 to 2017. Sage is incredible. Waiting to hear this conversation. This is a very powerful conversation because of its authenticity, because of the trueness, because of the place that it came from. And I wasn't expecting to go to the places we went. And I don't think Sage was as well, but I really appreciate that we did. We needed it.

I needed it. And she talks about her personal life and her journey. She talks about how she's becoming the woman that she wants to be and the path that has led her there, the choices, the micro choices. And it's incredible. So as Sage puts it, the most important mental skill is having the courage to speak your truth. And for that matter, live your best to do that. But I can also notice when people have their marketing slash media mind on. And even though they don't want to, you know, there is this other narrative that runs in the background for many of us, like what are people thinking or could be thinking of what I'm saying? And so we project

who we want to be as opposed to who we really are. And that becoming of who we really are is who we are meant to be. I know it's confusing, but the projection of who we want people to think we are, that's not it. Sage has faced that down. And for the most part, she's done with it. It's awesome. It's incredibly freeing. And on that note, the beautiful thing is that when you can live this way, there's amazing freedom that comes with it. And if you love this podcast, if you love these conversations, support us, you know, any of our sponsors for that matter, that it's the greatest way. Go check them out, you know, at bare minimum, check them out,

see what we're stoked about, the way we're introducing them to you. And then, you know, take the next step. And if it's eloquent for you, consume that service or that product that they're offering. We think that it's going to help you in your life. Okay. Another way that you can help is to tell at least two friends today about this podcast. I know it sounds a little silly, but it's a massive win for us. If everyone here connected with two people and said, you know, this is the thing that I'm helping me be better. And I think it could help you be better. And I'm trying to help everyone be better and blah, blah, blah, fill in that, you know, kind of narrative there. It'd be awesome if you found two people and just, you know, showed them exactly what you're vibing on. So with that, let's jump into an amazing conversation with Sage Steele. Sage, how are you? I am great. I can't believe we're doing this. Thank you.

Oh, yeah. So it's been, I don't know, a decade since we last spoke. It's unbelievable how time flies, isn't it? A whole decade. Gosh, I only had about half as much gray hair then. And kids who liked me, now they're teenagers. So a lot has changed in the last decade. Yeah. Yeah. It's been really fun to see what you've been doing and how you've been doing it. And so I'm super stoked to sit down with you and catch up and also really understand like how you've done what you've done and what it's like, you know, even in modern times right now. So, yeah. So for folks that don't know your body of work and certainly might not know the history that preceded it, could you just do, I like to do this and, and let's see if we can do it together, but could, if there was a book that you were writing your

book, what would the first chapter be? You know, thinking about the first couple of years of your life. Um, what are the, yeah. What are the chapters of your life? First of all, that's on my to-do list. And it's been on my to-do list for about two and a half years. And the book will be coming. The question is when. I need to add at least two hours to every day to make it happen, I think. But I mean, I guess if you go chronologically, it would start with my phenomenal, blessed upbringing, which I am, I honestly sometimes have questioned like, why, how, how did I get chosen to be part of such an amazing family? I'm an army brat, proud army brat, and moved all over the world. I would say that time I was 11, I lived an army brat, proud army brat and, um, moved all over the world.

I would say that time I was 11, I lived in four different countries, including, including this great land, United States. But, um, I just, I thought that was normal to just move. And then, you know, you make friends and this is long before any technology and, you know, email or, you know, long distance used to cost money to call. So I wasn't allowed to call friends when we moved, especially in a different country. And so I just, we just were an awesome group of five, my parents and I, I'm the oldest of three, I have two younger brothers. And I grew up in a strict, loving, military, Catholic household. And I just, I seriously, like we are, I talked to my parents and I'm 47 years

old. I talked to my parents probably three to four times a day. They're my best friends. And they have been, I've never, I never really went through that funky teenage time where you don't like your parents. I was a weird one. I was a goody two shoes and just really have always got along with my parents through all the moves brought us so much closer because you're kind of on your own, especially in different countries where people don't speak English. I thought that was normal to move like that until I got back to the States and people had been there their whole lives. I'm like, what do you mean you've known them since kindergarten? What is that? So I don't know. I just feel like I've had the best upbringing because of my parents and extended family. I'm pretty spoiled.

Okay. So when did that, that's awesome because I want to know when that ended, when that chapter ended, but I want to just add some context is I just had a conversation with, um, we did a project with Microsoft called decoding disruptors and it was nine women who fundamentally disrupted their business. And like, you know, it was incredible. And one of the themes was, I think it was seven of the nine moved a lot when they were young. And so before we close up this chapter, what did you learn from that?

What did you gain from that experience? Because it's not how you would probably script it. No, I mean, but number one, I didn't know any different. I thought that that's normal. It's all my you would probably script it. No, I mean, but number one, I didn't, I didn't know any different. I thought that that's normal. It's all of my friends did the same thing. So, um, I, I learned in hindsight, of course, when you're in it and you're a kid, you're just going and life is just easy.

Uh, relatively speaking, I, I learned to be versatile and to be able to adjust to anything and everything and to walk into a classroom in third grade or, you know, a executive, you know, conference room years later and just to stand up tall and walk in and introduce yourself and have that confidence. Because if you don't do that, you're not going to have you're not going to have anybody to hang out with in the playground, you know. And then, of course, going to have anybody to hang out with in the playground. You know, and then, of course, that transfers throughout life. The problem is, I was so shy, so shy to the point where my parents were like concerned talking to doctors about me. Like, why doesn't she talk when she's around people other than us. So they laugh to this day when they watch me on SportsCenter because they're like, what happened to the shy, quiet, timid child? I'm like, I'm none of those things, especially

not a child. So I think it eventually taught me that you've got to work at this, you know, because there's too many other people who are going to put themselves out there. So in order to have friends, I had to get over being shy. And the funny thing is, is I decided when I was 12 years old that I wanted to be a sportscaster. And my parents were like, well, you're probably going to have to talk a little more then. So there was this whole thing. And I had to change my life at a young age with this dream. Oh, my goodness. Okay. So this is why I love with this, with this dream. Oh my goodness.

Okay. So this is why I love the chapters, right? This is like, right. This is really, okay. So let's see if we can examine, if you will, or understand this part of your life from a couple of different perspectives. Okay. So why was that your natural default response to be quiet and not use your words? And you could go anywhere

like that. I don't know to like, I was actually afraid of or whatever it might be. No, I don't know that there was a reason. I do think that sometimes you're kind of born with it. I have three kids. They're 14, 14, 16, and 18. And all three are so different. They handle things differently. My oldest daughter and my, actually my, my youngest as well as a girl, I have a boy in the middle. They can walk into a room and take it over. It took me 40 years to be that way. Like that's just who they are. My son is definitely more timid and shy and can feel awkward at times. And I have to build up that confidence in him a little bit. Sometimes with the girls, I got to bring it down. So the confidence for sure. And so for me, I was more like my son and just timid and kind and sweet, almost to a fault where it's like,

oh goodness, girl, you're going to get eaten alive. So I don't, I don't know that there is a reason. I just know that I had to really, really work to get out of it. And that was my parents doing. So would you say that this default was enjoyable? Like you felt comfortable and at home being quiet and reserved? Or did it feel like you were scratchy and a little bit of a turmoil inside when you would go to a public place or a social place? Definitely shy and get definitely uncomfortable, I should say, and probably tighten up a little bit. But again, that's all I ever knew. And I also think most kids were probably a little bit more like me rather than this, hey, world, I'm here, watch out. And so who knows the combination of something innate

that you're born with, and also being an awkward 10-year-old kid, and then you're a teenager and your hormones are raging and you're just a disaster in general. My girls might be really, really confident and funny and just their presence is wonderful, but they're disasters hormon, and they're teenagers. And every day, I'm like, Okay, Lord, help me through it. Because I don't know what I'm gonna get,

right? Parents know what that's like. So I think it's, I was not comfortable. No, I wasn't comfortable. But I was very comfortable at home. And I, of course, and I and I trusted my parents. And so when they had to push me out of my comfort zone, I went along with it, it just took a long time. Oh, that's really powerful. Okay. Because what I was sorting at, what's powerful is this note of trusting your parents and trusting their voice and trusting that they had your best interest, which is foundational. It's a really important part. It's something that I actually, when helping professional teams draft, that I look at that as a core construct. Because if you have a hard time

trusting others and trusting yourself for sure, it's really hard to progressively grow. Yeah. Right. And so let's put a note in that for a moment, right? Because that I do think like my problem and we can come back to it is that I've, I've trusted too much. Yeah. So I want to circle around the trust thing with you. I think it's going to be a good one. And then, but this idea that, um, I was asking more about introversion and extroversion. Yeah. So introversion is like, I just gather energy from my internal state, like thinking and feeling and listening.

