Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Confidence, Anxiety, Resilience and More | AMA Vol. 4 with Dr. Michael Gervais

Episode Date: February 8, 2023

This week, we’re really excited to share another installment of our Ask Me Anything series. In this episode, we cover confidence, anxiety, resilience, self-talk, the art of feedback, and much more.For this AMA, we brought in a friend of Finding Mastery’s to help facilitate the conversation — O'Neil Cespedes. O’Neil is an actor, an improv artist, a former member of the Groundlings Sunday Company, and he's got an epic new podcast called 3 Black Guys on a Couch. O'Neil brings a fresh perspective and a ton of energy to this conversation – we had a blast answering your questions together.I’m super grateful for our community and the opportunity to talk through some of the topics you all are wrestling with. As always, feel free to respond to this email with feedback or any questions you may have for future AMAs. Keep carving your unique path._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. All right, welcome to another Ask Me Anything. I'm Dr. Michael Gervais. By trade and training, a high-performance psychologist and host of the Finding Mastery podcast. For this AMA, a friend of Finding Mastery has dropped by. He's an actor, an improv artist, a former member

of the Groundling Sunday Company, and he's got an epic new podcast called Three Black Eyes on a Couch. O'Neal, Cespedes, welcome to the Mastery Lab. This is going to be great. All right, great.

Dr. Mike, how are you doing today? Great. Awesome, awesome. My man Pedro says, what are the steps to build resilience? Okay. Awesome. Awesome. My man Pedro says, what are the steps to build resilience? Okay. It's a buzzword first. People want resilience. They wanted the ability to,

what most people think is bounce back. Really it's about being able to put your foot in the ground and bounce forward. So resilience is something people want. And the hard part about building resilience is that you have to go through hard times. You have to do difficult things. And so in the current state that we're in right now, when somebody asks that question, the first thing that happens for me is I go, okay, what's really happening? Because we are in hard times. So how are we going to build resilience on top of the stress, the ambiguity, the uncertainty that's taking place right now, which is really hard because it's like piling stress on stress.

So how do you build resilience? Let me be uber clear, is that you need to be able to go through and experience hard things. And there's three very specific ways that we think about it. If you go through a hard experience and you, there are three C's, we'll keep it that way. And you stay committed to your purpose in life. And if you don't have that, you stay committed to see the hard thing through. Okay. The first C is commitment. The second is that you've reframed it like, okay, this is a challenge. This is an

opportunity for me to see what I have, to be able to rise to this challenge because my purpose matters. Okay. So it's commitment challenge. And then the third C is about control, controlling what you can control. So if Pedro, you're, you're going through something tough right now, then, and you anchor to those three C's, you will be in the process of building resiliency because people that go through's, you will be in the process of building resiliency. Because people that go through hard times or they're in the thick of it right now, but don't leverage those three, you just go through a hard time. If you want resilience, purposely design experiences or when you're in experiences,

leverage those three. And here's what I'd add to it. You can build resilience by not just doing the difficult thing that's required of you. You can do it by searching out doing difficult things. What does that mean daily? It means having a hard conversation with someone that you love. It means being honest and truthful. So it doesn't need to be physical. It doesn't need to be technical at work. It can be emotional at home and it requires a bit

of vulnerability. How about it? Okay. That last one seems like, if I'm speaking honestly here, that last one seems like something a lot of us don't want to, I mean, I don't want to have a hard conversation. I don't want to, if I see someone that I owe money or something to, and I see them across the street, I'm crossing the street until I get the money to give it to them, right? So that's not where I went. So to your point, like you don't want to do, like always build on the hard thing, right?

And that's, I relate to that as well. But I'm not thinking about who I'm owing money to. Well, I mean, I don't owe anybody money. I'm just saying. This is an example. That's an example. Pedro, I hope you got something from that. I understood that.

Okay. Don't owe anybody any money. Nico has a long question for you, Dr. Mike. And when I say Nico has a long question for you, it's a long question. All right, let's go. I love your energy and wisdom. I have a question about my son. He's a long question. All right, let's go. I love your energy and wisdom. I have a question about my son. He's 17.

He started playing tennis at eight. He has a dream to play college tennis in USA. During practice, he performs at a very high level, but unfortunately, he can't perform during matches. He's not present. He double faults, and I don't know what that means. He double faults. He pushes the ball rather than hitting it.

He chokes. He feels disgusted with himself himself he wants to quit mid-match but he doesn't want to quit tennis he still wants to chase his dream what do you think is wrong and what can i do to help him jace not only is it long which i love long that's cool um it's set up like when i hear that i get i have a response response which is like well you just called out everything wrong with your kid and okay maybe you were trying to give the symptoms maybe you're trying to identify the things that aren't working but I wonder if that's part of the framing that the way that you see life and or your son and or your son's condition. And so I would start, like if he was in the room with us,

I would say, tell me about his dream. Is he living through you? And then I would go to second point, I would say like, how do you see or think about the mistakes? A double fault is like, he had two errors on the service line, right? So you're supposed to get a ball in, right? And so he makes two errors in a row.

