Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Day 7 - The Inner Game of Winning Gymnastics Gold | The Game Inside The Games

Episode Date: August 1, 2024

It’s time to meet the moment. In Part 2 of this riveting conversation on The Game Inside The Games, Nastia Liukin and Dr. Michael Gervais continue their deep dive into the psychological intricacies of women's gymnastics.Building on their previous discussion about the preparation and lead up to the Women’s All Around Final, this episode focuses on the different components of this iconic event and the mental challenges unique to each apparatus.Nastia reveals the intense psychological and physical preparations required for the uneven bars, including the hidden complexities like dealing with different grip substances used by international competitors. She shares her personal pre-performance routines, the internal dialogue that guides her through her performance, and what it’s like to look up at the scoreboard after competing in the event she had dreamed about for so long.The conversation also highlights the upcoming historic competition between Simone Biles and Sunisa Lee – the first two gold medalists to compete against each other in an All Around Final. Nastia and Dr. Mike explore the razor-thin margins in gymnastics scoring and the mental fortitude required to perform under such precise conditions.Whether you're a gymnastics enthusiast or simply fascinated by the psychology of elite performance, this conversation provides an unprecedented look into what it takes to compete at the highest level of sport.In case you missed it, be sure to check out Part 1 (Day 6) on our feed.This episode is brought to you by LTIMindtree and Microsoft. LTIMindtree gets you to the future faster with Copilot for Microsoft 365._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Day seven from Paris. We promised you part two of my experiences and insights from the all-around finals. So let's dive back in. Welcome back, or welcome to the game inside the games on Finding Mastery. I'm Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training, a high-performance psychologist.

And I'm Nastia Lukin, Olympic gold medalist. And we are here in Paris. And in this special series, we unlock the psychology of pivotal, often unseen moments that can make or break an athlete's dream. What's it like to focus a lifetime of experience into one performance, a single moment? What goes on inside the minds of the brightest stars while the whole world is watching? Welcome back to Paris, and let's dive into The Game Inside the Games.

Welcome back to Paris and The Game Inside the Games, presented by Microsoft Co-Pilot. I'm Olympic gold medalist Nasti Lukin. And I'm sport and performance psychologist Dr. Michael Gervais. And together, we're bringing you an inside look at the games like never before. Okay, we're jumping back into our conversation, breaking down women's gymnastics all around. And in part one, we talked about your preparation. We talked about walking out of the tunnel, sticking the landing. We talked about, you know, vault and then next up, take us away. We're going to talk about bars and the other elements.

Yes, absolutely. So everybody's best event obviously is different. For me, it was the uneven bars. I knew that I had to hit the best routine I possibly could in order just to stay competitive with the rest of the field. I wasn't as strong on ball, even with that stuck landing, just as I had done in my dream. I knew that this event coming up right now was so crucial. And so I always felt more nervous on this event because I knew what was at stake. So it was even more important to put myself in that headspace of calmness and confidence, but also a little bit of that attack.

And so it's a very fine line of trying to balance the right proportions, I guess, if you will, of each of those, those feelings. It's a little bit like an equalizer. So when you're on the inner game or you think of a couple of dials, you've got the confidence dial, you've got the activation or the calm nervousness type of dial. And, and then there's the type of aggressiveness that you want. So there's these styles. That's kind of what the inner game is. First, you have to know what the dials are. And then secondly, you have to have the skills to be able to, you know, level them up or, or, or drag them down. And when you're on a four inch wide balance beam, right. When you're already

nervous and your heart is beating and just one little, little, like a pinky toe could be off and it becomes scary, but this is why we don't wait until these moments to train and prepare on the mental part of the game. That's exactly right. And I think that's what a great coach does too. You know, it goes back to the gym. You can't learn that in a competition. You have to put yourself in that mindset. And of course it's not really fully possible in the gym because there's no audience because there's, you know, there's no distractions, but you have to try your absolute best to do so. So you put yourself in training, at least for us, we used to go to another gym, you know, and just to get a little bit of energy. This is your 30 second touch. Go. You're not used to the surroundings. You're not used to the bars. You're not used to the noises at this gym. Cool.

