Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - David, Special Operations Sniper

Episode Date: June 13, 2018

This week’s conversation is with David (leaving his last name out for security purposes.)He's been a top special operations sniper for more than 10 years. David has four combat tours in support of Operation Enduring Freedom Afghanistan and one tour in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom.During the last 21 years he has served in a variety of leadership roles that include; Fire Team Leader, Senior Weapons Sergeant, Tactics and Weapons instructor, Team Sergeant Air Operations NCOIC.David’s won countless awards along the way and just won the USASOC Sniper competition (top completion for snipers in all branches of special ops).He’s been asked multiple times how he won and he attributes it to his mental game!This conversation is a treat.We get to learn from someone truly on the razor’s edge; putting his life on the line. We talk about what goes through his mind in the most pivotal moments, where everything is at stake, including his and others’ lives around him.We discuss the difficulties that come with transitioning back and forth between combat and every day life, his addiction to adrenaline, and how he manages dealing with some of the difficult sights and sounds he’s witnessed.I have the utmost respect for the people who choose to serve our country and put their lives on the line to protect others and I hope this conversation gives you a glimpse into what that sacrifice is really all about._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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But I find the most gratifying effect is how many people I've saved. How many lives have I changed? That's way more important to me. Welcome back or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast. I'm Michael Gervais. And by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist and the co-founder of Compete to Create.

And the whole idea behind this podcast is to learn from people who have dedicated their life efforts towards mastery. And what we're wanting to do is dig to understand the mental skills that they use to build and refine their craft, but also understand the psychological framework that they operate from. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort.

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And that's why I've been leaning on David Protein bars. And so has the team here at Finding Mastery. In fact, our GM, Stuart, he loves them so much. I just want to kind of quickly put them on the spot. Stuart, I know you're listening. I think you might be the reason that we're running out of these bars so quickly. They're incredible, Mike. I love them. One a day, one a day. What do you mean one a day? There's way more than that happening here. Don't tell. Okay. All right. Look, they're incredibly simple. They're effective. 28 grams of protein, just 150 calories and zero grams of sugar. It's rare to find something that fits so

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And that can't be understated, not just for strength, but for energy and focus, recovery for longevity. And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's David, D-A-V-I-D, protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. Now, this week's conversation is with David,

and I'm leaving his last name out for security purposes. He's currently a green beret and special operator. His craft is that of a sniper. Let's just leave it at that. And he's been at this level for a long time, over 10 years. And he has four combat tours, just to give some context, in support of Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan and one tour in Operation Iraqi Freedom. And during the last 20-some years, he's served in a variety of leadership roles that include fire team leader, senior weapons sergeant, tactics and weapons instructor. And he's done it at the elite level. And David's won countless awards along the way, including sniper competitions. That's his craft. He's good at it. He wins in competitions. And obviously he's winning in the amphitheater of war as well. And when I asked him how, he does attribute much of this to his mental game. And this conversation is a treat.

He understands the inner experience. He understands how to access to be able to do his craft at a consistent high level. And we get to learn from someone who's truly on the razor's edge. You know I talk about it. You know how much I value it. The razor's edge where things could go wrong, but you're right at your capacity and you're executing at a high level and he's putting his life on the line. That is something that we need to pay attention to in this context. We talk about what goes through his mind in the most

pivotal moments where everything is at stake, including his and others' lives around him. And we discuss the difficulties that come with transitioning back and forth between combat and everyday life. And all of us are in transition at one point or another. This conversation is for all of us. If we want to understand our capacity and get right to the edge, we need to learn from people who have been there. And that's what this conversation is about. He gets into his addiction to adrenaline and how he manages dealing with that, as well as some of the most difficult sights and sounds that he's witnessed. It's a beautiful conversation. And you know, I have the utmost respect for people who choose to serve countries to protect their people and to put their lives on the line to be

able to do that. And I hope this conversation gives you a glimpse inside of what he has sacrificed and what sacrifice is really about. And with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation with David. David, how are you? I'm great. How are you doing today? Cool. So I am, first of all, I want to say that I'm honored to have this conversation with you because I have incredible respect for the commitment you've made to your craft and the well-being of others. And with that being said, I'm fascinated and I don't have a real sense of what it takes to dedicate one's life to the industry and the craft that you have. So I just want to start with incredible respect and regard for what you've done. And then at the same time, ask for some forgiveness as I clunkily and maybe clumsily look for the right questions to ask you with all due respect, but with a rich curiosity about what

you do. Absolutely. Okay. So how do you describe to people what it is that you do? Well, I would say the best way to describe extreme marksmanship or sniping would be it's more of a religion, there are many different facets and different types of people that you want to get into a big fight, talk about which sniper system or caliber is best because everyone has their beliefs in what is the best. So it's a, it's a strong belief and a strong backing to everything that we do and to a systematic approach. That's, I guess that's the best way to describe long range marksmanship or sniping. Okay. And then it was in 1996 when you joined the army and then, then graduated from a special forces qualification course to be in the group that you're in. Is that fair to say? Yes. I've been in since 1996. There's been a couple different units I've been in, but this particular unit I've been in for the last 12 years.

Okay. So I went to a friend and asked, um, that is obviously in the military and said, Hey, who is at the tip of the arrow? Like who in the special operators that you're familiar with and work with that has a deep understanding is in the thick of it right now. And, um, you know, is well-respected amongst his or her peers to be at the tip of the arrow. And that's how we met. That's how this conversation came to be. So I'm going to ask you to like, I know humility is a big deal for operators, but why did you get that call to be that guy? Probably because I love teaching and through teaching, I think

people have a greater understanding of me and my abilities, I guess. And then throughout multiple deployments to Afghanistan or Iraq. That also builds your reputation. How many times were you in the amphitheater war? So I've been to Afghanistan four times and Iraq once. And when you're in any one of those, how long is a deployment for you? In this particular unit, we have relatively short deployments, mainly because our op tempo is insane. There's no days off. It's going very fast every day, all the time.