And I would say, are you seeing as an opportunity? Are you feeling what he feels? Are you wanting to help him work from the inside out or are you working simply from the execution that is failing or that is not good enough to whatever standard? So I would talk about the way he's framing those with him. And the third thing that I would be clear about is, if you can do it in practice and can't do it in the games,

that's usually a tip that it's psychological. So you have the physical and technical, but if you don't have the psychological skills and practices in place, pressure exposes that. And so if he can do it in low pressure environments, call it practice, but can't do it in high pressure environments, it's likely psychological skills. So there's an opportunity. So the answer is like there's first some framing. What's his dream? Is he living through you?

Are you living through him? And that's a decoupling between father and son that we'd work on. The second is like the dad's framing, like you're only seeing the negative and it's not ever quite that simple. And then the third is like, okay, what psychological skills are you good at? What are the psychological skills that are required to be great? And then let's just fill in a plan. Do you know how to build confidence on command? Actually, that's a good question for you as a performer. Do you know on command how to build confidence? Through repetition. If I've done it a million times, if I've been there a million times, whether in my head or just practicing in my living room and on stage or

in front of the camera is cake okay so i would call that part of it so that's necessary but not sufficient so the first part so damn i thought i thought i was smooth with that answer too i thought you had that right yeah i was really good my answer yeah that's pretty good so that that is necessary like the preparation is required and i'll share this insight with how I came to understand this, is that best in the world, gold medals around their neck, they're up next for the world championships, let's say. They're just coming off Olympics, on to world championships,

and they go into the arena and they don't have confidence. They're struggling a little bit. They've got some nervousness or some anxiousness. Why? You're the best in the world. Why would that be? So all the body of work is in place. The preparation is on point. The reason, the last piece of it is self-talk. So you need great preparation and then need to have a command of how you speak to yourself about yourself and about the challenge. And if you can own that piece and be great and be disciplined and be awesome there, it's a skill that you can develop. Now you're working from the inside out in a very powerful way.

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Okay, so let me ask that question. Go back to that. A command of how you speak to yourself. So example, and bear with me because I'm trying to grasp what you're saying here. So I'm a chess player and I'm great. I beat all my friends all the time. But when I'm in chess tournaments, I suck.

If I say to myself, hey man, you're a good chess player. You're the best chess player you'll always win you'll do this you'll do that through doing that continuously over and over again you'll begin to experience some change because of i would i would give you a slight twist on that is i would the way that i would like let's say we're coaching i'm coaching on this moment i would say make statements that are always 100% true. So are you going to win? You don't know. So if you say, I'm going to win this thing, it's not bad, but that's not a, it's not great either

because what happens when you get punched in the mouth or you lose your queen or something takes place. I don't know if you're getting punched in the mouth and chest. That's a weird mouth. Yeah. Right. You're very strong human. Yeah. So, so, but as soon as something goes sideways and it, it undoes everything, as soon as there's some errors in place, it quickly can undo that type of thinking. I'm the best. And all of a sudden, like, I can't say that if I'm going to go play hoops against Jordan, I can't say I'm the best. It's not real. It's not grounded in anything, but I can say I'm a scrappy competitor yeah and i'm gonna be in at one one point at a time and i got great feet but i'm not so those are all controllables

i see i see so the self-talk if you can make it real and it's credible yeah and you've got a body work to to that's like right on the surface that's extraordinary that you can rely on yeah and i'll let me let me talk about the body of work and the extraordinary being on the surface, the good stuff on the surface. That is like, when you go back into your history and you think about things that have happened to you, can you put a spin on it and can you rise, have the cream rise to the top? So it's available. The spin is like, yeah, I got my ass handed to me here, but you know what? I'm a great competitor. I figured that out too. And or I got great feet or you know what? I see

the chessboard in a really clear way and I can rely on that no matter what. 3M1LYK Despite a loss. 3Lzb1 PP Despite a loss, despite the queen getting despite you know the reputation of the person across from you yeah okay so you know i i think that identifying the psychological skills that are important and we just hammered confidence and confidence comes from what you say to yourself and you can practice that and that would be a place i would go to you know for this kid i see wow i've never i've never never thought of it like that like things that that are doable right right then and there that are yeah that makes sense and doing it wrong no no you're not you're probably not doing it wrong like look

you're doing pretty good yeah right um but then you can get ahead of it so it doesn't have to be real time confidence building self-talk while you're playing chess or walking to the chess board, it would be the way we do it in sport is we front load it. So we get clear about how you want to speak to yourself. Like, what are the things you say that give you that vibe? Yeah. Right. And then you write that stuff down and then you look at them as like, does that really give me the vibe or is that, yeah, those are all true. Like, yeah, those are believable. And then yeah, those are believable. And then you practice those. And let's talk about the type of self-talk. It needs to be credible.

You have to earn what you're saying to yourself. And so when, when you are doing this inventory about how you want to speak to yourself, if it's not based in something, I mean, we're out in La La land. It's like, it's not real. You know mean we're out in la la land it's like it's not real you know it you can't fake it fake it till you make it is a problem that is not a strategy yeah nobody wants a fake bag fake shoes a fake surgeon doing your surgery like like being authentic is the real deal and so when you say that when you say credible it has to be grounded in reality. That's exactly it. And the reality you and I are talking about is your body of work.

