Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Creating Opportunities, Resiliency, and Confidence | WNBA MVP, Nneka Ogwumike

Episode Date: February 10, 2021

This week’s conversation is with Nneka Ogwumike the 2016 WNBA MVP, WNBA Champion, and 1st overall pick of the Los Angeles Sparks in the 2012 WNBA Draft.Nneka is on a mission to inspire others to discover their greatness with an open heart, enthusiasm, integrity, courage, and compassion.She is currently serving as President of the WNBA Players’ Association (WNBPA) and successfully led the group in its renegotiation of a groundbreaking WNBA’s Collective Bargaining Agreement.She is a six-time WNBA All-Star, three-time All-WNBA selection, three-time All-Defensive WNBA selection and was the 2012 WNBA Rookie of the Year. A graduate of Stanford University with a BA in Psychology, Nneka led the school to four consecutive Final Four appearances.Hailing from one of sport’s most dynamic families, Nneka is the oldest of four sisters who have played Division I basketball.With her sister Chiney's selection as the 1st overall pick by the Connecticut Sun in the 2014 WNBA Draft, the family made history, joining Peyton and Eli Manning as the only siblings ever selected number one overall in a professional sports league.Nneka and Chiney now play together on the LA Sparks. In this conversation we discuss Nneka’s upbringing, what gave her the confidence to believe she could play professionally, which mental skills have been integral towards creating her resilient nature._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

It's intentionally built for deep work. So there's no social media, no email, no noise. The writing experience, it feels just like pen on paper. I love it. And it has the intelligence of digital tools like converting your handwriting to text, organizing your notes, tagging files, and using productivity templates

to help you be more effective. It is sleek, minimal. It's incredibly lightweight. It feels really good. I take it with me anywhere from meetings to travel without missing a beat. What I love most is that it doesn't try to do everything. It just helps me do one very important thing really well,

stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. One of the mental skills that I practice every day is certainly quieting my mind. I don't, I don't know if anyone has ever truly mastered it because we're all human beings, but practice makes practice. You know, I think that every opportunity that I have to quiet my mind is a learning opportunity and it's not the last one. And it's not the worst one. It's not the best one. It's always something that I know it's going to have to be worked on. And it's something that I have to hone constantly. Okay, welcome back,

or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist. And the whole idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who have committed their life efforts towards mastery, to better understand what they're searching for, to understand how they use their mind, how they've built their psychological framework to make sense of themselves and the world around them. And we also want to dig and understand how did they build the mental skills that carry them, that support them, that allow them to deal with the difficult, high-stress, high-pressured environments that they tend to run toward.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort.

It takes a real caring about your people. It takes the right tools, the right information at the right time. And that's where LinkedIn Sales Navigator can come in. It's a tool designed specifically for thoughtful sales professionals, helping you find the right people that are ready to engage, track key account changes,

and connect with key decision makers more effectively. It surfaces real-time signals, like when someone changes jobs or when an account becomes high priority, so that you can reach out at exactly the right moment with context and thoroughness that builds trust. It also helps tap into your own network more strategically, showing you who you already know that can help you open doors or make a warm introduction. In other words, it's not about more outreach.

It's about smarter, more human outreach. And that's something here at Finding Mastery that our team lives and breathes by. If you're ready to start building stronger relationships that actually convert, try LinkedIn Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Fighting Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods.

And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform. And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein Bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put him on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening.

I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day. One a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell.

Okay. All right, look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so conveniently into a performance-based lifestyle and actually tastes good. Dr. Peter Attia, someone who's been on the show, it's a great episode by the way, is also their chief science officer. So I know they've done their due diligence in that category. My favorite flavor right now is the

chocolate chip cookie dough. And a few of our teammates here at Finding Mastery have been loving the fudge brownie and peanut butter. I know, Stuart, you're still listening here. So getting enough protein matters. And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery, for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash Finding Mastery. Now, this week's conversation is with Nneka Agwumake.

In 2016, she was the WNBA MVP. She was the WNBA champion and the first overall number one pick of the Los Angeles Sparks back in 2012. How about it? So as a professional athlete, those are important milestones to win a championship, to be the MVP, and certainly to be first out of a selection is really pretty special. So Nneka though, underneath the surface, she's on a mission. It's really clear in this conversation and it is about helping others.

You'll see how many times she points to others in a way that has just grace and eloquence, but it comes from a place of strength and authenticity. And she's really on a mission to help people with this open heart and this vibrant enthusiasm. But there's a grounded integrity and not only a tolerance for risk, but like this inviting nature to express courage with compassion. I mean, she's got it now. And so she's currently serving as the president of the WNBA Players Association. That's a tough job to do. You're representing the players and the players' interests and trying to sort out how to have that right, healthy tension with ownership. And so it is a tough job. I've seen some athletes take it in the NFL. It's a really tough job. And

so there's a diplomacy that is required. There's an intelligence that's required. And so that too comes through in this conversation. And she is also a six-time WNBA All-Star, three-time All-WNBA selection, and a three-time All-Defensive WNBA selection, and also was the 2012 Rookie of the Year. I mean, it just doesn't stop, does it? Now, let's cap it off a little bit here. If we keep winding back in history, she's a graduate of Stanford University, one of the greatest universities on the planet, with a bachelor's degree in psychology. And then while she was there playing basketball, obviously, Nneka led the school to four consecutive

