Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Cliff Avril, Retired NFL Defensive End

Episode Date: March 6, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Cliff Avril, a former NFL defensive end.Cliff played college football at Purdue and was drafted in the third round of the 2008 NFL Draft by the Detroit Lions.He also played for the Seattle Seahawks, where he won Super Bowl XLVIII and made a Pro Bowl.Cliff and I met at the Seahawks and I had the pleasure of catching up with him at the NFL Combine this past week in Indianapolis.He recently retired after a great 10-year run in the league and is searching for what to do next.What’s his purpose now that the craft he’s dedicated more than half his life to is no longer the priority?Transitions can be tricky for all of us so I think you’ll really appreciate Cliff’s honesty, his willingness to be vulnerable, and his overall approach to life._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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my kids, but wake up out of bed and have a purpose. All right. welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais, and by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind this podcast, behind these conversations, is to learn how the extraordinaries think and do, how they organize their internal world and their external life, to understand what they're searching for, what they're driven by. Basically, you want to understand their psychological framework, the path that led them to now, and the mental skills that they've used to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive

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So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now this week's conversation is with Cliff Averill,

a former NFL player, that's the National Football League, who is a member of the Seattle Seahawks team who won Super Bowl XLIX. And not only was he a member, he actually set a record by scoring only 12 seconds into the game. Pretty cool. Cliff and I met at the Seahawks and I had the pleasure of catching up with him at the NFL Scouting Combine this past week in Indianapolis. And he recently retired after a great 10-year run in the league. And he's now in the transition process of searching for what to do next. What is his purpose now that the craft that he's dedicated more than half of his life to is no longer available? I mean, think about that. You dedicate half of your life to a craft,

and it's no longer available. So the tone and texture of this conversation, it's beautiful, it's striking, it's real, and it's authentic. And all of us go through transitions. We all do. And that's at the center of this conversation. Transitions can be tricky. And I think you'll really appreciate Cliff's self-awareness, his courage to explore, and his deep commitment to purpose and meaning, and basically his overall approach to life. It's extraordinary. And so with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Cliff Averill. Cliff, how are you? I am great, man. How are you today?

Great. We're in Indianapolis. Yes. The NFL Combine. In a hotel room, by the way. That's how it goes often, isn't it? You know what's funny about this Combine is, okay, it's cold out. Freezing. But how often have you been outside for the last week?

You know what? I just went outside for the first time, actually, earlier today. Because there's just like this crazy network of tunnels and tubes and whatever to get to all these different buildings. You know, Indianapolis did a great job of trying to keep you inside, especially during the winter months. You know, I actually went to school right up the road, Purdue, which is about an hour away. And my wife is from India, and we've come down.

And the city's grown a lot, actually, since my heydays out here. Okay. How many years were you in the league? I was in the league 10 years. 10 years. How many Pro Bowls? Just one. You said just.

Just. Well, I feel like I should have been a few times. Okay. So there's a little bite in there, right? Yeah, exactly. Actually, one surprises me. Yeah. You know, being able to watch you up close for what was it like six seven years or

something about about five years six years yeah yeah and so being able to watch how you operate um both on the field and then in the locker room you know they missed it yeah i like to think that too and you know what's crazy is like while i'm playing and and while i'm in the midst of all that stuff i'm not i'm like oh it doesn't matter it. It doesn't, you know, as long as we're winning and all that good stuff. No, I believe that for you. But did you really want, did you have any bite to be like in the Pro Bowl?

No, well, there's a couple times where I'm like, man, there's no question I'm going to make it. But you know, I was never really that household name. I'm like, oh, no question I'm going to make it. Then I don't. Then I kind of got numb to it, honestly. Like, I'm just not going to make it it it is what it is type of thing but after the fact when you're done and you're retired you're like man i wish i've got a couple more pro balls or i wish i would have

won the the the mvp of the super bowl but during the process and during during those times i was just like man i'm just happy to win these games i'm just happy to to be a part of what we have here which is what we had there which was real special to me at the seahawks yes it was special time it was but it was even more special for me because of how my career started right um i was in detroit for five years i may have won in that five-year span maybe 15 games right i went oh and 16-16 as a rookie. So for me, like, I was appreciating all the winning, you know what I mean? Because it was new to me and it was fun. And, you know, guys start, you know, talking crazy in the locker room.

I'm like, listen, fellas, like, the grass is not green on the other side. Like, it's way worse. Like, myself, it might be we've experienced that. Yeah, Michael Bennett. other side like it's it's way worse like myself it might be we've experienced that you know that yeah michael bennett we've we've we've experienced losing in the nfl and this is a completely different ball game i love it you know it's like just a nod to what coach carol john schneider you know have created both from a talent perspective and then a culture perspective and then the x's and o's i feel like you know, that's the candy, you know, the core of what they've created, the human beings that they select. And then the culture to amplify people.

I agree. Now, I'm biased. I'm in it and I love it. No, but I agree, though. Like, I think the way Coach Carroll and John Snyder kind of run that organization is amazing. It's so much fun. Now, I think it's a trap as well. And I'll get to the trap here in a second.

But I think it's so much fun for veteran players. It's so much fun if you're one of the starters. You can enjoy the process. Now, when I say it's a trap, it's a trap for young players because they get lost in thinking all the rah-rah and having fun, but they forget they're here for a job. You still have to get your job done in order for this whole situation to work and for it to be fun. And sometimes I think young players can get lost in the music playing and shooting hoops for meetings and they get lost and tend to, Oh, I'm good. No,

no, we still here to work. Once you cross those lines, you got to go out there and make some things happen, you know? So, uh, that's why I think it's a trap for young players,

but for veteran players, amazing situation to be in. For true professionals. Yes. It's an amazing place. And then, but the have guys like you in the locker room that understand what a true pro is and to groom from the inside out like as a i mean what an asset you were to the to the whole thing appreciate it appreciate it yeah

and and what and you know what coach carol taught me the most and i never processed it like this before um getting to seattle was the whole you know you're only as strong as your weakest link piece right because a lot of times for veterans, when they draft, because every year I was in Seattle, they drafted a D lineman. And a lot of times for veterans, that's nerve wracking. So you don't want to help that young guy take your job. You don't want to help that young guy, you know, get you traded or anything like that.

But in Seattle, I found it to be more motivating for me to bring these young players along. And it pushed me to keep grinding hard, too, because I knew what these young players can do. I knew they were their draft picks and all that stuff. So it pushed me to take my game to another level as well. So I took it as, you know, motivation type of thing as I also helped these young players develop. Can you talk about iron sharpens iron? Yes, I thought.

No, that's that's the real thing about iron sharpens iron? Yes. I thought, no, that's, that's the real thing. Iron sharpens iron. Mike B was Michael Bennett was probably the one guy that, that got me playing at a pro bowl level. Although we are the best of friends, we are the ultimate competitors, right? We're always, you know, I want to see him succeed at the same time i know his uh his how how much he succeeds is going to push me to get to that level and vice versa so we were always battling each other day in and day out from film study like we'd call each other at like we'd text each other at 11 o'clock at night like bro did you see this he's like yeah i've seen that earlier today like dang i'm a whole half day behind you know so uh know, we really motivate each other,

but not only just Michael Bennett, we had Sherm, we had Earl, we had Cam. Like when I first got to Seattle, that was the big, the big thing for me was like, they already have a great core group of guys. How do I fit into this? How did you fit in? Because you fit in like a staple, you fit in like one of the core. It took a while, though. So walk me through that. I don't know this part of your story. So when I first got to Seattle in 2013, Super Bowl year, myself and Michael Bennett, we both were free agents. The top two defensive free agents, right? We both were coming off great years.

We were supposed to be the highest paid defensive ends coming out. So there was no way both of us would actually end up on the same team supposed to end up on the same team right yeah so we're top defensive ends whatever happens the market you know whatever they were able to get both of us there okay hold on real quick i want i want all of this story but not i don't think enough people know what a defensive end does okay so walk us through that. Okay. Defensive end's job, and depending on the system, depending on the scheme, it can be different.

But for a defensive end, for the most part, most defenses, you're supposed to set the edge, meaning you don't allow too many, you don't allow plays to get outside of you on the offensive line and the defensive line. And also getting after quarterbacks. That was my main thing. The setting the edge thing thing was cool but getting after quarterbacks is what i did that was like me finding my niche and what allowed me to play for such a long time it doesn't mean just a sack it means affecting them affecting them exactly being around their feet being around their arms making them uncomfortable making them move out of the pocket exactly it doesn't

necessarily mean sack it doesn't mean tackling them it's it's making them feel your presence every go around every time they drop back like oh man cliff almost got me on that play you know and getting into their head being around their feet making them move around in the pocket you know making them think twice about a throw you you again these are things that don't even show up in the stat book give me something only you and the quarterback would know that you've said or done like give me some of that inside between helmet to helmet stuff oh man who i don't think you talked much i didn't even talk on the field either i wasn't a talker you're you are an introvert yeah yeah right which means you gather energy from thinking like before you speak and the irony in that now i want to do media right

for someone that didn't really talk much but that but doesn't mean you don. And the irony in that now I want to do media, right? For someone that didn't really talk much. But that doesn't mean you don't have the skill. Like you've got a lot of thoughts. We know that. But you naturally gather energy from taking in information. Exactly. I like to take in information before I react. I like to take in information before I, you know, do anything.

