Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Dealing With Your Feelings: Purpose, Death, and Perfectionism | AMA Vol. 10 with Dr. Michael Gervais

Episode Date: August 28, 2023

Today, we’re really excited to share the 10th installment of our Ask Me Anything (AMA) series! Thanks for coming along this journey with us over the last 10 months—sending in your questions and sharing your notes of appreciation. It’s an honor to sit down and film each video. We’re stoked on this 10th AMA and all the excellent questions we received. Our co-host, O’Neil Cespedes, is back again to make sure we keep it real. In this video, we dive into topics like:How to find your purposeWhat do you do if you’re given 6 months to live?Dealing with your feelings and emotionsWhy perfectionism is a fool’s gameDesigning your life for your eulogyHow to find a rewarding jobAnd so much moreSubmit YOUR questions to [e-mail]_________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. I got a call on the way in today from a friend of mine. He says, I got some news. I've got six months to live. I mean, what do you do with that information? Welcome back or welcome to another Ask Me Anything on Finding Mastery. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training a high-performance psychologist. And the purpose behind these conversations, behind these AMAs, is to hear from you you to explore the topics and

questions that you've been wrestling with on your path to becoming. The goal is to expand on the themes and lessons and best practices that we've discussed on the Finding Mastery podcast in order to make them even more applicable to your own life. Now, our co-host, O'Neill Cespedes, is back. Let's make sure that we keep it real. We dive into your questions on how to find your purpose, dealing with your feelings, why perfectionism is a fool's game, designing your life for your eulogy, and so much more. So with that, let's jump right into volume 10 of Finding Mastery's Ask Me Anything. O'Neal, AMA number 10. Number 10, Dr. Mike, how you doing?

I'm doing great. How about you? I'm gonna be real with you. I'm gonna be real so I can relate to people out there. I'm tired. I'm glad you said that. Yeah, I'm getting it. I'm kind of feeling the same thing.

You feeling the same thing too? Yeah, travel and sleep. I've got the intermittent wake up kind of thing that i'm doing throughout the night so i'm working through that i see my mind's a little different i um i had a war with a duvet cover oh yeah this sounds serious yeah it was serious dr mike and some people out there might be laughing but let me tell you it's not i'm laughing actually you're laughing yeah yeah it took me an hour to figure out how to put a duvet over a comforter. I've never experienced anything like it in my life.

You wanna talk about this? Yeah, let's talk about it. All right, I wanna talk about it. Oh my God. I don't understand why whoever created the duvet doesn't make it simpler. Like why don't they, if you don't mind me venting for a little bit,

why don't they make it like a sandwich? So in my mind, the comforter, right? Is the meat and cheese. You feel me? And then the duvet top should be the bread on top. And then the duvet bottom should be the bread on the bottom. And then you button it at the edges, right? I think you're onto something.

I'm onto something. So whoever out there make it, and then I want my cut. Uh-huh. It's not there make it and then I want my cut. It's not quite how it works. Yeah. It was tough. It's a good idea. I think it's a great idea. It's a good idea.

I came up with that while I was struggling for the hour. I wonder if it's already been done. And you and I just don't have any exposure to it.

What do you think? I doubt it because if it was I wouldn't be going through what I've gone through last night. So yeah. All right.

Good. Well, so with our DeVay challenges and our intermittent sleep issues. We're both going through what I've gone through last night. So yeah, yeah. All right, good. Well, so with our DeVay challenges and our intermittent sleep issues. We're both going through it. Let's go through it. We're gonna muster through all this and then get it done. Yeah, no, again, I don't say this lightly. I'm stoked to be here with you.

I'm stoked to be here. And I have a great time to do this with you, so. It's always great. It's always great. And I love the questions. I'm curious to dive in and see what we have here. Okay, let's do it. All right, the first one is really here. Okay, let's do it. All right.

The first one is really simple. This is from Dr. Tim and he says, Dr. Mike, how do you find your purpose? Sounds simple. It's actually a pretty big question. And so first thing I hear that is like, how do you find it? And I'm not sure if he's asking me personally or like theoretically. And so I'll do it for me personally. And I want to ask you about yours. And then maybe what we'll do is just talk about some of the theory that supports what purpose is. For me, I think it's important to share that growing up, I didn't know what I was doing. And there are people that at an early age seem to have clarity of the vision of their future, like what they see themselves doing and great clarity about the things that bring them joy

naturally. And so if you have those two things, you're like, I feel alive when I play the guitar and I want to be a professional musician, something like that. I didn't have that. And so I kind of just bumbled along for a long time and followed the breadcrumbs of things that were interesting and off color and off access and zigging when my friends were zagging. And I just kind of liked that counter approach to life. And so I did not have a path. I did not have clarity of purpose. But I was committed to like in an uncommon way to get better at the things that I enjoy getting better at. So that led me down this path of wanting to understand more the things that were holding me back.