Final Four appearances. I mean, think about that. Every stage, there's a commitment to excellence. So that's what we're doing in this conversation is peeling back the layers to better understand what sits at the core for her. So we discuss her upbringing and the experiences and interpretations of experiences that has allowed her and supported her develop confidence in an authentic way where she could not only play professionally, but really do something special. And then of course, we're going to dig into the mental skills that have been so integral for her and her resilient nature. So with that, let's jump right into this conversation with the legend

Nneka Agumake. Nneka, how are you? Michael, I'm well. Thank you for asking. I'm doing pretty good. Okay. So your journey, your adventure in life, if you will, is epic. And so thank you for spending some time to share your insights and what you've come to learn. So let's give a broad stroke first. Okay, let's start with where were you born? Let's start there. I was born in Tomball, Texas, which is just outside of Greater Houston. Okay. What was the family like? I am second generation Nigerian American, born and raised in greater Houston, Texas. And I'm the oldest of four girls to Nigerian immigrant parents who moved to Houston after going to school at Weber State.

Okay. Why did they come to the States? Opportunity. Opportunity and education. Where did they grow to the States? Opportunity. Opportunity and education. Where did they grow up? What part of Nigeria? So my mom was from the city closer to Lagos. And then my dad is from the Eastern side, Imo State. And my mom's from Anambra State.

Okay. And were they from the same tribe or different tribes? Same tribe, the Igbo tribe. Igbo tribe. Okay. And there's three, if I understand it, there's three main tribes. There's three main tribes, but several. So many. Yeah. I spent a little time in Lagos. And so I loved it there. I mean, I don't know if you've had the opportunity to spend any time there but um beautiful people um big like big bodies you know like large humans as a you know yes is that right like you know and so yeah and and then the vibrance what is the spice you have what do you do you do you know the spice that i'm talking about

is a very hot kind of interesting you can't describe it in any way. I've never tasted anything like it. What is that spice called? To be honest, I couldn't give you the name of it. I just know it as red pepper. Okay. That's what they called it too. I'm like, this is not a red pepper that I've had before. And it was a joke. There was a place that we went out to eat and they were taking care of us like, you know, they're taking care of us. Right. It was me and a coworker and they're taking care of us and they're like, oh, you got to try, you got to try. And they're like, but not too much.

Like, and then they're making fun of me. Oh, you know, the white boy can't handle it, you know, and that type of thing. And so, and so I'm like, okay, let me try it. And it like, I was sweating. Yeah. It'll, it'll get you. But it's not what I love about it. Oh yeah.

Go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah. What I love about it is that you can add it to food and it doesn't compromise the taste of your food that's it so it's not like it overpowers it and it's not like a habanero pepper or something like it's totally different yeah it is yeah that's okay i i really enjoyed my time there and um notwithstanding that the political system and the government system seems just so upside down. And I think corruption is a big deal and the gray market is a big deal. And the people are beautiful and fight the fight and are trying to figure it out, was my experience at least.

Yeah. You know, I always like to say that Nigeria's greatest resource is its people. And I think that it is on us, both there and abroad, to turn it right side up. You know, it's too valuable of a place with too much richness in the people and the culture for it to be the way it is now. Ah, yeah. Amen to that. Okay. Before we, I want to go back to your family because I want to get a framework in place. And then, but let me tell you a fun little story because I think it captures a beautiful part of the culture that your family's from is that, so we're meeting, it's an executive team and I'll keep the company out of it,

but they are very influential in the country. And it was probably about, Oh, let's say 150 folks. Okay. And I walked in, I'm from California and I walked in, um, I had, uh, you know, nice jeans and I had, um, like a button up, you know, uh, I think I had a sweater actually. And, um, I walked in and let me tell you, dressed to the nines. I mean, the dress was impeccable. It was like, I was like, and I told him, I said, right out the gates, I said, wow, I am so fricking impressed by like the attention to detail and like, and I, I loved every moment of it and then so they said and then we laughed back and forth it was good moment and so they said hey mike do

you mind if we start a certain way i said sure and they said okay so they said a prayer in islam an islamic prayer a christian prayer and then a tribal prayer. And there was all three tribes there. And so it just reset my framing about, oh, wait a minute. This is different. It's rich. It's inclusive. It is culturally vibrant. And I loved every part of it. So can you speak to some of that, like your experience of this inclusive tribal slash spiritual slash in it together-ness? Sure. As Nigerians, pride runs through your veins. And that's in every way.

And so much of the culture is kind of homogeneous, but also a mixture of so many different things. And that inclusiveness comes with the pride. but also a mixture of so many different things. And that inclusiveness comes with the pride. And that's something that if you don't know anything about Nigerians, you're going to know about how prideful they are to the point that they will celebrate anyone that they don't know, as long as they know, Oh, that person has Nigerian blood. They're one of us. That's how it felt. Yeah. It was so good.

You know what I felt like? It's a weird thing. I felt that. And it was really strong. And I was like, I want to create that. I want to be part of their tribal experience because the love was high, the intelligence was high, the vibrance was high. And I was like, I want to be part.

And I told them that. I said, I want to be in this. And they're like, yeah, you got was high, the vibrance was high. And I was like, I want to be part. And I told them that. I said, I want to be in this. And they're like, yeah, you got to create your own. You know, it was awesome. Yeah, it was so good. So that's part of the reason I was excited to talk to you about, because you've done some really special stuff in your life. And I want to understand that pride part because I think if I oversimplify it, you carry your Nigerian heritage with you.

