Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Day 8 – Second Place Heartache: Katie Hoff’s 16-Year Journey to Recover from The Games | The Game Inside The Games

Episode Date: August 2, 2024

“It took me 16 years to heal from being an Olympian.” That is a remarkable statement. On day 8 of The Game Inside The Games, Nastia Liukin and Dr. Michael Gervais sit down with former Olympian swimmer Katie Hoff to explore the pivotal moments of her Olympian experience.Katie reflects on her journey from a young prodigy to a two-time Olympian, discussing the psychological challenges she faced, including the intense pressure to succeed and the impact of bullying. Katie shares her experiences of overcoming these obstacles, the importance of investing in your mental health, and the process of healing and finding self-worth beyond medals. This candid conversation offers a deep insight into the authentic lived experiences and the resilience required to navigate the highs and lows of life as an Olympian.This episode is brought to you by IBM and Microsoft. IBM is unlocking business transformation with Copilot for Microsoft 365._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Day eight from Paris, when an athlete fails to meet expectations on the world stage, what is the impact of that experience? We asked a special guest to give us a firsthand look. Welcome back, or welcome to the game inside the games on Finding Mastery. I'm Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training, a high-performance psychologist. And I'm Nosti Lukin, Olympic gold medalist. And we are here in Paris, and in this special series, we unlock the psychology of pivotal, often unseen moments that can make or break an athlete's dream. What's it like to focus a

lifetime of experience into one performance, a single moment? What goes on inside the minds of the brightest stars while the whole world is watching. Welcome back to Paris, and let's dive into The Game Inside the Games. Welcome back to Paris and The Game Inside the Games, presented by Microsoft Co-Pilot. And as you can see, we have a guest joining us, American record holder, former world record holder, two-time Olympian, three-time medalist, Katie Hoff. Oh, so pumped to be here. I'm so excited as well. It feels like it's been a long time coming.

I know. I feel like we've just been like DMing back and forth. And then it finally came to fruition here. Yeah. So. And it's been even longer. Sorry to interrupt you guys. But for us, we were.

Yeah. We competed on the same team. It's amazing. In Beijing. Yeah. And I don't even know when the last time we saw each other was. Beijing. In Beijing.

That's sad. I feel like. Beijing. In Beijing. That's sad. I feel like. I know it's not like. Yeah. So thank you for bringing everybody together. It's really good. I know. It's so fun to talk about the game inside the games.

Like all the little things that normally don't get spoken about or brought to the surface because of, I don't know, media doesn't want to talk about it. But the psychology, the internal experience for the athletes is at the center of the whole thing. Yes. And so you guys both, you're legends in your field and the wealth of knowledge that comes from being inside the amphitheater, it can't be bought. It can barely be understood by many. And so we just want to celebrate those things that you've come to understand. So let's start. Let's just start with your experience. You were flying as a kid, like you were really good and the whole world

was recognizing what you were doing. And then you arrive young. What was your first games? First games was actually Athens. I had just turned 15. Okay. I mean, you couldn't even drive and here you are representing the United States of America. What was that like for you? Overwhelming. Overwhelming. I think people always say like, oh my God, I think actually now it's coming into view more of like, oh my God, because at the time it's just like, no, like you just make an Olympic team, you know? And now I have friends where they're like, my child is 15. I can't imagine my Billy in ninth grade going swimming at the Olympics, are you insane? But it's like you're normal. Like you don't know anything else in like a not bad way, but it feels very. This is really weird. It's your normal.

But it is. It's like it's all you know. And it's like you put a check by it. Like not to like take away from the actual experience, but it's like you train your whole entire life, all of like 15 years for essentially that moment. And you're just like, okay, cool. Made the team.

Like it doesn't feel strange. It doesn't. It doesn't. And actually this this i keep saying this people i went to the opening ceremonies for the first time obviously when i was competing i was swimming the next day so i didn't attend you've talked about this but it was the first time that i actually realized that the being an olympian is cool wait like as in a few days ago like yes a few days ago yes like i and obviously always knew it was like an amazing accomplishment but like being on the other side of it and sitting there and actually being able to see how the rest of the world and how people viewed an olympian i had this moment at the opening ceremony monies where i was like wow like this is really cool i can understand but so it was your first time yeah i mean have you been to you've been to like like a swim race since you've stopped

competing i've never been to this is my first olympics okay so i've never been to okay or world championships okay so really and yeah so i guess that would make sense yes but okay wait but i get it the overwhelming part like that's why i think it hit you later is because you were flooded the first time for sure with this feeling of overwhelm so normal but overwhelmed i want to understand the like did that hit you when you got on the plane? Did it hit you when you landed? Was it, what did you say the first one was? 2004?

