Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Competition, Olympic Greatness, and Transitions | Apolo Ohno

Episode Date: October 2, 2019

This week’s conversation is with Apolo Anton-Ohno, an eight time Winter Olympics Medalist and a flat out legend in short track speed skating. .With two gold, two silver, and four bronze medals, Apolo is the most decorated American Olympian at the Winter Olympics.Apolo remains involved in the Olympic movement as an ambassador to the Olympic Games, the Special Olympics, and also serves as a broadcaster for NBC.In addition, he is on the 2026/2030 Winter Olympic bid committee for Salt Lake City, Utah & involved with the 2028 Summer Olympics in Los Angeles.Apolo is also a New York Times best-selling author.He’s currently writing a new book on his transition from the Olympic spotlight into “real life,” covering his challenges, failures, and triumphs.And we definitely touch on transition in this conversation.Apolo is a dominant competitor and we unpack where that came from, how it played a role in his Olympic success, and how he’s had to adjust in his post-speed skating life.This is a candid conversation – I think you’ll really appreciate Apolo’s willingness to explore intimate topics and hold nothing back._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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It was very violent, right? So like I didn't want to physically hurt anybody, but I wanted them to never ever dare try to claim the throne. For 12 years, it was like that to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who are dedicated to mastery. And we want to understand how they organize their inner life, what they're searching for, how they deal with adversities and challenges,

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That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash findingmastery. Okay, this week's conversation is with Apollo Anton Ono, and you recognize the name because he's a legend. He's an eight time winter Olympics medalist and flat out a legend in short track speed skating. So he's got two golds, two silvers, and four bronze medals. And Apollo is the most decorated American Olympian at the Winter Olympics. And he continues to remain involved in the Olympic movement as an ambassador to the Olympic Games and Special Olympics. And he also serves as a broadcaster for NBC. So in addition to that, he's on the 2026-2030 Winter Olympic Committee for Salt Lake City, and he's involved for the 2028 Summer Olympics

in Los Angeles. So why would that be? Because he understands what it means to be an Olympian at the highest level and to pursue one's dreams by backing one's life efforts to be able to be committed to that aim. And so this is a little bit of a soapbox moment for me when I think about the difference between the average and the extraordinary and even the high performers and the extraordinaries. So it's one thing to say, okay, I'm going to stand for fill in the blanks, whether it's gold medals or it's love or it is whatever virtue or value that you have. But what Apollo's done is he's fundamentally organized his life around those principles. So he didn't just say that I want to be about compassion or whatever it is non-athletic that you might be interested in. But he said,

I'm going to back my life in and organize my inner and outer life to be about it on a consistent basis. And he ended up taking it to the highest level. So there's a difference between folks that just say it and those that say it and do it, but don't chip all in and those that say it and day in and day out commit to it at the highest level. He also is a New York Times bestselling author. Does that surprise you? No, it does not. And he's got a new book that he's working on right now. And it's about transition from the Olympic spotlight into real life. And he talks about his challenges and failures and his triumphs, of course. And we definitely touch on transition in this conversation. It's an important process in the

human experience. There are transitions from the seasons of our life, whether that be from an age chronological standpoint, or that is from an experiential standpoint. Transitions are an important part of life. So we hit that in here. And something to note about him is that Apollo is a dominant competitor. And I don't mean that word lightly. I'm not just throwing that around. There are people that are true competitors, and then there are those that are dominant competitors. And what that means is they make their industry better. They challenge themselves so deeply that they themselves are working on the edges of their capacity. And in return, others around them are impacted by it. It doesn't mean that it's easy to be around dominant competitors, and it's wonderful, but they bring out the best. They are so committed to that competitive way. And so we get into that for sure. This is a candid conversation, and I think you'll really

appreciate his willingness to explore intimate topics. And it's that same mechanism to get to the edges of emotional vulnerability in this conversation that also played forward in his athletic career. It's the same mechanism. Let me explore, get into the edge, understand better by not just playing it safe, but by exploring where my edges and comfort zones lie. And so it's just a beautiful conversation in that way. It's evident. It is flat out evident that that's how he's done what he's done.

And so one more thing. As a quick idea, if you love this podcast as much as I do and you really have found some value in it, here's what I want you to do. Okay? I want you to help us grow now. And I want you to tell two friends about finding mastery. And maybe, maybe just take it a little step further. Just tell them about it. But if you're really feeling it, express that. But then grab their phone. You know they have a phone.

Grab their phone, get their passcode, ask them their passcode, and then show them where to listen. And then hit the subscribe button, right? Help us grow. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with the legend Apollo Anton Ono. Apollo. How you doing, Mike? I'm stoked to have you on. What you've done and who you are, are both equally incredibly powerful to me. And so when you, yeah, when we think about finding mastery, I think about it from finding mastery from

craft and self. And you certainly have hit both of those. So thank you for spending the time to come on. My pleasure. And congratulations. This is awesome. I love, as you know, we're both avid readers. I love learning.

I think life is all about a lifelong process and a learning process and the progress of progress of progress is something that I've struggled with post-career a lot. But I love stuff that dives deeper into kind of the real main driver, which is inside the brain. So it really, I mean, it's, I feel like I'm biased when I say it, you know, like the mind has so much, whatever, cause I spent my whole life. I think you're factual. Okay. So let's do this. You hit on like post-career, but something's been harder there. You also talked about like the mind and the brain being important. So let's just

start with that last one for you. Why has it been important? How have you found value in conditioning and strengthening it? So the mind to me, when I was a competitive Olympic athlete, it was the single differentiating tool that I had that I used to my advantage. So whenever you reach any certain level of success in sport. Most everyone on a genetic perspective, on a physiological preparation perspective, is around the same level. It's minute in terms of difference. Now, some people are pure genetic monsters and they're built out of granite and they're just different. However, I'm a firm believer that psychologically, such a large proponent of that comes from the way that you assert yourself through training, the way that you prepare yourself either visually,

through your meditation, through any type of preparatory stage leading up to, right before, during, and even post the competition is where the real fruit of all of this is. That's where the real gem is. And it took me many years to recognize that. When I was an athlete, I first got my entrance into the world of sports psychology at the age of 15, 16 years old, when an intern who was studying to get his PhD in sports psychology, his name was David Creswell. Came to the US Short Track Olympic training program in Colorado Springs and kind of lived in the dormitories alongside with us, almost as like a chaperone, but also wanted to kind of semi-conduct some of these interesting ideas that he had around how do you take a young 15-year-old who has all the physical talent in

the world, but doesn't understand why he continuously keeps making mistakes or can't repeat his consistency and success over and over. That was my first entrance into the four ways. So from there, I became fascinated with not only human behavior, but also when it comes down to neuroscience and also the power of the mind and how much we know now, but how little actually that we exercise upon that. And so, you know, I genetically had some talents in my sport, but I think, and I would say this very confidently that the single differentiating tool has always been in how I approached my mental training and how that has impacted my life in career. And then now post, and we can talk about that later too, it's been a really

beautiful tool to use and something that, um, I used even this morning, even on the way down here to drive and hang out, I use it. So it's become a daily ritualistic component of my life that changes the quality of my life. So, which I think actually is even more important than me becoming a high performer in those high competitive years as an athlete. Golly. I mean, there's no doubt that you've put in the work physically and as you're speaking mentally, you know, I hear your framework, which is the four phases of competition, you know, um, practice pre-competition competition post. And we could, I could take this, I think a hundred different directions with you. We could deconstruct those four phases and how you train mentally there. But if we started at like just top level and

you were to say, okay, the number one characteristic for me to train, the number one principle for me to train, what was that for you on the psychological side? The number one on the psychological side. Yeah, it's interesting. So let me think back. I think the most important thing for me, one of, it's so hard for me to pick one, but the one of is, is truly like understanding why I'm doing what I'm doing. So that why of, if I'm going into the weight room or I'm about to get up in the morning and I'm driving to the ice rink at six 30 in the morning, I'm going to spend hours there before I come back home for lunch or it's my third or fourth workout of the day and now I'm on the treadmill I need to truly understand what is my intention for this

workout that I think that's where it starts and then obviously like what are the physiological benefits here why is this going to hurt a certain way? Which energy system am I actually training? Why is this important? This may seem boring. I've been going in circles for 15 years of my life, literally. Why is it not getting better? Those things are later, but I think the intention of what is the sole purpose here? In this nano goal, this micro goal that I've set forth on a daily, weekly, monthly, yearly schedule. And then at the end of these four years, the ultimate goal is not only to perform at my highest possible level and potential or surpass it, but more so be able to look back and reflect on those four years after that training and say, I feel happy about that entire progress that has happened, whether I was injured, whether it

was really tough, whether I didn't reach the level I needed to. At least I know that I was trying to control or at least turn over any of those stones during that preparation stage. So that intention starts, I think, on day one. Let's say it's 1998 and the Games are in 2002 in four years. Much easier said than done because it seems so far away. Very few people plan four years in advance. That's the Olympic life, right? Everything you do today is going to be indicative of some capacity in four years. Now, does it really come down to that substrate of that microcosm of every single

minute of the day will impact you later? But I don't know. But I think that intention is probably the most important thing. Because when my intention is off, or if I'm going through the motions, the workout is 20% difference. That's a huge difference in terms of not only physically, but also how I reap those rewards mentally. Yeah. You know, you use the word earlier on about asserting yourself in practice. I've never heard anyone say that. I've never heard somebody use that phrase and now you're snapping it to the idea of having an intention. And it feels to me that you've got a couple of words that we could explore here. We've got purpose. What's my bigger purpose in life, which we haven't talked about.

