Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - Decoding Disruptors: Bozoma Saint John, CMO at Endeavor

Episode Date: February 8, 2020

I'm excited to introduce you to our new series, Decoding Disruptors, a special edition of Finding Mastery, presented by Microsoft. For the past 8 years, Compete to Create and I have had the privilege of working with Microsoft, beginning with their CEO, Satya Nadella, and his executive team -- and then an additional 30,000 people across the company.Microsoft has radically transformed under Satya’s leadership, with his emphasis on building a culture around mindset, inclusion, and diversity, to empower every person and every organization on the planet to achieve more.  This series is the company’s initiative to celebrate 9 female industry leaders who have disrupted the narrative in their businesses, industries, and communities. We filmed each episode and created condensed clips based on their insights. You can watch them at decodingdisruptors.com.We've also decided to release a few of the episodes with extended footage on the Finding Mastery podcast feed – and in this first episode, I sit down with Bozoma Saint John.You can listen here.Bozoma's a marketing rock star who has led some of the world’s biggest brands.She’s currently the CMO of Endeavor, formerly William Morris Endeavor, one of the most powerful talent agency's in Hollywood, that sits at the epicenter of culture.Previous to that she was at Uber, Apple Music and iTunes, Beats, and PepsiCo.Bozoma was inducted into Billboard’s “Women in Music Hall of Fame” and was also featured on AdWeek’s cover as one of the most exciting personalities in advertising.All that being said, Bozoma’s superpower is her authenticity.In this episode, you’ll get a sense of how she unapologetically brings herself into a room and just lights it up._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding Mastery is brought to you by Remarkable. In a world that's full of distractions, focused thinking is becoming a rare skill and a massive competitive advantage. That's why I've been using the Remarkable Paper Pro, a digital notebook designed to help you think clearly and work deliberately. It's not another device filled with notifications or apps.

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stay present and engaged with my thinking and writing. If you wanna slow down, if you wanna work smarter, I highly encourage you to check them out. Visit remarkable.com to learn more and grab your paper pro today. Welcome to Decoding Disruptors, a special edition of the Finding Mastery podcast presented without interruption by Microsoft. And I want to share a bit of my backstory, my relationship with Microsoft. For the past eight years, Compete to Create and I, we've had the privilege of working with them, beginning with their CEO, Satya Nadella, and his executive team, and then an additional 30,000 people across their company. And Microsoft has radically transformed under Satya's leadership with a really bright emphasis on building a culture around mindset, inclusion, and diversity, with the aim to empower every person and every organization on the planet to achieve more.

When Microsoft talks to its customers about reinventing their business, of course, they talk about technology and data security, privacy, but the real kind of deep rooted essence of it, the one thing that really drives organizational transformation is cultural change. And they understand it. They've been living it and breathing it for the last handful of years in a very dynamic way. And this series is the company's initiative to celebrate nine female industry leaders who have transformed themselves and their businesses. So Microsoft is fulfilling its responsibility of bringing these incredible

stories to its customers. I gotta tell you, this organization truly cares about people and their psychological skills that they need to be able to flourish. So I couldn't be more excited to partner with Microsoft in bringing this series to life. Decoding Disruptors takes a deep dive into the minds of these extraordinary women who have disrupted the narrative in their businesses, their industries, and even their communities. And in a culture that we're just mesmerized by tips and tricks, strategies, shortcuts, and advice to be successful, my intention was to illuminate something far more grounded, far more foundational. The beliefs and the inner narratives that shape our identities and set the parameters for what's possible in our lives. And in short, I wanted to understand the mindset of these women who have mapped their own course in the world of business. I sat down with each woman and we filmed each

episode. I gotta tell you, for me to be in it, it was incredible. And we've created condensed clips based on their insights. And it's really amazing. You can watch all of them at decodingdisruptors.com. And we've also decided to release a few of them with extended footage on the Finding Mastery podcast feed. And this is the audio feed, the audio version of it. In the first episode, I sit down with Bozema St. John. She's a marketing rock star who has led some of the world's largest brands. She's currently the CMO of Endeavor, formerly named William Morris Endeavor. And that's considered one of the most powerful agencies in Hollywood. And they really sit right at the epicenter of culture.

Previous to that, she was at Uber, Apple Music and iTunes, Beats and PepsiCo. Bozeman was inducted into Billboard's Women in Music Hall of Fame. So she was also featured on Adweek's cover as one of the most exciting personalities in advertising. And you'll want to see how that translates in video on the DecodingDisruptors.com website. This is just a real spark about how she communicates. And so all that being said is she is a superpower in authenticity. And in this episode, you'll get a sense of how she unapologetically brings herself into a room and that authentic way just really lights up the environment. And with that, let's jump right into the first Decoding Disruptors conversation with Bozema. Boz!

Hi! Hi. Yeah. Okay. So let's set the table just a bit and walk me through how you grew up. Like what was it like early days for you? Ooh, man, very wild, very disjointed, sort of all over the place, constantly trying to reinvent all the time. That's what childhood felt like for me. That's okay. So for childhood, most people, it's like trying to figure the world out a little bit, looking to our,

our parents and our community to try to get the message of who we're supposed to be and how the world works. Yeah. So where, where did you grow up? Well, I was born in Middletown, Connecticut. My dad was getting his PhD. And shortly after that, we moved to Ghana, which is where both of my parents are from. My father joined the government and he was a member of parliament and quite dramatically there was a coup d'etat, military takeover of the government when I was just about five, almost five. And my father then was thrown into military detention, which is basically prison.

Okay, so we're getting right into it now. This happened right before, yeah. So we're at year five now. We've not gone anywhere yet. What do you remember about? What was that like? Yeah, some of my, I mean, definitely very visceral memories from that time.

I mean, I remember it very clearly. And essentially, there were like bits of memories, but overall the feeling of uncertainty and fear and, you know, my mother crying and my dad trying to make everybody feel like it was going to be okay. Like that's my general sense. But I remember details like the fact that when we were leaving our house and essentially escaping, my mother dressed myself and my younger sister, who's about 15 months younger than me, in these maroon velour dresses that were really soft, you know, and the little white socks, the ones that fold over with the lace, that were really soft you know and the little white socks the ones that

fold over with the lace that were kind of itchy and the hard bottom like patent leather black shoes that were hard on our toes you know and and remembering that it didn't feel like escape it was another night okay and what what did it feel like it felt like we were going to a party. Okay. So mom and dad had a way of grounding you from a upheaval, basically from the family and the community around you. So is that fair to say that you grew up, earliest memories were about an upheaval?