So even on the football field, right? You know, Mike B talks a lot. A lot. Yes. And we were like yin and yang, but yet, do anything. So even on the football field, right. You know, Mike B talks a lot. A lot. Yes. And we were like yin and yang, but yet we came together so well. But like, I guess to answer your question with me and a quarterback, you know, say Tom Brady, for instance, you know, I think I sacked him maybe two times in my career, but he had so much respect for me because he knew I was on his behind every time that ball got snapped. Right. So it'd be something as simple as, you know, me taking a counter move, meaning, you know, I start up, uh, start with one rush and I end up

finishing on the opposite side of the offensive line, which is a counter move. And, you know, right before he throws it, he sees me, he sees me in his periphery and he has to kind of take a step forward and it throws the timing off. Like something like that doesn't necessarily, right before he throws it, he sees me, he sees me in his periphery and he has to kind of take a step forward and it throws the timing off. Like something like that doesn't necessarily, it's not a stat, but Tom Brady knows I just messed with him. Right. And, and he might even whisper, you almost got me there, bro. Or, you know, something simple, like, so those types of things matter, but you know, again, they're not in the stat book, but little things like that, or Aaron Rodgers, like he would wink at me.

Like if I was like, if I got close to play before. So it's a little, it's a little psych warfare in there. Just playing chess. You're playing chess out there. Yeah. That is too fun. Yeah. What do you hear Mike B say?

Like, cause he can't, he can't keep it together. Like, no, no, no. He keeps his guy. He can't keep it in. Like it's like, yeah, it's, it's, it's like organized chaos almost. Like he, he's, he's just, it's it's it's like organized chaos almost like he he's he's just the he's just he's like the big brother um that always has your back but also the loud guy that's gonna like that's what motivates him like if he's not talking trash he's probably having a bad game you know what i'm saying he's one of those guys like that

that pushes him and it allows him to to take it to another level and i've heard him say some of the craziest stuff on the football field from talking about people like he would research on quarterbacks and you know i think one time we were playing uh who was it philadelphia we're playing mark sanchez or something like that and this is me this is like one of my first years even getting to know him and playing next to him. And Mark Sanchez comes up and he tries an audible out of a play. And Mike B stands up and stands right over him, over the center, and just starts talking about his girlfriend and all these different things about his girlfriend. And I'm sitting there like, hey, bro, come back in your stance. Like he's about to snap the ball.

And literally like the same play, the same play, he like, he tattooed him, tattooed him on that play. So like, that's the type of stuff Mike B was into. Because again, that's what pushes him. That's what drives him to be the player that he is. Okay. So let's fall back into how you came into a tightly knit culture. Yes. Because that's not easy.

No. Everyone that you just talked about, Richard Sherman, Earl Thomas, Michael Bennett, they're alpha males. All of them. And they're everyone that you just talked about, Richard Sherman, Earl Thomas, Michael Bennett. They're alpha males. All of them. And as are you. And then to come into an alpha environment where they're legit, they're connected, they're tight, and you find your way. You just got to find your way. I think that – so the big thing was – so when I first got to Seattle, again, you know, myself, Michael Bennett, we both came in as free agents, top free agents. And we're signing – we're coming in, and this defense was actually already pretty stacked, right?

You had Big Red Brian. You had Chris Clemens. You had me, Bang. These guys were solid players. And when we both got here, we were used to being starters first and foremost, right? My first five years in the league, I think, other than my rookie year, I started pretty much every game. So getting to Seattle, most people don't even realize Michael Bennett and myself, we didn't start that first year.

We weren't starters. We were actually coming off the bench. And that was the biggest challenge for both of us, I think, mentally. Because that was an ego thing. It was an ego thing where, like, man, we both would look at each other like, do we make the right decision by coming here? Because, like, football, like, athletes want athletes want to play like how you penalize athletes. It's not by taking money away from them. It's by playing time because that's what we do. Right. So we weren't playing as much coming off the bench.

We're both looking at each other like, did we make the right decision? And then right around week five is where we're like, you know what? Screw this, man. We both are some ballers. Like, let's just embrace the role and find a way to make an impact on this defense. And for me, it was sack fumbles. That, like, I was always good at it. But when I realized, like, turnovers was such a, like, Coach Carroll, they preached on turnovers. So how can Cliff Averill get turnovers?

Sack fumbles. That's what I do. I get sacks. So let's add the fumbles to it, you Sack fumbles. That's what I do. I get sacks. So let's add the fumbles to it, you know? And that year I think I ended up getting either five or six sack fumbles, but like two or three of them got returned for touchdowns. Okay. So you, you knew your strength, you figured out how to access your strength inside the culture. And then you said, okay, I can't control play time. So I'm going to figure out how to add to the culture that's here.

And then in doing so, you made a massive contribution to the team. Exactly. And got more playtime. Not even more so, more playtime. I didn't realize it was a blessing in disguise, honestly, because I took less reps, but yet I was just as productive. So I got to save my body. You know what I mean? Like that's at least hindsight looking back. More efficient. Yeah, I was just as productive. So I got to save my body. You know what I mean? Like

that's at least hindsight looking back, looking back, I was more efficient and I felt better at the end of the season. So how did you do that? How did you get into that place to acknowledge those three variables rather than staying, I don't know, pissed or anxious or frustrated, whatever, like, but drill into that. Cause I think that that is something that we can all benefit from is how, how is it that you identified putting yourself in a position of control, power, influence, rather than letting the outs outside elements dictate the internal. So for me, nothing was ever given to me. So I've always had to go get it anyways, regardless of if you're the top free agent or not,

you have to earn everything that I had to earn everything I got. Why didn't you stay frustrated then or nervous or overwhelmed? Like, man, I don't know where I fit. Why didn't I stay that way is because I realized that it was my ego that was stopping me from succeeding. I love that. what's that mean though ego the ego for me my ego was playing time like i'm better than this i'm a top i'm one of the top defensive ends in this league like why ain't why why why am i not playing okay but okay so this is really interesting because you're saying the ego is i'm great. Why am I not playing? And then to translate that some way, cause you don't want to give away the I'm great thing. Right. So how did you, how did you, I don't want to say dampen it, but how did you use that motivation? Yeah. That, well,

how did you use it productively? Because you, you didn't, you never stopped saying I'm great. Is that right? Well, I never, I can honestly say I never felt as if it was one of those situations where I'm saying I'm great. I just know I deserve to play. Okay. Right. Like I know, like for me, it was like, oh, I got to prove myself again. You know what I mean?

I got to prove myself that I deserve to be here right now at this moment. I have to show people that I deserve to be here. Like that I am who I feel like I am, you know, cause there's so many things. Again, I go back to, to, to early in my career. I went over 16 new head coach the following year, new position coach. And when new coaches come in, they want to get, they want to get all, they want to get their own players in there. So I have to prove myself again right okay the following year after that my third year my d-line coach leaves and another d-line coach comes in so i have now i have to prove to my d-line coach that i deserve to be here so my whole career up into really the last three years of being in seattle it was show these people that cliff

averyl deserves to be on your team and every every day, go to work. Like, that's why I never miss practices. I never, like, I go out of my way, even as a veteran, a 10-year vet, even as a Pro Bowl player, Super Bowl, like, I never miss practice because I've always felt like I had to prove myself. Nothing was ever given to me. There's something remarkable about that.

And there's also something that sounds exhausting. Yeah, yeah. No, it was not. Was it exhausting? No, it just became my new norm. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers, their co-founder and CEO, I could tell this was not your average supplement company. And I was immediately drawn

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to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Okay. So the part that's remarkable, I think that's remarkable is the deep desire, the deep commitment to line up. I'm going to express my best on a regular basis. And I don't think knowing you, I don't think you were really trying to get favor from other people. Like, man, I just hope they like me. It was like, no, let me hone my craft. Let me do my thing. And I'm going force them yeah to recognize talent is that is that close that's exactly what it is is forcing them to recognize talent but also

knowing how the nfl works and having all those coaching changes and understanding that there's other opportunities out there so if coach carol those guys didn't like me because of how i pass rush or whatever i know i have to prove myself to show that one of these other 31 teams is going to need this pass rusher and pass rushers aren't you can't just find those guys anywhere right so i had to prove myself from that standpoint it's just showing that i deserve to be here right now in this moment and i deserve to be your starting defensive end to be honest with you and i'm going to keep fighting until i get to that position so if we take that out of ball you're not playing anymore that thought that I deserve or I matter in the environment that I'm in so let's pull way back I matter in the environment I'm in how are you translating that into. So that's the battle, right?

That's the battle because if you look at it, I'm 32 years old, 10 years in the NFL, four years in college, two years in high school, 16 years. Of refining your craft. Of exactly every day, constantly trying to show that I deserve to get to wherever the heck I'm going, you know, and just the competitive edge of, of, of being able to get there. Now that I'm out of ball, the biggest, the hardest thing is finding out what else you're passionate about too. Right. And once you find that passion, then that's when you dive deep into, I'm going to be the best at whatever that is. So right now for me, honestly, it's fortunately I have options, right? I have options from media to doing more real estate to even coaching. But I don't know what it is that I want to do just yet.