And what was holding me back in my life was not my physical or technical skills in sport is, you know, from an early, early age. It was the psychological skills. And I knew that I didn't, I didn't know how to use my mind. So I just kept studying and trying to unlock and studying formally and informally. And, um, it eventually led me down this path. So I now know my purpose. I'm pretty clear about what it is. And it's to help other people live in the present moment more often. The reason that's so important to me is because the present moment is where wisdom is revealed. It's where high performance is expressed. It's where all things

that are amazing and true and honest are experienced. So the present moment is the keyhole for the good life. And so I'm really clear about that in my life now. But I just, this is a preamble and a bit of a narrative to say that it's a really big question. How do you find your purpose? It's a very big question. And what I help some people do is I help them pay attention to thin slicing at first. So the thin slicing is,

if you don't think about your purpose for your whole life, no problem. You know, it's kind of trying to wrestle down an elephant. Think about just getting your arms around the trunk first. What is your purpose as a fill in the role? So what is your purpose as a son? What is your purpose as a parent? What is your purpose as an athlete what

is your so fill in the role first and if that feels a bit too big as well you can thin slice it even further and say well what is my purpose for today what is my purpose for this week and so you can wrestle with dimensionality about purpose and one other part of this conversation, this is more theoretical is that purpose has three components when we study the research around it. And so purpose is, um, it has to be bigger than you. So it's not just solving your needs, but it's something that you can't solve alone. So it's bigger than you.

The second is that it has to have personal meaning to you. So nobody can give you purpose because that has to matter bigger than you. The second is that it has to have personal meaning to you. So nobody can give you purpose because that has to matter uniquely to you. And the third is there's a future orientation, meaning that it's something to solve on a process. So it's not like you can completely solve it today. So there's a future orientation has to matter to you. Variable number three and number two. And the first variable is that it's bigger than you and so that's kind of a bit of a theory a bit of my journey

and um maybe a tactic to think about how to get closer to your purpose yeah so how about you like where are you on the journey for you that was a very interesting explanation because for me um i always say interesting when it's like kind of boring, but you don't want to be disrespectful. No, no, no. That's kind of what the word interesting means. I'm like, what the hell is he talking about? He's interesting. No, no.

Let me tell you why I said that. I'm going to first explain to you my side, and then I'll tell you why I said yours was interesting. I always knew what my purpose was. I think for me, I ran from it out of embarrassment because what I wanted to do not many people are successful in doing and so because not many people are successful in doing it I didn't want to go tell my peers or my family members that's what I want to do because I didn't want them to laugh at me right

allow me so so wouldn't you say purpose in doing, is this more of a goal or is it like purpose? Purpose. Purpose. Purpose. My uncle used to come over for dinner all the time and my mom would make him dinner, Jamaicans. And then I would put on a show. I would just perform for him.

He'd sit on the couch and I'd perform all the time. Crack jokes from being little to a teenager. And he used to always be like, that boy, I'm telling you, that boy is funny. That boy, he should be performing. I knew that's what I was supposed to do. But as I got older and the real world started setting in, I started dealing with real world practicality. And I remember going to college and instead of being a theater major for undergrad, I

was a telecommunications major because it got me a little close to television and film, but I wasn't about to tell people, Hey, I want to be an actor because it wasn't, you know, only a small percentage really make it happen. So I just didn't want to be shunned. I didn't want to be laughed at. So I ran from it for the longest, right. And I would hide it and I would go to, and I would perform in plays, but I wouldn't tell my friends because I just didn't want to be shunned. I heard a pastor one time on my campus, on the church campus say, if you want to know what your purpose is,

listen to what other people tell you. Meaning like people will tell you that, multiple people will say, hey man, you're really good at, you know, for you, for example. I know people don't normally say what I'm about to say, but I'm just're really good at, you know, for you, for example, I know people don't normally say what I'm about to say, but I'm just gonna use you for example, you're really good at teaching people

how to be in the moment, find that stillness. And that kid knows how to make people be in the moment in a way they're stillness. And that never happens. And that never happens, right? But if multiple people are telling you that, then Dr. Mike, you probably should be helping people. That's interesting. You know, when I hear you say that, then Dr. Mike, you probably should be helping people. That's interesting.

You know, when I hear you say that, I have actually an aversion to it. And there's probably like outsourcing the collective wisdom is the strategy, right? And so pay attention to the narrative that keeps coming up. If I were to outsource it, I would be now living the purpose that the quote unquote they wanted for me. And this is that love I have for the counterculture. Like that would never sit for me. Yeah. Even if the they was technically and accurately correct.