And then mission. So it's like a four-year mission. And then hopefully the mission and purpose line up with each other. It's better when it does. And then you've got these mini missions, right? Let's call them monthly or yearly, monthly, weekly, even daily. And then inside of a daily practice, it sounds like you're waking up or walking into the arena, whether it was again here for this conversation, you're still using it

now or walking into training facility saying, it feels like you're just taking a moment, a beat and getting clear on what it is that you're doing today. Is that close? Yeah, exactly. Okay. So walk me through, like walk me through a threshold. Is it getting out of bed that you set your intention or is it walking into a training facility? And then how do you actually set your intention? What is that? tasks that I'm doing tomorrow. It's mechanical in terms of going step by step, but it's also almost setting my framework mentally for each task. So task one would be I'm at the ice rink. What is the actual workout? Why am I doing this? What is my, what is my intent for this particular workout? And you're doing that in your mind. You're not writing it. But a little bit of both. A little bit of both. The writing is much shorter much shorter okay the journaling is much shorter and then upon the morning is even more kind of um targeted specific uh uh sentences revolving around that workout okay and then that's more the intention right there right okay so you're

using you're saying intention and you're which is like how you want to do something not what so the mechanics are what am i doing intention is how am i going to show up and do it right be about it if you will and then it feels like or sounds like you're using imagery as one of the training mechanisms to get a quick snap of it right and then in the morning like let's say it's you know 10 minutes before or during my warm-up for the actual training like let's say it's, you know, 10 minutes before or during my warmup for the actual training session, that's when regardless of my emotional state, uh, the intention was set beforehand. So therefore that happens to be the main focal and priority for the workout. Love it. Okay. So let's go back. Do you use thresholds or is that just something I'm

introducing to your mechanisms? Uh, I know of thresholds, but I, yeah, I never thought of it in that way. So I think the threshold, like, okay, when I'm heading into somewhere or I'm getting out of something, like there's thresholds, there's ways. And like, for me, easy practice is at home. Like I don't bring work into the home, you know, so I'll get all weight in the driveway garage, in my car, on my phone, finishing a conversation before I cross that threshold. And I, I'm not as disciplined when I do other things, but I've done it for surfing and whatever in the ocean, like as you can recognize the ocean there, there can be consequences. It doesn't have to be any, but I've learned that I've got to have that threshold, that moment to say,

get your stuff together now. Like something you're about to do is important. So it sounds like there's some similarity here, but let's say, can you concretely give me what an intention might've sounded like for you? Sure. So in my head, the intention for a workout would be, regardless of pain, of physical pain during this workout, I know that these specific lap times will be hit, and this is how I'm going to do it. Now, that's quasi-mechanical in a way, because it involves numbers, but it's more the intention of,

I'm just trying to get, I'm just trying to jostle my memory. So for example, we used to do these workouts called spec 1000. It's basically like high interval, high intensity interval training on the ice when you're doing nine lap intervals. So three, three laps at this pace, three laps at another faster pace, three laps at another pace. And you do like three, uh, major sets of six times nine laps. So it's a longer workout, very high intensity. Um, usually halfway through people are starting to drop off significantly. So my intention would be, I will not allow the physical pain to affect my lap times and technique. Um, regardless of whether that actually happens or not. That's so believable to you like seeing you

operate the way you operate when the lights are on yeah that you trained that no matter what the internal condition is yeah we're talking about lactic acid yeah brandy kinase like blowing up inside your muscles right that's what we're talking we're not talking about like joint pain necessarily we're talking about thresholds of acid in your body right is that right yeah yeah or in the temperature of your body right right um that you're not going to let any internal noise dictate your mind right and definitely if you can master that you're not going to let any external noise cameras billboards stats people watching whatever right that you're not letting that stuff dictate your internal mechanisms as well right i love that say the phrase again to me i'm not gonna let so it's i will not allow the physical pain to affect the lap time production or the output

right so if i'm trying to hit a certain wattage, and these are sometimes, they're almost mantra-esque because many times, regardless of my intention, the physical pain would affect me and I would sit higher in terms of body position, which would make me go slower. Trying to get out of it. Right? Trying to get out of the pain by sitting higher. Yeah, there's some kind of a consequence, right? Yeah. Can we go into that moment, those moments? Because that's what makes us those moments where there's an intersection

between uncomfortableness, pain, something. Yeah. Right. What do we do with those moments? So you're saying with all transparency, you're like, listen, I might set the attention. Yeah. And then when I actually get to that intersection, I pop out of the way I want to be the way I hoped I would be.

I think everyone who went into the ring trying to fight Mike Tyson had a good intention of trying to win. Until he punched him in the face. He's always said that. Everyone's got a plan to get punched in the face. It's very similar. We train our entire career for a moment and then you get on and you try to change your technique to a certain

perspective and you skate amazing in practice for years. As soon as you get tired in competition, you somehow revert back to your own style. That's the habituation, right? So I wanted to break that to where my natural state was always going to be the same. And I felt that if I could control the way that my relationship was with pain, physical pain, and that pain was a lot of, most of my pain was probably internal. Like I was my own worst enemy many times over. What does that mean to you? So a lot of the races that I won or lost was usually done pre-race.

So my natural physical preparation was always very high, probably better than most. I would argue probably the absolute best. Hold on. That's a really cool statement that you just made. Like it was the best, not like one of the best, like your physical training was the best. Yeah. We're talking about globally. I would say globally. Absolutely. Now some guys genetically designed, they're faster,

more explosive, they're sprinters. No amount of what I did could probably beat them. But I think overall the course of a 42nd race, I still felt like I was better prepared than they ever could be. And does that mean your plan was better for physical training or your technique was superior? Technique was never superior. Okay. So it was more about a volume intensity. It was purely based on my physical training. So I knew that there were some technical characteristics that I could not copy like the South Koreans

or the Chinese. They innately had specific body types that were designed for short track speed skating. Very specific body types that I could, I tried to emulate

later on in my career and dropped 20 pounds and all this kind of extreme training to do that and reach those goals. But still, it was not my natural state. It was not my baseline. My body was fighting against it

to always gain five, 10 pounds consistently. So that was always a battle. But mentally, I knew that if I ever had the opportunity to train alongside them, they were more efficient at skating than I was. They were faster. But in all of the other areas of training, whether it's running, biking,

plyometrics with a weight vest, in the weight room, all of those areas, I could dominate 99% of the world. And so that gives me confidence to know that no one is better physically prepared than I am. So that comes to the last, we think the last 1%, but it's probably the last 50%.

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Felix Gray is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Wow, you just took a big number, 1% to 50. Right. Yeah, that's okay. But for you, you're saying that I would, I was so buttoned up on my physical training that I, it allowed me to say something to myself that was real. What was that thing that you would say to yourself about your physical training? And because as you would well recognize that confidence comes from what you say to yourself,

nobody can give it to you. You have to earn it and you earn it by doing difficult things. And your difficult thing was about physical training was one of the extreme, extreme training, extreme training. So what would you, what was the actual thing that would bounce around in your head that would get you to kind of have that feel behind your eyes?

You know, that, that vibe about you that like, let's go. Uh, I just felt like no one wanted as bad. So they weren't willing to do the things that I was willing to do, whether it's self inflicted, right? When I say extreme training, I'm just like talking dumb training. Like let's go up the Manitou incline in Colorado Springs with a 45 pound weight vest and let's do it five times in a row. It's got no physiological benefit for a short track athlete after probably the first time you go up. But let's just see what happens mentally.

When will you crack and what happens when you crack? Will you continue? Will you back off? Will you rest? Will you decide, ah, three is enough? I did that all the time. And I never wanted to do it publicly around my team. So I used to do it alone because I was afraid of showing cracks in my armor to anyone else. I wanted to seem like the cyborg that I was completely lost my mind that pain did not have an effect on me during training and that I, I loved it. I liked it. That to me gave me the confidence that when I went to a competition, I knew that other people weren't as kind of silly in the same way that I approached skating. Because I know their training patterns. I knew their training environment.

I knew who was writing the program. I knew what was hard. I didn't know kind of what they did on their own. But I knew to a certain degree who was really kind of off their rocker, willing to do whatever it took, whether it made sense from a sports science perspective or not. And who was really willing to see what they were made of mentally. So for me, this is, you know, this again, this is like 1998 until 2010, right? So we've got everyone's focus on recovery now. Everyone's focused on the mental state.

All of these things are very, you know, we've got these tools that measure and analyze and we've got the metrics and all this data. We kind of had access to that information. It was scant though. It was, it was, yeah, it was hard.

It was, there was lots of friction to get it. And we'd like to think that our USOC athletes had access to it. It was there, but it was still high friction. It was there, but it was more up to the athlete to really seek it out. It still is now,

but it's better available. Yeah. And it's more accepted. Yeah. It's much up to the athlete to really seek it out. It still is now, but it's better available. Yeah. And it's more accepted. Yeah, it definitely is. Much more accepted. So with probably the exception of like some of the wrestlers, right? Because to me, those guys still defy all sports science metric. They're just, they're different human beings.

And I say that with every single ounce of respect and admiration. Because I learned actually a lot of that psychology from living and training in the Olympic Training Center, roommates with a wrestler, being the only non-wrestler in the sauna, watching them cut weight, talking to them, understand why they're on the raisin diet for four weeks straight. Here, you get four raisins for four weeks. It's crazy. And it's still having the output that they have. They were just a different type of human. And this is judo and taekwondo. Anyone who cuts weight can relate to that. I never had to cut weight to make weight, but I did cut weight later on in my career. So the mental part, for me to reach that state where I walk in and I have the fire and nothing will stop me, whether someone has a torch in front of me and I'm actually physically

on fire, you know, a man possessed. So I wanted to replicate that going into competition. The only way that I ever actually was defeated many, many times was usually not from my opponents. It was from some hesitation or a lack of belief within myself. So that fear, that fear of failure that is consistent amongst, I think some athletes, some athletes are pure rage. They're hyper alpha, like, you know, they know they're going to win every time. I wouldn't say I was in that kind of category in that camp. I was at the camp, especially during the preparatory phase of, I am, I'm so afraid of not being prepared enough. And I always feel like even though I was the guy winning consistently, I didn't have the target on my back.

