Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Day 5 – From Roommates to Rivals: The Olympian Balancing Act | The Game Inside The Games

Episode Date: July 30, 2024

How do Olympians balance the tension between being roommates and supportive teammates one day - and fierce rivals the next? On day 5 of The Game Inside The Games, Nastia Liukin and Dr. Michael Gervais break down the psychological conflict athletes face when striving for their individual success while also supporting the success of their team - and offer a way forward.Nastia recounts her own experience with teammate Shawn Johnson, revealing how their close bond was tested as they competed for gold. This episode highlights the delicate balance between camaraderie and rivalry – and explores how athletes navigate these complex moments and relationships.And in the end, Dr. Mike unveils the psychological strategies that we can all use to maintain relationships while striving for individual excellence.This episode is brought to you by NTT Data and Microsoft. NTT Data is transforming the workplace with Copilot for Microsoft 365._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Day five from Paris. How do Olympians balance the tension between being roommates and supportive teammates one day and fierce competitors the next? Welcome back or welcome to the game inside the games on Finding Mastery. I'm Dr. Michael Gervais by trade and training, a high performance psychologist. And I'm Nastia Lukin, Olympic gold medalist, and we are here in Paris. And in this special series, we unlock the psychology of pivotal, often unseen moments that can make or break an athlete's dream. What's it like to focus a lifetime of experience into one performance, a single moment? What goes on inside the minds of the brightest stars while the whole world is watching? Welcome back to Paris and let's dive into The Game Inside the Games.

Welcome back to Paris in The Game Inside the Games, presented by Microsoft Co-Pilot. I'm Olympic gold medalist Nasti Lukin. And I am sport and performance psychologist Dr. Michael Gervais. And together we're bringing you an inside look at the games like never before. One day you're rooting for your teammate, rooming together in the Olympic Village. And the next day you're competing against them in the individual competition. How do Olympians balance the tension between being roommates and supportive teammates one day and fierce rivals the next? We're going to find out. We're going to talk to someone today who has successfully navigated those

dynamics and won five medals, including a gold medal in the gymnastics all around and a silver medal in the team event, our own Nastia Lukin. Thanks for having me. Yes. So what was it like? So I think as teenagers, it was hard. I think that's what people don't quite realize. We were teammates, absolutely. But we all lived in different states. We all had different coaches. And so we were put on a team to become a team weeks before the Olympics.

So, of course, we knew each other for years. We had trained separately but competed against each other. And there was never a team competition until a world championships or an Olympic game. So it was challenging, I think, at times because at the end of the day, we were trying to beat each other. And there were only six spots for that Olympic team for the team. And then within that, there's the individual competitions, both in the all around the event finals and the way that the competition works is, you know, say for the event finals, top eight from the qualifying round go to the finals. Well, only

two per country. So pretty much on almost every event, the U S would have at least three athletes finish top eight. So somebody was always knocked out of possibly winning a medal. So it was, you know, things like that, that you always want the best for your teammates. You're always cheering for them. But at the end of the day, you're also trying to beat them. And then like you're going to sleep next to each other, you know, looking on the other side of the room at somebody that you care about and that you want the best for, but you're also trying to beat on the competition floor.

So two things. One is as teenagers, I mean, I'm so glad you bring that back up because the youth of gymnastics is sometimes overlooked and forgotten that you barely know how life works. You've been in gymnastics you know that's all you know right so you know the gymnastics world really well and at that age relationships are really tricky there's a lot going on and to be able to navigate it well is something i think we can pay attention to and when you're looking back do you feel like you navigated it well? Yeah, I think we did. I mean, I don't like to live with regret. I do think that we all did the very best that we could. Like we were supportive teammates. I think, I think the biggest problem or issue was not necessarily just us it was all the noise around us trying to like put us against each other

yeah so this is this is really important the best of the best of the best they're able to navigate that noise and concentrate really well it's almost like all that stuff fades away and you know what you're here for you know what it is that you're working towards but i hear you saying i was trying to beat her as opposed to i was going to just be my best well yeah so basically that was what i was trying to do but we all know only one person can win so So I think it's more just the, the idea of going from teammates one day. And then as soon as you're going to sleep the next day, you're not necessarily teammates anymore. You're rivals. Yeah. Okay. So there's not a right or wrong. Was that your orientation? I'm going to win or I'm going to be my best. No, I'm going to be my best. That was. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And I feel like for me, I didn't want to ever win just because somebody had a fall or a mistake or anything. I wanted everybody to have the best day of their entire life in that competition because that that is the true winner or that is the true standings. And sure, that doesn't necessarily always happen. And that's part of the sport, but I think, you know, you never want to win by like default. And so I think I truly think we all were like, we all did want the best for each other. It was challenging. Were you friends? Yes. We were like so close. And by we, I mean, Sean Johnson,