So you don't have a relaxation period. So they keep them usually from six months six months around to around 10 months. Okay. And there are outliers there, you know, shorter or longer, but that's general. So with those six to 10 month duration, and I'm imagining no, no days off or very few days off, is that, um, what is that like on, you know, day six month plus one or six month plus five? What is it like when you're done with that intensity of a life? Done or at that period? Yeah, not like done, done, but like when you're coming back or you're returning from the amphitheater to, um, normal life, if you will, if there's such a thing for you.

Uh, it's almost like the shoe may drop. Uh, so you, you, you're always keeping, uh, an alert status. Uh, that's also a downfall to our job because we never get to really fully relax. We're always ready to go again, but you know, there's a massive amount of joy to come back and see the you know see the family and get to know everyone again and friends and but uh you know leaving people there to basically continue on the missions also a pull so it's kind of pulling you back in what a what a remarkable phrase that you just said to get to know family and friends again and is that because you're different or they're different i mean you know one day to the next we are fundamentally different but it's hard to notice but when you return after 10 months you know there is incredible change that takes place for people.

Funny enough, my wife was in the military as a medic, and she was deployed in 15 months. It was insane. It is harder, in my opinion, to be the person at home. I know that sounds kind of funny, but it changes the person at home also and uh for me you know it's almost i mean i'm kind of the star of the show i'm the person deployed but the person at home has to deal with a whole bunch of different you know i systems you know you have to raise the kid run the house or pay all the bills yourself and there's no partner anymore. So she's changing. She's a different person by the time they get back. I have gone through whatever on my deployments. So when I get back,

I'm a, I'm a totally different person. Okay. All right. Let's, let's, let's dive into this space. I didn't think we'd start with transition, but this is remarkable because so many people in this digitally transforming 24 by 7, fast-paced Insta gratification, no one stable job for a lifetime world that we're in right now. Transitions are really important. I don't know if you know this, but like 87% of NFL athletes, the tenure in the NFL, National Football League, is less than three years. And so they've worked their whole life to play for, on average, three years. 87%, let's call it the high 80s, after two years of retirement are broke, divorced, or maybe even both. And so transitions are hard, even for the most skilled.

And transitions are very hard for the rest of us as well, where we're not sure exactly what the next vine is that we're going to grab. We're not exactly sure what the end of the bridge looks like on the other side. So how do you, like, can you teach, or maybe you say, no, Mike, I suck at this. Like, I am not good at transitions. But the insight that I'm a changed person, and so is my partner, is a remarkable insight. So I'd love if you could pull on that thread just a little bit further and teach wherever you are in the arc of doing transitions well.

You know, it's a, as we all know, we're, we're, we're pack animals. We're also creatures of habit. Uh, so when, when you're coming back and you're, you, you know, that you're different, they're, they're different. And you kind of, you kind of try to understand. So you get this honeymoon period that you're going to go through. And then from there, there's this, you know, inevitable disruption in, in what you think should be going on and what they think should be going on.

I love that. It's so, that's so true, right? Like phase one, honeymoon. Great. Phase two is like, what are you doing? Like I had my stuff together and then you came back. Oh wait, wait, wait, hold on. That's my life. That's my wife saying to me, you know, so after I come back from whatever. And so, yeah, that's exactly it. Like I had it together, you know, what i come back from whatever and so yeah that's exactly it like i had it together you know what are you doing so all right what right on the money what what is like the next phase is there well the next phase is you know trying to pull your mind totally from combat because you've been tuned up for so long that you know everything was normal you know that was that was life and now you don't have to now you don't have to you know set different patterns now you don't have to

analyze every human that walks by you now you don't have to you know generate different routes you don't run over rough spots on the road for fear of an IED. That transition is so tough to kind of get back to normal. God, that's a cool phrase, like tuned up for war. That's a really wonderfully tangible phrase. And what does it take to be tuned up for war? And how do you, gosh, what's the right way to ask this? Like, it's not tuned down. It's become maybe more sensitive to civilian rhythms as opposed to war rhythms. So that's a two-part question. And then, so how would you help me understand that?

Tuning up's easy. It is, huh? It is. Yeah, getting switched on for something that, well, let me not put this on you, but something you, do you love it? You know, my, my addiction in life is adrenaline and that rush. And it, and it, I was able, I didn't, I didn't know what I was actually doing. but if you can bring on that rush slowly and you have presence of mind, you'll hear people talk about things went in slow motion. And it is so true. And you are so fine-tuned.

Everything is perfect. And you don't make any mistakes. And everyone else sees that, wow, how did he do that? How did he jump up there? How do you do this? How do you make that shot? And for you, it was all slow motion. Right, right, right. The sweet spot here for human optimization, right? And but you had two points in there you talked about. And I knew I should have like written this down. But you said, like when the adrenaline rush was, was is coming on you do something to manage that what was that something that you just said if you can manage your your your breathing and you have good presence of mind then it it just kind of happened i didn't know what i was doing until afterwards uh working with performance psychologist and reading on combat and on killing and stuff like that. Studying what actually was happening.