Where I don't. I don't carry my Irish, Italian, American, you know, I don't carry my heritage with me. And I feel sad for that. You know, I feel like I'm missing something. And can you just talk about that? And I've never had this part of a conversation with anybody. And so there's a hole that I'm coming from. And I'm inspired by the what you do with yours. Thank you. You know, it's kind of instilled, but then also too in what you described, you know, feeling the culture, not just knowing it, but feeling it when you're in it.

It's very constant. It's what we were raised with, but it's also what permeates a lot of our experiences, even outside of being born in Nigeria. It's very important for us to maintain the integrity of the lineage, of the tradition, and the culture. And I love to bring that in what I do everywhere, but also especially as being someone who is second generation, you know, I think that that, that delicate balance of the best of both worlds, it's, I mean, there's no intersectionality like it. And I think a lot of what makes me Nigerian makes me who I am. And a lot of what makes me American makes me who I am and no one says that

it's one or the other you know there's a blend that really that really kind of contributes to how I am how I try to exude excellence how I try to ensure that you know there's flavor to what I'm doing um that really speaks to my heritage and also can speak to others that relate to it. Oh, there you go. Yeah. My wife is first generation from Cuba and El Salvador. And so Spanish was her first language and she carries that. She's got that thing that you're describing. And I think this is a much larger conversation for the Caucasian population maybe in America. I can't speak for all, of course, but I feel like I'm missing that, you know, and so I'm inspired by it. That's why like when we're building our community, it was partly inspired by my Nigerian

experience, my love for what the indigenous people represent in all countries, the first people in all countries. Anyways, I wanted to level set with that and say I'm inspired by it. I love it. And I feel it from your heritage. And so that's absolutely thank you. I appreciate that. Do you? Yeah, I really do. And I think you made a great point in that, you know, you appreciate the first people in certain places. And I think that that's kind of what Americans struggle with is acknowledging that they weren't the first, but we can certainly acknowledge those that were here before us and celebrate the diversity we've created from you know traumas of the past and from strengths of the past you know and so I feel like that's kind of where we find ourselves right now I think um I nod my head you know and uh it's complicated we just did a series with Microsoft on race forward. And so I had conversations with really switched on people about this, you know, about race and, um, equality, equity, you know, all of that. And it's just so

important and complicated, you know? Absolutely. Yeah. And so, but this is materially important for you because you you've kicked ass in life. How about it? Is that fair to say? I'm trying. I'm trying. Okay. So let's keep going. So go back just for a little bit for framing. Second generation Nigerian, a sense of pride, a sense of responsibility in some respects. You've got the American heritage. You've got the Nigerian heritage. You're trying to navigate that second generation experience, which is unique in and of itself. Mom taught you fill in the blank. Oversimplification.

Mom taught me. Education. Dad taught me. Integrity. My three sisters taught me. Ooh. I don't mean to shortchange them. Hey, they're listening. Okay. Um, I'm going to say individuality. America taught me. Opportunity. Nigeria taught me culture. Okay. Culture, opportunity, individualism, no,

individuality, individuality. Yes. And then, um, education. Did I say that? Yes. And then what was, uh, dad? Integrity. There you go. Of all the words you could have chosen, of all the words, you picked some big ones. Okay. All right, good. So then go to grade school. What was money like?

What was the vibe like in the home? What was the zeitgeist in the family? Yeah. You know, I lived a very comfortable, I guess you could say upper middle class life in the suburbs of Houston. We were tight knit, very tight knit family. If I was doing it, the other three were doing it. We did everything together. Or if you want to kind of diversify,

Chanae and I are the oldest and then Chisa Marimar are the youngest and we're separated by four years between the second and the third. So we kind of had partners in crime in everything that we did. And I guess fighting was not encouraged. And by fighting, I mean, you know, quarreling.

So we really leaned heavily on collaboration and delegation. But then also too, especially in, I would even say, go as far as to say in African culture, I guess, you know, respect for elders, I guess you could say, is, is it's very much a thing. And, you know, I, I certainly, I certainly am the oldest and I, I am nurturing by nature, but then also I have, I have responsibilities. And so I was very much kind of oldest slash also third parent. And so a lot of my experience was not only being the guinea pig, but also guiding my sisters. And as a family, you know, they ensured that we were always very involved in the community, in school was huge, getting an education and being active extracurricular wise was huge as well. And then ultimately, in grade school, we started understanding the importance of being well rounded and incorporating things outside of that you're letting your family down when,

when there was something that didn't go according to the standard that you could, or the goal that you guys had for performance, what was your, your response? It was certainly what you just described. It was both? Fear and disappointment. Fear and disappointment. Yeah. Okay. All right. And which one was larger, if you had one?

I think, I mean, I would have to say that a lot of my fear, even in my adulthood, lives in that realm of disappointment being the catalyst. Okay. Yeah. That's part of the pride thing, I think, too. Oh, yeah. Like, it's connected, right? There's like shields are like these beautiful ornate shields that we can carry

around. I'm just using an emblem and analogy are amazing and they can be really heavy. You know, there's something about worn leather and moccasins or, you know, sandals that are just worn. It's like, Hey, this is, it's, I don't have this heavy thing to lift. It's just, why am I mixing metaphors between shoes and shields? They both have S on it. Yeah. So, yeah. So there's something about that that I'm really inspired by.

