Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Curiosity is at the Center of Personal Growth | Performance Expert, Per Lundstam

Episode Date: May 26, 2021

This week’s conversation is with Per Lundstam, the Director of Alpine Sport Science for the US. Ski & Snowboard team.He rejoined the organization after an 11-year stint with Red Bull, where he served as theDirector of Performance, supporting athletes in their pursuit of improving athletic performance as well as building a platform for optimization within sport sciences.Prior to Red Bull, Per worked with U.S. Ski & Snowboard from 1994 to 2010 as Head Strength Coach, working with the likes of Olympic champions Tommy Moe, Bode Miller, Ted Ligety, Lindsey Vonn, and Julia Mancuso.I’ve had the pleasure of knowing Per as both a colleague at Red Bull and as a dear friend… When it comes to high performance, Per is one the most respected people in the field.We discuss how to get the most out of individuals and teams - both inside and outside the world of sport._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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All right, welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. By trade and training, I am a sport and performance psychologist. And the whole idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who are flat out committed to both their craft and their inner life, those who are on the path of mastery, so that we can better understand what it is that they're searching for, their psychological framework, which is really how do they make sense of themselves and the world around them. And we also want to dig to understand the mental skills that they've used to build and refine their craft. And if you want to learn more about how you can train your mind, this is just a quick little reminder to check out the online course that I built with the head coach of the Seattle

Seahawks, Pete Carroll. And literally, we're going to teach you how to train your mind just like world-class athletes and performers across the planet do. And so you can punch over to findingmastery.net forward slash course to check that out. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort.

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is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now, this week's conversation is with a legend. In the very small arena of high performance when it comes to athletics and arts, you know this man's name. And I am honored to call him a dear friend. So this is Per Lundstam, and he is the director of the Alpine Sports Science for the U.S. Ski and Snowboard team. And prior to that, he spent 11 years with Red Bull, where he served

as the director of performance, supporting athletes in their pursuit of improving athletic performance and human potential in some cases, as well as building a platform for optimization within sports sciences. And then prior to Red Bull, Pair worked with the U.S. ski and snowboard team from 1994 to 2010 as the head strength coach, working with the likes of Olympic champions like Tommy Moe and Bodie Miller, Ted Ligety, Lindsey Vonn. And I've had the pleasure of knowing Per both as a colleague at Red Bull and just as a friend, somebody that I trust and I go to for sage advice and to get to the right questions, to get to some answers that I hope that neither of us could have gotten to alone. And so I love this man's soul. I love his mind. I love what he stands for. I'm so excited

to introduce you to him. And when it comes to high performance, he is one of the most respected in the field. So we dive in and we roll up our sleeves about, you know, how do we help support the brightest to help them, you know, really work at an accelerated clip to really get the most out of their potential, both inside and outside the world of sport. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with a flat-out legend, Per Lundsten. Per, how are you? Yeah, good, Mike.

Really good here to be with you today, and I'm honored to be on your podcast here. I mean, you've had an amazing amount of people, incredible people on your podcast. So I feel such high regard for their mind and their intellect and their curiosity and how they approach the world. And at the same time, just a deep appreciation for a sense of safety. And so our friendship has been both of those, which is there's a deep regard I have for how you organize your inner life, the way that you use your mind and the way you use your heart and also just the safety of being able to explore. And so maybe we can take a moment and just do a flyover for if there was chapter headings to the book of Per Lundsten, you know, how many chapters are we talking about that you've had? And like, what would be some of the chapter headings

going all the way back to like Little Per in Sweden? Like how, how do, how do we do that? Exactly. I actually don't think there's too many, right? It seems like I've been in each chapter for quite a while, especially in the later part of my life. I've been working at the same place for a long time. So those chapters kind of create long periods of time and a big part of my life, I guess, in each of those chapters. But growing up in life, I guess, in each of those chapters. But yeah, growing up in Sweden, I guess, you know, it's probably athletics, right?

And driving, trying to pursue my own success in sports and so being alpine skiing. But I quickly probably switched over or understood that uh i i'm more of a coach and a support person and trying to drive my own success so that was actually in a struggle i had for a long time and especially the last five six years i was competing myself and then so so what is that yeah that's probably like a title like confusion I guess or or where I wanted to drive my my own life and where I who I was and where I had impact and and and what that should look like and then I I did that step and then I was coaching in Sweden for um for their national team for four years back in the 90s, early 90s.

I was really fortunate to get a position with the US ski team in the middle of the 90s. And got to come into the program as a health coach and coaching there for a little bit. And then, you know, it kind of took shape and took form. And I was super fortunate enough to have a really good platform to work from with the USP team and then grow with the program and take on more and more responsibilities. And then kind of grew and saw more where I needed to go in life and, and in my passion with that. And then, uh, I just recently,

I just closed up my chapter with Red Bull in their performance program. I've been there for the last 11 years or so. So, um, yeah. Just knowing you, you live by your set of high principles and high standards. And if it doesn't work anymore for you, it doesn't work anymore. And so that's kind of how transitions happen. And I think that you have this unique ability to see something that's inspiring. And when you're ready to move into that space, whatever the next transition is. Now, that being said, I want to go back. I don't want to lose track of this

really important moment in your life where the confusion piece. And so from an athlete invested in you being you and you being your best, um, and, uh-oh, I'm not actually able to do that anymore. And so actually, maybe I have it wrong. Maybe this confusion thing was, what was your ambition? Was it how old were you and were you trying to be the best or were you trying to be your best? Exactly. No, it's really interesting, you know, and I've reflected on that quite a bit myself and going back to that stage in life. You know, I must have been, you know, later teens, early 20s, right, when this started to kind of occur to me.

