Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Day 2 - The Approval Game: Flipping the Script on Judgement| The Game Inside the Games
Episode Date: July 27, 2024Imagine if every email you sent – every phone call you took – was scrutinized, critiqued, and scored by the person who writes your paycheck.In day 2 of The Game Inside The Games, Nastia L...iukin and Dr. Michael Gervais explore the unique psychological challenges athletes face in judged sports like gymnastics. They discuss how the constant evaluation by judges – even during pre-competition training sessions – impacts athletes’ performances, mental states, and ultimately their ability to podium. Nastia shares compelling stories from her own journey, revealing how her father’s coaching philosophy helped her navigate the subjective nature of judging. This episode offers a rare behind-the-scenes look at the psychological strategies that can make or break an Olympic dream – and the human behind it – when your every move is being watched.This episode is brought to you by Accenture, Avanade, and Microsoft. Accenture and Avanade are reimagining the workplace with Copilot for Microsoft 365._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
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Day two from Paris. Today we're exploring a game inside the games many may not be aware of,
winning over the approval of judges. Welcome back to Paris for the game inside the games,
brought to you by Microsoft Co-Pilot. I'm Olympic gold medalist Nastia Lukin.
And I am Dr. Michael Gervais, sport and performance psychologist,
fortunate to work my fourth Olympic Games. And as you know, there is truly nothing like
an Olympic Games. And to be able to have the world's best athletes come together
every four years is absolutely incredible.
But also behind every sports performance, there is often unseen challenges,
which we will get into whether you're having your best or worst performance.
Also, the mental game of winning over the judges.
This is something that's really
unique to your sport. There are plenty of sports that have judges, but your sport is really unique
that at some level you could have a beautiful performance and the outcome lies in the hands
of the judges. And not just sometimes, but every single time you could go out there and have
the best routine of your entire life
and think that that deserved the best score you've ever gotten.
And it doesn't.
And that could be literally down to the point of
a judge liked somebody else more than you.
Imagine that.
You've worked your entire life and it comes down to favorability.
It comes down to relationship.
Absolutely.
What happens in practice for you?
So the most interesting thing is that the judging actually starts before the competition.
So these judges that are on the Olympic floor are also showing up to your training.
And for me, I remember talking about this and someone said, but that's not fair.
How are they getting to judge you before the competition? So they sit there and they memorize
your routines. They actually put them down on paper, pen to paper, like they do at a competition.
So they know if you make a mistake in the training consistently without even question,
they already almost see it, see that same mistake in the
competition, even if you didn't do it.
So they're looking for all these mistakes that in training, it's, it's the most
important part is to always train as if you're competing and compete as if you're
training.
So you can't just go out there and training and say, oh, it's just a warmup
because the judges are judging you.
It is aspirationally what we want athletes to do, which is to train as if you're competing.
However, in training, it's also the place to fall apart, to try something, to push an
edge, to, you know, to explore a little bit.
Sometimes training is ugly and what you're saying, and that's normal.
Absolutely.
But at the Olympic games, so training at home with no cameras, no judges, that can be where
you fall apart.
But when you show up to the Olympics, when you step foot into the competition, the village,
the arena, the training hall, it's game on.
So it's not really training for you.
No, it's not.
It's a competition every time that you step onto the floor.
And so, and I just want to reiterate one more time.
You're not then training while you're here because you're actually being judged, criticized,
critiqued during training.
Every single time that you step onto the beam.
And I think that's what's, it's so mind boggling to even think about because like you said, as an athlete, that's where you mess up. That's where you learn.
That's where you get stronger. That's where you, you know, the endurance, if you're not quite
feeling great, that's where you can quote unquote mess up. But in gymnastics, the judge has it all
written down. I remember my dad specifically telling me as we stepped onto the floor in
podium training, right? This is even taking it a step beyond the qualifying round. And your dad
was your coach. My dad was my coach. He was also an Olympic gold medalist himself in gymnastics.
So he'd been there, done that. He knows exactly what the judges are looking for. If you have a
mistake that, for instance, we're getting a little technical here but say there's a skill it is valued at a certain level and if you don't hit a hundred and eighty
degrees like a split it's devalued so if you do that one time and that's the one
that judges sees they write it down so they take note what mistakes to look for
in the competition now even if you're on the border
because again it's subjective one judge could see that skill and think it was 180 degrees
because nothing pauses they can't just pause you on the middle of the air and judge like see if
it's 180 while another judge might have seen it as 180. Now there's a split opinion
and now it gets really subjective.
What country is the judge from?
Is there bias?