I felt like I was the underdog. So when you train like you're the underdog, you are Clubber Lang. You have no – I don't know why it is that way, but it's almost like when you can see the target in front of you and you're chasing it, it's easier than if you are the target and you no longer can see it. And you're the one having to create this next level, this improvement, this progress over and over again. And so that's what drove me to these extreme trainings was I felt like I got to do something different. I, I genetically and technically I'm not as gifted as some of these other athletes. I know that the other guys I might, it started with my team and I, I'm not as gifted as some of these other athletes. I know that the other guys, it started with my team, and I love those guys. They're my teammates. I watched how they train. I watched their relationship with pain. I watched their relationship with nutrition and recovery and how they approached certain workouts versus others. And I started to recognize,

well, if they're showing these human behavior patterns, I know that everyone has them all over the world. How do I not create that atmosphere for myself? How do I look at every workout, whether I'm good at it or not, and dominate that workout over and over and over again? Even when I, the night before, I was doing two or three additional workouts that my team wasn't doing, so I show up on that Thursday really tired and fatigued, I still expect myself to be level here. When they're fresh and they feel good, I still expect myself to be level here when they're fresh and they feel good. I still want to dominate those workouts. So it started domestically and then that's how it went internationally as well. But many times I would walk into an arena and even with all of that

confidence, even with all of that preparation, even with all of that visualization and dedication and sacrifice for what I was doing, I still would defeat myself internally by not allowing what I had done and prepared for to just unfold. And I think that's a little bit of letting go of the reins, right? I've been so hyper-focused on trying to control every single microcosm of moment in time and not recognizing that, hey, like the work is already done. Now you're at the moment where the curtain is open and you can display what you've been working so hard on. That's a beautiful thought process to go through versus, oh man, like those guys look so good on the ice. You know, like we compete

tomorrow and I'm watching them in practice. Wow. They look like the technically they look like machines out there. They're so efficient and allowing that to affect what my psychology is. And so for some athletes, they would never watch the other athletes pre-competition because they didn't want that to affect their confidence level. I'm a huge, confidence is so big. Um, but I've won many times not being confident many times actually having a lot of fear, right? Yeah. It's a cornerstone and it does not have to be in place. It's just a lot harder when it's not. Yeah. And it is, it to be in place. It's just a lot harder when it's not. Yeah. And it is, it's something that we can train. You can train confidence. It has to be real.

You can't fake it till you make it that thing. I don't know. Maybe you're going to chin check me on that concept, but it's not durable. It's not strong enough to fake anything. It will be exposed. So I think, I think I agree with you. Yeah. I would, I would always sense when some athletes were faking their confidence, I could feel it. I knew they were actually not having that great of a day and they actually looked like they were standing a little bit extra higher. Their chest was puffed out even more because they were lacking. And it works to a certain degree until they can kind of find their groove again. Right? So if you allow them to find their pattern and they can kind of build on that momentum, like a snowball, then it gets dangerous.

So what I would do is I would crack it right away. How would you do it? I would, I like if we're like, let's say it's a thousand meters. Um, so something that we do in short track speed skating is if someone's leading in a race and you pass them so fast that there's like no contact, um, this is really bad. I would like, I would actually look at them when I would go by sometimes. So I would, or I wouldn't even pass. I would, I would, I would move up from being in second place. I would go right next to them in the straightaway, look at them and they would look back. They would know.

Cause you could see if someone like, I would go a little bit ahead right so you can imagine the guy on the highway is going next to you he pulls over to the side and he looks at you in the face you look at him and you and you and i would just show them like if this is your top speed you just didn't prepare good enough and like that everything is out the window for them everything for the rest of the competition they knew that i owned their entire the window for them. Everything for the rest of the competition. They knew that I owned their entire, their being for that competition. So that was, I mean, and like, if you ask my teammates the same thing, like my main goal every single time, this is very destructive, but my main goal every single time he was either on the ice was to absolutely fracture their, their mental state. And it was kind of sometimes the only thing

that I had to my advantage. There was many times that I would step on the ice and most guys were actually, they were just better than me during that competition. And I knew that. There was a few guys on my team who had that competition, that mindset. But here they weren't as strong.

In your mind, in the mind. And so I knew that if I could somehow get into their head pre-competition or during before the final, it would change all of the outcomes. And it did, I would say it did 10 out of 10 times. that if I could somehow get into their head pre-competition or during before the final, it would change all of the outcomes. And it did, I would say it did 10 out of 10 times. So I did a bunch of work in heavyweight boxing and pre-fight like the weigh-ins, there was a battle there that takes place and it looks like it's staged or whatever. There's so much going on underneath the surface. So guys would come back and say, when you're really honest, they would say, this dude is like, I couldn't break him.

Right? Just in the stare down. This is the day before. And so we started to come up with strategies. Like, how do you be big? What are you saying to yourself? How do you hold yourself to muster all of that intensity that you possibly can have? It's incredible. incredible to access it

right there it's fascinating it's it yeah it's a fight can be lost actually not even the day of the days the day before the day before even and even the so big john mccarthy in the ufc yeah he and i did a project together and so he was like referee number one maybe that's accurate maybe it was like the second ufc or third something. He's been around a long time. What's up, John? And so he said that with 92 to 95% accuracy, he's kind of making it up, that he could tell pre-fight who was going to win. Wow. The day of. When they're announcing people's names and they walk in and there's another gentleman that's holding the microphone under his arm and he's giving the instructions for the fight and looking at each of the fighters he says nine out of ten times i can tell who's gonna win wow

that's powerful based on what he's feeling and seeing and that's all micro expressions at that point right to your point you would try to fracture the athlete right right your teammate slash competitor how many spots uh how many olympians do we take to the games in short there's four men who make the four men and four women who make the Olympic team. Yeah. Across the country. And then if you qualify each spot, um, there's two up to three maximum who can compete individually each distance. Yeah. So we're only talking about your, we're only talking about a handful of athletes and your teammates, you're competing for a spot. Correct. With your teammates. So it's teammate yes slash competitor correct right yeah okay so then

you're let's go way back to what we're talking about is that you'd set an intention you got a four-year mission now is your mission to win or to be your best is it both it's both i believe that my best was winning okay so then what are you trying to do on a daily basis? Be your best or be better than the dude next to you? Both. Okay. Because the fracturing piece is like better than them. It's both.

If you had to pick one, if one was weighted 51% versus 49%, which one are you going to lead with? The issue in short track speed skating was that I was always the captain of the team. And so while my teammates may or may not have always been metal threat contenders, I always was. So if my gauge is just beating them, that oftentimes is not enough. So therefore, I started to add additional challenges into the mix. And so that's why I said I add additional challenges into the mix. And so that's why I said I would show up to the workout that morning of completely fatigued.

And I still wanted to dominate that workout when they're fresh. Yeah. In other words, they're younger, they weren't as talented, they didn't have the experience, they couldn't carry the bags that you were carrying. Sometimes they did. Yeah. Sometimes, right. I mean, we're talking about national world level athletes. I would say, you know, towards the end of my career, well, no, I mean, throughout my whole career, it was, it was always a battle inside. That was the one that was the most important. So the gauge that I used was the Intel that I would get from people who lived or were videotaping or

sending me information on the current team in Canada, in Russia, in China, in Korea, wherever they are. And I said, this is what they did this morning in their training. And I would say, oh, shit, I can't do that. If they do that in competition, I actually won't be able to do anything about that. And then that's what led me to this other belief of, well, I have two options here. One, I just pray that they never use that strategy against me. Or B, I try to break them beforehand. And that happened to be my... That was your go-to.

Did they know you were doing that? So I talked to some of the South Korean athletes. So my first Olympic Games was in 2002 in Salt Lake City. And then I went again in 2006 to the Torino Games and then again in 2010. So before the 2006 Olympic Games in Torino, Italy, I went and lived in South Korea to see what it was really like there and train alongside the national team. And so after spending three months there, I remember talking to them, asking them like, what did you actually think of me before the 2002 Olympic games then? And there, it was really interesting. So they said, we thought that you had this incredible American

technology team that NASA was behind, that was helping you with your equipment and helping you with your training because you were so powerful and so fast, there was no explanation because you technically aren't that gifted of a skater. That's what they had in their head, which was not the truth. That's not the truth. If I'm hearing it correctly, it was your mental game. It was my mental game. And it was the training. It was the training. Well, I would say it started with your approach that I'm going to work harder, better, correctly it was your mental game it was my mental game and it was the training it was well i would say it started with your approach that i'm gonna work harder better bigger whatever whatever

whatever right than anyone else on the planet yeah and that's going to give me a distinct advantage physiologically but also psychologically yeah yeah okay and then And then wrestling. Living in the Olympic Training Center alongside the Greco and freestyle wrestlers. They talk about breaking people, hearing their will crack. Have you heard that phrase? I've seen it. I've seen them do it during training. They do these grind sessions where they're wrestling another human for 60 minutes straight. I forgot the coaches. And then after, Mameer, I don't know

his last name, he would take everyone in the sauna. And I'm the only non-wrestler in the sauna. And I'm just kind of tucked away in the corner and just watching this, what happens? And Mameer stands by the door and guys are in there. And I'm in there and I want to get out. But I want to see what happens. So I'm also really fascinated with what is happening. I never really watched these guys. Because they weren't cutting weight. They were just going through this exercise. And for Amir, it was all mental.

Everything in wrestling is mental. That's all it was for him. And so he won his first world championship when he was 17 years old. So if you didn't, he's like, what's wrong with you? I don't understand. I did it when I was 17 or 19 years old. I don't see what's like, what's wrong with you? I don't understand. Oh, I did it when I was 17 or 19 years old. I don't see what the problem is.

And then so guys would say, Mimir, I got to get out. I got to cool off and get some water. And then Mimir would just stand by the door. He's like, what are you talking about?

I think he was from some eastern block region of the world. It's like right now in a litigious world that we're in, it's so dangerous. We can't even do it now.

It'd be a nightmare. But the the point breaking people on the mat he was trying to expand that breaking point in a heated condition yeah i think it's you know like i i i read about these iowa these iowa wrestlers right and the mentality behind jumping off the cables plane. Dan Gable's legacy is ridiculous. So to me, I wanted... Look, my sport was not as brutal and historical as wrestling. But I fell in love with their mentality. And I saw that that had to be applicable because no one in my sport had that same type of psychology that I saw. Some of the older skaters did, which I really kind of liked. So I wanted to curate that type of psychology in my sport. I wanted to have this never die attitude. And the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep.

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Okay. So let's go back into that statement that you were making, which is, I'd say it again, never let, it was like a negative, never die. Never. No, no, no, not that statement. Like, uh, your intention for the day. Right. Right. And so it was like, I was going to talk about this when you said it, but then I let it go, which was, it's like a negative, negatively, um, position statement, which is don't do this right which is don't give into the pain not in your words and i thought like but it has so much juice to it the way that you said it it's it wasn't like stay in it when it's hard it was like refuse to give into pain right right okay so what would you do now? Drop into that intersection when

you're on lap, whatever you feel the lactic acid, you know, blowing up your muscles. You want to stand up. You want to give yourself a break. What would you do? How would you organize your thinking patterns then? So, because I think my intention was set pre I, I was ready for when those moments came. You're looking for it. Yeah, which is also sometimes negative, right? You can kind of initiate that process too early. Oh, there it is. Oh, there it is. Yeah.