Yes, for sure. Earliest memories about moving, moving quickly and having to readapt quickly. And then if you, if you, if we punch out of that experience as a young girl and you come all the way up to you as an adult now, how do you think that that has shaped you? Just that one small micro intense. Oh man. I think a number of ways. My ability to reinvent. There it is right there. Probably comes from that moment. Oh, my hair's standing up because when we follow your career, you have been able to do that multiple times.

Yeah, yeah. Without fear. So reinvent without fear. Yeah. Okay, so there was fear. Well, you had some fear. Help me understand this part. This is where I start to come alive in the conversations because the essence of becoming involves struggle and challenge and sorting things out from the inside. And so what were you sorting out from the inside at that very young age?

Yeah. you sorting out from the inside at that very young age? Yeah, it was a combination of understanding, first of all, why we needed to change or move. Not necessarily being able to get the answers from anyone. I would assume that they felt I was too young to explain it to you. When you're five. Exactly. When you're five, right? Yeah, a little. Come on. Don't make too much noise and come with us.

Yeah. But I feel like that is also my current life, where sometimes there is change and there's no one who can tell you why that thing is happening to you. Either they don't know it themselves, or they do know and they don't want to tell you. Which do you think it is for most people? I don't know. Sometimes it feels a combination. Yeah. You know that like there's some subconscious thing that's happening within them and they are reacting to it and therefore trying to force you to change. But they can't really articulate it because they're not aware of it.

Mm-hmm. And then yes, of course, there's lots of times when people know exactly what's going on and don't want to tell you in fear that you're going to react Not the way that they want you to yeah, and I don't know if that's what happened at a young age for you But certainly you wanted information. Yes, I want to say you want to understand why yeah And then if we were Ryan just a little bit further from that five-year-old experience. What was your dad studying? Oh Ethno musicology and anthropology. Oh, yeah. Of course. Okay.

Yes. Tell me. Music. Essentially. The music of ethnic people. Okay. Is that why he wanted to go back to Ghana? He wanted to go back because he loved the continent.

He loved Africa. He felt that this idea of the talented 10th, you know, W.B. Du Bois talks about it. You know, you take the intellectual capacity out of the continent and put them all over the diaspora, and then the continent is left bereft of some of its smartest. And so he wanted to go back and contribute. That's why we went. Wow. Okay. So we saw that with Hong Kong.

We've seen that in multiple forms, right? Is this exodus of intelligence. And it's usually based on some regime that is squeezing the talent out yeah okay and so he he is more of a revolutionary yes in respects but you light up when I said that way do you identify with that for your father or for you for myself for sure for you yeah yeah and and and him but I think he's a more academic and quiet revolutionary than i am okay yeah okay so then from leaving under the cloak of whatever at the in at night that you're leaving what are some of the other natural events and experiences that took place

that were informative for you hmm well um man well we, we left Ghana and came to the U.S., arrived in Washington, D.C., under political asylum. Okay. And I do think about this current time in our country in which we think about political or any refugee or any immigrant and what that sort of welcome or not feels like. For us, it was critical, you know, to feel that we were in a safe place

that we could make home. And it was absolutely a turnkey for my life, you know, in coming out of something that was so horrific and my dad was missing, you know, I didn't know where he was, I wasn't getting the answers, but I was in a safe space where I went to school and I loved my teacher and I loved my friends and I would eat Cheerios in the morning

and have my apple. It felt very normal then. And that's like childhood stuff. Did you go back to Connecticut? No, we didn't. We stayed in Washington, D.C. until my father joined us. He escaped. Yes, he escaped prison.

There's so many ways we've gone through. I know. From Ghana through Liberia. And even more interesting than that, one of his classmates at Westland, who is an American guy, white guy, lives in DC, was the one who actually engineered for him to get out and to come to the US. And he was the person we were staying with when my dad eventually came to the US and

joined us. So community is really important. Yes. Friends. Friends you can depend on. You know, the loyalty of long friendships. How you build friendships yourself how do you do it yeah yeah that's a complicated question yeah it's not an easy question for sure I like long friendships I really do I value really long deep friendships over time

you know and although I find that I make friends easily keeping close friends like my my circle my really you know personal circle is pretty small they're people that have been with me for a long time okay and still now yeah that's that's an important part of your makeup yeah is having intimate depth in common in relationships okay and then if we go back to get some of the narrative how do you get into like what are the high school years like yeah yeah like what what happened in those years okay so really quickly so dc to orange county california to nairobi kenya back to ghana when it was safe again and then at 12 to Colorado Springs, Colorado. What did you learn about all that travel? Like that, and that's your family deciding where you're

going to go. Yes, my family deciding, yeah. And you've got brother, you've got sisters. Yes. And so what was that like? Yeah, that was, I love the word reinvention again. You know, it was a lot of reinvention over and over and over. You know, the school yard where it's, you know, recess and you're trying to tell somebody how to pronounce your name. Or where did you come from? Or, you know, what do you like to eat? Or what are the games you like to play? And by the way, I can repeat the same thing I said at the last school or I could make it all up over again. Oh, come on.

You had that about you, that thought that i can reinvent myself absolutely yeah yeah i did that a few times what would you do things so i new favorite colors seriously yeah so you tried on a lot yeah yeah yeah and so it's one of the parts of you know the adolescent years is to figure out like who am i and so you were experimenting. Oh very much so and also I think going back to the friendships after about I would say like the third move I realized that one of the key things to getting into sort of the friendship circles was to determine a best friend on day one. You would decide? Oh yeah decide and determine and tell them about it. And they'd say, okay. You are now my best friend.

Okay. And they'd say, okay, we're doing that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I said, I make friends easily. But, you know, just deciding, you know, taking a look at the dynamics and saying that person is the one who is going to be my best friend. So there's something about intuition there? Yeah, so for sure. And then how would you

choose? What were you looking for as you're building your community? Yeah. Compassion. Someone who is open, curious. Definitely friendly and popular were criteria.

Because I need to get in. That's right. You got to get in. If you're going to get in, you got to go with the person who's already in. And are you more of an insider now or an outsider? Oh, that's a really, that's a tough question. Yeah. I think I still feel like an outsider.

You still feel like an outsider. Yeah. Outsider to what? To every environment. Work. Sometimes personal. Still an outsider, yeah. How do you use that? Hmm, gosh, that's a really tough one. I use it kind of like as a superpower in that I can feel invisible and feel like nobody is really paying attention to me. And so I can observe better.