And it was interesting. My mom saw it way, way before I did. You know, she said even when I was in the midst of it, you know, my own career and, and, you know, I had decided to be the best skier in the world, you know, and, and like many, many other kids and athletes. Right. So, so, you know, I was pushing hard. I was training my guts out and, and I was really driven and I was on a very clear path. And my mom, you know, she, she just said it here and there, you know, she said, no, you should actually be a coach, I think, or support other people, you know?

And so she saw it probably five, six years before I did, you know, and but, but, but then yeah, five, six years went by. So let's say I was probably around 20 or so. And I was really interested in other people's training and and at that point in time I had a lot of experience in programming and testing and training because that was a big part of my passion and maybe something that actually pulled myself out of of my own career and and I started to help other athletes around me. And, um, you know, it started very benign, I guess, when, you know, they asking me questions about the training and asking me questions about

preparation or technical things around the sport. And, and, um, I gave them my opinion and, and it kind of just grew more and more people were looking at, um, some help and then some programming and and I got really invested in other people what was the crisis for you was it was it letting go of an identity or was it not knowing the new skill that you wanted to build what was the mini crisis or was it a full-blown crisis? Yeah, exactly. Now, I think it was this confusion, I guess, that I had to tell myself, stay on track. I mean, why are you concerned about your basically competitors at that point

in time? Why are you not staying on track and pursuing your own success and your own career and path in getting better as an athlete yourself? And so I had that internal kind of struggle all the time. And it just became more and more clear that, no, actually, I should probably change over. I feel more passionate about the other athletes than myself almost, you know, and it kind of just grew into that, I think, and then kind of was more and more apparent as, as I got older.

It was a transition and it was transition over a long period of time, I think. And, but it just grew stronger and stronger, right. And more clear, I guess. So then, you know, through this period of time, I actually was training and leading training with, with our other athletes. were joining me and we're doing our thing. And then at some point that they, they got really successful and then they wanted me actually to support them in their endeavor. So, so that kind of, yeah, it was almost a natural transition for me. So the Swedish program, the it's called the Swedish Ski Federation, is that right?

Correct. So where were you as a young kid? Where was your ranking? Were you in the top 25, top 10, top five? Probably in Sweden, yeah, something like that. I had a few indications or a few criterias that I met that was probably around 10, 15 or so in the nation in different disciplines. And so Sweden was very, very strong in ski racing at that point in time. And, yeah, so it was going pretty well, but not good enough. And I think I was probably off a little bit on my own mindset, I guess, that I needed to move forward in any cost and on anybody's cost and all those things. It kind of got softer and softer as I grew up.

And then it seemed like this was the path that I was supposed to be on. And people are supporting that path. And yeah, it took more and more shape and actually created a strategy around it. And this is one of the reasons I wanted to have this conversation with you is because for your whole life, you have been on the path, whether you would call it or not, the path of mastery. Maybe just let me call it, okay? Let me call it, yeah.

And it really is this progressive, accelerated commitment to growth with an authentic curiosity for how do we squeeze and understand marginal gains and i don't mean that in like an obtuse way but just like how do we how do we really understand how to help the best become even better which is hard like for for it's hard isn't it it's very very hard yes absolutely yeah and it would be easier to help a junior high kid who really wants to do a lot of work or high school athlete who really wants to put in the work to help that person get faster than helping usain bolt get faster as just an example exactly no you're completely right. exploratory pursuits. And it was an integration of lifestyle. It was not like this thing that I do later just for rewards. It was the true pursuit of being able to live a certain way.

And that way is embodied by exploring. And so one of the second reasons I'm really excited to have you on this conversation is say, okay, what are some of the principles that you found to be true? Whether it's with USSA, United States Skiing and Snowboarding Association these stops along the way of world-class cultures, world-class athletes, both in skiing and then obviously across all of the action sports. So what are some principles? What are some ideas that you hold to be important? I'm not asking for answers at this point. We'll get to that later. But what are some of the principles that you're like, man, I'm still trying to figure out A, B, and C, and I'm fascinated by, you know, D, E, and F. Yeah, exactly. I think that's a great question. And obviously that is probably, you know, one of the million dollar questions that we are driving and the curiosity around it and what drives us forward, you know, this kind of unknown, but we always trying to,

to pursue answers in that. And, and I think, you know, one thing that's really, really interesting that, that I've kind of sensed lately is that we, we don't have enough respect for this inherent ability for the human to develop almost unlimitedly, right? So we're trying to create technologies, we're trying to create strategies, and a lot of potentially limiting factors around the human. You know, we don't attribute enough respect to that. The human internal systems, adaptive systems, regulatory systems are incredible, right?

So if we put an athlete in the right environment or a human being in the right environment, they have so much ability to adjust and grow and develop skills in that particular environment. And so, you know, we always, as practitioners and sport science people, coaches, trying to create the knowledge, the steps, and the pathways for a human being to get better. But if we could instead create the environment and rely on this amazing tool we have as the human body and the plasticity and the abilities to adapt, I think that that's the real crux, right? It's to create the environment for the athlete to flourish. And it's not only knowledge that creates the athlete to improve. It's the environment.

It's the energy around the athlete to improve. It's the environment, it's the energy around the athlete. And just as humans, you know, we have this amazing ability to adapt to it, right? So I think a lot of times we miss the boat a little bit as a system or a practitioner or coach, whatever it is, to create the right environment and then rely on the environment, you know, to kind of develop the athlete. Many times when we're trying to create the pathway or the strategy, I think we limit that inherent ability or the human ability to flourish and really accelerate the learning and adaptation. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday.