And I love it. So that's a very comfortable way to go into a space. But then we have this outside pressure that we're supposed to be outgoing and gregarious and whatever. And that creates a conflict for people. But it sounds like, I don't know, are you introverted or extroverted? I can't quite tell. Can you be both? Oh yeah, we are both. Because it is, as the original theory goes from Carl Jung, who wrote the theory long ago, was that we have a true preference.

Yes. And then we need to develop the other side of it. So if your true preference is, you know, as you're thinking, you're talking. That's an extrovert. You know, big hands, you know, big eyes. I'm sorry, big lips because that's how they're thinking, right? And they're talking all the time. But they have to develop the introverted skill.

Same on the other way. Right. So would you say your natural place is? To be an introvert. And then I had a mother who have a mother who's Irish-Italian and just wild and big green eyes. And she's this. She's hands and everything. And then my dad was more introverted, still is. They've been married for 49 years and, and have, their story is beautiful. But, um, so I grew up in a, in a household and of course my father was, was an

army officer and leading battalions. And so he had to be extroverted to an extent as well. So I grew up with extroverts. And so I think felt maybe even, you know, indirectly some pressure to be more like them only because that's what I saw. So how did you do looking back? If you speak to Little Sage, like, how are you trying to sort that out? Because the way that you spoke to yourself, you have worked through it. And not everybody has many people feel stuck and trapped in the way that they engage with the world because they can't figure out how to authentically be themselves or build the other skillset, you know, the other side of, um, their natural preference. So if you like, take us back, how'd you do it?

And it doesn't need to be eloquent. It can be super clunky, you know, anywhere in between. I'm still doing it. And I still walk into a room and have to psych myself up sometimes. Yeah. I would never imagine that. Okay. Right. I'm full of a lot of people. Okay, brilliant. So how do you do that? So this is like your preparation experience. How do you do that now? Now it's a split second. And I just take a deep breath and it's like, here we go.

But I'm nervous walking in. Recently, I had to do an event for the Multiple Myeloma Research Foundation. My father is one of two cancers that my dad has. And at the last second, they were supposed to attend with me. And at the last second, they couldn't because he was just not well. And so I had done this whole big thing and booked them a nice room at the hotel in New York city. And, and was, it was their anniversary gift. I had them come in and he, so I had to go to this thing alone and, you know, it was pretty formal and walk in and and I just I was so nervous and like okay deep breath this is what mom dad would want you to do you go in there and you represent and then I walked

in and I felt like like a little girl alone on the playground again and and I just had to stand up tall and I'm tall anyway so I'm like okay this isn't that hard. And look around and smile. And, you know, you make an awkward conversation with somebody while you're getting a glass of wine at the bar. I mean, it's a process every time for me, just like I still get butterflies going on TV, which I think is a good thing. I have to fight that urge to be shy and to go back to that little girl. So introversion and shyness are different. True. Right. So introversion, I just love the way it feels to listen and to make sense of things. And

if I can be in a really rich conversation with one or two people, like that's an introvert's home. Okay. But shyness is like, it's probably mapped a little bit closer to the nervousness that you feel. Okay. Right. So the nervousness, I would love to know what you were nervous of then and what you're maybe nervous of now, because everybody's got different, different things that they're working on. Well, I think as a, as a kid, it was definitely just not being liked and also being a little bit different. I was, I was different than the other kids. Not that many. I mean, the one thing I say about the military life is that people don't realize is the diversity and they don't appreciate the diversity, um, in any, um, Army, Air Force, Navy, whatever it is.

And so when you're when you're on a military base and living there, I mean, it doesn't matter. Like color doesn't matter in the military. It's the most diverse environment that actually is quite sheltered because everyone is so accepting, if that makes sense. It's a little bit of both. Then you leave the safe, friendly confines of the military and go out into the real world. And it's like, oh my gosh, people aren't that accepting. And I've come from an interracial marriage. My mom's white, my dad's black, I was biracial, a lot of kids look like me. And it was, and then you get away from that and went go to non military schools when it came back to the States in 1984, when I was 1112, going into seventh grade, and people weren't that accepting. And so I realized how different I was. And I think then I wanted to be liked.

I think like most kids, but it was that fear of not being liked, which I have just recently, in the last probably two to three years, finally let go of, you know? What did you let go of, you know, what did you let go of? The, the desperate need to be liked. Pretty painful to get there. Is there emotion when you say it? Can you tell? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I, you got to let go of it. And it's been, it's been freeing. It just took a lot to get there. And I think it goes back to being a pleaser, which I always, I remember really disliking one of my brothers for years because he was the wild, you know, crazy middle child boy who gave my parents crap. And then he would upset my, my mother or something like most kids do, like I get upset.

And he, um, and that upset me that he upset her. So I didn't like him because he upset my mother. I wanted it to be peaceful and I wanted it to be just this nice, calm, and I wanted everybody to like each other. Like it wasn't just someone liking me. I wanted everybody to be happy and perfect. And that's just not possible. So it's taken so long to let go of that and realize it's okay that they don't, someone doesn't like me, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust momentous. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn to their mission,

helping people achieve performance for life. And to do that, they developed what they call the Momentus Standard. Every product is formulated with top experts, and every batch is third-party tested, NSF certified for sport or informed sport. So you know exactly what you're getting. Personally, I'm anchored by what they call the momentous three protein creatine and omega-3 and together these foundational nutrients support

muscle recovery brain function and long-term energy they're part of my daily routine and if you're ready to fuel your brain and body with the best momentous has a great new offer just for our community right here use the code finding mastery 35% off your first subscription order at LiveMomentous.com. Again, that's L-I-V-E Momentous, M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S, LiveMomentous.com and use the code FindingMastery for 35% off your first subscription order. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Felix Grey. I spend a lot of time thinking about how we can create the conditions for high performance. How do we protect our ability to focus, to recover, to be present? And one of the biggest challenges we face today is our sheer amount of screen time.

It messes with our sleep, our clarity, even our mood. And that's why I've been using Felix Grey glasses. What I appreciate most about Felix Grey is that they're just not another wellness product. They're rooted in real science. Developed alongside leading researchers and ophthalmologists, they've demonstrated these types of glasses boost melatonin, help you fall asleep faster,

and hit deeper stages of rest. When I'm on the road and bouncing around between time zones, slipping on my Felix Greys in the evening, it's a simple way to cue my body just to wind down. And when I'm locked into deep work, they also help me stay focused for longer without digital fatigue creeping in. Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science.

And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Okay. So I want to come at this maybe two ways as well to understand deeper. What is the emotion that you're feeling now? Is that the surfacing of the pain that you've experienced by being made fun of or picked on or whatever that, you know, hated in some way? Or is this the tears of joy? Why am I crying? I don't know why. Well, I think because this is part of your life work and it's meaningful, right? This is a meat. This is like the most meaningful thing that you've gone through, um, along with birth of your children or whatever, but this has been your

true inner journey. And I don't want to maybe make it too big, but this is, you know, let me, let me just, can I talk for a minute? Please. And I'm going to, while you're talking, I'm just going to reach up and grab a Kleenex. Oh yeah, for sure. I'm with you. So growing up in an environment where you felt safe and you were loved by your parents and it was a cocoon and you felt the tension that you needed to maybe be a little more outgoing. And there was this inner dialogue that maybe I don't really have what it takes and this feels painful and it's hard. But God, I love my parents and the safety at home and I feel good. And then when you left the second cocoon, which is the military, it was like, whoa, am I white? Am I black?

Like, how do I fit in? These people are way meaner. Like maybe I got teased in the military thing, but it was like we all tease each other and it was we're all in it together. We're mission minded. And when it came down to it, we had each other's backs. Right. And it was maybe and I'm oversimplifying, you know, very complicated journey. And boy, then you start to go into the public setting where on social media, otherwise it's it's a whole different thing.