my teammate and I was, um, one two in the all-around at the Olympics and like we were like we read the same books we had like we really were very similar because we wanted the same thing I would love to have a conversation with the two of you because I bet it's it's more complicated than than we, anyone could really imagine other than, I think the way that we get close to it is when we're on an, in a same company where we're working together, but there's promotions and you, you know, certain resources go certain places if you do well. And so you want to do well for some of those external benefits. There's something there that many of us can draw on but there's a sports psychology first as the the lore of the beginnings of it started when there was a

professor who saw his son fish and then he noticed you know at the cadence of his fishing and then his son brought a friend over and then they started fishing together and his son throughout like i'll make it up double the amount of cast rods and so his son was doing a lot more more active more competitive when he had a friend around so sometimes having a friend brings the best out of us absolutely and that is i know we would both say that if sean was sitting here right now, I truly believe we brought out the best in each other and the level in like of gymnastics kept me like it kept growing and it kept getting more difficult. And we kept, we were every single month we would come together for training camps for two and a half days, three days. So of course we were like looking at each other a little bit,

you know, even though like we were friends and whatever, but like, you're trying to be the best version of yourself, but you also know at the end of the day, there can only be one winner in the individual finals, whether it's an event, whether it's the all around, but we both agree that, you know, we would, you know, especially on the days that you're tired or you're sore, you don't want to go to practice or whatever. Like that was a motivation at those, you know, some, some of those days. Like she's training hard. Yeah. She's going, I'm tired. I need to go. Yeah. Yeah. That's where it works really well.

And right underneath the surface, there's two things psychologically that would make a significant impact for you or for somebody. If you have a high self-efficacy, that's a fancy psychobabble word, but efficacy means a sense of power. So if you feel strong within yourself, then those folks tend to look at things more as a challenge versus a threat. So those are the two main variables, threat versus challenge. If you see it as a challenge like oh look what she's doing i'm gonna step up as opposed to oh look what she's doing man this is a threat to my whole world like scary yeah like this isn't like what's what what's wrong with me and and like she's getting more

resources or whatever it might be and so the threat piece spins out a whole anxiousness and then that gets in the middle of the relationship. It is possible. It is possible, but I don't know if it was for you. You, you can be whole and, um, have a great sense of self, want to do your very best. Also want to beat the other person. And also at the same time, want them to be successful. Maybe just want to be a little, you know, like you want to have your, your cake and eat it too. Yeah. So were you able to navigate that way with Sean? Yeah, I think so. I think that we both really were. And, you know, I think the hardest part truly was after the Olympics ended and we kind of went, you know, not our separate ways, but a little bit.

And, you know, she was off doing her post-Olympic stuff. I was off doing mine and it was just very different because we were as similar as we were like internally, we were complete opposites in terms of like our brand. And so if there was a sponsor, it was always like, they would never sign both of us. It was always either Sean or Nastia. Wait, wait, weren't you guys a cover girl? You know what? You're right. We were, that was probably the one thing that we had together. Easy breezy. Easy breezy. Beautiful. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, the first athlete cover girls. Um, yes, you're actually right. Everything else was always, you know, you either pick one or the other. And so I think that was hard because we wanted, truly did like each other and we were friends

and we thought it would be more fun to do things together. And it was, you know, again, like reminding everybody that we were teenagers. So how are you, like, you want the best for each other. You're so similar. You understand what you just went through. Like nobody else in the world can actually understand. There's probably no one else that really knows what it's like. Absolutely. And so now you have, you know, then you have each of your teams that are also like, you know, going against each other in the sense of like management and all of that and and it just became not great we for no reason they're like nothing happened it was just over time we didn't like really speak for eight years

and and it was just like we kept any time we would go to an event or somebody would ask about, you know, one another, we would just do our standard. Oh yeah, she's great. Like I haven't seen her in a while. She's, you know, we're both busy and just kind of move on. And like, we both saw, like, we would like stalk each other, like on, like, you know, we would like know exactly where, like we were and what we were doing, but we wouldn't follow each other. It was like very, it was, I would not do that part again, but I think. What got complicated? Why do you think that happened?