Yeah. I still wouldn't be able to swallow that they recommendation. And so I don't know if that's unique to me or if you vibe with that in any way like this. Well, no, that's the same reason why I said what you said was interesting because the way you explained it was so practical and it made a lot of sense. And for the same reason why I hid what I wanted to do was for the same reason why I did it, right?

I was hiding it from people because I didn't want their opinions. But on the flip side of it, right? I was hiding it from people because I didn't want their opinions. But on the flip side of it, they were the ones saying, hey man, you should be doing this because you know what I mean? And it was like, yeah, I do want to do that, but will you judge me?

It's just a weird thing. And I talked about this last time, and I use this analogy about the fairy godmother flying in and if she had her wand and said, hey, Dr. Mike, and you're a little kid and you don't know that you're going to be Dr. Mike.

If I could wave this wand and grant your wish for what you want to do with your life, what would it be? But you have to be honest with me. I want you to tell me the truth. What do you really want to do? Give me the Cinderella version, right? Miracle version. Don't give me the practical. I don't know how many people would be honest because the world, the outside world

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protein, P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com slash finding mastery. And with that, let's jump right back into our conversation. When I hear that, I actually think the honesty is the right standard. But to be honest, you have to be clear. And I do think that most people, like in the conversations I have with people, even those that are like the single best in the world at the thing that they do literally better than anyone else on the planet is that they still struggle with purpose so this is different than like being exceptional at something that doesn't to me ring the bell for what purpose is it's not big enough it's like what are you doing with that yeah and so simon sinek was you know popularized the know your why And it's another way of thinking about purpose. Like, why do you work so hard? Why do you want to be a musician or an actor or a comedian? Like what is the underneath

big driver for you? And I, I don't think it's for me. I like where you're saying the honesty thing, because I wouldn't want people to judge critique, which is a whole nother conversation. I think the first kind of note to hit is like, I need to get quiet and I need to listen and I need to figure out whether it's writing or talking, meditating, whatever it might be to get clear about what am I doing and why is this so important with the limited amount of time I have? And I'm going to add one second note here to this conversation. I got a call on the way in today from a friend of mine. He's a psychiatrist and he says, I got some news. I've got six months to live. And so it was up to six years.

The average for the diagnosis is three years. And I mean, what do you do with that information? If you were given that information, what would you do with that? So I do want to know what you would say. And also, this isn't the right word because it's overused, a sobering moment for me, for him, to say, how have we been as friends? And the secondly is how have you been on your purpose? Thirdly, how have I been on my purpose? Not as friends, but purpose in life, because we don't know when the shot clock runs out. We don't,

it's not a 24 second shot clock. Like we don't know. So how would you respond if you knew that you had six months to six years with an average of three years to go? If I'm being painfully honest, I'd break down. And then after I break down, I would try to live my life to its fullest because now I know that it's about to expire. Are you not doing that now? I think I'm doing it now, but that it's about to expire. Are you not doing that now? I think I'm doing it now, but that's a good damn question because I think I'm doing that now, right? But I'm also under the impression that if I got news like that,

it would expedite how hard I'm going. It would expedite everything. So it's a function of intensity for you? Yes. Intensity in what direction with family members if I'm telling you I love you once a day I'm gonna tell you I love you ten times a day so it's intensity in relationships if I'm if I'm touching grass and a flower I'm walking on the ground barefoot and I'm feeling the the Earth beneath me I'm feeling it 10 times more intensity

of presence yes I'm taking the time and being more present I'm spending more me, I'm feeling it 10 times more. Intensity of presence. Yes, I'm taking the time and being more present. I'm spending more time alone, I'm meditating. I'm really, an ex of mine used to always during sundown, point to me, point at the mountains. I'm like, look at the sun, look at the sun setting. And it's so beautiful. And I'd be like, can we just turn on Netflix? What the fuck?

I've seen the sunset a million times. Oh my God. Right? You know what I'm saying? Cause I'm present, I'm all about 2023. I ain't trying to see no sunset. I wanna look at my phone. But I'd always be like that.

And one day I was thinking to myself like, man, there may come a time soon, not God, not soon, but there may come a time when I'm like, I wanna see the sunset. I wanna appreciate it and take it in. It's hard thing to do unless you have a gun to the back of your head telling you that you don't have much time.

I've tried it, Dr. Mike, I've tried it. I've tried to enjoy sunsets. What is it about sunsets? I love sunsets. I mean, they are all right. Yeah, right? Seriously? No, no, they're beautiful,. I mean, they are, right? Seriously? No, no, they're beautiful, but I mean, there's a phone.