And so I'm wondering that that is part of the narrative. And I'd love for you to fill in as many holes there as you can. Yeah. Again, here's the thing. I wouldn't change anything. I truly wouldn't. The good, the bad, the ugly. When I think back to some of the more painful times, my first reaction is get over it. You've led such a blessed, charmed life with parents who love you and a beautiful upbringing and been able to achieve your career dreams. Get over it. So to be to have to go back and acknowledge it. It's important. And to not ignore it for so long. I realized that. I think I go back to that a couple of moments where I just was it was forced on me that I was so different. And one in particular, senior year of high school, moved from Colorado Springs to Indianapolis, Carmel, Indiana, outside of Indy. And they didn't have housing on post for us for the first year. So we went out to suburban Indy, Carmel, and we chose that area, my parents,

because very good schools, excellent academics, public schools and sports. And I was like, great. And so senior year, though, and I was a young senior. I started at 16, graduated at 17. And I was the only black student out of 2000 kids and didn't even realize it because we don't look at color. That's not how I was raised, you know? And it's just not anything my parents chose to even research. It's just a good school. We never had to think about that. So it was made quite clear to me pretty shortly after I got there.

First of all, they thought they were going to win the track state championship because they had a black girl on the team. And then they saw me run. They're like, oh, never mind. Not all black people can run fast or jump high. And then the worst day is one I'll never forget. But again, I wouldn't change it. I was walking to class and this group of boys that I thought you know I was pretty friendly with a couple of them cornered me and started calling me yelling the n-word at me and told me to go back to Africa you gorilla monkey you bleep in this and that and you know the n-word is never mean, it was just completely unacceptable in my home or it, you know, music was different than we didn't hear

it as much in music then, but that's just the worst possible thing you could say. And for these young men, these boys, two of whom were my friends to say that and back me into a corner, I just, you know, so went home and told my mom and dad. My dad was out of town. So my mom went to school with me the next day to discuss it with the principal. And he called me a liar and said that it never happened and said that I made it up. What did you learn from that moment? Again, it was someone that I trusted who then let me down.

Not a best friend, but a guy friend, you know, which was important. It was a guy. Was this the principal or the kid? Oh, I'm sorry, the kid that did it. The principal, oh my goodness. I think I always had put adults on a pedestal and people in authority in a pedestal on a pedestal. And so to, to hear him call me a liar and say that I made it up. I'll never forget that. I'll never forget that feeling of desperation. Like, wait, what are you talking about? You had three traumas in the course of

12, 18 hours, right? You had the first trauma of your friend betraying you. You had three traumas in the course of 12, 18 hours, right? You had the first trauma of your friend betraying you. You had the second trauma of being cornered and with racial slurs, you know, entowed. And then you had the third trauma, which is an adult, you know, betray their position of care, right? So you had three traumas in the matter of let's call it 18 hours. So, um, and listen, you know, this, nobody's coming through this world without trauma. There's big trauma, there's big T and there's little T nobody's coming through this thing without it. And, um, to think otherwise is a bit Pollyannish. Like it's not, it's not how it works. And let me eject for just a moment.

Karch Karai, one of the greats, we're just talking about from the, uh, one of the greatest volleyball players ever to play in coach. We're in the Olympics. Um, and he says, Mike, no, one's ever won a medal or stood on stands on the stand, uh, on the podium without facing a double barrel shotgun. And I said, yeah. And, and it's an apt metaphor for life. Now I don't want that for my people, but you know what, it's going to happen. And you're, you're also saying I wouldn't change it. I don't know if this is the most traumatic moment of your life or you've had 200 others, but like you wouldn't change it. So I want to know what you learned and why you wouldn't change it. So I want to know what you learned and why you wouldn't change it.

Two weeks after it happened, I was walking in the hallway and I was walking with my head down as I often did, thinking back because I was different. Again, the only girl, the only kid. And you were tall too. You look different in every way, right? Awkward, lanky, tall, big curly hair, dark skin, all the beautiful blonde hair, blue-eyed girls that were the ones that the boys wanted to date. You know, I was the opposite of all of that. And then that happened. And that made me feel certainly worse. And I was walking through the hallway and a teacher called me into a room. She's a German teacher, Agnes Kam. I remember her name to this day. And I graduated from high school in 1990. So 30 years. And I didn't have her as a teacher either. But most people knew who I was. I stood

out and she called me into the room and she said, listen, I heard what happened and I need you to know something. You are doing more for Carmel High School than we could ever do for you just by you being here and walking these halls. Don't you dare let anybody take you down because you are your presence is helping us. And I'm sorry it happened. We all aren't like that. You stand strong, young lady. And don't you let this bring you down. And I'll never.

It's been 30 years. I'll never, it's been 30 years. I'll never, like she saved me because she was another adult who came in and said, no, no, no, no. What happened to you is wrong by the principal. And she made me stand up a little bit taller, unslouch a little bit. And just by, just by continuing to be there, like I wasn't going to be beaten. So that's why I wouldn't change it because she, there was such a beautiful lesson in all pain. I truly know and believe that now, but, um, there, there was, there was just, that was, you know, you just want to be a senior. You just want to go, go to high school and go to your prom and have that normal kind of fun. I mean, so that was certainly a trauma. And after that, you go to college and all that.

Listen, I love, I'm so proud of my biracial background. I'm so, I feel like I have the best of both worlds. What comes with that is not everybody looks at it that way. And I've never been black enough for African-Americans. White people don't view me as theirs either. And for a long time when I was younger, you want to you want to be included in something. So I stood out like a sore thumb at Carmel. So I was like, OK, let me just go. I think it's that's where it goes to as far as being liked.

Like I'm not they're not all nobody's going to like me anyway. And I am different. And then I speak differently and maybe my hair is different and be that person for everybody. So what if I hadn't had that trauma? What if I hadn't had those boys corner me or that principal, not just a teacher, principal say that? It wouldn't have certainly, I mean, that helped me prepare for the chaos of the industry that I'm in and what is what comes with that despite so much awesomeness there's a lot of other stuff that comes with it when you're in that public spotlight and people are free to judge and name call um and characterize so I don't even know if that makes sense Michael I just know that um I've always been a little bit different.

And for a long time, I was afraid of that. And now I cherish it. It's awesome. And I'll tell you why it's awesome. This is actually one of the things I wanted to talk to you about. I didn't know this. Of course, I didn't know this. But your ability to express and to articulate with high emotion is a rare thing.

Most people will project, they will blame, they'll use the easy emotion of anger, and they won't want to talk about it. So I'm guessing that you have found a deeper sense of integration in who you are, what you stand for and how you express yourself across any condition, you know, and I'm not saying it's not hard in some conditions, but imagine you're finding more integration and that integration doesn't come without acknowledging suffering, feeling suffering, noticing the suffering of others, you know, working through that lonely road sometimes, you know, and nobody does it alone. Right. Right. You know, and so you also had another note in there about it was important that they were, that it was a boy. And so I'm imagining that there was some, um, consequences of like trusting of young men at some point in your life, but I'm, I'm kind of

making that part of the story up. I, I just never had a boyfriend. Oh, okay. Yeah. Never. I didn't. That's surprising. No, actually, if you saw me, then it's not, but it's, I, I, and I was always around boys cause I had two brothers and my dad and my, you know, I mean, manly men, military. And my dad played football at West Point. Like, you know, I was comfortable around men more so than boys because boys never saw me. Boys, you know, and when you're young, you just want a boyfriend, right? I mean, I'm trying to work with my daughters now, like, no, you don't have to, you don't need a boy. But I was, yeah, at least I had boy, you know, friends who were boys. And so then maybe it turned into something else.

And then those boys, yeah, let me down for sure. I mean, I think I appreciate what you said about, you know, the emotion and being able to speak through it, I guess. What I have found, especially recently, is that when you're open and you can share, what comes of it is potentially pretty beautiful. And yes, for myself, because you can talk and you're not holding it all in, which I think is so, so just, it's just wrong, but it's easier said than done to share things that are painful, but it has helped me so much to talk about it. But I think the coolest thing is that when you share your experiences, your pain, others share theirs, and not only you realize you're not even close to alone, and then they realize the same thing. And then you're helping each other by sharing your story. I just think everybody wins. And everybody has their own way of doing it too, certainly.

But I'm just not afraid of sharing it anymore. And it's so rewarding. How did you develop that courage? Because sharing is about vulnerability. And vulnerability and courage are the same coin, just opposite sides of it, right? We need both to have the coin be intact. So how did you get – I could make a guess on how you did it. Um, and I will share what my guess is after. I don't want to kind of taint it, but like, how, how did you do it?