Do you appreciate Grossman's work? I do. I don't want to insult him. It's a very dry read, but man, he's got so much information to put out. I'd say foundational books for um you know what the what kind of the art and psychology and consequences of killing you know like how that works for people and i think the book could have been a third shorter or maybe two thirds but um i i love it you it, you know? And so, okay. So you like those books and you slipped in there that you've done a bunch of work with in the performance psychology frame.

Have you done deep work on breathing? Have you done deep work on focus? Have you done deep work on imagery? Uh, where do you go on the mental skills training aspect of, of your craft? Well, I had to. So like you were saying earlier, being tuned up all the time, it's actually being in the sympathetic system, your response all the time is horrible for you. And I've actually got a decent amount of damage done to my brain and adrenal glands and everything else because of it.

I didn't know what I was doing because I'm always tuned up. I'm always ready to go. And I didn't know how to slip into the parasympathetic and give myself some downtime because no one likes to be in the parasympathetic. You know, you stutter a little bit. You're not as sharp. You know, you're clumsy. And, you know, you look like a fool to yourself, of course.

And so we like to stay on the edge. But it's such an important thing to learn how to get to that. So I realized I need to change because I'm just destroying my brain. And working with Kate at our unit performance psychologist she really started to open my mind to how powerful the brain is with just breathing alone and priming my body to do certain things either get up into an area or down into it just get into the zone whatever that zone is that you want okay what's up kate i hope you're listening. And yeah, that's really good. Okay. So there's macro rhythms and micro rhythms, right? So a macro rhythm of tuning up or switching on and then,

you know, deescalating down into a parasympathetic nervous rhythm. Like there's a macro, like almost like a peaking event when you return, it's like, okay, I need to be more parasympathetic sensitive. Right. And let's, let's de-jargon this a little bit. Sympathetic is on, return it's like okay i need to be more parasympathetic sensitive right and let's let's de-jargon this a little bit sympathetic is on and it's the fight flight freeze submission response in our in our in our brain and then parasympathetic is um the more of the the balance the off if you will it's not quite as clean as that but do you do do you have like a micro program where on a day-to-day rhythm you're looking for how to switch on via sympathetic systems and then how to switch off via parasympathetic systems? Like earlier, it's easy for me to switch on. But micro, as you were saying, I've fine-tuned it to where – and I'm not perfect at this by any means.

I can see the iceberg underwater. I just don't know how to handle it yet. I'm getting there. I shoot a lot of matches with firearms, either pistol or long-range matches, and each one of them require a different zone to be in for instance when i'm shooting long range prs i have to be my heart rate has to be anywhere from 60 to 80 beats anything more than that and i'm useless i miss targets and i can't compete everyone's just gonna blow by me but if i'm in that zone and i prime myself with proper breathing, you know, trying to dilate, you know, hold on to that dilate or dilate my blood system basically and, you know, lower the heart rate to get myself tuned up. My body is primed and ready to go and I find that I'm just sharp.

And if you go to the pistol realm or the three gun matches, I actually have to operate it from 100 to 120 beats per minute. And that's where I'm most effective. But get yourself there. And then in between, you have to lower yourself back down so you're not just exhausted by the final lane. What does your breathing training program look like? I work on it during times I don't need it to see if I can get my heart rate at the right time, especially like in the gym or, you know, just sitting here on the couch. I try to pick a target zone and get myself in it.

And so sometimes that's up. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Sometimes that's up. Sometimes that's down. I use four square or just basically slow in, fast out or reverse that to speed it up is fast in, slow out. And so when you say four square, you're talking about like another name for that is box breathing, like four in, four hold, four out, four pause, like an in pause, pause out pause each one for four yeah okay okay so and are you using

some sort of hrv or heart rate monitor to be able to map your how long it takes you to get into a particular rhythm uh i have a pulse ox that i use it's a um a device that goes under your finger and it'll, it shows you your oxygen and your, your pulse at the same time. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentus. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday, what you put in your body matters. And that's why I trust Momentus. From the moment I sat down with Jeff Byers,

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Okay. I want to go back to a question, David, when I asked you, why you, like, why did our mutual friends say tip of the arrow is David. And you were so casual, just like all the operators that I respect. They're like, you know, I don't know. I'm not sure. Well, I teach a lot, you know, like seriously, what is it? What? What is your crown jewel? What's the thing that others have recognized in you to be special? And I know that's going to be hard for you to say. And if you don't want to say it, I respect it. But I just really want to understand, are you great at moving targets, still targets? Are you great at being still as a sniper? Are you great at calculating distances and whatever, whatever? Is it your craft? Is it your mind? Is it the combination? Is it how clearly, clearly you think under pressure? Like what is,

what are the crown jewels that have helped you become and be great or recognized as that? That is a hard question, I guess. Uh, you can't embarrass me until you ask me to talk about me. So it's a, it's a difficult thing. So I can't tell you what other to talk about me so it's a it's a difficult thing so i can't tell you what other people you know why they hold me high or not but uh i i would say if i had to guess it's because the way i do act under pressure and sheer experience i, because I've been shooting since I was six. And I have a touch of obsessive compulsive disorder with a mix of perfectionist. And that definitely helps hone your tasks. Does that get in the way of normal rhythm of life for you?

Like, I don't know if the spoons aren't exactly right in your drawer, or is it more facilitated towards, um, your craft? I have kind of mutated it to, I get my relax or my satisfaction from honing the craft. Uh, so I, I reload my own bullets. I i i make sure my guns are clean religiously the way that i like to do it and that all kind of relaxes me it's kind of a little safety net mental safety net that i have do you have a cat yes i do what's your cat's name well it's my son's cat but it is uh dash he named it after a reindeer how old is your son he is seven okay one or do you have more no that's all that i can really uh that i have a mental capability to to handle okay so do you want your son to choose

special ops or warfare as a way of living? Or how do you think about raising your son for his future? What he does, I don't care. He's more intelligent than I am. He misunderstands that. So there's a difference between being smart and intelligent. His ability to learn is past mine. It's amazing.