My emotions are not as tied in because I'm not in. Wow. I would never, unless you answered that question that way, thought that you would think you're invisible. Really? No. I mean, look. And how tall are you? Yeah, almost six feet. you answered that question that way thought that you would think you're invisible really no i mean look you know right and how tall are you yeah almost six feet yeah like so you've got presence you've got big presence yeah but what i hear you saying is sometimes i feel like i don't quite fit in whatever the inner circle is right and so because of that i get to watch and i'm not as

overly attached to things so then you get to use different faculties to make decisions and to observe and learn. The invisibility is more about the expression of like my feelings or my opinions that I can keep those hidden because they don't know me. I'm the outsider and so if you don't know who I am and you don't know anything about really how I behave or my instincts or how I move, I can keep those cloaked for a long time. I love this part of the conversation because knowing your history of the companies you've been on, and I'd like for you to walk us through that. I now understand that you have had many moments of practice figuring out how to suss out the culture

from the times that you've moved throughout your life. So you come in mid-ninth grade. This was my experience. Mid-ninth grade, I was in a new high school. And I moved, I think, about four or five times, like midstream. So I had a little taste, not what you have. But I think I understand that you had lots of practice at figuring out rooms and ecosystems. Absolutely.

Okay, so if you could share how that works for you, maybe you can help unlock for many people how it is that they can feel more at ease more quickly in an environment that is new, sometimes perceived to be hostile. Yeah. The secret. Is that a secret? hostile. Yeah. The secret. Is that a secret? It is sort of a secret. Because I feel like most people come into a new environment

and start talking. They're loud. This is who I am. Here's what I've done. This is da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. They start talking immediately. I'm like, just shut up. Just shut up. Watch. Look around. Observe.

Be quiet. If somebody asks you a question, then you answer. Short little answers because you're still trying to figure out where the power lies or the dynamics or all those things. Shut up. Just chill out for a second. Figure it, and then you can start to engage. Are you an introvert? Yes. So this is easier for you than the extrovert. The extrovert is the one that's gathering energy from talking and being around people. Yeah, no, I'm very much a natural introvert.

Okay. So we've got some of these really unique superpowers that you know how to adjust to many environments, evidenced by your many powerful moves that you've had not moves powerful moments that you've had across large companies right now that are relevant to the zeitgeist of being modern yeah right and so and you've got this internal not control that's not it but you've got an internal way that you process to be able to observe better. Right. Okay. All right. Beautiful. So then, okay, tell us how you walk through the important moments in your career. What are some of those highlights?

Yeah. I think, again, because of my many moves in childhood and being a natural introvert, also practicing being quiet and observing, I take my own counsel very seriously. You know, that I'm not someone who bends to peer pressure very well or often. Not even my mother. She can't get over it? Okay. No, she can't convince me to do anything.

But, you know, it's part of the, yeah, I think it's the practice of having to be in an environment from childhood in which I had to assess and make decisions for myself. There was no one to ask, should I go here? Should I play with these people? Is this a good idea? Is that a good idea? There was no one to ask. I didn't yet trust anyone.

And so I found that I was able to practice essentially listening to myself, taking my own counsel, making the move and doing that. And so in my career, it's the same way. I rarely have asked anyone whether or not I should make a move to another company or to take another role or to quit. If you were to pull back that curtain and like what is the counsel? It's a conversation basically, right? I like how you put it like you take your counsel yeah and as a psychologist what i hear is you have purposeful conversations with yourself yes do you write do you meditate do you listen like do you how do you work that out oh gosh it, it's great. It's what's great? It's great. The questions.

Oh, the questions are great. Okay, good. Well, what my intuition is great. Yes, that too. That's good. Yeah, that's a strong point. Yeah, it is. There is a inner dialogue.

I don't write it down. I used to do the pro and con list. Yeah. I never found that to like, it never really made sense because for me tell me about for you like i'd write a pro but that had a value of like 200 and a con had like a value of 50. so i could get this list but like they were unbalanced they're unbalanced and quite frankly we know what we want to do we always know tell me more ah i love this well this is why i no longer leave the pro and con list okay because

I know what I want to do it's just that I'm writing this list so I can either convince myself that I shouldn't do it or convince myself that I should do it even when I the opposite is true and so okay so you're listening to your quote-unquote gut call it your intuition wherever that is like when I say you're listening to your intuition where gut. Call it your intuition, wherever that is. Like when I say you're listening to your intuition, where do you point? So you go down here. Some people will say here. No, so you're saying like intuitions down here. Yeah.

Okay. It makes you like feel sick or excited in here. Okay. Can we double click on that? Sure. Now when you feel, tell me a moment where you felt excited you could go to sick if you want but it's this the one i've um in korea right anywhere in life it doesn't much matter well i felt really excited when i met my husband

okay and then when you have that feeling right and it's here for you, what do you do with it? I try to ride that feeling wherever it's taking me. The ability to follow emotions and intuition and to be able to carry that experience. Sometimes we get to prickly, scratchy parts of inside of us, you know, when things are difficult. So we just talked about excitement. What about when things are hard to feel? What do you do in those experiences?

I mean, when I feel like ill and sick in my gut. Yeah. And it's mostly like fear, trepidation. I tried to ride that too, to be honest with you. It's much harder for me to do that because it doesn't feel good. And when you ride it, what does that mean? That means that I don't stop the action. I don't try to force stop the action of whatever

is happening. You know, if it's a difficult conversation or if I know that a situation is not working, I'm, you know, there are ways to like stop yourself from feeling the fear or that this is not right. You know, there's ways to say you trick yourself, you start talking to yourself and then no, no, no, it's fine. This thing is okay. And that's okay. See, it's fine.

But I try really hard not to do that and actually listen to whatever is telling me that this is not right. And just go as far as I can until I know for sure. Because I think sometimes that feeling of, this is not working, this is not good, I don't trust it all the way. And I need time. I need to be sure that it's a whole feeling.

Wow. Yeah, before I make the jump. I actually can't think of something more powerful to explore than that like like imagine a world where people were able to listen and have the courage to feel and to follow those feelings you know so if i jump ahead like what would you hope for humanity if people knew what you knew and understood what you have come to understand and have lived true experiences in, you know, like, what would you imagine humanity? What would you hope for humanity? Oh, man. I would really hope that people stopped pretending.

You know, just stop pretending that everything's okay. Stop pretending that you're perfect. Stop pretending that you like this thing when you don't. Stop pretending to be somebody else. Even that sometimes feels like, oh, but that's a good thing, right? Because there's this role model and that's what I want to do and that's what I'm going to emulate myself around. But that's a good thing, right? Because there's this role model, and that's what I want to do, and that's what I'm going to emulate myself around. But that's bad.