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and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Okay, so when you say environment, I think you're calling on two things. You're calling on the culture slash the relationships. So for me, culture is the artifact of relationships. So whatever the relationships are, the shared agreements, the shared values, the quality and depth, the agreements that we make. And that's, for me, that's what culture is. And then the other part of environment, and wave me off if I'm not hearing this correctly, the other part of environment is literally the environment, the physical, tangible hardship

that can come from Mother Nature, and also the restoration processes that also can come from mother nature and also the restoration processes that also can come from other nature right so that talk that toggling between acute stressors and proper recovery mechanisms so are you talking about environment in two ways like the people and the physical environment yeah Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think what I've seen, even if it's individual sports, the environment is very important. And how do you create the environment is really interesting to me, right? And for sure, it is the human environment that's so important with energy and safety, reencouragement in the right way, critical feedback and so forth.

But then, like you say, also the actually signaling to your neurological system is an environment as well, right? So, which is a process that that happens in in such an amazing way and yeah we can just imagine how many processes are happening in a a um training session or in a movement and and uh so forth and all the adaptive abilities to that is fascinating. Okay. So let's make it simple and talk about an individual athlete for just a moment, and then we'll extrapolate to a team environment and maybe even get into family and or business in a moment.

But so nobody does it alone, right? So even individual athletes are part of a team. Exactly. Exactly. So nobody does it alone, right? So even individual athletes are part of a team. Exactly. Exactly. They are the ones responsible for the execution, but nobody does it alone. So if we think. They want to be the best, but they say that they want to be their best. You get the trap that I'm setting up here. And in doing so, they hide the anxiousness that comes with this need for approval that they're really searching for, which is I want to be on top of the podium to know that I matter. I put so much into this thing.

I just need to know that what I've done isn't for not. And there's some underneath psychology from an early age about self-worth and value that they're using performance standards to kind of make sense of that this does this sound unfamiliar to you in any way no no that makes sense okay so so how would you create an environment and let's say this person is highly skilled so they're already you know top five in the world. Yeah, exactly. So I think I've seen multiple examples in that space and working with top athletes, you know, top world five rankings like you're talking about. It is so interesting to see some of the athletes who can create an environment for further improvements of performance performance and other athletes that actually kind of limit themselves in this space right and and and in that in that discussion I've seen athletes who can really improve the coaches, the support staff, and other people around themselves by being a warm,

open, and encouraging person. They actually, even if they are not 100% on board with the staff or with a coach, they open the dialogue so they can talk in a very free and open environment. And with that environment, they actually let the coach work at their best, right? So the coach is actually a support person that are working at their best and therefore are elevating the whole environment, even for the egocentric athlete in the middle right uh versus other athletes i've seen are not creating good dialogues are not um warm and accepting of coaches and their feedback and

so forth and what happens is that the the coaches and the environment around the athletes are actually getting suppressed. They're getting worried, right? Because the athlete is in the discussions and into the environment, they're actually suppressing the coaches and the staff around them. So they're not even working at their 100%. So they're actually getting worse. So they're getting feedback that's not at the coaches 100% versus the other athlete who invites the coaches, invite the support staff, create an environment that's actually more progressive

and more beneficial to the athlete themselves. So it's a really interesting dynamic what the athlete looks at it, you know, and how they invite the surrounding support staff to improve even further. How do we get the right variables in place, right? Because there are so many people that have to perform in exact environments and there are real consequences,

sometimes life and limb, sometimes financial, sometimes career. There's some exact environments that people need to operate in. And how do we create the right standards of excellence, consistency, togetherness, curiosity, as well as, you know, deal with the anxiousness that comes with, naturally should and does come with a real concern if it doesn't work out. So how do you help? So I'm just getting right into the psychology of stuff um but from your perspective how would you help those types of relationships and environments no i mean you're hitting it on on the head here it's such an interesting topic and interesting discussion point. I can probably start with referencing what I've seen

and been experiencing myself is when you have certain people in a team that can create a really good environment around themselves. You see that being adapted by more and more people in the team, right? It becomes a culture, I guess. And it becomes the behavior patterns. And you start to feel healthy competition within the group, but very open and straight communication. But people don't get offended by it. They don't take it as criticism

that's going to push you down, right? They actually embrace it. And I don't know how you create those people in the team, but I've seen it when we have people like that, it creates an environment that's not just fun and warm and friendly, but it actually improves the lines of communication. So people are more comfortable being straight and giving criticism, but it's received in

a positive way. And it's received as a criticism that that's supposed to help me right and and uh it's so powerful when you get to that place where there's a healthy competition between athletes but it's it's uh the the underlying mechanism or or the underlying mechanism or the underlying current is that, no, we're going somewhere. We're together on this and we're driving forward. I don't know how to get athletes or coaches to this environment, it really becomes an amazing energy. When was the last time or recent time or favorable time in your mind

that you think of when you're like, this athlete, this team definitely had it? Is there one that comes to mind that you think of when you're like this athlete this team definitely had it is there one that comes to mind for you yeah no absolutely you know i mean i think i'm i'm referencing to to that time you know as i'm speaking about uh you know with the u.s ski team in in the mid 2000 2005 2006 you know we had a lot of amazing athletes, but the environment was really exciting at the same time. So the best athletes were actually inviting more athletes into the success. Who was on the team at that point? I know Bodie Miller was there. You had Darren Rawls, Jacob Fiola, Scott McCartney. Ted Liggett was starting to come through at that point in time. And, you know, it was a really amazing environment.