But again, like I said, I'm inspired by this idea of heritage, you know. Yeah. said, I'm inspired by this idea of heritage, you know? And so now being a third parent, one of the assets is that you build a sense of responsibility early. You build some skills that way. What have been some of the costs of that as an adult now, looking back? You know, I would, I guess I would say that what it was costing me when I was younger was certainly more, I guess, childlike experiences, you know? And in a lot of ways, too, I had to outweigh what was important for leading by example, as opposed to what I necessarily wanted to do, because I was always a role model to my sisters. And I think for a while, it kind of cost me that sister relationship that I am now developing with my sisters. I'm becoming friends with my sisters in adulthood,

which I didn't necessarily do earlier on. The priority was certainly more focused on making sure that I set an example and get them down the right path. Okay. High school, what kind of grades did you get? I got really good grades. But, you know, to be honest, that fear of disappointment makes me feel like I could have gotten better grades. Always, you know, but but sometimes like honestly, Nigerian culture is a joke. It's like if you bring home a 95, then your parents will ask you, well, what happened to the other five points?

You know, I mean, my parents weren't as they weren't as serious about it, but there was that undertone sometimes, you know. OK, I know? Okay. I know the answer, but where'd you go to school, college? I went to Stanford. And so it's a pretty good school. It's not too shabby. Yeah. One of top 10, top five, top two, you might say.

Maybe you would say top one in the world. But, you know, like, so legit, you got into this amazing school and were you talented at ball um in high school um yeah so um initially in grade school I I uh you know I was trying to stay active and uh I sprouted a bit early when it came to like my height but when it came to playing basketball I didn't delve into it until much later than what most people do. Most people are like, I was dribbling before I could walk. And I was 11. So I ended up realizing that I had a knack for athleticism and got into club basketball. And eventually by high school, I was I was a top prospect and I was learning a lot because as a Nigerian family, you're not

raised to believe that there's much of a future in sports, especially for young girls. But then the letter started coming in, a letter from Stanford came in and I was like, oh, wait a second, I can go here for free. And that's all she wrote. Yeah. So you had your eyes set on Stanford? I had my eyesight. The second that I got that letter, my eyesight was certainly set on Stanford, amongst other really great schools as well.

Yeah. I want to sort out. I don't know how to do this. I'm like equally fascinated by the structure that led you to supported you to thrive as well as the internal capabilities that you owned you know it's still owned like it's that and it's not like we can ever separate environment and individual capabilities there's that um venn diagram where the the two meet that's fascinating because it's a bit messy right and so there's a study about like 70 to 80 percent of performance capabilities are attributed to environment that's pretty that's a that's a big

big number right but you know what that 30 we got to maximize the 30 you're going to maximize that 20 like in a big way which you have done so. So let me, if you're okay, let me follow this thread a little bit. Okay. When you are on the court, does it just make sense to you? Or is it like, that's like a kind of a natural intuitiveness? I'm not saying you didn't work hard, but does it just make sense the way the game unfolds, the way your body moves, the prediction of, of how other people might move? Is it like this other capability? Like, listen, I don't know what to describe.

It just makes sense. And that's why I'm the best, what was the best, you know? So describe that. Yeah. No, yeah, absolutely. When I step onto the court or when I'm training, I mean, it's like breathing in a lot of ways. It's like walking in a lot of ways. You don't think about it, but you're doing it. And you know that you doing it feels good and it feels natural um but it didn't always start that way and I say that when I refer to basketball itself but using my body has always felt natural um and I feel so fortunate to have been able to tap into um channeling that in I guess you could say in an artistic way through basketball.

But I've never heard anyone ask me the question like that. And now that I think about it, you know, there's moments when I'm playing or training that, you know, it feels like second nature. And then the moments that I really, really love are those moments when you're working on getting better and those small little lapses of mistakes over and over again. And then eventually you step on the court one day and it doesn't happen. And you kind of, it's almost as though like you, you can tap into building that muscle memory, feeling that muscle memory coming in is probably my sweet spot. And it's very subtle. It's very, very subtle. But it feels so natural to me and it feels good. What are you, of all the things that you could do because you've got um big brain dynamic body you know like you could express on the basketball court expressed in

business expressed in living rooms wherever you wanted to go i imagine um you'll find success of all the things that you could do wanted to to do, what is the magic that you're looking for? The magic that I look for, I don't want to generalize it really, but it's just this feeling of greatness. That's the only really, that's the real word I guess resilience shall I say that um that I can feel in everything that I do not just when I'm playing this idea of or this aura or this energy of resilience but but more specifically contagion. I want it to feel contagious, whether it's coming to me or going to someone else. And I guess I really tap into that

when I tap into like my true intentions and what I'm doing. You know, I try to do things incredibly mindfully. And that started with me playing and me understanding like, how simple can I really make this so that it almost feels as though there's only one synapse, if not at all. And that resilience is what I often go back to. The resilience is certainly my magic. And knowing that I'm equipped for whatever that resilience in me is prepared for is certainly the magic that I feel.