That's not real. So I wish that we could get to a place where all of us could stop pretending. And therefore, yeah, listen to the feelings, and listen to your intuition, and feel the feelings. And therefore, it's like, if I thought this was the right way, and I thought this was the right path, and therefore it's like if if this if i thought this was the right way and i thought this was the right path and it's not i can stop and say that's not that's actually not working for me instead of being like oh no it's fine it's fine it's fine and then keep going and

then you feel terrible and then you start taking it out on people and you start acting out in ways that are terrible for all of us. Terrible for you and terrible for me too because now I'm a recipient. Now the relationship is toxic, right? Because we're pretending. Yeah, because you're pretending. Okay, walk us through the beats of your career.

What are some of those? So it's probably started in the choices you made for college, you know, and then that path. But walk us through that path. Yeah, so I went to school, I went to undergrad at the same university that my dad got his PhD, Westland in Milton, Connecticut, where I was born. Well done.

He thought so too. I was pre-med and then I decided that that was actually not the thing. It was not feeling right. And I decided that I was gonna move to New York City after college and take a year before going to medical school to explore what else could be possible. And that's actually where my career began.

Bold move, right? To say, okay, the safe path is becoming an academician or academics is a safe path. And you said no. Yeah. Okay. Is there a moment in time where you knew it was wrong? Or was this something that was building for a while?

I don't know that I can identify a specific moment. It felt more like an avalanche. And then by the time I got to graduation, I was pretty certain that that's not what I wanted to do. But I couldn't articulate it. By the time you got to graduation, I was pretty certain that that's not what I wanted to do, but I couldn't articulate it. By the time you got to graduation? Graduation of undergrad. Oh, undergrad. Yeah. Knowing that I didn't want to be a doctor. Yeah, got it. Knowing I didn't want to continue 12 more years of academia. And so that move to New York and to explore was my way of trying to dispel either the fear of continuing on or understand if actually there was actually something else to do and what I

discovered was there was actually something else to do. Did you have a did you have a sense of what that was or did you know that the path that you're heading on wasn't right? I felt that there was just something else. Something else that could bring me more excitement. The path I was on was too predictable. And I felt like I knew what that was going to be. But there was something else. Because you're going to be in the same city for eight years.

Yeah. How could you possibly do that? I was like, you know, but I felt that there was something. I mean, I was always very drawn to the arts, to music and dance and film and fashion and all of these pursuits that were not in the science lab. You know, they didn't exist there. And I spent all of my time in undergrad,

you know, not in the lab doing those things and those brought me joy and so that's actually what I was trying to pursue what was the joyful thing and I didn't care if I couldn't make money or if I didn't know what the career was because at that point I had no idea that there could be a career I didn't know that marketing was a career I didn't know advertising was a career I didn't know that marketing was a career. I didn't know advertising was a career. I didn't know any of that. I just wanted to go and see what else was happening. And divine intervention, I feel like,

because I am a woman of faith, is that I came across Spike Lee, and I was his assistant. I ran into his office to answer phones because he fired his assistant. And that one day turned into four years of being there and watching him move in the world in a very loud way, you know, very direct way. He did not apologize for his opinions or who he was or his blackness or any of those things. And I found it really fascinating.

What were the movies he was building at that time that you're a part of? Yeah, it was so good. Bamboozle was the one that when I came into his life at that moment was the one he was working on. In fact, I marked up the script. He loves to tell that story now because he gave it to me to read. And you marked it up? Yeah.

I thought that's what he wanted me to do. I thought he wanted feedback. Turns out he didn't want feedback. Who knew? I didn't know that. I said he should be more specific. You know what I'm saying? Oh, god, that's awesome.

But it was that entry into all of those spaces, because he had started an advertising agency and so i was able to move into that world and then explored the clients that he was working with of course was like the new york mix you know he's a sports fan so basketball so i got sports checks then it was janet jackson he was doing he's filming her tour so music check obviously his own films check it was like i was I was in culture. And then it was New York City and I was 22 years old. I was out every night, different clubs and at the art shows

and making friends with people that my mother was afraid of. Okay, so you're living it up. Yes. Okay, go back. How did you get that job? What did you do to get that job? Well, yeah. Well, when I graduated from college and said I needed a year, You're living it up. Yes. Okay. Go back. Go back to how did you get that job? Like, what did you do to get that job? Yeah. Well, yeah.

Well, when I, when I graduated from college and said I needed a year, my parents said, okay, that's fine, but we're not paying for it. And I was like, okay, well then I got to go to, I've got to get a job. I don't know. We've got to get a temp job. So I signed up for a temp agency and every morning they would call me or I would call them rather because I didn't have a phone I would call them at the pay phone on the corner and I was sleeping on my friend's couch and I would call them and they would tell me where I was going to be that day and I did so many different

jobs oh my god for like four months I was someplace else almost every day. And then I landed at Spike's office one day. You and I actually have many parallels in the story that you're sharing. I dropped out of college. My parents at one point, I dropped out of my master's degree program. Didn't know what I was going to do. Eventually found my way back to science and academia.

But early days, my parents gave me that kind of thing like well if you're gonna go that path it was surfing you're gonna go that path yes right you're gonna have to move out and get a job and figure it out like yeah yeah so so I think I understand that kind of scrappy yeah self-reliance that you've had throughout your career yeah so what was the next natural step after Spike Lee so after spike I wanted to be official. I wanted to have, you know, the real metal around my neck that said I was an advertising executive.

So I got a job at Arnold Worldwide, which is one of the biggest agencies on Madison Avenue working on Glasso Smith Klein, a pharmaceutical client. And I felt like now that will give me legitimacy because I'd been working on music and fashion and people thought that was like frou-frou and you had no brain in order to do that. But Pharma, you need to be smart. The scientist. Right. I lasted three months in that job.

Wasn't the right fit. It was terrible. It was awful. It was awful. It was terrible. So I quit that and went back to Spike where the real magic happened because it was at the time when he had just won the Pepsi-Cola business and they were looking for the next big music star or spokesperson and he went around the office and asked you know who everybody thought that person

was like have you seen anybody that was interesting and the time, I saw Beyonce in MTV's remake of Carmen. They called it the hip hopera. And it was her and Mekhi Pfeiffer, and they basically rapped Carmen. It was critically panned, but I thought it was brilliant. I just thought it was miraculous. Beyonce played Carmen and she was spectacular. So you're the reason that she got the Pepsi deal?

Pretty much. Come on. Seriously? From a bad acting experience or whatever? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Spike said, who do you think is interesting? And I was like, Beyonce. She just did this Carmen on MTV.

And he was like, what? What are you talking about? And I was like, no, you should watch it. You should watch it. You should look at it. He'll tell you the same. Yeah, it's true. And so then he saw it.