You'd like to think there's not.
I think, how can there not be a little bit?
Because it's subjective.
So, of course, the judge from your country
hopefully likes you, right? Maybe they're not helping you, because it's subjective. So of course the judge from your country,
hopefully likes you, right?
Maybe they're not helping you,
but they're certainly not going to hurt you.
They're not going to, you know,
if it was on the cusp,
they're not going to give you degrade,
like they're not going to devalue that skill if it's on the cusp.
They're going to play fair.
So it's, again, it's that subjective.
It's tough to even explain when you're actually looking at it pen to paper,
but that's what it comes down to.
A gold medal could be based on a judge's opinion.
I mean, it's unreal.
Like in training for most athletes, even at the games, for most athletes,
they don't have this unique experience that you're describing.
And training is a way where people show up and it's a bit of a high ground. It's a way to just kind of be with coaches to be, you know, with your small little team, laugh, giggle, kind of be part
of it, work some kinks out. And then there's a debrief afterwards and we call it a hot wash.
So there's a 10 to 15 minute
hot wash where you're just going through like what went well, what do you want to work on?
And it sounds like you don't get that luxury of high ground where you can dry off and kind of
just be with your team. It's, it's on and on and on and on. Yeah. I would say not on the
competition floor. You know, it is the second you walk into that arena,
podium training, qualifying, whatever it is,
it's you march into the arena, right?
So you are not just walking in with like your backpack on your one shoulder.
You are judged upon the way you present to the judges.
You line up before the judges and you, it is, you look at them in the eye.
And in that
how, that's how it's been from, I can't even tell you how many years.
And so if you don't look at them in the eye and if you don't stand straight and tall,
that's disrespect that you are being judged.
Wow.
I mean, what, what is that like?
What is the psychology of that level of readiness even before you, you're, you're about to go out and do your thing?
Well, you know, I think the first time that we had the conversation when I was on Finding Mastery,
that's what I found so interesting because I knew that I was doing that and I knew how important it was,
but I didn't really understand how I was able to do it. And I think visualizing for me was key to the physical,
you know, performance aspect, right? To visualize that routine, yes, it's mental training,
but to visualize my routine in the best way possible to have the best performance. If you
start thinking negatively, I don't want to mess up on the skill. I don't want to fall off the beam.
Whatever it is you don't want to do, all your mind. And from my experience, it picks up on fall,
mess up, mess up, fall. It doesn't hear. I don't want to. So then how do you take that out?
Outside of the visualizing, what is it that like, how are you able to just stay positive? Right.
It's that main question of, OK, stay positive, but how do I do that?
Well, there's a unique trick here.
So yes, putting yourself in a productive, positive mind is always part of, you know,
the internal game.
What I hear you talking about, though, is that there is, whether the judge likes me,
whether our personality, whether I show up in a way,
it's a breeding ground for an internalization of needing and feeling that you have to be a certain
way only to be liked by another. That to me feels like a complete recipe for whether it's post games or during the games, a bit of a disaster when it comes to mental health.
Constantly, consistently looking outside of yourself to see if you're okay
is a disaster recipe.
Validation.
Well, so you're looking for validation as opposed to,
no, I am going to be grounded and clear,
and I'm going to orientate myself to be me,
and whatever happens outside of me is not my business. That would be the healthiest way to go through. Absolutely. And so when you are competing, no, let's take you out of it. For
most athletes that are competing in gymnastics, which one is it? Is it more like, I hope they like me or I'm here to be
me? I think that is the difference. There's two types of athletes, right? And I think that's the
difference from the good and the great. If you're able to kind of not care what the judges think,
because you know, it's out of your control. You care. You're respectful. You still do the quote unquote right thing, but you don't really care what the outcome is because
it's out of your control. That to me is what great is when you care too much. And when you
are so worried about what your score is going to be in a subjective sport, when you can't control
that, that can only set you up for even more mental challenges because you're so wrapped up
in what something's going to happen. That's not in your control that you're not even able to think
positively or visualize about anything else in the moment. And so that's when you mess up on
other things. I think this is one of the first
principles in not only competition, but in life in general, is to fundamentally know how to be
yourself in any environment, to be your very best to be. People use the word authentic. There's lots
of words that get thrown around, but it takes such discipline to not get swept into especially especially in your sport when those people how
many judges gosh i mean six around six plus or minus four floor there's each event sorry has
like different judges so maybe maybe eight judges per event four on the difficulty side four on the
execution side so then you have you know four events. So yeah, it's a lot.