Dr. Mike has a phone. Phones exist. It's way more stimulating. It's way more stimulating. I can see so many different things, but I think that just being present is the thing that I would focus on the most. It would intensify everything for me.

Think what happens, so we understand that being present is a keyhole to what I said, the good life. But also when you're present, you touch suffering. You touch the pain that comes with the acknowledgements of your flaws and the things that you haven't quite hydrated or watered properly. So there's like this double-edged sword

with most things that are meaningful. And I think that it's so much easier for me, for others, to flip on a phone and flip on TV, to even read an interesting bit of research or a novel or whatever it might be, because it's a bit of a distraction to touching the suffering. And so, but you know, as a multi-den artist, like there's only one way, which is through. But can I ask you a question? Yeah. Why is that? Why do we, when you were saying that, it made me think of a scene in Major Pain. You remember Major Pain, the movie?

This is the worst game. Okay. Okay. So he's a guy that used to be. You bring me back to locker, all the locker room jokes I've ever been in. It's like, remember that movie? And I'm like, ah. Like, I'm terrible at this.

This will go fast. Damon Wayans is the character and he's a guy that's used to being in the war a lot, right? And he gets out of the war and he doesn't know what to do with himself. I'm bringing it back. So they bring it back, right? So he's in charge of a military academy full of kids.

And there's this one really cute kid and he doesn't know how to express emotion. Damon Wayans doesn't. And the kid hugs him and he's like, I love you, Major Payne. And he's like, really cute kid and he doesn't know how to express emotion. Damon Wayans doesn't. And the kid hugs him. He's like, I love you, Major Payne. And he's like, when the kid hugs him, he's really uncomfortable. Like, you know, he doesn't know how to how to react to that. In many ways, I'm like that in some in some instances.

Why are we like that? Why do we not want to get close to the suffering or the emotion or why do we want to run away from it? Yeah. So let's kind of break it apart first and then maybe give a treatise of what that is. So there's emotions, which are the physiological sensations readying us to take motion, to fight, fight, flee, freeze, whatever that might be. So the emotions are observable. They're physical. You see the sweating of the palms. You see the heart rate changing. You see breathing changing. You can see the flushness or dilation of pupils. You can see emotions. You can't see thoughts. They're completely invisible and private

and you can't see feelings. So feelings are the interpretation that you're having of the emotions that you're experiencing. So what you're talking about is why is because we are not practiced, at least in the United States and the Western world, we are not practiced in dealing with emotions, dealing with feelings. And so they're new, they're uncomfortable and they're overwhelming. They're big. Emotions are big. Feelings, this is like the interpretation of them and the experience of the feeling. If you're not practicing anything, it's hard. And uniquely, humans have this ability to have feelings and

emotions and make sense of the entire experience. But to be great at them, which is a unique quality to the human condition, you have to practice them. We, I grew up in a sandbox where I was told, suck it up. I was told big boys don't cry. I was told, Hey, um, my dad would say I'm, I'm, uh, like I'm eight years old and he's going on a trip for, for work. And he says, okay, take care of the house now. So I was told like, be a man and be hard. And like, no one ever said numb that stuff down, but they didn't want me to get bullied. They didn't want me to be a quote unquote sissy. They didn't want me to be made fun of. And they were trying to do their very best. They, meaning my parents, extended family, the neighborhood that they're trying to do their very best. They, meaning my parents, extended family, the neighborhood, they're trying to do their very best to protect me from getting whipped around and being soft.

However, now I'm playing a shell game. Now I'm only a version of myself. Now I'm just presenting a certain way rather than being about it. And so that ends up being a very fragile way to go through life. So I know, I think you would recognize that sandbox, but I don't know for sure that that sandbox is not the way through.

And that's why we're not good at it. And we don't value it in the right ways. When you were saying that, I was thinking to myself, like, has he ever experienced that as a grown man? Because I experienced that as a child as well, right? I was reared like that. And I thought it would dissipate when I became a man and an adult,

and then adults were in touch with their emotions and whatnot, but ha ha, that's not the case. You don't practice it. You don't get good at it. I was at Airwine with Austin and some people and we were talking about something, $18 shakes. I of course didn't purchase them, but I don't believe in it. I was drinking water, because that's what I talking about something. $18 shakes. I, of course, didn't purchase them. No, you did not.