And in fact, we just reprised Carmen in a Pepsi commercial. Come on. Yeah, 2003. Okay. After that, wonderful. After that, what happened? After that, I was essentially poached by Pepsi to come into their marketing organization,

which was very, it was terrifying because all of the marketers, and still it's very much that way, Pepsi to come into their marketing organization, which was very, it was terrifying because all of the marketers, and still it's very much that way, at those types of big companies, you know, Pepsi, Unilever, Kraft, like those companies only accept marketers through their MBA program. And MBA to internship, internship to the job. And I did not have an MBA. I'd never associated with those type

of people. And so I thought, you know, this is going to be, this is going to be tough. Like, I don't know if I'll be accepted in here, but I was really intrigued by the job. What did the conference table look like? Who was at the conference table? Oh man. It didn't look like me. I'll tell you that. I had a nose ring at the time, a short pixie cut like Halle Berry because I was cute. And yeah, I wasn't wearing the khakis and the blue button-down shirt, for sure. How did you do that? Like, how did you walk into the room and, well, let me not presuppose. Yeah.

Were you authentically you or were you part of that pretending thing? Not at first. At first, I was pretending. Pretending to be what? To be them. To be them. Yeah. To be as smart as them, to be as educated as them, to be what they thought success should look like. But I quickly found out that it didn't matter what I wore or the words I said, that I was always different. Again, I was always the outsider. And then what was that narrative? How did you come to understand your deep value

in those rooms and other rooms? How did that happen for you? Oh, man, that was the sweetest part. And it still is what I find to be my absolute joy in rooms like that, which is that I know things they don't. And they thought they were really smart, and they didn't know anything about the world, how it ticks, you know, what makes culture pop.

They didn't know it. They were looking for it in books and in graphs. They weren't in the street. They weren't connecting with artists. They weren't listening to the right music or watching the right films. They would be too scared. How did you come? That's the real value, like, right, that you understand something. Yeah. So it's easy to see on paper how you learned. You were in many different cultures.

You understood lots of different environments, how to fit in. And then you're in really cool places, right? Okay. Yeah. More importantly to me is how did you come to learn that what you have possessed and internally what you've come to understand has value because that that's not an easy yeah leap yeah yeah and you're right in that at first that knowledge was not praise it wasn't like i was around the conference room table and you know we're saying okay what's the strategy for Pepsi this quarter and I was like well you know who's the hottest artist right now that was not that's not what they're looking for no yeah and they didn't bring you in because no no and so I had to find my way into that conversation using their tools. And so understanding the data really well and saying, okay, yes, point taken.

This case is going to move really quickly because of X, Y, and Z metrics and because of the environment it's in. But the thing that's really going to make it jump across the aisle from that Coke over there that's doing the same thing is because we have this person as a part of our narrative. And she is to do this you don't know it yet but i talked to her and she's going to do this thing which is going to make her really popular and that's how then i was able to bridge

that gap really cool yeah okay so from there from the ad agency world to yes to pepsi uh I was at Pepsi for about four and a half years and then everyone said I was a great fashionista and I got an opportunity to lead a marketing organization for a small fashion brand called Ashley Stewart so I jumped ship and went there and lasted a year. They fired me or I quit I don't know I mean depends on your perspective. I'm not quite sure. That didn't work out and it was it was actually another inflection point my daughter my daughter was gosh I think she was just about one just over one when I got fired were you the primary breadwinner yeah or was a dual income family but I was definitely making more money and can we and I got fired. Were you the primary breadwinner? Yeah.

Or was it dual income family? Dual income family, but I was definitely making more money. Can we pause here for a minute and talk about how, I don't know what it's like to be a woman, okay? And I don't know what it's like to be a mother, of course. And I watch my wife, my mother, the mother of my child, and it's a completely different reorganization of one's life when a child is born. So I continued to carry on in my career and it fundamentally

changed everything about her lifestyle. So can you teach or help me understand what it was like to be you and working and taking risks yeah and not fitting in and being a mother right well there are a few other layers yeah Liel Liel is my second daughter okay my first daughter was born at 27 weeks and she did not survive and she was born a little less than a year before Leyal was born. So I was also dealing with a lot of grief and anger. And then sometimes what felt like a paralyzing control, you know, need to make sure that Lael was safe and okay and alive, which meant that I had some mistrust of my child care providers, which also meant that when I was at the office, I was very much focused on what was happening at home. And so it made me somewhat ineffective.

So let's say you got fired. It makes sense, right? Like you weren't grounded. You were for obvious and good reasons. Yeah. How do you work through the grief of a child? I don't know that you, I don't know. I don't know that you ever work through it yeah all the fact that you brought it up is important yeah you know it's a very important part of your life and I don't know the right way to ask the question because of the sensitivities of it but what have you come to understand from one of the most tragic experiences in life? Yeah. That it's okay that it doesn't leave. I think sometimes we work so hard to put things behind us, to get over it, move on, whatever the phrase is.

But that you don't actually have to do that in order to live a happy and complete life you know that that it can still sit here that again it's you know eve and my experiences with her are still here in this space and that that's okay that i'm i'm still okay even though i carry that as a part of my journey. And that I have figured out how to essentially live life with that. And not be paralyzed. You know what's refreshing for me about the gravity of what you're and how you're explaining this is that

you're not trying to be happy. I would never guess, now knowing you this way, that your pursuit in life is to be happy, right? And I hear that from people, like, what do you want in life? And they say, I just want to be happy. And I think, like, that doesn't make sense to me. I want to be animated, alive.

I want to feel the human experience. What is it that you're searching for? Oh man. Gosh, that's a really tough question. Because sometimes I feel like it changes, you know? Right now in this moment, I want to feel life. I want to feel it. I want to feel the highs. I want to feel it. I want to feel the highs.

I want to feel the lows, too, by the way. I'm not afraid of those. I want to enjoy it. The fullness of it. I want to be unencumbered. How do you get yourself free? Freedom! How do you get yourself to be able to do that? Yeah.

It is practice. It's practice. It's a practice of cutting the cord when people tell you not to. And landing on your feet and trusting that that will happen again. What would be your level of self-trust? Oh, man. It's pretty high. It's pretty high.

It's pretty high. And then for folks that struggle with self-trust, like what would you, how would you nudge them? How would you support them to develop more trust? And first maybe, do you think that self-trust is important? Yes. Okay. Oh my gosh, I think it's critical.