And that's why I was saying, pull it up to the top of your available memory, which is the things that you have done that are hard and real and allow you to say, I'm a great competitor or whatever it might be. Rather than saying the things that you hope to do. Exactly. 100%. Traditionally, and correct me if i'm wrong here but traditionally we've been taught to shoot for the stars you know the what that that whole cliche saying shoot for the stars at

least you'll come down with it the stardust so you know traditionally we say outlandish things like i'm gonna own 10 lofts in dumbo when you don't even can barely put your rent. But people tell you to say that because the power is in the word. So I've never thought of it like that. There's – yes, and. What you're saying is right and there's another part to it because you want to have a great vision, great clarity of where you want to go and the things you want to experience. And you want to have great clarity there. But then where it becomes hardened and catalyzed and real is the way you speak to yourself

based on the things that you've done and the way that you're approaching a situation to say, well, this is part of the plan to get there. And you know what? Again, I'll go back to I'm a great competitor. And sometimes what happens for folks is that they're not clear if they have done hard things. So it's a funny little trick our minds play on us is that sometimes it's hard to recall the adversity. Sometimes it's hard to recall the small things that I've really shaped you.

And so it is nice to take this invisible world of our mind and put it on paper and to write it down. And just taking some time to have a true and honest inventory of the hard things, the things that have helped shaped you to believe that you can do hard things in the future, just write that stuff down. It's amazing how far that goes. Yeah.

All right, Nico, I hope you're happy. You got a nice long answer for your nice long question. All right. Deshant. Here's Deshant with a short one. What does be here now mean for day-to-day life? What do you think it means? Be present.

Be aware. Appreciate what's going on currently. You know, watch the butterfly fly by. Smell the flowers. look at the car appreciate no that's it that's it no no i was no shaking my yeah good call out because i was shaking my head like yeah it's that simple that's what i was like that's it yeah be here right now and that's a skill that you can also develop so it's really easy to be here now in a calm environment, an environment that is slightly stimulating, or it's easy to be here now when the environment is so dangerous that your

life depends on it. But it is hard to be here now in boring environments. It is hard to be here now when there's moderate stress online because it kicks up different parts of our brain and our brain's design is survival and deep focus is part of survival. And when it's, when it's just moderately stressful, you can focus on a lot of different things and not necessarily the unfolding present moment because you have the luxury to think about, well, what might he think of me or she think of me? That's a luxury. That's a modern day luxury right now that many of us face.

The fear of people's opinions is one of the greatest constrictors of human potential. And if we don't counter rotate to train how to be here now, we will fall prey to exactly the brain's dictum is just figure out survival. And one of the great threats are people's opinions of us. So how do you do, how do you practice that? I practice it through mindfulness. That's one of the ways that has helped me tremendously. Yeah. Wow. Could you go back to the first reason you're present besides stress? What was the first reason when you're present? In rather calm environments that are gentle and there's no real threat and they're lovely. And it's easy to focus because it's enticing and you're in a good conversation with somebody.

And it's that feeling like, remember when you talk to somebody and it's like, oh my God, three hours have gone by. Or like, wow, that was 45 minutes? It's that type of thing that it's just, it's lovely. And then the other is real danger. Those are the easy ones to get to. But the boredom and the moderate stress, the pressure environments, those are harder to be present. And there's a second part of this, the be here now. The now part is essential. Then why

now? Because the now is where the present moment lives. And the present moment is the entry point into flow state. It's the entry point into high performance. It's the entry point into wisdom. So the be here right, now is the skill. Can I string together this moment and the next moment and the next moment and literally be on time with the unfolding present moment? That is the skill. And when you can trust yourself so much because you've built a radical body of work, you speak to yourself well, you've got a compelling future you're working towards, When you can trust yourself so much, you can be in this moment.

And then what ends up, again, when you string them together, as you know, it's amazing. But we can practice being here now in a very safe, calm environment. That's where meditation shows up for me, is that sitting on a pillow and when my mind wanders i recognize it i celebrate that i recognized it because that's kind of step one and then i come right back to whatever the task is can i ask you a question um just uh on that taking it step by step being present moment to moment to moment how was that especially in this current environment that we live in now, right? Because we live in an environment now where your senses are being attacked by a million different things. There's social media, there's your phone. I hate to admit this, but I feel like this is a safe environment for me to admit this. I sleep right next to my

cell phone. The cell phone literally has a pillow right next to me. Wait, it's on your bed or it's on the nightstand? I want to lie to you and tell you it's on the nightstand. But man, I'm not going to do that. It's on a bed. Oh my God. Like another person on the pillow. Oh, on the second pillow. On the second pillow.

I'm not lying. And I keep telling myself, get rid of this. Get rid of this. But I wake up every three, four hours and I check my phone. And I'm like, man, I got a problem. And there's so much going on because I literally feel like I'm missing something going on. And my mother is like, hey, sit in a room, meditate, pray, whatever. It's going to make you feel comfortable.