You're in a transition phase. In a transition phase, exactly. Which is, you know the numbers yes for athletes yes in the nfl scary scary scary but now that now we'll dive deeper into the numbers real quick so i can kind of give you my opinion on that as well the 87 13 87 within two years are broke divorced kind of a mess yeah right i'm fascinated by 13 13 how they do it now let's talk about the numbers real quick because i i feel like there's a misperception on that and the reason why i say that is 87 go broke but we have to realize out of that 87 the average is only two and a half years so yeah 2.6 or seven years that

they play that they played right so in that span have you really earned enough money to live off of for the rest of your life not if you're rookie well your contract so three years is when you get your second contract is that right four years yeah after your fourth season at the fourth season and so if you didn't go first round and get a big bonus even top 10 is kind of yeah those guys are the ones that really get paid yeah and so if you don't make it to the second i mean minimum wage is i mean it's a significant minimum wage it's like 400 and something thousand it's 400 something thousand but you're 22 years old 23 years old

you know so if if you're lucky agent goes how much three percent taxes government takes you for for 40 42 percent management takes so you're about before it's all said and done you're about you're you're paying about 48 49 some if you're in cali 52 yeah so let's say let's say 50 is gone yeah and i think it's a little higher i'm like 55 is gone you know management whatever you buy a car you've got so now you're on 200 grand you've bought a car most likely you bought a car you probably tried to help out some family members try to pay somebody's debt off yeah that's right maybe mom a house or a car or rent or whatever and so it makes sense exactly so that that and that's my thing because when people say and and when people say it for me it's like all right now let's break it out completely

like i want to know what the numbers are of guys that play seven plus years and go broke now i'm not saying the numbers aren't still i'm not saying they're the percentage isn't you know crazy but it's not i don't think it's 87 do you think you could pick them the guys that make it out yeah you can pick a few of them for sure i think you could pick 50 of them for sure i think you can definitely see the ones that are absolutely going to be broke yeah no no doubt no doubt they've got the louis vuitton bag they've got you know they just as a rookie as a rookie yes yes i agree one thousand percent the wheels here and there the bling you know you can see that it's like i agree one thousand percent you can see it and hopefully you can get some guidance and that was something i kind of prided

myself on is you know we you know we have the speaker boxes in the locker room. And from time to time, myself and Mike Bennett, we play different audio books on the speaker boxes of investing. Rich Dad, Poor Dad, Richest Man in Babylon, whatever it might be. Guys get annoyed, but at least we're trying to do our part. So in your transition phase, what's the hard part? I don't want to ask what the easy part is. What's the hard part for you as you're trying to sort out this next step? Uncertainty.

What does that mean? Uncertainty, not knowing what is next. What else? There's a fear there too, but uncertainty and not knowing what's next, not knowing what else you can be good at where do you feel that uncertainty uh you just feel it because purpose no no like do you experience uncertainty the overwhelming part of uncertainty in your body like your it's in your stomach your chest or whatever it's more of a mental thing it's so it's more excessive thinking about things when you excessively think about it, it's good to think about it now. Yeah. Where am I going next?

But the excessive part is the part that drains. It's draining for sure. Yeah. And so how do you manage it? Like what are you doing to work your way through that? I got a therapist. I got a therapist. And I think that's the best thing I did once I got hurt.

I wish I would have started earlier. Honestly, the best thing I did was get a therapist, someone I can vent to because for an athlete that has played for some time, like not too many people can relate to you and not judge you. Right. So you don't have that person. You don't,

you don't have that person to lean on. You can't go to your mom and tell her, Hey mom, I'm going through this boy. You got money. What's your problem? Or you go to your best friend. Like I could barely keep my lights on. What's you tripping over? You know, but like, it's deeper than just money. Like, like there's, there's a mental aspect to it, right? People don't think about this part, right? I just told you I played ball for 16 years. So for 16 straight years, I've been around 50 to 100 guys for majority of the year. Right. So there's something there. There's a bond there. There's a there's a, you know, something there that you've you quit the game. Now it's just you and your wife, you and your kids, four people. You went from having a hundred people all the time, although you don't even talk to all a hundred of them, you're around a hundred people consistently that, that are all on the same page that all

understand what you're putting into this job, all understand what it takes to get to this point. And then all that gets cut away. And then it's just you and your wife, your family. Like that's a difficult transition for people don't think it's just you and your wife your family like that's a difficult transition for people don't think it's a big deal but that's a difficult transition for people especially if majority of your life that's how it's been and then how did you manage that you are you still managing it i'm still managing it but i'm fortunate because i didn't i wasn't a jerk to people at the facility i can still go get my fix from time to time by going to the locker room and talking to Bobby Wagner, KJ, going to talk to Mo Kelly, who's the player development. Like I still can go get that fix every day if I wanted to. You truly have built

a community. Yes. Yes. And one day those guys will be somewhere else. For sure. And then that community changes for you, but it feels like a... But I can weed myself off of it of it yeah it's like a handoff exactly some ways i can weed myself off of it instead of cold turkey which happens to majority of the guys because a lot of guys you know the way things ended they oh man screw that organization or whatever like for me the organization has been nothing but great to me and and and i'm fortunate I said, I can just pull up anytime. I can still park it wherever I want and go in and people actually enjoy seeing me and I enjoy seeing them. And, you know, so I can weed myself off of it slowly. Do you lean on the side of anxiousness or depression? Like when things are hard, everyone's got one way or other, and sometimes people go

both, but like, is that, or there's only two options um no there's many more but if we're just talking about mood um and the emotion piece it's like do you experience more of the anxiousness or the lonely sadness part no uh it's more anxious to figure out what is next what's next yeah i'm because what you described is is a loneliness like i i had hundreds to four and that's not to say that the four isn't the most important deepest most intimate relationship it's just it's the volume and the nature of the hundred versus four but you go more to the anxiety side i say anxiety it's not loneliness i don't i like i don't i don't think i'm lonely per se because one i guess i'm around all the guys still i wouldn't say that's more of

a factor it's more so like purpose right yeah try like trying to figure out what that next step is because you get this all the time people like oh you're retired you know you play 10 years in the league what are you gonna work for like 32 years old like what do you mean like like everybody wants to roll out of bed and have a purpose. So that's my anxiety more so than anything is like trying to figure out what that next thing is, what else I'm passionate about to wake up, roll out of the bed outside of obviously my family and my kids, but wake up out of bed and have a purpose. I love it. And I think it's really hard. This is hard work. It is. Do you have anxiousness that i fall in the anxious inside

too like when things are unsettled for me i can find myself thinking too much uncertainty yeah like yeah so so i relate on that side of it and then you you've also figured out how to use that well once you had a purpose when your purpose was clear yeah right and i think you know i'll go way upstream for a minute and then I'll come back to this particular point is that understanding the, how the best in the world's work, I'm not sure people really want to trade their inner life. True statement. That's a very, very true statement.

I'm glad you said that actually, because because and I think I just had this discussion with my wife is all the things that made me or successful people or athletes or whatever you want to call it. or can also be the reason why they go crazy or the reason why, you know, things go bad as well is because one, everybody's not equipped with it. But for me, for example, right, the work ethic, just the grind, like I loved every bit of that. But now that I don't have it, I'm trying to find different ways of doing it. And my wife is like, like, why are you up so late, it, I'm trying to find different ways of doing it. And my wife is like, why are you up so late, baby? I'm trying to close this deal or whatever the case may be. That's what drives me. I love that feeling, right? But at the same time, it can drive you crazy too. Yeah. We're talking about anxiety. We're talking about OCD. We're talking about a bit of narcissism. We're talking about, yeah, some instabilities. And when I'm really honest with myself is that I have

some of those instabilities that I'm trying to sort out through this relentless understanding investigation and hopefully sharing with, with athletes or teams, or even through this modality, like how to be grounded, be centered, be purposeful, live in the present and also explore potential. And I'm not sure, I'm not sure I understand how to help a very healthy human work into a place of that neurotic deep desire, right? Like, I don't know. Do you think it's natural though? Do you think it's something that can be taught or is it natural? Which part of, of getting to that place, right. It's like a normal human being,

you know, everyday worker, whoever it may be to get that, that concept that what it takes to become quote unquote successful in sports, for example, right? Can you take just a normal person and teach them to think this way or to be this way to get to that level? It's got to come from a place, you know, so to open them up to that place is possible, but it's got to come from a place because in that place can be joy. So you think everybody can do it? Which is what?

Do what? Have the mentality. No, I don't. Okay. I do think though that we can have purpose and meaning in life. And I'm not sure that everybody is built to be the best. I think everybody is built to find their best. Gotcha.