Yeah. I think it's critical. At the foundation. Foundational. Yeah, for me, before you answer the question, for me it's like, I have a sense that I trust that I'll be able to figure out whatever is gonna to happen. It doesn't mean it's going to be easy and I'm not going to have the answers, but I'm going to figure it out somehow.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So how would you encourage others that are listening to you going, oh my gosh, she's done this and this. And then we haven't gotten to like Apple and Beats and, you know then we haven't gotten to like apple and beets and you know we haven't gotten to the other parts of your career that are ridiculous so how would you how would you nudge people to develop more trust start small you know you don't have to jump off the roof on the first go jump off the first step whatever that step whatever that step is yeah maybe you chose your own lunch that day or maybe you decided where to go for dinner. Whatever the thing, and that choice was the right choice. You've met people who, they're like, whatever you want to do.

Because they're afraid that if I choose this restaurant and it sucks, then you're going to be upset with me. Even that, even that little thing where it's just like, so if it sucks, so what? We'll go to the next place. Or we just eat bad food and we'll laugh about it later. You know, it's like that kind of thing, where it's a practice of the small things, trusting your own instinct, trusting your decisions, saying the thing that you want, the thing you actually want, saying it.

You know, trying those small things first and knowing that you'll be all right after doing those things allows you then to do the big things the big jumps I feel like we could stop it's so good like that like yes yeah yes right like so this is you being an agent in your life saying okay I'm going to take some responsibility for my choices yes and then live with those consequences good bad whatever they might be yes yes yes yes do you have a way to get more clear about what you want? Do you have a practice?

It comes to me in multiple ways. Now, I try to listen to whatever that first feeling is. I feel like it's usually the right one. Before, that first feeling would come, then it would be buried by all the logic or the circumstances or the rationale, and then I'd have to go uncover that. You know, lift all the things up and like, but do I really want that? I don't think I really do. I don't know. You know, you're like searching for it, lifting up, lifting up. While if you listen to it in the first place, you wouldn't have to do all the work of lifting it out so i hear two things being aware being connected and then having the courage to

follow up yes forward you know and that courage so the awareness piece is i don't know it's like ground zero if you're not aware you're in trouble and for me like i need to do things like mindfulness is really important mindfulness training um nutrition is really important you know making sure that i don't have distractions in my body so i you know i spend time uh with self-care that way what do you do for self-care oh well i started working out a year ago just started yeah literally just started i ran track in high school and college and then i quit for like 22 years and i just picked it up again this shit was hard it really is hard it's terrible yeah This shit was hard. It was terrible. It really is hard.

It's terrible. I just burnt out. And I was like, treadmill, no! Walking? I don't think so. It'd been a few years of tragedy and work environments that were taking a lot out of my spirit.

Oh, okay, hold on. You know I'm not not going to let that slip. Like what does that, okay. So we go to self-care to tragedy. Okay. So you, to the spirit. Yes. Yes. Yeah. But that's where the self-care. Okay. So you're going through hard times. Yeah. I'm going through hard times. And I said, I don't want to be in these hard times. And the hard times are not just external. You know, hard times. And the hard times are not just external. Usually the hard times are not just external. There's something internal. There's something going on inside that is causing you to accept the external.

And that's what I was doing. Absolutely. And I was like, oh, I see. I keep repeating this thing. It's me. It's actually me. So I was like, okay, let's just, you know, let's work out this body. Because I was feeling weak and not, just not at my full capacity.

And that was a real physical thing. But it showed up, obviously, outside. I was running in between planes for work and you know pulling long hours worrying not sleeping enough and I needed to change all of that in order to be clear and so yeah I've got my body in shape which forced me to have to sleep because you can't really work out if you're not sleeping and it's like that doesn't work I had to eat better in order to see the results of the workouts putting in in the gym it's amazing how that stuff all those are the three that work together yeah so how did you how did you let go because I don't know

like busyness is a thing right and it's like I don't know it's something that people are really struggling with so how did you cut back to afford yourself more time to be a mom, to be a wife, to be a business person? And I'm not saying these in any order. And then also be fit. How did you do that? I think part of it was the decision. Literally, it was August 1st. I love that.

Okay. August 1st, 2018, I looked at my life and said, I don't like it. I didn't like the way I looked. I didn't like the way I looked. I didn't like the way I felt. I didn't like the way I was moving in the world. I wasn't home enough. I wasn't present enough. My friends were kind of like on text message but didn't know anything in depth about what I was doing or what was going on in my life.

I just didn't like my life. And I was like, I've got to fix it, you know? And I think for me, it started with my body because it was the thing I could see and identify, you know? And then getting my fitness into check allowed me to get my nutrition into check, which allowed me to get my sleep into check, which meant that like, if I need to do all of those things, I need to set different boundaries for work and what I was ready to do. You know, I felt that I was spending too much time away from home. And so then I decided, okay, well, if I need to travel for the job, which is, which I do, I need to be in a lot of places, it's a global job. I don't want to spend more than three nights away from the job. And if I have to do that, I need to bring my kid with me. That was a decision which meant that I need to talk to the school.

I need to talk to my mother who helps me with my daughter. You know, I need to figure out financially how I'm going to do that because work won't pay for it. So, you know, having to figure out all those things, I started putting boundaries around the things that I would accept. I stopped saying yes all the time to everything that was asked of me. And that for me became and is still part of my self-care. You know, evaluating my schedule. When I'm at home, I want to take my daughter to school. I want to drive her to school when I'm here in Los Angeles.

That means that I have to say no to early morning conference calls. And I do that because the rest of my day feels so much better when I've spent that 30 minutes in the car with her. I did that this morning. You know, it's miraculous the things you'll find out about the fifth grade when you're in the car. On the way to fifth grade.

Right, yeah. You know? Okay, so when you are making and setting boundaries, right, on how to make decisions, it's not, I don't know if it's necessarily boundaries for you, or it is you're doing things based on principles. Like the principle is I want to spend time with my child, or I want to spend time here. I want to invest there. What are some of the core principles that you're working? Yeah, yeah. Those fluctuate also.

Right now, I really want to be present for my daughter. And that means that I'm making decisions about work and travel and career around her. In the past, I have wanted to be the role model whatever that meant yeah what does that mean yeah that's you wanted to show her

or show somebody do you have a chip on your shoulder a little bit where did that come from the general societal belief that black women like me can't be in the c-suite or be executives or be smart come on so you gotta have a chip i do yeah i love a chip like there's like there's a competitive kind of thing like i'm gonna get after it and it will for a while it works

really well at some point the chip can become a log, right? It becomes like... It becomes heavy. It becomes really heavy, you know, because do we really need to continue to prove? And I'm not saying that this is for me to try to sort out, because I had some of that as well. Not your same chip, a different chip. And do you still have a chip? I think so, yeah. It's amazing to me because you have had C-suite massive experiences across massive brands.

Yeah. So will you list them for me? The chips? No, not the chips. Because there's not one. The positions. Yes, the positions. Oh yeah. Okay. So Spike Lee, Pepsi Cola, Beats by Dre, Apple, Uber, and now Endeavor.