And not to be swept into like, I need them to like me. I want them to think favorably because,
you know, biases are part of the human experience. And in some cases it serves well,
in other cases, it's really quite disastrous. And so we are designed, our brain is designed
to scan the world and see if we are being rejected,
to see if we are being accepted.
Because if we're accepted, we're safer.
Belonging is safety.
And your sport is about people judging you that you're not good enough or that you didn't
do well enough.
It touches a primal, ancient part of all of our brains that is really difficult to work with.
And so I have great regard and respect.
I mean, you won a gold medal.
You won multiple medals, meaning that you were able to deal with that noise,
which is something that is quite remarkable.
How can you help the viewer understand how you did that?
So to put it in perspective, we're,
we're always told, or we tell each other, you know,
don't read the Instagram comments. Don't read the DMS.
Don't read the things that are negative that affect you.
But that's exactly what we are doing when we finish a routine and we immediately
look at the scoreboard. What score did the judges give me?
That's exactly what it is.
We're searching for a negative comment or a positive comment for validation.
As opposed to, I know what I just did.
I know that I pushed the limit.
I know that I was completely poised.
I know what it felt like to be fully free
and grounded in the same way,
which sounds really confusing, but is that grounded freedom that takes place, the letting go.
So I would imagine, did you ever have an experience where at the end of your routine,
that you would take a moment to gather yourself, to give yourself an honest reflection? Like,
you know, you know, that, you know, the skills that are really challenging for you.
Like, did you really commit to it?
Did you hold your line?
Whatever it might be, as opposed to looking up to the board.
Absolutely.
You know, I think I go back to the Olympics.
And for instance, at the beginning vault, I stuck my vault landing and it was the best
vault I had ever done in my entire life.
Now at the Olympics and the all-around finals.
That's a whole different conversation of how I was able to do that in that moment.
But I remember not even wanting or having the desire to look at the score.
When you landed and you stuck it, you did...
I don't remember looking at it.
I knew it was the best I could do.
I couldn't have done any better.
And so that wasn't, it wasn't best I could do. I couldn't have done any better. And so that wasn't,
it wasn't up to me anymore. I did the absolute best I could do. And it was like,
okay, turn the page. Now put your grips on. You're going to bars. And this event coming up
is going to be the most crucial event out of all of the four. You need to focus on that.
You know what I love about that is it's so clear when you say it, it's like a lightning bolt moment for me, which is when I am unsettled and I don't feel like I'm grounded and I don't feel like I can just be myself.
I know that I'll look over to another person to Did they catch it? Did they see the
mistake? Can they notice whatever that that strength, even if it wasn't the most beautiful
vault that you've ever done, but that strength and commitment to say, I just did my very best.
I hope they liked it, but that's not up to me. It's, it's the uncertainty of when you're not
sure if you could have done better, or you are sure you could have done a little bit better.
And so that's when you look.
What are you looking for?
Well, comparing it to what you're saying, right?
If you're looking for somebody for validation or you're like not so, if you're not as confident in yourself in that moment, in that decision, in that line, in that whatever, you kind of look for somebody else to be like, no, no, it's okay.
Good job.
It'll be better something. But when you are so confident in yourself, you don't feel the need
to get validated by anybody else. Then you're like yourself, you're validating your own
performance. Was this trained as a psychological skill across your team? And before you answer it,
I want to give you, um, tell a story. This is an Olympian that was recognized as being
one of the best in the world. However, when it came to the games, he had won multiple world
championships, but when it came to the games, he hadn't meddled yet. And this was over about a 20
year career. And so this was going to be his last Olympic games. And he made a fundamental commitment
that he was going to push it, that he was absolutely going to do it his way. He wasn't going to play it safe. And that's why
in the previous three or four Olympic games, he had crashed out. He had not been able to finish
the race. So on this one, he got to the end and he gathered himself before he looked to the board and you could see him working through.
Did I?
Yep, I did it.
I gave an honest performance.
And then he looks up to the board and it's the number one time, gold medal.
The story is amazing.
And so I wonder if in your sport, they help train or condition or build this psychological
capability to gate out the noise and get to the signal.
So I had this moment that became very pivotal in my career with that.
I remember the year before the Olympics, maybe two years before, my dad, who was my coach, he taught him and my mom.
They both taught me everything I knew, you know,
in the mental game, also the physically and gymnastics, obviously. But I remember he looked
at me and he said, stop trying to beat everybody else. Just be the best you that you can be.
If you can be that best version of yourself, there's no way that anybody else could beat you.
