Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Courage, Risk, and Creative Expression | BASE Jumper, Chris McNamara

Episode Date: February 12, 2020

This week’s conversation is with Chris McNamara, a Big Wall Climber and ex-wingsuit BASE jumper.He is also the founder of OutdoorGearLab, one of the most popular outdoor gear review sites in the world.Outside Magazine has called Chris one of the world's finest climbers.Climbing Magazine once computed that three percent of Chris's life on earth had been spent on the face of El Capitan, an accomplishment that left friends and family pondering Chris's sanity.He has climbed El Capitan more than 80 times and holds nine big wall speed climbing records.Chris has also authored five guidebooks to rock climbing in Yosemite National Park and eight other climbing guidebooks.As a wingsuit BASE jumper, he claimed a slice of the "Golden Age of Wingsuit BASE first descents" by finding and jumping 10-plus significant new exits in the United States and Baffin Island.This conversation is about meaning, it’s about creative expression, it’s about risk._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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cliff, opening a parachute. And it was both kind of the most terrifying experience I'd ever seen but also one of the more inspiring like wow you know human flight is something that I think people have been thinking about forever and I just kind of witnessed it I just got a little glimpse of it like I'm probably never gonna do that but man that's got to be one of the coolest things ever. Okay. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm Michael Gervais and by trade and training, I'm a sports psychologist and the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations is to sit down with people who are pushing into the edges of their capacity

and at the same time, potentially changing the way we understand how their industry works or the world works. And certainly what we're working to understand is if they can do that, push into their potential, how can the rest of us also do the same? What are the practices? What are the approaches? What are the principles? What are the strategies that they use? And when we dig underneath the surface,

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Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash findingmastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash findingmastery. Okay. Protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash Finding Mastery. Okay, this week's conversation is with Chris McNamara, a big wall climber and an X-wing suit-based jumper. He is also the founder of Outdoor Gear Lab, one of the most popular outdoor gear review sites in the world. Outside Magazine has called Chris one of the world's finest climbers. And so how about this? Climbing Magazine once computed that 3% of Chris's life on earth has been spent on the face

of El Capitan. It's an accomplishment that left his friends and his family, according to Chris, pondering his sanity. I mean, El Cap is a legit wall. If you haven't seen it, go check out what that looks like. It's famed right now for Alex and Old scaling it without assist, without any ropes or any assistance. But when you look at that wall and Chris spent so much time on it, you'll get a sense of why he's so skilled. I mean, you've got to put time in, right? To be able to do well in consequential environments, but to do well in life, it requires a disciplined approach that we know. And so he's climbed El Cap more than 80 times and holds nine big wall speed climbing records. So Chris has also authored five guidebooks to rock climbing in Yosemite National Park and eight other climbing guidebooks. And then as a base jumper, like if you're not familiar with base jumping, it's really dangerous. And he was one of the first in, and he claimed a slice of that golden age of wingsuit base jumping, like first descent stuff where people hadn't done the jump before.

And he's got 10 plus significant new exits in the United States and on Baffin Island. And so this conversation, it's not about the technical aspects of climbing. It's not about face jumping and the thrill and all that stuff. That's not what this is. This conversation is about something that most of us are hungry for, and that's meaning. It's about creative expression, and it's about the gap between security and not knowing where risk lives. And so it's about meaning and expression and risk. And then if we double click under risk, what is it that you're trying to risk? What are the things that are risky for you? It's a really important part of your narrative, your framework is, you know, risk is that thing that you're not sure exactly how

it's going to work out. And if it goes well, it could be amazing. But if it doesn't go well, it's got some consequence. And for most people, it's like financial, it's emotional, sometimes it's physical. But what is the thing that you're really working on risking and then can you build the psychological and emotional skills to be able to navigate that space when you bump up against it and if you're not sure what you're risking you know maybe there's some work to do because we're all risking something it shows up in social events it shows up you know when we're making decisions and micro decisions about business and family and and and, and, and.

So there's lots of risk in life. And that's what the essence of this conversation is really about. So with that, let's jump into this week's conversation with Chris McNamara. Chris, how are you? I'm doing great. I actually listened to your podcast about sleep with Matthew Walker. And since I have a one month old, it's been coming in very handy and keeping me relatively awake. You know, like the joke with kids is that, you know, for like the first three years, sleep is just a mess, right? Like it's absolutely trashy because of their cycle, your cycle,

the whole thing. And I don't know about you, but when I listen to sleep experts like Matthew Walker, Dr. Walker, I get fired up like, yes, yes, yes. Oh, I need to make those changes and tweaks. And then at the other side, I'm like, man, can I really do all that? You know, can I really? And I don't know about you, but I'm competing my ass off to get my eight hours of sleep in a night. I am, but I really liked that part where he was talking about the chest thumping and that, you know, the, I can sleep so much less than everyone else. And now I feel like he's given me the, uh, the scientific air cover to just totally throw that out the window and say, you know, a lot of the highest performers are recognizing how important it is.

And so it's been, uh, it's been really cool to explore that. And I got introduced through you. So thank you. Yeah, that's what's up. Okay, good. So let's start with a top line. I'll start with my top line, the reason I wanted to meet you. One, Corey Rich was on the podcast.

He says like right out the gate, he's like, hey, do you and Chris know each other? I said, no. He goes, I, do you and Chris know each other? I said, no. He goes, I think you'd really enjoy knowing each other. So then I didn't know of your work and what you're doing. And then I took a look and I was like, oh, I see what Corey's talking about. And so you built a real business. You've got a history in consequential environments, both base jumping and climbing. And I want to learn from you if this is cool like one the

frameworks that you use to build the business the insights that you have from consequential environments and how eventually how that applies for all of us right that when i say consequential environments i'm talking about environments when you make a mistake you you or loved ones could lose life or limb and while physical consequences aren't an everyday experience for most people, emotional and financial and psychological consequence, meaning identity and ego, are at play a lot. So that's kind of what I wanted to do with you, right? Is like, what have you learned? What are some insights from the world that you operate in?