Okay. So really quickly, what'd you learn from Beats by Dre? What'd you learn in that company? Actually, kind of similar to Spike in that, I mean, Jimmy Iovine and Dr. Dre are maybe the most unlikely tech innovators, but they showed up like themselves in Cupertino. Authenticity. Oh, yeah. So you like themselves in Cupertino. Authenticity. Oh yeah. So you helped bridge Beats and Apple together.

That was part of your- Yes, that's part of the job. Recreating essentially what iTunes could be in the future off of intuition and understanding about music culture within hip hop. Those brands are all cool brands. Those brands are all cool brands. Yeah. Yeah.

Those are all very cool brands. And tech is a big part of it for you. Tell me about how you interface with tech. Like what is your intuition saying about tech? How are you using it? What are you excited about? Yeah. Well, tech is it.

You know, it's what we are doing right now. It is what is driving almost every culture. There's not one business that cannot intersect with tech. And therefore, I felt that I needed to be at the center of it, you know, in Silicon Valley, in the place, this comes to the chip, in the place where I'm not expected to be. That's right. At the highest levels, driving the initiatives, driving the strategy, driving the communication,

making sure that I'm included in the conversation and I as the royal I, the royal we. The we are a part of the conversation because it felt that especially people of color, for sure, black women were getting so left behind. All you heard was about the white boys in the sweats driving all of the tech. Where am I in the conversation? I wear stilettos and red, sometimes leather. Yeah. You know, and if I'm not there at the table,

who's speaking for me? Okay. Getting the picture, seeing the picture, you got it. And then there's something special about you that says, I want to go in there. And I believe that I can add to that or contribute in some way. Is it as simple as because of all of the moving around that you've had and the experiences in early life that that led you to say, I could probably move in there too and figure out who's cool and be part of it and make a difference. Is it that simple? Somewhat. I could probably move in there too and figure out who is cool and be part of it and make a difference. Is it that simple? Uh, somewhat.

And then also the testing of my ability and knowing that I'm actually smart enough, capable enough to do the actual job. So it's not just the, you know, veneer of who I am and knowing that like, oh, of course I can get into that space and make friends and figure out who's popular and join their forces but that I can actually contribute something that they don't know and that me being there will make whatever they're doing better and having full understanding of that and full confidence in that even if I don't know the space i love it so you've been to some cultures that are very unique and different where you weren't quite sure like hey how come i'm not in the conversation you get in the conversation you make a dent in an impact in that culture

and now you're at wme and you're creating part of a culture there okay can what have you taken from all of your life experiences to shape culture now? Oh gosh. Well, first of all, it's like a big toy chest, you know? Endeavor touches so many things. Sports, film, fashion, tech, digital. Gosh, so many things. Things we haven't yet uncovered that we're still uncovering. You are doing it. I mean, yeah. And all of my experiences over the course of my career have given me all of those tools to be able to move in each of those spaces really well.

And so now it's like I can enter a conversation about Miss Universe and feel as confident talking about why women's empowerment is at the center of that organization and that platform and how we can evolve it to make it that much more impactful to the world. And I can be in the next room strategizing about The Rock. And then I can go into the next conversation and talk about professional bull riding, which is based in Colorado, by the way. Look at that. You've had time there, too. Precisely.

And then when you're hiring and you're managing your team, how do you go through those processes? What are those rhythms? Well, a lot of delegation. I mean, it's part of what I feel like my leadership trait is, is that I delegate a lot. I trust the people who are on my teams to do their job, which it frees me to do the other things I wanna do. The vision setting, the discovery,

really uncovering what else is going on in culture, that I allow people to do their jobs, and so therefore I don't meddle too much in the day-to-day work of what they do and also wanting them to bring their full selves to the office. I do that. Sometimes it's oversharing. What does that mean? Meaning that I talk about things that are going on in my life. I don't leave them at the door. I don't believe in that. So you have a cross blend between home life and business life. It's not like you're two different people in two different rooms.

No. You bring yourself into each room. That's right. So you are organizing your work life and your culture to say, hey, listen, we're in it together. We're spending a lot of time together. What are the other things that are going on? Like I said, one of my priorities right now is my daughter and her being active in my life and me being active in hers. And therefore it means that almost everyone who I work with directly at the office has met my daughter in person because she's with me. She comes to the office or she comes on a trip. It's not a surprise. There's one agent at WME who has maybe 20 selfies with her

at different events around the world. You know, because he's like, oh my God, here she is again. Well, yeah, she's really important in my life. And I've got to make sure that we are connected and I'm not leaving her behind. So for me, it's part of this concept of even developing the ideas that are going to work for someone like me.

I believe in the focus group of one, you know, that if it works for me, that it will work for somebody else. And so what are the concepts that we're developing? What is the culture we're creating for someone like me, who is a single mom, who's a widow, who likes fashion, who also listens to hip hop, who knows Garth Brooks songs as well, by the way, who now is in love with bull riders.

You've been through it. You've been through it. And you slipped in something important that you lost another loved one. And so, you know, to honor that is important. And I would love to ask the same question as before, which is how can you help others understand what it's like for the grieving process of intimacy? Yeah. I mean, because every relationship is so different,

I find it hard to, I don't wanna say prescribe, because that's not what I'm trying to do at all, and I know that's not the question. There was such a shock to me that that was possible. Maybe that sounds silly, but it was truly a shock. Because this was in his 40s? Yes, yes. He died four days before his 44th birthday and in some ways I'm

counting to that date too I'll be 43 in January I'm already anticipating that the clock is gonna start ticking for me maybe it's already ticking let's take it right but you know consciously because you had that trauma in your life at 44 that yeah I'm just like I. Because you had that trauma in your life at 44 that. Yeah. I'm just like, I want to get past that date. I really do. You know, I want to get past that date and feel like, okay.

But that's part of the grief. Like, I'm aware of that. And I know that I am working through some of that fear and some of that anxiety and anticipation of this marked time where I'm like, okay, he only lived until that time. I want to live beyond that time. And if I get there, I don't know what happens. I don't know what happens at the other side of that. But this idea that, you know, I haven't yet done everything that I want to do makes me feel very urgent. Makes me feel like I want to get things done. Not in any kind of morbid way, but that I just want to get things done.