I was drinking water because that's what I do, right? $12 pickles. Yeah, $12 pickles. You know, I'm not with that. But I was sitting outside. Maybe you feel bad enough sitting outside. Shout out to Air One. There's plenty of people that might not know what it is

because it's the beginnings of a chain. I don't think it's like a mature chain at this point. Oh, Air One? Okay, so Air One is a place in Los Angeles, California where you can get a $20 shake, some $20 ice cream. Inflation is real. Yeah, inflation is real. $15 burritos, it's extremely expensive,

and it's also a scene. You'll see celebrities and stars there and whatnot. And people wanna go there. It's like a grocery store club. So you get dressed in your best fit and you go to Airwine and you post up, and you might come out spending a couple Gs on some groceries. It's like a grocery store club. So you get dressed in your best fit and you go to Airwanda, you post up and you might come out, spending a couple of Gs on some groceries.

It's crazy. I walked into Airwanda to kind of see what it is and people are taking selfies. Like it is definitely. Yes, it's some out of a movie. If you were from the Midwest and you didn't know, you'd think it was a joke. And they love it.

They love it. They are ridiculously priced. Oh yeah, I drove by there on Sunday when it was like 97 degrees. I was just driving by and it was, it was for lack of a better word, like a scene out there. And I was like, look at them. I drove to the gas station.

Because they're real. But there you are. No, no, I drove past them. Oh, you drove past them. To the 7-Eleven. All right, good. Because I'm real. I'm where the regular people at.

99 cents for real. Yeah, right, okay. But I'm there with Austin, because he wanted to go. And I was with some people and we were talking about something and I said something to the effect of, you know, I'm an empath. You know what I'm saying? I take on other people's feelings and everything. And him and the group started laughing at me.

Come on, Austin. Exactly, right? Come on, Austin. And when they started laughing, I immediately recognized it and reverted back to my alpha male thing. And I was thinking like, but you know what I'm saying? I beat y'all ass though, cause I fight. And I was like, why did I?

When I sat down, I was like, gosh, no one, why did I say that? But that's my inner thing to protect myself so I won't look soft, but I really wanna be soft. You feel what I'm saying? I wanna be soft. Listen, so one, you studied the arts yeah right yin yang is a real thing and in the in the the the side with all the light there's a little darkness and beside the of all the

darkness there's still a little light and that balance of equal opposites um you can't be really strong and tough if you don't know the tender side of the human experience so like get on with it like you know, we need heroes like you. We need the cool kids to show us the way, you know? Exactly, Mike, I appreciate that. Yeah, it's like psychologist nerds are not gonna, you know, we're not gonna carry the torch here in the right way.

So like, but we do need strong, thoughtful men because that, and we need strong, thoughtful females and anything that you might identify with to be able to, those that are exceptional at skill, and it could be interpersonal skill, but those are exceptional at skill, when they add this dimension, that is what modern leaders look like. And so we're at a deficit in understanding how to work well with emotions. We get pissed, we pull away, we attack, we, we don't raise our hands or say anything because we're flooded. We stay numbed in relationships. We drug and drink and sex ourselves to distract from the feelings because they're so big and overwhelming. And, you know, like I'm

excited for this part of the human experience. This is like humanity next. We had the last couple of years, like, and I don't want to get started on this narrative. I do want to get to more questions, but we had the pandemic and, and, and, and, and the tide went out and it, it revealed who's been swimming naked. And I only mean that from a psychological standpoint. People that were playing the part in dressing a certain way, but underneath the water, there was nothing. They didn't have anything. They weren't wearing it because they hadn't done that work because no one was looking. No one valued that. And so it's a very exciting time because

it's not unprecedented that I've said this numerous times, like the dark ages were hard. 1700s were hard, you know, for some people in the United States. I can go on and on and on. There are people right now that are living in the worst conditions that humans have ever lived in right now, globally. So, you know, there are hard times that people, it's such an ivory tower to see, to think about unprecedented times. And I said it early. I swallowed that pill early, too. And I'm doing my best to course correct here because humanity next is going to force us to attend to the inner life. And that's what's happening right now.

It's an exciting time in that respect. Definitely is. And now one final word from our sponsors. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday.

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Question number two from Sonia. Hi, Dr. Gervais. I listen to your podcast every morning when I wake up and some of my favorite episodes are your AMAs. Cool. I am a university student and a varsity swimmer doing an internship for the summer at an automotive engineering company. The company works people to the ground. I've noticed a lot of engineering companies and engineers in general don't take care of themselves. It's frustrating when I want to prioritize my health by going for a walk or eating healthy food. How does someone who loves engineering find a company where I can balance both my physical and mental health and find a rewarding job?

