Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Dave Phillips: Golf & Entreprenuership

Episode Date: October 21, 2015

One of the accelerants to growth is surrounding ourselves with people that have insight…..another accelerant is going down the path of developing insight within yourself. Dave Phillips has done, and is doing, both of those. He has devoted the past 25 years to becoming a world-class coach. He is one of the most sought after golf instructors in the country and is rated one of the Top 100 Teachers in the country by Golf Magazine. Show Notes: 6:45: Coming to America at a young age and quickly getting a passion for golf "I found my way... just by watching other players and trying and learning and going to different teachers and so on and so forth" 9:17 "The very best players in the world, they know what they're good at" 9:38 12:22: How he was able to fit in as the new kid all the time "The ones that succeed the best, especially under pressure, they tend to be able to separate themselves from their situation. It's almost like they've got an outer body experience, where they can see things from a higher perspective than everybody else and then they dive back in" 14:52 17:06: Finding the best people and building TPI 24:13: Approach to teaching golf 33:03: Defining what a high performance coach is "The sequence of which you put things together is important especially to help somebody get to that next level" 35:08 41:31: Describing one of his main guiding philosophies 47:39: The biggest cost pursuing his way of living "If you're scared to fail, you'll never really commit, you'll never really put yourself out there and you'll never get to where you ultimately want to go" 53:15 53:54: How he helps people be bold and stand up to try something they normally wouldn't 58:59: One phrase that guides his life 1:05:32: The thing he's most hungry for 1:12:15: His ideal competitive mindset 1:19:15: The most important mental skills in golf 1:25:10: Defining mastery "Mastery is having a great self awareness... it's being able to perform or put yourself out there without fear of failure."_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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and also understand the robust and sturdy practices that allow them to explore their potential. And in the case of this conversation, explore the potential of others. And in essence, the end game hope is to provide you with ways that you can train your mind and your craft in a very similar fashion

to some of the world's exceptional performers. And we're just going to pull back the curtain and see if we can get some deep clarity on what those practices look like. And in this episode, it's with Dave Phillips. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success.

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Sales Navigator for free for 60 days at linkedin.com slash deal. That's linkedin.com slash deal. For two full months for free, terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. I'm pretty intentional about what I eat, and the majority of my nutrition comes from whole foods. And when I'm traveling or in between meals, on a demanding day certainly, I need something quick that will support the way that I feel and think and perform.

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I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. And Dave is a world leading coach. He has a global perspective of what world leading coaching looks like.

He's traveled the world. He's lived in many, many different countries as we talk about. And he himself has made as an expert coach, he's made golf's top 100 teachers since 2000. And he's also recognized by golf digest as one of the top 50 coaches in the u.s and maybe more importantly in this conversation he's taken the insights of his craft and turned it into a wonderful business to be able to accelerate the coaching craft inside of golf so he spent 25 years working how to how to really understand how to teach others how to excel. And so this is, I'm excited because this is about coaching and this is about expert coaching.

And the most important coach we have is the coach within ourselves, our inner dialogue, the conversation we have with ourselves is either creating glass ceilings and structures to not go for it, or it's creating opportunities to take a shot and take a risk and work hard and stay with it. And so we are our most important coach. And that's essentially, I think, one of the really robust strategies that we'll learn here and so as a co-founder i'm sorry as a co-founder of the Titleist Performance Institute with Dr. Greg Rose really what they've done is it's it's a game changer in the field of golf and their goal was to be the first true golf performance facility that wrapped around as many players that they could and to really wrap around the entire person, everything from game strategy to equipment to biomechanics

and a rich and deep look at the human body. And so since they started their seminars in 2006, they've now certified over 17,000 coaches in 59 countries across the world. So there's incredible gems inside of this and there's really rich strategies that he is able to articulate. As you listen, I hope you'll hear how he thinks about the importance of surrounding ourselves, all of us, with people that are deeply interested in the collective success of the group.

And that's both personally and professionally to have people in our lives that have our backs and are truly supporting us and challenging us in just the right way. He talks through the importance of being curious and he himself, that's his framework. He's really curious about how things work. And then he looks for themes and he structures those themes and passes it on to others. He talks about the importance of learning from failure and just not getting caught up in the pain that comes with it, but learning from it, taking the essence of it and moving forward quickly.

And he also talks about how he helps others to take risks. And he's a risk taker himself. And I hope you enjoy that journey that he walks us through and the essence i think from from a collective group of of helping others become is he really reinforces the idea to make sure that we take a look at the foundation of going for it which is really how we surround ourselves with people that support us, that challenge us, that understand us so that we can do the same for them. And the collective becomes something greater than any individual could experience on their own. So that's what he

represents. Those are some of the strategies that maybe you can employ in your own life. And enough of this intro. Let's get right into this with Dave Phillips. Dave, welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm jacked to have you on here. I'm excited to get going on this. And I just shared a bit of your history and what you've been up to. But can you just bring us up to speed to kind of what you got going on nowadays?

Sure. First of all, Michael, thanks so much for having me on. It's been amazing to listen to the podcast that you've done already. You've had some incredible people on there that I learned from, and I hope to continue learning. And I'm excited to be on with you. But in terms of TPI and what we do, you know, I'm a golf professional by training, I suppose. I grew up all over the world, had an interesting childhood, and grew up in Africa and Asia and the Middle East, Far East. I lived in 27 different countries.

And the place to learn golf was in a lot of these third world countries, the safest place for a young kid is actually the country club. So everybody joins it, regardless of whether they play golf or not. And I learned to play at a young age and got a crash course in lots of different cultures, which has really helped me. And, you know, over the years, learning golf, becoming a good player, and really searching to try and be a great player has kind of led me to meet some incredible people, some incredible players and coaches. And I continue to play at the highest level I can, but my passion is really coaching. And that's what we do here at TPI.

And then how did, okay, awesome. And how did it turn from playing to coaching? Where did that rub happen for you? You know, I think I got a college scholarship to play golf and I was a soccer player. And, you know, it was one of those things where I really didn't know coming from a different world. You know, I grew up in Africa and went to 13 different high schools and traveled all over. And I really didn't know the culture of American college life or anything like that. And I was kind of out of my element. I was very young for one. I came to America when I was 17 years old, actually 16. I graduated college when

I was 19. So I went through it very quickly. But, you know, I think what happened was I wanted to be like most young kids. You know, you get involved with the sport. I wanted to be the next great golfer. I wanted to win the Masters, you know. And so that was my passion. That's what I wanted to do. And I was good. I was a good player as a junior and I played in a lot of different events. And through college, I played. And then I started to realize that I never had any formal coaching. And I just was one of these kids that would watch people and copy them. And I was good at it to the point where my golf pro, I remember in Africa had an artificial hip and he used to kick his leg in, in order to be

able to turn on the backswing. So as a young kid, I had this little kick in and turn and people would stop me and go, why do you do that? And I just said, well, that's what you do, isn't it? And so it actually worked, but, but, you know, people were like are like well you don't need to do that and actually this pro said to me once he goes why are you doing what i do and i go well that's what you do you know and but but as kids i mean that's what you kind of do you don't you don't have all these layers of paint on the house you just look and you see something you like and and you get engaged and that's what's so important and and in a big circle, I think that's where coaching in many ways needs to go back to. It needs to go back to these kids. But I think for

me, I was in search. When I got over here, it was this world. Everybody wanted to be in America. Everybody wanted to go to America. When you're an expat or when you live in another country, you can't believe how great this country is. And, you know, when you come from other countries, you know, the fact that people here complain about anything, I'm like, how can you complain? No idea in Africa and Asia and what's going on in some parts of the world today. It's still the greatest country in the world. And the opportunities are incredible. And I just was like this wide eyed kid that had all this opportunity. And I started doing, I didn't know how to become a golf professional or how to get to the next level. I really didn't have the support structure of a family.