Because when you become, when you train at a gym and everything is the same day after day after day after day, then it just becomes like you're normal. It's very cool. Now we're talking about bars. What was the 30 second touch like for that? Like what was the process? Bring us into when you were getting ready to go to your bars. So this is the part I feel like is not really talked about. If you're watching this happen,

and sometimes you don't really get to see this happen, the lineup on the bars and the all-around finals, it's all like seated based on the qualifying round of competition. Scores don't carry over, but it's based on that. So when the start list comes out, immediately you look who you're after on bars. Because we use grips. The U.S. The U.S. should must use grips.

Now, some of the countries don't. China, for instance, they use honey on the bar. So to paint that picture, your grips are going to get stuck. Wait, honey and chalk. Honey and chalk. A little bit of chalk, but some honey, yeah. And before you go into it, why do they use honey?

Because they don't use grips. So they don't use anything to help them grip the bar. And they need the sticky. The tackiness of it. Yeah. But with a grip, like for us, we use a grip. Your hand and arm could get stuck so badly that you could break your arm. It's very dangerous.

It gets like super sticky. Okay. So if you're, if you've got 30 seconds, China just finished. Well, you have to do it basically twice. So the 30 second touch, you're still. So basically I got the luck of the draw. I'm after the Chinese. Okay. For instance the 30 second touch you're still so basically i got the luck of the draw i'm after the chinese okay for instance 30 second touch happens this is also super fast so your coach is having to strip down hurry up and strip down the bar put chalk on it put water

on it put chalk on it again 30 second touch whatever because you're not doing your full routine but the second you get to the competition if you are after a Chinese gymnast, that someone that wears grips like we do, the coach literally runs onto the podium because you don't know how long you have. Sometimes a judge will take longer to score that routine before you. Sometimes they're so fast. And when that green light comes on, give 30 seconds to touch the bar. And if you don't, you get a zero. Oh, so you're so. Okay. It does. I've never heard this before. So I would imagine that when you're walking up, you're in a chill spot. You're trying to get yourself in the right place, but you're seeing your coach not, not chill at all. No frantically, if you will, You're trying to get yourself in the right place, but you're seeing your coach. Not, not chill at all.

No frantically. If you will, trying to be calm, probably not sending any signals. And how are you interpreting all that? So to be completely honest, I think a lot of times I would try to stand my back to the bar for that reason. And the green, the screen board is in front of me. So I'm looking also at that because my dad, who was my coach, he's not paying attention to that in that moment. He's kind of looking back and forth just to make sure the green light isn't on. But I'm just

looking at that because I know when that score comes up from the competitor before me, the green light is about to come on. Oh, so you're actually, this is interesting. So then I'm watching the score. You're watching the score. I don't want to be, but you have to be because that's the only place that the green light comes on. Oh, what a convenient place to put a green light. Okay.

So, all right, let's go there for a minute. You're getting ready to go and you're looking for the green light. Your coach is behind you frantically. If you're following following somebody that uses honey frantically trying to get the bar cleaned you are hoping he gets it right which happens to be my dad i knew that he'd get it right but you also don't fully know because there could be a few spots on the bar like you only have seconds and you don't know until you're actually doing your first swing or hike or whatever it might be. Absolutely. And let me get it right.

You could break your arm if he didn't do it. It's very dangerous, yes, if your hands roll, yes. And so let's go to that moment. You're waiting for the green light. You're finding your ideal competitive mindset. And you see an elite score come up. You see your last person just absolutely stuck it. They did a great job.