To find the courage to share? Well, how did you develop the courage, um courage to be free? I just got tired of holding things in. And I got tired of kind of being pushed around a little bit, to be honest with you, at work in many, many ways, you know, and having to do things a certain way and, um, have opinions that are supposed to be just like others, other women, other women who look like me, um, you know, African American. And I, I just, I got angry about it, frankly, like, wait a minute. So because I look a certain way, I have to think a certain way. So much came from, frankly, like, wait a minute. So because I look a certain way, I have to think a certain way. So much came from my marriage and marrying a white guy. And the hatred that I

received from, in particular, the black community changed me. was it was so painful and this is coming from a young girl who saw a beautiful interracial marriage that was what my parents were even though my mom's parents disowned her for marrying a black man oh and so so i saw though i saw the strength of my parents that you when love is love you pull through it so then when i did the same thing and felt such hatred for it, I just thought, wait a minute. So then you get put in this box and I, I would, I don't know what I was done. I was done with it. And I, um, yeah. Finding master is brought to you by cozy earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep.

It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is how much it actually helps regulate temperature. I tend to run warm at night and these sheets have helped me sleep cooler and more consistently, which has made a meaningful difference in how I show up the next day for myself, my family, and our team here at Finding Mastery. It's become part of my nightly routine. Throw on their lounge pants or pajamas, crawl into bed under their sheets, and my nervous

system starts to settle. They also offer a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty on all of their bedding, which tells me, tells you, that they believe in the long-term value of what they're creating. If you're ready to upgrade your rest and turn your bed into a better recovery zone, use the code FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com.

That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is FINDINGMASTERY for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. That's a great discount for our community. Again, the code is Finding Mastery for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With

Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Have you ever heard the phrase, I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired? Yeah. Yeah. So that is, comes from the addiction and alcohol, you know, is a world. And people that have gone through addiction, they're some of my favorite people because they have squared up with their dragon.

You know, they've gone, they've gone to that place. They've squared up. They've looked the dragon in the eyes and learn how to pet it. You know, like they've gone to that place, they've squared up, they've looked the dragon in the eyes and learned how to pet it. You know, like they've gone to the depths of it. And I think that I'm hearing the same thing for you. Born out of pain, you made a decision, you know, like, okay. And then usually the way it goes is small, incremental vulnerability practicing or practicing a vulnerability. And then you practice it here, then there, then there. And before you know it,

you're on a podcast saying, yeah, you know, right? Like, Hey, here it is. I, you're right. And it has been building, gosh, the, the, you're making me think back to examples. Um, okay. I'm going to, I'm going to admit something to examples. Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna admit something to you. Is that okay? You're pulling it out of me. I even have a glass of wine with me. And I'm pulling it out of me. Maybe I should get one real quick. And this is the other part about the book that I want to write where it's like, for so long, I was, I was afraid, like, okay, how much am I going to say here? Right. Um, I, I haven't talked publicly about this at all yet. Um, but I, I got divorced five months ago and two days shy of my 20th wedding anniversary. So first boyfriend met in college and yeah. So I think it goes to that that pleaser thing right

you're supposed to say and do everything a certain way and then and then you get sick and tired of being sick and tired using your words um and you just have to at some point be okay being true to yourself whether that's with your opinions or with your relationships and then when you're preaching that to your children but you're not necessarily living it that's when it gets serious yeah right I've just finally in every aspect of my life most importantly at home um yeah I just had to be honest and to not be afraid of what comes with um speaking your truth and and and being honest and listening to your heart. Again, that means standing up for yourself at work, even on social media, which I really don't care to do anymore. It's not worth it. But most importantly, with my family. And yeah, so it's been quite a

six months, quite a year. So, okay. All right. So this is one of the big pivots in your life, right? Yeah. You're in it. And so not, this is not a question about details. This is a question about like, how did you do that? Right. Like, because there are so many people that are trapped in a particular way, where, whether it's a relationship or a work relationship, or it's a internal dialogue they have about themselves, like they just feel suffocated. So how did you, how did you approach this? The divorce? Well, it's the change, you know, change. How did you approach the change? Because I'm sure that this was not, I don't know, one year ago, not what you wanted. Oh, my goodness.

No. I mean, again, my parents have been married for almost 50 years. I had the best example. Don't go into it. I'm thinking that it would end this way for sure. I will say this. It's very amicable. We are both – our kids are a priority,

we are friends, we are blessed. It is hard work. And it is certainly a work in progress, because it's very, we're very early in this in the process. But I just I, well, I, I hid it for probably eight to ten years um because I didn't want it and when you love someone and you love what you've created this beautiful family you you you ignore things and I had three young kids and a career and um he was a stay-at-home dad for the entire time and And once I had kids, my oldest is just turning 18. So I just, I quit ignoring my heart and listened, listened. But I also realized that when I'm, when you, again, when you're saying things to the most important people in your life, which are my three babies. I'm saying it, but I'm not living it. And what were you saying to them? That was the conflict.

Just, um, you know, with my oldest who, who is a girl and boyfriends and, and I'm like, you know, listen, don't settle. Don't compromise. You listen to your heart. You don't go to prom with him just because you want to go to prom. You know, that's not fair to him. So I have two conversations at the same time. I'm saying this with my mouth and my words to my daughter. And in the back of my mind, I'm like, you know what, you hypocrite? So I was beating myself up for years for not being

and again it wasn't a i mean it was a fine relationship with a really really really good man this is about me not about him and so i just realized that at some point you know i know a ton of people and it's truly to each his own who stay in relationships and stay married for the kids. And honestly, you do you. I then realized that, in my opinion, I was cheating my children from seeing what I saw growing up. And that to me was irresponsible and almost unforgivable. So growing up, my dad had us memorize part of the cadet prayer at West Point that he had to recite 10,000 times during his years at West Point. And it was our mantra in our family.

Part of that prayer helped me to choose the harder right instead of the easier wrong and to never tell a half truth when the whole can be one so the harder right versus the easier wrong it is easier and safer and all those things to stay is what I was saying to myself but the harder thing in my case I knew was the right thing. I was just afraid. And of course I was afraid. You don't want to tear up your family. But it also, I didn't think, was fair to him. So I had to, and I'm preaching the harder right to my kids as well. So I had to look myself in the mirror and call myself a hypocrite because that's what I was doing.

So I had to choose, in my opinion, the harder right. And it has been so scary and so uncomfortable. But I am more and more comfortable being uncomfortable in every aspect of my life. And I'm thankful for that. And then I, you know, you're going through it. And I still have a job on national TV. And to get out there, even if I'm getting a text message, you know, an uncomfortable text message and a commercial break, maybe from an attorney. You know, who knows about my personal life? And you still have a job to do and to get out there to represent and to bring it, not just for your company, your teammates,. Um, but for me, so, um, I've been really uncomfortable and I'm okay

with it. Like I know now that I'm, I'm so much tougher than I ever thought because of this decision and for doing it the right way, which is with the, with compassion, with awareness, With compassion. Yeah. With awareness. With care for your kids. Putting your ego aside. And this is about doing it the right way for my kids. Because my husband, my ex-husband, is as important as I am. He's a wonderful father. And so put your ego aside. And you take care of those kids.

And we are, I'm so proud of us. And what we are doing. Even though it. And we are, I'm so proud of us and what we are doing, even though it's, it's, it's, it's still terribly painful. I'm 47. I was with him for 27 years. Like, I don't know anything different. What love hard, very hard. My friends, my parents, my kids, everybody, hard, almost to a fault. I wear my heart in my sleep. Oh my goodness. It's probably annoying. I know it's annoying to my kids. It's probably annoying to a lot of people, but that's all I know. What I want the next phase to look like, I don't have an exact picture. What I do know is how I want to feel. And I don't, I don't want to hold back. I don't ever want to hold back again.