And then how do you translate that into business all along? Kind of keeping it, you know, maybe only 1% of our community actually base jumps, maybe. Yeah. That's probably a good thing. Yeah. All right. Let's start with that thought. Like, how'd you get into base jumping? Well, so base jumping came because I spent more or less a decade on the side of l cap where base jumpers are going over you all the time and it's actually this perspective that very few base jumpers get because usually you're flying and there's no way that someone's going to fly by you 10 feet away but on l cap it happened all happened all the time. And I told myself that's

something that I'm never going to do. It's way too dangerous. But then I just kind of got that opportunity to do it. Jumped off a tower in the middle of the night. And kind of thought like, well, that was fun. That was worth doing once. Never going to do that again. Whoa, okay. Hold on. Hold on. First of all, a tower is not El Cap. A tower is like a building with a thing on it that you jump from that. But right. Oh, we're talking about the same language. Yeah. It was, it was a, um, a power tower. So in the Sacramento Delta to have the power lines span the giant kind of waterways, they build these 500 foot towers that are, um, literally charged with electricity. And so you're climbing up them in the middle of night and then you can jump off and it's all illegal so you have to do in the middle of night but and that that's that's the type of thing

that'll how a lot of people get into the sport is those kind of 500 foot tall type things and so this which is ridiculously dangerous but here's the thing that I want to sort out is you had a fundamental belief. I'll never do that. That's too dangerous. And then all of a sudden you, you skip over like, and there I am climbing up a 500 foot tower that's electrified and I'm about

to put my life in my right or left hand, you know, like, yeah, you know, which hand are you just for an image, right? Right handed.

So you, you hold your, uh, you're shooting, which hand are you just for an image, right? Right handed. So you, you hold your, uh, your shoot in your right hand when you jump. Yeah. For something that short you do. Yeah. Okay. So, um, tell me about the change. I'll never do that. That's too dangerous to completely putting your life in your own hand. I mean, it kind of just comes down to people. Um, I met someone who was just so confident that this would all work out and had done it with other people that I was swayed. Okay. Up until that moment, I hadn't met anyone who had said, oh, you have zero skydives. You're totally qualified. But, but came across that person. And what did you look at? If you go back to the first time you saw physically saw a jumper, did you have two experiences? One,

one being, Oh, that is amazing. And, and then it led to a second and I don't want. And I don't want to lead you down a path, but I've got a construct that I think might be a play. But walk me through what your first experience, initial gut thought pattern was. Well, the first thing is it's the most terrifying thing in the world. And that I experienced when that first body came by us on the side of El Cap. So El Cap's 3000 feet tall, we're halfway up. And you hear this really loud noise. And anyone who's skydiver seen a base jumper knows that there's no kind of wishing sound. It's more like the air being ripped in half. It's a really violent, loud noise. So we were pretty certain a

rock was about to kill us and just, you know, clean us off the wall like this was it. But looked up and you see this perfectly composed body falling, you know, flat, going right by you and then flying away from the cliff, opening a parachute. And it was both kind of the most terrifying experience I'd ever seen, but also one of the more inspiring like wow um you know human flight is something that i think people have been thinking about forever and i just kind of witnessed it i just got a little glimpse of it like i'm probably never going to do that but man that's got to be one of the coolest things ever okay what year are we talking i think that was 99 okay and so you watched this thing that was beautiful and scary and you said i would like if there was something in there that said i i'd like to do that that's amazing i'm fascinated by it but i i'm too

rational i'm too reasonable i'm i should i would be stupid to do that. I'm trying to sort out the conflict or not. Maybe it was flat out, like you said, no way. But then to get convinced by somebody else for a life, death, three seconds, I want to understand that mechanism that you went through. This is what I'm hunting for, Chris, is that oftentimes people have an experience where it's like, I wish I could, I don't know. And then they, they don't go. And it's not base jumping. It's like changing a career or becoming a parent or traveling for a year or

something. Right. a parent or traveling for a year or something, right? And I'm trying to sort out how you went from step one to step maybe 10. Well, I think it'd be helpful to go back to the big wall climbing because, you know, seeing El Cap for the first time five years earlier, I walked up to the base and had a kind of a similar reaction, which is, you know, this 3000 foot thing, this thing that, you know, you stack three Empire State buildings on top of each other. It's this scale that you can't even imagine. And you see people climbing it and you go, there is no way that is possible. But then I just met that kind of magical person who fast forwarded my climbing from basically

just being in a climbing gym to on top of El Cap six months later. And I got to see how you can take something that seems completely impossible and turn it into something that you just kind of do every day through, uh, you know, this kind of mastery process of finding a mentor who's really good and then dedicating your life to kind of you know cracking the code on how this all works so i knew as since having gone through that with the rock climbing and you know now having climbed el cap a lot i knew as soon as i saw base jumping my first reaction is that's insane. It's impossible. But I also now have seen how you can take an insane and impossible things and just kind of make them normal.