Ignorance is bliss sometimes, right? And so, by the way, it wasn't always the same mental approach every time. Sometimes the mental approach was, hey, this is a physiological byproduct of this happening. And an hour from now, you will not feel any pain. This is fine. This is just a natural production and cycle of what happens being a human being. And it's okay. So just observe what this feels like. Other times it was very angry towards the pain, almost like, you know,

you're standing there and you want more, like bring it on. This can never hurt me. Nothing can hurt me. Other times it was a much different, much softer conversation internally. And both worked equally well during different times of my career. So in this particular instance, it was much more steel-headed and much more, it doesn't matter how much lactate I'm pumping through my body, it will not affect me no matter what happens. And that's what you're saying to yourself. Yeah.

And so I actually would get pleasure, which sounds kind of messed up, from seeing other people crack. And then, you know, I'll hit their threshold of where they cracked and I would just keep going and keep going and keep going. And that's a little micro win, right? So it's like, okay, now I'm at, let's say there's five stages of the pain. Five, you're done. You physically can't move. If I'm at stage three, I know that I want to get as close as I can to stage five without digging myself so much of a hole that it actually turns out to be an injury. Right. And some of the stuff probably didn't make sense, but I was always

looking for that mental edge. To me, that's what it all came down to. The sports scientists that are listening to this are like, oh my God, this is awful. Like, you know, over, over training, under recovery. Yeah. Over trained for 80% of my career. Absolutely. Do you think you would be better physiologically if you trained according to their schedule, maybe at the compromise of your mental game? I don't know if I would want to. I hear that. I don't know if I would want to looking back on my career. I got so much, there were so many attributes that were built during those times of looking deep in the fire and being in the fire. That's when I really,

you know, that's to me, that was the benefit regardless of the physical outcome. It was, that was the benefit longterm. That was a benefit. So when I look back in, so in 2014,

I went and did an Ironman triathlon and did the one in Kona, Hawaii. And that was a big departure from a 40-second race. Hold on. You all right? Kona is like tip of the arrow for Ironman. It was hot. It was very hot.

Yeah, but did you get invited? I got invited. So through a sponsor. Was this like a celebrity invite? Or did you actually have some chops? No, I had an invite. But because of that idea of, oh, you're just a celebrity, you're getting invited, you're not going to take it seriously.

I did not want to be that guy. I wanted to make sure that I could do the sport justice. And so I really tried to dedicate myself. Now, look, it was only like a seven-month preparation. But I did the best I possibly could. And I cracked. Like when I did my first half Ironman, uh, I was like, this is insane. People do this all the time. This woman, Charlotte, who's like 72 years old, just smoked by me running.

It's crazy. What the hell's going on? I'm an Olympic champion. You know, this is not right. Yeah. I met my match, uh, in, in an ocean row that I did. It was like 30 standup paddle, 30, 30 some miles. That's wow. That's a lot. Yeah. I met my match in an ocean row that I did. It was like stand and paddle 30 some miles. Wow. That's a lot. Yeah. It was eight and a half hours. Let's call it like, well, the first phase was maybe like

70% max. And then towards the end, it was like 99% max. Like I was just like completely toasted myself but that those moments were you know get on your knees or in surrender or stay the course i know what it worked for how i work in those moments but i still don't know how you do it like when when the lactic acid is flowing like what do you actually say to yourself it's different every time so in this particular instance the example that we're using i get i get this hard and soft you've got two approaches yeah calm too there's probably a few more but basically it's you know it's called red and blue right red is like pure rage almost angry bring the pain uh let's see how long i last um sometimes you punch yourself out when you when

you go in that realm and you're using kind of too much energy to, you're too restrictive. But mentally, it was just, I'm just trying to think of what I would say because it was more like just grit teeth and just almost a go harder, right? So like, let's say on these thousand meter spec,

I'm supposed to be doing, you know, 9.3 for the first three laps this means nothing to most people listening 9.0 just just basically getting faster i would do 9.2 for the first three laps towards the end of this spec so like if i just did six sets and i have six more to go i would then start i would start to get better in my lap times i would start to get faster in my lap times. I would start to get faster, which makes no sense, right? Which probably means that I probably should have started faster in the beginning. But to me, it was like, okay, now I'm going to turn it up a dial. So if my max threshold of my heart rate is, let's call it 188, right? That's when I'm peaked at my VO2 max test. Let's see how long I can sustain 175 throughout the remainder.

I'm not thinking these things. So cognitively, I'm not thinking much actually. I'm just thinking about the task at hand and the relationship with the pain. So I know it's there and I just almost just keep pushing against it. Keep pushing against it. What can pain teach us? I think pain teaches us how good it feels not to have pain. Right? I mean, you don't really recognize, like, we're just sitting here right now and I have zero pain in my body. I don't know how good this really feels until I go and put on three plates and a squat rack and try to do 100 reps in five minutes. You know, like, I don't know what that what that, you don't appreciate what it feels like

when you're not actually physically in pain. If we take more of a big life, philosophical, zen approach to what you're doing, what were you doing for those 16 years, those 20 years of preparation? I was testing myself. Keep going. Testing myself regardless of the career path or the sport that I was doing. I was trying to see what I was made of. How much could I take and bounce back from? How badly do I want to accomplish

something as a human being, regardless of what that is? And how can I learn from those mistakes that I made during those times when I didn't perform my best? And how can I eliminate those possibilities later on in my life? How can I grow from them? How can I recognize that I have the ability to tackle any problem, any pain, any issue that throws itself in front of me, or that I inflicted upon myself, whether it's through business or a bad decision or a bad relationship or whatever those things are, I still have the ability to take that and come back, keep getting back up no matter how many times I've been hurt, I've been injured, I've failed, I haven't hit the mark. I always

have that choice to continue to keep going on or make a slight change and do it a different way. Where did that come from? I'm thinking family structure. I'm thinking early life experiences that took place for you that shaped your want, your whole life organized around the desire to understand what you're capable of? Where did that come from? I think part of it came from the upbringing that my father gave me, single parent household, my father being a Japanese immigrant coming to the US, me witnessing how much he dedicated to raise me and him also being such a tiger dad and showing me certain aspects of my life that I could be successful at. And if I failed at it, that's not the end all conversation, but the conversation actually starts when you fail. So upon your failure, how do we talk about this in a way that you can extract

why actually did you not hit this mark? What happened? What was your preparation like? If you could do it over again, what would that look like? What would you do differently? You get a do-over. What does that look like? Okay, let's go upstream before that. The caring is a big part of it. So what is it that you cared about? And give me the age that we're talking about as well, right? Because you're applying so much effort into organizing your life and your mind and your body and technique and everything that you get to have that conversation because at the moment of some sort of failure or pain that you say that there's a moment to have a conversation with your dad, you had to care.

Right? Because if you don't care, it's like no big deal. So what were you caring? What did you care most about? So I, being in a single parent household, the thing that I sought the most was love for my father. So you're using sport as a way to get attention and love? Academics, sport. It was everything.

Everything. It was always, and that probably still reigns in today. So the micro traumas that I carry with me as a human today, I always, that elucidates the relationship that I have with my father. How old are you? I'm 37 now. Is your dad still alive? My dad's still alive, very healthy.

I just saw him a week and a half ago. Okay. And our relationship has morphed and changed and progressed in so many different ways, which is I'm so grateful to have him there as a teacher. I'll give you an example. So when I was about, I think, nine years old, eight or nine years old, I was on the roller skating team at the local rink in Federal Way, Washington, Patterson's West. And so my dad at the time was religiously trying to find anything

that he could to help keep me on a focused track because I was such a hyperactive kid that had a tendency for mischievous type activities. And because it's a single parent household, my dad works most of the day and then he comes home and he just wants me to be tired so I go to sleep at night. So any parent out there who struggles with that,

like my dad feels your pain because he literally plunged me into every single possible after school activity and preschool activity you can imagine. So I'm now on this roller skating team. I'm getting better. I'm also doing swimming and a few other activities, but in this roller skating environment, my dad doesn't have the time to take me to the roller skating rink to practice with the other kids and the team. And I'm, he enrolled me in this competition that was like in six months or something like that. Okay. It was like in Lincoln,

Nebraska. And I wasn't, you know, I would practice once a week or something like that or once every other week. It wasn't enough. And so my dad knew that that wasn't enough. So what did my dad do? He started waking me up at like 3.30 and four in the morning before he went to school. It sounds like out of a movie. It's a true story. Eight or nine years old. We'd go to empty school or church parking lots it's pitch black my kid pitch black and he'd strap one of those miners lights on the helmet i would wear those and i would just skate around this parking lot by myself and my dad's sitting there with a clipboard i don't know what the hell he's taking notes of like you know like he didn't either no

he had no idea lap times all he knew that he to, you know, like in the most basic way, you do more, you practice, you'll get better. And he's right. And he's right. Early days. Yeah. And so that ingrained in me very early. So here's the real conversation, okay? Now, I'm eight or nine years old.

One morning, I wake up. And by the way, this is miserable. Like who wants to wake up that early? Unless you're, unless you get up that early. I don't. And you weren't driving it. I was absolutely not driving this. That's not my idea. How would you wake up? I want to get to the real story. He would just wake me up. Hey, time to get up. Let's go practice every morning. Okay. Before school, before he went to work. And so one morning, I remember telling my father, and some parents can be like, that sounds insane. My dad, look, everything my father did was purely out of love,

and he wanted the best for me. I recognize that now. Then I thought my dad hated me. I was like, this is insane. So one morning I tell my father, I don't want to do this anymore. I want to quit. And that moment in time of the way that my father's

face looked at me, and then the conversation that we have, and I don't remember the full conversation, but it was essentially, my dad said in kind of something of like these words of, explain to me why you want to quit. And he made it so difficult to quit. That's where that relationship with me and preparation and pain and never quitting came from, was from that moment. And I carry that with me many times throughout my career because it became he, it became so difficult for me. At the end of the day, I was only doing this sport, really. I kind of liked it, but I was only doing it because I knew it made him happy.