To be completely honest, I'm looking at the numbers, but I'm not looking at the numbers. Oh, so it's not like, it's not like going. I'm not taking, I'm not looking for her score at all. So let's say she gets an elite score. You hear the, you hear the, the, the audience erupt. Tune it out. You don't, you don't. You just, you, there's nothing you can do about it and if you were to hear it and saw that she had no late score i mean you literally can't

do anything about that okay so you and that's what you say yeah like not my business yeah good for her good for her yeah no truly good for her but like that's not in my control the only thing that i can now control is my routine and regardless of her score i know i need to do a good routine regardless regardless if she gets a great score or not that's right okay so whether the opportunity is there because she didn't do so well or she had the best score of her life i still have to do that same routine i still have to do my same best. It doesn't matter what she got. So seeing someone's score, sure, you can look at the scoreboard, but what is that going to do for you? Are you aiming to be your best or the best? I'm aiming to be my best, but I knew in that moment, if I was my best,

it would be the best. And is that a common theme for most gymnasts the in the all-around there's eight gymnasts that are out there well eight on each event so i mean there's there's quite a few but the top eight are kind of the ones that are really battling for for the podium for those top three spots would you say that most of them when when we're watching the event, one of the most celebrated events at the games, would you say that most people are trying to be their best or the best? And of course, you can't go into the minds of your competitors. Right, right. You know, I think that's an interesting question for those athletes because I think that is the difference. You know, I, I talked about trying to simply beat somebody else or trying to be the best. You can't, you can't do that. You have to be your best.

You can't try to beat someone. You have to be the best version of yourself. You have to have your best performance, not get higher score than somebody else. And that's that framing, that philosophy is what allows you to not be overrun by the crowd noise or the score next to the green light. I totally get it now. So I think this is really important for the viewer and the listener here is that your philosophy dictates a big part of how you respond to anything in life. And those first principles you can work on. You can be very clear. Look, my job is master what's in my control, adjust to, you know, continually adjust because I'm trying to be my very best. And the way I like to, you know, kind of frame it as control the controllables.

Yeah. Super simple. So simple. Yeah. Super simple. Things that you can't control, stop trying to control. And simple. So simple. Yeah. Super simple. Things that you can't control, stop trying to control. And so, you know, but the things that are in not your control, but say your coach's control. So he's finishing, you know, chalking up the bar. Then there's another element to, you know, the wires of the bar. Oh, like the torsion and the tightness of the slack. Yes. And every single athlete likes them differently.

And how did you like yours? I mean, I couldn't tell you exactly where, like tighter, but they would put a little piece, like a Sharpie or a little piece of white tape. So they knew exactly how to pull them up. But if you got confused with somebody else's piece of white tape or Sharpie, like these are all the things that are, can you imagine the coach too? The amount of pressure. And then it's your dad, the amount of pressure that he felt. And so then I would, when the green light comes on, I immediately make eye contact,

try to make eye contact with him to let him know I now have 30 seconds in case he's not paying attention. Okay. Not that he's not paying attention, but he's trying to do a million other important things. So as soon as I make eye contact with him and let him know, or he sees that the green, he's wrapping it up as quickly as possible, but he is frantically wrapping it up. So let's get you on the bar. Honey's gone. You're on it. You're, you're, you're standing in front of the bar.

Okay. You're about ready to go. You don't know if the honey's off. Okay. You, you hope. You hope, you hope. What is happening in that moment for you? I said the same exact thing every single time.

I would salute. I would fix my two grip just to make sure that the buckle was in. I would tighten my earrings. And then I would close my eyes, take a breath. And then in my head, I would say, keep a then I would close my eyes, take a breath. And then in my head, I would say, keep a positive thought because a positive thought cannot be denied. Oh, that's what you would say. And then I would mount the bar. And what did that phrase mean to you? I think it went back to making myself believe

that it wasn't about making it or not it was about how well i was going to make that bar routine for instance it's interesting because it's not actually having a positive thought it is more of a message it's more of a philosophy to yourself but you know what's interesting cannot be denied like that there's something probably pretty magical about that to you. I don't even know where it came from, to be honest. Like I, I just know that I, I did it for years. Like I, I don't remember the first day that I did it, but it was every single time, like not just at the Olympics, not just in a competition. It was every single time I would, like, if you go back and look at it, I do the same exact thing on bars.