So I just searched. And I found somebody that said, hey, you should join the PGA of America. That's how you start. So I did. And got a first job at like a country club up in northern New Jersey at the time. And thought this was it. This is how you became a golf bro. And then there was the business of golf. And then there was the golf shop and all that stuff, which really didn't interest me. I wanted to be a player. And so I found my way really just by, you know, watching other players

and trying and learning and going to different teachers and so on and so forth. But I think what really happened for me and why I didn't get to that next level is perhaps because I was too inquisitive. I was searching too much. And from what I've learned today in the role I am here, you know, the very best players in the world, they know what they're good at. They don't necessarily worry about what other people are good at. And I think I did. And I think that's probably what hurt me to get to the next level. But hey, I found my calling anyway. I love to coach and teach. Yeah. Okay. I heard so many important things in there. Like you've talked about gratitude. You talked about your, your strength becoming a liability at some

point and how some of the best in the world actually are really good at controlling what's in their control and gating out all the other noise that comes down the, you know, that floods them on a daily basis. And then I heard something else, which is, did you say 13 high schools? Yes. Yes. It was, you know, I was born in England and my parents kind of went to Africa when I was about six, seven months old. And I grew up in Kenya. And then through the school systems, you know, we basically hopped from country to country every three or four months. So I was all over Africa. I was in the Middle East, the Far East. I was in Asia. I ended up in Papua New Guinea, a small island above Australia. My parents eventually immigrated to Australia and they were bouncing backwards and forwards between there and Africa. And then I was at an age where I was like, I need to get out. I need to escape. And there was this big country. I came here on vacation in 1979 to America, and I was just amazed. I think what got me the most was the amount of food you got when you stopped at a restaurant. It was just insane. And the size of the cars. I was like, look want to come here. I was in Africa at the time. I have an older brother and sister that they went to Australia.

And my parents wanted me to go there. And I basically said, no, I'm going to America. Okay. And what did mom and dad do that had you uprooted every three to four months? You know, I think it's been a mystery. No, my father was in the telecommunications industry. Is that, is that what he called it? That's what he called it. Let's put it that way. Yeah. Very cool. Okay. So dad, dad was doing his thing. You're not sure exactly what

it is. We can leave a lot to imagination with that. Yeah. And, and was bringing the family with him. Yes. So what was it like? Okay. I've got this idea in my head that there's key events and, you know, and, and people that either events or people deeply influence our path. And this has got to be one of them, but I don't want to presume that I don't want to, I'm sorry.

I don't want to assume that this was the event that shaped your life, but moving every three to four months, having to figure out how to be the new kid on a regular basis had to be really challenging. But I'm sure it built some resiliency. It's what I want to learn. It was, yeah. You know, I think that was probably it, is that I was always the new kid. And I had to make friends fast.

And I was very good at copying. So even language, like, you know, not that I know a lot of different languages, but I could change dialects. You know, I could go from a very kind of South African tongue to my voice, you know, to a very Australian slang to, you know, wherever I was, I would just mimic people quickly because I knew that if I didn't, I would get beaten up or it would be more difficult to get by. And then sport, you know, sport was that defining factor in that I played everything. I played cricket, I played rugby, I played soccer, I played golf. Anything that there was sport, I was in. And that kind of

breaks down a lot of barriers. You know, when you're part of a team, people get to realize that you're serious. And if you were good, which fortunately I came from a pretty athletic family, I fit in very quickly. So that was what was really cool. Yeah, I hear this often that sport is like this common language. The ball speaks to everybody. And if we hold that thought for a minute, what was it like for you to, like, how did you figure out how to fit in? I know you use sport, but then how did you figure out as a 12-year-old, 14-year-old how to fit into a new environment? to adapt and adjust has been my understanding of what the most creative, the highest functioning

athletes and performers are able to do. They get out so far away from the pack that they're forced to adjust and adapt in really sometimes very rugged environments. Well, yeah. I was very much the odd one out most of the time. And I think the big thing for me was having an incredible awareness of my surroundings. And, you know, when you live in a third world country, there's a lot of things going on that you need to be aware of. And so I think that was the biggest thing is not only did I have a great perspective of my surroundings, I was aware of myself in those surroundings. So, you know, and it took a long time for me to learn. But, you know, this is what I notice,

even with elite level athletes today, you know, the ones that succeed the best, and especially under pressure, they tend to be able to separate themselves from the situation. It's almost like they've got an out of body experience where they can see things from a higher perspective than everybody else. And then they dive back in. And I think that was me from a young age, you know. So what do you think it was about your upbringing that propelled you or led you to this path of really understanding the mechanics of teaching people how to help others be great golfers, as well as building that business,

the business that you have? Well, you know, I think you have to be inquisitive. You have to want to know. And, um, you know, I think the other big things that are important, you know, obviously, you know, and I mentioned to you, I have this talk on the F's, F's, which we can get into F words, but, um, you know, family and friends and having a supportive family structure, you know, having an older brother that was really good at everything, and I was the little brother that wasn't, it drove me harder. And I see that today. And that, you know, even in golf with young kids is that if there's an older sibling or an older friend or somebody better, if you can keep that kid in the game, they'll

actually become better. And I think in many ways that was me, you know? So, okay. When we go back to thinking about what you're driven for, was it to be better or was it to be better than that kid or that brother? It wasn't so much that it was to be accepted. In order to be accepted, I had to be as good, if not better. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, okay. So your drive early on was to be as good or better than others, as opposed to the way I understand your, like what you do now is helping people not necessarily be the best in the world, but get better, which is that process of improvement. Yeah. So I, you know, I think what I noticed is that in order to, even at a young age and coming here to America, not knowing anybody, just going to school and getting indoctrinated into the whole college world and so on and so forth, I think that you're surrounding

yourself with people that you respect and then learning from them. And, you know, what we've done at TPI is, you know, when we started, we built an advisory board of 52 men and women that are way smarter than us. And so what was important to me was find the best and ask them if they'll help. And most people will. And, you know, if you can get them to be on your advisory board, if you don't know the answer, you can go find it because someone's going to have bumped into someone. It's a small world when you really get to that level.

And what disciplines did you pull together on that board? So this is the beginning of your business, right? It is. So when TPI started, it was really Greg and I, and we were in Washington, D.C. at the time, and I was a golf You know, he used to look at the human body and he was working with golfers. And it was a rainy day and I took one of my students down there and he took me through this assessment of the physical side. So I had never really thought of that. I mean, as many golfers, when you learn golf, you pick up a club and the first thing you want to do is hit the driver as far as you can. And, you know, it wasn't until, you know, Greg really made me aware that you need to understand what that body's capable of because there's lots of ways to swing the club.

I mean, our philosophy in golf is there's thousands of ways to swing the club. But there is an efficient way for each of you, but it's based on what you can physically do. So you need to know what you're capable of first. Okay, I want to pause there. So what you're capable of first. Okay. I want to pause there. So what you're capable of. So the way that I think about this is I use the word like, what is that person's potential? And I like what you just did with, I think we're talking about the same thing. I obviously will see this from a psychological perspective and you're going to see, right now you're talking

about looking at it from a physical. How do you determine what somebody's capable of? What is your frame to think about that? Well, you have to start somewhere and you have to have great testing in place. And yet you have to be willing to call BS. There's a lot of people that tell you that they're good at something. So I test them to see whether they're true. And that puts them under pressure. And then you can see whether it really fits or breaks down. But the first thing we do is we take them through an assessment screen. And we're pretty good at that. The body works in an alternating pattern of stable segments connected to mobile segments.

And that's how we were born. That's just the human body. We're all the same in that structure pretty much. And so what we do is we look at that and see if that structure's in place. If it's not, then it's going to be a little more difficult to get my job done. So I know from studying biomechanics, from working with the best players in the world, that to hit a golf ball 300 yards and to swing the club at 120 miles an hour, there's certain physical characteristics you have to have. And it

doesn't mean you have to look like, you know, a muscly guy at the beach or even that you have to look fit. And that's the big difference in golf is people, golf fitness is way different from looking good on the beach. You know, there's a lot of guys that may not look physically fit, but their body functions exceptionally well for swinging a golf club or the way they swing a golf club. And is, okay, is that the average for a man, a male swing, 120? I mean, no, that's PGA Tour. That's PGA Tour. Okay. The average customer, you know, if they're swinging over 90 miles an hour, you know, that would be probably more average between 90 and 100. PGA Tour is 110 to 120. And, you know, college is close to 110, 115. So, you know, the young kids are actually getting faster and faster today. And what is the average club speed for the LGPA?

The LPGA Tour, they basically, you know, around 90, 92. So in many, many ways, the average country club male should really be looking at statistics from LPGA girls because they've got smaller frames, you know, they don't quite have the stature that maybe a man does, but they're able to create a lot of speed with their frames. So a lot of times I'm like, you need to really look at LPGA numbers and see what the girls are doing. And you can learn a lot from them based on what you need to do. How does your average customer relate to that when you say, hey, listen, you shouldn't compare yourself to the best in the world in your gender, but you should actually look at what women are doing because you're closer to that as a norm.