Right. And so when I saw that it made him unhappy and that unhappy, that was a trigger for me. And that created some microtrauma in my life during that time, whether he knew it or not. I mean, that really, I didn't know this until much later when I was doing deep work and starting to recognize like, oh my God, like that's where that fire came from of this like fear of not being enough when I go to the games, right? It started at the age of eight or nine. And so I'm very comfortable with that obviously now, but- You're talking about it in a very clinical way almost like surgically clean

that i had a microtrauma you know how did you work through that microtrauma how did you work i still work through it you're still working absolutely okay at what point did it get confusing for you and i'm going to mire two concepts who i am and what i do yeah right those are when those are fused at a young age, which definitely they got fused for you. Yeah. Right. It becomes really a difficult way to understand, well, do I matter outside of what I do? I am an athlete is a problematic statement for many, especially during the transition phases, which I want to get with you for sure. So when did you begin to decouple those two things? I'm different than just what I produce.

I started to have that conversation after my second Olympic Games. So I'm 25 years old. When I started to want to be more than Apollo Ono the speed skater yeah even your name became branded it was synonymous with two things dancing with the stars and speed skating that's right

was dancing with the stars post career? it was 2007 so still at the height of my career kind of in the middle of the height i retired in 2010 first olympic trials was 1998 uh yeah let's can we spend some time yeah it was it was i mean look that identity issue still is a huge challenge not because now I'm very comfortable being multifaceted, really interested and curious about life in all different facets all over the world, different businesses, different dynamics of people and cultures and food and travel, all that stuff is beautiful to me.

But for many, many, many, many years, and still today, people still identify me as that. So that relationship never fully, you never fully rid yourself of that part of your persona identity. And that's okay now. When I retired in 2010, I didn't want that identity as a Paula owner of the speed skater. I didn't want to have and carry that weight with me. I didn't want to have tons of Twitter and Instagram followers and Facebook followers. I didn't want that. What did you want? I wanted to have a level of success completely on the opposite spectrum of sport. Not because of my name, not because of my accolades or the doors that could open or

the opportunities, which is really stupid, by the way, to say, because those things are amazing curators of unique experiences and people and times and opportunities that you normally never would ever have had I not done that first stepping stone, which is the Olympics. But for whatever reason, I wanted to do it the same way that I reached my level of success in sport, and that was always the hard way. It was always as an underdog. It was always because of what I put into the sport. And it was always because of no help. Right? And so as an athlete, a lot of times you're not told to ask for help except from your coach once in a while. And my relationship with my coach was even more unique. I didn't even ask him or her for help. So it was in this like very small secular ball where I would bounce off my failures and wins inside of

my own persona. When I retired, I wanted to win in the same degree, in the same extreme fashion, in the same way that I did in sport. Business and life have so many similarities, but they're also vastly and wildly different. I cannot use rage or sadness or fears in the same way that it would propel me in the weight room. It just doesn't work that way. If I go into a team environment with a business and I walk in there with the same relationship that I had in that red zone with pain, that's going to make for a very uncomfortable meeting with everyone. And so I knew that right away. So I started spending time in Asia and trying to pursue all different types of businesses in Asia. Some were amazing, some were complete failures,

and learned a lot the hard way using my own time, resources, and capital to do so. And looking back, these are harsh, harsh lessons that I probably could have adverted. I could have gone a different direction and still had the same outcome. But I was so hardheaded in the same perspective that I didn't allow myself to go and start from scratch in the US around peers and people and mentors who wanted to help me and wanted to reach out. And so hopefully, if there are athletes listening, you recognize and realize post-career that your life is beginning. Whether you're a professional athlete or you're an Olympic athlete, your real life is really just beginning.

And if you can recognize even further that you've amassed this incredible list of experiences and attributes that can be applied towards your life post-sporting career. And relationships. And relationships with others and yourself is where it gets really, really, really interesting. And I didn't know this until many, many years after I retired, after the Ironman 2014. I didn't recognize it. I didn't feel it. I didn't know.

But it was a way for me to become much more introspective. So you have an extraordinary mind. The way that you think, the clarity that you have, the way you stitch ideas together, it really is impressive. Not that you're trying to impress me or anybody, but your mind is an asset. And I don't mean the condition of your mind. I'm talking about the structure, the way you organize your inner life and the ease of which you can eloquently explain who you are and the scenario at hand and how it impacts who you are or what you do. That being said, what is it that you are searching for in your life now? What are you craving? What are you searching for?

I crave deeper relationships with community. So my tribe, which is difficult when you travel a lot. I'm sure sometimes you feel that the same way. Yes. And also living in the digital world, which kind of negates what I deem to be fundamentally important as a human being. I'm not saying that social is bad, just saying that it can be a distraction and it can take away from what I think is really important. So I crave community. I crave fulfillment. And I know that's such a,

you know, a word that is thrown around so much, but I really do crave fulfillment and happiness that to me is kind of tied along with progress. I don't crave fame. I'm not interested in, I think, things that sometimes drive maybe some athletes post-career. I was driven financially heavily right when I retired. I'm very open about that. That to me was the scoreboard, right? I still use it as a metric because it kind of showcases that I'm trajecting towards the right goals that I set forth in front of me, but it doesn't necessarily have any impact on the community, the fulfillment, the happiness, and the progress. Progress in terms of your notching up. So in the most simple way possible, look, I crave to be healthy, to have healthy and happy relationships with my loved ones, which is a very small core group of

people. And I'm able to share those experiences with people and insights and mistakes with radical transparency so that they can understand themselves better and they themselves can inch towards being happier, more fulfilled. And I'm not coming on saying, hey, I'm an expert. I'm happy and fulfilled. I live this incredible kind of needless lifestyle of being Buddhist. That's not me. I am struggling with the same things that I struggled with when I was a kid. I now understand them more and I understand myself more and better. And I'll

continuously will as I grow to a degree where I feel like I'm, I have control over the perception of those challenges. I have control over the outcome of my response to those challenges. And sometimes I respond very well. And sometimes I revert back to my, you know, archaic caveman brain of fight or flight, kill or be killed type mentality. And that usually never works. And the more that I can recognize it, stop, it doesn't work that way in the real world. The more that I can recognize and say like, wow, like, is perhaps a better path and there is no one path for, for everyone, right? Everyone has their own unique perspective. So those are the things, Mike, that I really crave. Um, and I'm sure there's other things, you know, that are, that are important, but like, I, I'm like wildly enthusiastic on a daily basis about the problems, the challenges, and the beautiful things in my life, which leads me to gratitude. So, you know, if like, if we were having a conversation, we're just hanging out and you were like, Mike, like, if I could ask you, you know,

let's say you're 90 years old. Okay. And maybe you got, you know, 10, maybe 20 years of your life left. You're still healthy. Like, what do you want to be able to say about your life? Like, I always ask myself that, right? Because it's so easy to get caught up in. I got to do this today. I got to do this tomorrow. I got to do this next week. That was the psychology that I lived for four years.

Nothing matters today or nothing matters what I did four years ago. It only matters what I do today so that tomorrow I'm better so that in four years I'm better and I can win Olympic Games. And then what? Well, it sounds like to get some approvals from Pops. Most of it came from that. And it's not that clean. But deep down, there was that fracturing that you talked about, which is a really cool way to say it.

When you think back or when you project forward on the 90s, thinking back about your life, how do you answer it? Yeah. That's yeah. How do you do it? Like, what do you say? Uh, like how, what would my answer be? Yeah. Oh man. Um, I would love for the answer to be, um, I'm, I'm grateful for my family. I'm grateful. It's essentially being in a state of pure gratitude and also being able to look at your laugh and smile and almost laugh at the same time. When we battle our internal demons and those mistakes are still very fresh, it's difficult for us to laugh at them because we still feel that physical pain. We actually feel it. Blood pressure goes up, cortisol goes up. Physiologically, these markers are happening. The thing that I've noticed when I've talked to people who are much older is they kind of laugh at themselves at a younger age.

They almost take pleasure in telling these stories about their stupid mistakes they made. And I feel like there's such a sense of calm that comes with that and almost letting go of like, this is your life. Like you are going to make many, many mistakes. And you're always going to be able to come back from them. With the exception that you pass. Yeah, there's some mistakes people make. But the essence of what you're describing is the path of wisdom.

And I'm wondering if you are practicing anything from the wisdom traditions. Are you meditating? Are you doing mindfulness? Are you in inspired conversations with wise men and women? And are you reading those types of books? Like those and writing obviously is a form of reflection. But how are you practicing the art of wisdom? You know, it's funny.

I never thought about practicing the art of wisdom. Oh, yeah. Is that a book title? It should be. It should be one of your book titles. Yeah, right. I mean, look, we're sitting here and I'm looking at all these amazing books that you've had. And I know this is a tiny little fraction of your collection, but I also read heavily.

So I meditate daily. Do you? I do. I reflect daily. You know, I keep a little gratitude journal of the things that I, you know, even when it feels sometimes, you know, there's been days where I wake up and I'm like, tell me three things at the end of the day that you are really grateful for. And I struggle to find them because I just feel like the whole day was just a disaster. So in the morning, are you reflecting on yesterday's gratitude? Or when you get to the end of the day, are you reflecting on that day's? Um, yeah. So my, my journal is kind of

like when I wake up, I write down the mechanics, right? How many hours sleep I got? What are these things? I'm wearing this aura ring here, which gives me this sleep data. And then I kind of go into what are the three or four things that I'm the most grateful for today upon waking up. Sometimes I got an amazing night of sleep. Sometimes it's Monday and it feels amazing night of sleep. Sometimes it's, it's Monday and it feels like a fresh start to a week. Uh, or it's like, you know, I'm in Southern California

and I cannot ask for better. This weather is just so, it's such a blessing, whatever those things are, but really actually truly inherently becoming grateful for those things in that moment of time. And then it goes down to, um, down to what are the kind of the three things that I think are the most important for accomplishment today? Like if I could accomplish these three things, everything else could go to shit and I'm happy as hell today. Like that's next. And then at the end of the evening before I go to sleep,

it is what are the three amazing things that happened today? And are they in line with those three things that you set forth in front of you? And then at the very, very bottom is what are the three amazing things that happened today? And are they in line with those three things that you set forth in front of you? And then, and the very, very bottom is what are some of the things that you think you can improve upon for tomorrow? Really simple. It's been a practice. You kind of nailed the practice that I've been working with athletes for years, which

is at the end of practice, the end of competition as well, two questions. What went well? What do I want to work on? Yeah. And right. Like not what went wrong. Right. You Two questions. What went well? What do I want to work on? Yeah. And right. Like not what went wrong. Right. You know, but what went well, what do I want to work on? And as kind of a bookmarker, you know, or bookend of the day, but you're starting off in the morning just for mechanics. You're saying, this is what I'm grateful for. This is what I want to accomplish or do today. At the end of the day, this is how'd they go. Right. And then the final is like another gratitude bookend. It sounds like.