But his experience isn't what mine is, obviously. So he says he's smarter than me. But I don't care. I have a few things that I require from my son. He can swim. He can defend himself. He knows another language and an instrument. I don't care what else he does after that. Is the world dangerous? Oh yeah, absolutely. And what parts of the human experience are most dangerous in your mind? Humans. Are you talking about like humans themselves?

What makes humans dangerous? Yeah, exactly. No, I think it's the same thing that makes them dangerous is the same thing that makes them do it's uh you know characters haven't long done right you know that's obviously not my phrase but wait wait wait i say say that again characters have it long done i don't i've never heard that before. It's definitely not mine. I've heard it in the past and I like it.

It makes sense to me. Yeah, what does that mean to you? What you are is what you've been doing. Yeah, I get it. Character is long done, meaning your tale of your thoughts and behaviors are characters the culmination of that tale that history correct okay can change over time okay and the way you're raised or the way someone's treated you or whatever basically starts to formulate certain things and i think that the same thing that it gets them in the wrong way is the same

thing that we we do to get people in the right way it's it's daily living you know and in certain areas you know I've seen probably the most ugly the humans can possibly be and it and it disturbs me I don't like it but I have to do my job how would you characterize the most ugly? What does that mean to you? Just the atrocities that people will do to other people. I wouldn't want to get into details, but I've seen

the aftermath of, you know, our enemy and what they've done to just innocent bystanding people. You know, it had nothing to do with anything, but just because they waved at us or something else, it's pretty disturbing. And they don't care. Okay. They think they're doing the right thing i guess i don't know how do you work with those images that you've seen or the things that you've smelled or the things that you've heard like um when it's at that richness and palpable you know like how do you work with those images or experiences at the time i don't

i just i'm on mission i don't have my enemy i don't i don't hate any human on this planet there's no point it's like me drinking poison hoping you die doesn't make sense but you know afterwards all those things they kind of they slowly start coming out of the closet and haunting you a little bit. Certain things you've seen or have done, smelled. Humans burning is a distinct smell that you just cannot get out of your brain. When that does come up for you, how do you work with it in that in that moment well i used to it used to be unhealthy you know self-medication through alcohol and everything else and then i realized look now now i'm now i need to be a better you know person you know i'm a father i'm a son

i'm a husband you know so i have a responsibility and I started seeking help and I found much more productive ways to handle it. You know, in those moments, is it like, do you do something like not now? Or do you say hello and goodbye to those thoughts or smells or, you know, those sensations? Or do you have a relationship with them or with yourself during that time? Like there's not that many clever ways to deal with things that are difficult to deal with. Right. It's like, and I think I just named them. It's like, okay, well that was part of my life.

But my life right in this minute is I'm eating breakfast. So let me come back to right now. Or is it something else that you do? For me, I let them run the course. So it'd be like, uh, you got a steamroller coming and you don't want it to pass over. So you try to get in front of it and stop it. You're just not going to do it. So if, for instance, if I, if I said I, someone angered me, I'm angry. I can choose to lash out or I can just let that anger run its course, step aside, and I choose my actions after that. So I'm still in control of what happens to me when something, when something, you know, smell or sight or anything

else happens, it doesn't change the fact that I'm going through it and I'll probably always go through it. It's what I do when I'm going through it that, that I think is, is the most important thing. The amount, like when that comes from you, there's a, a deep amount of strength that you can hear in that. And when you said it, does it sound that way in your own head? Or like, it's really clear when you say it, like, I'm probably going to go through this for a long time. But what I do is I feel it, I let it run its course, and I maintain control of myself and my thoughts and actions. And so that sounds incredibly strong, but I'm just curious if it feels that way to you. A lot of times I feel like a duck.

If you've ever seen a duck swimming on water, it's smooth and it's gliding on this. But underneath the water, those legs are just a kicking. And it's just chaos under there. So that's how I feel a lot of times when something like this happens. On the exterior, I look and feel normal, but in my brain, it's just turning. So it's a hard battle to run with, but I'm getting better. And then, David, how often is that? Is that once a day, once an hour, once a week, once a month? Does it go in fits and spurts? And the reason I'm asking this question, because this is not a military special ops issue. that's been hard for them and they smell a perfume of that breakup that was awful, or they

ground an intersection when, you know, they heard the screeching tires and, you know, their, their car turned over, whatever, like this is for most of us. And you just obviously have been able to, um, sounds like, and feels like have a great perspective on it. So I'm asking like, how, like how frequently is it for you? And then brilliant the way that you've described the steamroller. I think that is brilliant. Now I'll give you another analogy, how I work with it in just a second. But how often is something like this part of your life? I think it varies. It's subjective to what I'm going through at the time. For instance, if I had to just give you an average, it would probably be maybe once a week or so.

But if I get close to February time period, in 2009, I lost four teammates within the course of a week. It was rough right during the moment and everything else. So there's a lot of images and a lot of things that happened. And it's something I can't openly talk about, not because of me, but because of the situation and the missions we were on. It's not something I can just talk to random people about. Yeah, for sure. And then I'm imagining that this was while you're at work. And I'll tell you, the reason I got introduced, not the reason, the first person that introduced me to mindfulness was a number of years ago. And I'm going to say what's up to you, Walt? Because I always appreciate him,

Walt Rutherford. And so he was a Vietnam vet and he described to me what it was like for him in the amphitheater war when he made a critical decision. And I'm not going to give away any details on this, but he made a critical decision where it impacted many and in bad ways, right. And his teammates. And so it's like, when he tells that story, I'm like, Holy shit. Like, geez, like, okay, how, how do you deal with it? And he said, like, at some point I just had to, I had to feel everything that I shoved away during those moments. And I had to experience all those feelings at a later time. Does that sound true to you? Is that sound like that's part of your formula as well? Yes.