I don't, I don't want to hold back and be like, Oh, you should only love this much. You should only be this passionate or this, you know, at work. If you really want to push a story that we should be airing in my opinion, then don't hold back from being, well, I don't want them to think I'm too pushy. I don't want to hold back in any aspect of my life. It is way too short and it's a cliche, but we all know even more now than ever before that it's true. So I don't want to hold back with my love and passion for living in every aspect. Yes, relationships, work, friendships, my spirituality,

I, my, my, my faith is stronger now than ever before, ever before through, through this difficulty, through the toughest season of my life, the last six months to a year. And I, my faith is stronger than ever. So for the first time, I'm not, I'm not afraid of the future because I know that I'm going to be fine. I know that God's going to take care of me, whatever it looks like. I don't know. And so if this, this idea of I'm not going to hold back, but I'm going to go for it. Oh, yeah. And so what is the, is Is it speaking truth? Is that the big one? It is speaking my truth and it excites me. I mean, I have, as I have been, you know, and I'm very private about this until now. Yay. Sorry, I, why did you make the decision to talk about it now? Like, what was that little civil war that, cause you took a pause. Yeah. Right. So how did you work

that out? Because that's, that's where the gold is. Like how you made that decision is actually what I would love for people to learn from you because you just made it. You had a principle. I want to go for it. I don't want to hold back. And like, you had a moment you could have this whole conversation, you could have done that, like 12 times. So how did you do like, take us into how you did that? Because I'm just okay now with what people think. I just don't care. And it's like, this is my life. Now it's a little bit different. Because I'm in the spotlight, you know, to an extent. Yeah. And, you know, but all of a sudden you're going on TV, you're not wearing a ring. People are saying

things, people, nothing to your face. Of course, nobody can ever, you know, even some friends, it's so funny how people just run away from that. It cracks me up. That's a story for another day. you know what I'm proud of myself and I want I yeah I want people to know that I'm okay like I'm okay taking care of me for the first time in my life and what comes with that if in in my honesty and my truth and speaking is, is a little scary to some, it's just not to me anymore. And what I have found as I've started to speak just to friends, just to a neighbor the other day, literally, that's all, that's all it was. It wasn't anything public, but then the neighbor starts to cry and says, she's in the exact same position. And then that broke my heart. And I thought, see, by me having, call it what you want, the, I don't know, courage, the diarrhea of the mouth,

call it what you want, to say what I am going through, just potentially helped that woman. And so now maybe she just has someone to talk to. That's it. When we all, for something this personal, keep it inside because it is scary and it is uncomfortable and it can affect so, and it is affecting so many lives of people in my family. That hurts me. later, my kids, that I wasn't being true to myself despite what I pushed to them. So, so I, it's a, yeah, it was a split second. I thought about it, of course, before speaking with you, but I trust myself now more than ever to know that I don't know exactly what I'm going to say about anything. Sometimes it's my live shot with Stephen A. Smith talking about the NBA. I don't know exactly what I'm going to say. Something hopefully smart will come out and I won't get fired for it. But even with this, things that are more important than sports, I trust myself, I trust my heart that it's in the right place,

that when I do speak about it, whenever I chose to do it, which happens to be right now, it's crazy, that I'm going to do it in a kind way and in a truthful way for me and for the decisions that I've made and for people around me. And I just know that by being honest, honest, while considering others' feelings and being careful and considerate of that, the more I've spoken about it, the lighter I have felt and the more proud because I know now all those tough lessons from growing up and even the name calling at Carmel High School, the people shunning me for not being black enough or being biracial or having different opinions on social media politically in so many ways, like all the hatred that has come through those things has toughened me up to the point now where I know that I can speak my truth. I'm going to be okay.

Because if I survived all that stuff through the years as a kid, um, then I can, I can do this and maybe lead the way for others to be more comfortable speaking about it and then making their own decisions and knowing to trust themselves. So many of us don't trust ourselves. And I'm finding that it's pretty cool to be honest with yourself. I mean, so what I'm hearing is part of your journey has been mapped against your principles, doing the harder right, and the other philosophies that we haven't talked about yet. But you've been mapping your thoughts and your words and your actions against your principles, and you've been mapping your thoughts and your words and your actions against your principles and they've been strong, but your actions have not always been consistent,

which nobody's are, you know, like we're trying our very best, but then it got to a place where you're like, okay. And so now that this, this path is really about vulnerability. It's about courage. You don't have one without the other. It's about truth and honesty, you know, and then it's about being there for others. Right. That's the compassion piece. And oddly enough, you know, the hallway or the conversation with your neighbor is that there's been some research in psychology that we think that this might be a play when somebody is saying something that's really hard and they're vulnerable and they're rattling, you know, with all the emotion that you can imagine. And the person across from them is just showing up compassionately, but in it with them, but not like rattling at the same time. Okay. So they're compassionately feeling and they're in it with the person, but they're maintaining their integrity, their space, if you will.

That becomes almost like this, you know, have you ever seen like a wild Mustang that's kind of out of control? And then when it comes around another alpha horse, that it can settle down a little bit. So you get these two alpha experiences. One is rattling, you know, the emotional experience and the other one is just grounded and present that we start to settle and heal. And so there's a healing that comes. So you offered, you were the grounding force for your friend and you've had the other experiences of people in your life where you're rattling and they were grounded and a healing we think comes from that. And I'm not saying healing like in a woo-woo way. I'm actually

saying like a recalibration of the way our physiology experiences the quote-unquote difficult emotion. it. I am doing a form of healing, but then to see others. And that is that, that compassionate person in me where I, I, people laugh at me. Some of my friends like you can't fix them. You cannot save the world, save, stop it. I'm like, I know, but look at that one person, the cliche, right? That one person. And by me being a little bit open, then maybe we both can heal in a, in a, in a small way. I do. I'm just I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid to go there.

And if that person thought, oh, my God, look at that woman. She's she's got this career and she's this and that. And her husband has been home. And I mean, people are going to judge and say what they want. No one knows my truth. I know my truth. He knows our truth. And our kids, you know, know enough right now. And, and if nothing else, know that, know that we are being true to ourselves. I have to

tell you my turning point though. And it was, it was last summer and I was upset in the kitchen late at night and I was emotional and my 17 year old daughter came downstairs midnight I'm like what are you doing awake and I tried you know she's like mom are you okay are you okay and I and I was like yeah you know you make up a lie about why you're crying and she looked at me and she put her hands on my shoulders. And she said, Mom, it's okay. It's so hard to even, I mean, she's a kid. She looked at me and she said, it's okay, Mom. You have to take care of yourself.

Because if you don't take care of yourself, you can't take care of us. You need to take care of you and be happy. And I had no idea that, you know, of course kids pick things up. Even though it was a happy home, there's still things they pick up. You know, there's nothing tangible to point the finger and say, oh, my gosh, this happened. We're done. No. Which makes it harder sometimes, you know.

And so when my child said that and did that, that took courage. And so who am I to not be truthful to myself as the example, as the mother? It was a moment I'll never forget. So, you know, just like you said with Stephen A. Smith, you don't know exactly how it's going to go. I had no idea. And I don't prepare like in that way for these conversations. And I think you didn't either. So this spontaneity led to something. Sorry, I'm crying you know like because I'm just letting it flow and what you're doing right now is a model for so many people to be honest to be courageous to say the thing that is truthful even when it's hard and to do the things that are hard even when um the easier way the hard right I can't keep

preaching that if I'm not living it. No, you can't. You become a total phony, you know, a complete phony. Yeah. That's awesome. Okay. So I, you know what? There's so many questions I have for you, but I don't, I almost feel like this is the

work. Like this was, this was the most important part of our conversation that we could have. Right. Which is like, okay, if you could pass on to the next generation, whether it's your children or the rest of the folks in our community, like what would you hope for them? You just lived it. Yeah. Just peace, peace.

And our hearts as people and as humans. And when you have that inside, which I really do, like I'm not all the way there, of course, but every day I feel it a little more. And if you have that in your heart, it translates in every other aspect. So I absolutely love my job. I'm still living my dream. I was 12 years old when I said I wanted to be on ESPN and be on SportsCenter. And look, like how many people get to live their exact dream, even through all the ups and downs and the naysayers and the hate and the self-doubting and the fear and the ups and downs and being removed from a job and then being brought back up. Oh my goodness. I'm living it. You know, I wanted to say one thing is that I think part of your narrative or your storyline

is that you turned down ESPN. Do I have this right? You turned it down when you were pregnant with your second child? Yep. I wanted to get into that, like, because there's another harder right that you demonstrated in that one. That's what that was. Yeah. I want to, can you keep going on that? Like, how did you make that decision? Because let me go upstream for just a minute, right? Is that this is, I think the best I can sort out kind of a path towards mastery, right? And part of this path is we've got some principles and we've got some mental skills and we've got some technical skills and we're trying to match those things up as often as we can.