Okay. So it feels like, um, in, in some respects you, gosh, I still have a gap in my understanding of how you take that next step. I get that there's a theme for you, which is like, oh my God. And then there's a person that comes in and says, no, let me show you. And you believe them, either they're charismatic car salesmen, halfway joking, or they're really logical and sound. Yeah, really logical and sound. And maybe it's a hybrid of both or whatever combination. And then you begin to say, oh, I can. And I don't want to get to that step yet. I want to stay in this gap that we're in from I could never, I see people doing it, but I could never to actually planning to execute? Yeah, I mean, I think the big question for me is always, well, now that I see if it's possible or not, you know, is it really worth it? And that's kind of a bigger question, which is, you know, what do I want to actually be doing with my life? Do I want to spend

it on the side of a rock? You know, at first, that doesn't sound like the smartest thing until it becomes this kind of incredible teaching experience that just keeps giving and giving and giving to you. And then you realize, oh, wow, this is just kind of one of these amazing parts of life. And this is one of the journeys and this just is all clicking and feels right. So let's go do it. I just now understood how you work. Okay. So is this worth it? Is that the question? Yeah. And I feel like now I've been lucky enough to kind of go through enough of these impossible experiences to see that they can be made possible and heard a lot of and read a lot of books about people who've gone through things like that, that I feel like less the question is like what can be done and more the question is like,

what is the thing that is really going to be the most meaningful for me is going to connect me to people in the most, you know, kind of significant way, um, which at times in my life has been climbing rocks and jumping off them. And then now it's, it's gone in much different directions. But it kind of just comes back to that kind of meaning, you know, what is actually worth doing? What is worth spending our time on? Okay, so play this out for me, because at the end of this, I want to share an insight that I learned from folks that operate in consequential environments, backcountry stuff, is when you are assessing, is it worth it? Let's do base dumping first because it's a little bit more, I don't know, timely, meaning that you don't have to live on a side of a mountain for five years to get good at it. You do some prep and then you kind of take a shot at it.

And I'm not saying that cavalier, I'm just talking about the nature of the actual event. Yeah. Okay, is it worth it? So when you're trying to make that assessment, because I think that's an assessment we can all make, is route A or B or C, you know, I see the different routes I could take in life,

are they worth it? On the base jumping one, how do you think about walking away, not doing it versus doing it? How are you assessing the worth or the value of it? Well, so on the first jump, I knew it probably wouldn't be worth it in the long term. But I knew I could probably get away with it once and that you know everything is worth doing once um and sure enough right after the experience I was like yeah that was fine but it's not worth dying for like I'm gonna move on okay so did you have family at the time like um a partner or kids or any of that how old were you

probably 26 and what was what were you trying to sort out is it worth it what was it worth at that time and what was it worth not to do it um i mean i'd already seen um someone die base jumping. And so I already knew this can kill you pretty easily. And so there's so many kind of bigger, more exciting things to do in life to end it this quickly. But I knew that if I did it once and didn't kind of dedicate my life to it, then I'd probably be fine. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team,

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into that to just kind of sort out how you think because I said is it worth it and I did the no out the gate but you know what haunts me is that I said no yeah I mean it might have been the right no I don't know I know I want to understand why you said yes because I had the same thought which is I could definitely do that thing once yeah I feel like I could I have enough command to be able to stand at a tall height look at it and throw properly you know jump properly throw properly yeah and then like i figured that much but i still said no yeah i mean i guess there might have been peer pressure involved just kind of it was the thing to do um it it also i'd had enough friends who had done it kind of once or kind of knew around

the periphery and and i'd already thought about doing it it five years earlier with a whole group of people. But then someone in that group died rope jumping, not climbing or base jumping. And so it's kind of just always been on my mind. But the thing that really, you know, grabbed me and kind of took me into the sport was seeing the evolution of human flight where jumping off a tower is one thing but i then saw these guys in norway jumping off more or less 5 000 foot cliffs and then kind of carving the landscape you know in the same way that you might imagine like carving on skis but they were doing it with their bodies and i realized oh this is a magical moment this is the beginning of this whole new world of human flight of wingsuits and that this is this magical

moment when everything is going to evolve really quickly it's a golden age the the consequences are going to be high but it's also just going to be a magical time period that is going to pass. And I'd seen that happen in climbing, which the climbing golden age was in the late 50s and 60s where no one had ever climbed Half Dome or El Cap. And suddenly all these barriers were being broken. And as a climber, I was like, well, it's a bummer I never got to participate in that. And so when I saw this opportunity kind of on a platter in the base jumping world, I just felt just kind of overwhelmed that as long as I can kind of get in and get out, this is going to be a magical, magical time to be a wingsuit base jumper. And it was, and I'm glad I got out. Yeah. I think the average lifespan is what some of the guys say is about five years. Does that seem right to you?

Yeah, it's hard to say exactly, but that's probably about as good an estimate as any. And there's three reasons people leave. One is they leave because they just got banged up and they're scared out out of it. And they're like, no way. The other, and maybe too many people around them die. So it's like this intelligent kind of leave, but with a little bit of scar tissue. The other one is that they leave because they actually die, right? And I don't want to say that insensitively, but that's, you know,

and then the third is probably maybe you're on the third, which is like, okay, I have this. This is a healthy time to leave because there's other things that I want to do. Yeah, I'd say for me, there definitely were a couple of deaths that shook me, you know, where I was right there. And I got to see that this, you you know theoretical thing of your friends dying versus actually having a friend die right there with you um is it definitely shakes you but that doesn't stop a lot of people from continuing on with the sport but for me it was really all about this just doesn't really have much to teach me anymore it feels like the only reason I'd be doing this going forward would be I want to keep, you know, looking good on YouTube or, you know, it's just not really meaningful. Like,

clearly, I need to find something else because that meaning that it once had a year or two ago has kind of passed. And for me, that happens when you can kind of envision the outcome. And I started on almost every jump being like, I can envision how this will all go right, and it's not that exciting. What I can't envision is how it's going to go wrong, which is pretty likely. And that's really not exciting. So why would I want to do this anymore? Sounds super healthy. Yeah.