And expectations were building on itself, but it was in a really healthy way. Out of those five or six athletes that you just mentioned, how many podiumed on world championships or the Olympics? Yeah, I mean, you know, we had a stint where Darren and Bodhi, they were on the podiums in world cups and world championships, both of them, you know. And it was just amazing to be a part of. And, you know, many times when you stood on the racing hill

on the athletic venue, you know, 10 years earlier, you were hoping for an athlete to have a good day right and and and into yeah going forward to 2005 2006 when those guys were really going you were yeah no we're there today you know how many guys that we got it was so expected that we're gonna have one or two guys on the podium right and it was just built into our whole culture and uh it just built on itself and and um uh more and more younger athletes were involved in that whole whole uh kind of process and momentum right but voting there and they're inviting uh they were inviting everybody to this team, even if it's individual sports and they were competing with each other, but you could barely see it, right? They were so integral with each other's success. Yeah.

Iron sharpens iron. You know, that old idea. Yeah. Iron sharpens iron, you know, that, that old idea. Yeah. And then, so Bodie Miller is one of the first to do something actually quite splashy around the mental part of the game. And I never worked with him, but, and I don't know him just to be clear. But when I watch from a distance and I've heard plenty of stories, um, like it was a wild. And I'm not asking you to say anything disparaging about somebody that you've worked with. I'm not trying to do that with you. But I do want to get to a point, like he was wild. Is that fair to say? Yeah, I would say he was very confident in his way of looking at things.

And he didn't get limited by the community's thoughts about how things should be done. You know, so he definitely challenged the status quo of how things were done and how the community thought it should be done. So he had a really interesting angle at attacking, looking at topics in the technical realm or in the technology realm or whatever it was, he had a really interesting viewpoint on those things, which I think brought some sort of liberation away from what was the status quo of how we looked at, as a community,

looked at ski racing at that point in time, right? And I think that actually goes for almost every new superstar that comes around. They have a little bit different thinking of what is possible and they don't want to be limited by what is there now so so i think he was a really good example of that of of not having limitations to how fast you really could ski right so so he kind of broke through that and showed the way that, no, you can actually ski faster than we think you can. And he worked on that for many years.

But in the end, obviously, when he mastered the way of skiing and the accelerations, the forces, the line and all those things, he was, you know, epic at doing that with that speed. So he kind of broke through a few limitations, ceilings that we as the community puts on everything, right? Because, you know, we have belief systems and we have everything that creates our bubble or our framework in the performance world. But he somehow was able to look at it a little bit different and kind of break through a lot of those ceilings we thought were in place. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep.

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because he wanted to ski as fast as possible in six turns, and then not make it to the finish, right? But he wanted to see how fast you can ski. And I remember many times when he was coming through he was actually finishing the first you know run and this could be his first world cup win right on the world cup stage and and he i shouldn't say he didn't care but he was more um excited about trying to do a second fast run versus being safe and make it to his best result ever, right? So it was really interesting to see his liberating approach to it.

He wasn't bogged down by results or World Cup points or the finances that maybe come with a World Cup win or World Champion win, right? He just went to see how fast he could ski and how fast a human could ski at that point in time. So it's really interesting that way. I'll tell you a quick story and then I want to take that point and bounce it to you. So his point or part of his mission was to see how fast he could go. And he had this idea about what that frontier could look like. And then again, I think that there was these high standards that he would hold others to. But more importantly, it sounds like what he was doing is like opening up and challenging ideas to unlock yeah okay and i think that's where that wild expression came from right type of thing just a little bit different right but but he was pushing the boundaries and with that you know other domains come with it right well he was literally pushing the the edge of the envelope on one leg one knee one ski at the highest velocity you know that you could possibly

torque a human in you know for folks that aren't familiar with um downhill skiing i mean the torque um is is incredible is that a fair fair thing Yeah. Yeah. Four or five times the body weight, you know, on the edges of the ski, right? So. And then, but it didn't stop there. So that's the technical physical part, but then it didn't stop there. It was the same, that same underlying, um, commitment would show up in social and coaching and, you know, lifestyle and other parts. And I love that. I think that that scares people. I love that because I see a full embodiment of first principles. And it's the first principles that I'm, if we get the first principles to be clear and first principles to be true and first principles to be expressed

on a consistent basis. And then the mental skills is what stitches the clarity of those first principles to the conviction and the expression of them on a regular basis. Because you can have clear ideas, first principles, if you will, and you can have a conviction about it. But then as soon as the environment pushes up against them and something more true, something more fundamental shows up, then the whole thing goes haywire. This is what performance anxiety is. So we say one thing, but our first principle, so we say our first principle is excellence and

standards and commitment, da, da, da, da. But our true first principle, the bedrock first principle is something different. It's like, am I okay? I need approval. I need outcomes for me to feel whatever, whatever, whatever. I need money. Then that's where, if we don't get to the truth of those things, they show up. They show up. They show up. Yeah, they do. Okay. So here's a story. Tell me if this is wrong and then I want to get to your first principles. I think it was his last Olympic bid. The reason I'm bringing up Bodhi because of this story really is that he puts it down and he's contending for gold. And he runs his race and there's a moment, the crowd's doing its thing. He's sliding into the finish line and the crowd does his thing.

And the camera catches the board behind him and he's in first place. And then there's a moment where he does this. He doesn't look at the board, but he goes, and I'm nodding my head, as if he was replaying his lines. And then he kind of grins. It looks like what he did was he said, I just did my very best. That's what I came here for. And if it was going to be third, okay. Fifth, okay.