How do they respond to that? You know, not great. I don't think anybody likes to look at it that way. I don't really present it that way. I know it to be that way. But what I try and do is find a swing that fits you. So, you know, depending on who you are, so on how much time you're going to give me and what your dedication is to the sport. You know, I think that you've got to, I mean, golf's an amazing game. I mean, I've toured a two-year-old and I've toured a 92-year-old. You know, the other huge thing with golf is it covers so much. I mean, you know, what sport do you change the playing field every week? You know, there isn't one. You know, we go out on different golf courses. The circumstances change every week. You know, there isn't one. We go out on different golf courses. The circumstances

change every week. It's not like going to the tennis court. Tennis court's a tennis court. So the mental and emotional facts that have to go on and the physicality of swinging a golf club, the body just isn't really meant to do that. So there are a lot, a lot goes on in swinging a golf club. Yeah. I think it's one of the things that have attracted me to adventure sports such as surfing is that the surface changes on each wave and certainly each contest in the in the pro ranks every wave is different um you know every type of wave is different but even more nuance there in surfing is that every wave is different and so getting good at at let's just talk about surfing for a minute, is really challenging because it's hard to repeat in standardized conditions.

And the amount of time that somebody is actually standing on a surfboard is limited. And so figuring out how to maximize paddling and all the other necessary components to surfing is a competitive advantage. And I'm sure that you're using something similar to that in golf is that it's not necessarily just the swing, but it's all the things around it that can help maximize growth. Yeah. So, you know, we look very much at fundamentals. I mean, there's a basic set of fundamentals. They're moldable depending on how that body works. So, you know, obviously, there's a certain way to stand up to the golf ball. There's a certain way to grip the club that's going to be most effective. There's a certain way to move away from the golf ball to

move down. But if you, you know, try and put that in front of somebody, which happens when you're a young instructor and you first start, you want to give everybody everything, you know, and it's not until you get older that you realize that that's just going to confuse the issue. Because, you know, you just can't think of all these things when you're trying to hit a golf ball. So that's the danger. Yeah. Is that how you approach teaching? Is that you start with the base, the feet, and then you move up? Yeah. So I always look at it like it's the foundation, you know, for it's like a foundation on a house so you've got to build a structure so you've got to you've got to make somebody aware that if I put you in this position it will help you create consistent a consistent pattern of motion but there's not one position

there's a unique position for for everybody based on how you're physically put together you know but there are some basic fundamentals that I'm looking at from the stance, their posture, their body position, because it just helps make it easier, yeah. Okay, so that's the base. That's what you look at. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance,

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Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FindingMastery20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Okay. So let me see if I got this right. So you want to first begin with assessing what a person's capable of, and then you look at their unique physiological structures,

like they might have one hip that's higher than the other or one poor rotation in the left shoulder compared to right. And then so from that, then you give them some basic framework physically to work from, which is feet, posture, and maybe grip and hands, something along those lines. Yeah. So, so I always give everybody two options. You know, once I've done my evaluation, I can either build you the golf swing you want, but it might mean me bringing in my team of fitness experts and medical experts to rebuild you. It's kind of like taking a classic car and rebuilding it from scratch, you know. Or I can just teach you how to take that kind of classic car and drive it pretty fast around the track if we do a few modifications.

We might have to steer it a little bit to the left or we might have to pump the tires up a little bit on this side. So you give everybody two options. And, you know, what's amazing is you would think that most people would say, oh, I just, just teach me how to steer the car. But most people go, no, given two options, they want to rebuild the car, which shocked me actually. Yeah, that is shocking. Because that requires an incredible amount of work. But to me, it speaks to that they like what you're just shared with me is that most people want to be optimal that they don't just right they want they yeah that's okay that's interesting and and this is why it's so important to educate your consumer which i think great coaches do really well but i think in many cases people miss the boat is that you know we're

in a world of technology today where people don't learn. They just scan. They scan emails quickly. I mean, think about how our lives have changed in the last 10 years or so and with mobile devices. And it's incredible. You can see a lot of things, but I don't know how much they actually learn. So I'm big at really educating the consumer because I think the educated consumer is the best consumer, the one that's given the options, it's logical. You're going to look at it and go, well, geez, that makes more sense. Why wouldn't I do that? Okay. And so with this education process, you mentioned a word about giving them a better awareness. And so I've got two questions related to this word awareness is that do you, do you, where do you, okay, so first off, what you do is you give them a framework to test them and then teach a basic foundation for them.

And then where do you insert psychology? Obviously, I've got a, you know, I've got a point of view on this. And then how do you help teach them deeper awareness of how their where their feet are and i mean that both like metaphysically like as well as concretely and so like two-part question sorry for the long way of saying it is where do you insert psychology in this initial understanding of what a person's capable of and then maybe even teaching uh and then the second part is, do you do anything specifically to help people increase their awareness? So I think psychology right out of the gate, you know, from when you first interview somebody,

the questions you ask and the responses you get gives you a very good evaluation of, just from their responses, you can kind of get what kind of a person you're dealing with, just by the questions you ask. I mean, you're brilliant at this in what you do, and you're able to pull things out of people. I'm sure after you've asked your questions, you pretty much know a kind of something about the psychology of how this person goes about explaining. And I think we do the same thing. So I think that starts right out of the gate. I think the psychology, when you get into golf, you've got to gate. I think the psychology, when you get into golf, you've got to have a certain level of ability and you've got to keep them in the game.

So, you know, there's these building blocks to success. So a beginning golfer, it's not easy. They're going to struggle out of the gate unless you put these pieces of the puzzle in the right way. If you put them in the wrong way, they're going to get confused and upset. So it's this constant kind of mixing and moving and showing. And I use a lot of mirrors and a lot of feel. How did that feel to you? And that's what I've learned from modal learning. We've got two of the best modal learning experts in the world on our advisory board that have talked to us about how people learn. And when you can take that information and put it on somebody, it becomes very, very powerful if you know how to do it. Yeah. Okay. So I'm sure you are astute and deeply listened to the responses

that people give you. And knowing that you have somewhere near 17,000 coaches that you've certified. Do you walk them through how to listen and how to pay attention to what the person's maybe basic psychology is looking like? Yeah. So, you know, we have different levels of our certification. So level one is kind of fun because it's two days and there's some online pieces as well. But basically, you know, there's medical professionals, fitness professionals and golf professionals all in the same room. Because I'm big on building a team is that, you know, you're so much stronger when you can do that and you can share each other's experiences.

So if I'm trying to fix somebody's posture, but their pelvis won't move properly, then I might need strengthening. I might need to get their glutes engaged or I might need, you know, they may have scoliosis and I need to be aware of that from my medical doctor. So during our level one, I think we start the psychological process of how you answer the questions, how you talk to somebody, how you make them feel comfortable, because that's the key is that people have got to feel a sense of, of comfort when they come for a coaching session. You don't want someone to feel, oh, you know, this is, this is kind of uncomfortable because they won't give you what I need to make them better. You know? Yeah. I think that there's, um, there's,

you know, okay. So this is how we would do it. If like, uh, there's a psychologist involved in it, is that we would listen deeply, but we're putting those answers into a framework as well and so there's you know there's like ways to think about this which is are they are they open are they conscientious are they uh driven for external rewards versus internal rewards are they um extroverted introverted are they risk taker rule follower like there's these frames that you can put people, their basic responses in to learn about what they'll do under pressure. Yes. And so that's the big one, right?

Like trying to understand what happens to a person, what is their psychological framework that they walk into the room with so that we can understand what happens to them or maybe predict or have a guess of what happens with to them or maybe predict or have it have a guess of what would happen to them under pressure and it's that that's the art of this right is like figuring out what are you likely what is your likely response set when you start to either interpret pressures coming which can feel like exactly like you know there's real pressure or when you're in the middle of it. And do you fight your way through it,

or do you want to move yourself away from the perceived danger? So anyways, that's me thinking about, I don't know if you can use any of that. It's kind of esoteric. No, it is. It is. I mean, we've used psychological profiling on our elite level players. In fact, we do it with their caddies.