Right? And did you have friends that you jumped with die on that same jump? Yeah. And that was kind of the, the one that really, you know, got me is where I was in Baffin Island and jump with someone. And on the same jump, you know, I was able to fly out of a canyon and he wasn't. And that was, you know, a big, a big one. And then just over time, it'd be like, oh, this friend died. And then, you know, four months later, this one did. And that continued. And I mean, I guess it still continues a little to today where I've had maybe, I don't know, 20 friends die base jumping. So it's a lot of people. Yeah, it certainly is. How did that, that death of the person that didn't come out of the canyon, what was the impact of that for you? I mean, the immediate

feeling was, you know, trips over, I'm going home and, um, nothing's worth dying for, you know, maybe something is, but at that moment I couldn't think of anything worth dying for to kind of give up another 60 years of making connections and meeting people. And so it just kind of, you know, gutted all the fun out of it and all the kind of, oh, I'm doing this for self-discovery or I'm doing this for this reason. It's like, I don't think you're necessarily, it's not necessarily delivering those things to you anymore. And, and now you're going to start seeing more and people, more people die. Like it just doesn't, doesn't add up anymore. And did you continue after that? did kind of um two more kind of big jumps um and both of them had these moments where um i was kind of like well i'm going to get back into it i'm going to push it a little and in both instances when i pushed it a little i got close to you know basically hitting the cliff. And so it just kind of reinforced that this is just really not a good idea. Okay. You take the intensity up a notch because you're living

in that amphitheater of risk and consequence, or you did for a long time. And was that trauma? There's two types of trauma, right? And not every experience, by the way, has to be traumatic. Typical experiences of trauma doesn't have to be it. But one of the ways we think about it is like big T, like full-on traumatic, a small T. It's like, you know what? I paused a bit and it stressed me out, but it wasn't like this big traumatic experience. And it's a little weird to talk about because for most people I think it would be, but for me it wasn't. Would you categorize that as small T or big T, the loss of a friend not coming out of the canyon? It was definitely a big T. I'd had one other friend kind of close friend die in a plane accident and um both of those kind of you

know shook me to the core um and after those when more and more friends would die it became more of the small t where i imagine you know it would be like what a 90 year old feels like oh wow like i'm glad i made it to this point but now a lot of my older friends are no longer with me you know except in the base jumping world that just gets fast forwarded into your 20s and so you kind of get a little sadly you get numb and then those first few friends who died you know hit me really hard but over time it was just kind of like and one. And I think you sort of sadly get kind of used to it, which is, is really sad. What's it like talking about it now? So many years later? I mean, it, it sadly is kind of not as big a deal just because so many, um, people have died. It's,

it's like, I, I almost wish I was feeling more about it, but it's, it's just kind of become this kind of normal reality so that it just doesn't really shock you anymore. Yeah. So I want to learn from the big team moment to how you work through that traumatic experience. For me, it was just spending a lot of time thinking about kind of everything, especially, you know, when a friend, I don't know if you know Galen Rowell, he died in a plane crash. He kind of invented adventure photography in some respects. But he, you know, for me, that was the first time a really close friend died. And so I spent just so much time thinking about it, being rocked by it, taking long walks by myself, to just try to figure out what it all meant. And then, you know, that similar process happened

with a few friends who died base jumping. And then it's, I guess it's almost like you become exhausted from that process. And you're just like, I just don't know if I can do this every time someone passes. And so you just kind of start saying, well, this death thing, it sure is real. And I sure am going to try to prioritize what I'm doing to not meet it too early and make sure I get in as much stuff as possible before it. Okay. So you would process internally and it would exhaust you, the trying to make sense of it. Okay. So you're, you would process internally and it would exhaust you, the, the trying to make sense of it. And you didn't do a whole lot of talking with other people? Um, probably not a ton. Um, I'm kind of more, uh, internal probably processor, um, might, might've been helpful, might've gotten me through things a lot quicker. I'd probably be

much more likely to do that now. But at the time, I was coming much more from like this kind of Zen Buddhism, you know, spend a lot of time kind of studying that and thinking like, oh, this is just for me to kind of meditate on and figure out myself. As opposed to now, I take much more a community aspect of it, which would be, man, there's so many people who I know and love who could kind of help me get through this. What a radical insight. That was a surprise to me. You know, like I'm right now going, oh, that's a gem that was unexpected, that your internal process is valuable and it worked for you. And with a little bit more experience, life experience, you're saying, you know, community matters too. But what I'm struck by for you is, as a general theme right now, Chris, is that you, one, you go for it.

And two, you take it seriously and you're intense and purposeful and you're looking for meaning in life and deep understanding, so much so that you meditate, you've found the Zen traditions to discern and contemplate big order stuff, life, death, purpose, meaning, all of that. And you're now at a phase where community is an accelerant to that growth rather than what you're doing early days, which is not right or wrong, but more of an individual discernment experience. Does that sound right so far? Yeah. I mean, I think the framework I'm now think about a lot is just kind of the story you know the story of life

my story and um and for me the zen story was very much about it's all in your head so you just need to spend time with your head to tell the best story and then kind of later in life it's like no actually the best story is going to come from really getting great ideas from other people around you through mentors, through kind of, you know, close friends, then combine it with this kind of maybe, you know, Zen story of, you know, and all the kind of great stuff that came from that and kind of weave a more interesting, bigger picture than I could just do sitting by myself, you know, at the base of El Cap, which is, you know, what I did in my teenage years. Yeah. And you were good at it. You even still to this day, wholesome records is what I was able to understand. Uh, yeah, they're,

they're slowly fading away, but yeah, there's still a few there. Yeah. You didn't, you didn't, you didn't make the free solo one? That wasn't one of your records? I'm joking. There's only one person. That's a whole other level. Do you think that anyone will challenge that? You know, like the Roger Bannister four-minute mile that now Alex has free soloed El Cap?