Now, no one wants that. But then he looks up to the be, if it was going to be third, okay. Fifth. Okay. Now no one wants that, but then he looks up to the board and it's confirmation. I'm in first, you know, like, is that a true story or did I romanticize too much of that? No, I don't know the story if it's true or not, but, but I think, uh, what you're, identifying there it is a little bit of the sense i have of him you know that that it was more his own perspective of how how close he was to his optimal best or produce his best that was more interesting to him than maybe the outcome and and so I think

your story reflects kind of that that uh that sensation I think and and uh I saw it uh quite a bit you know I was fortunate enough to to be there when he uh had his career um and And I think myself and a lot of my staff colleagues, we really saw that it is not always what we think and what you think as a person. That is the truth, right? There are other layers to that or dimensions. And Bodhi showed us, I think all of us, that we might have to be dynamic in our thinking and be warm and open to other ways of looking at things, not just our own bias, right? It's so easy to get stuck in your own bias and that's your worldview,

but how do you, do you expand on that? And I think we were very fortunate enough to have Bode come through during that time. And he actually showed us that there are dimensions of changing your own thinking. So, so that was an amazing experience. Yeah. And not lost on anyone, especially me in this conversation that, um, your first principles and your team's first principles were so remarkable that it would, it was a moment in skiing history that, you know, was captured.

And so that's why I want to get to like, it's not just the athlete that makes the team great. Sometimes that does happen. But it's this interplay in relationships and this shared agreement that this is what we're agreeing to go after. And this is how we think it's right. And then when you have someone that says, yeah, and I'm going to count, I'm going to be counterculture and question everything. And I can back it up, you know, like it gets pretty exciting. So if we can flip over to you for a minute, what are some of your first principles? What are some of the guiding principles in your life that are true for you that are bedrock, at least now for now, it doesn't mean that they'll always

be bedrock, but you know what are some of those first principles for you yeah i think that it's probably this curiosity always right to to curiosity creates a lot of sub behaviors that are beneficial, you know, for a group of humans or for your own growth or for you as a person. So many times when I try to peel off the onion and understand what the truth is for me and factors that have beneficial expressions, I guess, curiosity is something that pops up at the very bottom.

And I think that drives a thinking that you always want to learn more. You don't know everything. You don't know where we are on this trajectory of performance or humanity whatever it is it's curiosity of of looking at other ways of thinking and looking at you as a person can you can you look at things differently can you change a little bit how's your behavior can you do things better so i think that's one of the the the kind of fundamental pieces i i come back to when when people ask me about a system or a program and also what you just asked an expression of of uh the fundamental pieces in

what you think is is right and wrong type of thing okay so let's let's zoom up um for just a moment big question what are we doing here so you've been involved for three four decades in helping the best become their best and in many times that pursuit shatters records and understandings more importantly. So what do we go way up to humans in your take? Because you've been at the tip of the arrow, best of the best for a long time. What are we doing here? Yeah, yes. That's a loaded question, I guess. No, I think we, you know, we are on a journey, I guess, right? And we're trying to understand the journey and put context to the journey, right? And understanding. But I think in my world, it kind of presents itself of looking at directions and goals in the future, right?

That what creates the vision and the direction of a group of humans trying to achieve something that's better than what it is people getting together on a journey that can push us forward. If we are a group that's pushing in the same direction, we can achieve more than yourself, you know, being just one person. So I think seeing performances is when it becomes this bigger than yourself type of environment. So I think that's probably what we have seen when groups of athletes do really well or teams do really well. It's almost a culture that's supported by the individuals,

but bigger than themselves, you know, by the individual. So I guess that is culture, I guess. And somebody told me that culture really is a personality or a community or a group. So I thought that was really cool. And it kind of expresses that. So therein lies a nice rope to pull on from the mountaintop to the masses, which is if you want to move forward, we need each other and there's contributors. Each of us need to contribute in meaningful ways together. And the shared mission is required, like something bigger, shared purpose, you know, is required. Okay. And then you would say, if you get someone in there, that's going to have these,

you know, wild imagination of what is possible. And they think about that, and they can articulate it, they can be clear about it. And they can look around the room and say, these are the capabilities that we need from each other. And then to also have a counterculture off-access way of looking at it and still maintain a sense of humility and still maintain a deep curiosity about how to get better, that those would be some of the hallmarks of cultures and environments that you would say, yeah, that's good. That will work. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you, you probably express them a little better than I do, but you know, it is kind of getting our arms together and pushing the same direction,

right? That's when we really can move further than, than our individual self. But I think the hard part in sports is to find that, the goal or the direction or the achievement where you want to go and have that supported, right? I mean, we've seen multiple times where you have teams and organizations who think that that they're going to achieve amazing things but not but nothing happens right uh or they go backwards even and

establish goals and establish visions that that are supported and and rings with with that community or that group of people i mean that that that, that's what's so interesting. You know, as you know, we always set goals and, and we, we have methods to reach those goals, but, but it's hard to, to actually, actually believe in it and actually be on that journey together to achieve it. Right. So, so I think that's a, a big kind of piece in this whole thing is to get a goal in place, a vision in place that's supported by groups of people, many individual people. It's one of my favorite parts is to sit down with highly passionate, smart, intelligent, capable, skilled people and say, right, let's think out

four years. Let's think out six years. What are some three years, whatever it might be, what are some of the things that we believe are going to be taking place? And let's be wild. Let's be uncommon, you know, and unreasonable with our imagination. Right? And then let's write it down so we can look at that thing together and then say, can we nod our head to that and get our hearts to flutter just a little bit and our minds to go, oh my goodness, like really? And then, but if we can nod, then go, okay, what's the plan? Yeah, exactly right.