And their best is a combination of genetic coding with a relentless, intelligent work ethic to refine your psychological game, your inner world, as well as your physical world, which is usually craft for people. Yours happens to have craft, body, and mind. mind. And for most people, body's important, but it's a carriage. Yours was an instrument, you know, for most of it, it's a, it's a carriage. It's got to effectively allow us to sit, to think, to stand up, to move, to be able to not be a massive distraction. And some people have great pain in their body, which is, you know, that makes it even harder for them. All that being said, like I could go a million different weeds there. We all have the capacity to have purpose and meaning and to, to connect deeply with ourself, then with others,

and then with mother nature is the way I think about it. So that's, that's alive. And I think we all crave it to your point, to your point. point. So let's go back to like this idea about how you're using some of your experiences former in this transition phase. And so you're saying, okay, I can find in this uncertainty a bit of anxiousness. It's not overwhelming, but I'm trying to find my purpose. Yes. That's what it is. Yeah. What are you doing to explore purpose? So I look at it like this

again, I'm fortunate enough to be 32 years old and quote unquote retired, but I'm fortunate enough to be able to pick, right. I'm kind of fortunate enough to be able to kind of ride it out and pick. I have options. I have these different things, but you've been doing something for so long. And I've always kind of prided myself like football is what I do, not who I am. Right. I've always like my whole career because I knew one day it was going to end. Right.

Hold on. That's a really important point. So we talk about coupling who I am with what I do is a very dangerous bet. Yes. I am an athlete. I am a ballplayer. I am an artist. I am a ball player. I am an artist. I am a hold on because that's going away someday. Then who are you? Who are you? And when you do,

when you do that coupling, then when you go on the field, your entire identity is that stick. Is, is, is all on that. Too much. Yeah. It's way too much. But now here's the thing though. I've said that my whole career and, and I believed it my whole career, but when it does get taken away from you, it's like a big piece of you is gone though. Right now, is it who you are? Is it, is that what defines you? I like, I don't want football to like, whenever that day comes and I'm not here, like, I don't want football to be the one thing that you guys remember me as, right. I want it to be the guy that built schools in Haiti, the guy that's helping, you know, the less fortunate. I want like to be remembered as that. I just wanted

football to be the platform that got me to that. But now that being said, it does become a little bit of you, though, because, I mean, the work, the sacrifice, the dedication that goes into becoming this professional athlete and then being able to play at the highest level for so long, it kind of gradually becomes a part of you. Well, so that's really an important thought, though. It's not the thing that you do. It's the mechanism that you apply yourself through. So the way that you think, the way that you structure time, the way that you crave feedback, the way that you work with feedback when it's not easy to hear, the way that you're attuned to yourself and others, the relentless approach to sharpen your sword, so to speak, your craft, is translatable. Yes. No, I agree 1000%. But you just got to figure out what the thing is that that's what it is right yeah because i've been fortunate enough in seattle i mean there's a so many people that are that are wealthy right and i've been fortunate enough to be able to meet with these ceos and these owners of these companies and all the and i come come to realize like the same trait, the trait that they have that got them to that, that, that spot that they're in,

that, that, that, that mountain that they're like, that's the same exact stuff. I, I, I went through to get to mine just at an earlier age. Right. But it also made me realize like, dang, I didn't have to run into people and, and, and, and bang my body people and bang my body up for 16 years to get to the level that they're at as well. But the work ethic is the point that I'm trying to like the work ethic, the grind, the sacrifice, like all these things are the traits that got them there. So that shows me that I can do any of that stuff, too. Right. I can get to that point. It's just finding out what it is that you want to do and then put your mind to it and grind because you already have that trade in. You already are that competitor. You want that. You can do that if you want to do it. It's just figuring out what that is. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned

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for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's called Dara lab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. So you're in a really special time right now and it can become overwhelming, but it's special because you're saying you're exploring and once you feel it you're going to snap into it and go and because you know you have the know-how i want to tell you a story and then i want to talk about haitian um haitian creation and where you got that nickname and what you're doing with haiti and because i want to be part of that with you let's do it you know and so we'll come back to

that so it was super bowl and it was at the end of the game. And do you remember that huddle in the locker room? Do you remember that? Which Super Bowl? First one. Okay. You could go two different directions. Yeah.

Okay, hold on. Which one do you remember more? I remember the win. I'm always one of those. Because I've gotten asked that question a gazillion times. I'm like, look, I know guys that played 15 years that never got to the super bowl let alone win one why would i dwell on the one i lost i won one i got a ring like why would i like so i'm always looking at it from that angle i love that and i my honesty is that both were remarkable and emotionally striking yeah

and i don't think you and i've ever calibrated on either of these. No, I don't think we have. Okay. So let's go. I'll go mine and then you go yours on the first, and then we'll do the second. So on the first one, amazing. I mean, it's easy to have fun when everything went according to plan. And that one, that one went according to plan.

From the very first snap. Literally. I don't remember if you started the game or not. I did. I got the fastest score in Super Bowl history. That was yours? Yes. Wait, you got the safety?

Yes. I can see your hands up. Were your hands up on that? Afterwards, yeah. Afterwards, yeah. Okay, so amazing experience. And the whole year was... Phenomenal.

Yeah, and it doesn't mean it was easy. No. It was just everybody kind of lined up, you know? Okay. So Pete brings everyone in. Coach Carroll brings everyone in. Locker room was just on fire. Yes.

Right. People are celebrating. People are like really enjoying themselves. And he brings everyone in and there's that intense huddle. Everybody's there. Media is in there as well. Kind of in the back of the circle. And I could feel the heartbeat of the organization right there.

Okay. It was a great vibe. And do you remember what he said? No. I remember what he said the day after. Okay. So he brings everyone in. He says, he goes, that's it.

Holy moly. Whatever, whatever. Like celebrate. And he's like kind of talking about that way. But this is what grabbed me. He says, we now, that's it. Holy moly. Whatever, whatever. Like celebrate. And he's like kind of talking about that way. But this is what grabbed me. He says, we now have what everyone wants. Yes. And hold on.

And I said, oh, no. I said, no, no, no. Don't say that. I said, what do you mean? Not everyone just wants a freaking trophy. That's not what. What do you. I was like, I had this moment of panic.

Like, no. Like, that's not what we've said to each other in the team like no what we and then but then he hit it without a half a beat he says the understanding of what it takes yes to be here now i was like yeah that's what it's like like okay the understanding the knowing actually he didn't say he said the knowing of what it takes to get there i was like that's it yeah yeah no that was that was solid and then and then he doubled back the next day and was like man and this this is why i love playing for him one the the positive vibes but then he comes back the next day and he's like man it's amazing. We partied. We did this. We did that.

You know, we enjoyed ourselves, whatever. But, I mean, it's cool to win one. But how much better would you feel if you had to? Yeah, I know. And I was like, man, let's go. Let's strap up. Let's go again. That's awesome.

You know, so. I remember. Yeah, I mean, it was just an amazing time, man. That just speaks volumes to like, you know, his message and who he is. Go back to the mindset prior to the game. Because I want to talk to you, you know, I've got a real strong opinion and I don't want to, I shouldn't say opinion, perspective. And I don't want to influence yours on this. How were you thinking about the game? When I was playing? Yeah. The the night before the day before the game super bowl the first first one so this is this is crazy so

that whole year like i said that was the same year i was talking about you know we weren't starters and and all these different things i didn't start all season long but yet i started the super bowl but um it wasn't starters or whatever so just an emotional roller coaster all season long then when i figured it out you know i'm like oh you know sack fomos whatever but we came out of that nfc championship game which was a heck of a game crazy game right last play yeah playing san francisco all that stuff with sherm the tip all that good stuff right came out literally came out to the last play last play of the game right um and we watched it was a regular week so the following week on wednesday we're watching film and literally i looked at mike b we both looked at each other like oh we're about to dominate these guys walk out of our the position

group so the d lineman walk out go to the go to the locker room and everybody had the same exact look on their face like oh these guys can't mess with us the offensive players the defense players we all were like marshawn same thing like bro we about to kill these guys and we went through the whole week feeling that way, grinding it out, out to everybody, you know, focus. We were so focused that week that the following week, like, we knew the game plan so well to the point where, you know, we were just joking around all week. You know what I mean?

Like, coach asked questions, like, oh, man, yeah, this, that, and the third. Like, just, you know, explaining it. Like, I had my tackle to a T. Like, I knew everything he did because I had a whole extra week to study. Like, oh, come on. my tackle to a tee like i knew everything he did because i had a whole extra week to study like oh come on so we go out that game and honestly was not surprised one bit how that game played out because everybody knew that first day of watching film that they're the best offense in in the league they haven't faced us yet yeah so you saw something just you saw your strength

match against their strength and you found a way through it. Yeah. And the confidence level too. And just knowing the talent that we had on that team, it was just like, they can't mess with us. So the point that I wanted to get to with you was about, how do you think about the Super Bowl? Is it another opportunity to play the game or is it the biggest game of the year no another championship game okay so so he beat that into our head that year okay like let's talk about that because like i've got a really strong position whether it's

olympics world championships a pitch meeting an intimate conversation with a loved one that is intense that it's another opportunity to be fully present. I like that. I like that one. So whether the lights are on, people are watching or not, it doesn't matter. It shouldn't matter. It shouldn't. For some, it does.