And I never said it on any other event. There's a, that's really interesting. There's a clip right now of Simone right before she's about walking out. I don't know if you saw this, that she says, she's mouthing it. So we're kind of making it up. It's either, I got this or you got this. she says she's mouthing it so we're kind of making up it's either i got this or you got this i think she says i got this um so that idea that you're you're pointing your mind and your body towards the the thing that matters to you awesome yeah it's part of a pre-performance routine yeah okay so Okay. So then you actually are, are you actually thinking,

did dad get rid of the honey on your first rotation? Are you checking? I am. Um, not that, but you can't change anything at this point. Like if there's honey there, you have to figure it out. You have to adapt. And you're, so then you're thinking, I'm going to take it a step further. So my bar team specifically, everyone's routine is different. I went from one side of the bar to the other. I covered the whole, because I would do all these skills in a row. And, and a lot of people just kind of stay in the middle of the bars. But so for my dad, he knew it was important to get from there to there. He had to get the whole bar. Right. So it, I mean, it is like, there might be

honey here. So let me shift my hand just a little bit, but it's a deduction. If a judge knows you shift too much, but you're avoiding breaking your arm or not being able to do the next skill because I got stuck. Totally the game inside the games. It is. And then you're just thinking too, like, you don't want to think too negatively if there's honey because you know it's going to affect you but you have to also be thinking so in my mind i was going through my mental choreography in my head while doing the bar routine wait you're you're you're not just totally immersed in it and like letting it flow you're no no you're not i mean you're letting it flow your body is flowing but your mind has its own routine too so so while you're doing let's say a giant rotation and do you recognize like oh that was good or are you recognizing like okay no no i'm not saying

that was good or not i'm saying then what you're going to go do next so basically like a coach in practice in training talks you through your entire routine. It's just like kind of what they do. Okay, a little bit to the left. Okay, now kick your heels. Tap to the right. Like all those little things. They're giving you technical cues?

Yes, in training. But they're not allowed to talk to you in a competition. They say one word. It's a deduction. So you're saying everything that they have told you consistently. You're telling yourself all those same exact things. Well, this is totally new to me that you are, it would be the least potent thing to think about, which is a technical cue. It's not that it's wrong. You're on the right side of the ledger,

if you will. You're telling yourself what to do technically in order to make it the best possible giant, best possible whatever. And it's throughout the entire, from start to finish. So from that very first kip, cast handstand. And that's what you're telling yourself. Okay. Now, now toes up to the bar, like you're talking yourself through the routine, how to make it perfect. What percentage of time does it get so quiet that there's nothing there and it's completely fluid? You found the pocket. It's in that flow zone. head because he's not able to actually speak. And then you hear maybe one voice. If it's somebody else, our head coach, for instance, might, but you know, what's very interesting is I would, or your teammates, they're allowed to cheer for you, but I would only hear them.

I'm sure they were cheering for the whole thing. Well, I would hope, but you don't hear them until you need it oh that's really interesting so for me it was yeah right before my dismount i'm out of breath i'm exhausted it's a it's a tough routine so all of a sudden when i needed it i would hear them cheering i mean i'm i'm struck by that why how yeah because it's like there's a there's like another level that you're working from which is this this it's actually quite beautiful is that you're open to receiving what you need and it's almost like it's i I know I said it, it's like another dimension of the human experience. So this is not a robotic, you know, technique to technique to technique to technique.

This is like, no, I'm available to the unfolding moment. And if I feel like I need a little juice, my attention kind of shifts over to that way. And you hear them kind of, yeah, like, you got it. Yeah, right. Very cool. And all of this, by the way, is happening within 30 to 40 seconds. shifts over to that way and you hear them kind of yeah yeah like you got it yeah yeah right very cool and all of this by the way is happening within 30 to 40 seconds and i want to reiterate the importance of that statement because in some of the the events here you get you get multiple shots you get multiple games and um you only get one you get one shot at it. Yeah.

I mean, for, for in women's gymnastics, it's very common to just, I mean, it's hard to go to one Olympics and then on top of that to go to another Olympics, right? Like that's almost, it's becoming a little bit more likely, I guess you could say, or more common. And, but then to win. No, I totally disagree. I think or more common. But then to win... No, I totally disagree. I think it's incredibly hard to get to the Games. You were in the circuit where...