Yeah, I think that. Yeah, that's when the language and the discussion and the thoughts, you're putting it into like blocks that you're actually driving towards that common vision, you know. But it's, you know, it's so much easier to be said than done, right? And that's what you said. I'm always so impressed with people who can collect the group or connect the whole thing and drive it. And that's what's exciting and interesting to me. And so let's say that people agree that that's the direction.

They agree on the plan. They're on board with it. But then they just can't quite get out of the bureaucracy and kind of the middle layer fat of processes. And, you know, there's just ways that we do things and it's just not agile enough. It's not nimble enough. When you think of communities and teams, maybe even organizations, you agile and being agile. Do you have a line of thinking about how to create an agile team? Yeah. No, I think I do. I think that like we talked a little bit about earlier, if you have a system in place and you have a strategy in place,

how much momentum does that bring versus how many limitations does it bring at the same time and ceilings to in my case athletes are amazing human beings that have a little bit different track and are uncommon are ortho unorthodox in, in, in how they, um, act and, and how they behave, you know, how do you, um, open up for individual kind of pathways, but at the same time, stay on, on the same track, right. On the, on the same train that's going in a certain direction, right? So I think that's a common mistake in many performance programs is that you limit athletes in certain ways. At the same time, you're trying to help them, right? So I think it's really important to have that ability to look at an individual path,

individuals thriving to their best, but still being on the common path, so to speak. And I think it's a very delicate and probably a very hard, difficult navigation to shed. This is the way we do things. I think that's one of the killers to high performance is, well, this is how we've always done it. That curiosity, right? Like we talked about earlier, you know, if you're curious, then you, you, at least you're open to, to new ways of doing things or think in a different way,

right. Versus being stuck in, in what you're comfortable with. I guess all of us are, you know, we, we go back to what we are comfortable with, but if that's kind of the, the culture around a group of people or an organization, I think that kind of blocks a lot of opportunity to accelerate performance. Okay. So let's do this. Let's go way upstream. This is a hard question, I think, and it's going to sound almost trite because we're both in this industry, but how do you define high performance? Yeah, so I think high performance is, I think by definition, it is achieving a wanted outcome, right? So I think if you read the dictionary, that's where you come to. But I think high performance is the ability to create an environmental pathway for us to open up and optimize what we have developed for thousands of years,

really, in our genes and DNA for individuals to optimize that and show what is possible, breaking grounds, and then start to fill in behind that with rationale and knowledge and insight to why those things happen. Okay. So is high performance for you, is it more about meeting the demands successfully, meeting the demands of an environment or a challenge or conditions? Is it about meeting those or exceeding those standards or challenges? Or is it more about the harmonizing at a high level? So the harmonizing between thoughts, words, actions, and environment, you know, where, where do you go? Is it like

high performance, more of a metric, like, okay, we won. And, you know, so that's one way to look at it. Like, but like, if you've performed, I don't know, let's call it 92% of your very best and you won, is that high performance? Right. Yeah. I don't think it is, you know, I think high performance is that next level of, of, of bringing us as a community into that next dimension of what is possible, right?

It's showing that we are moving forward. We are expressing new records. We are breaking down what we thought was possible or there's a new frontier that kind of inspires, drives, excites communities, the next generation to achieve even more. Yeah. So you're not going to hang your hat on, on the simplistic idea that high performance is as simple as winning or doing your very best. What if you do your very best?

You're, you have a personal, a PR, personal record, personal best PB. And you're doing it, let's say on the world stage. Is that high performance?

It's performance for sure. It's individual optimized performance, right? But high performance has probably layers to it. And it's more of a communal human breaking grounds and driving inspiring challenging uh our belief systems when we go grab dinner and we have these conversations i come back just buzzing from them you know like um so okay so so so we're in it right now and we're talking about simple concepts that are not so simple to really get our arms around and certainly complicated on how we set up processes to support it right like super complicated that being said is what are some of the metrics and i'm going to be

concrete right now what are some of the metrics that you're interested in? And I just want to put an asterisk that metrics to me, if they're not leading indicators, I'm not interested in them. And at the same time, I'm fatigued by metrics, dude. I'm fatigued by the external telling the internal what is right. Because I think we're almost like in many ways using technology to throw us back to the stone ages. We need something outside of ourselves to tell us if our internal system is working right. Minds, thoughts, movements, decisions, all of that. Is it working right or not? Recovery. I don't know. So I'm not fully formed there, but I'm pretty sure I'm fatigued by metrics right now. But that is where we are. And I am curious about some of the metrics that you're interested in right now.

So I think it's a very relevant topic now with technologies and metrics and feedback systems. And the way we have talked about it at Rebel was we talked about it as indirect performance technology or direct performance technology. And we tried to have them in those two buckets. And what is really interesting on the indirect performance technology bucket is that, and that's what I think you're talking about, is that we're getting exposed to so many technologies nowadays that are giving metrics, but they are indirect performance enhancing, right? So they're still asking you to change as a human, right? So they're trying to tell you to sleep in a different way. They're trying to tell you to eat in a different way,

to recover in a different way, but it's still asking you to change as a person or as a human, right? And we know that it's very hard to change who you are, right? And to measure if those metrics are changing because of this technology is very hard to do. Versus direct performance technology would be a technology that you use the technology and you can directly see the performance change, time or flights or jump height or speed or whatever it is, such as the clap skates or the spike shoes or the track on a track and field environment, right? Or obviously in the aerodynamic world, where the cars, motorcycles, suits, helmets are getting faster. Those are direct. They have direct impact on the performance outcome.