But see, that's the thing. Because most coaches feel as if they have to change how they coach. And essentially, the coaches are the leaders, right? So if they change how they coach and who they are are the leaders, right? So if they change up how they coach and who they are week to week, depending on if the lights are on, depending on if you're a primetime game or not, players will do the same. And I did not learn that until I got to Seattle that first year, literally every single week championship football. So when we got to the championship game, it was just another game because we've been playing championship football all year long pre-season game one what is that

championship football game practice number 14 what is championship championship opportunity exactly game number five championship opportunity exactly you know so so then the when the lights are on and all of media what's up media is saying this is the biggest game this is defining game in it it's not it's not the right way of thinking about it it's the same doggone game we've been playing all season long that's and we didn't care if it was a monday night game sunday night game thursday night game super bowl sunday evening or midday game didn't matter it was championship football and so if we can pull that thread that brilliant thread that's amazing out into everyday living yes which is it doesn't matter where you are what you're doing it's another moment to be fully present so let's condition our minds to live

the present moment more often i like that i need that in my life well you have it i do but you when when it's what do you think you and i were doing the whole time that's true that's very no but that's very true cultural standpoint yeah no that's very true though that's very true be in the moment right now and and i need to get better with that or just day to day even with my relationship with my wife like we talked about that as well as like just being in the moment but like being able to it boils down to just you being in the moment but being yourself every every day as soon as you roll out of bed and you be in the moment so to do that you've got to know who you are yes that's a big deal now yes that's a life discovery process but do do you think most people know who they are

no i think it's really um a tragedy yes yes i think i think it's part of the human tragedy but now is there always a learning curve too though there is so there's i don't want to be the same human i am today in five years i feel like right there's i need to know more learn more grow more change i need to let go more there's a lot of things i need to do but that being said having a compass of my core characteristics the values that i have um and then the mental skills to allow those to flourish in the present moment. So once you know who you are, that's cool. That's a deep, deep lifelong journey, but it's worth the investment, the inner engineering of that. Should be the biggest investment.

Thank you. And then the second is we need the mental skills to allow us to be that person in hostile, stressful, rugged, pressure-packed situations. Yeah, I agree. Because as an athlete, would you nod your head to this? There's that thought, rise to the occasion or fall to the level of training. And I'd like to say rise to the occasion. I'd like to say that. But you know what?

If I don't have the skills, I can't just make them up on the fly. There is creativity involved in everything. But it's like mental skills, physical, technical skills. We fall to our level of best conditioning. I agree. Do you agree with that? I agree 1,000%. Yeah, that's why you work so hard probably.

It is. It's a big reason why, you know, you work so hard or I work so hard is because of all those things you just said, really. And just being able to understand that... Honestly, it's just being able to understand that you need that to be successful at what you're doing, for real, for real. You know, just understanding that aspect of it. But I also think it has to come... It's a natural thing, too. Like, because as a young player, like as a as a as an 18 year old Cliff Averill. Right. I don't necessarily know these things. It just is happening naturally.

Right. And maybe from examples of other people around you or whatever the case may be. But it's happening natural. Now, as you continue to grow as an athlete, but also grow as a person. That's when you start like, oh, this is why all these things are happening. And now dive deeper into it. Okay. So let's go back to 18 Cliff, 18 year old Cliff. And this is a way that some folks might be able to use in their own life. Like what mental skill would you hope Cliff Averill as an 18 year old would invest in? Ooh. What mental skills being able to be calm confidence letting go mistakes pre-performance routines mental imagery clarity of goals i think clear philosophy i like the mental um the mental piece of uh what'd you call it the the imagery imagery would you you'd spend more

time there spend a little more time there but, here's the thing with that, right? So through my years of trying to get better at that piece, if it didn't work out the way I envisioned it or whatever, a few times, like say it didn't happen in three straight games where like, I imagined this was going to happen and, and breaking down film and all these different things. And it doesn't happen the way you kind of thought it would have for me, I'm redirecting and trying to figure out something else that will get me to be able to perform at a high level. Right. And, and, and that's been, that's been difficult. But as I got older, there's times where like, literally, like I would, I would go through a

whole process and I've, I've, I imagine this was going to happen and this, and the whole game played out the way I did it. That's rare, but yeah, but you had extremely rare. Yeah. Right. But then I'm on this search to keep finding that to hopefully happen. And out of, I think I may have played over 160 games or something. Out of 160 games, maybe that happens three times. Like for the whole game to actually play out like that, right? If you're fortunate. So you would spend more time using your imagination to see and feel yourself at your best.

That and then realizing how much of a mental game it was. Right? And when I say mental game, like you could have made the game so much easier for you if you understood that it was a mental game. Like breaking down film. Breaking understanding. Understanding stances. Understanding. Like there's so much stuff that I learned, say, in the last four years of my career that I wish I would have known.

If I would have known that eight years earlier, I would have been a first-round draft pick and I'd probably been an All-Pro. I would have been a Hall of Famer or something like that. But it's part of the process, too. Yeah. So when you think about the mental part of the game, it can be broken into two parts. The concepts, stance, tendencies, that's a really important part of the analysis of the game yes and then i'm curious about the mental skills which is like generating confidence is a skill agree right and so i don't know look look back were you

were you skilled at confidence having confidence i don't think i was okay so how did you how did you how but i think that's why i worked so hard to get confident like my confidence came in to after the fact yeah so you you found yourself in the classic trap i'm not sure how it's going to go i'm not sure exactly like how to think and feel about it i know i want to think like positively and I want to think like I can do it, but man, I can't fool myself. So I'm going to work my ass off. And then, then, but then the psychological piece doesn't really change because that becomes a habit. And so there's a classic loop that you got to listen. Everyone has to work hard to have credible self-talk. When you get the order, right. That confidence comes from

what i say to myself that's based in real credible experiences but i own that i choose the thoughts i choose whether i'm going to say to myself listen i put in the work i'm built for it let's go but try me test me because i love the test but could that be a form of motivation too though of course yeah there's two types of it. And see, I think that's what I did. It was more so like, for me, it wasn't, like, I was never uncertain that I deserved to be here. But I also understood that, and I could rely on my work ethic and I could rely on, because a lot of stuff with football is muscle memory too, right? And all those different, like like dive into that stuff i was confident enough to know that i worked hard

enough to know that things are going to play itself out right so score yourself pro bowl player 16 16 years in league i wish to 10 that's what i thought i thought you said 16 earlier no 16 years total total yeah yeah that's what i thought 10 I thought you said 16 earlier, but maybe that's total. Yeah. That's what I thought. 10 years in the league, pro bowler rate, your confidence level, looking back one to 10, 10 is like, no, I really, it was really strong. One is like, no, I also felt like it was a humble thing. Cause like they're different now you're humble. Yeah. You're, you're, you're 10 on humility well but i'm saying i think that's why i never looked at the confidence piece because it's a fine line so confident if we break down the definition confidence would be i'm pretty sure now i could do that well oh well if we look at it like that because i feel like confidence can come off as cocky too right yeah we're talking about something different though he's like look at look at me. Like I can do whatever. You're not that. So from that perspective, I've always felt like I deserve to be here. Like going back to what was strong.

Yeah. So it's pretty strong. Yes. So confident in my skills, confident in the work, confident that I can be here. Right. Yes. What's the range? I'd say about an eight. Hover around an eight. Yeah. Okay. So then how good were you at self-talk? Being aware of your thoughts, step number one. Step number two, choosing well. I think I was pretty good on the tail end of my career. I think I was pretty good at that. That's also communicate with you from time to time. Early days, what was it? It was pretty low because honestly like i was like so like i said oh and 16 right so like those years it's like uh almost like a an abuse type of thing right like the coaches are beating it into my head

almost like you shouldn't be here you know we want to get rid of you so like the negative the negativity for a second actually made me even think twice about even playing ball right but then something switched and maybe it's the self-talk where i use that as motivation and it became more of a i I want to show you that. Like, I'm going to show you that I deserve to be here. I'm going to show you that it's not a mistake that you kept me on this roster. I'm going to show you that you better not cut me or I'm going to make life miserable for you. I'm going to purposely go to the divisional rival.

I'm going to make life uncomfortable for your quarterback. So you use some fuel. I use it as motivation. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. All right. Can fuel. I use it as motivation. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. All right. Can we flip over to Haiti?

Okay. Yep. So that's where you – I don't know. Were you born there? I was not born there, but both my parents are from Haiti. Yeah. You've got strong cultural roots there. Yes.

You know? And so you want to do whatever you can for your nation. To make a change. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So it's interesting. Like, as a kid growing up, I used to go to Haiti every summer, right?

Go visit my grandparents. Go visit family members. My mom was – my mom and my uncle were the only two in the States from her side of the family. My dad was the only person from his side of the family that was in the States. And so I would go with my mom consistently, you know, every summer. And then there was about a 15 year period where I stopped going. And it was right after my grandma passed away. Then I went to college and I went to the league and there's a negative, there's a negative connotation of Haiti. There's a negative outlook on Haiti, even from Haitians that come to

the States. So my mom was like, Oh no, you can't go back. You know, it's dangerous out there, this, that, and the third, whatever. So my passion for the country actually kind of started going downhill until I became an adult and I wanted to do research on like basically where I'm from, where my people are from. And as I dove deeper into it, I'm like, wait up, why are you telling me not to go to this country? Like this is such a beautiful, like most people don't even realize that Haiti is the same island as Dominican Republic. Same exact, just split right down the middle. Most people don't even realize that, right?