Just get away from all of that. And from time to time I do that. But my question is, how can we be in that present and be moment to moment when our iPhone is literally one of the most important things to us in the universe? Yeah. So, I mean, step one, you know, the first step, get the phone off the call. Yeah. Get the phone off the call. I mean, but you, you bring up a real important question because that iphone represents so much right it's access it's immediate access and then let's just keep in mind that the people that are programming the apps that sit in that hardware are um they have thousands like the big companies have thousands of phd psychologists that know how to manipulate brains yeah and so

you've got yours your your brain, and I have my brain and they have a team of a thousand. They're way ahead. They have figured out how to give us little hits of dopamine, which Allah is like little hits of cocaine. And it's a very addicting substance. And so each time we're flicking, we're getting a little hit of reward. And so there's a cycle in here that feels just like a drug user's cycle. And so they're winning. They are winning the battle, the war, if you will, for attention. And again, if we go back to this thought that the present moment is what allows you to reveal your truest potential, your high performance. It allows you to express the

wisdom that you hold within. And if you're pulled out by what is happening maybe later on the phone or you're scrolling on something that's rewarding you for not being fully present with the thing that matters most, it's a compromise. And so I don't know. I think the cheeky answer is literally put your cell phone away. And within, I don't know i think we just it's the the cheeky answer is like literally put your cell phone away and within i don't know i'll call it out like within 10 days you'll be cool you'll be fine you'll detox a little bit you know i was talking to a friend of mine the other day and i was like man do you ever feel like because of phones and texting that you know you're in demand and when people for some i'm not very skilled with the iPhone.

So I always, I turned on that thing that lets people know that I read their messages. And so I'll read messages and I'll just be like, okay, I'll respond later. And I've gotten negative responses. Like, I know you saw my message because it said red. And I'm like, yo, this is crazy. So it's trained me to respond to everything. So that and also fear that I'm missing something because I get all my information and news from the phone. So whether it's something terrible that's going on in India or an earthquake here or something, I want to know. It's like I'm a fiend for it. I want to know what tragedy or good thing is going on. And also, I don't want anybody to feel like I'm ignoring them. Yeah. I think you're, you're sitting right

on the essence of like a general pervasive anxiousness about, you know, something out there is going to make me inside be okay. And that, that, that is a very, I, I know that feeling. That's hard. That's a tough way to go through. And especially on top of it, if sleep is compromised, because sleep is the number one investment back into your energy system. It's the big one. And if you're, if you're compromising sleep or you're waking up, I mean, let's say you say, let's say you don't want to get the phone out of the bed. Like you have a good relationship with your phone. I would say it's unhealthy at this point. Right. But let's say you don't want to do that. Then, then when, when you wake up,

which waking up happens throughout the night, having a strategy to go back to sleep rather than reaching for the little dopamine, the little hit of dopamine. And once you get that little hit of dopamine, there's an on that starts taking place. And so it's really hard. Plus you've got the light and the blue light and all of the other stimulants that are taking place in the content of the things that you're looking at. What's happening globally, there's stimulation there. So I would just, I'd go on a run. I'd go on a detox. And then, and let me finish my point. If you say, no, I'm not getting the phone out. It's that's way too, whatever for me, then I would be radically disciplined. It's like you're have your cocaine dealer right next to you, but you're like, no,

no, no, I'm going back to sleep. I mean, I couldn't do that. I need to, I would need to have the dealer outside the house, outside the room, and then not try to think that I could face him down every time or her down every time that I see her. So I don't know. I think you're up against it, and I appreciate you brought that up. See, Deshaun, you made me reveal something about myself. Hope you're not like me.

Yeah, what do you got? All right, so Gwen says, how do you help an athlete or anyone for that matter who's trying to come back from a poor performance okay it's a good question because i don't have enough information to know how to answer that you know what does poor performance mean it's contextual and i tend to my first response there is I tend to use performance or information as that, as, okay, this is, this is information that's going to help me grow. And so I don't get caught in like good and bad. That dichotomy is actually problematic. There's a value attached to it. So poor is like bad, right?

And I get, I get the, I get the casualness of like, that was not good or that was a poor performance. But if we can be great researchers and we can research and use the information that's coming in about how we can grow and get better. Now we're constantly on our front foot and we're not letting the, I don't know, the, um, the social part of a poor performance getting in the way, the emotional part of a poor performance getting in the way. I'm not saying you don't feel it, definitely feel it, but use your, use your experience as a tuning fork and as a guide for how to grow. And so let's say that it's Gwen, right? Let's say Gwen was with us. I just say, I would first, I'd say, listen, not everything's going to be in your language. Good. Like you've got to take some time to say, I'm a learner.

And how do I learn from this to keep going forward? How would you guide her? I mean, you know, traditionally the, I tell her to have a short memory. You just have to train yourself to have a short memory and believe that you're here for a reason. First and foremost, you're part of a small percentage of people that are performing at this level, right? Because there's a lot of people that want to be great athletes. So you've already beat 90% of the people if you're performing on a collegiate or a professional level. So boom, you're already, you already deserve your place. You've earned it, right? So now that you've earned this place and you know that you should be here, you just got to have a short memory, you know, because I think-

I love that. I love that. You know what I love that you just did is that it's so reaffirming when you see right into the person and you remind them that they've done hard things, that they've been successful in their past and it is inside of them. I love that. I love that where you naturally went. That's really cool. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. You think I got a future? Well, to be determined. Gotta get rid of my phone first. Yeah, right. To change your relationship with your phone first. I don't know if I can do that, Dr. Mike. I love my phone.