But as we go further down the path, there are traps and cliffs and there's alligator pits and there's sand, there's all different types of real challenges that get progressively more challenging. Right. The further we go into the into the path and making small micro choices is really how this thing works. And right. The micro choices that lead to, you know, different trails and different paths. So that was a micro choice that actually looks like from the outside a big choice. But it was I want to know how you did that as well.

It was a big decision. It was a huge decision. And I and I, you know, again, when you start talking about an opportunity or your dream of working at ESPN in 1984, and then you go to high school, college, graduate, five-year plan in 1995. And then in 2004, you know, you're married and you started your family. And I had a great job in Washington, D.C., Baltimore that I loved. And then you get the call you're waiting for. And it's ESPN. It's the worldwide leader. And they finally want me because for years they had three, four years. They said, here's why she's not ready. Here's why she's not ready to agents, to mentors, keep working, keep working, keep working. And they were right. Absolutely. Wasn't ready, but get the call. And then I go up there and I auditioned and

it was fine. And I was so pregnant. I was like, you guys, you know, whatever, take it or leave it. But deep down, of course you want it. And then I, it was a couple of weeks and I got the call and the offer and I just, it didn't feel right because, because I, I'm, I have a 21 month old at home. I'm two weeks from giving birth to number two and I'm going to go up there. Stuart Scott, the late great Stuart Scott, who I miss every day more now than ever, because he would have a lot of wonderful advice to give me right now with my with what I've, you know, my recent changes. And he was just such a dear friend in every way. He said, listen, when you get to ESPN someday, like you better be ready. Talk about an alligator pit and just just you'll get eaten alive. And so I listened to Stuart re--evaluated, sitting here looking at this huge belly, what's to come? And I also wanted a third kid. This is only number two. And I just said,

my whole life I've preached to my parents, it's family first. You choose your family first and you'll never regret it. And I knew in my heart that by going to ESPN then, that was not choosing my family first. So I took a chance and turned them down. And my agent at the time said, are you insane? Nobody turns down ESPN. You will get blackballed. They will never call you back. And I just had to take a chance because I knew that I would be selling out and not following through with, with, with what I preached and what my parents preached to us. And they proved it, that family is a part. So I turned it down and signed a new three-year contract

where I was in D.C., Baltimore, and had a third child. And in 2007, they called back. And it was a better offer. And I had my third child. Yeah, cool. But it was a risk. I just knew that if you – I really felt that if you chose family first, that you would never regret it. Lucky. So you've, well, no, it's philosophy and then the hard

choice and for the, for the right, you know, so this is, this is the, this is the underlying philosophy of your life, right? Yeah. That's playing out again and again and again. But you know how many times I failed. I mean, countless embarrassing, embarrassing moments, things I'm not proud of, but things that I know have gotten me to where I am today. And I've said this, I've said this a lot to myself recently.

I am right where I am supposed to be at this moment with, you know, hearts a little bit hurting, a little bit bruised, um, work who, you know, good today, who knows tomorrow. That's the nature of the industry that I'm in. Um, but I'm right where I'm supposed to be. And I'm able to handle these things because of that junk in the past. Um, so that's why I'm not afraid of whatever the future holds, because I know I'll be okay. And that comes from what? Where does that knowing or that sense come from? Is that from a spiritual framework? Is that from the history that you have behind you that you have figured it out at each step of the way? Like, where does that maybe both or something else? Where does it come from? But it is it is looking back at, at my resume, so to speak,

and, and, and the timeline of events, the ups and the downs and the painful parts and the scary parts and the awesome, so many, so many awesome parts and the people that have helped me through it. Um, but like I said, my faith is stronger than ever. I grew up Catholic. I, I, I love the traditions of the Catholic church. I love that I can go anywhere in the world and walk into a Catholic church and know what to do and know the songs and know how to feel and the smell. But it's so much deeper than that right now. It's spiritual and it's my own relationship with God, which I was never comfortable. I've always had it, but I was never comfortable talking about it. And I still think for me, it's pretty private.

But I know in my heart, on top of of my experience it's more important than my experiences that if he has taken care of me to this point through maybe some stupid decisions and some ups and downs and I just I know he's got my back and he always has even when I didn't think I deserved it I didn't think I deserved God's love especially as I'm making decisions recently with ending my marriage. That was huge to get through that and to realize God's not going to be mad at you if you're being true to yourself. And so the spirituality and the faith part is what's driving me more than anything now. And it took a long time to get there. Never too late. I think I'm proof never too late.

So what are the ways that you practice to be present, to be stay optimistic, to maintain a sense of positive approach in life? Like how do you practice? What are some of the habits that you have that are part of your daily rhythms? That has changed a lot recently because I've always just kind of run around like a chicken with my head cut off, like literally hair on fire nonstop. So exhausting. But I just, I love life and I want to do it all and try it all and see it all. And I, and I knew that I wasn't either, you know? And I want to instill that in my kids and to not have the fear to go try and to fall on your face and get right back up. Um, so now I, I, I, I finally learned to be still learning. I haven't learned I'm learning

to be still. And that includes the meditation, which has been very intimidating to me forever. But the last year I've done it. Um, I do it daily, even if it's only for three or four minutes, because sometimes I can't slow my brain down enough to do that. And I used to beat myself up for only doing three or four minutes, but it's three or four minutes that I wasn't doing in the past and prayer. Um, but also just not holding back my feelings and what's going through my mind with a couple of people that I'm very close to and my parents. And that has just helped me, I don't know, just be okay and stop and slow down and then compartmentalize. I'm very good at that. To go drive to Bristol and to walk in that studio and focus just on that for those however many hours that I'm there and while I'm live on TV. The compartmentalizing I think can be dangerous. And we can do that way too much personally in our personal lives and probably professionally too, but I care more

about the personal. And so I've had to uproot that stuff in the back of my mind and bring it forward and deal with it and handle it. But just to to be present and to be I am. Happy to a fault, I literally glass half full all the way. I just feel like there's so much good in this world. I mean, even through the coronavirus stuff, I see, I see some terrible things, but I see so many acts of kindness right now. I see people actually smiling at each other because it's like, oh, humans, this is, this is really cool. I just think it's a happiness is a choice. And I say it to my kids every day and they hate it. But Stuart Scott told me that when he was dying. And I couldn't believe how positive he was. Despite, he never got a prognosis. He never

got a full, you've got three months to live. He refused. He didn't let the doctors ever tell him that ever. I admired that. And he said, you know, he just didn't want to have a number in his head. You just go live. And I was like, look at you. You don't even feel good. You just came from chemo. You're doing P90X and you're taking your daughter to Paris for the weekend and you're living. And he said, I can dwell on what's probably going to much has been given to me through my family and through people who have looked out for me and through God and through myself. Happiness is a choice. And I have chosen now to also surround myself with others who think like me in that way. Not solely in that way, but I need people who want to be happy and want to live life. And that doesn't mean I don't have bad days. Oh my gosh, that's my kids.

I, you know, I'm trying to not scream at them as much, you know, through the homeschooling thing. But I, I, um, there's, it's a choice and I, and I don't want to surround myself with people who choose to look at the negative because it's just, it, it affects me. And I, and I'm choosing this. It's a skill as well. So it starts with the choice and then there's some sort of decision that you're going to make. Like I'm going to go that path. Like I'm going to make those choices. And the skills are remarkably simple, right? Is when you notice that you're being critical of self or critical of others.

Hey, how about that's leading to like a non- non joyful state, you know? And so flipping that around and finding what's good and appreciating what could be good. And then one of the, it was a meditation I did today. That's it's just a great reminder is that when we focus on one breath at a time, it is a reminder that we have the ability to even create a state of peace inside ourselves. And that is part and parcel of joy and happiness. So just one breath actually can change the way that we experience the present moment. And we are responsible. We're completely responsible for our state.

And so it requires micro choices. And before that requires some sort of decision. Like, okay, I want my life. These are the principles I want. Like joy is obviously another part of your happiness as part of, yeah. Right. Yeah. Very cool. But it's a choice. It's a choice to look at it that way. I do not like where I live. I do not like Connecticut. I do not like new England. I don't like cold weather. I don't like snow.