That I feel that I look for, that I feel that I want to live in, that I feel that I want to exude. Pull on that thread. I don't want to lead any of this, but I'm like, it's rich. So how do you define resilience? And then I'm going to go back

to the way I hear what you're saying. And then let's see if we can harden it. How are you defining resilience as you're using it? I think it comes in so many different ways, but you know, in my experience, I think resilience, when it, when, when you're thinking about it at, when I think about at my core, I think it has a lot to do with me knowing that I am my only competition and knowing how great I feel doing something or just in a moment and knowing that that's not the end. Like that's not as far as the greatness can go. Tapping into kind of this archive of greatness and resilience that allows me to take it just one centimeter more.

And then outwardly, I would definitely have to say that I've experienced that magic from other people that have shown me my resilience in places that I didn't think that I, it existed. And me stepping in, I don't want to say blindly, but walking into an open door that in which I don't know what's on the other side, with confidence and with strength, because others believed me to be able to do so is kind of where I find that magic as well from the outside. That's where I find that magic as well from the outside. That's where I that's that's really the only type of outward motivation that I have. Everything else really comes internally for me.

But I've had so many instances in my life in which I wasn't thinking big enough for myself. But someone brought to me a bigger picture that I now stepped into and the magic just kind of happened. Yeah. It's really cool. Cause when you're describing what you're looking for, you know, and the magic here, here's how I start to hear things for you is you chose the word resilience and greatness. And you talked about energy flow from within the contagious, which is a really cool framing. You know, it's like, Hey, if I'm switched on, I want my others

to feel switched on, you know, and when they're switched on, I want to be porous enough to feel that too. And so call it group flow, call it something else that might be cool, but there's a, there is a science that we can snap to. And then you chose, but you're choosing, you chose the word resilience. So here's how I hear that is resilience typically means bouncing back or bouncing forward, adjusting, pivoting to an uncomfortable, hard, difficult challenge. And so when I heard you say that, I was like, oh, so this, here's the, the opposite. I mean, I'm chasing imposing my will. I'm chasing, or magic for me is when I'm dominant or when I am at my best and no one can touch me. You didn't use those frames. You're talking about connectivity. And then I'm getting a sense of this

one centimeter further, this right on the edge of my abilities, adjusting, pivoting, because I don't know how it's unfolding, but I'm in that state of sorting it out. And so when I hear it, I go, oh, same thing for me. It's about the unlock. Yes. Unlock, unlock, unlock, unlock. Oh, my goodness. Like wow what just this is it i'm and as soon as i get overwhelmed with like watching and seeing it i'm like pulled right out of it so are you probably but is it the unlock yeah fair yeah i would call the unlock kind of breaking open

that's kind of what that's how i kind of frame it in my mind like that unlock is certainly breaking open and um sometimes you break open with an explosion sometimes it's a little crack but once you do whatever's inside comes out as it should you know and you'll be prepared for it do you have a story that you can share or an experience that you had where somebody saw something in you that was cracked open, something bigger than what you thought was possible? Sure. I have two stories, but I'll share with you the first story. So obviously, I'm at Stanford and I'm competing at a high level. Um, I get into Stanford and I realized that, you know, this is where I belong. Um, by no means is it established in any way or assumed that I'm about to be a superstar

at Stanford, but you know, me, me coming there was a big deal for the organization. And as I incrementally level up on the court, I end up getting to play with my sister. And she's two years my junior. So I'm a junior. She's a freshman. And my junior year when she comes in, I mean, playing with her is like playing with three teammates, not four. You know, she's an extension of me. And we, we certainly, we, we tap into this competitive nature and the success, this chemistry that we haven't, we had before, but we, we just hadn't really experienced how great the team could be. And by the time I become a senior, you know, my name is out there. And Chanae is, she's kind of a bit my opposite. She's certainly more vivacious upon meeting her.

And I have a really amazing game. My senior year at home at Stanford versus Tennessee, I finished with, I believe it was 38 or 40 points and conversations leading up into that, you know, I'd always said, Oh, you know, I don't know. I'm going to play professionally. This is, this is like on the, on the end of what is like kind of like preseason and, you know, the, the regular season starts in January and the draft is in April and Chanae just says to me she's you know like you you just had a 40-point game against Tennessee at home on TV

you don't need to go and try and become a doctor you're about to be the first round draft pick and when she said that it was the first time I had heard it and actually believed it and from that moment on uh I tapped into this space when I was playing that felt so free um and when I'm having fun on the court that's the freest that I feel. And that year was so much fun. And I ended up just kind of playing out of, I guess I always say I tap into Neckinator. That's like my alter ego. And so Neckinator came out that season. And I finished with, I guess, kind of no questions about whether I would be the first draft pick of that season.

And here I am now. First draft pick overall. There is some real gifts that come with it. And there's some challenges that come with that. So before we get to that double-edged sword there, what gave you I'm not sure what unlocked the freedom? Was it you got to settle into what I would consider maybe not the highest thought, but settle into this thing like, oh, I am good, or oh, it's gonna work out or oh, they think I'm good. And it's and that's great. Like, what did you settle into?