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Oh, Dave Goggins. Dave Goggins. I love Dave Goggins. He talks about the idea of the 40% rule, where he suggests that when your mind tells you that you're done, you're only 40% done. How does that line up with your experience working with high performers? Pretty good. Yeah, I think that that's, I think that insight, there's some, there was some research some research around and I don't I'm not completely current with it right now. But the central governor as a concept. And so the central governor was this physiological way to understand capacity. that says when you to to prevent us from exploding to prevent us from overheating from too much

strain to prevent us from blowing out our system okay there's lots of ways you can think about it but there's this governor that says oh no no you can't go further because we need to we need to take care of ourselves and so the central governor is a limiter and lactic acid is one example of part of that process. So when you reach that threshold where the governor is saying, this is where you need to stop, he's suggesting that you can change that relationship by knowing that you've got more in the tank. Your brain is telling you, you've reached a threshold for survival that I want to make sure

you don't go further because I don't know what the future is. So I need to hold on to the resources that are in the, in, in the backlog. And so that 40% is interesting. I don't know if we can exactly say that, but it's clever. Yeah. And it gives you this idea that there is more room to go. And for 99.9% of world yeah yeah that's a good strategy i'm sorry no i was gonna say i think the central governor is not tested for most people unless you have folks that are in the ultra space or the marathon space that understand what it's like to have one one cyclist explained it to me this way. He said, you know, for me to be great at my sport, he's an Olympian, he says, it feels like there's a toaster oven in my chest for hours at a time.

That's how hot it is for him. That's how uncomfortable he is for an extended period of time. Most people, I don't know what that feels like. So he's pushed his central governor and created real adaptations. And it's not like it just goes away. So that 40%, it's clever. I don't know. I can't point to the exact science of that, but I think it's really clever. Yeah. That's interesting. You say that, or this question is even was posed because like I was saying earlier, I'm trying to train for this 5k and

drop my time down and austin was telling me one day he was like hey you just have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable right and i thought about that whole 40 rule and the way you just so eloquently put it about this governor that's worried about you and telling you hey you know i don't know how much you have left, so you're basically saying is sometimes you can ignore that and go a little beyond it, right? But it's there for a purpose. It's there for a reason to, you know, keep you safe. It's like your big brother looking out for you. That's exactly what it is. But you can ignore your big brother sometimes and go a little further and dibble and dabble in that incrementally. You nailed it. And I wouldn't ignore the governor i would have a

relationship with it you know it's like okay there it is i see you and um you know and i'm i'm gonna just kind of keep going through here and let's so i would have a relationship with it rather than like ignore it or say some sort of um dismissiveness i would use it as information and but but it doesn't have to be the loudest voice. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. All right, Chuck, don't ignore your big brother.

You know what I'm saying? Listen to your big brother. All right, Sam, I'm curious to what extent do people have both an ability and responsibility to help others, especially, I like this one, especially family cultivate their own inner lives. Any thoughts on that? Yeah, I think like the most dangerous person on the planet, and I'm being cheeky here, is a second year undergraduate psychology student or third year undergraduate psychology student, because there's this beginnings of information that is really powerful and wonderful. But the person doesn't have like command of, of the science of psychology or the field. And so they come home and they're like, Hey, you know, I just learned that you

should be doing this or doing that. Or like, why are you doing it? And it's like a little bit of information can be dangerous. And then who, who, who do you think you are? That's where I go to that question. So this is me being a little counterculture and like, I don't, I don't like someone giving me advice. You say, what do you mean? I want to be in a partnership with somebody when we're trying to sort something out, but I don't like when someone flies over top of me and is like, Hey, you should do this. Yeah. And then, so I'm, I'm responding to the question in like, what is our, I think the keyword was responsibility. So the responsibility is for you to be able to take care of yourself in an

incredible way where you can be fully present. So you can be in the presence of somebody else's maybe suffering or pain or excitement or challenge. So your responsibility is for you to be great so that you can be there for other people. And so that's how I think about it. It's like you are the pebble in the pond. And if you want to create great ripples, be a heavy pebble, like build something internally so that you can be there and create waves in the places you go. So I don't think it's a responsibility to take care of other people that to me, I get, I grew up in I grew up in a family where there was plenty of codependency and there was plenty of challenges that we had as a family. And the codependent nature of things in a relationship is my happiness depends on you being okay. And so I've over-rotated away from that to be,

I could slip into that really quickly, especially in my line of work. So what I do is I say, no, my job is so for me to be in any situation, any room, any environment, to be grounded, to be present, to be authentic. So do you, do you feel like family members and friends come to you a lot since in your line of work because of what you do because you're so good at it people come to you and they're like you know hey man man i just you know i got got this thing going on and i just want to do this and that are you very careful of of giving them that advice in a technical manner do you yeah i love the question because yeah i don't i want to i want to have relationships with people in the way that i also want to be treated and i again like to the I don't, I want to, I want to have relationships with people in the way that I also want to be treated. And I, again, like to the, or I don't like when someone comes hip checking in and like, Hey man, why didn't you, or you should, or like, Whoa, hold on. Like you

don't, you haven't lived in my shoes and I haven't lived in your shoes. And my, my life experience is complicated and I bet yours is too. And so how, how can I partner up to understand, but people come to me and they have a, they have this idea that somebody outside of them might be able to help them. And then what I do is I hold the mirror up and say, no, no, no, everything you need is already inside you. Let's clear away. Let's get to that clarity. You've already solved hard things. You've already done, you know, real challenge in your life. How have you successfully navigated those times? Let's rely on that internal wisdom that you already have.