We do it with their team because I want to know, okay, is this caddy the right support caddy for this player? So at the elite level, I mean, these guys are playing for millions of dollars just like any elite level athlete these days. And to get the right team together, the caddy can be a huge supporting role. I mean, they're out there. They're the only one out there. They're the only one out there in the course of play under pressure. They see things that even the coach doesn't see. So that relationship today is bigger than anything. And you need to put those profiles together and see who would work well together and who won't. I think it's one of the more powerful

influencers for the golfer on the day is that relationship and the way that they nudge and challenge and nudge and challenge and support. And can I run something by you really quickly? Yeah, absolutely. So you're in the business of creating coaches. Yes. And I'd love if you could bounce off of this idea for me is that the way that I understand or define a high performance coach is that they have insight, they collaborate with their talent, they support and challenge and teach and train. And I know it's a mouthful, but it's like, one is like the elite, the true high performing

coaches is they just understand based on all their frames and experiences that they've seen in the world, they have insight. And then they go on a journey with the person and they value the person that's in front of them of what they've seen and smelt and heard and experienced. And then they go on to... And so, I'm just curious if you can hit on insights, collaborate, support, and challenge, teach, and train. Well, I think that you put it so well with those. I mean, I think collaboration is key, right? No one's going to get to where they're going to go unless you build the right structure around them.

And to do that, you can't do it yourself. So I think one of the things that I'm good at is I know what I'm not good at. And that's probably the most important thing is that I know with a player that I'm going to click immediately. It's kind of like doing a presentation in front of a crowd and you can see when you've got the audience, you've got them. And you can see by playing the game, you know, we play baseball with an audience and you're going to first base and you can see that you've got them. And then you can see that one person that sticks out that you don't. And I think what a great coach can do is they're able to figure out how to either bring that person into the mold. And if not, they know how to get someone else on stage with them

that can bring that person into the mold. And especially for us, because I'm a golf guy that's standing up there in front of medical professionals and fitness professionals talking about the body and how it relates to the golf swing. And some of these guys are looking at me like, well, what do you know about the body? You know, but I back myself up with experts. And that's the collaboration side, I think, in every level. I think that the sequence of which you put things together is important, you know, especially to help somebody get to that next level. Everybody's slightly different, but there is a sequence that works, and especially in golf. And we've been very fortunate to have so many elite players that we can test, and you can start to see traits.

And it's really based on sequence of not only their motion but of who's around them and that's why you know there's lots of different people that that you can bring into the fold so i mean probably the biggest word is collaboration i think to be an elite level coach you have to have that yeah yeah okay perfect all right so um on on this i i want to see if we can get, if you can help me understand, I can't even remember how many countries you've been in or seen. I know it's a lot, but what has been to date your single most important or your greatest adventure to date for you? Greatest adventure, just like in life or just in sport? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, life. Wow. Wow. So, you know, when I was in Papua New Guinea, which is a small island above Australia,

you know, Papua New Guinea is still very, very unheard of. Most people kind of know kind of where it is, but they don't really realize that, you know, this is a small country. I mean, California is probably bigger than Papua new guinea there's 200 different dialects of language there there's tribes there that you know up until 20 30 years ago hadn't even seen you know a caucasian person there and i remember going there at a young age and and doing this walk along something called the kokoda Trail, which is where during World War II, the Australians and the Japanese kind of came to head as the Japanese were coming down. And walking that trail and feeling this, this awe of, of things that I can't even describe,

because, you know, people had obviously lost their life on this. And this was through the jungle. It was extremely rugged. And, you know, there were leeches all over you. And you were going through rainstorms and monsoons and mudslides. And it was just one of these experiences that you see in a movie. And you were living it, you know. So to me, that was this incredible time in my life. And I've seen a lot of things. And growing up in Africa, I've seen some incredible things as well. But it really gave me a sense of respect for people, you know, and the fact that you can learn something from anybody.

I mean, we had these guides that would take us through the bush and find food. And, you know, they would come back with potatoes and mushrooms. And you're like, there's no farmer's market around here. Where'd you get that? You know know and it's just uh people are amazing there's some incredible things that you can learn and you can learn them from anybody so that was an amazing experience for me how old were you back then i was uh i think i was 13 14 i was on kind of one of these i wouldn't call it boy scouts but it was kind of of an advanced camp for that type of stuff. Oh, that's incredible.

So what's the name of that trail? I've never heard of it. It's called the Kokoda Trail. And, you know, there's some documentaries and movies about it. You can still actually walk it today, but, you know, you'll still find bullets and pieces of planes and pieces of weaponry on this trail. And it changes every year because of the floods. And, you know, New Guinea is a desolate place. I mean, it's very mountainous and it's very dangerous. I mean, one time when I was there, they had an airline called that was averaging a lost plane every month. So it was not a place you really wanted to get in a plane.

Pete Oh my goodness. All right. Pete It's pretty raw. When you describe that, I've never asked you this question, but do you have a spiritual framework? Because what you just described sounded like it was a spiritual moment where you're connected to people that had lost their lives in the battle that was there, mixed with nature, mixed with an overwhelming, maybe emotional experience. And I don't, again, not to be dramatic about the emotion, but it was enough that you picked this story to share about one of your greatest adventures. And I'm just curious if there's a spiritual framework that you work from, if that was

a spiritual experience, or you say, no, I see the world differently than that. You know, I think we're all spiritual. I wouldn't say I'm Christian. I wouldn't say that I'm a practicing Christian where I go to church every week because I don't, but I have at times gone and I have my own belief that there's a higher power. And the reason for that is because I've had a unique experience. I've lived in a lot of countries and seen a lot of different religions and a lot of different ways that people get in touch with their own feelings or their own higher power. And so I believe that there is somebody above those checking us out.

There's too many situations in life that happen that you can't explain, and then you sit back. And I've had some very eerie experiences throughout my life where I've sat back and said, there's somebody else looking out for me, you know? Pete Do you, so what, with all of the religions and spiritual practices that you've seen, like, firsthand, why did you choose Christianity? And this is not a critical question. This is, like, really curious. Yeah, you know, I don't think I chose it.

I think it chose me. I knew you were going to say that. Yeah. It was just one that, you know, through people that you meet. I mean, I didn't, my parents, I can't even, I don't think they ever took me to church or anything. So, I think I was always living in different parts of the world and being around different people. And I think I saw it more as the way that I wanted to live my life, you know?

And do you see that God for you is active or passive? Is he guiding life experiences or is it passive, like he set the ball in motion and said, okay, take a shot at this? I think he's passively active. So, basically, I think he sets the ball in motion. I've always believed that if the door is open, I'm going through it. And I'm not somebody that sits back and just waits for things to happen. I think you can make things happen. And I think that there's a lot of people that are willing to help you if you actually reach out for help. And don't be afraid to ask for help. There's a lot of people that are. Would you say that that's one of your guiding philosophies in life is that

to go for it in that exact way that you just described? Yeah, I do. I do. Because, you know, I think back to how I got to where I am today. And, you know, I've made the sacrifices, you know, away from my family. I mean, you know, my mother and father are still alive. They live in Australia and so do my brother and sister. And, you know, I see and father are still alive. They live in Australia, and so do my brother and sister. And, you know, I see them once every three or four years. And yet, you know, I haven't had that family culture, apart from my wife's family, that's very close to me. It's, yeah, definitely, definitely. Yeah, so you and I have talked about this before, about how much you travel.

What is your, how many miles have you accumulated? It's like 2.4 million, I think. It's crazy. It's crazy. And then, you know, I travel obviously a lot as well, and you and I commiserate with this. I mean, it's great, and it's also overwhelming. And you've been married how many years? I've been married 28 years.

Oh, so what date was that that you guys got married? We were May 14th, 1988. There you go. Okay, so I got married in 95. So I'm close, but not as close. Yeah, but how do you, so when people hear of my travel schedule, and this is the question I have for you, they always ask me, as soon as they kind of get a sense of how much I'm on the road, they say, do you have a family?

Yes. You know, it's, they don't mean to say it in that way, but it's like, oh, I feel bad for your family. And it, it like, this, this is a struggle. And I've talked about this a lot lately is that, and I'd like to learn from you, how do you manage the, the, the business? How do you manage the drive and the capture of what you have in business right now with the love that you have for your most intimate relationships? Yeah, it is, it is hard, but you know, technology today is better than it's ever been.