I think it. Was it just easier? It was just, no, I think truly it was like at the time, maybe management, like pitting us against each other almost. And then like the sponsors and like, it just kept growing and growing and growing to the point where it became, we started almost believing it as teenagers um and i think that was hard for us i could make a case that as a as a psychologist that it would almost be necessary when two people grow really close at a young age there's a chance that they grow too close

and they end up smothering each other and not being able to fully express themselves. So the time apart, I can make a case, would be one of the greatest things for the friendship. Yeah. To get to know yourself, to know what you really enjoy and appreciate, to know how other friendships work. So if you wanted to, you could come back and be great friends to each other absolutely and i think we both did want that but i think after each year that kind of went by it was like how do we do that and i'll admit she was the bigger person

and she actually reached out and her at the time fiance but now husband um andrew kind of like nudged her to do so and obviously grateful for that and for him and she texted me and and i remember getting the text i was in the middle of doing an interview for the new york times and she her wedding was around the corner and i wasn't invited oh there you there you go. Uh-huh. And I was like, that sucks, honestly. That hurt. And he asked me about it. Like, oh, are you going to the wedding? And I was, I was like, oh, I'm not sure yet.

You know, cause I was not about to say I wasn't invited. And he, I said, I'm not sure yet. I need to check my schedule. That was like my like lie, obviously. And it's amazing what we do to take care of ourselves. Yeah. But I don't know why I said that. Maybe like I'm embarrassed.

I have no idea. I kid you not. He got up to use the restroom. I looked at my phone and I had a long text message from her. So then he comes back. He comes back. I'm like, well, what I said about the wedding, I'm just kidding. But basically it led to us, you know, going, but we had changed numbers a few times. So we like, we didn't even have each other's contact info. And, uh, it led to us having

a in-person conversation. She was coming into New York for a work event and I was going to school there we met for the first like actually met as adults now and had like the first conversation I still remember like it was at the Bowery Hotel at Gemma and we like she walked in and we like hugged and like cried like it was a moment that like we didn't even need to say anything, but it was like, and I'm sorry almost for letting that this happen. And we like nothing happened. And that was like the confusing part, I think. And she's like, I've been watching everything. I'm so proud. You know, like we both said the same thing basically to each other. And she was like, it would really mean nothing more if like you were at the wedding. I understand if you don't want to or feel comfortable and I was like I would wouldn't miss it for the world and so I went and um

yeah it was just a moment of realizing that as much as sports can unite people whether it's a team whether it's the world you know you have to also take care of that and nurture it. And we didn't do that. I think. I love where you just took it. Um, the, we don't get to be in relationships if we don't take care of it. And yes, you had all this intense shared experiences. You had a separation. You had to come back together. And now it's up to like, how do you take care of that relationship moving forward? I had a similar experience. My wife, myself, we were friends in high school.

And we're dating in high school. And we had a friend that palled around all the time with us. And his name is Mike Cordellian. And the three of us were always hanging out and then as we got older um we got married and he found somebody he really he ended up marrying and then it didn't fit it didn't work and so it took a lot of pain and there's a lot of um call it separation yeah almost a loss from your life 100 and then we've come back around and so that coming back around i'm like oh let's leave like feel that it's actually deeper we don't talk all the time and no and live in different places in the world

but um but if she called me and if i called her like i i know for a fact if we actually truly needed something like we needed help or like it was, I'm not saying like we like don't answer each other's calls, but we're both busy, like actually. And so, you know, she's married and has kids. And so it's a whole different life. And but I know that if one of us called and said, I need like we would stop, like I would probably walk out of this and like go help her. And like, that's how I feel about my whole Olympic team. Like there's six of us and I'm the only child, so I didn't have siblings. So they're basically, they're my siblings in the sense of we all know and feel the same way about one another,

because when you experience something like the Olympics, you have this bond, like this incredible bond that's very difficult to explain for the rest of your life. And you don't like get to have that or create that or build that with anybody else. And it's your sport in particular is very complicated because you've got these radically intense shared emotions, teammates and rivals or teammates and competitors is probably a better way to think about it um when you think about a great teammate i think some of the characteristics are if i oversimplify it they really know how to support me a great teammate to me is and when i'm a great teammate i i know exactly how to support that person and how to challenge them. Did you find that as teammates when you're competing that they had the support and the challenge or was it like not clear because it was so complicated for a teenager?

Yeah, I don't think that we ever, I guess I can't speak on behalf of everyone but that was never my thought process like me that I think maybe more so like the challenge part like I think we all felt challenged enough like just being around each other and like training together, competing together in a weird way was a challenge. And I think supporting each other, that was like a no brainer. Like for us, it was super easy. So the support is real. The hugs on the side. Absolutely. When we want, yeah, no, no, it's, it's a good question. Yes, absolutely. And I think nice job. Yes. Like truly you, you nailed it. And when somebody, when they take an extra step or they fall off the beam or, and everybody knows that they're kind of out of a metal run at this point.

Um, is that hug real too? Absolutely. Because you truly want the best for one another. Like take away. No, you don't want the best. You, you said you want to beat her. Well, I want the best. I want to do my best and I want the best.