What I did forever was just pack everything away. So what happened was, and a really good psychologist that I've been talking to, she explained it like this. I had no emotion at all and that's my symptoms for PTSD is I show nothing I don't have fear, I don't have anything else no happiness, no sad, just nothing so what her job

was to bring out an emotion and if you let one in you have to let the rest in and that was scary to me really because i didn't want all that extreme sadness but after a while when i had extreme happy not too long after that the pendulum swang the other way and i had extreme sadness but i just let it happen the case yeah okay yeah you know and the worst is that you curl up in a ball and you don't know how to think or feel, but then that goes away. You know, it's like. It gets better. I have a deep respect for that work, obviously. And so, okay, so let's go into your craft here just a little bit.

What are the more difficult parts of being a sniper while on tour? What are the hard parts of that? The difficult portions of this is, especially in my job, you have to dictate different weapon systems or equipment to fit the mission. And any sniper would tell you that you're a master of that weapon. You know everything about it. We use a term called DOPE, and that's what we use to engage targets or different scenarios during different things.

And I could dive into that forever, but DOPE is data of previous engagements. So everything you've done in the past during training or in combat, you log down and all that data gets translated to your next shot, if that makes any sense it does yeah okay and is that is that data um wind conditions height distance you know um what the rifle or or a weapon can do is that what what dope is or that is that the data yes it is so everything plays a role in in that so we have internal ballistics external external ballistics and terminal ballistics internal is what's happening from when the firing pin hits the

primer to when it exits the barrel the pressure is involved the heat of the metal the heat of the round the heat of the powder all that play a role in your accuracy once it leaves the gun that's called external ballistics and from there you have humidity you have temperature you have elevation you you have the coriolis effect you have spin drift you have all these factors um that that play a role in your bullet the wind is one of the bigger ones and then once it hits the target you know it it does something to that target now if it's too far it does less damage up close it does a lot of damage but you have over penetration so knowing what that bullet's going to do at any given moment is a true you know mastery of that of that, whatever weapon you're picking up.

How long did it take you? Well, it's not a fair question. How long have you studied particular weapons? How much are you invested in a suite of weapons? It's one of my passions. The one I use currently, I've probably used that one for about four years. And I know everything about that gun. What's it going to do at this temperature, distance, whatever.

But in the past, I can't use a bolt action for every mission. So I used a semi-automatic sniper system, which I don't like. It's a particular weapon I did not like, but I had to get to know that weapon. What's the distance that you start to lose meaningful accuracy? There's a whole bunch of things at play on that one. In.308, there's a transonic period. During that transonic period, your bullet does some funny things and there are programs out there uh litz uh helps uh with this it's a it's a guy that studies ballistics

through that transonic period and it's not perfect but he's got a really close estimate on what that thing's going to do. So 308 is probably transonic around, depends on the velocity and length of the barrel, but it's 800 to 1,100 meters is probably when it ends. And where is that relative to a mile? So you get your 1,600 meters, which 308 is very capable of hitting a human-sized target up to a mile. Okay. Transonic means just before the speed of sound? So the speed of sound is obviously a constant.

But your bullet is slowing down. And when the bullet's slowing down, the back end of the bullet touches that transonic, that sonic barrier. So it starts to send it off and do a little bit of a wobble. But from the back of the bullet to the front of the bullet, it's called transonic. And once it passes by the tip, that means it's going to be constant after that. That's actually, I don't know if you followed the Red Bull Stratos program when Felix Baumgartner jumped from near 130,000 feet from space.

Oh, yes. Yeah, for sure. That was one of the projects that I worked on. And his body was in, like it passed through the sound barrier. So his body was transonic. And so his legs and arms were at one speed and his head and torso were at a different speed, no different than the bullet you just described. And some of the brightest minds in aerospace weren't quite sure what was

going to happen. Was he going to rip apart? What was going to happen at that point? And obviously it worked out well for him. That type of math and science is why I love doing this. It's such an, it's such an art that you can never really fully master it. In my opinion. Finding master is brought to you by cozy earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And

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and a hair serum. With Calderdera lab it's not about adding more it's about choosing better and when your day demands clarity and energy and presence the way you prepare for it matters if you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it i'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash finding mastery and use the code finding mastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash finding mastery. Okay. So how do you get better? What do you do to get better? And then I want to follow that along with what are the mental skills that you need to be great? And then how do you train those? So how do you organize your life to get better? And that might seem like a rudimentary question, but if you pull back the curtain and say, this is how I organize my day to train, I'd love to hear that. Well, I think the best advice that I could give anyone is don't give yourself a glass ceiling. And what I mean by that is if I move away from sniping here, you know, years ago, people thought it was impossible to backflip on a motorcycle.

And once someone did it, now they're doing it with monster trucks. What they thought was impossible is now possible. With a lot of these things, once you give yourself a glass barrier or a barrier to begin with that you don't and be curious about it and explore what your goals are. And hitting a 40-inch by 19-inch target in a mile is, man, it's really rewarding when you hear that gong hit. Okay, I love the glass ceiling analogy. And what do you do? Like, what are your statements that you make to yourself about your potential? And that could be either, it could be goals or it could be like statements about your capacity or your capabilities.