I mean, who would think that you could actually get on your cell phone and go live video and talk to your family? It's amazing. But I think that you have to have that support structure. My wife is an incredible person and very strong, probably way stronger than me. And I think that she's been a big guide in my life and support. And I couldn't be who I am without her. And then, you know, my kids are incredible as well, and that they found their own way and they're doing their own things. And I'm just, I'm supporting them as much as I can. And I think it's important that when you are home, that you're here. And that's probably the hardest thing is that when you're away, you're away, you know you're away. But when you're home, you better make sure you're here. And that's so important.

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is impacted as best as we can. But there's times that even when, you know, we're doing something as a family that something for business tugs on me. And, you know, like there's something timely and responsive. And have you been able, so for me, my wife sets all of the standards in the home about the relationship between business and,

and family by teaching my son, Hey, listen, this, you know, dad's gone for a little bit, he'll be back. And, you know, this is what, this is what happens. And like just setting a normal, normalcy about it. And I'm wondering if, how your wife does that? Yeah, I think she does as well. I mean, what she tries to do is kind of prioritize the importance for the kids and keep me in tune to, this is a big deal for them and you need to be here and so on. So work will always be there. It's not going away. And everybody's busy in life today.

We all have things that we're doing. And you really need to prioritize what is important because the eight to five job today, it doesn't need to be that way. I mean, I can wake up at five o'clock in the morning and get more done in the first hour and a half of the day than I can sitting in an office where people are interrupting me for eight hours a day. So I look at it, though, you know, if they've got a tennis match or, you know, my son's a competitive dancer and singer, and if he's performing, I'm going. If I'm home, I'm going. And if it's at 3 o'clock or it's 11 o'clock and I need to be at their school, I'm going. You know what? That's exactly what I'm doing as well.

Yeah. You got to put the priorities there. And there's nothing more important than family. And, you know, I've been fortunate that I have an incredible family on my wife's side and my family in Australia, who obviously I love, but I just, it's a different world we live in. And, you know, I can't be there every day. And I think the other big thing to do is friends. And friends today can be extremely powerful. And you need real friends and not Facebook friends, you know, that just, you know, Facebook friend me, that you don't know who they are. You know, everybody has that series of 8, 10, 12, whatever it is, real friends that you can

pick up the phone and talk to that are there for you, that can help you, that can pick your kids up, that can be there when you're not there. You need to find that. Yeah. And you've been probably, you and your partner, Dr. Greg Rose, have probably been the most influential people for the next generation of golf. Like I don't know of another company or agency that has credentialed or influenced the thinking around performance for golf as you guys. And maybe I'm wrong and I just don't know of other people, but that's how I think of you. In that pursuit, what has been the biggest cost for you? This is the dark side, right? Like, what is the biggest cost for you pursuing your way of living?

Well, I guess at first it was missing family and missing some of the things for the kids, you know, but I think that in order to be, you know, I think, heck, I mean, Einstein, I think, said this quote many years ago, and it was, you know, only one who devotes himself to a cause with his whole strength and soul can be a true master. For this reason, mastery demands all of a person. So if you really want to be the best, if you really are passionate about something, you're going to need to know that you're going to have to give it your all. And unfortunately, there are going to be consequences for that. And you've just got to know how to manage those consequences. But if

you're giving it at all, you'll figure it out. You know, what would come up for me often was when I would work with people in adventure sports that are doing really the most dangerous things or working in the most dangerous environments is that others, when I would describe some of the projects that I'd be working on or the feet that somebody was trying to go for or test themselves, the response would be this, God, those people are crazy. And it's what they've done though is exactly what you just touched on is that they've had a vision, they've had an idea, they crystallized it, and they gave all of themselves to it. Yeah. selves to it. And I think that people call that crazy. And you've done that. And you've done it maybe in an environment that isn't physically dangerous. This is one of my things about golf

is that like, there's no physical danger. If you don't perform well, it's more ego and money that's on the line. Those are the two. I'd love to hear your take on it. But it sounds like you've done that same exact thing is that you've chipped all in, you've brought all of yourself into your craft, but then thereby you've influenced the next generation and maybe five generations from now of what golf will look like. Well, yeah, I think we have. And because we saw a void, you know, and, you know know it was actually expressed to us by tiger woods believe it or not i mean tiger woods was the first athlete or so-called athlete that really came to golf with a different perspective so here was a guy that was giving it his all and and you know he was the first guy that was talking about working out and getting stronger and doing

mental emotional training and and you know sitting back and reflecting on his days and actually meditating and I mean this was unheard of in golf people were like why would you do that I mean most people thought that hey don't work out because you're gonna get tight you won't be able to swing the golf club you know and here's a guy that just changed the paradigm and we saw that and we kind of jumped on it in that we need to, you know, facilitate a network of people that have the right information. And if we do that and we push that out there, it will filter down to the average player. So what we've learned from dealing with

the best, we've been able to take that all the way down. And really, my passion today is kids. And unfortunately, in this country, 70% of kids quit their sport by the age of 13. And every sports participation is declining. And it's declining because of a lot of reasons. But a lot of it is coaching. It's that the coaching isn't there. It's not understanding what they're going through today. And we need to change that, you know? So knowing what you know now, if all of the pros that you've worked with, the people that you've certified and coached,

and the number of golfers that you've touched as a businessman and also as a craftsman, what guidance would you hope that the next generation gets right? More so than golf, but what do you hope that the next generation gets right? the fear of failure. You know, I think that most people are scared to take the jump and the leap. There's, I see this a lot and that they're scared to make a mistake because there's a camera on them or there's people on them or what have you and they don't want to. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. So this is something I'll talk about that I think we all have a fundamental decision

in our lives, which is either to approach success or avoid failure. And most people, I think, have this model of a fear of looking bad, which is avoiding failure. And so you're using golf and you're hoping that what they get right is not a better swing, but a better psychological model. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, what I'm trying to do is put all the pieces together and then, you know, listen, everybody's going to make their mind up. But if it's based on scientific fact, which we have, we have thousands of golfers data, and it's based on a successful approach by looking at everything and having an advisory board that's got your back when you don't know or tells you you're wrong, then you can start to whittle down and come up with a plan of attack that will really change

something. And we're not scared to fail. I mean, I've turned great golfers into good golfers, and I've turned good golfers into great golfers. I failed many times, but I've never been scared. And I've apologized, and I've tried to put them on the right track and it might have been sending them to another coach or sending them a different pathway. But if you're scared to fail, you'll never really commit. You'll never really put yourself out there and you'll never get to where you ultimately want to go. It sounds so trite and I don't think it is at all about the importance of letting it rip and going for it and bringing everything into it and seeing where it goes and being a really curious observer to learn and figure out what your potential looks like to really take a stab and step into something and bring all of you. It

sounds so kind of like, I don't know, it should be on a postcard somewhere. It probably is. Yeah, probably. Lots of them. So how do you help people?. Yeah, lots of them. So how do you help people? I've got lots of ways I think about it, but I'd love to hear how you help people stand up and take a shot at life, either

in a grand way or in a very particular like, hey, I need to raise my hand at this board meeting because I've got an idea that I think could really impact the direction of my company or to be an entrepreneur or to say that intimate thing to a loved one that is difficult to say. Like, how do you teach this? I mean, you build the right foundation. You surround them with people, you know, you build the right team to get them where they want to go. And whether it's an elite level athlete or just a junior that's starting.

And that team might be the parent itself. And you've got to educate the parent. You know, most parents today are not educated. They're doing things to their kids that they absolutely shouldn't be doing. And if they knew it, they wouldn't do it. But we're so driven to help and to give a better life for our kids that we want the best for them. And in many cases,

we're not giving them the right things. So to me, it's creating an education protocol. It's developing a resource where it's tested. It works. We know it works. And a support structure around them. It's the foundation. Okay. So pass some of this insight on to parents i think the same thing if most parents knew what i knew about elite sport they would probably not be pushing their kids well exactly i mean you know it's amazing an article came out recently in australia the number one reason why a kid quits sport is the drive home in the car from the game oh no doubt well and like I don't know, in gymnastics and these types of sports where over-involvement is easy, golf certainly, and figure skating, and single sports basically, tennis. The ride home, what I help parents do is have like, do not talk about sport on the ride

home. Yes, exactly. Talk about anything other than sport. But so what do you, if you could teach some parents about what you've learned, what do you pass on? Well, you need to listen. You need to be really good at that. You know, it's easy to jump in and give advice, you know, but you know as well as I do when you hit those teenage years, they know everything anyway. So you need to, and you need to listen and try and help them make the right decision. So, you know, one of the things I think with the kids of today is that they need to make the decision themselves. And you need to support it either way. You can certainly step back and say, hey, I disagree with what you're doing. But it's your decision.