Yeah. I mean, like this morning it was like, I have three things. Like a friend of mine from Hong Kong is in town. I want to connect and spend time with him. This was important. So I said, I want to connect with Mike. I want to dive deep. I want to be open as much as I possibly can. And I want to have an amazing time spent together to where this is hyper quality, no phone, no one's around. There's no noises. We're just having a conversation about psychology, about human beings, about progress. So it makes sense of why you're free in this conversation because you actually set that intention, which is a, you know, a process that you've used for scores of years to be your very best. So where are the places inside you that are scratchy, you know, that

start to get itchy around, man, are we going to talk about that? And we don't have to go into them, but what are those rooms? What are those scratchy areas that get you a little bit confused or your cortisol pops up or that are hard for you to talk about? Hmm. Let me think. There's two off the top of my head. Not that I have difficulty talking about them. I just never really talk about them because no one really asks about them. One is I always talk about my amazing relationship with my

father. And oftentimes the question follow-up is, where's the mom? What's your relationship with your mom? So let's begin to start with that one. I don't have a relationship with my mother. My father raised me my entire life. When I say my entire life, as long as I I don't have a relationship with my mother. My father raised me my entire life. When I say my entire life, as long as I can, I actually don't have any memories of my mom, with the exception of one picture that I used to keep in my bedroom when I was very, very young. It was on a wooden block. I don't know if you remember those old wooden blocks. They've got the sides and you've got a picture on each side of the wooden block. And there's one picture of me as a baby and my mom is holding me.

That's the only memory that I have. And that's only because it's a picture, not because I remember that moment. I only remember that. And so because of this relationship I've had with this single parent household for so long, and me always wanting to make my father happy, the conversation around the mom was never really an issue until I started going to school and we would have Mother's Day card arts and crafts during school in which I don't have a mom in my life and I come home with a happy Mother's Day card, but it's for my dad. Now, I don't recognize that at that time because I don't know the difference. I have no idea. I don't go to anybody else's house. I don't know that at the time it was or wasn't normal. Most people who are in single parent households,

it's usually the mom who raises the child, not the father. So mine was my dad. And so I've never, to this day, I'm 37 years old. I've never actually spoken to my biological mother. And I don't know where she is. I don't know anything about her other than what my father tells me. And so that's a difficult conversation topic because obviously it's extremely private. But also because I just don't know. I also don't know what it's like to have a mom. I can kind of understand. I have a puppy now with my girlfriend. And so I see the difference in love that I have for the puppy versus her, her love for the puppy and the care is different. And that's just an animal. I have many friends who have kids. And so I see their relationship, mother and father

and hear their complaints, um, for my friends about why the parenting is so different and why these things change. Um, so it's one aspect where it's just been this void. And I'm absolutely certain, a very close friend of mine said the same thing when we were talking about microtrauma. And he says, Apollo, 1000%, you not having a mom has a huge impact on you as a human, huge. And this is going to sound weird when I say this. I never felt it. And I don't know why. I never longed to have a relationship with my mom. And maybe that's why many of my early relationships failed was maybe because of that, that result, and not having that female relationship or that motherly relationship for many, many years. Um, so that has been a,

you know, it's been something in the back of my head. It's not something that I think about on a daily basis, but I'm sure at some point I'd like to, you know, understand that to a greater degree to an area where, um, if, if someone is whole, right. And you've got all these kind of issues and challenges that you face, how do you face all of them right that's a great question that is a beautiful human question yeah and what has been the story you've told yourself about your mom and not having a mom what has been the thread that you've said to yourself privately about like and i imagine it could be anywhere from, I didn't matter enough to, um, all the way to the other extreme, which is like, this was the right choice for all of us.

You know, like what, what has been the main theme for you? It's been the latter, the latter, that this was the right choice. This was the right choice. Father was more suited to raise me, both financially and capability-wise. You don't need a mom, right? Maybe that's why I was so harsh both towards my teammates, towards my relationship with the other athletes when I competed. Almost, almost, you know, brutal in the relationship, not physically, but just the energy that I would project was, uh, that violence of energy. Yeah. I just got done reading. It was like a trilogy on Genghis Khan and it's coming up right now in this conversation, like just the alpha aggressive approach to life, you know, the conquering, the, you know, hardened approach to life. It sounds like you got a little bit of that. Not that your dad specifically gave you that model, but in the vacuum of what you're talking about with not having a female, just the tone of a female voice around on a regular basis does shape and shift particular parts of our brain as well.

So I'm not calling you Genghis Khan, but you did have that aggressive approach to like, I'm going to divide and conquer. Like, no doubt. Yeah, it was, I mean, there was, look, there was sometimes I wish that when I tell some of these stories, like I had a teammate there to kind of validate, right? What do you think he would say? They would just nod their heads. So when I would say that when I competed against my own teammates, I wanted to psychologically damage their ability to ever want to beat me.

It was very violent, right? So I didn't want to physically hurt anybody, but I wanted them to never, ever dare try to claim the throne. For 12 years, it was like that in the US. And when someone did and they came close, I took it very personally. It's a mix of Genghis Khan, Lord of the Flies. There's something super primal in your approach. And then are you making a dotted line back to mom with that? I did it in the past. I know it's definitely there. My biggest struggle, which I would love your help on probably, would be able to articulate that in a way. Because I don't physically know that I feel it. And maybe it's because I'm so good at layering this to where I've cut off that the door is still closed, right? So maybe that's one area of my life where there is no flow way. There is no

communication really back and forth because I've set forth this stone wall in front of me that says, I don't even feel like I needed a mom. I don't see what the big deal is. I've always had a great dad who fulfilled both of those roles. And I also felt empowered to tell my father that, hey, you did a great job raising me. I didn't need a mother. You were my mom. It would have been great to have one, but I didn't have one. And look how great I turned out. Like that would be the conversation I like to have with my dad. But I know deep down- You haven't had it yet?

We've had kind of conversations like that. What's getting in the way of that conversation? It's cultural. Because my father's Japanese, he's also very open. That conversation is not as fluid as if I'm talking to like my girlfriend or to a best friend. I've got a great relationship with my dad. I'm not confident that he will always give me the full transparency of what happened back then. Like why actually did you actually divorce? Why was there, why did you not make it work? It's always been a very specific answer to me. And maybe that's because he was trying to protect me up to a certain degree until he could see that I could stand on my own two feet. I think that's a lot, a lot of that's got to do with that.

Yeah. I think that as you're describing the scenario, this part of your life eloquently is that i can recognize much of it in my own life which is a this is why i said it earlier like this clinically surgical approach to dissecting one's own life and but not having the emotional piece fully snapped in place and so you got a big engine dude your horsepower in your in your skull is big and you can see it easily and you can compartmentalize well you can close door if you will right to your to your language and at the same time the vulnerability required to actually feel it is a different experience you know the longing for what you didn't have. Like how does somebody get in touch with craving something they never had?

Well, it's going to come through your relationships now that you have with people. And that vulnerability to be open, to be available, to be softer, you're going to need to work it out with your intimate relationships that you have now, which will be tricky for them. Or if you're in one relationship. yeah luckily i have someone very patient yeah for sure and for you to like figure out like okay because a male can't do a male female role and a female can't do a male female role like there's i you don't know what it's like to be a woman and neither do i neither does your dad right and so he was doing his very best, but there is something that we miss, you know, and it's not that different though than an adult or a parent who's in a relationship, but they're not really there because they're using drugs or workaholism or something, you know, there's still a void.

And I can remember at a young age for me, I was in fifth grade and saying to my mom, she goes, Mike, how are you? I was a bit of a handful, you know, growing up and how are you? I said, you know, I'm fine. I just feel like there's a part of me that's missing. You said that's your mom? Yeah. Wow. She goes, what do you mean? I said, there's just like an empty place in me. I can't describe it. Wow. You said that. That's incredible.

And I didn't know what it was. Looking back, I'm like, oh, I totally know what it is now. Like, but it was that longing for like this deep connection and with my dad and I didn't have it. And so I'm, I wonder what it would take for you to be able to get in touch with that. I'm not saying I had some special gift at age five. It just was apparent to me at that time. It's a special gift to be able to say that. Yeah. Well, at that time, like it was, I got to tell you a funny story about my son in a second, but I'm listening to my mentor's voice in my head right now. Yeah. His name's Gary. He's been with

me for a long time. And he says, when I just did this ultra, he said, and he's laughing on the other end of the conversation, like, look what you had to do to finally feel the thing that you wanted to feel your whole life. You had to go break yourself to hallucinations, you know, in the middle of the ocean, like to really feel what it feels like this is the big inside i had is um that loneliness is is a real thing and not being connected not what happened for me out in the ocean i was like oh this is what it feels to be on the other side of a selfish relationship and there's a longer story here but i I made the commitment afterwards. I'm never going to do that to my loved ones again. And so all the calcium broke loose. It feels like

you can't, the calcium is not going to break loose on you physically. You got to do it other ways. Yeah. Your threshold's too high. Yeah. I think so. What are you going to do? What are you going to do now? You know, like it's not physically. I'm going to go right tou and do a deep ayahuasca trip i don't know i mean that's where people are going like they're trying to explore yeah that's the reason why that's people are searching for that yeah and it's available to you to all of us right now we don't need to be depleted right or to be altered let me ask you this mike do you think part of my fear is that some of that drive that I have comes from these microtraumas? And some of my fear of becoming totally whole, which it's impossible, right? But at least getting closer to that moment will take away from my drive

and my hunger to continuously keep pushing and driving and improving. I don't want to lose that. I'm very fearful of being complacent and being, it's almost like there's a fear of being just happy. Like when you're present and you have gratitude, you don't want anything. You have actually everything that you need. And that took me a long time to recognize. But I still go in and out of that state like a surgeon. I have my kind of routine in the morning. I do what I need to do to feel that moment during that time.