I really don't. I mean, I'm a little biased in that I'm friends with them and that I'm a climber. But I feel like I know enough about kind of other sports to know that, you know, typically there's this progression and someone can stand out for a little while, but then they inspire someone else to kind of raise the kind of the physical abilities that then match that you know your example with the four minute mile um you know how like once that's done the next day all sorts of people can do it because you know it's this kind of mental thing that people were able to get past combined with the physical but what alex is doing is just so on this mental level that's kind of you know obviously connected to the physical but it's such this mental high stakes game that you know base jumping doesn't even really touch that it's really hard to imagine someone following that and i think the evidence is that a lot of the warm-up climbs to doing l cap you know like half dome and all these other, people still haven't even come close to repeating or even thinking about repeating,

which kind of tells you something. I had him on Finding Mastery, and we did it live in front of an audience at one of USC's large stadiums, or not stadiums, but theaters. And I think he's one of the most significant minds in sport, for sure. And I think my's one of the most significant minds in sport, for sure. And I think my assessment from a distance is I think you're affirming it,

which is that if you imagine an arrow, like the tip of the arrow for him in you guys' sport is like this really long, narrow tip of the arrow where most are rather flat heads. And the tip is still the tip, but it's relatively flat, meaning two, three, four, five, six percents below is kind of bunched up. But for him, like the 1% that he's out on is this really sharp pointed arrow that doesn't look like a normal arrow tip. And anyways, that, that's my

like graphic analogy of how I think about him and what he's done. And there's not many people that are going to get close to it. Yeah. I mean, just pushing things in that kind of that head space. It's just having spent so much time on El Cap, it's just still, I still can't even imagine being up there. Um, and there's, I can't think of anyone else who's even thought about attempting it. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that.

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That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. So, okay. So let's go back to you about meaning and purpose in life. And plenty of folks ask me, and I want to ask you, and I want to set it up with my response first and see what you think, is that they say, Mike, why? Why do they do this?, and I'm kind of being nice there, you know, the person that's asked me your life, basically, that you're sitting at a desk nine hours a day. And that inside in, you know, fake lights and artificial deadlines and goals that are manufactured by an industry that would not sustain a life altering or eco altering impact. And and so I don't say all that, but I say they look at people sitting at a desk all day as crazy. And so I just want to hear from you when people look at you and you know that they think that what you've done is crazy. Climbing El Cap. Check. But base jumping foreshore, check, check.

And how do you respond to that? Well, I mean, I think of most of what I'm doing is kind of creativity for non-artists, creativity for people who just can't play an instrument, can't draw, take a photo. So for me, it's kind of this creative expression. And so I think that kind of goes to the question of like, why do people do anything creative? Um, it doesn't have this real, um, pass on your genes function. It doesn't have this practical element. Um, so why would you bother doing anything creative? And I mean, I think the only answer for me is like, like, that is kind of the best part about being human, at least that I found is kind of pursuing these creative outlets. Corey was right. He said that we're gonna really have a

great conversation. Like, yes, I'm going Yeah, great way to say it. And one of the ways I think about it is like the greatest mathematicians took the next natural step in their profession, which was game changing, risk-taking out there. People thought they were kind of nuts for exploring this, whatever, you know, theorem. And, and in your profession, yours just has physical consequence. There's maybe had professional consequence or time consequence, you know, pursuing something that maybe is a waste of quote unquote time, but it's the pursuit. And what I hear you saying, it's the artistic pursuit. It's the creative pursuit. Yeah. It's, it's basically thinking of something way outside my comfort zone or kind of the realm of possibility that is just really exciting and then seeing a little sliver of a way

to maybe get there and then just go down that path um and so it used to be base jumping and climbing and now it's all these these other different things but it But I think it's all the same kind of process, which is just that kind of really exciting journey to something that is a little scary, definitely outside your comfort zone, but you have enough of kind of a base or a support group or whatever to be like, okay, I think I can get there. And the more I have to push myself to get there,

probably the more rewarding it's going to be. You just described parenting. Phew, all right. Yeah, good. So how, and you know, parenting for the caring, the people who are thoughtful and discern, you know, like meaning and purpose, like this conversation is about take it seriously

and it's hard it's really hard and we're over our skis on a regular basis but parents who like don't really care and it's just they had a kid because that's what you're supposed to do like i think parenting is easy but psychological internal crisis is hard and it's easy because they don't really care and it sounds super super callous, but listen, I know plenty of folks that I would not want to be their kid. Yeah, no, I mean, for me, it's I'm only a month in, but it's already making me kind of rethink everything, you know, the education system to, you know, how I'm going to hide any evidence that I ever base jumped, because i don't want her to feel that that's something that she needs to to you know hopefully she'll just find her own path

you know and not feel like she needs to follow that one because it's not not one i would recommend how are you going to apply the lessons you've learned from consequential environments to both your business, but maybe now even parenting? Like, what do you think you're going to hook around and bring with you? I mean, I think the consequential stuff is good because it's so in your face and there's not a lot of nuance when you're base jumping or when you're trying to explain what's happening when base jumping. Um, but you know, so much of the rest of life is more nuanced.

And so, um, hopefully there'll be some, some examples there, but I'm not gonna, you know, use it as a crutch that much. Um, the climbing I think is a much better example. Um, just as far as the metaphor of, of thinking of something really big that takes a lot of work and a lot of practice and a lot of the work isn't that exciting, but then it all comes together to be this, um, really, you know, amazing thing to be able to climb El Cap. Um, and so I think that'll be much more likely to be kind of, you know, taking from my past things to pass on. But for the most part, it's going to be, I think, and what I'm excited about

is just kind of coming up with all these other different possibilities and knowing that, you know, she's probably not going to be into the same stuff I am. And so then to just follow her and see how I can help just support that. So something that's unique about both of your sports is self-reliance, you know, is that you in base jumping, obviously you put your life in your hand as well as climbing. It's like, you have to make these micro decisions and there are, uh, there are moments of risk, you know, like when things go wrong or when holds are not what you thought they would be or you're not secured or there are some pins that are missing or whatever the conditions are.