Yeah. Did it, when you landed, when you first put on your uni, like when, when did the overwhelmment take place? I think it started to get overwhelming at camp and it's. The pre-camp. Pre-camp. Yeah. Let's explain that. Is that you're tapering to go to at camp and it's the pre-camp pre-camp yeah let's explain that is that you're

tapering to go to nationals and well no olympic trial so they don't do this anymore but you go to olympic trials you make the team you don't go home your parents send you stuff and you just go right into training camp that's right that was the same for you we would we would go home and then have our our camp was also another Olympic trials. So like it was like, yeah, it was only topped anyways. Similar. So that's typical what happens, I think, to a lot of sports now. There's a staging that happens before the games.

It's a training before the games. Yes. And that's, it's intense. This was it for most sports. Like you were training six hours a day. Yeah. Like it doesn't. Yeah. Nothing changes. But it's even more like you were training six hours a day yeah like it doesn't yeah nothing changes it's but it's even more like you're with your olympic team for the first time

as a team training just you guys together and it's also mainly mostly college kids so to be 15 i was homeschooled like there was some bullying like it just was not a comfortable and welcoming environment at the time wait amongst your why? Amongst your Olympic teammates? Why is that? I think, I don't know why. I think there were a couple people that just, I probably was just like a very naive, youthful 15-year-old. And I feel like at the time,

there just wasn't the same type of chemistry on the team. I feel like I look now, and it's obviously Instagram as a highlight reel, but there's a lot more youth. There's a bunch of 16, 17 year olds and they're all together. Yeah. Similar in gymnastics. Like you look at the gymnastics team now and in Simone is, you know, obviously the leader, but with Hensley, she just turned 16, you know, she was 15 last month. And so to see, you know, and hopefully it's like that across all sports now where, you know, these older athletes can kind of take the younger ones under their wing because especially you, you were there, you've been there, you felt that. And so I think that's like really

important when you're going into something and it's your first time, everything is like, whoa, you know, you don't know what to expect. You don't know like anything. And so to not have that, or to even not just have that but then to feel like even taking it a step further bullied or whatever like not supported must have been really difficult really difficult yeah yeah i was already feeling like because we talk about this too where you either have the goal going into of making the team or you have the mindset of like okay the team making the team is just a step step on the way for for the olympics yeah and for like for you it was a standard or expectations that you could medal uh i would say in oh four i mean i i went from essentially like nobody to

dropping 10 seconds in a year and winning both my events at trials. So it was like this, like there wasn't this gradual climb. It was like zero to a hundred. And I think for me, I'm always someone where it's like, okay, like I want to just gradually climb. And I just, it was the reason it was overwhelming as I just didn't feel like I was quite ready for the experience yet. So pull apart the bullying just a little bit. There's all of the anxiousness that comes with competing at a large event yeah and a sense of loneliness that you might have had because of the the age separation and the the kind of ostracized bullying piece is that fair like all three of those emotions yeah which like i'm like as a 15'm like, obviously I was overwhelmed. When you talk about it now, does it still have energy for you?

Like sadness or some sort of feeling that is in you now? Or do you feel like there's been some healing? There's definitely been some healing. I mean, there's a reason it's been 16 years since I've been back to my first Olympic games. So that's intentional. Oh yeah, that was like fully intentional. So like I've done a ton of work to get to that. So you almost, and you also chime in here and correct me, but blocked out maybe the thought of the Olympics being even cool, like any positive feeling about

it intentionally until 16 years later now, because you say it, you went to the opening ceremony and for the first time you realize like, this is cool. Like, did you intentionally maybe block that feeling of allowing yourself to feel it was cool because of the pain or the trauma that you had felt? I think a lot of it is I always viewed it like I have to be a gold medalist or it's not an accomplishment or it's not an accomplishment I feel good about. And so I think that was my awakening of sitting there like, no, like just being an Olympian is a really cool and incredible feat. And up until that point when people would say that and like, you know, you know that you're like, oh, you're an Olympian. Like, oh my God. And I would always kind of be

like, thanks, you know, and then dreading the next question. Right. Did you win? Did you, what'd you medal? Yeah. So I think that's a big piece of it. It sounds crazy, but it took you 16 years to heal from being an Olympian. Yeah. Yeah. From your Olympic experience. I think that that is remarkable. I mean, we look at the Olympiansians whether they medal or not like they're special

and different totally and and you're not you had a really heavy emotional experience and it was infused with the way that you understood yourself at a young person that's what we're trying to do who am i and whoa i'm not like them they're bullying me i'm kind of nervous and overwhelmed i feel a little lonely here and I got to go do something that is really quite electrically intense. So the trauma, some people might think, what? What kind of trauma are you talking about? That can flat out be real trauma. And so when the circus leaves town, this is a way I relate for folks that are not Olympians. When the circus comes to town and it's amazing and there's all these rides and the Ferris wheel or whatever those things are, and it's electric and lights and fun and people are celebrating.