And, you know, you've obviously thought about this. And this is what you ultimately want to do, then I'm there for you. But just so that you know, so that if they come back complaining and moaning, you can say, well, remember when we had that talk, I disagreed with your approach. So you've got to be, you can't always,

you got to put your almost business hat on as well as a parent. I mean, we're always going to want to dive in and help lift our kids up it's just the nature it's it's human nature to help people but sometimes you actually have to let them figure it out on their own and this i think this approach that you're i'm nodding my head you know saying that yes because this approach gives people repetitions at failure at a young age when the cost is not dramatic. It introduces a little bit of pain and then introduces them getting reps at dealing with

adversity. Yeah. And, you know, I'm a little disturbed only because, you know, we're kind of in this culture today of, you know, I remember my son when this about five, six years ago when he was playing soccer. And I played soccer, and I'd stand on the sidelines, and I'd be yelling, and parents would be looking at me like, what are you doing? And you can't talk at the soccer game. And then they would go, well, I'd go, what's the score? And they'd go, well, we don't keep score. And then my son would come running by, and he'd go, Dad, it's 5-0.

We're winning 5-0. He was keeping score. But we're kind of got this culture that everybody gets a trophy and everybody wins. And I think it sets a false precedent because life isn't like that. And more than anything, they may go on to become an elite level athlete. They may go on into college and decide to do something else. But life, you don't always get a trophy. And you need to know how to deal with adversity. And when somebody says no, you need to know how to put that in perspective. You know, to me, in today's world, most people that disagree with us or say bad things about what we do, they're either uneducated, they don't know what we do, or they're threatened by what we do. We're saying something that they don't, you know,

which gets back to they're uneducated. So, you've got to educate them. Yeah. Okay. Giving people experience with adversity, you know, is the way to help them really figure out how to deal with pain and challenge and fear. And I'm nodding my head again, like, yeah, I'm right on with this. Okay. So on that note, if we just deepen this a bit on your philosophy, is there one phrase that guides your life? Wow. One phrase that guides... You know what? I don't know if there's one phrase. There's probably a phrase. I love the feeling of being a child at play.

Maybe that's not a guide for my life, but because I'm so involved with my kids, I mean, watch a kid at play. Go to the park sometime. Just watch them and just see the happiness and the fun they're having. And to me, I think what guides me more than anything is you need to be having fun. And it's a small word. You know, it gets back to my F words and it's a small one, but it means so much.

And if you're not, if every day that you're doing something that you don't like to be doing, figure out how to get rid of it. You know, and maybe you need to take 30 minutes and deal with that a day, but then figure out the things that are fun and weave them into your life. It's so important. Yeah. And so the idea of having a philosophy really resonates with me. It's something that, you know, it's been around a long time and some of the greatest thinkers in the world and most influential people in the world have a very clear philosophy about what they stand for. And it's one of the things I've learned working alongside Coach Carroll is that he's got a very crisp philosophy and he just lives it in every way that he knows how to. And so the reason I'm sharing that is that fun, if that's

like the center word that kind of cuts to it for you, as soon as a businessman, you're challenged with a big deal or you're challenged with an opportunity that could be very difficult when you've got to make a critical decision, I would imagine that what you do is you go, yeah, okay, okay, this is getting good now, as opposed to, oh, no, oh, no, I have to do what? Yeah, exactly. So it oh, no, oh, no, I have to do what? Yeah, exactly.

So it's like pressure, right? So it's like feeling pressure or feeling nervous. I mean, that to me tells me that something good is happening. So, you know, because if you're nervous, that means that you've put yourself in a situation that something cool is about to happen. I don't know what it is. I'm kind of nervous. But if I go with this and just let it happen, something good is about to happen. I don't know what it is. I'm kind of nervous. But if I go with this and just let it happen, something good is going to happen.

So in business, every day we deal with different things. And as we grow and as we're getting into other sports other than golf and so on, if it's not fun for me to do, then I've got someone on my team that I know would love to do that. Yeah, there you go. I love that. That is awesome. Okay. I would just challenge you on one thing if I could be so presumptuous. The word nervousness, when you start to feel like butterflies or sick to your stomach or that little kind of edge in muscle twitch and shake and that tremor and your breathing changes, your heart rate goes up and all that.

I think that that's what you're likely referring to as nerves, but that's not nerves. It's just that your body is switched on a bit. And if you don't label it nervous and you just say, yeah, look at that. My body switched on. All right, cool. So that's one of the frames that I help people kind of reinterpret what is happening with their body. And when you're, yeah, when your body switches on, you get to say, all right, I'm in it now. Yeah, here we go.

That's really cool. Yeah. All right. So is there one word that cuts to what you understand best? What I understand best. Or what you do the best. I think what I do the best is listen. I think I'm really good at that.

And that was probably partly, you can drill that back to when I was a kid in that, you know, I had to listen. I had to be aware of my surroundings. I had to know who was in the room and at every point. So I would say I have great focus in terms of not intense focus on one thing, but maybe perspective focus. I see things as a 360. I'm able to kind of separate myself, detach myself from the moment

and see it from a bigger perspective. I think that's probably what i do best that's how'd you develop that skill you know from failing i think from from learning from mistakes but not being afraid to try something um i think that you see this every day on tour i mean you know i think about jordan spieth has had this incredible year, this young player. I mean, 22 years old and he won $20 million this year. I mean, it's just amazing. And, you know, they had a video of him a couple weeks ago where they show him talking to the golf ball and kind of yelling at himself.

And they put all this confirmation together. And it's, oh, Jordan, and this and that. And in many ways, that's what I saw there is I saw he was able to pull himself out of this incredible pressure moment, give himself a little yell, and then get right back in. And it was so cool to watch. And I remember that from Tiger, you know, Tiger, in the era, the early 2000s, when he just dominated this game so well, he had this temper, and he would have this little tantrum, but only 30 seconds and it was it was almost a way to detach himself from the moment see what's going on and then jump right back in

and there's been instances throughout golf that that's happened and there was a guy called Michael Campbell who won the U.S. Open many years ago and with three holes to go he was a nervous wreck and he would run into the port-a-john and everybody thought he was going to the bathroom but he was actually taking his finger out in front of him and bringing it watching it come to his nose to centralize his focus so that was kind of cool yeah oh there's so many strategies to kind of you know release and and regroup there's so many that we can do but the idea of having awareness that it's time to release and then a strategy to regroup is really cool. Yeah. And I think, don't elite teams do that?

I mean, obviously, Seattle does that. I mean, I think some of the Navy SEALs that I've talked to and listened to, they seem like they're experts at that. I mean, with what they have to do in life and the decisions they have to make, their ability to be able to see things that others don't is just incredible. Okay. So as one of the biggest movers in the industry of golf for preparing and performance, and when you were a kid, you were hungry to be part of the group and maybe be better than others. And then you flipped your model to really help people be their best, whatever that is. What are you hungry for now in life and in your craft? What are you most hungry for? Wow, that's a great

question. I think I'm most hungry because I feel like I'm only just getting started. Oh my God, isn't that fun? Look at what you've done already. It really is. I don't think I've even started. You know, I look back at golf and we've got this incredible group of men and women around the world that are out there and we've developed tools for them to be better at doing what they do and to go out and golfers and so on and help golfers. And I'm going, we are just right at the edge. We're not even close to putting our foot forward yet because it really, think of sport and every sport. And, you know, golf, we've created this certification of coaching. We've developed these junior pathways where, you know, parents can actually see where their kid is without

telling them they're bad or good. They can just see what they need to do next. And that could be done for every sport. And I'm going, let's do it. There you go. There's a huge opportunity right there in front of you. Yeah. Yeah. And it's really exciting to think about what the next three, four, five years is going to look like as we embed the internet of things and technology into the immediate feedback

loop for people to be better and more aware of when they're on and off, both physically, technically, and mentally. This is a, I don't know where you are on this, but I'm so excited about what's possible in the next. Oh, I am too. Yeah. I'm huge into technology. I mean, I look at a lot of it.