Yeah, I mean, it was. It was. But to go again was like... Exponentially hard. Yes. And to podium... I mean, it's really, really hard to podium. Back here this week in Paris,

Simone Biles has won the all-around gold medal. Suni Lee has also won the all-around gold medal. They are now back for the first time in history. Two Olympic all-around champions competing in the same exact final. We've never seen this before. What are you imagining this final is going to be like probably some of the best gymnastics that we will all witness in history under one roof at the same time and there's probably a game inside the game there because suny was i don't know she won gold at the last games when simone had a really hard go and she had to pull out.

Yeah, she did. And there was a, there's a narrative like Suni, what was it like to win gold knowing that Simone, like it was handed to you type of thing, which is not right. Yeah. I completely disagree with that because you know what she could have done? She knew Simone pulled out that we all did the pressure that she had in that moment knowing that now she could win so many would falter oh yeah there's a new element just absolutely crumble and then so bring it back to this games if there's a little narrative inside of her which is like

i only won gold because you can't you can't even think that. And to be honest, from that win to now, what she has been through, her health. I mean, she has been through quite a lot in the last few years. We're talking about Simone. With Sunni. Sunni. Yes. Okay.

She's been through a lot as well. Yes, just a lot. Everybody has, right? In the last, I guess, three years, not four, because of the delay of the Olympics. So for them both just to simply be here. Medals aside, I think they would both say the same exact thing. It's not necessarily about the outcome here. It is already history what they're doing. They've already just made it. And I know it's so funny to say that after all of, you know, all the

conversations that we've had, it's not just about making it, but, but sometimes for them, I'm not putting words in their mouth, but for them to have made it to this all around Olympic final, that's a success. For Simone to be here, um, facing down the twisties for her to face down the fear that she felt that was so overwhelming that she had to walk away. Danger. The danger. Yeah. Yeah. The, the, the fear that she felt that was so overwhelming that she had to walk away. Not even fear, but the danger. The danger. Yeah. Yeah.

The real risk. Yes, absolutely. It was physically consequential mistakes that could be happening. For her to come back from that is remarkable. And so it's an exciting game inside the games that we're watching in gymnastics unfold. And I have one more question for you about the inner experience. When you know that the margins are tight and that you're trying to gate that out because you are trying to be your

very best and each when you land you want to stick it legs together like that that beautiful kind of yes and then when you take one step you get a deduction you take two steps when you when you take one step, you get a deduction. You take two steps. When you take two steps or two and a half steps, what happens right after that moment? For me, I'm thinking one-tenth deduction, two, three. If you take a step that's larger than the width of your shoulders, that's a three-tenth deduction. So I'm calculating everything. So you go to math and analytics before you go to self like, Oh, gutted. You don't go to the future. Like everything's gone. Maybe if you have like a mistake where it's like you fall off the beam, perhaps like you're just devastated. But in that moment, I'm calculating everything because you cannot, sometimes it comes down and-around gold medal can come down to one step or even less than a step I've won a silver medal in world championships in

the all-around by I could have gotten a gold but I missed the gold by 0.001 so that is that is a step is one tenth deduction that is like a pinky toe. And so in that moment, you're as soon as you salute and you're done and now it's in the hands of the judges. So now your control, it's out of your control. You have no more control of the of that score. You've already done it. So then you're standing there on the side waiting for your score to come up. And for me, I immediately go to the math. I'm calculating every single thing that I did because I know what my, my, my difficulty. So it's your starting value should be. If I do everything the way that it should be done.

So if I'm not getting any skill devalued, if I make all those connections and I get the bonus tense for those connections, but I know if I don't, what is going to happen. And if you took a step or two, so you're doing all that math. So there's two parts to the scoring system. There's the stepping part. So that's the execution. So that is one side of it that I'm not quite touching yet

because that's the somewhat subjective side. The step's not subjective, but a little short on the handstand, your toes are not pointed, your knees are bent. So a judge can kind of see things a little differently. You know, the choreography aspect of someone didn't love the way you flow. Like that's all one side of it. So I'm putting that aside. Now I'm first and foremost thinking about the difficulty. Did I get the bonus? Did I get that connection? Did I make it in a handstand where it's now valued as an E versus a D? And a D is worth however many tenths.