Thank you so much. Did she give a name? I missed it. Sonia. Sonia. Okay. So, Sonia, the first thing I would say is, like, nice job in how you're thinking about it because you're putting yourself in a position of power. Like, how do I go about finding something as opposed to what's wrong with the industry or what's wrong with whatever. So she put herself in a position of power where she's basically saying, I'm going to choose and I want

to choose well, how do I go about doing that? So I think it's part of the interview process is understanding culture and understanding purpose. So if you can understand their culture and you can understand their purpose and you fit with their culture. So culture is nothing more than a set of relationships that are living throughout the hallways. Like that's what culture is. Culture is the artifact of relationships. It's the way that people treat each other when it's easy and when it's hard. That's what culture is. So understand the culture, like what are the relationships like here? And you might have to ask some people, you might have to, you know, to do a little homework and dig into that a little bit and then understand their purpose. What is the purpose of this company? What are they trying to do? What's their why? And then if your life purpose fits with their purpose, now one and one equals 11. And if you like the way that they do relationships, you got to fit. So one is interview for that. And I think that that's a very

powerful position for a person to take. The second is if it's like going to pay and you need to take the job and like, okay, and they don't quite hit those two marks. Okay. Gotcha. Then you have to have the internal skills to be able to navigate the difficult external condition so what i'm suggesting there is break the mold a little bit you know go in be about it see if you can lead see if you can take people with you see if and if they don't like it can you take care of yourself in that environment and if you can take care of yourself well, they're paying properly to you and it's a trade-off that you're willing to take for substandard relationships or substandard purpose. Okay. Well then that's a job. And there's nothing wrong with that. I would like my children

or my family members or you, O'Neill, and me, myself to be able to, and Sonia included, to be able to interview in a way that finds fit. And that's what we found at the Seattle Seahawks over the nine seasons I was there is that fit mattered more than talent. And if you can do that work in the interview process, I think it's a really important part of presenting well and aligning your efforts

with somebody else's, the businesses. I agree with the second part you said about if you need to take the job, because I was thinking that too. I was like, what if you just need to take the job and you need the money? How about you just don't even worry about, you know, them fitting with your purpose, take the job, and you handle that outside of that. Is that possible to just, because that's, if I was Sonya,

that's how I would approach it too. Like, okay, they don't, you know, this is a place, they don't allow me to do this. They're not really big on taking care of yourself fitness wise and whatnot. I'm going to get up at four in the morning or five in the morning, get that out the way. So when I get there, I'm not even worried about that anymore. My first job was at a gas station. Like, was it, you know, I had one of those red rags out of the back of my pocket.

You know, can I check your oil, ma'am? You know, like that wasn't serving my purpose, but I needed to needed to make money, you know, and that was a way for me to do it. And so, um, yeah. So sometimes the, the money that you make is fueling your purpose and it's a, it's a trade time for money. And so then you just want to get that trade, right. To fuel your purpose. If you can do the first thing i said it's pretty radical yeah yeah it's like and that's where that that's where whether you're entry level or middle management or you've been at something for a long time when you're really good at something you get to choose in a different kind of way yeah you know and this is the choice

that i'm making uh that i'm suggesting when you're really good and you have a command of yourself and a sense of mastery of craft, and it's about being on that path wherever you are right now, choosing that path. And you put yourself in different conversations and different positions in life. So, Sonia, my strong encouragement here would be wherever you land, you know, is to make the commitment to not let your external environment dictate your internal experience. To lead.

And leadership is not marked by just somebody who's the best or making the most or is the top of the food chain from an org chart position. Leadership happens because you know how to listen, you know how to have a vision and how to mobilize resources toward that vision. And so like, get on with that. And the fact that you're asking that question, like, I think that you're already thinking in that direction. And, you know, fit is awesome. And, um, understanding how you can align all of these for, you know, your, your best life is, is something that, um, you're taking the power back. And so those are the encouragements I have for you. All right. And Liza, Liza says as a head coach, I help young

athletes recognize making mistakes as a part of the learning process. Yet, I personally struggle with perfectionism. When I was an athlete myself, I was great at this. But as a middle-aged adult, I'm having a hard time practicing what I utilize as an athlete and what I preach to my athletes. So any tips for adults to combat perfectionistic tendencies? Long-time fan. Love the show. Come back to Seattle for another live show, please. Long-time fan. Love the show. Come back to Seattle for another live show, please.

I didn't know you did live shows. Yeah. You didn't tell me about them. We did one. It was awesome. It was up in Seattle. Coach Carol and I had a live conversation. It was awesome.

It was fun. So, okay. I think the place that I would start here is like my antenna pops on the joining of two words, combat perfectionism. And so I don't think that's going to get you through it. And so that's like being hard with something hard. And so work with perfectionism or relieve myself from perfection. Like there's another framing that I think would be more important. So I'm going to pause that. That's the first thing that I hear.