So, you know, like the breaking open or the unlock usually comes by way of, you know, someone who believes in me and makes it known to me. And what does that do? And what does that do for you? So that that's the seed. That's essentially the seed. And this happens time and time again, for me in my life, that's the seed. And once that seed and this happens time and time again for me in my life that's the seed and once that seed is planted you know the next morning I'll look at my mirror I'll be like you know what I am the shit you know and and um I think I think there's a there's this weird balance in my mind of being or having too much humility. I think in a lot of ways, having too much humility oftentimes can almost appear as though it's another form of narcissism because you're

deflecting so much. And I'm not, by no means am I using this clinically. This is just my own interpretation. But you're actively deflecting so much that now you are now aware that people are trying to instill in you that magic and you're deflecting from it. And so if you're actively doing that, there's a level of awareness that you're rejecting. And also there's a level of awareness that you're inviting. And it's an imbalance and so I've tried to maintain that balance and the seed that's planted by others allows me to kind of jump into that space of hey you're valuable you're here for a reason you're equipped for this just show up is that what it sounds like when you're in your head and you feel strong yeah yeah well yeah when i when i'm in my head it's very it's certainly

more informal it's more like yes you can do hey that sounds like me too that's exactly what it sounds like i go ahead i see this oh that is so funny you know what's funny about that is like i was going to go down the path like humility and um arrogance and confidence and narcissism like a gender thing you know like it's different there's a gender thing that that plays in here as well and then i was going to say oh maybe there's we can play on the nigerian side but then you just hit the male-female thing here pretty... I don't sound like that in my head, right? There's no chance. And I could never begin to say, hey, you should sound like this. The word should is a dirty word for me. But the idea like you, exactly your vibe, that in and of itself is evidence of

introspective work. That is the psychological game inside the game. It's like, hey, do you know how to take care of yourself? Yeah. Do you know how to run to the edge and be okay there too? Exactly. Yeah. And do you know how to pick yourself up and you know did they determine who you are or can you actually co-pilot this thing with the majority i say co-pilot because we're not in it alone we're all connected in some respect either we're dropping seeds some people drop those seeds or weeds some people those seeds are beautiful flowers, you know, knowing which ones to water and knowing how to drop other seeds that flourish in others is a big part of building this community, a flourishing community, I would say. So let's talk about the running to the edge piece. Sure. for you when you are getting to the edges of your capacity where it's like you're right in that spot

where it's like um i'm starting to feel pressure and pressure by definition for me is like i need to think or do something faster more skillfully than i think i'm capable of and it feels like the walls are kind of closing in and so when you're in that place, how do you unlock there? And how do you sometimes just hold on? And how do you manage those experiences? Sure. Or are you just so good, Nika, that you don't have that? No, no, no, no, no, no.

First round draft pick, you know, there's not a pass okay no i wish actually i don't because i love i love the edge and the challenges that that come with it um actually i think that's the i think that that's the biggest frame either you love it or you don't and if you don't love it it's freaking hard now yeah yeah If you fight it, it's harder. You know, the edge is already, the edge is already tough. So if you fight it, I really believe that you're kind of contributing to that energy. The edge for me, I've learned, especially in the last few years in my career and in my life, the edge for me is an indication of a pause. And I've, I've never gone wrong when I've paused when I'm at the edge, because I'm the type of person that does, does,

does execute, execute, execute. Like that's how I am. Um, and the edge is no indication of me experiencing, I guess that's that, that extra of needing to, it's certainly more of a scale back, take a breather, take a break, sit, relax, chill out, let it settle. And that's what the edge is for me and so understanding when I've reached that point which I have especially in the last few years fighting it has only pushed me over a cliff rather rather into I guess, flowing waters over the cliff that push me past the edge. I'm not afraid to go past the edge. It's about whether it's a canyon or an ocean. So yeah. What speaks louder to you, your body or your mind, your thoughts or your emotions? I guess the real question is, what do I listen listen to more because they're both pretty loud

but it's loud it's loud in there for you well i mean i guess like i don't want to say loud but they're both very um forward um but the the body for me the body for me um my intuition is real um and the body i i experience my body communicating to me in so many different ways okay what what are you afraid of because i'm getting this bold aware skilled, skilled, intelligent, sassy, fun. Where are the fears, the corners that are difficult to examine? What's the hard part for you? So if I'm speaking for myself, which I always am, but you know, in how I, I've been raised, you know, you're very much a part of a, of a greater whole, but on an individual level,

I've always feared not living a life that I chose for myself. Okay. Hold on. I got paused. Not living a life okay this goes back to the double-edged sword of heritage and pride and strong family yes okay and when you say that do you feel it when you just said it yeah i mean i don't feel as though that's what I'm living. So keeping that in mind is something that kind of serves as a reminder of what are your foundations by your family and on your own? And how do you move? How do you walk with that? So how did you pass through that rite of passage?

I think the passage is my whole life, to be very honest. I don't think that I ever stopped passing through it. And I think the only way that I've seen real progress in that is standing in my truth and standing in who I am for anybody, for my family, for my friends, my teammates, anywhere, and not compromising myself for other while also maintaining the integrity, the culture, and the foundation by which I really hold dear to how my life can be lived. So I want to give you a framework that has been important for me and then ask you to fill in a blank maybe. So here's the framework from clarity to conviction.