And one area that really amazes me is the science of the brain. And we're starting now to start to understand how people are thinking and how to trigger that. And that could be the biggest jump in anything we do. Yeah. After this call, let's have another call because there's some really cool stuff. Okay. Okay. So, we've talked about your model about helping people let it rip and face down fear and not be so afraid. Is there a time when you realized what you were most afraid of in life? Yeah, I think I've been most afraid, as much as I say helping people get through failure, I've been most afraid of failure, of what, you know, of not being measured against my peers or not stepping up. You know, I think, I think what spurred me on to that was,

you know, when I was 30 years old, I got nominated as the youngest ever top 100 teacher by Golf Magazine in America. And, and I was shocked. I was like, my gosh, I can't even believe this. And, you know, they wanted to do an article with, with me and this guy, Paul Runyon, who at the time was an incredible teacher. I think he was like 88 years old. And it was almost like you're not worthy. It was like the old, you know, the movie, You're Not Worthy. And I was like, wow, what have I done?

And now I've got to step up to this. And it was that fear of not being good enough or others thinking I wasn't, which was kind of strange because you would think that when you get that, it would be like, hey, I've arrived. Look at me. No, that's not. Yeah, that hasn't been my experience. Have you, in a previous episode with a violinist and a composer named Kai Kite, we talked. I listened to that. Yeah. So that's, that. So that idea about the imposter syndrome, it sounds like it's a terrible, I think it's a terrible phrase

but it captures that idea like all of a sudden you look around and you say, whoa they're going to find out that I'm barely, whoa someone's going to find me out now. And is that what you experience? I think so. Because you know I'd seen, there was other teachers that I looked up to that were not that much older than me and then that were a lot older than me that weren't on that list.

And I was like, how the heck can I be there and them not? They're like my mentors, you know. And that was, you know, that was a wake-up moment for me that said, you know, you need to step your game up and you need to prove that you are worthy of this. So, are you still operating from that place? Like, I want to show people and I want to be better than others? No, I'm beyond that now. You know, I think that there's a lot of people out there that do amazing things. In golf specifically, there's a lot of great teachers, but there's not a lot of great coaches.

And there's a lot of great teachers, but there's not a lot of great coaches. And there's a big difference there. And that is that, to me, we've got one of the only sports where the coach or the teacher never watches the student play. I mean, we give them a lesson on the driving range and we go, okay, have a nice day. See you. And let me know how it come, you know, how you do when you go out and play for five hours. Now, what other sport does the coach do that? The coach practices with the team. They watch him play basketball. In Coach Carroll's case, practices all week, and then they perform on the field, and he gets to watch them

under play. There's a big difference there. So elite level coaching for golf, how to really help people get better is you need to play with them. You need to watch them play because you don't know if what you're doing is working unless you do that. Yeah, there you go. That's really cool. And I think that that's actually plagued the sports psychology industry quite a bit is that traditionally, and I realize this didn't work for me, is that there would be an office setting.

Someone would come in. We would deconstruct and really have a deep understanding of what it would take for a person to let it rip and go for it and have the mental skills to be able to adjust and adapt to the stuff that they can't prepare well for, or that they were trying to prepare for, but things always change. And then they come back, I don't know, a week later, two weeks later, whatever that timeframe is, and describe it. And it's like, I don't know, a week later, two weeks later, whatever that time frame is, and describe it. And it's like, wait a minute, let's get our feet dirty together and see what that looks like when you're in the middle of it. And once that started to change with coaches and athletes and executives saying, yeah, let's bring physical, technical, and mental together, it feels like it's an incredible accelerant for people to improve.

I totally agree. I think the mental has been missing for a long time. I mean, in golf, you know, there are quite a few people in that space, especially at the elite level. You know, there's a lot of people that will say that golf is 90% mental, and it is when you get to a certain level. But until you have the skill set to play at that level, it's difficult to say that to me. Yeah, at the elite level, the artistry and the ability to compete at that level takes such a mental part of the game. Because everyone's physically and technically sound. Yes, exactly. Yeah, I mean, they can all hit it 300 yards and they can move the ball every which way.

So, yeah, that's the big factor. So, if we drive into your mindset, what is your ideal competitive mindset? What's it like when you're at your best? It's unconscious. So, you know, I think it can only occur when you're not thinking about movement. You've got to be into the moment. So I think anybody that performs at the highest level, you know, I guess I've had this experience a couple of times myself. I mean, I actually tied the course record at St. Andrews in 19, what was that, 1995.

I shot 63. And I had this caddy who was this great Scottish caddy and he would just look at me and say, see that bush, hit it over that bush. See that tree, hit it at this. There's no trees at St. Andrews, but see that bunker, hit it over that bunker. He would just tell me what to do and I just did it.

Now, if I'd have walked up and looked at where he had told me to hit it, there is no way I would have hit it there. I just wouldn't. It was just trouble everywhere. But he had assessed my skill set and said, okay, you can do this. Hit it there. And that was one of these unconscious moments when I was just listening to him and going, okay, there? And he goes, yeah. And bam, I would hit it there. And I hit it unbelievable, you know? And I was like, how do you recapture that, you know? Okay. So then as a entrepreneur, what does that look like now for you?

I think now it's having the right, I wouldn't say plan of attack, because I think plans can sometimes put you on the rails. And I'm a little bit more of a outside the box guy. I don't like to be in the rails. So I think in a business world, I think you've got to have a picture in your mind of where you want to be. Like you've got to have that and how you get there is going to change. So no matter what you put down in a business plan,

whatever, we've got a lot of strategists that look at financial plans and business plans and they pull these numbers and do these spreadsheets. And you can't even bring me in the room when they're doing that because I'm like, I can't handle that. You guys figure that out. But to me, you're just pulling numbers out of the air. Things are going to change so much. Now I know why they need that, but I'm like, I need to be more of one of these people that has an awareness of my environment and where I'm trying to go. And then I go and it's passion. I'm very passionate about what I do and what I want to get done. And that's what leads me. That's what drives me. And do you, do you write it down? Do you write down what that image or vision or? Yes. Yeah. I mean, I have picture boards and I'm a visual guy as well. So I think about photographs of where I want to see myself. I write things down. There was a great, you bring that up, there was a tour player recently that wrote on a piece of paper in his wallet and he looked at it every day and it said,

I will be on the PGA Tour in 2015. And he did it. And he posted this on Twitter and I was like, that's awesome. Every day he would look at that. He was driven towards that. How he got there, he just kept doing the things he knew he was good at doing, you know? Yeah. Do you coach to asset or do you coach to increase liability? I'm not sure what, I'm not sure I know what you mean. Okay. Do you coach like an asset or liability model for me is like, do you coach people to exploit their strengths or do you coach people to get better at the thing that they're not very good at? Oh, exploit their strengths.

Yeah, me too. It's like an easy question. I see so many folks that want to understand what's broken and try to fix that. And that's just seems to not work. many tour players mess up a simple chip shot from just off the green yet if you put them in a bunker against the face or you put it in the deep rough they knock it two feet you know and you're going how how is this possible i mean you know here's this basic shot and because they just don't practice it they assume they've got it and then under pressure when pressure kicks in all of a sudden they haven't done it for a while it is a basic shot and they leave it 10 feet short or knock it 10 feet long and you know know, see it all the time. So how do you keep yourself so mentally strong as being, you know, responsible for the next generation of teachers of a sport that people deeply love and having the financial rewards and risk involved in being an entrepreneur?

Like, how do you keep yourself mentally strong? I feel like I owe it to the people that I've educated. In other words, if I'm going to be an educator and put myself out there and train people to do what we've done or what we've learned, I need to keep learning so that I can keep changing that education model. And one thing I'm so proud of at TPI is every time we do the class, it changes. It's never the same. And the reason being is because we learn from everybody that's in the class and we learn from every country we go to and every nationality we speak to that there are different ways to get things done. God, I love that. I mean, it's like you've just hit on a really strong

human need is to belong and be part of something and to take care of others. And what a really cool community that you're creating and a position you've put yourself in to take care of others and to be the custodian for almost owing them your intelligence and effort and risk-taking and courage to continue growing. And when I hear that, I go, God, that's exactly what I've seen in teams that are amazing. Or even when one, two, three people or large groups of people in companies or sport franchises is they really care about the people they're around. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's what, isn't that what we're trying to do in family too? Yeah, it is. It is. You know, and I think in many ways, you know, family is everything, right? You know, the structure, I mean, I can't, I mean, my kids, everybody's kids are amazing. But when I look at what mine are doing and the way they're doing it, I just stand back in awe. And there's nothing more I love than going to one of their games or one of their events and watching them learn and watch what they've become from six years old to my son's 13 and my daughter's 16. that they're becoming and having a little bit in there, but really letting them go,

letting them find their way, just steering them, guiding them as best I can, but not making the decision for them, you know? Good job, Dad. That sounds awesome. Okay, so in golf, let's see if we can, here I go again. We're at an hour and 15 minutes, like somewhere in that range. I love this conversation, Dave. So thank you.