The second thing is that we can't give what we don't have. And we do give what we do have. So if you're working from a perfectionist model, you are giving that anxiety and that unrealistic strain. And so I've talked to world's best in a number of sport and industry, and they'll say something like, well, I'm trying to be perfect. I know it doesn't exist, but that's what I'm straining and striving for. That makes no sense. Does that make sense to you? I know it doesn't exist, but that's what I'm straining and striving for. That makes no sense. Does that make sense to you? I know it doesn't exist, but that's what I'm working on. I know it doesn't exist. So does that make sense to you?

It makes no sense to me whatsoever. So how do you, I've got a couple more ideas, but how do you answer that when you hear this question? It's kind of ironic because from what I've gathered over my years of living, you find the magic in the flaws, right? So if you find most of the magic in the flaws, why would you be looking for perfection? That's the way my brain processes it. I want to make as many mistakes as possible because that's when I'll, I'll, I'll find some, some, some good things, some tidbits, but yeah. So what I think happens for people that want perfectionism is that they're, they're ringing

a bell from an early set of traumas. And that early set of trauma is as a kid, as an adolescent, whatever it might be, you made some mistakes and that's what you did. I did for the first, like, you know, two years for sure. I was a, you and I were bumbling around the world physically. We didn't know how to stand yet. We could barely talk. Like there's lots of learning, lots of quote unquote, not perfect, you know, like mistakes being made to figure out how to work in the world. And then at some point you spilt the milk and somebody says, and rolls their eyes and gets pissed off. And I'm using the milk for just about anything

that doesn't go according to plan to that adult. And then so quickly we learn like, ooh, something's not right here. When I do those types of things, adults, people that are gonna provide for me, that are going to take care of me, are pissed off or angry or upset. And all of a sudden, it got scary. It got a little intense. So we start to learn that mistakes are not okay very early. And so then as adults, we start to work in a way where we say that I'm going for something that doesn't exist.

I'm straining for something that doesn't exist, which is just problematic for many reasons, logic alone. And so we've internalized this thing that what we're really trying to do is gain favor. We're trying to make sure that if we had the perfect game, if we had the perfect something that finally will be accepted by others. So you're linking perfectionism to trauma. I'm linking, it's a triangle, perfectionism, trauma, and acceptance. Those three. Yeah.

And so, I don't know, I think that I'm much more interested in establishing high standards and an appreciation for the path to be consistent with those standards, far less interested in perfectionism. And so I think most people hear that and they're like, oh yeah, that's right. But then the question is like, how do we do it? Yeah. So I've never ever thought about it like that, linking it to trauma and acceptance. So why is it that we're stuck on these cliche sayings like shoot for the stars, at least you'll come down with a stardust.

Why are we still using that as this barometer? No one's ever said that. I say that all the time. That's interesting. Yeah, I mean, I read that in the book and I've been saying it ever since. I heard like shoot for the stars, at least you'll land on the moon or something like that.

You remember the stardust thing? I read that in What Makes a Great Great by Dennis Kimbrough. And ever since I read it, I was like, I'm gonna say this all the time. Hey man, you need to shoot for the stars. At least you come down with a Stardust. So good. Okay, so yeah.

So I think that there's something completely wrong with the idea, for me at least, is like I want to work in reality and I want to work in the truth and I want to work in an honest way, straining, striving, trusting, letting go to learn how to be, these might die in six months is that the thing he said to me is that he goes, it's, it puts in clear view that ambition is not what I think I thought it was. It is about relationships. And so that, that straining for perfection is really about like approval. If it is, if the theory is right, it's about approval from others,

which is not the relationships that I want to be in. Anyways, I love the unlock. I love the ability to feel what it feels like for something to go, oh, it makes sense now. Oh, that's how this, oh, that unlocking feeling, whether it's physical, emotional, psychological, whatever, that, I got it. That makes sense to me. I wonder what I'm going to do with that now. And that unlocking to me is like, that's the gold dust. If not, yeah, that's a gold dust. Use the stardust metaphor. And then think about Viktor Frankl, one of the great psychologists, psychiatrists of our time, went through the concentration camps, survived the concentration camps, came out, wrote about it, developed a theory around how to be well in life. And one of the things that he talks about is that we are far

more capable than we think we are. And to help another human be their very best, we have to aim high because the trade winds of the world are pushing us south. So we need to aim almost unreasonably north. And he's not setting it up in a way that that unreasonableness is unattainable like perfection, but aim high, go north because the trade winds of the world are pulling you south. So we have to work against those trade winds. We have to work against the forces that want us to be average and normal, if you will. And so that aspirational like aim high, I think is really a powerful idea. And I think that most people that I spend time with and maybe that you do as well, like recognize that unreasonableness of aiming high and recognize equally so that perfectionism is a fool's game. Yeah.