And that's what is really interesting to me to be in that space versus the indirect performance technologies, right? That's asking you to change and it's over a long period of time and it's hard for you to change pre-post and measure if it actually had impact or not on performance outputs. So that's a little bit where we have been playing and where we have been trying to strategically kind of put our focus and our time. And so when some of the technologies and metrics like HRV and quality quantity sleep and respiration systems and brainwave patterns, some of those metrics are, you know, those are the ones I'm talking about. They're good. And I'm, listen, I'm tracking my HRV.

I don't know. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So do you get excited about where the beginnings of HRV and these technologies are taking us? These are indirect technologies to your point. Where are you with those? And I get the direct ones. Those direct ones require an incredible lift in R&D, incredible investment in, yeah, those are usually take their longer cycles and not available to the majority of people, period, you know,

until they become available. Yeah. And, you know, actually one of the direct technologies, are you familiar with Apollo Neuro? Have you seen them? Yes. Yeah. They partnered up with us a little bit and I'm loving it. That's a direct technology. So you apply it and there's a direct, it's like a haptic response that can make a, according to their research, a direct improvement in HRV. So for an example, right? Okay.

But then when you think about the indirect technologies, which ones are you interested in measuring? And I'm thinking more, less about athletes and more about humans. A massive piece that we are trying to understand is obviously the mindset or how the brain works. So, but it's very difficult area, right? But all the neuro technology is very interesting going forward for the human race, basically, right? But for us on the performance side as well it's very interesting because you know it's such a big open space that that we want to start to put frameworks to

but as you know you know we've been down a few different roads with dead ends right and and new research comes out and kind of counters what technologies we're using and different frequencies, and we're not doing the right thing. But I do believe that in the future, there will be technologies and way of measuring the mental aspect or the infrastructure of the brain and improving that. So, so the signaling to the neurological system can improve. So I think that's, that's a big one, but, but I, I probably have tabled it for a while until more research or more

technologies rise to, to, to a really good place. And obviously, you know, the whole recovery aspect of training is very interesting in how we improve recovery. As we all know, you know, we are butting up against how much athletes can train. And, and so where do you go from there? Well, you need to, to recover faster in between training session. You need to absorb a lot of that signaling that you're trying to do to, to the different mechanical systems. So,

so recovery is definitely something that's a hot topic now in the whole community. But it's very interesting, obviously, in terms of recovery, health, getting back to more training, so to speak. So that's really interesting. You know, the world zigs and sometimes you and I like to zag a little bit and recovery, like down-regulation recovery strategies are critical, essential. And I've been, it feels like I'm returning back to some roots by reminding people that I spend time with that actually one way to recover better is to actually increase your tolerance for stress. So not just down-regulating, but purposely engaging in acute stress with a Zen mind. And so, you know, many times people will do stuff like cold shower

or whatever as a stress tolerance activity. And maybe there's a parasympathetic activation afterwards. Not maybe. There is a parasympathetic activation afterwards. But you know what? If you're doing the hard thing with a restricted mind, a get-me-out-of-here mindset, I don't think we're not really creating the tolerance to stress. We're managing it for a moment, but we're not really creating the tolerance to stress. We're managing it for a moment, but we're not getting that true adaptation where mind, brain, and body are working together.

And so I've been spending a lot of time there, you know, like thinking about both of those. And so how do you help people, Per, when you know what, there's not a human on the planet, certainly not one listening to our conversation that doesn't know what good sleep is and the value of it. So how do you help people that are struggling with sleep? It's a complicated one, I think. Yeah, that one is absolutely very complicated. It's probably not, you know, my foretell or I'm not at all the specialist in this area, but I do believe, actually from some of our previous conversations, that the way you look at healing, you look at and embracing recovery comes a lot from your mindset and trying to connect your brain and your thoughts with your body right so i think that's a massive big white space that we haven't really touched on, but we see that there's something there and there

are research supporting it and things like that. So I think that's a really interesting aspect is to put yourself in a connected environment, your mind and your body, and really try to put content to the recovery and intentions around the recovery and what you're actually trying to do right so so if you can connect uh your intentions with it and trying to understand how you feel to that connection, I think that could really improve your process of recovery. There you go. Okay. What are some of the habits that you've learned, that you use, that you've observed from world-class thinkers and doers, you being one of them? What are some of the habits, daily habits that you have? And you might, I mean, wave me off because sometimes I get into this space too. I'm like, I'm over habits, you know, like, um, have a clear intention and go

get it, you know, go be about it. And so, but just for the sake of being a reductionist for a moment, um, what are some, what are, what are some habits that you found to be incredibly valuable? I think it's to give time and space for reflection and a little bit deeper thinking. So almost like philosophizing a little bit and trying to find that intention with who you are and what you're trying to do. I know, you know, we stress a lot through the day and trying to achieve what needs to be achieved. But then when we rest or step away from that, we're still not in the place where we can actually really, we're not in a place where we're thinking about

how we are away from the stress, right? So I think it's really interesting if you could find a, I don't know, safe haven or a mental place where you can just be you and you can try to get deeper into your thoughts and maybe go through generational kind of processes and things through your own, that whole entire trajectory type of thing. Do you write or do you listen more? Is this more of a meditative, philosophical, exploratory process or Do you write? Or do you listen more? Do you like is this more of a meditative, philosophical exploratory process? Or are you writing?

Yeah, yeah, I think it's more philosophical, you know, and then just thinking and in deeper dimensions, I guess, and trying to, to find find perspective reference points in those thoughts. Do you read a bunch? I do, but probably not enough. I read mostly articles and research, I guess, and abstracts and and yeah things like that but but probably not enough in in terms of philosophy and that space if there was a um a movie that fires you up what is it i mean i always say you know to everybody around me that you know braveheart they could stop making movies after Braveheart.