And then when that circus leaves, there's lots of trash. The grass is trampled. It's kind of a disaster. There's an emptiness that's there and no one's like really attending to that part which is the post-olympic blues so you had pre-olympic uh unique stressors and then the afterwards you didn't feel great about your experience no i mean both oh four and oh wait but oh four i felt yeah i felt like i had failed you know i i didn't medal in 04 i made the final but um yeah i definitely went through like a i feel like 04 and 08 are very different 04

i had this experience of devastation but it was i had this feeling of like okay no like i'm gonna i'm gonna prove i was on like a comeback redemption so 04 to 08 you fueled with that yeah like that motivation oh yeah was it to prove others or was it like i know there's more in me and i'm going to work oh like i'm an affirmation addict it was definitely what does that mean hold on that that is a new shirt like i love your shirt right now wait yeah i mean i feel like i know i've never like heard it or used it but i'm like me too yeah no i'm, I'm addicted to affirmation. Like from others. Like I almost like from other people.

Like I want it. Yeah. I thought you were going like self-affirmation. Like I'm the greatest. I mean, that would be way healthier. Yeah. And way easier. Okay.

Less trauma. Way less. But yeah, I mean, that to me is like, yes, a little bit of wanting to prove to myself, but I was so affected by the comments in the media and stuff people were saying. And so I was like, okay, like I'm out to prove to people that I am here to stay. And it worked for a while. I want to get to the wild part. So does that in your sport, that intensity, that chip on your shoulder that like I, I'm going to show you, um, does that

facilitate a faster time or does that get in the way because you're trying too hard? And, and I'm in my mind, I'm thinking easy speed, which I'd love for you to talk about because that's a, it's a phrase in swimming that doesn't maybe translate. He brought it up once and I was like, easy speed. It's a great, it's the the best ever if you could buy it with money i'd spend a million dollars would you yeah okay all right well there's a science that would support it yeah right and so we can get see aren't you like i wish i would have known you i know i would have been swimming it worked really really well time-wise like i came back that next year made the world championship team won three gold

medals broke american right like it was just go but in terms of looking back and going did i truly soak up the experience and enjoy it no in a way or the training all i mean yeah in a way at me like i definitely had moments but i felt like it was a combination of myself coaches being like it would be like oh you do this next thing like check the box right so i don't feel like i had been present being present about this katie because this also is like if you think about living a great life it is not just from one to the next the check the check the check the check and then you're like okay now what i i'm retired i'm free like i've got money in the bank i'm okay but you have like i'm miserable yeah okay I don't want to put any words in your mouth. Yeah. But like the process. Yeah. You're like, why am I miserable? And then you map that out and you're like,

yeah, but it's like the same to relate it to like a non-athlete. I found myself doing that even just throughout my childhood years when I was nine, I wanted to be 10 to be double digits and then I wanted to be 13 to be a teenager and then it was 16 to like drive and then 18 then 21 and then like then I want to be taken seriously so I want to be 25 you know it's like you're rushing through life and so when somebody recently asked me what is your advice for these athletes here and I said they don't really need any advice but i would say be present like i know don't check the boxes don't check like i had a checklist on my bed taped on my bed not like crossing off the days checklist work though yes but also you're saying when you're boxed into the checklist and you're not you're just wanting to like hurry up and get through your list yeah it's like that movie click

where he just keeps pressing the button until like he's like 95 and he's just like well i want to get to this i want to get to this yeah and i actually don't i do the same thing people like what's your biggest advice and i'm always like there's nothing i want to say to you that you don't already know and like is it possible like i think it's very rare for athletes in it to be able to be present like i only know of a couple people truly hooked on that that. I agree. I was able to do it at my very last competition event at trials in 2012 when I wasn't making the Olympic team. So it was like everything was done and gone. And I was like, okay, this routine doesn't matter anymore.