And, you know, going back to your friend who said that, you know, he only has six months. When we have countless people that experience things like that and then they're in the thick of it, right? And they tell us, they're it right and they tell us they're experiencing it and they tell us hey guess what i've discovered from this thing that's happening to me right now that it's about relationships it's not about perfectionism it's not about taking the the term aim high literally and aim too high you know these are the things you need to focus on yet and still we still do all these things which leads one to believe that we're doomed to i'm not being a pessimistic person

because i'm not a pessimistic person but if you're questioning the world and questioning people it would lead one if i'm an alien and i come and i'm doing a study on people on earth and i see these things it would my uh i would deduce that humans are just doomed to repeat these cycles even though they get these constant examples that they shouldn't be doing this why do we keep chasing our tails like that yeah that's a great i don't know i think it's a great observation great question and um i'm on record saying that pain is the reason we change and uncomfortableness is how we grow. And it seems like a bit of a fatalist approach. That's my experience. And there was some research

to back that idea up. And we are exceptionally skilled at avoiding pain. And so many people, not all. And so I think that when we feel emotional pain and we, at some point, like I think about family members that have struggled with addiction and addiction, like when you cloud that emotional pain with a substance, you don't really feel the pain. And so he had to hit his head as hard as a human can hit to make change. And so there's, there's ranges to it. I think pain is probably the unlock. And maybe one way to think about this idea is, are you designing your life for a great resume or are you designing

your life for your eulogy? And that is not my framing. That's not my idea. I think it was David Brooks that designed that. If I, if I have that correct, we'll put it in the show notes if not. But that idea is a cool framing. Are you living to pack your resume where it's like, wow, this person did a lot? Or are you doing it for a eulogy? Like how do you want people to feel about the impact you've made in their life? Yeah. Wow.

Yeah, that's powerful. Yeah. How are you doing it? Resume or eulogy? Eulogy. Come on, Dr. Mike. Are you? Yeah, come on, man.

I don't care about no resume. While we're on the concept of death, if you will, I'm not clear on this, but what do you want people to say at your eulogy? I want people to say that he loved everyone. He made me laugh. I want people to say when O'Neal came around, I wanted to stick around. Well, that's cool. When O'Neal came around, I wanted to stick around.

Well, that's cool. When O'Neal came around. I wanted to stick around. Damn, that was gangster. I gotta get myself a couple of bags. As I was saying, I was like. Unpack it, unpack it. What does that mean?

I just created that. I just said that right now. But there's nothing else for home. Of course there is. I just sounded cool. So my resume. No, I mean, when I come around, I want to make you feel good. I want joy to come into your life as soon as I step into the room.

I want you to laugh. I want you to be like, oh, man, I'm glad you're here, man. Don't ever leave. You know? I love that. There's a partner for Instagram. So it was one of the early folks at Instagram who was on this podcast. And he shared, when I asked him about his purpose, he said, I want to be the highlight

of every person's day that, and I was like, what do you mean? Like it almost sounded narcissistic. Yeah. And, um, and he's like, no, I just want to be so vibrant and be so connected that when they think about their day, they're like, that was awesome. Not so they think about me that way, but because I was able to contribute in that way to their life, which is a really cool way to think about relationships. So say yours again one more time. I want when I come around for y'all to stick around. Yeah, that's good. I like to wrap a good t-shirt.

That's really good. That almost sounds like your purpose. Could that be close? No, I would say that is, Dr. Mike. I just made that discovery right here, right now. And I'm not just saying this for camera. Yeah. Yeah.

I want to give of myself. I want to make people feel good. There's nothing better in this world. It's like a, this is going to be a terrible analogy. It's like a crack high. I've never been high on cracker. I'm assuming that's what it would feel like. Yeah. It just, it just feels good. It just feels good to give of myself and to know that I brought, I put a smile on someone's face. There's a universality to that, which is that when you, so there's a best practice when people are anxious, depressed, or whatever the struggle might be, is to volunteer, to give of yourself. And it's one of the best practices for helping people through a tough time from an emotional, mental standpoint.

It's funny because I feel like it's a full circle moment because it's coming back to purpose. And you were asking me, and I was saying what i want to do and whatnot and and acting is my vehicle acting is my vehicle to make people stick around when i come around come on there we go listen this is always fun. Thank you for the energy you bring. And I look forward to these days. And so maybe that's a little nod that your purpose is tuning well, at least here. I look forward to these days. You bring this out of me.

Yeah, that's fun. I love it. I love it. If we could just get together like seven days a week, it'd be great. We could do that. Yeah, we can do that. Yeah. I appreciate you. I appreciate it. If we could just get together like seven days a week, it'd be great. Yeah. Yeah. We can do that. Yeah.

I appreciate it. I appreciate you too. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of finding mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the

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