So that's what I'm doing. So if you're looking into the camera and you're saying, why is she not excited that she made that great routine? Because I'm making sure that I got the highest level of difficulty that I should. So you're not playing a secondary game of looking stoic or being happy. I'm not trying to be one thing or another. I am literally doing the math focused. So whatever we're seeing when we're watching you as honest in that way, is that what happens for all athletes? No, no. You know, I think a lot of people,

the athletes sometimes don't even know their highest possible difficulty, let alone how to calculate it or what it is. They just they put it in the hands of the coach. But I think and not that I didn't trust my coach. I was just so in it. We both were. And you only have a certain amount of time if somebody doesn't give you the difficulty that you were looking to get. So the execution, you cannot make a, you know, you can't protest that score.

But the difficulty you can. If you feel that the judge didn't give you your highest potential score. You can protest. You can. But you have to be so certain that what she maybe devalued, there have been times that a judge miscalculated.

And so you can get another 10th or two 10s back too. But sometimes if you know the way that you did a certain skill, or if you had two skills, say for beam, you had two skills that were supposed to connect. You did the one skill and you, you, you kind of had a wobble, but you go into the next. So you broke that connection. So you don't get the bonus for that. So that's why I'm calculating. I'm going back through. Did I get that connection?

Did I wobble anywhere? You are doing all of that because you have to make sure when that score comes up and you look at both scores, you really only see the big number, but you see on the side, two small scores, the execution, which you're always trying to get as high, close to a 10-0 as possible. But then the difficulty is really what you're looking at, a 7.7 for me on the bars.

So I have a 7.7 and a 10.0. My highest maximum score is a 17.7. So you're trying to get as high to that score as possible. Yeah. There's a lot going on. There's a lot going on. Yeah. And then you're focusing on the next high to that score as possible. Yeah. There's a lot going on in your BS. There's a lot going on. Yeah. And then you're focusing on the next event too, by the way.

How do you imagine somebody like Simone does it? Does she do it differently? Is this similar? I think, you know, I've actually never asked her if she's calculating her scores. I know a lot of times the coach is kind of doing it. And it depends on the event, right? On vault, there isn't really a difficulty that can be devalued unless you really it's really bad.

So you're thinking you're replaying the step on the landing, the run back. And, you know, I know that's what she would be doing in that moment on bars. You know, in the past, she's kind of said, like, I'm just trying to get through that routine. You know, I know that's what she would be doing in that moment on bars, you know, in the past, she's kind of said like, I'm just trying to get through that routine. You know, that's not her favorite. So she just wants to get through bars, bars for her. Whereas for me, that was my strongest. I was not just trying to get through.

I was trying to make sure that I had the highest, you know, difficulty. I connected everything. I stuck the landing, whatever it was. And that is for her. That is the other events, beam and floor. When I was very early in my career, sports psychology was a bit more taboo or it was just a bit more, it wasn't used as much as it is now, which is an awesome progression. And folks would ask like, what are the, what are the athletes that are most interested in it as, oh, cage fighters and gymnasts? I would have to agree.

I mean, when I went to school, I wanted to major in psychology because I was so enamored by how did I do that and just the mental aspect to the sport. I didn't end up majoring in it. I minored in it, but I was just so, so intrigued by the mind. Yeah, obviously. Yeah. Well done. Thank you. All right. Now it's time for our AI insights brought to you today by LTI Mindtree and Microsoft. LTI Mindtree gets you to the future faster with Copilot for Microsoft 365. So today we told Copilot to pretend it's a coach for a professional gymnast.

Based on the current scoring system in women's gymnastics, we asked it for the highest scoring vault. So let's see what it came up with. Wow, so that's really cool. For vault, it shows that you're Chanko double pike, which is the difficulty of a 6.0. So that's the vault Simone Biles does. So basically that makes complete sense because nobody else in the world can do it except for her.

That is a really cool application for AI. Thank you, Copilot. Well done. And thank you, Nastia. Another great conversation. I really enjoyed this one as well. Thanks, Mike. So did I.

And we'll see you all here tomorrow from Paris on the game Inside the Games.