So for me, it's like, that means we've got the same beaches. That means we've got the same clear water, you know, blue water, private islands right off the coast, all these different things. So as I start diving deeper into just the country, their history, how resilient these people are, like, I'm proud to be Haitian. Like, what are you like mom? And I tell her, I was like, why would you do that to me? Why would, why were you keeping me away from this culture? Why were you keeping me away from, from these type of people? Because that's really why I'm, I am who I am is how resilient, how hardworking these people are, you know? So again, as I dove deeper into that country and again, there's, there's a lot of negativity.

There's a, you know, there's, there's a lot of historical things that are stopping them from thriving and becoming a great country. But the people there are some of the most amazing people that you'll ever meet. And so you want to give back. I want to give back. I want to give back. I want to be, we mentioned this, like maybe, I don't know if you remember, like three, four, maybe it was like three years ago. I was like, Hey, I'd love to be able to help with the school thing.

Yes. So I don't know what, where your efforts are on that now. Can you talk about what? Yes. So we, we just, the school actually just opened up. We're finally done. It's been like a two and a half year project. You know, I had so many people.

Congratulations. Yeah. And they just told me they're naming the school after me. So that's pretty cool. Oh my. Yeah. And that's pretty, because I told them from jump, like, I'm not looking for any of that. I just want to be able to build them this infrastructure to allow them, give these kids

an opportunity to be able to learn. Because I feel like that's the number one thing for that country. Let's, like, this is me riffing right now what if we could figure out now we have what is technology do they can they get online it's still kind of difficult that's what i thought so what if we could figure out because we've got that online course yes to create i remember and it's all of the mental skills that we found to be valuable to help elite athletes do their thing and we translate for business and it's just now for the first time open for folks you know general public

so i hate that phrase by the way general public well i dislike hate and i said that and i really dislike general public so i'm a mess right now but like taking that somehow that structure framework and i you embody all of those skills so beautifully, the inner experience of becoming the mental skills, et cetera. What if we figured out a way to give that to your school? You drive the whole thing. Use our framework. So I'm glad you say that because that's my next step, right? I built this infrastructure for these kids to be able to learn.

My next step is trying to figure out and being a part of the curriculum. OK, so there's a lot of curriculum. You know, there's there's the STEM. Yeah, there's the whatever, whatever. And I'd love to see if we could help contribute to the psychology piece. Yes. Right. The mental skills, you know, from from the best in the world athletes translated from science to application for everybody. And speaking of best athletes, if you go to Haiti, and I don't know why more scouts aren't going, to be honest with you,

because I host these football camps out there every year. Are they all built like you? No, they're not built like me, but they're athletic, though. Seriously? It's unreal. And these are kids that don't have the resources that we and these these are kids that don't have the resources that we have these are kids that don't have i know imagine with some fuel in there some

proper nutrition like it's so i don't i don't know i've never been to the island i'd love to go oh yeah let's make it happen and so i just got back from nigeria for a business thing i was doing and i was like oh my beautiful people large and in like their structure is beautiful like it's unbelievable and the spirit is alive yes the corruption from a government standpoint same thing same thing yeah so okay all right let's seriously and and let me pull out of this conversation for a minute i'm reminded that we're holding a microphone that people are listening. Like if you want to do something powerful for Haiti, if you want to support a man who wants to do something powerful for Haiti, if you want to take the psychological skills and figure out a pathway through there, maybe it's helping figure out some internet stuff.

Maybe it's printing materials. If you own a printing press or yeah a telecom you know whatever like yes please please and then you can reach you can reach out so it's my organization and my foundation is the cliff avril family foundation and you can get all the information all the great things the good things that we're doing i don't like to say we're doing great things but all the the things that we're trying to do to just change lives, change, you know. It is meaningful work. Thank you. Yeah. And you can get all that information at cliffaverillfamilyfoundation.org.

I mean, we do a wide range of different things in Haiti from health clinics to I support this orphanage out there. With the simplest things that we take for granted, like water. Like I provide water for them for the whole entire year because clean water is not really accessible like that, right? Nonprofit. It's a nonprofit. So people can help out that way, whether it's from an organizational support and or individual. Yes. You're not above taking 50 cents, are you?

What? No. Everything counts, right? Everything counts. We're trying to make a difference. We're trying to make a difference in this world more so than anything, right? I think sometimes in America, we get stuck in a bubble and take things for granted. But once you start traveling, you start seeing what people, these people are so happy with what they got. And most of us would probably die because we think we wouldn't be able to survive on the stuff that they have. Right. But giving back, but giving back in the right way, because giving sometimes can actually hurt people. And, and, you know, I can dive deeper into that as well, but giving back in the right way, educating them and allowing them to be able to, to figure out ways to be able to work and,

and stimulate the economy themselves. So they struggle with resources. Yes. And some struggle with the inner resources. Yes. Right. And so we all have that potential in common, whether we have access to running water or we don't. The inner world is something that is really powerful. And if you don't get that thing right, it doesn't matter if you have external resources or not. So what is the dark side for you? Are you okay to talk about this for a minute? Yeah, let thing right. Yep. It doesn't matter if you have external resources or not. So what is the dark side for you? Are you okay to talk about this for a minute? Yeah, let's roll. Okay.

What is the dark side of being one of the best in the world? One of the best in the world? The dark side? For you. Not conceptually. For you. What was the hardest, most complicated, most difficult part? You lose a part of you.

You lose the thing. Could you say I lost a part of you you lose the thing could you say i lost a part of me yeah well yeah i so the thing that i lost the most is trust of of trust from people the closest ones to you oh that's the one thing that i had to kind of gain back trust because money changes people including yourself but money changes people, including yourself. But money changes the people around you. Like a lot of people, especially in the black community, a lot of people are like, oh, you know, you got money and you change. It's not you that change.

It's the people around you that change. And you have. For example. For example, like I have I've had friends that I had to cut off because instead of treating me like their friend they treated me like a superstar and i like like i don't me personally i don't need that i don't want i don't want a bunch of yes men around me i don't want a bunch of people that are hyping me up all the time because when all that's gone i'm gonna be the one that was stuck with that and and i got stuck in this routine of of these people that are

just i'm the best thing since sliced bread when it's all over and they moved on to somebody else they're they're you know being groupies for somebody else or something like that like so i've lost trust in people from that standpoint why is that dark for you because i feel like you should be able to trust some people. You feel like you should have somebody. So therein lies the disconnected lowliness. Yeah. Yeah.

I would agree with that, with that piece. Yeah. You know? So it's almost like this, like a disheartening experience that the people you grew up with, the people that you're, sometimes it's as bad as your parents so they so yeah so they say they're listening to this right now they say man he got it wrong he changed he got money and then he left yeah no you typically you leave because you don't like the circumstances that that that the like that how people around you have become right um that's the one thing like oh

you know you you made the money and you left your neighborhood and all these different things like those people you grew up with now actually envy you what's the hardest conversation you've ever had with somebody else hardest convo um with my mom i had to tell my mom, and this is like after four or five years in the league, I had to tell like, mom, you know, you're the parent, not me. Like, so it almost, almost became roles reversed. And she was almost afraid of telling me how she felt because she felt like I would cut her off or I would, you know, not do for her per se or whatever. So I had to let her know, like, mom, you are my mother. Like one thing I'm going to always love you. And I'm going to always do for you. Like, I would never see you

like want to see you struggle or anything like that, but don't get the roles twisted. Like you're my mom. Like I might, I still need guidance. I'm only 28, 29 years old. Like I still need help through weeding through all this stuff. Um. So that was probably one of the hardest conversations and, and, and just the realest conversation that I had to have with someone is, is letting her know you, you still my mama, baby.

Wow. Yeah. How do you do vulnerability? That's something I've been working on. Are you feeling anything right now in this conversation? I am. I probably never had, I've never told anybody that.

That's for sure. Yeah, I just watched your face. Yeah. Did you feel it too? Yeah, yeah. And what is that feeling that you're feeling right now? Great. I like it because that one, I was just about to say, I've been working on trying to be more vulnerable because of all these different things, like this success or being this professional athlete or like whatever.

There's a lot of stuff that's taken away from you as well, like being vulnerable because you feel like you can't trust people like, you know, everyone that's in your life. You kind of looking at them sideways. Are they here for me? Are they here for this ride? You know, you lose you lose you lose a lot yeah you lose it exactly you lose a lot of that stuff because money seems to change people yeah you know what it's amazing because to be great or world leading world class at something you have to i don't like that phrase either because there's not a whole lot of have tos in life, but you do have to embrace the unpredictable unfolding unknown. That's a hard thing to do though. Oh my goodness. So on the field though, you don't know how it's going to go. Right. Like it, cause there's skilled people across the tape. And so like to let go that I'm

going to trust that I'm going to figure it out as the play unfolds. There is a vulnerability. You are on front street every Sunday and every Thursday and every Wednesday in practice when only the decision makers are looking at you. So you have this different type of vulnerability that you've expressed. However, missing the intimate vulnerability, right? Like with other people yes but even but even but even that vulnerability you're talking about with with being on a team i was confident enough that i put in the work that whatever was going to happen on sunday

that you'd adjust you'd ever go exactly you know um but again like that's not something that like how do you how do you how do you transfer that into like your your like relationships with everybody else? What's the what's the most important thing somebody has said to you that has changed you, that fundamentally altered how you think about you and your your life? That's a good one. i've never thought about it um i would say this is when the light switched on actually my dad and he was probably the realest person that i've ever had in my life he was the one person that didn't shake didn't waver he't care if, if I was a professional athlete or whoever else, like he didn't like, he kept it real with me at all times. Mom and dad stay together?