I can be present. I took a second. I looked around for the first time in my life. It's one of the things I'm always asking athletes to do and people that are not athletic is make sure that you're soaking in moments that you're grateful for just wherever you're being like this is pretty cool but do you think this is actually nice that quality is also like i always feel like it's a double-edged sword like is that quality also what makes people really really great gratitude does great is your question does gratitude or does the edge

like this is yeah like focus i think yeah so i think to be world class at something requires an incredible intensity and edge like it's really grubby hard to do and to if you don't love that work process it's almost impossible yeah and if if you don't love it and you're doing it and you're still world class you're likely to be miserable on the if you find something in it you love you still found some misery so you found something that you love but you weren't appreciating it yes so it's like a counter rotation and i didn't i was a very anxious kid and i didn't know how to rotate gratitude to offset off balance it and so but i want to also understand like what what was the work you did to be able to find a sense of like i'm okay to be here what did you do because this is now we're speaking to everybody that's gone through something heavy that said,

I can't go there. I don't feel comfortable there. I don't feel like I can be me in that type of setting. So I'm going to stay away. What is the work that you've done? So the first, I mean, I jumped around to like different therapists, different things. I wasn't consistent. And I think the thing that finally made me do a really big step was we moved to nashville i always blamed it on other things i was like it's

this job it's this city it's this person yeah and i was sitting in nashville and everything was really lined up really good and i was still crying every day and i was like this was a year and a half ago and i was like what the hell like okay and then I thought I think for people it's realizing it's you it's it is not and it's me I'm the problem it's me and I think that I'm like okay and and at the very same time a mentor of mine had just gone uh to the Hoffman process I don't know if you're familiar and I talked to her and I signed up. I didn't even look at the site. I trusted her. I signed up. I went last July. It's like this insane intensive. You go through all your patterns that you create when you're younger. And I left the lightest I'd ever felt in my entire life. I think that the main message is like when you do the internal work, when you go sit with somebody that it could be a

wise grandmother it could be it could be a trained psychologist it could be a process that has been vetted what you know been around for a while but when you do the honest intern it could be a journal it could be a journal it could be mindfulness and meditation but when you do the internal work in an honest way and you feel and examine the hard parts, the parts that you've been wanting to push away and you allow yourself to feel all of that, you start to get more comfortable with the parts that you're embarrassed by or shameful of or that you're afraid are going to be overwhelming. Or you know that you're no longer defined by those moments, right?

Because you can't change those moments in the past whether good or bad and i think you know to your point to be back at the olympics for the first time that's like huge like that should be like and i hope you do celebrate that within but i feel like that we get to celebrate this with you in a unique way i know i know me too guys it's the first time i think it's cool to be an a living room. No, I know. I was like, I'm sorry, what? So it's not cool? I'm just kidding.

No, because it's all about your psychology. Totally. And the way that you're seeing yourself and the world around you. And so when you're watching the games and you're watching some of the athletes, I mean, you were touched out by four one-hundredths of a second. Is that right? Seven one-hundredths, yeah. And the four-hundred-three free which is like you know a four minute

race so it's like that's it's one 100th in the 50 i mean this is like you you run that back a hundred times i've never watched the race back oh you're coming back tomorrow we're doing this together we are not we're gonna go full in 60 more years so I went back it was awesome and then I didn't go back until 2032

because I went on this podcast and watched this race I was sweating it was unbelievable yeah right no okay have you replayed it

in your head hundreds of times yeah I mean I think so 2008, I was swimming. Actually,

it's funny. The race that I got touched out in was not even my best race. It was like, I mean, I was one of my top races, but the 400 IM is my best race.

I still have the American record in. Which also, by the way, You might want to say that again. I still hold the American record. Yeah, under your breath a little bit. You can say that again.

I still have the American record in the 400 IM. I am have the American record in the form. I am. But this race in particular, yeah, I just, I got touched out. And of course you think like, okay, is it the finish? Is it, you know, over the course of four minutes, there's a million different things that could account for seven one hundredths of a second. So you don't know yet to this day because you haven't watched it or you haven't well i so the i watched the finish because in 2012 i watched one of my best friends allison schmidt

i wanted to watch her swim and they did a replay of 08 and it sent me into like a spiral i can imagine yeah um and like being in that environment that That's right. Yes. Yes. And then like the relationship that you have with her. Right. Yeah. Like I'm watching on TV only because I want to watch her. Right. And support her. And then they replay like my most traumatic moment.

You know, you're not prepared. No, you're not prepared. This was like, I've seen this play out a number of times on world championships for folks. Even if you're like, even if you're competing will she be able to do it again let's look at 2008 yeah yeah and it's like that's not what i want on my blog yeah right the last time she fell on the beam i'm like no can we not talk let's not go back like let's not go back let's move forward yeah no no no no that's not that's not how it works here no so but i mean so go back going back to that i mean at the time when it happened, I still had more races.