I don't like high taxes. I don't like any of it. But I know why I'm here. I love my job. There's been so much good that has come with my children. And you know what? With my decision personally and to face some things I didn't want to face. And that again is a choice. And I am determined to find joy. I'm determined to be happy and not to ignore the bad because you got to even it's available in the breath and you can't notice the sun without having darkness to compare it to. You can't notice joy without some suffering and pain. It's all like super related and we need all of it. And, and we need you people like you to say and be about the truth. And so what a refreshing, like refreshing, life-giving conversation about like, Hey, listen, I've been through some hard times my whole life. And I've been through some great times throughout my life and I'm choosing to be truthful. This is a privilege. It's a privilege to be even asked to talk about it. My, myself, frankly, I'm like, there's a million people that you could talk to and have talked to. And so I feel like I have a responsibility, you know?

Yeah. Well, that's awesome. I didn't see it that way. I saw it as a privilege to have the conversation. I mean, responsibility, just to be honest. That's all. That's exactly right. Because you know what? It's so fair because I think you're the first person that has actually said it that way. And there are, both dark and light sides, that people are going to walk away like, oh, look, those are the people that have it all together. And oh, look, those people that are so successful, like it's all the light and I'm a mess. And how could I ever be like that? And the message is, no, no, no. Listen, first of all, be you and be true to yourself, know yourself and be true to yourself and have the courage and the mental skills to

be able to do that. And then hopefully these conversations are meant to create a community of people that are being honest with their approach to life and they're doing it principle based. In 2015, I was asked to give the commencement address at my alma mater at Indiana, and I was so honored and I couldn't believe they asked me and I had struggled terribly there academically. My entire the fact that I have a degree that they just threw the degree at me, like, get out of here. We are done with you. Get out. And I said to my dad, what do I say? Five days before the speech, I couldn't bring myself to figure out the right thing. And he said, You know what, when people see you on TV, what do they see? They see this happy, smiling face with perfect makeup and clothes. You get

to talk to LeBron James and Steph Curry and, you know, Drew Brees and all. And three beautiful kids. And what a perfect life. Look at her. And he said, I dare you, Sage. I dare you. Show them the other side, the imperfect side, what it took to get there. Because people see this on the TV screen and it's so easy. He's like, do you have the courage to share the other side? And that was kind of the beginning of when I decided, when I chose to go there. And the feedback I got helped me. It helped them, these kids who picture that this is so far from perfect. And I'm proud of it. And I own that. And so to speak your truth, thanks to my father for pushing me to be

uncomfortable. And I was shaking as I told my story about how I almost flunked out of Indiana University. But look, I'm still achieving my dream. So there's nothing close to perfect and I own it. That is awesome. I mean, it's so good. there's nothing close to perfect and I own it. That is awesome. I mean, it's so good. It's so good in so many ways because it was one of the, let's call it bigger steps that you took on this journey, like that led you to what happened five months ago as well. Like it's, it's all part of that progression. I'd love to meet your dad. Your dad was a disruptor. Oh yeah. Your dad was what he was the first African-American to play at West Point. Do I have that right? and it's a black and white and there's all those white faces and a one black face in the middle so look at a football team today on any level whether it's peewee through the nfl probably 70 black at that time he was the only one of the stadiums that he would go into and the names that

they would call him the things they would say um but but he he was a steal. His father was a Buffalo soldier. His he he wasn't backing down. He was actually drafted by the Detroit Lions, even though they knew he had to fulfill his military obligation. They drafted him anyway. He was a Hall of Hall of Famer now, All-American. And so that was the other thing is through my struggles recently and, you know, career wise. But personally, I'm like, are you kidding me? What my parents went through, my father in particular at army, but even with their marriage and, and, and being shunned because they were interracial. Again, my, my problems, it's not all, it's not, it's, it's really compared to them. And I know you shouldn't compare,

but it has provided me strength to know that I've got the good genes to get through this stuff. That's interesting because there is a genetic component to resiliency, to a lot of things. Yeah. Okay. So how about this? The Steele family is? Can I use more than one word? Loyal. strong, loving,

and proud. Okay. Four words. Awesome. Four words. Awesome. I am. I am strong.

It all comes down to? Choosing to be happy. Epic. I mean, what a great summary. And if there's one mental skill that you would want people to know, to learn, to be better equipped with, whether it's optimism or being calm or confidence or meditation or imagery or controlling what's in your control or trusting yourself. Like those are all skills. Every one of those we can build, right? What would you hope would be the one or two skills that you'd say, man, if we got these things right? To have the courage to speak your truth.

And it sounds, I don't know, it sounds very cliche to me, but I'm living it right now in every way. And every time I do it, which sometimes it's just quietly daily in my own mind, or sometimes it's talking to Michael Gervais or sometimes, you know, I mean, sometimes one time I got one shot at this, but or on TV, asking the natural follow up question instead of what I should ask, you know, trusting myself and just speaking my truth. It is so liberating. And it's helping me. I finally am starting to feel that peace, even though I have no idea what's coming next. But to see how it's helping others by just having conversations and showing your vulnerability is just awesome. So I'm so blessed to have come from a family that has encouraged me throughout. They've certainly been there with me through all of this recently. And just being okay. Being okay being you. It is so much easier.

It is so much easier. And, you know, it's easier on the other side of it. It's hard when you're in those moments of vulnerability, which is what you're talking about, like speaking your truth and being courageous, you have to practice it. And if you know, you can wake up in the morning and make a declarative statement, like I'm going to, I'm going to be about courage and honesty and all that. And then when it comes down to the moment where you have a choice, only you make that decision, you know, and you could, if you wanted, like in a fun way, you could score yourself on a daily basis. Like, how'd I do, you know, like on the micro little choices, like how'd I do?

And it's really hard to do that though. If you don't have clear principles that you're mapping up against, you know, and it's harder, right? For me, it's, it's literally, it's the harder, right? That's it is. Yeah. It's really annoying, but it is the hard way because we all know, I believe deep down 99% of the time we know what's right.

Do you believe people are fundamentally good? I do. You do. 1000%. I believe in evil. There is evil in this world for sure. But I believe everyone has, there are people that there's a couple people at work that I listen, I would be fine if I never saw them again.

However, I have to. And deep down, what has helped me, despite me not agreeing with some of the way they do things, the way they talk to people, I know that deep down, there is a reason usually when someone is unhappy, when someone is negative, when someone is sad, when someone is hateful. There's usually not an excuse, but a reason. What is that? Where does that pain come from? So I try to approach them in a different way, knowing that they probably don't want to be this way, but they don't know any other way right now. Yeah. So that is the argument that underneath the prickly behavior, the blaming, the agitation, the frustration, the quick to temper, the

scoffing, all of that underneath is because they are protecting themselves and they're protecting themselves from being hurt, being let down because most people, your argument, most people or all people come from an earnest space. Yeah. And so that is the argument that people are born inherently good. You can also make an argument that people are a blank slate, tabula rasa, and then the world molds people. Um, and then the other is that no people are born inherently evil and believe it or not, that's actually, and this all gets, always gets me in trouble, but that's where the, uh, Christian faith orientates is that you need forgiveness. You need to have, you know,

a consecration. You need to, you need to go through a rite of passage to be healed. And so, um, I haven't heard many people talk about that lately. So, right. Yeah. So, okay. So, um, listen, I, there's one other thing I want to hit you with is you've seen the inside of locker rooms, inside of cultures, you have a framework that you work from about what organizations, what is it about organizations that cause them to have great talent, but not win as opposed to organizations that have good talent and they seem to continually win. If you would just point out, I never asked the questions this way, but I'd love if you could point out without names or any of that, like, what are some of the things that don't work inside of cultures? And maybe even a story holding the innocent availed, like a story like that you say, this is why teams don't win.

They don't do well. They don't reach their potential. Yeah. I believe it comes down to leadership, which is something that has been drilled into me from day one with my dad and his military background as an army officer. It is leadership. And most companies don't have good leadership. The ones that I've been associated with, I can't say that, but I think we all can see it on a macro level that, that leadership is there because it's, it's easy to dictate from the top. It's easy to write an email, uh, instead of pick up the phone, write an email and tell people what to do. And especially once you get to a certain level and you, and you haven't lived it. Um, I, I, uh, my, my, my favorite college basketball team, which is, you know,

my alma mater a few years ago, they were, uh, they were in an amazing position, um, to advance. I don't want to give too many details. It'll get, it'll give away too many names, but to advance, um, post-season. And, um, I found out afterwards, I mean, watching the game and I was like, what is up? What is going on with this team? I found out afterwards that the night before this huge game, coach had them out there at 1130 at night, running drills, running drills, changing things up. Later, one of the star players told me, private, you know, chilled out conversation. We knew that night before we weren't going to win because if, if, if the coach is trying to change everything, I did it another night before 1130 at night, like we're this far in the season.