No, they weren't together. What age were you when they split? I was only like seven, but he was very involved in my life. Like I see my dad pretty much every other day. But the one thing that he told me is when he dropped me off at the airport to go to Purdue, he told me straight up, listen, you're in a grown man. You're a grown man. Now you're leaving. You're a grown man. Now don't you bring your behind back here without, first off,

don't embarrass the fan us because Haitians are very prideful. Don't embarrass us one, but you're leaving as a grown man don't you bring your behind back here without your degree and have you make sure you have something in place to better yourself and when he told me that this is my first time leaving home this is my first time actually getting on an airplane by myself. When he told me that I actually broke down like on my way to the gate because there was a fear there at that point. Like there was pressure there. Right. My my man, my old man that I looked up to, the hardest working person I till this day that I know, told me not to bring my behind back home and not to embarrass him. So going into college and you can ask anybody that knew me my first couple years in college. It's like something's different about that kid. Like I didn't party. I didn't go out. I didn't speak to people. People thought I was just people actually thought like I was arrogant because I didn't speak to people. But in all reality, I was just focused. Like I'm like, i'm not embarrassing my old man right and till this day i

feel like that's what got me to this point right now is i keep that in back of my head and and thinking like even with with my dad not being here like don't embarrass your old man and and don't don't go back home without being basically successful at least that's how i translated it but really it bore down to just not embarrassing your old man powerful yes yes if you were sitting across from if you were if you had the chance to sit across from a legend okay okay who would that be michael jordan what question would you want to ask him? You got one question. What fueled you? Okay. What if you want to understand his motivation? Yes, because at the end of the day, I feel like any and everybody that, that is quote unquote

successful. And I think success looks different for each individual, but I think at the end of the day, the one common thing is something is motivating you to get there right what is fueling you to get to that point what makes you work so hard what makes you sacrifice family time sacrifice your body what makes you sacrifice fun you know like what what was that and why did it do that to you it would be my thing so someone like mj even from a business perspective like what fuels you to make the decisions you make what fuels you to so i'm gonna flip it on you what fuels you my family my little boys to be honest with you and it's really my family but my little boys and why i say my little boys to be honest with you and it's really my family but my little boys and

why i say my little boys my wife is right she's been with me through this whole process she's kind of seen it but what fuels me with my little boys is one i want obviously every parent wants to give their child their kids you know a better life than theirs. Right. But the thing for me is I'm raising two black boys in America and I want to give them the best chance to succeed. Although things are going to sound crazy, things are stacked against them in a sense. And I want them to know that they do not have to be an athlete or an entertainer of some sort to be, quote unquote, successful. And the reason why is because that's the only thing that they see on TV and the majority of people see on TV as success in their communities. And there's a gazillion other ways to be quote-unquote successful so it fuels me to be able to give them that opportunity I guess to be

able to see that and understand that although that was my route and it worked out for me there's 99.9% of other kids that it that's not the way it wrote the road to elite athletics is filled with catastrophes oh oh it's brutal it's brutal if you if they knew if most people knew what you and i knew about it i don't think they'd want to yeah they wouldn't push their kids no no like people ask me about my son's playing football and i say heck no every time but my oldest is going to be difficult because that's like he's been around his whole life right but I'll tell this quick story the reason why I don't want my kids to play football the reason why I don't want them to be even involved in anything like that is because there was a point in time while I was in Detroit I remember I just had my

son he was like maybe I don't know eight nine. And after a game, I went to go pick him up and I couldn't because my hands hurt so much. And right then and there, when I looked in the crib, I was like, you don't need to play football. Like, I'll do this. Like, I love what I do. Don't get me wrong. I love what I did, should I say. And it gave me an opportunity to be able to do some special things for my family. But I looked in the crib like you'm like, you don't need, like, this is too painful. Like, it's too painful from a physical and emotional standpoint that I cannot pick you up right now to play with you because I am so beat up

from this game that I'm providing for you with. What a dilemma. Crazy. How is your body right now? I feel great now, honestly. Oh, my goodness. I feel great. And I've lost 20 pounds i

think that was the biggest hurdle really is losing the pounds my knees feel amazing my back feels better um but i'm also only what a year and some change out that's good though no but i i feel great mentally i feel good um i'm enjoying i'm enjoying the process honestly that's the one thing that that i wish i would have done more of while i played was enjoy the process enjoy the product because i now i'm looking back i'm like man you got to do so many cool things you got to you've accomplished so many cool things but in the midst of it i wasn't enjoying like i didn't get to actually like sit back and enjoy it because I also felt like that would kind of derail me. Um, if I got to sit back in like, man, you did ball out that game. What do you hope that one or two or three books that people could read? What would you hope that they would be that have been influential for you? For me, I'm more of a person that likes to read

about, it's going to sound crazy. Um, a person that likes to read about, it's going to sound crazy. Um, a person that likes to read about like real estate and finances because I never really got to learn about them. I didn't grow up with money or anything like that. So now that I have free time, that's what I'm doing. So the the rich dad poor dad which i keep saying um which was one of the the the basics of of of real estate and investing and all that good stuff um but as far as for like a motivational book i don't know whatever like foundational foundational everything is going to revert back to those two topics that i just said uh investing in real estate and real estate.

Yeah, I challenge you because I know how strong your faith is. So where do you put the Bible in there? So it's not. And this is crazy. And I think Seattle's doing this to me, honestly, is I'm very definitely a religious person. But within for whatever reason, in the last year and a half i actually meet with a preacher every week but in the last year and a half i've kind of slowed down on the bible i took a trip to israel at the beginning of that year and a half and that trip made me question a lot of different things

that i've grew up to know and understand about the Bible. In a good way and in a bad way. It made me question a lot of things that was in the Bible. Have you read the Gita? It's a Hindu Bible. I'd love to turn you on to that, to just check it out as an important spiritual text. And the Tao Te Ching from Taoism is another incredibly powerful spiritual text. And, you know, these spiritual texts that have been around for thousands of years. Yes, they all have.

Like, why not read it? No, no, I agree. Because it's hard. But see, here's the thing, though, that and what made me kind of slow down on not necessarily religion well religion really is what it is is with religion for me i started questioning like i said when i went to israel because i started realizing all religions for the most part stem from the same core group of beliefs that's what that's what I was suggesting. You read those two.

They're different. No, very, very similar. Okay. Different ways of saying it. Exactly. Yeah.

So, so when I realized that it made me question a lot of things as well. Like, why are there so many different religions? If all of them are saying the same stuff, power control. Exactly. Dialogue.

Yeah. So it started making me just question that part now i have faith i believe there's a god because there's honestly there's a lot of times i question how what happens after you die i think you go to heaven i think there's a heaven i think there's a heaven in hell there's another there's another realm yeah i think so i think so is your god active or passive i think he's active so he he wanted us to meet or did he just kind of set it in motion i think all of it happens for a reason i think he yes things for a reason so that's that's definitely active god for me yes yeah i

think passive i think that you think we make our own decisions yeah i think there's a co-creation aspect to it you know like you and i were in the same environment but we could have just said what's up and that's all it was that's true you could have just said, what's up? And that's all it was. That's true. You know, or could have said, what's up again? And then again, again, again. So I think that there's a co-creation piece to it that, you know, feels right to me. I don't think that God said that, oh, gosh, OK, my grand plan is to put Mike Bennett and Cliff Averill together. I think that's too minor.

I think that's pretty small. Like, yeah, I agree. I agree from that standpoint. I do think that he puts things in place in your life for you to navigate and actually meet a Michael Bennett. Yeah. Meet Doc, meet Coach Carol, have Coach Carol. Like because I feel like all these people that I'm fortunate enough to meet and be around, like I've taken something from them and it's made me a better person. There you go. Okay.

What's the one word that guides you? Ironically, faith. Okay. Faith in what? What do you, what's faith in? Faith in knowing that everything's going to be all right. Everything's going to play itself out. Okay.

And then what's the one, if there's a word to capture what you understand most what would that be what i understand most i don't know if i i don't know if i can even pinpoint one thing honestly okay what's the one word that would capture what you do best? Hard work. Is that one word? Hyphen. Yeah. Creativity.

We'll just put hyphens and things. How about the one? Passion. Passion. Okay. What gets in the way of your passion?

My wife. Wait, what did you say? My wife. Oh my God. I'm joking, baby. What gets in the way of passion, I think sometimes is myself, actually. I think I get in the way of my passion because I think it's human nature to question things. I think it's human nature to even like, why do I, why am I so passionate about this? Why am I so passionate about football?