So clarity is the clarity of my first principles, your first principles, the guiding principles that are present to be able to shape your thoughts, your words, and your actions to have the alignment of that is really kind of the driver for me. So from clarity of first principles to being about it, which is the conviction part, being about it in environments that is for whatever reasons hard to be about it it's one thing for you and i to have a great conversation over a cup of tea or glass of wine it's all easy great these are my first principles you know and then when there's something on the line values are not really yours until you have to pay for them until you have to you know cash in a little skin or money or something,

like there's got to be something on the line to say, no, no, look, I actually have sacrificed or I have expressed pain or suffering for the virtue. Right. Okay. Now in between, what allows us to go from clarity is introspection, self-discovery. What allows us to get to conviction are mental skills. So again, I want to keep it blank and let your imagination go wherever you want to go. What are some big, core, key mental skills that you could point to to say, I've had to use these to be about it in prickly, scratchy, consequential environments. Wow. This is an amazing framework. So I guess we're on the spectrum side of the conviction, right? Yeah. What are the that you, you can point to that have been important on your journey to be about it when it's hard, when at one point you might've retreated and been small and a lower version or, you know,

fill in the blanks. Sure. I mean, one of the mental skills that I practice every day is certainly quieting my mind. I don't know if anyone has ever truly mastered it because we're all human beings, but practice makes practice know I think that every opportunity that I have to quiet my mind is a learning opportunity and it's not the last one um and it's not the worst one it's not the best one it's always something that uh I know it's going to have to be worked on and it's something that I have to hone constantly quieting my mind for sure. But then also, I'm not sure this is like really a mental skill, but resourcefulness is something that I'm incredibly keen on. I have a knack for it almost, almost to the point where you would think that I'm an engineer major you know but resourcefulness is something that I use all the time whether it's structuring my day researching things that can

make my life or other people's lives easier engaging in conversations that contribute to optimizing all aspects of the cause, just being resourceful for sure. And then I was speaking with my dad about this this morning. One thing that is programmed in me is discipline. It's discipline. And i think that there's so many mental skills that come with discipline um but that discipline is something that really has formed who i am today that's cool if i could ask you to score yourself like let's do a discipline of quality useful quality, useful, directionally purposeful thoughts. If we oversimplify it, we say, listen, at the end of the day, my thoughts are pretty shitty. Or, you know what? They're pretty on point. And on point not towards being the number one in the world, but being

animated in the way that i want to live my virtues okay so let's go like shitty would be self-deprecating critical judgmental of self and others you know finding the flaws if you will and on the other side is like ah i found the good, you know, and I, I, I was in a lot, a live and by some thinking, you know, some, some, some thoughts. So on that ledger, if you were to give yourself a score, what would it be? Out of 10? Sure. I went, I was thinking a hundred, but it doesn't matter. I was given more variance. Like, yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't matter. Really the same. Right. Oh, 100. It doesn't matter. I was given more variance. It doesn't matter, really.

The same. Right. I'd probably have to say that I'm probably at a nine. Damn. Yeah, that's dope. So because I think, let's see if I can bridge a couple gaps. Your first thing that you went to, the mental skills to live with deeper conviction to be present is what that means to be to meet the demands of the moment that's my promise actually to my community to help people live in the present so much that they can

meet the demands of their moment whatever that is i'll tell you what like it's it it's hard right now for, for, for so many, you know? And so that's my, that, that, that's my promise for definitely in the next decade. But I, the first place that you went to Nika was like awareness of my mind to quiet it down. Okay. So I think that that's how those two are related because you are aware and you're making informed decisions because you can see

and feel your thoughts. Okay. What is your practice to quiet your mind? I mean, on a daily, I guess to set the foundation, I certainly meditate and I journal as well. I think a lot of times when I'm able to write things down, it gets those thoughts out. But throughout my day, recognizing that the voice in my head is not me, rather I'm the listener of that voice is something that I constantly remind myself of. Oh, you're just listening. So you can always just shut them up, you know? And it sounds simple, but it's incredibly hard. We all know this. Well, that's why it's practice. That's why it takes practice.

Exactly. So just doing that. So you're in that frame, it's a mindfulness practice of awareness. So you're an observer without judgment critique, and you can decide at some point whether you want to entertain it or not yeah absolutely and then and then in in those mindful and intentional moments i i i literally attend to what's i think about what what am i doing right now whatever this voice is telling me is that happening right now no and so it brings me kind of to a space of uh you know gratitude and and of course um i guess focus that helps me make small moments big moments what does that mean um we think about we think about the big picture but we don't think about the small strokes. And each small stroke, it requires focus.

But if we're thinking about the big picture the whole time that we're stroking, what is that picture going to look like? So when you say deep focus, to be aware of the small choices, the small moments to make it a big moment. Initially, I want to go, wait a minute, because I've got another framework, which is there's no such thing as a big moment. There's another moment. And I'll leave it to ESPN or Fox Sports to tell people if it's big or not. That's all hype, fun, whatever. It's just another moment. And the challenge is, Nika, can you be in that moment?

Can I be in that moment? So it's another moment, another opportunity. So do you see moments as big or do you see them as another moment? And you and I don't have to agree by any means. Sure. That's what I love this. How do you see it? Moments are what you make them um for me personally

when you deem moments small then i feel as though it kind of implies lesser importance. So I try to make every moment a big moment, however small or innocuous it is. I love that. And the way I say it is that this moment is all we have. So there is no big moment, small moment. It's the only moment. And by definition,

that means it's the biggest moment that you have. It's just this one, whether we're in this conversation or there's 20,000 people screaming, and what are they screaming? Okay. All right. Listen, I, I, I love where we're going. I love your, I could sit and speak with you for a long time. And I really like how you use your mind. And I'd love for you to answer this. Being human means.

Hmm. Experiencing. Being well means well-being. Being well means. I guess if I can make this like a sentence, being well means loving yourself first. It all comes down to? Respect. A fork in the road for me was? Believing in myself or

allowing others to do it. Suffering comes from? Living. Suffering is not always bad. My suffering is? Beautiful. You've done some work.