What are ones that work for you to keep, um, keep that glass ceiling way further than you think it should be, I guess. I think I just, I'm never satisfied. That's part of my perfectionist and a little bit of obsessive compulsive. I'm never good enough in my own mind. So I can always make a further shot. I can always tighten up my group. I can always find a better way to load the bullet. Why did that shot miss?

It'll bug me forever until I figure it out. There's about three shots in my life that I cannot figure out and I always go back to them, no matter how long ago it happened. That OCD perfectionistic never satisfied will get you good, maybe even great, maybe even world-class. And I just know this, like there's a cost to that. And so I'm not trying to put any judgment or critique on it because I've seen this frame over and over again with best tip of the arrow performers.

What is the cost for you of that perfection, never satisfied quest? Well, it's at the cost of your brain and your body. I'm pretty, you know, I'd say injured or broke down because of how far and hard I've pushed myself. And there's got to be a grace that I give myself. And it's not because, A, you didn't pass this or you didn't do what you could have. There's a better way to do it. There's a more productive way to do it.

But I just head down, go in. And it eventually pays its toll on both the mind and the body yeah and that's the adrenal burnout piece that you're talking about as well yes and you know people that are intense in gaming or at intense in just about anything they do they we can find the same burnout that adrenal fatigue profile that you experienced coming back from war, they experience coming back from just playing games or living too intensely. So that's like, it's not specific to one particular way of living. It's that way that we interface with the things that we do in life. And do you have like a way that you counterbalance that and then we talked about breathing

that down regulation piece is there anything else that you do to help i don't know find a little bit um i i'm pausing because i don't want to put a judgment on it but a healthier way and i'm pausing with that word because that might not be part of what you are looking for. You might be still in that frame of like, no, I want performance, best in class, whatever, whatever, because of all the reasons that are important to me. And I also hear that at the side of you, which is like, you know, there's a cost to it. And I burnt myself out a bit in some ways. It's still a challenge for me. And,

uh, I've got a, I got an idea of what it looks like to give myself grace on certain things. But to me, if I give myself grace, if I, if I don't do another workout, if I sit on the couch, that just gives myself an inch and I'll take a mile because every,

every day is painful for me. Oh my God. You just dropped something heavy in the middle of my laugh. Hold on. I was laughing because that's what makes you probably great. Like an inch to a mile. Like if it's, that's the perfectionist as well as the addict, right? Where it's like, why would I stop at one piece of pizza? I could eat 12 12 because it tastes good, right? Or I'm going to sit on the couch for 10 minutes. I might sit here for 10 hours. Yeah.

So, okay. But then you said something really painful during that, which is how painful your life is. Oh, yeah. Working out for me is very painful. Oh, you weren't saying emotionally painful. Oh, you didn't, you weren't saying emotionally painful. You were saying like your body, um, like lactic acid, brandy, kinase,

like a acidic system from hard working out. Is that, is that what you're saying? Yep. Four surgeries later. And you know, from working out, uh,

it's been a combination of many different things, but yeah, working out has caused at least one of my surgeries, yes. All right, let's go. I still don't know how you get better. Do you wake up and study? Do you wake up and do breathing work? Do you wake up and do imagery? Do you wake up and hit the gym? Do you read? Do you just start cleaning your guns? How do you get better? So for me, my brain doesn't stop, so I use it productively. For me to go to sleep, I actually drum up of a target idea and run through everything that I need to do, you know, ballistically to hit that target. And that'll actually make me go to sleep.

That sounds kind of funny but uh from the moment i wake up to the moment i actually exhaust myself fall asleep i'm thinking about things and i like to i like to put that into you know shooting because it's just it's it's for me i feel it's a little bit more healthy and i study a lot i read this i read that there's a i bit more healthy. And I study a lot. I read this. I read that. I can learn from anyone on how to shoot, even someone that may not have a lot of skills. But something about what they're doing is right, and I take from that. So anything and everything. I'm pretty fluid with the way I do things.

Traditionalist snipers would roll over in the grave right now if they heard me say that. I like to adapt with what I have. That makes me, I guess it keeps me on the edge. It me right right where i i want to be okay so what are the mental skills that are meaningful and valuable to you well one one huge one is patience being able to know when the right time to hurry up or slow down and take your time is key. A lot of younger guys, they just kind of head down and bully the way into a shot and they'll

miss. Or they just don't set up their position very well. So they're unstable during the entire lane. So patience and maturity is, is, is, is key. And then what are the, like, is it, is, does patience come from living in the present moment more often, not judging, not critiquing, just accepting now and waiting for the right moment to pull the trigger or not? Like, is that, is that what, is that how you get to patients? I think the experience, uh, once, once you realized or have been through certain things

and realize that didn't work, uh, that's, you start to learn that, that, you know, that's not a good way to approach things so yeah living in the the present is i think really really important learn from the past live in the present plan for the future whenever your brain's in one of the other two ways you're distracted and you're not effective okay um introception or introception the the, the ability to, you know, have a deep perception of what's going on inside your body, you know, feelings, hunger, hunger, thirst, you know, like all of that type of stuff, tiredness, fatigue, all the sensory stuff that happens inside.

I imagine you have to be highly skilled at being a sensitive instrument to what's happening inside you. Is that fair? Or is that an assumption that I just made that's not even close to being right? You would think that knowing everything about what's going on inside makes you way more effective. And I would agree. Most of us and our personalities and the way we are in our job, we tend to ignore everything

going on, pain or discomfort or hunger, and we just ignore it all. And sometimes that works, sometimes it's really a detriment. How long do you lay still under whatever you're doing to be able to wait for your target when you're in war? What is the duration?