Okay. So I want to, I want to come back to, we hit the top of this with purpose and meaning. Yes. Okay. And then we throw this other word, big word in passion. So passion is this inner fire, right? And I think about wet blankets that cover passion, heavy blankets that cover it, which are fear and fatigue.

When I'm exhausted, it's hard to be switched on. When I'm anxious, it's hard to be switched on. It's a different tone. It's a different energy. So I do think that we screw our own passion up. I agree 1000%. And then the other piece to it though, this is what I want to add to it, is that people are looking to live passionately. I don't think that you need to do football to live passionately. I don't think there's one thing. I think we have it reversed, is that if we can figure out how to be switched on, we take that flame anywhere we go. So I think we can live with passion and not have to be in a specific environment or art or craft.

For it to survive. For it to be there. For it to thrive. But now here's the question. Okay, if you had that passion in you, whatever that may be, how do you know where to take it? That's different. That's purpose. Oh, okay.

Slash mission, slash whatever. Like, that's different. So I do think we need both of those toggles, both of those things to be switched on, like live with passion, but also know, where am I going to apply that passion? And now we've got like this and jet fuel on things. Yeah. But I don't think that the order like this question, where do you find passion? Oh, it's when I play the guitar, Well, then play the guitar more. Wait a minute. That's the only, but I only get to do that 30 minutes a day.

So you're saying passion 30 minutes a day is cool? Well, I should become a rock star, but I'm not actually good enough to do that professionally. So I can't live with passion now. But could that passion be the reason why you become the rock star though? Possibly. I'm not sure I want to lay that bet. Okay. Like what I'm saying is if I can figure out the inner experience to live with passion in any environment I'm in, and I'm mission minded towards something that I want to work toward in life, like schools in Haiti

for you. Okay. Whatever, whatever, fill in the blank. Then, then I feel like I've got a sense of self mastery and I'm going to say... But don't you have the passion? Isn't that kind of vague, though? Well, yeah, we could define it. I think it's fire. I think it's fire. I've seen you play with passion. And I've also seen you kind of like you're tired.

That's true. But I've seen that with you. And when you talk about Haiti, when you talk about the school, you light up. Yeah. So there's right. So I don't know. I think that we've got the order reversed.

That's all I want to add to the conversation is that figuring out how to live in a switched on way, that's up, that's up to the individual, not the environment. No, I like that. I like that. I like that. I think that. I like that. I think that's definitely a great way of viewing it because it is typically most times for other people, for everyone, really, for the majority. It's the other way around. I like that.

I'm about to incorporate that in my life. Look at you. Yeah. No, it's deep, though, because now are we conditioned to feel that way? That's a good question. Are we conditioned to think that way? Are we conditioned to feel like passion can only be that way? Instead of it actually being just an emotion that you can have all the time.

Yeah. I don't know, but I do know I got to take care of those blankets. I got to get my fatigue right. And I got to get my fears right but even fears like how do you how do you get fears right right because like the fear is actually what i felt like motivated me right um i know that's when i was listening i was like hmm earlier i was like how's that work yeah but it worked for you it worked for me but fear can crumble people too well so that's how we kind of start the conversation, which is like, and then uncertainty, but you're not crumbled by the uncertainty.

You're just feeling it. Like I've got some anxiousness about it. Exactly. Right? So there is a way though, to embrace the anxiousness of the unknown and it still be contained. I think you love, knowing you Cliff, I think you love like seeing what you have, seeing what you can do, seeing what you can bring. I think you love the unknown because you operate pretty well in it. That's crazy because I hate the situation.

I hate being in it, though. But you're in it now. So what are you going to do? But see, I mean, embrace it, obviously, because it's worked for me. Because uncertainty, right? The one time, so this is another reason why i stayed in seattle uncertainty so the one time in my career where it was uncertain and it now obviously worked out was going into free agency not knowing where the heck i'm going to play next year coming out of detroit right i'm like oh my gosh i'm freaking out i'm panicking i'm like no teams are calling like do I suck like what's going to happen then the uncertainty happens okay

you're in Seattle it's still an uncertainty it's an uncertain situation like I'm it's unfamiliar to me uncertainty whatever now I'm in the same space again like all right you're done playing ball you know what's next oh Oh my gosh. Do you start panicking or do you embrace it? And I've embraced it. I like, again, going back to a pre like, uh, enjoying the process, like, okay, it's uncertainty. There's, there's, you don't know what's coming. It's always process. It's always the process, right? So how about this statement the goal is the path it's all we're always on the path and maybe in your model after we die it's still a path we just can't see it and understand it yet but the goal is to be in and on the path that's it that's true okay so you're in it now so am i

we're different kind of whatever but you're in the path but see the uncertainty part is you're in the path but you can't see you can't see 10 feet you can't see 10 feet ahead of you that's the hard part that's so do you take that next step you know yeah or stay still stay still is i think sometimes you got to stay still okay but when you stay still too long i don't know i don't know i don't know if staying still is ever good. Well, yeah, it's an interesting thought because if you stay still too long, you know, you grow moss. You grow slippery spots that don't grow. Yeah. You know, what's that? What was the phrase I'm trying to get to?

Rolling stones gather no moss. So, you know. That's true. I think staying still, I don't mean being still, like internally. I'm talking about take the next natural step sometimes that means slow down because you're trying to take too many because you're going too fast yeah yeah yeah i feel like that's the situation people right now that's very true and i love for you to bounce off this because i haven't said this to you before

the model that we need to do more to be more we need to do exceptional things to be exceptional i find problem i find problematic elaborate i think that the model that i think that model is broken i need to have a 10 million people on instagram to be extraordinary i need to get a super bowl ring to be extraordinary no no we already are so the idea is be grounded be present be authentic be you be here now and then let all the doing flow from there everything else is gonna play itself out yeah that's how you oh so that's how you say that yeah everything plays itself out so the work is to be yeah and everything else to play itself out that's cool yeah so i guess we're essentially saying the same thing finally we agree on we essentially say the same thing just in different different ways. That's cool. Yeah.

No, I like that. I like that. But that's truly what I believe, too. So, you know, just again, put in the work and everything else will play itself out. I love it. You know what I just had a thought of? Is that Cliff and I sat down a long time ago for

like this. Yeah. For conversation and the tape got ruined like it the file got corrupted so we're gonna make sure this one doesn't i know so i've looked over at the recorder you know and so um cliff's gonna hear this on on the podcast i'm not i'm sorry michael's gonna listen to this on the podcast michael bennett oh yeah he should so what's when he sees your name pop up and he knows we're rolling, what are we going to say to him? He's going to call me and be like, bro, why didn't you tell me? Because we talk about everything under the sun.

Bro, why didn't you tell me? It's pretty cool, huh? You know, just go into his whole spew of talking about a bunch of randomness. No, not random. He's on it. He is on it. He is on it. All right.

The world is a better place for you because of you. Appreciate it. So thank you. No, thank you. Thank you. Actually, I picked up a lot, man. it's always great talking to you honestly you just find ways of say more about this go ahead go ahead say more you just find way you know you just find ways of like just being able to get guys to think deeper into you know most of us think about it but like to actually verbalize it and and communicate it it just takes it to a

different level i appreciate you you know what's fun about that statement for me is that sometimes not oftentimes i get the question like what do you do like what's it look like what's your work look like at the seahawks i said well a lot of hallway conversations there's a little couple bus rides here and there yeah like that was good moments when you and i were in the back of the bus just a few times just a couple times like you would like but it died but we dove deep though like it was like quick and deep and you see the thing is we dove deep but like as i was saying earlier is as a professional athlete you typically can't have those type of conversations with any and everybody but i think what people would be surprised about is how quick we would

go into that place because you wanted to you're're ready, and I was available for it. And we never closed the door and sat on a couch and did the work. I'm not mad about that. I think that deep work, I've sat on the couch, like, I don't know, maybe more than you, like a lot. I've sat on the couch a lot. And I'm not mad about it, but that wasn't what we did. No, no. But yet you still accomplished the same thing, if not more.

We did. no but yet you still accomplish the same thing if not more we did yeah we did accomplish a lot more yeah um by not being in i guess that that that type of it has to be genuine too everything genuine always never made it weird it was just part of a great you know conversation agreed agreed now you see you walking around the facility i'm like who is this guy yeah this is before but like before we actually start speaking. Like, who is this guy? But then it was great. It was a good connection.

Everything happens for a reason. There you go. I appreciate you. I appreciate you, my man. And to connect to Cliff's mission, it's Cliff Averill Family Foundation. That's C-L-I-F-F. And Averill is A-V-R-I-L.

And you can also find him on social media at Cliff Averill for Instagram and Twitter. And you can also connect to us. Twitter's at Michael Gervais and Instagram is at Finding Mastery. And you can also connect with us on LinkedIn, Michael Gervais. And hopefully, you know, you've taken the time to spread the word, right? That's how we grow is organically. And so if you've taken a moment to spread the word, I just want to say thank you for the Finding Mastery podcast. I really want to say thank you. And if you haven't yet, there's loads of things you could do. Find us on social, which is awesome. Tell somebody about it for a download on iTunes is incredible. And if you write a review, it's big time. Like that helps the engine of iTunes to circulate some sense of importance for what we're doing and amplify us. So a review on iTunes is awesome. So that's important as well.

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