But self-reliance is a big deal in adventure sports. And how do you think you'll help your daughter? And this is a little bit loaded, but how do you think you'll help her develop self-reliance if that is an attribute that you value? I mean, it definitely is. And the whole experience of just kind of going to Yosemite, making that pilgrimage, and figuring out how to live on no money and how to dedicate your life to something and to find a passion. I mean, I think those are great lessons. So I'm excited to share those to kind of show that whole kind of climbing culture that, you know, has evolved around frugality, around not just following that kind of earlier example you gave of you have to necessarily think of life as being

indoors, you know, like, oh, there's this whole potential to do it outdoors. But then there's now this more nuanced way to kind of combine that to combine this passion for the outdoors with, you know, starting your own business, finding your own way to connect with other people. And so figuring out kind of where all those things will intersect. Are you a certified dirtbag? I mean, I was. I can no longer claim that. You can't. You're an entrepreneur, business owner. You got buildings and properties, huh? Yeah.

Okay. But you were a dirtbag. Yeah, I did get the, um, camp for MBA is what I call it. You know, the whole idea that, um, instead of getting a summer job, like most of my friends did in high school, I was going to just actually figure out the, um, cost side. How do I spend zero money? Then I don't need to get a job. And I'm just going to kind of, you know, live in my car, live in the caves, you know, eat leftover pizza when people get up from their seats at Curry Village, you know, all that stuff, I think is super important, just because it shows you that you don't have to follow how everyone else does things, you don't have to kind of raise your standard of living just like everyone else does, you can actually have a lot of, you know, meaningful stuff by,

by ignoring that altogether and kind of embracing frugality. Um, and then also that just plays so much into creating your own business where often you want to be in a great space where you can try a whole bunch of ideas that aren't going to work. And if you have this high overhead, it's going to create such a more challenging environment to make those ideas happen. Did you have high standards or low standards? And I think that there's an interesting way you could have both. But I don't want to, again, I don't want to lead you down a path. But when you think about that time when you were a dirtbag, did you have high standards or low standards? Well, I mean, I was eating canned corn and pretzels.

So I'd say they were pretty low standards. And even to this day, I still drink probably more boxed wine than i should admit to so it's on that level it's low standards but it's also just i think defining what what you call high standards like for me um spending the majority of time kind of engaged in stuff that really you're passionate about i think that's that's a high Um, and so that's, um, there, there's so many ways to, to kind of look at that, that whole process. And I would say I was keeping a high standard, but anyone looking from the outside would be like that guy sleeping in the dirt and eating canned corn. Oh God. Okay. What are you, what are you searching for, Chris? Like, what are you trying to sort out

with your time on this planet? I mean, I think the simple answer would be, you know, flow, you know, finding those states that you're just totally present, totally engaged in. For me, it's now much more about those states with friends and family and my daughter whereas I feel like that's one of the great things about being young and a teenager is you get to just be all about yourself and then that's what kind of the climbing the base jump we're about and now it's like okay I've now realized that there's just only so many things you can do totally about yourself. It just kind of at a certain point isn't that exciting anymore.

And what really is rewarding is figuring out how to find those kind of flow states with friends and family. I am so turned off by the industry of self-improvement, high performance, whatever, self-achievement for the aim of what? So that you can be on the podium? So that you can have a medal? For what? And it's a crisis because it's like where my industry, where my efforts are invested in is helping people become their very best, but it can't stop there. It must extend into paying it forward, paying it out, being a pebble in the pond where the ripple effect

is creating a get better good for maybe the planet and certainly for other people. So I think we're saying the same thing. Yeah, totally. And it's tricky because it's an important tool to have to kind of connect with yourself and really do something for yourself. It's just better if you can kind of get that tool worked out, I think, earlier in life. And I remember my dad writing me this letter being like, come on, son, are you really just going to spend all your time on LCAP? Like, how about connecting with other people? But in that moment I was still kind of, you know, had the training wheels on trying to figure out so many things. So just pursuing the climbing all cap, the Buddhism, the base jumping, whatever, like it was important for it to be all about me. And then luckily, um, for both myself and my dad, apparently, um, I made that transition into being like, okay,

that's a great tool to have in the kit. But now what are we going to do with that tool? What have you earned the right to say to yourself? And even in challenging environments or challenging situations in your life, you know, to be true. I mean, I think the big one I think about, you know, more recently is just how it's all this kind of big story and that it's up to you how to kind of tell it well. And that you just have to make sure you're kind of true to it and that you are not following some trajectory that is not true to it. And so that, I mean, that's more or less what I kind of keep coming back to, you know, more recently is just making sure that that story is really the best it can be. You're an agent in your life, right?

That you have the ability to author your narrative. And in doing so, do you spend time in advance front-loading where you want to go? Or is it more how you want to go, like who you want to be? Is it both? And do you, and maybe you don't front load at all, but can you walk through how you become the author? I think for me, the most important thing is people, you know, surrounding yourself with, you know, five kind of key mentors at any one moment. And then, you know, over time, those mentors change, but it's just so hard to do any better than having someone really inspiring that you can connect with regularly.

And then also just reading a ton of books. There's just so many great books out there. And I feel like, you know, that would be one tip, you know, if more people switch the amount of time on social media or just reading kind of news with reading really thoughtful books, I think it makes such a difference for really helping come up with these narratives and these ideas that are much more empowering and puts you more at the controls rather than kind of just following along. Okay. I want to go one of two directions. You pick. Who are the people that you would say over the course of your life have been the most influential? And it's more interesting to me if you narrowed it down to people that maybe the world recognizes

but maybe you don't have those folks whether they're historic or not and then the other is like what are the books well I mean I'd say living life like Ben Franklin did has always been kind of a create the modern version of that would be a big goal just because there wasn't necessarily one thing he did. It was much more he kind of just caught this amazing trajectory and then followed it into so many different places, whether it was, you know, science, government, all these different

things. So if there was one person that's kind of brought more broadly known, it would, it would be him. But then of course, the people who, you know, who are close to me, like my parents, my business partners, I mean, they're the ones who I'm talking with and working with day by day who have made, you know, just such a huge impact. What was the one message that your mom installed or, you know, created for you? I mean, the big thing was they just really wanted me to fully express myself. And they didn't try to put me in one kind of box. But at the same time, they gave me all the tools. You know, they said, you don't have to go do this, but you really should graduate from high school. You know, that type of, which, you know, at times when I was climbing El Cap all the time, I was just so hooked on this thing that felt so good. I was like, why would I bother finishing high school or even go to college?