I want for her to do her well i i want the best i want to do my best and i want the best i want for her to do her best because i want but when she does her best and she steps on the top podium what's that like and you did that means i just need to go back and work harder and you did your best that's okay and you took it because that's all like that's all like not that you know what it's like to take a fourth i i'm sure i do i'm sure i do. I'm sure I do. Wait, actually. Yes. 2007. The one time. The all around finals. I fell on beam. I was wearing a purple leotard. Yep. Oh, I remember it. Never wear purple leotard after that. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. No, I think you do because you don't, like I said, like, at least for me, like I never

wanted to win just because somebody had a mistake. So if I had a mistake and you didn't have relief, she fell. No, no, no, never. So that hug is not like, no, no, no, no. Okay. So it was real. Like I feel you. Yeah.

Like, and what would you say to each other? What's being said on those? When a good routine or or a mistake or let's okay let's let's open it yeah let's say somebody has also see this is this gets even more like taking it to a step further is it the team competition or the all around finals uh let's go let's go all around it's a little bit cleaner meaning that you're truly competing yeah against so we're still wearing the same warm-up you know the same it's basically this well everybody used to always wear

the same all around the leotard and the all-around finals so it looks like a team yeah except the first time that that didn't happen was our year i guess we were the same leotard in different colors um and that wasn't like our choice it was just kind of like told okay um and so yeah i mean i guess nobody really had a mistake um there was a moment i remember that we both remember so clearly and it's a like we were bummed that the cameras didn't get it on the TV broadcast, but the photos that we have of it, they're so powerful. So what happened, it was the last event and the way that like it was, it was seated based upon the qualifying round, like the order. So I finished my floor routine and Sean was after me. It was the final event. So she knew exactly what she needed

in order to, you know, be ahead of me. But it was this moment that I had. So I had finished my routine, saluted, and I'm walking off of the podium as she's, I'm going down the stairs and she's coming up to go on her final routine. And we just looked at each other as we passed each other by no words were said, just eye contact. And we both just put our hand out like this. We had never done this before. We both like put our hand out and like to one another and just like grabbed each other's hands and the image, like there's one from each side. And it's just so cool because it was almost like a good, she was saying good job. And I was saying,

you can do it. No words were needed. And that was, that was it. So if that maybe can explain the relationship, how we actually felt, it's that photo. It's really cool.

Yeah. And we, and we both talk about it often because it was like that's the epitome of our of our friendship yeah that's really cool and that you've got it memorialized with a with a yeah yeah it's special so i think most of us will never have the experience like what you've just described, but we do have people in our lives that we work with and there is that tension. And I think, I think the takeaway for today is for me, at least is the self-efficacy piece is to really pour into having a sense of, I have power on how I decide how to do my life, independent of the external conditions, independent of the tension from another person, I can choose. And there's at least, there's five main components to building self-efficacy. Three of them are relevant here. One is when you feel

yourself keyed up and you've got tension or there's some extra activity in your body, butterflies or whatever, knowing how to manage that, knowing how to breathe pays dividends because you don't spill all over the place if you have a sense of how to take care of yourself. So this is one of the reasons why breathing imagery is to see yourself later being successful being a great teammate if that matters being precise and agile with whatever you're doing whether it's a beam or in business so using your imagination to do that and then the third is framing things as a challenge yeah rather than a threat to identity, but really seeing the specialness of the challenge and figuring out how to be excited about that challenge ahead. And if you can practice those three breathing training, not just when it's intense, but well before breathing training, imagery, and then framing things as a challenge, I think we end up being able to support and

challenge each other to be our very best. And back to the fish story is that when we do that together, we do create a rising tide where when you're a little bit better and it helps me be a little bit better. And on my off days, you know, we end up being just a little, maybe like two, 3% better, maybe 20% better who knows, but it creates something really special. So thank you for sharing. Yeah. Thank you for bringing all of your Olympic wisdom into this conversation. And I'm looking forward to more. Yeah. So am I. All right. Now it's time for our AI insights brought to you today by NTT Data and Microsoft.

NTT Data is transforming the workplace with Copilot for Microsoft 365. Hey, Copilot, based on this conversation, can you draft a letter to Sean that I could have sent her if I reached back out first in 2016? Dear Sean, I've been thinking about you a lot lately, and after all this time, I felt compelled to reach out. Okay, this seems a little personal. So I think I'm going to read it by myself first. I totally agree with that. And this has been a great conversation. It's a great way to use AI. And I love what Copilot's doing here for us. So you can, if, if, if Nasi approves,

you can check out on our website, um, the, the actual letter. So go to findingmastery.com slash the games. And we will see you again tomorrow from Paris.