So Aaron asks, when experiencing jealousy or envy in relationships, what tools can you use to temper the intensity of the emotion? Cool question. Those are, let's do emotions for just a minute. Let's do a quick little hit on emotions and principles for that matter. So emotions and core principles that we have are a bit like seeds. And we all have all of the seeds available to us. You and I both have the seeds of jealousy and anger and love and compassion. And we have all the seeds. We have all of the core material for that. And so what we think about is like watering that seed. What we attend to in

our mind and in our behaviors is watering that seed. Some of these seeds turn into weeds and they just really start to take over. Jealousy is one of those. It is a bit more like a weed. And if you want to change your relationship with the way that somebody else is experiencing something amazing in their life, meaning jealous, or what was the other characteristic? Jealousy was one of them. Was it jealousy? Envy, yes.

Yeah, okay. The first thing is recognize how it works. When you think about these things, they're growing, okay? So when you're thinking about the success of somebody else or something that's amazing that's happened to another person, and you notice that your response is of jealousy, what you do in the moment is you label it. So you recognize that you're feeling jealous. And you say, okay, this is jealousy.

And then just labeling it is part of the diffusion. We know that from neurobiology. When you can identify an emotion, you start to dissipate the intensity of that emotion. That's a cool first step. The second step is to say, where is it in me? Physically, do I feel it in my stomach? Do I feel it in my jaw? Do my hands tighten up? Do I get clammy? So physically what happens? And then you can watch that experience. And just watching it also dissipates it.

So there's two levers there, okay? Naming it and then watching it. The naming is, and watching is, there's a requirement though that you're aware. So those are the three elements, awareness, naming, and watching. Okay. So how do you practice awareness? Meditation, mindfulness, journaling, or conversations with people of wisdom. That's how you practice becoming more aware. And then when you're in the throes of it, those are the two strategies, naming and watching. And if you want to water another seed, that is how I would hope that I could help you train to be able to water the seed of compassion, to water the seed of hope and joy and excitement. So how do you water those seeds? Let's say on Friday, somebody

shares with you that they got a new car and your response is something about jealousy. That on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, even Friday morning, I would be training compassion or joy or whatever. And then you're more likely to have that experience rather than the jealousy. So there's a training mechanism to it. There's an awareness mechanism that I just talked about. And there's an actual strategy to deal with it in the moment. And then most things come down to those three levers to get better at the psychology or the emotional part of the game. Krista asks, I'm always curious,

when is the optimal time for coaches to give an athlete feedback? Straight after training or competing doesn't seem like the right time, even though that's what's been ingrained in me, I'd love some concrete backing for what intuitively feels wrong. That's cool. So embedded in that question is a second question, which is really about the relationship that the coach has with the athlete. And so figuring out how the athlete wants the

information is part of it. And do you have the right relationship to provide the information? So let's assume that that has already been established. It's a great relationship between the two. And the coach has an understanding of how the athlete likes feedback. Okay. So that's part one. You got to do that work.

The second part is there's three bands for what I would call high performance feedback. Okay. So, so in environments of speed and accuracy, feedback is a great gift, but it can also create a distraction. So there's three like bands of it. The first band is immediate. So it's like, say I do something and you're helping me work on something. Okay.

Whatever it might be. It could be a little tick I have or a disfluency I have when I speak and I say, um, or, uh, or some, some sort of disfluency. And then I say it right now. And then you go, well, Mike, that's it. You just did it. Hold on. Come on, let's go.

And you bringing awareness to me, that could be, if you give me something to focus on instead, that could be helpful, but you've just disturbed the flow of something. So real-time feedback is considered a gold standard, but there's a cost to it. So the second band, just to give context is within one or two hours. So let's go gold, silver, and bronze, right? So silver is within one or two hours. So that's like right, silver, and bronze, right? So silver is within one or two hours. So that's like right after practice, if you will. And so within a glow of one or two hours. And so that is like using some sort of mechanism post-practice within that glow, using film or some other modality, including conversation to say, hey, there's a few things

I want to focus on. And typically in that experience, we would highlight the things that went well, and we would get to great clarity, the things that we're working on that we've agreed to improve. So you, it's not like this soft thing that you've got to give somebody, hold them with white gloves and like, or kid gloves. Is that the statement? Like that, that, you know, you got to give them the positive before the negative. That's not what I'm saying is you identify what's good because we want to build that that mechanism of confidence like this works this works this works and here's a way we can get better and then the third band is uh within 12 to 24 hours and you lose a lot of potency when you give that much time between feedback so it's just understanding the cost, delayed feedback. You lose some of the potency

because the neurological system is not firing. You're not fully immersed in the experience real time. The cost of real time is you disrupt the flow of what's taking place. And then I'll end it on this is that, um, coach Carol, uh, at the Seattle Seahawks would not disrupt practice because the culture, the vibe, the energy was really important. And the mechanism of being able to make a mistake and figuring out and moving on was a capability we wanted the athletes to develop. So he would not stop a practice, even though, let's say, a quarterback or a linebacker or whoever was making the same mistake three times in a row. And everybody knows that that mistake happened again, again, and again, the practice would still go on. And then the coaching would happen right afterwards. And it's because the, the momentum and the energy was a capability that we wanted to make sure it

was crystal clear and great. And it gives an opportunity for the athlete to try to sort it out. People that want to be great, they know when they make mistakes. They know exactly what they did wrong. Oftentimes, I feel like we don't need to pile on in any kind of way. The feedback that I like in the immediacy is a nod. Okay. So would you say that that's the best one? The immediacy. Yeah. That is, yeah. But again, it's got to be, the relationship's got to be intact first. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day.