So they were really good about you should explore all of this, but also check a few of these boxes. And then also they were just kind of my best friends, which for my long time, it was, you're not supposed to admit that, especially in high school that you really like your parents. But I just feel so lucky that they were my best friends and that they kind of were so supportive. And I feel like I got just a huge leg up from that. Do you feel like they got you? They get you? Oh, yeah, totally. And, you know, they introduced me to kind of the whole kind of Eastern way of thinking. You know, the Alan Watts tapes, kind of all these things that

were very relevant to them in the late 60s and 70s that were even still really relevant today that really shaped me. So would you put Alan Watts up there with Benjamin Franklin? Well, I mean, it's so hard to say these things because at the moment they just were earth shattering. But today, if I recommended that to someone, I'm like, I don't know if that would be as relevant to that person or not. Yeah. Yeah. Well, for you, it was part of your journey. Alan Watts, it sounds like. What was so cool is he had just had this amazing voice. And so there was all these books on tape back when books on tape were actually on tape and you put them on it in a tape player. But, you know, having, you know, not having ever heard ben franklin speak but here you have alan watts with this amazing voice kind of conveying all these kind of mind shattering ideas um it was

kind of like the closest thing to having your own kind of personal mentor for me at that time when i was you know 17 you know i've got a phrase that sticks out for me for alan watch what's he's so known for it's not like it's a new idea but the only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and enjoy the dance or something like that. And I think that it's like, yeah, right? If you really want to make sense of something, you've got to get in it and then enjoy the stumbling and the flow that comes with that dance. Yeah, okay, so how about the books? What about the books? And then enjoy the stumbling and the flow that comes with that dance. Yeah. Okay.

So how about the books? What about the books? Early on, it was kind of a lot of the classics, you know, Man's Search for Meaning, Viktor Frankl, you know, Tibetan Book of the Living and Dying, kind of all these kind of um classics i guess you say the doubt doubt aging and then since then i just feel like there's just so many good ones it'd be hard to pick any ones that jump out i was just had this conversation with somebody and they said okay my top five and i said okay dow day jing uh five. And I said, okay, Tao Te Ching. I said, Man's Search for Meaning. I said, hey, I did the Bible and I did Buddhist readings. I did, what was the other one? Yeah. So like pretty interesting. Yeah, pretty interesting. I love it. What other books that do you add to that list uh i mean lately you know homo deus you know you've all know harari dude he is good um i i really liked

kind of for for feeling more optimistic um you know some of for being like, we're so equipped now to take small bits of bad news and kind of make them blow them way out of proportion, just based on kind of our own evolutionary DNA, that we should really step back and say, you know, what are we really going to be scared of? And what should we really be inspired by and make sure we're choosing the right things. Did you read Alan Watts or listen The Way of Zen? I think so. I read everything I could of his, but it was also 20 years ago. It was a good one for me. Yeah. Yeah. Cool, man. Okay. So brilliant. I feel like we, at some point we need to meet in person. I've enjoyed kind of exactly how you think. And you actually said yes to some of the stuff that I said no to. And I'm fascinated by that. And bravo, you know, and I might've made the right decision. I don't

know, but it's still, it's still, you know, but still, okay. On the other side of it, business, tell me about your business and what you're doing and you know, what you're trying to sort out. Um, you know, like walk us through that a little bit. Uh, well, so the business, you know, outdoor gear lab is the main business now, um, came from, um, super topo, which came from climbing El Cap and realizing I was totally unemployable unless I figured out how to turn this passion for being outside into my job. And so I spent so much time on El Cap that I realized I could write a guidebook on how to actually do that. And so Super Topo came out of that and then we published 20 guidebooks and then came up with this online community, which was really popular, but it was never actually a

business. And so 10 years after starting Super Topo with my business partner, RJ Spurrier, we said, how can we take, you know, a client, a giant community of outdoor people and really serve them. And so that's where the gear review idea came. And at first, I wasn't sure about it, but he was passionate, and I'm really glad I followed his lead because it's been a really great business and it's been really exciting to kind of grow this kind of gear review company and be a big part of the outdoor world. Okay. So what is the business model based on? It sounds like the mission is serving the community

by taking a first pass, an expert point of view on gear. Yeah. Right. And then what is the business model? Like, how does it work? So it's kind of the modern incarnation of Consumer Reports. And, you know, Consumer Reports is a nonprofit that started a long time ago saying, we really want to make sure that people are buying things for, you know, the right safety reasons, for the right durability reasons, and for the reasons that will actually help them and not just because of something's really well marketed.

So we're going to do this really in-depth research and make sure that when people are buying products, it's really the best product for them. And so they had this and still do have this subscription model. And we came up with a way through kind of advertising to create a free model. And so it's inspired by that same Consumer Reports-like idea of how do you help people find, in this world where there's just so much marketing and so many different products, how do you help people find the thing that will really help them on their outdoor adventure? And so it is advertiser-driven? Is that how you're doing it? of the actual person who makes the product so that you can be as objective as possible. But at the end of the day, it's sharing in some of the revenue where the product's finally sold.

Okay. So if you've got like, I don't know, some sort of, let's say a jacket on your website, and then you're writing a review of that, or not like a hardcore review, but your take on it. And then if I'm like, oh, I like what he said there or your team said there and I click on it, then there's a bug or a link that follows that through. And then you're getting a little bit of an affiliate or not. Exactly. It's not a kickback. It's just called a percentage, whatever. Yeah.