I don't want to waste any time. Sometimes I think about the fact that he didn't go to all the places in the world he wanted to go. Didn't eat some of the foods that he always talked about eating. Simple things like that. You know, I want to do all of that stuff. In fact, my daughter and I were having a conversation the other day, and we discovered that when

she turns 18, I will turn 50 in that year. And so we started talking about what we're going to do. What's our birthday party going to look like? Oh, wow. Wow, yeah. My birthday's in January, as I said. Hers is in May. And so we started, okay, what are we going to do? She was like, well, you know, we both want to go to Fiji,

so we should just wait and do that. And then the second, I was just like, nah, I don't think we should wait for that. Let's go tomorrow. Let's just do that. Next summer, what are we doing next summer? Like, let's put that in the plan. You know, and I was like, you know what?

Let's actually, let's not worry about that. You know, we're going to get there when we get there i realized that in my grief and in the thoughts about losing peter at a time when it seemed impossible i mean life was so vibrant we were both on a rocket ship you know moving in the world it just seemed inconceivable that he wouldn't be here. And sometimes I still have a hard time believing that that happened or that he's not around. I don't even understand how that's possible. We've talked about two traumatic experiences.

Would you call them trauma with a big T or trauma with a small T when you think of worldwide traumas? Like how do you, and there's no right and wrong answer, you know, and it certainly isn't a diminish of the loss that you've had by saying small t. Yeah, yeah. You know, but how do you think about those two? Yeah, I think of them as big t's. Big t's.

Yeah. Yeah, they fundamentally reorganize the way that you live. Absolutely. Yeah. Changed everything. Do you think that many people feel trauma? Yes. Yeah, I think that most people have one of those two. Yeah. And we don't talk about it. No. We don't talk about how to work through it. And there's, you know, like there are resources for people, but they're

sometimes hard to access and, you know, and so what I hear you saying about working through trauma is that you're present with it. There's still some anxiousness around it. You're still in it right now. Still in it. Yeah. And what do you imagine the future to look like for you? Because this is one of the things that trauma does is it chases away the future by trying to survive now. Right.

Right, right, right. Yeah. When you think about the future maybe of your business venture, being a CMO at Endeavor, maybe there or maybe outside of it. How do you think about your future? Oh, man. My vision is. Yeah. My vision is so big.

There's so many other things that I also want to do. or feel like I can't achieve them, even in the midst of anxiety about the future and the days, you know, that I'm still so excited about it. I have big, big plans about what I want to do and what I want to achieve and what my retirement party looks like and what, you know, my 99th birthday party looks like. 99? Yeah.

99 is going to... Man, listen, I feel like that's the big one. Why are people waiting for 100? I'm like, do 99. It's such a great year. So when we go forward like that, what would you share, whatever age your younger self, you pick the age, what would you want to share, knowing what you know now? And it's an overused mechanism, the question I'm asking um to try to tease out insight yeah right but i'm actually curious what age that you would want to speak to as your younger self the insights and wisdoms you have now what age would

you want to speak to probably 12. 12 and then what was happening when you were 12. i moved to calder springs okay and then what would you want to share with that 12-year-old? I remember looking at myself in the mirror at 12. Maybe I was almost 13, probably. And wondering why people didn't see how dope I was. No, I'm serious. I'm serious. I'm serious. I believe you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was really trying to figure it out. I was like... Because you felt. I felt it. I felt I'm serious. I'm serious. I'm serious. I believe you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was really trying to figure it out.

I was like... Because you felt. I felt it. I felt I was beautiful. I felt I was like really smart, really fun. I could not understand why other people didn't see it. What did they see? What did you think they saw?

Yeah, I think they saw everything but those things. How did you come to learn that you were smart, beautiful, intelligent? I said those twice. Like, how did you come to learn that? Yeah. I mean. It's evident, isn't it? No one had to tell me.

Is it not obvious? Come on. That's great. Yeah. No, but I think, yeah, through my experiences, you know, through essentially part of the chip, you know, improving again, again, and again. Sometimes to other people, sometimes to myself, that those things were actually real and true. Was mom, dad, and sisters, were they saying that to you? Oh, yeah.

You're amazing, you're amazing, you're amazing. So you had people that were championing you. Yeah. And you also, when you looked, it made sense. Yeah. And then other people yeah then the next ring outside didn't see it didn't see that and the world didn't didn't acknowledge my inner dialogue or the affirmations that my family were giving me i don't think that that's

uncommon i think that that's a common experience for people is that the cocoon for many people is safe. For some people, it's not. Their parents are disasters. It's an awful environment to flourish and they still figure it out, which is extraordinary. But you had a cocoon that was amazing. And we've run into this trap with children right now that we've told them that they're special when they haven't done anything to be special. And so we've seen that. And then they think that they are special but they haven't earned it yet and there's a big movement like to give every kid a ribbon and so we see some of those effects yeah i'm not saying that you had it but we know now that when we give feedback to

children we should give it based on merit what What they've done to actually, not on intelligence, not on beauty, give it on the thing that you've actually done to, that precedes the output. But what would you have said to her, the 12 year old? What was the insight? That they will find out. Awesome. What do you think about the word disruption?

I love it. And what is it that you're disrupting? Everything. Everything. It is. Every space, every conversation. I am also the friend that asks the hard questions. So even in my friendships, I'm disrupting, challenging. And so disruptor, to me anyway, the way I feel about the word is that I'm actually just challenging whatever the status quo is, whatever is expected. Just challenging that thought. Maybe the standard is good. Maybe

that's the way it's supposed to be, but maybe it's not. So can we just push against that a little bit and expand? So that's, yeah, I like to do that. Nice work. Okay, so early days informed much of your life. And a lot of those experiences that you had were not by choice. And so I would imagine that your experience is that you had to figure things out. There was environments and circumstances and people in your life that were doing their very best to take care of you. And you had a loving family and there was disruption early days in the rhythm of your life. And you came to understand how to fit in, but you don't always fit in, right? And you didn't. And that magical experience at an early age by survival has led to this massive success early. I don't think there's many parents that would say, we should move 12 times. We should go all over the planet. Not many people do that. They think very opposite, which is, let's have this very sturdy environment. Well, yours was not sturdy.

And that became a massive catalyst and accelerant for you to figure out who you are. And so I understand you in a way that you have a tenderness to you. You have an availability to you. You have an innocence that's in there. And then you also have this other side, which is this powerful chip, right? Where you're going to show that you have some understanding

and that understanding that you have is at the center of your strength. And it's your faith that provides that, your experiences that provide that, and your knowing that you know how to listen to your intuition, match it to your thinking patterns, and then match it to your behaviors. And when you get all three of those in line, you are disrupting based on authentic power. And you had a whole lifetime of being able to do that. And so that is the gift that you've given me.

Wow. That's good. Thank you. Yeah, that's great. I mean, it's close. You know, I'm a little scared. It's good. It's great. Let's not go any further. That's good. Awesome. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us.

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