You can't see anything that's better than that. That's probably the end of everything, I think. So that is kind of my favorite, absolutely. How about a quote, a song, a lyric, a poem, something that is concise in, you know, the spirit of what you're trying to do in life that comes to mind for you right now? Yeah, probably would be something like

Dark Side of the Moon with Pink Floyd, I guess, in terms of songs. Yeah. Like that. Yeah. Just human. Yeah. Floyd, I guess, in terms of songs. That expression of just human depth of human brain

and mental state. If there's a word that captures what you understand most, what would that word be? Probably reference, I think. What does that mean that we all without reference we have had a hard time to place ourselves against something else we need a to understand if we're tall or short or strong or fast or if we are kind or nice or not nice type of thing.

So I think that's what we're comparing ourselves to something all the time, right? You wake up, I'm tired, and then you reference that with, you felt fresh another day, or you felt even more tired, or you're hungry. How hungry are you? You need a reference point to understand that. So I think reference is probably one word that connects a lot of things. Yeah. So reference with curiosity is what gets you out of judgment and critique. It's what gets you out of constrictive thinking that's how you do it. Okay. And so why do people care so much about other

people's opinions? I guess it's a safety, right? You need to feel safe somewhere. You need to feel grounded. And you need, I think it's comes down to, you know, probably very simple fundamental safety mechanisms that we and other species have. We somehow have to express something to find our partner in life or find ourselves in a place where we can engage with a partner and so forth in life. I think it comes down to almost that fundamental rooted things. Let me tell a funny story real quick, and then I want to wrap up with you. Thank you for your time, Per.

Yeah, awesome. It's always fun to go out on a journey with you. So that being said, how do you define or articulate mastery? Yeah, so I think that's something I thought about quite a bit. And, you know, where my mind goes first is, you know, to, which I think a lot of people go into the same place, is this kind of old wisdom. You know, you get an old woman or old man in your mindset that has a lot of experience

and a lot of reference points in their lives. So they can look at things differently. They have experienced their own mind looking at things this way or another way and kind of created this highly agile and wise way of looking at things, right? But then if I take the next level and, and, and as maybe pertains to me more is that I think when you feel mastery is when you actually have insight or material or thoughts or, or knowledge that you can contribute with to a group of people that haven't seen or been exposed to that thing before, right? So I think it's when you can contribute to a group of people or to an athlete or to a community with something that hasn't been seen before, so to speak, in that world.

I love it. It's so good. It's so clear. Nobody's articulated it that way. And yeah, it's really crisp. And it leads me, this is a question I haven't asked anyone else. So the right questions will lead to the right answers. Yeah, the right questions are massive. Yeah. Yeah. So what are some of the right questions for you? Yeah. it's the, you know, we stumble on this all the time, is how do you integrate with other human beings or other expertise?

And to get to the right questions, you need to get to the nucleus of what sparks their thinking or what they're trying to get out on the table or what they're trying to bring into a question, right? So the nucleus of the thought of the person that you're working with. Last question. If you could sit with a master, a true master, dead or alive, doesn't matter to me who would it be and then where are you and the third part to it is like do you have a question

you'd ask him i mean what comes into my mind would be sitting bull you know the indian, right? I mean, there's always been something mysterious and mystique that, that I would love to get insight to and, and love to learn about, you know, maybe it's just a romanticized kind of, of a human being or, or what has been brought into our history. But yeah, that probably would be, you know, somebody I really would like to sit down with and talk for a long time. And if you had one question, the reductionist approach here,

what would it be? It would be something with the layers of his trajectory or how he got to a wise or a place of wisdom. I love that you're interested in wisdom because I think life falls so short if we just are smart and exploring the complicated, right? Like, let's get it down to wisdom. But wisdom, get on a soapbox for a moment here. Wisdom is revealed, you know, so wisdom requires an internal investigation mapped up against truths. And the way to get to the truths are multifaceted. And I'm talking about small T's leading to the big T's. But wisdom is small truths to big truths but wisdom is where it's at dude but you can't get there unless you're going to really do a deep dive and have the courage to

be vulnerable and really examine oneself yeah something like that a little bit challenging your own belief mechanisms and your own thoughts right type, type of thing. Awesome. Okay, brother, I appreciate you. Looking for our next dinner, you know. And yeah, so, you know, I don't know where to send people to drive because you're a little bit of an enigma. You're not on social media. I've been on you for years to get your book done, to write it, you know. So I'm just going to suggest people listen to this again if they want to know you

better about that and i'm on linkedin actually so you are on linkedin yes i am okay yeah uh what's do you know the handle is it pair lenstem yeah it's p lenstem i think yeah oh p p lenstem yeah okay brilliant i'll put that in the show notes and tag in all that stuff. So, Per, appreciate you, brother. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks a lot, as always. Okay, I hope you enjoyed that conversation.

I mean, Per's a legend. He's so good. There's just something about reference points and about curiosity and about experiencing something and then reflecting about it. And so that's what I love about Per is that he's got a world of reference points, both from experience, from observation and from science. Then he's got this curiosity to better understand, like, what do those things mean in light of the challenge that we're

trying to figure out. And then to do it in partnership with other people, to really learn from others along the way, because no one person holds all the answers. So I want to encourage you, increase your reference points, both from science and observations and experience, and then be really curious about the challenges that you're trying to sort out and go that direction with other people. All that being said, if you love this podcast and you really enjoy it,

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