But then as soon as I step out of that box into the world of, okay, now it's 6, 7, 8, 9 a.m. And now I'm going to go do the things I need to do. I'm still driven by that deep, deep, deep inside fire that's not just about this Genghis Khan, but there's something else that's there. I actually don't want to lose that. So there is a fear. So how and is that possible to be able to experience both? Can you come to terms, have your call it your burning man moment, right? Um, and also still retain those amazing, beautiful qualities of being a human

being who is a man or woman possessed on fire. That's awesome. That question is at the center of change for you. That is the right question. I mean, there's lots of questions that we could have about this, but the fear that everything that makes me special that allowed me to achieve much, I mean, we're talking about world leading, not just world-class, but your experience of being world leading, changing an industry, influencing the generations of young athletes from the Olympic spirit, like phenomenal. And the thought that that's going to go away if you found joy and happiness, you're not the first person to say it.

So there is a scratchiness to go back to that thought. There's an unsettledness that requires people that's underneath the surface for most people who are trying to figure out potential. And so it's just the right amount of OCD, just the right amount of anxiety, just the right amount of fuel and fire, just the right amount of perfectionism. In most cases, it's quote unquote crazy making, but when channeled in a pro-social way where we are herald by our outcome because of that unsettledness inside, it feels like it's permissible and it's okay. It becomes problematic for joy and peace and happiness.

The question that you're wrestling with, can I find joy and at the same time keep what's special about me? It will change. Your drive and everything will change. And I don't think you want to, it's a, there's a intersection here to explore. I don't think you want to be the 90 year old man that is like full of piss and vinegar.

Right. And looking for, looking at a hundred, right. Like 91, what am I going to do there? And how can I accomplish a, B and C?

So there is a migration away from what once worked to who we want to be, what will work now. And, you know, like there's a migration that needs to take place. I mean, if, if it's, if the goal is the path, the path that you're on now is understanding like how, how can I become my best self by letting go of some things and grabbing the new vine of who I want to become? So it will change. You'll change. You'll let go of the vine when you're ready. You know?

And so it's super esoteric, I know. But there's a story in my life where an athlete came in, a mom and an athlete. She was a potential Olympian. And she said, hey, I think my daughter's got OCD. I said, great. And so we had this nice little conversation that it was a gymnast. She was like beautiful little 13, 14 year old in that range and just a kind spirit. And I said, hey, can you leave the room for a minute while your mom and I talk? And we had this conversation about what she was struggling with. And I said, okay, I got it. I see it.

I can help with that OCD, but I'm not sure that your daughter is going to stay the course. What do you want to do? You know, in gymnastics. Mom looked at me. You know exactly what she did. She looked at me. She was like, okay, so you could help with the, you know, the dysfunction side of her, but she might not be good. Thank you very much, Dr. Jure.

That was it. I never saw her again. Oh, no. Yeah, she chose. Go to the next one. Yeah, she chose. Until she gets the right answer. Right, yeah.

You mean you can have both? Yeah. I mean, yes and no, but it was so problematic for her that was getting in the way of all of her other functions in her life. The challenge for you is it's not getting in the way of other functions of your life. Maybe just... Maybe it is, though. Which parts? Maybe it is. Maybe, I mean, I, you know, because a part, look, a part of me loves, I love certain aspects of my personality where I'm just never satisfied. And like, I have a lot of friends still in the, you remind me of a velociraptor.

Do you know those, those animals, the velociraptor, like they're like, you know, like on you're on it, you're switched on. They're amazing in that way. Do you have another side? I do. What is that? I mean, there's, and it's, it's taken me a lot of work over the past 10 years of being retired to recognize that I don't always have to feel like I need to go, go to the next, the next step. Like I'm on this perpetual stair master. Why don't you just get off the stair master for a bit and like, enjoy and go outside. Right. Um, when's the last time you had a gelato? Oh, no, no, it's not that bad. It's not that bad. No, no, no, no. It was, it was for a long time for many, many, many years. But that mentality, you know, I can go like a week, maybe two of like really like stepping away from specific obligations that I've got during work or whatever path I'm pursuing that time. And then at some point, I got to do something.

That's, okay. So if you follow that thread, it will lead you down a path, you know, like that. It's internal pain that creates the change for people. Yeah. Not external. It's internal pain. And not until we have enough of it, do we actually truly get to the next iteration of who we are.

Right. So you, you talked about your fourth bucket being progression, right? Which is small step iterations. But if we're not careful, we have this operating system of like 4.0, 4.1, 4.12, 4.16, and we never really get the 5.0, right? The 5.0 iteration is really investigating the deep pain and making a commitment, you know, to explore a different path. And I, from, I don't know, for men our age, I'm a bit older than you, it is about intimacy. You know, like that's a tough thing to do. It's, I think, one of the hardest places to go.

That radical vulnerability to be intimate, to explore the depths of our oneself and the companionship of other. And it's amazing. But all that being said is that you'll know when you're ready. And because there'll be enough pain to say, okay, I'm going to try this differently. But it sounds like you also have a model that you watch other people, how they go, and you're able to change before you feel the incredible internal pain. Yeah. I think in, I mean, sometimes feeling the internal pain is sometimes I think necessary. It is for me. Um, Because if I don't taste that pain

and know what it feels like, I don't know what my response is going to be and my relationship with doing that path or that continuous activity, I may continuously keep doing it. It's like the kid. That's right. That's exactly right.

Have you written a letter to your mom? Nope. Have you ever done that? No. I mean, that's something that is like dangerous territory because we have to be so real with ourselves. Yeah.

You know, like when I say dangerous, it's not really dangerous because you could throw it away. You could burn it, you know, but like that would be heavy lifting. Yeah. That could be an exercise of heavy lifting. Absolutely. Yeah. And again, she might not ever see it. It sounds like you don't have any relationship with mom.

I'm pretty driven. I bet I could find out. I bet you could. How come you haven't? That's a really cool thought. So for many years, it was, this will sound strange, it was out of respect for my father to make him feel that he was always enough for me. Beautiful.

And so I did that. And now our relationship is so good where he's seeing me grow as a young man. He's seeing me make mistakes and handle them on my own. And he's still my biggest teammate, my best friend, my father, mentor, all these things. And he still gives me incredible advice in haikus and riddles, the way that he speaks. Never just gives me an answer straight

up. But I think now, as I kind of go through this process with this relationship with my dad and recognizing those are the reasons why I've never done that in the past, I think he also recognizes at some point, and maybe he, my dad is very wise. So it would not surprise me if one day he says, let's talk about your mom. And this is why I didn't want to bring it up before. Because I maybe was not introspective enough. And my curiosities didn't lead down that path. And maybe at some point, he'll recognize that I am growing as a human and it is time for me to really understand what's going on and here is the door. Do you want to open it? Honestly, I think that maybe, and maybe I'm putting that intention out there and that manifesting that, it would not

surprise me if my dad had that plan all along. And at some point he says, hey, I just want to let you know that I know that you've been looking at this door and here's the door handle and it's okay. If you want to go through this door, I don't even have to be there. It's up to you, but here is the door. And it's entirely in your control. If you decide you want to go down this path that there is no, you know, this is not, there's no glass here. You can't see inside. So I don't know. I hope that that's going to be the case. I know internally at some point I will, I don't know if it's when, 37 now, maybe it's when I'm 40, maybe it's 38, maybe it's this year, maybe it's 10 years. At some point, I know that I probably will not feel complete until that avenue is explored.

And I pray and hope that it's not too late because time is always time, right? Yeah. But it's fascinating. A lot of my friends who are in the technology industry or who are in the finance industry, they kind of dedicated their whole life, their whole first half of life, very much like an Olympic athlete, towards one specific task. And they've amassed a great deal of financial wealth. And now the only sole driving factor in them is usually two things, health and wellness. And the second is their mental cognitive health, right? Their traumas, their insecurities, their demons, their fears, all of these things that they never worked on for a long time. And I've seen incredible transformations of these people. And some

of these people are the fundamental reasons why we have some of the technologies that we're playing with today. And now they're at a stage and point in their life where they don't want to do those things anymore and they want to work on the self. And what is the self to them? And so i always found that fascinating and some of them the radical transformation was so large that they're unrecognizable to me of what they were five years ago they are different human beings today it's amazing what we can do yeah humans are amazing and you you don't need a conversation with your mom. You know, it sounds like what you are exploring is like that part of you that you

don't know much about, you know, like you don't need to have a conversation. It sounds like it's part of you as well as like, yeah, but you know, the time, the time bit, like kind of would be nice, you know, like if I had the opportunity, scary too scary yeah right out of here a lot yeah i'm looking at this um this picture as we're shifting gears away from deep fears yeah how my brain goes yeah yeah but i you know a lot of these a lot of pro athletes carry with them in football massive trauma, which is why these guys are so – they're just – they're incredible athletes. But I read a statistic the other day, and correct me if I'm wrong because I'm doing a lot of research on post-career, that like 78% to 84% of all NFL – and this is old data. Maybe this is 2012, right? 78% to 84% of all NFL athletes within three years of retirement are bankrupt, broke, and severely and clinically depressed.

That's three years out of retirement of making astronomical sums of money. And most, that's a huge skewed amount of population, have not been able to figure it out as what a civilian would say like, dude, what do you do after your life as an athlete? Do you go on? What if you don't want to be a commentator? What if you don't want to go on Fox? What if you don't want to be these guys who are personalities now doing very well? And what if you don't have the chops like a Michael Strahan or an Emmett Smith who's gone to have a real estate portfolio? What do the rest do, right? I mean, that's why I'm just looking at that and just curious because we live, Olympic athletes and professional athletes live in wildly different worlds. And so based on your relationship, like what has been, like, I guess my real question is, like those who have figured it out, what are they doing different than those who don't?