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It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash findingmastery. What about like coaches who don't have that relationship with you and they're just, for lack of a better word, a hard case, right? Who they've found success in delivering in any way, any form, at any time, whether it's immediately disrupting the flow, that perfect middle ground like Coach Carroll does,

or telling you like a week later, like, hey, man, I just want to let you know that you ran that route terribly last week, doing it again. You know what I mean? What about, would you say that there is a place for people like that? Because I've seen, I've been coached by people like that

where I'm like, man, you're terrible. But it works. The yelling, the screaming, the cursing, the telling you that you're not worth anything, which we don't want to admit those things happen. Who does that work for? I don't want to put them out there like that. But I've seen it. I was, ironically enough, I was on my way over here and I was looking at my phone. I shouldn't be driving.

This is a bad theme right now, man. I'm not as bad as I sound, people. Someone sent me an IG. No, it was a Little League coach, and he was talking to the kids. And, man, it was, God forgive me for laughing, it was hilarious. It was being passed around as an IG story, but it was funny because he was running out to the kids and it was different kids on his team. And he was like, which bus are you riding, the short bus or the long bus? And everything he was saying was extremely inappropriate, but the kids were laughing.

He was laughing and his delivery made it so amazing that I was questioning it. I was like, how is he able to deliver all these extremely offensive things to these little league kids? Can you pull it up right now? Yeah, yeah. Here you go. I know you're only 12, but the high school coach just texted me and you're cut. I want to put this lightly, but I mean, we're getting killed out there. And I think it's pretty much all your fault. Well, you win some and you lose some unless you're on the mound we lose them all i know you're new to our team but do you always suck this bad or is it just a special occasion today well that

sucked with capital s and a lot of use okay so. So obviously this, you're right. A hundred percent inappropriate, you know? And however, I don't know what, I don't know either of these folks, but it looks like whether it's staged or not, it looks like this is this guy's personality and these kids probably love him. Right. And I just listened to a handful of them, but he doesn't, he doesn't, it's weird when I watch this, I don't go, oh my God, he is crushing these kids. That's how I felt.

Yeah. Right. To your point. Yeah. There's, there's almost like humor, a reality and an uplifting kind of silliness. But I wonder what happens when the camera, when the edits off. Yeah. What's happening in other places, which is like, you guys are amazing.

I love you guys. And like, look, I'm just going to just poke some fun at some stuff. And I don't know, I don't know what else the context of this is, but yeah. Yeah. But to your point about like, how does this work? Is that the, the old way of thinking about helping somebody get better is that it's that person is only an executor they are only an operator they are only an athlete that is so old we are so much more than just the thing we do

and the coaches that are stuck in the old way i don't know i don't know what to say like that's not holding up anymore yeah modern athletes are like no I'm way more than an athlete. Do not think that I'm just this physical form. That's a fact. How about it? Right. And so there's a higher dignity that's required to coach the modern human, whether that's in business or in sport. And so if you don't have a high regard and a dignity for the other person, I don't think there's a place in modern human potential for you. And so it can work because fear is a tactic. It works. It changes people's physiology. It changes their psychology. They'll imprint on you in some kind of way. They'll be fearful of you. They'll work harder.

And when they're done with you, they feel that as a human experience, they don't leave better. They leave scared and anxious and angry and critical and fill in the blanks. So I think that there's a place for coaches to, to be honest with themselves. Like, are they coming from an anxious place? If they're coming, you give what you have. If you have anxiety, you give it. If you have frustration, you give it. And so there's a place for coaches to do some work. like, where am I coming from? And if you want to come, most coaches want to come from the right place. I love the coaching profession.

They've invested their life to help somebody else be better. And the great coaches, if you do this exercise above the line or below the line, and you just draw a piece of line on your piece of paper, draw a line on a piece of paper. And the coaches that you put above the line, usually those are the coaches that you would say, what made them above the line? Oh, those are the coaches that saw me. They got me. They gave themselves to help me. And the below the line coaches, usually it's the coaches that were in it for themselves. Right. And they, they left a stain on my spirit. And so that's a cool little exercise. And I think, I don't know. I just think that's the insight there is really important and that's for athletes, but this also works for anyone in your life. That's mentors, that's business leaders,

that's managers, it's friendships, that's emotional experiences or emotional relationships that you have with your spouse or otherwise. That model works for, I think, every relationship and every position that you have in somebody else's life. Woody says, I've heard you say through relationships, we become. What does that mean? Cool. What's up, Woody? Through relationships, we become. I say that a lot. And it's meant to be a little open-ended because it's through the relationship with yourself,

with others, with Mother Nature, with experience itself. It's through relationships, and in your case, with your phone. Should have never told you about that dr mike i'll never share anything with you it's through relationships that would become the person that we're either hoping to become or that the environment is conditioning us to become so the relationship is at the center and if we're not attending to the relationship, and I would say first and foremost with yourself, if you're not attending to that relationship or whatever the relationship that you do have with yourself, you are becoming more of that person. Through

relationships, we become. We are an unfolding experience that is human. And so we are becoming something or someone. And so the relationships sit right at the center of it. And what I love about that insight is that we can do something about it. You can enhance and build your relationship and you can be really clear about who you are working on becoming. There's a really compelling bit of research that's coming out of Harvard on happiness. And the insight is that relationships are medicine. Relationships are foundational for wellbeing. And, you know, there's, there's only a handful of things that, that we can point to and relationships are one of them. Okay. So you, you, you mentioned, uh, through nature, right? Explain to me what you mean by that.