So in my mind, it's like, okay, cool. Silver medal compartmentalized. I still got, I mean, I swam all nine days. So you're out touched. I look up. Was that, I want to go to the first. I touch and I'm like, I knew it was tight. And I was like, dear God, please hear my name.

Please hear my name. That's what, that was your first thought. Yeah. And then you looked up. Yeah. And two and what happened oh man i feel like i was obviously disappointed in that moment in that moment moment but not at the level that i think i would have been had i known that that was the closest I would get to a gold medal. Like I still had a ton of races left that I thought, you know, I thought our relay would get gold. I thought, you know, I had another shot in a couple of their, so I was, it was like, yes, disappointment, but silver medal. Cool. Onto the next, I have more chances to win a gold medal.

So this is really important because there's come to find out later that you, all of those expectations and you take another silver. Yeah. I mean, it was like day one was bronze, which is the foreign, which was actually like you broke the world record at trials. It was a great swim for me again. Bronze, silver. Okay. But like, I still have time to win in a gold. Yeah.

Yeah. to win a gold yeah yeah did you look up so when you see your like a number two by your name do you keep looking at like the time like immediately to see how close it was it's probably instantaneous like it was like second by how much like it wasn't even like a okay second like oh my god like celebrate it was like because i i you can see i mean yeah and of course like we always say second nothing against a silver medal. It's like incredible. But when you're so- When gold is the goal.

Yeah, and you're that close, that's a hard position to be in. And then fourth place, when you're so close to being on the podium and winning a medal. Yeah, which I did twice the next day. Oh my God. So what can you- I'm like, okay, never mind. No, no, I'm saying because i can speak to it very very well

yeah it's no it's like i think that there's more to teach from that perspective yeah then i then somebody who is almost a freak that wins everything it's like wait hold on you're not like me here because you've won everything and i've i've lost plenty so this is why i like some of the greats when they say looks i've lost more i've won i've learned more from losing yeah i agree with that you're you're extraordinary and you understand the pain of being just that close which i think a lot of us understand yeah what is there something to not to be a reductionist but is there is there one important takeaway that you could think about for the listener who's like or the viewer who's like how do you deal with that how do you like have a gutted experience and then get back together i think one there's there can't be a timeline like i think uh

there cannot be a timeline because it took me a really long time and so giving yourself grace in however long it's going to take. Yeah. It's going to take. And then going something else that you said is like, you know, talking about like the journaling or how do you overcome trauma? I don't, I genuinely don't think that most anyone can do it on their own. Like I just have this opinion.

I've seen so many people be like, no, like I'm to journal. And I'm going to go to self-reflect. No. Just like you need a coach for everything else. I think it's telling yourself a lie. And I think people start and stop, start and stop. And then they don't break through to the other end. And that's why I did Hoffman. Because I was like, I need someone to force me to do it.

Like you said, just like we did in training. You can't show. The accountability, the wisdom, the perspective. And especially when you're used to being coached your whole life. Yeah. I mean, like you're used to having that guidance. And it's that painful. No one wants to be in pain.

No one wants to make themselves go there. Like, and that's why you have those people to be like, no, no, no. We're going to run through the fire. Like we're doing that. Yeah. Awesome takeaway. That was good. Katie, thank you for sharing your suffering. Thank you for sharing

your wisdom. Thank you for sharing your smile and your laughs about the whole thing. And for being here, like at the Olympics, again, that's like a huge accomplishment. It truly is. And I hope you feel that way because it is cool to be an Olympian and it's just cool to obviously like know you as a human, as a person. But I think, I think a lot of people will be able to really feel and hopefully learn that, you know, everything that you've been through, like you're still like, you should still be proud of yourself. You should still feel that you're way more than, than all of that, that you did. And just again, by being here and with us, we're happy to have you and proud to know you and proud to have you here. So thank you. And I love your podcast, Unfiltered Water.

Thank you so much. Yeah, it's so much fun. So much fun. And you guys are having a great time. And I want to support people to go check that out as well. Thank you. Yes, Unfiltered Waters, another product of Hoffman, got back and I was like, I'm ready. Let's start the conversation and do similar to what you guys are doing, like uncover the

layers beneath the surface. Awesome. Thank you, guys. All right. Now it's time for our AI insights brought to you today by IBM and Microsoft. IBM is unlocking business transformation with Copilot for Microsoft 365. We talked about the power of gratitude today. Hey, Copilot, can you create a prompt and outline for a daily gratitude journal?

Copilot has a way to be able to do these things quite well. And if you want to check out this journal prompt, head over to our website, findingmastery.com forward slash the games. Thanks, Mike. It's so great to be here in Paris and I'm loving these conversations. So see you all tomorrow on the game inside the games.