Oh, gosh. You've done some work. Have you sat with a psychologist or people of wisdom? Or where have you done your work? like a psychologist or people of wisdom or where have you done your work? You're not sneaking that stuff by me. How about that? Where have you done your work? I think I honestly, with my dad, I get it a lot from my dad. He is,

he's a discoverer. And I get a lot of it from him. Is he a risk taker as well? Um, he has risky tendencies. Okay. Okay. So how about this? Can I play forward something that how I'm experiencing you you let's do it okay open introverted you're an internal processor you think and feel and then you when you say something it's probably pretty true to you um wave me off if i'm wrong here um conscientious you care not very neurotic you don't come from a nervous, neurotic place. You're not so willing to agree, but you'll go with the flow until you just are like, this is stupid. I think that you're intellectually competitive, but it's got to get to a place where

you're like, again, what are we doing here? Positive to self and others, way more than negative and critical of others. High self-esteem. You're able to get the big picture and also narrow down to the details. Sometimes what drives you nuts is when you're trying to focus on the details, but it pulls you apart. Distractions pull you out. Whatever those things might be that drives you a little batty. You are mission-minded, purpose-driven. You have incredible responsibility that you carry with you. And that sometimes has been the cost of innocence at a young age. And so the beauty that you're looking for is connections with others, whether it starts with performance aspects, but really what you're looking for is non-performative ways to be connected to others

and to see and be seen and to create an environment where people feel safe and they belong. How about it? Can you say that again so I can write it all down? You just gave me my manifesto. Manifesto. All right. Well, it is recorded. So wave me off wherever we're wrong here.

Where are we wrong on that? I'll say risk taker. I can include the risk taking. You have a tolerance for risk taking, but not in an egregious way. Like you think before you jump. There's not an impulsivity issue but you like the edge and so you'll get to it. Wave me off wherever I was wrong there.

You see I'm not waving. No, you're not waving. All right, listen, what a treat. I want to say thank you. If you could speak right into the heart or the mind of a woman listening. Can you speak to her? Sure. You know, I would really just like to tell you that your value needs not to be proven. And there's others that can help you learn that and realize that and tap into that.

You don't need to give love to receive love. And you're a badass. I edited the end of that. You did? Okay. Is that effing? Are you dropping an F-bomb in there? No? Leave it up for the imagination.

All right. And if you could speak right to a transgender. You love yourself. And that's really all you need. And to prove that love that you should receive is not necessary. Although the world may not understand, it's important to understand that the love starts within. Feeling all lovey-dovey right now.

Yeah, it's good. Yeah. And, you know, I'll tell you why I asked that, because I want to go male-female, and then I'm like, wait, hold on. You know, there's a whole other section of gender identity that i typically don't include and um and it's almost a shorthand it's not from um not wanting to but it's like that's why i did that you know it's like okay and and then uh and then let's like if you speak to a man there's a there to a man,

there's a, there's a man listening right now that needs to hear you. What do you say? Listen. I kind of built that up you did this drama was awesome you know and okay you got me you know like yeah i see why you would say that too i see exactly hold on were you speaking to me you know the joke in sport right is like the coach comes in into a locker room of men and says son of a you know like i told you to freaking pass the ball and he's talking to the girl i told you to pass the ball like what are you doing out there freaking move the rock and then all the guys go to the locker room they're like shit i don't know who he's talking to you know and then

you go into like get me the rock that's right move it and get it my way and then you the same coach goes into a women's locker room you know where i'm going with this right and the same thing what do you i told you we gotta fucking move the rock like let's get that thing rolling and then all the women go back to their locker room and they go jeez i really gotta pass more you know right he's speaking to me you know it's a bad joke but you know no but really yeah there's a different way like men and women probably do listen very differently i know we played in different sandboxes and um it creates some big problems yeah it does but yeah hey we're equipped to we're equipped to solve these things. Get on the edge.

On the edge. Okay. Hey, listen, thank you. I appreciate you. And if there's anything I can do to support your journey, I'm going to point people to where they can find you, where they can follow in your adventure. Where's that right place?

Sure. So, I mean, if you want to find me, you can obviously find me on Instagram. Just type in Nneka Ogwumike. Spelt? Oh, yes. N-N? Yes. E-K-A. That's my first name. And then my last name is O-G-W-U-M-I-K-E. I'm also on Twitter when you type in the same thing.

But most notably, if you're looking or if you're not, and you just want to discover more about some amazing women, go to WNBA.com. How about it? Look at you as the representative, you know, look, that's awesome. Yeah. So listen, again, I've really appreciated your time. Thank you. If there's anything I can do to support what you're doing, I want to encourage people to go follow and check into the WNBA. Check into your social handles to follow individually what you're doing.

And I appreciate you. Thank you, Michael. It was a pleasure. Okay. And I just want to say thanks to Cassidy Lichman for putting us together. This is awesome. Yes. Thank you, Cass. I had the pleasure of playing basketball alongside her when she was playing volleyball at Stanford. And I, I also had the opportunity to participate in path which is a really great program that she has that is really getting a lot of these important conversations, much of what we discussed today, Michael, into kind of the grassroots level.

And so thanks for connecting us, Cass. This has been amazing. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the

support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com slash newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously. And the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com slash sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same.

So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support,

which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.