Is it short time? Is it long time? Is it days? Is it hours? What is that like? Well, disclaimer, I haven't done a whole lot of the traditional, the sexy TV, crawl in inch by inch, stalking in all the sniper movies i it's very few

and far between more of what i do is more of a target rich environment um being able to build or build a position range and engage targets rapidly that's that's 90 of what I've done. However, on the side of this, I have spent days laying in snow waiting for a particular group to cross this path. And I actually thought I was going to die. I was so cold. I had to take out the round every couple hours to make sure it wasn't frozen in the chamber so there's there's moments where patience is really really important because those those those afghans they know everything about their environment so it's really really hard to hide from them so are you a target oh yeah absolutely and what what is the weapon of choice against the sniper?

You know, they don't want to face us directly. In the beginning of the war, there was a lot of believers. They would face you directly. They don't care if they got killed. They just wanted to take one of you with them. And then it turned, a lot of those guys didn't make it. And then it turns to greed. They don't want to die for that.

They're just making a buck. And then now you're getting, you still have those guys, but you're getting foreign fighters coming in, and they do believe. So you get a mix now. So you get a very diverse group of enemy combatants. And skill training, too, because some of the foreign fighters have a, have a lot of training, so it's pretty good chess match sometimes. Okay. And then what, what can you give as a insight or a pearl of wisdom to people that need to

develop patience to be great? Like, how do you, how could you help other folks that don't have that discipline that you have to get better at it? How would I train it? How would I get better? Yeah. That's a tough one, right? You know, instant gratification. We all, we all want to go on a diet and lose 10 pounds right now. But it's, and I think it's a long process to learn how to get yourself that patience. You know, one thing that I like to do, and it's not a popular thing, a lot of people don't like to do this, it's the long lost art of doing nothing. Go sit somewhere with no electronic devices, nothing do and just stare just and i would bet you within five minutes you see something that's pretty cool you know in my neighborhood there's deer

walking around and if i just sit there for a bit a deer will walk within i don't know 20 yards of me and not even know i'm there. And I just sit there and observe. That in many ways is like the art of living meditation or mindfulness, right? Is without judgment, just observe. And you don't have to close your eyes. You can keep your eyes open and observe as well, which is, that's rad. Yeah, I love how you said that. Okay, how do you get in your own way?

Like, like there's a lot of things that you got going on. Like, how do you get in your way? As in, can you explain a little bit? This is where this thought comes from is that those that are highly skilled, highly dedicated, highly ambitious are searching deeply and organizing their life to get better in whatever area of interest interests them the most. It seems great. And, but there's ways that we trip ourselves up and it's, for example, like, um, laziness or self-doubt or, um, you know, being too defensive or whatever. I could go on and on and on. How do you get in your own way for the mission that you've set out in your life?

I'd live in the policy of, just like what I've said earlier, learn from your past, live in the present and plan for the future. And I think it's an important task to be able to set goals for yourself and those change they change all the time but being able to set goals and achieve them you know incrementally is a good way to to get where you where you're going but you know everyone goes head down you know climb this hill you know every once in a while, stop, turn around and look where you've been. And sometimes that's a good gut check. You didn't get as far as you thought or wow, look at what I've done. And it's an important thing to do. Stop, turn around, take a moment and, you knowvaluate reassess is there a phrase or a word that guides your life and this is like i'm asking about a philosophy is there a phrase or word or

a principle that guides your life well i'm a christian um i i believe in god and I'm proud of that fact. I'm definitely not a Bible thumper by any means, but my goal. There's the shepherd sheep and the wolf. Sometimes I have to be the wolf. Sometimes I'm the shepherd. But I have to stay in those roles for me to feel like I'm achieving my goals in life. And when you say goals, is it deeper? Is that your purpose to be a wolf or a shepherd? It's an inborn behavior. I knew since I was very young, listening to my father's stories about being a Charlie Ranger in Vietnam on what I was going to do. I had a full ride to Columbia University and it turned it down. I knew what I was going to do. I had a full ride to Columbia University and it turned it down.

I knew what I was going to be in my life. And when you, when you say I knew what I was going to be, how do you describe that? I knew I was going to be a soldier. I didn't understand what all that meant, but you know, and I wanted to be a ranger. That was like my bottom line. That was, I wanted to be just like my father. And I couldn't understand or explain this deep driver gut feeling that was so important to me. But, you know, it, I just made it happen. You are, it sounds like you're fully aligned with your purpose. Yeah. I, I feel, I feel like I've, I feel satisfied with what I've done and where I'm going in life.

And then how do you, as a Christian, like, how do you wrestle or work with that nexus between killing and saving or helping others? How do you work with that for yourself? And believe me, there is no judgment or critique loaded. I'm fascinated by that nexus, that crisis for some people and for others not? For me, I take on Alvin York's purpose. I take lives to save lives. And as I was stating earlier, I don't hate a single human in this world. And by me not putting an emotion to it, what I believe that I'm doing,

especially some of the people that I've hunted down. They're horrible, horrible people, raping, killing, you know, just at will in this one village. And he was my target, you know, and we get in there, my team, and we take him down. And you should just see the change in the village. You know, they felt confident. They had this, the tyr they they felt confident they had this the tyrannical fear that they had was was gone it was lifted because this guy and his his crew was gone they were they were dead and i wasn't happy that i killed this this human but to see

that i stopped him from doing this in the future, that gives me a great feeling that I've done something that helped. Okay, super clear. Okay, how about this, David? Pressure comes from? Myself. Me not satisfied with where I am. The crossroad in my life was? This one's deep.