What, okay, in golf, what are the great, what are the most important mental skills? I think in terms of mentally, you know, I think composure, if that is a mental skill, it's I think awareness. And I think in more than anything, you've got to have, you got to have belief in yourself, you know, and so many golfers don't, they're trying to be somebody they're not. And so I see that so many times with kids that don't get to where they want to go, especially good players, you know, I'm talking kids that are looking for a college scholarship or want to be the next Roy McIlroy or Tiger Woods. They're constantly searching and looking at them, but the ones that really succeed are the ones that know who they are.

Do you have a sense of how much people do for imagery on tour? I think some guys are incredibly good at it. I think in general, most golf professionals are incredibly good at it I think in general most golf professionals are really good at it and the reason being is because it is such a visual sport I mean you're trying to hit a little white ball that's stationary to a target that's you know as far as you know hundreds of yards away and you know there's obstacles in the way you got to move it turn it you've got to be creative you've got to look at the wind the environment the there's obstacles in the way. You got to move it, turn it. You've got to be creative. You've got to look at the wind, the environment. There's so many things that come into play. So you use the word creativity. And you did something really creative is that you built

a business. And I'd love to hear this story arc as we're wrapping this up. But you built this business. You had a vision, you had an idea, you took a shot at it. You brought some people around that were really intelligent and you, you have this way that you stay with it, which is to do good for others. And, but you did this, something really creative is that you went to a title sponsor, Titleist. And, and can you tell, like, that's a business decision? Well, it is, you know, we, we were fortunate in that, you know, I, as a golf professional, Titleist is an incredible golf company and the CEO of the company was, I think is, is an amazing person. His, his ability to look at things that are happening on a big scale and bring them down to reality.

When we presented this to him, he clearly saw the vision. In fact, he saw it clearer than we saw it. And the things that we were saying we wanted to do, he wrapped it all up and put it in a totally different perspective that actually blew my mind. And it's a funny story because, you know, when we showed him that this is what we're looking at doing and he turned around and said, okay, I'll support you guys. I want to be a part of this. I think it's the future of golf instruction and I'm all in. And by the way, it's going to help sell a ton of golf balls. And, you know, I was almost, I almost drove the car off the road when he said that. Cause I was like, well, what do you mean by golf balls? I'm trying to help.

How does that work? And he said, it's kind of a funny story. He said, well, it's really simple. You know, Titleist is a golf ball company. We own about 40% of the golf ball market. And the average golfer, when they play golf, they lose about five or six golf balls around. So the way I see it, if you can help people understand the physicality of their bodies, understand how to keep playing this game for longer then chances are they're going to keep losing golf balls and chances are they're going to buy hours so i'm all in that is so funny that is that's awesome i was like wow you are really intelligent and that was

not the reason why i brought you into the conversation and uh i wanted you to do this so in a roundabout way it was uh an amazing thing. By having Tidelist as a sponsor, it immediately gave us credibility in the golf world. They're one of the big golf companies, and that was a huge bonus for us, is to have somebody support this at a time when most people were golf fitness. What is that? Yeah, there you go. Okay, rounding out here. Pressure okay uh rounding out here pressure comes from wow pressure comes from fear fear of not being good enough fear of failure fear of failure yeah it all comes down to all comes down to family there you go the crossroad for me was

uh the crossroad for me was uh wow that's a good one the crossroad for me was? The crossroad for me was, wow, that's a good one. The crossroad for me. Crossroad for me was making the decision to leave Africa and come to America and not go to Australia. That's cool. Yeah. So that seems like such a fundamental decision in your life to go to the big country. Well, it was a huge shift because if I had gone to Australia, I would have been living with my brother and sister, which would have been hell.

No, I wouldn't have been. They're great people. But it would have been, I would have been subject to what they wanted. I was the youngest and I would have been involved with their lives, not my life. So it was the crossroads. It was you either go there and live their lives and the life in the cities, or you branch out. You do something that no one's done.

Love it. Success is? Oh, success. That's an interesting one. And I think success, oh oh that's i know there's so many forms of it you know i i think success probably to me is is um is helping somebody you know what i i would not have thought that from you knowing you um but because of like like the the world that you're living in but after this conversation i go that's that fits yeah that fits your model beautifully

yeah i think so okay so uh last question uh before i um before we kind of wrap up is like how do you define mastery like how do you articulate mastery in your life? I, you know, I think we've touched on it a couple of times here. I think mastery to me is having a great self-awareness. I think it's being able to perform or put yourself out there without fear of failure. And I think you got to go back to where you were from, your roots. And that that is is mastery is like a child at play you know they they're not they're not conforming they're they're they're creating they're doing things they're happy they're fun i mean just go to any park and watch a kid for a while that's mastery i love this and then how do you help people increase? What do you do? Better question. What do you do to increase self-awareness? Is there the world and you look out the window, you realize, wow, what an amazing place, world we live in, especially when you're up there.

And I think it's a great way to reflect and look back at what you've done and what you're about to do. Dave, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I've enjoyed this conversation so much. Like, it's been great. It felt easy. It felt fluid. It was just like, ah, just so good. And there's so-

Well, thank you too. I have the utmost respect for you. I think what you're doing is amazing. And any way I can help, please feel free to call. That's honored. I appreciate that, David. And so where can people find out more about what you're up to? You know, our website is simply mytpi.com, which is M-Y-T-P-I.com. And, you know, that is where we have information on our education. And that's more of a B2B. That's for golf pros, medical and fitness. But for the average person out there that's interested, you know, find a TPI certified expert, find somebody that we've trained to help you get to where you want to go. And there's some incredible people that can really if you're you know if you're in pain or you're you know you

want to get stronger or you you know and golf is your passion i i don't i don't think there's a better group of people out there do you have any social media that you're that you're using right now yeah so you know all the social media is on that site, and it's just MyTPI. So you can find us at Facebook and Twitter, and it's the same hang tag. It's just MyTPI. Okay. When is your next conference coming up? Yo, I leave to go to Australia on Monday. So in Melbourne, if anybody's down there and they want to come, I'll be in Melbourne.

Greg is on his way to England right now. He's speaking for the British PGA, and then off to China where we have three in China. So it's just, we're all over. But if you go on the website, you can see the seminars that we give. And there's a calendar of all the events and where we're at. God, I love it. What a game changer you guys have created. This just fires me up to say, okay, today, let's really roll up our sleeves and see what

we can figure out in our own lives and craft, inspired by what you've been able to do for the world of golf. Well, that's awesome. Thank you. All right, brother. Have a great day. I'll talk to you soon. Okay. Okay. Bye. Thank you for listening. And the goal of this is to learn and maybe we can learn from people that are highly talented and intelligent about what they do. And my hope is that we can pass it on and we can just pay it forward. And one way we can obviously do that is to share it with other people. And my hope is that you'll listen again if you enjoyed this. And the second is that you'll tell someone about it, either in social media or friends or email, however you do that.

And just with all clarity, there's no money on the table for me on this. And this is purely a labor of love to be able to learn and to keep me sharp and connected to people that I respect and care about and to be able to pay that forward and pass it on. So however you can pay this forward or move it along, I'd be greatly appreciated. And there's some pretty concrete things you can definitely do.

You can subscribe to the podcast if you haven't done so already, which is on iTunes. You can go to findingmastery.net as well. And if you are so inclined, if you go to iTunes and then you find a way to write a review, it's a little tricky to get to it. But if you can take just a few moments and write a review, I guess that helps with the algorithm that iTunes generates to be able to keep us top of mind on iTunes. All right. So you can also follow some of my thoughts and stuff that I'm passing forward through Twitter at Michael Gervais. And we also have a Facebook, uh, site, which is, let's see, facebook.com of course, forward

slash finding mastery. Okay. I hope you've enjoyed the work that Dave Phillips has spent his life to understand. And let's, um, let's go kick ass. All right. Uh, share it with your loved ones and hope to be able to hear from you online. I hope you have a great day. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of finding mastery with us.

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