Do you believe that we depend on some sort of connection through nature along with other things to be? Yeah. I mean, it's a complicated ecosystem. So on one level, very concretely, we are nature. So nature is not the pond or the tree or the ocean or the forest. We are nature. And so honoring that we are this ecosystem, this amazing ecosystem that's happening inside of each of us right now and the ecosystem between the two of us right now and the ecosystem that how we're connected to mother nature.

All of that is really beyond an easy comprehension for sure. And to be attuned to it is really important. That's wild because I'm going to be 100% real with you. When I think nature, I've never, ever in my life thought me, you, us. I've always thought the birds, flower, air, the pond, the grass. And it seems like that's the, and i would argue that a lot of other people think that as well not realizing that yeah you're right we are nature you are nature i am nature human nature is what we're talking about and it is it's a weird separation that we've grown up

with that and when you talk to people that spend a lot of time in nature they're like you know they they have that understanding that they're part of the ecosystem. They're not dominating the ecosystem. And when we have right angles, concrete walls, we forget there are no right angles in nature. And so humans make right angles and we, you know, we create institutions that are in many cases, an assault on nature, their assault on humans, you know, fluorescent lights sitting all day cases an assault on nature. They're assault on humans. You know, fluorescent lights sitting all day is an assault on the nature of being human. And we could take it from whatever the institution is.

It's an assault to land and assault to humans in many respects. So being attuned to nature is a really powerful thing. But if your relationship with your phone is more important than your relationship with cheap oh well i was wondering when i was gonna pop up so cheap i'm gonna use that i thank you dr mike i'm actually saying to one of my friends like hey man this is an assault on me being nature bro you want to restate that to me you know let me try it i want to just pull out this um this way that it. Oh, you need your phone, huh?

I knew it. Yeah, I want to get... Knew you were like me. I thought about this. Yeah. So when it comes to living a high-performance life, yes, sleep, yes, nutrition, yes, psychological skills, and you know what's a big one that gets left out? Relationships.

Real ones. Durable. Weather-tested. Where you've got their back and they've got yours. Those are the types of relationships I want to have and building that capacity to be present for other people and for them to be present to have my back. That's where I want to be. Well, to add and to ask, for myself, I'm using myself for an example. I've created, and I like to say this with people that I have these issues with,

I've created, for lack of a better word, a protector for myself that I put in my pocket from all the struggles of life and things that I've gone through, you know, and I always tell people I feel like I'm very nice. I'm super nice. So because I'm so nice and I'm very inviting and I have this happy-go-lucky smile on my face, people tend to want to, you know, take advantage or go a little further. So over the years, to protect myself, I've created an alter ego or a more aggressive, bullyish person that I keep in my pocket. And the running joke that I always tell people is I'm an alpha male wrapped in a beta package, right? So I want to sit at the table and be a beta. Everyone can talk. Everyone can do their thing. Just don't cross me. I'll let you get away with anything. I'll let you do things, but just don't really

think you can take advantage of me because if you do try to do that, I'm going to pull the other me out of my pocket and let him sit and handle that business. And for the longest, for all these years, I thought that was a great thing until I started going to therapy and I was told that this was this twisted coping mechanism that I had to protect the quote unquote little boy in me that's afraid to be hurt and afraid to be taken advantage of.

So Dr. Mike, I just want you to tell me that I'm right. Yeah, well, you know, I love that. I'm right, right, Dr. Mike? I'm right, to tell me that I'm right. Yeah, well, you know, I love that. I'm right, right, Dr. Mike? I'm right, right? What am I supposed to do with this right now? Who's coming out? Is the pocket one coming out? No, this is the regular me, but I'm just saying.

No, I think I was loving your strategy as you were talking, like, that's dope. And I was curious about where it came from and you answered it, like there was something young, you know, that you needed that part. But I'm recognizing the downside of that might be that you scare people. There's a hidden shadow part of you that is dangerous, that's a little scary. And so that might keep people away.

And so it's a mechanism to not have somebody come too far in. There's a cost to intimacy. There's a cost to that. Because when you say that, listen, I'm friendly, but I might cut you. I'm friendly. But if you get too close or betray me, it could be really bad for you. And so that there's a cost to that, your protection. And what ends up happening is that they don't fully come in because they don't know.

But I don't know. I like the strategy strategy i think it's serving a purpose for you i wouldn't suggest put it away but if it's causing some sort of distress yeah in intimacy likely is that the thank you dr mike for all you people i thought i was wrong dr mike said i was right i'm supposed to be like this oh god where is this is this going to go? Yeah, goodness. All right, I appreciate you. Appreciate you as well. Thank you for having me on. Yeah, great.

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