If you're trying to make this change now, we're in trouble and they are kids and they knew he has some good leadership, had some good leadership skills. But, but when it came time, when the rubber meets the road, what happened? He panicked. And then he set the tone and the rest was history. And that breaks my heart. Those kids don't get another chance. You know what I mean? And is it just basketball? Yes. But for these kids, their life and you're the leader. That's who they're looking up to. Like you, that's, that's what, that's why you make the big bucks, right? That's what comes with this job. And, and when we, I guess, listen, you know, we all have, have, have these fears, right? Even

when you are in charge, but you have got to handle that responsibility the right way. I said to one of my bosses recently, within the last six months, I was like, listen, I know that you believe this and this and this. I said, we don't understand. Why don't you come in with us? Come, come show us, show us what you don't like, what we're doing wrong. I don't have time for that. It's for somebody else. I go, no, no, no, no, no. You're the leader. I want to hear you and see you, most importantly, come down in the trenches. Show me what I'm not understanding, and then we will win, hopefully. He never came. So that's a choice.

Maybe it's harder to show up, right? Harder, right? But when you do that, when you make that decision, that is leadership. Leadership is admitting when you're wrong, not just because you're the boss and you're right. And I have literally I have and I'm not trying to be negative. It's just a fact. In 25 years in this business, I haven't been around many great leaders. I haven't. And that breaks my heart because the thing is, it's they have they have chosen good talent and they have chosen good people to have around and also leading along with them. And so, and all of us are too proud to not do our jobs, right? You're going to pick up the slack and

do two people's jobs to make sure the team wins. But that leader, leader in air quotes, continues to get away with not leading because they've got good people who are going to cover their butt. I love this part of the conversation because the NFL stands for not for long. Do you know I've been in the NFL for nine seasons? With the Seahawks. Nine years. This is my ninth season. That's unheard of. You know why though? It's Coach Carroll. And so there's not many coaches that really understand how to bring the best out of people and create winning cultures. And I don't mean winning from the outcome. I mean, winning from within. And when you get both, it's a total, it's amazing.

But leadership is rare. And that is the reason. I don't know, and when you get both, it's a total, it's amazing, but, uh, leadership is rare. And that's, that is the reason I don't know if we've talked about this, but he and I built an online program together and it's pulling out the lessons from science, the lessons from psychology, the lessons from creating a culture, all the hardships that go into getting those insights. And we put it into an eight week online course. And I, Oh, I know it's, it feels like, I mean, I've never met him. I'm dying to meet him. Oh, you haven't. No. Oh, well, okay. Well, once, once the stuff happens and we're back into kind of the rhythm, hopefully of, of sport, um, whenever you name it and we'll, we'll make sure that that takes place.

I would love to listen. Yeah. Oh yeah. The two of you together. Oh my goodness. Oh, it's really good. If I don't say so myself. That's the point though, is he, he has, I mean, from a distance, it's obvious. It's obvious to see how his players play for him and respond. That's what I look at. That's what I watch is, is, is how the players respond. How about Sean Lynch coming back? Like, how about that like it it was amazing like and because it's it's been public that you know there was tension at some point you know with with a crew of players and for marshawn to come back like it is awesome of all people to come back i mean and he's a real deal now he is the real deal it's amazing i just and as parents and as and you don't

have to be in a in a as a boss you don't have to be a vice president or a news director to lead though, because we all do it to each other every single day. And how do you choose, you know, how do you, how do you choose to handle a certain situation when someone's looking or not looking even more? Awesome. Okay. So last question. Yes.

What, how do you think about mastery? Like, what do you think about mastery? Like, what do you think about it? How do you define it or articulate it? Or how do you get your arms around the concept? I, the word kind of scares me. Um, because to me, mastery, and I haven't looked it up. Maybe I should like Google the Merriam Webster definition of mastery, but that makes it sound like perfection. Like it's, I've mastered it. I'm complete.

I'm done. And uh-uh. Oh, my goodness. Look at all I just said over the last however long hour. I mean, I am so far, but I don't think I want to master anything. You know, if I'm listening to this, I'm going, yeah, yeah, yeah. It scares me too. And then I think you're on the path.

It's the path of like mastering self, the path of mastering, you know, the insights of the world, like by being truthful and getting to the truth of it. Like I hear it and I go, oh, wait, hold on. Like you're in it. You're totally on it. And so it's not about, for me, at least, it's not about like, okay, got it. I am the best in the world. It's not that by any means. It's like, it's the path of understanding the nuances of what makes you work or makes your craft come to life. And potentially sometimes both. I think, yes, yes. So, so that makes me think differently. But I think initially I, I, you, I avoided the word when I, when I thought about your question, I avoided the phrase work-life balance, balance, balance. He makes it sound like, okay, it's all perfect. 50, 50. No, this week, like I've been a terrible parent, so I've been an okay employee, you know? There's a bad, no.

So, but master, you're right. I have, what's a good sentence to use it in then? I have mastered. See, but that's where I think you get tripped up. I don't know if I've mastered anything. And, but I think that I am working towards the deep, rich understanding. You know, the artistic

expression of fill in the blanks. But you think you will get there? No, but I'm committed. I'm committed to the path. And I have moments where it's brilliant. You know, when it all kind of folds together in an eloquent way, I have those moments. And so complete mastery would probably be more frequently expressing myself artistically in those environments. But I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in the path. The path for me is the goal. The path is the goal. Whoa had. I was like 19 years old and I was really sparring with a, um, it was a Jesuit, uh, gosh, what

was his ranking in the Catholic church? We were sparring. He was at a very religious family, my family. And, um, he was over for dinner and he was a senior, um, person in the, in the Catholic church. It'll come to me as his title and we're sparring and we're going back and forth. And I was taught by Jesuits as well. And I said, okay, so look at that sunset.

I said, so where's God in the sunset? And he says, I said, so wait, how'd I put it? I said, God is in that sunset, right? And he says, no. He says, the sunset is in God. I said, oh, game changer. Oh my. I had to think about that one. Same as like the goal is the path, right? The path is unfolding. It's unpredictable. It's unknown.

And it's beautiful in all of those unpredictable ways. And so, yeah. Be comfortable with navigating that path and knowing that, and the trust thing comes back up too. So I don't know what the path is going to lead me to, but I trust based on everything that it will lead me to the right place because we've worked and we've done the work to make the right decision, hopefully come crunch time, right? The right place is right now. It's always now it's always here. We're supposed to be right. It's here. Yeah. Full circle. Okay. I love it. Okay. Where can people find you? Oh, gosh. Okay. Steel at whatever, like what, what are your handles? How can we find you? Well, my kids would say, please do not go look at her Instagram because she blows this up all the time, which I do.

I'm very proud of embarrassing my kids on Instagram whenever possible because they deserve it and they deserve my love too, which they get anyway. At Sage deal is everything at Sage deal for, um, for Instagram, for Twitter. Um, and then Facebook, I don't know all of it, but it's just my name, first and last name. Yep. And then, uh, two, three E's S T E E L E. Yes, sir. Oh, it looks naked without that last D doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. There you go. Okay. And then, uh, tell me about your shows. When can we watch them? All that good stuff. When, when can they watch you on air yes um 6 p.m sports

center 6 p.m eastern time sports center usually it's just one hour six to seven depends um with all the changes lately we've been two hours five to seven um and so yeah sports center that that show that i i was 12 years old and i'm still doing it and as long as they'll have me, we'll see. You are an emblem for truth, integrity. It's awesome. What a rich, wonderful conversation. Thank you. Thank you for bringing all of you into this conversation and reminding us about the journey is prickly and hard and requires vulnerability and courage. Thank you. Thank you for having me and for allowing me, I guess, to speak it. I didn't know I was going to go where I went and you pulled it out of me and I'm thankful. So I really appreciate it. Awesome. Okay. So let's see each other soon. Wait, I'll come to you. You don't want to come

to Connecticut. I'll come to California. There you go. Awesome. Okay. All the best. Thank you. You as well. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send

out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors. And we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at finding mastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone.

The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening.

Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.