So I would say it was around 2010 when I got to the bottom and I actually considered, you know, ending my life. And then that was kind of a, a portion that I said, Nope, this is, this is, uh, this has got to change. How'd you get through it? Uh, safety nets, you know, in, in the bottom of those moments, I, I looked down and I said, yeah, this is, I'm going to have second and third order effects here. People that look up to me, like my son. In my opinion, I was cursing him and damning him to do the same thing because of how much he looks up to me. And that is probably the most selfish piece of this whole thing. But, you know, I used to view suicide and all that the same as most people,

where it's a coward's way out and all this stuff. But then I started to realize that there's way more to this than people realize. Which is what? Every brain is different, and we can't judge it. We just got to help, you know, help people feel like they're still a part of something. I actually, I actually run a peer support group for my unit. Uh, it's all voluntary, but someone's got to do it. And someone's got to help these guys that are true warriors, never cowards. These guys are not cowards at all, but they've, they've gone to the bottom of the pits and they've seen, they've seen some horrible things or done some horrible things and they need,

they need solace. They need, they need, you know, to feel like they, you know, they still belong. They're still valid in this life. On the flip side of that, like, how do you organize your thoughts around what success is? As a man, as a woman, as a human, what is success? A lot of guys, especially younger, how many people have I killed? I find the most gratifying effect is how many people I've saved. How many lives have I changed? That's way more important to me.

Okay. When I say the word relationships, what happens? Very, very important. When you try to do things on your own, you usually fail. How about this? My vision is That's such a broad spectrum. My vision right now is to teach, to

create where a lot of my life was destroyed. Wow. I mean, I don't know how to do honor to like the depth of what you're talking about, but maybe just saying that is my best attempt at it. But, you know, I'm on the other side of this conversation. Really, truly a loss for words. to go to the darkest places of the human experience and share those insights and different ways of thinking in this conversation. So, you know, I don't know what to say after that, but I'm just, that's my experience right now. And then in that not so clean, you know, transition to the next thought is like, what would you hope

that I could get right from this conversation? What would you hope for me or that you'd say, Mike, if you really understood this, you would know this or you would do differently? Like what, what would you want me to really understand from your path? I would say that, I mean, it's, it would be something you would already know, but that what you're doing with the performance psychology,

the, the, the performance aspect of the brain, the mental agility, the mindfulness is absolutely effective. And when you believe in something and you actually practice it, it works. And it's worked for me and it's worked for everyone that I've introduced to this. So I would have to say, you know, Mike, what you're doing is right and you're helping people. Well, that's a surprise. That is awesome.

It sounds like you've had great experience there, you know, working with performance psych folks that have helped you understand more, articulate better, feel more, and have better command. So I love that. And so one for the industry and one for the folks that you've worked with is really cool there. Okay, so how about this? How do you think about or characterize the concept of mastery? I think the concept of mastery is a goal and it's a it's it's a sexy goal it's something that

everyone wants but I think it's a it's a false front in my opinion there's we we get to a certain point a world record is broken a, a particular thing is achieved. Just wait. Some other awesome human is going to beat that. And then some other awesome human is going to beat that. We just continue to stand on the shoulders of success and, hey, this person did it. I can do it too. I can do it better.

I think that's where mastery comes from and it's, it's, it's a wall that keeps moving, I guess. Awesome. So thank you. You know, like, uh, from the bottoms of my, um, the deepest parts of gratitude for me. Thank you. And where can people, um, it's an odd thing, but like, where do you want to send people to get better? Because most of the times I ask people at the end, where can we learn more about you, but we're keeping this, some anonymity around this conversation. So where would you want to drive people to? Maybe as it may be a cause that they could donate to, maybe it's a learning environment that they could be part of.

Maybe one of those, we just kind of keep it with one of those two. Like where would you want to drive people that have been touched or inspired by you in this conversation? I would say that there's, there's groups out there that, uh, they, they really do awesome things and work, you know, like on combat, on killing, those are great ways to start to learn how to understand your body. But I think the best way to do is actually to be around humans that care and want to help others. One particular group, I don't mean to name drop or sponsor anything, but they're not for profit, so it's okay. It's Team Red, White, and Blue. Oh, yeah, we've had him on.

Mike Irwin. Blaine Smith, he was my former team leader. And what a great man. And he started a program, and it was spurred from probably our events in 2009. And, you know, I donate to them whenever I can, and I try to help out. And I think what they're doing is amazing. Awesome. Yeah, so that feels like a two-degree separation there.

So let's just kind of wrap it with that, which is anyone that's been inspired by this conversation and wants to support military people either coming back or just the ecosystem of returning from combat, red, white, and blue. And there'll be more information on our website. You can also go to the podcast where Mike Irwin, who's the, one of the, the founder of red, white, and blue is on as well. So again, thank you, thank you, thank you for this conversation. And for those that enjoyed this conversation, there's lots more of these on the Finding Mastery podcast. And if you do like this stuff, write a review.

It helps us. It helps build our community and ecosystem so we can keep this rolling. And then we've also got a tribe that we built. It's called findingmastery.net forward slash tribe. And inside of that ecosystem, there's thousands of people that are supporting and challenging each other on their path of mastery. So that's all part of it. And then last but not least is you hit me up on social media at Michael Gervais is Twitter. And then on Instagram is at Finding Mastery. And again, I just want to thank you for your time and honored to be part of this conversation

with you. Well, thank you. I definitely appreciate what you're also doing to help people like me. Okay, great. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show,

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at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening.

Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.