And whether or not, you know,
the results, whether or not that's true or not for anybody, why are you trying to be better than
somebody else? Because our, each one of our best is, is different. Your fastest time is,
guarantee you is much faster than mine. So why am I trying to beat you? Because it's not about that.
It's trying to be the best you that you can be.
And I think when when he told me that, I remember specifically thinking,
wow, why am I like I less care about the judges scores
and I more cared about trying to beat somebody else.
Both of those things are out of my control.
Both of those are noise.
100% noise.
That gets in the way
of the signal and then i was not doing as well because of the noise so not only was i not in
control of that now i wasn't even in control of my own mental and physical like my gymnastics
because i was so worried about the other things so when i heard him say that i remember thinking oh
why am i why am i why am i, why am I, why am I watching? Why am I worried about somebody
else's score? The score is already not in my control. And then it's somebody else's score.
So worry about yourself. And I think that was really groundbreaking for me.
One of the things we talk about in Olympic swimming or swimming in general, and for the
viewer in the United States for gymnastics and for swimming the trials are
oftentimes considered a harder a more intense competition in the actual olympic games because
somebody who took fifth in trials could have probably meddled in the olympic like and and
but they're staying at home they don't get to go because they, in swimming, they only take the top two per event.
But it comes down to a millisecond.
Milliseconds.
And that is why that the, the, the main coaching point is swim your lane and see if you can
find what's called easy speed.
So easy speed is this incredible intensity, but there's a letting go. If you swim too hard, if you're gripping too hard, if you will, to effort or technique,
you end up going a little bit slower.
So it's getting to that edge and really trusting and letting go, which is what's called easy
speed.
And it sounds like what your father did, your coach did, is he said, look, the work is to
get to the signal.
In swimming, it's to get to the signal in swimming.
It's to get to easy speed for you.
It's to feel your body in space.
And it was so technical.
So on that vault and the Olympics and the all around final, it wasn't
about trying to stick that landing.
It was about doing a, B, C, D E F, F, G, all the way, run the same,
like the round off, the back handspring,
the block, all the little things
to set yourself up for the stick.
So you're not necessarily thinking about,
let me go stick this vault landing.
You're kind of thinking,
let me go through the process
of then just letting it happen.
Because if you do all of that leading
up to it, there's no way it wouldn't happen. As we know, if you're a thinking athlete,
you're probably not at your very best. There's all of the training goes into,
so you can just really let go. I am so impressed. It's too small of a word for what it takes to be
a world-class athlete when the intensity is
so high and your job is to let go and trust that is the game inside the games. It absolutely is.
And only a few can really, can really master that and not just maybe do it once by chance,
right? A coach helps you be at the best of your absolute best, but then it's all up to you.
They're not on the beam with you.
You're the only one on that four inch wide balance beam.
They can train you hours, years, months, whatever,
but you have to trust that process, that training.
And like you just said, to stay in your lane,
my parents also told me to pretend you're a horse
at a horse race with your blinders on.
Same idea.
And it's the exact same idea.
It's really about trying to be the best version of yourself.
And that's what I tell the girls now.
I say, be the best version of yourself.
Nothing worse, nothing better.
And that's applicable to every viewer.
And the way to operationalize that is,
you know the choices that serve you best.
And it comes down to these micro choices, hundreds, thousands a day of just making the
best informed choice you can.
You know, what are the words I'm going to speak?
How am I going to hold my posture?
What type of breathing?
Am I going to eat apples or apple pies?
Apple pies are fine, but not all the time.
It's just these small little micro
choices that that is really what you're pointing to. And when you know yourself and you can be
true to what works best for you and you're in service of other people, it tends to work out
pretty well. All right, now it's time for our AI insights brought to you by Accenture and Avanade.
Accenture and Avanade are reimagining the workplace and they're doing it with Copilot
for Microsoft 365.
I love this segment.
Okay, let's give it a go.
Hey, Copilot,
what guests should we have
on tomorrow's episode
of Game Inside the Games?
Preferably a woman
who's won three world titles
and is considered
the greatest female skier
in the last 20 years.
Hi, Mike.
I recommend inviting Lindsay Vaughn. She is considered one of the greatest female skiers in the last 20 years. Hi, Mike. I recommend inviting Lindsey Vonn.
She is considered one of the greatest female skiers
of the last 20 years
with four World Cup overall championships
and numerous other titles.
She would bring incredible insights
and experiences to your show.
Okay, Mike, that kind of seemed like
a little bit of a setup, but thanks, co-pilot.
And we will have Lindsey Vonn on tomorrow
with us here on the game inside the games in Paris.