Yeah, whatever. Yeah. Yeah, good. So how does that – it seems like there's maybe two masters in that, right? Which is you got to be authentic and kick some content's ass or some gear's ass or do you only write about things that you like? So the way we do it is say we're looking at camping tents. There might be 200 camping tents out there. So we'll start by narrowing it down to like, what do we think are the 15 that you're really considering? And then we'll buy them all and go test them all side by side. And so we've started by narrowing the 200 down to 15. And now we'll take the 15 and say, you know, how did these really compare? Which ones are the best value? which ones are best for specific applications and then at the end of that process we hopefully create you know answers that when people then go buy those products they're like thank this is so awesome that someone did all this hard work

i've been so satisfied with what i got i'm'm going to tell friends about it. And so basically the way that the business works is we just need a ton of people to then do that. And I think today we've had maybe a hundred million people over the last like 10 years. Yeah, that's what's up. Yeah. Look at that. Okay, that feels like there's not two masters. It's that you're saying of the 200, here's the 15 we like. And then of those 15, they all have different applications or different durability factors or cold weather factors or warm weather factors. And so you're going to kind of sort them a little bit so that you're doing the homework for your community. Yeah, and we rate everything so that if we gave something the top marks, but we rated it on a metric that you don't care about, like you're like, I don't really care about weight. I just want something that's really comfortable.

You can actually then go and sort everything to kind of get your own results. So you can use our kind of data to then kind of hone in to like, well, what is actually going to help you on your next family camping trip? Did you outsource or did the engineers and architects go internal in your business? We do a kind of a combination of everything. We're kind of this modern company that's sort of based everywhere with all sorts of people working across the country. And then we also have stuff that's kind of in-house. So we've kind of done this hybrid.

How do you do – now I'm in the weeds because I have the company that Coach Carroll and I are building. We have – our team is spread out a bit. We're centralized between los angeles and seattle and one of the challenges is remote meetings like how do you how do you build culture in a way that no it's not in culture that's not the question the question is like how do you build efficiencies around people being all over the planet or country? You know, it's hard. And it's something that we're always trying to... Because it feels hard to me too.

Yeah, but I think at the core, I think most of the people who come to work for us really get what we're trying to do. That we're all about this you know mission of trying to cut through the clutter of really helping people of giving people the best gear to then go kind of flog and real adventures and our job is just to basically find that right person who that that mission just totally connects with and and we feel like when we do that, um, that's when all the, the synergy helps. If we don't do that really well is, is when you have to have more meetings

and where it, it's kind of, um, a lot trickier. And so, you know, I think the answer for us is to, to architect the whole process from the beginning as well as we can. And how often do you have meetings? Not a ton. We definitely believe in putting a lot of the effort into hiring the right people and getting them the right tools and then really being autonomous and being like we we trust you um this is kind of what i'd say kind of our our culture is you are inspiring thank you for

like your insights and your wisdoms and i gosh i hope that um the the questions were are did you justice because i think that you've got a deep well of information and insights. So thank you. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. You know, we didn't answer that one question, which is like, do you think that you're going to, this is about your daughter. Like, do you think that you'll do traditional school or are you going to do an alternative route for education? So my wife is a teacher. And so we are going to be thinking pretty much of all those options. And I think pursuing them all and that everyone's like, your kids aren't gonna be in school for, you know, years. And we're like, No, this is like this 10 year kind of, or, you know,

five to 10 year vision of figuring it all out. So it's kind of our next adventure. We don't know exactly where it'll lead, but we're excited. I spent a bunch of time with folks on the surf tour, so the world-class surfers and the WSL tour. And there's a healthy amount. First of all, there's most people on tour, not most, maybe most,

they didn't finish high school and they're the best surfers on the planet. It's like, it's one of those sports at an early age it's really important to if you're got an inkling of the talent and you really love it like you got to chip in early which the cost is often high school education but there's other forms of education right non non-traditional forms of education all that being said is there's a healthy, many of them that are having kids now and they're like, yeah, you know what? Traditional school is whack. It's teaching kind of old ideology and we don't believe in it. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it's a

community that is pushing against traditional norms of education. And it's not like this formal movement. It's just thoughtful people that hang out together saying, I'm not sure what I'm going to do with traditional education for my kids. And is that what I'm hearing from you? I mean, I think it's going to be a combo. Like a great example is there's so many STEM programs that are starting kind of organically. In fact, like one of our employees is running one of the local STEM camps. And it's, I just see hopefully having a really great strong

core in the school system, but then having so many other kind of nodes outside that, like this STEM academies and various things like that. And then just having all those options to kind of create kind of the perfect combo of them. Got it. Yeah, it makes sense for you. Okay, awesome, dude. Where can we find you? Where can we follow along with what you're doing

and what you're building? Obviously, outdoorgearlab.com, right? If you're looking for purchases. And where else can we find you? Yeah, I'd say, I mean, that's the best spot. And then also a lot of the stuff we're trying to do in Tahoe, as far as kind of, you know, build the community, um, can I kind of highlight that stuff at chrismcnamara.com and, um, and on Instagram. Okay, good. And then what's

the titles of your book? Um, so there's how to big wall climb Yosemite big walls. There's, there's maybe 18 or so of these kind of how-to books all published by Super Topo. There you go. Okay, Chris, awesome. Thank you for your time and insights. And I think people are going to have a lot of questions in our tribe for you. So would you be okay if I forward those to you? Or if you want to jump into the tribe, like it's a flourishing community of people that, um, you know, there's thousands

of thousands of people supporting and challenging each other on their, their journey of mastery. And I'd love that. I'd love to jump in. This is a lot of my favorite stuff to think and talk and share about. Awesome. Okay. All right, Chris, appreciate you. Awesome. We'll talk soon. Okay. Take care. Bye. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify.

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