Yeah, I love that question. So early data was 87%, and it was within two years. Unbelievable. And that data is now, I'm happy to send some to you. The League has released some stuff to help clarify, because you've got a couple different subgroups that were not accounted for in that early data. One, you've got the guy who's in the league for a year. He makes 450K, 50% is gone after taxes and, and, and agent manage it, whatever. And so $250,000, let's be generous, after one year, and you spent half of it on you know hotels and restaurants and rent and buying something nice for your mom you know like it goes quickly

it sounds crazy it's a lot of money but it goes quickly and then there's another strata who have been in the league for 12 years you know know, and they cracked their third contract for X, X million a year, and they signed their 40, $50 million contracts. How can they be broke? So there's some strata to take a look at, and I'm happy to share it with you, but let's say the 87%, right? Didn't figure it out. I am like you more interested in the 13%. And so what are those 13 percenters do differently? How do they organize their life? Well, they, there's this funny little thing and you're, you're one of the statistics is that somehow you believed that you can do, I'm not saying you're a financial

statistic. I'm saying from an athletic mind that you can do what 7 billion have not been able to do, that you are the outlier. You believe that, that you do special things that you can do what 7 billion have not been able to do, that you are the outlier. You believe that, that you do special things, that you don't fit in the box. You don't have to deal with the same type of rules as many other people because you've always had extraordinary results. So have they. So when you show them data about like, here's the statistics and 99% of them sit back and say, well, 87 to be more exact, sit back and say, I'm not going to be one of them. I don't, I break statistics. What are you talking about? Like I'm record holders, you know, I'm a record holder. So it's that 13% that hear the data and say, oh, that's not going to be me. And I'm going to take action on

it. And here's how I'm going to take action on it. And they start listening to people who have traveled the path, taking the suggestions and strategies that work for them. And it is born a little bit out of fear. Like, I don't want to be one of those that blows it. You know, I've worked too hard. So it's not easy. It's, um, it begins with recognizing the relationship that you have with your future. It's not always guaranteed that you're going to make this kind of money. It's actually guaranteed. You're not going to continue to make this money and your relationship with money. So with your future and with your money are two really important parts of the relationship. It's scary. It is scary.

And we can see that the 87 percenters, we can see them. We know the rookie who comes in with the big chains, he's going to be selling that for, you know, 10 cents on the dollar in X number of months, you know, or years. And they come with the big luggage and the big cars and the vets are looking at them like, I'm going to pick that up for pennies on the dollar's watch. Because they blew their money already. So all of that is like, it's tragic.

And so how do we get that to reverse itself? How do we get 87% are thriving, are giving back to community, are teaching the next generation, are teaching the young Apollo Onos, hey man, these are the things that you're going to be flashed with. And you got to resist your dog temptation to bite at every single flashy thing that comes your way. Okay, so you've been taking a deep dive

in this for a while. This is the essence of the book that you're writing in so many ways. So what are you figuring out? Identify that a lot of it comes from environment and childhood and habituation around your continual environment. So just because you left your environment that maybe was a negative personification of who you are as an identity and what you're responsible for now that you've made

it, being able to detach from that and say that I am my own person, I have my family and core values here. Relationship with money is a huge part of it. And also understanding how to pivot. That you as a football player are not just you always running into other people or catching the ball or throwing it. It's the attributes that make you who you are. They just happen to come with muscles, right? Now those attributes are inside your brain and you have that ability regardless of whether you paid attention in school or not. Your school of life taught you when you commit to something with the same intensity, drive, and focus that you can achieve

at least a fraction of success that you had in sport. For you to be an NFL athlete or for you to be an Olympic athlete, that is such a tiny percentile of the world. Now you're telling me that you can't go be a fraction of that outside of that with the same attributes? So I've had this conversation with myself. I've had it with friends who I've called and said, you're an Olympic gold medalist. You're 10 years retired. You're 15 years retired. Why are you telling me that you're miserable? Why? Why are you doing that job? I know there's some processes that are necessary for you to go through to make sure you can actually stand on your own two feet and you can provide and be a provider for your family. However, you do have

a choice and you do recognize that if you plan accordingly, you can do whatever it takes. So I'm different. This person's different. The guy you know picture is different um i just feel like the things that i've recognized are the ones who've been able to reinvent themselves have a usually usually a natural or a forced curiosity for learning um and they apply the same principles that got them to the nfl or got them to the o or got them to the Olympics in another path and career that has no similarities in physical trait whatsoever, and able to schedule, discipline, sacrifice, enjoy, learn, win, and fail the same way they did in sport but now in business and do so in a way.

And then the third is not having the same expected outcome in the same timeframe. So like in sport, I could create miracles within two and a half weeks of training. I can't create miracles in two and a half weeks in a business. There's not much you could do. Like I need, it just takes time. And I think that's been frustrating for me. And also for others is that they, we've been accustomed and we've got that Pavlovian training ingrained in us that you do this, you'll get this, you do this, you'll get this, you know, it's beautifully said, beautifully said. Do you have a title of the book that you're writing? The working title right now is called Hard Pivot. Because when you skate, I'm going one direction.

And then I have to do a hard pivot and I go the complete opposite direction in like two seconds. And so I just found that, you know, when I retired, I became really fascinated with those who had success outside of sport. So businessmen, leaders, writers, actors, just fascinating with people who've been able to go from one career to the next and those who've been blessed to stay in that career and then having to reinvent themselves within that career. Because there's many stages of reinvention, right? Not just different career path. And then also seeing the next Gen Z and millennial generation and extrapolating data on why are people searching? And when you do these Google searches, right? And you type in, why am I? And this is my friend, Adam Robinson, first turned me on to this. He said, when you type in, why am I?

The search query automation says, why am I so hungry? Why am I so tired? Why do I feel so alone? And then you type in, how can I learn Spanish? How can I dot, dot, dot, it'll say learn Japanese. How can I learn to love myself? I'm like, whoa, that's a lot of people searching in Google for some very introspective conversations that they're not having outside in the real world. They're not having their own forums. They're trying to have them digitally with the internet because they don't feel comfortable talking to you or I or their family members. That's a much larger epidemic, I think, than... And people obviously recognize mental health is a huge, huge focal point and issue in society, not only for athletes and those who face traumatic injuries, but also those who are going through reinvention or don't feel like they belong, don't have community, which is another kind of, that's where my urgency comes from with

the book, although I'm taking my time. The urgency comes from like, I have to get this book out because there's got to be a better toolkit. And I say toolkit, not in terms of recipe, like follow this recipe. It's the only way to make these cookies, right? It's more of here's a booklet of certain types of tools for any one of these different personality types. And maybe you fall in one of these different personality types. And when you feel this, this is what this person did. And here's an example of how they implemented that tool. That's my goal for the book, this hard pivot.

It's a working title. It's not a sentence. No, I love it. And you asked earlier, like how, like how do we move that conversation to help the 87 percenters? It's people like you. It's people like you who have been to the mountaintop and you come back and you say, hey, there's a brokenness to my experience.

I've learned so much, but there are some parts of me that, um, have been compromised and I'm figuring some stuff out and I didn't have it all together. It made me look like it, but I didn't have it all together. And it's, so it's the courageous men and women who have our attention that are going to shift the narrative and I want to support it the best way I can. And so whatever I can do to support you and your narrative and your next mini mission that you're on flat out want to support it. So seriously, like this time that we spent together, I knew it was going to be like this and I'm so happy, you know, happy to connect with you and have these conversations. So yeah. Thanks for

having me on. Yeah. Where can people find you? Where are the, what are those handles? So I'm at Apollo Ono on Twitter. I'm at Apollo Ono on Instagram and Apollo Anton Ono on Facebook. I'm not super active. I try to try to stay up. I'm trying to improve my social kind of output. And I'm playing around with some ideas around creating and curating content specifically about what we talked about.

So we'll be on the lookout for that. Yeah. And hopefully you and I can talk about it and I can help figure out how to amplify that as well. Love your mind on it. Yeah, for sure. And then how do you describe or think about mastery? Like that concept.

When I think of mastery, the first thing that comes to my mind is I smile first emotionally, right? Physically. And then I think of someone who's teaching. I think mastery comes from teaching. So, you know, like in, in, in, I think there's probably science and data that shows that like you can read something over and over and over again, and you get that fluency, right? Repeatedly. But then at some point you don't really understand it until you teach it. And within that teaching, um, you can recognize all these different flaws you have in your

understanding of what that concept was. So mastery to me is a teacher, someone who's actually teaching and is, you know, is hopefully curating the next list of people who want to have some form of mastery. And that can be, I think mastery is a, it's a beautiful word, right? Something that we all search. Mastery of a life, mastery of emotions, mastery of sport, mastery of, you know, I think it's also, it's ongoing.

There's no pinnacle. There's no, you know, we give gold medals, but that's like, that's really just like, okay, like here's a... Just a little bit of feedback. Yeah, here's feedback. You're on the right path. Yeah, it worked out for you. How much is a gold medal worth now in a major sport uh the actual gold medal if i know no no no

the no the like finances behind it yeah the finance behind it oh the finance is behind a gold medal what's changed a lot so now i would argue to say that if you do it right so if you mark let's say let's assuming everything is there. You have the marketing. NBC loves you. You go and win a gold medal in a sport like swimming or gymnastics. And if you have the proper plan in place, I would say on average, an average gold medal could be $2 to $7 million. There you go.

I would say on average. For major sports? For major sports. For major sports. Yeah. Some of the obscure stuff, it's hard. A little more tough. But it depends on your story.

Absolutely. Yeah. I was in speed skating. No one that I know of is a speed skater in the United States if it's not in my crew, like not in my team. I mean, this is an obscure sport that no one has ever heard of. It is possible. Maybe the next time we see someone, it's going to be a gold medalist fencer in the Tokyo 2020 games where we don't even know.

Or badminton, a sport that we think is just played in our backyards, like holding a beer can against someone else. Phenomenal athletes. Incredible. Phenomenal. I got to work with our American team at one point. And early days, people were scoffing at me. Until you go see it live. You're like

whoa that's a serious athlete 200 miles an hour those little shuttles go and it's like how many verts do they get like full-on 41 inch vertical leaps they're freak athletes like freak athletes like bang bang bang it's it's awesome all right apollo thank you thank you thank you thank you for having me on yeah all right thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening.

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