Finding Mastery with Dr. Michael Gervais - DeMar DeRozan and Kevin Love, NBA Stars on Mental Health

Episode Date: August 7, 2019

This week’s conversation is with NBA stars DeMar DeRozan and Kevin Love and it’s unique.It comes from a live panel we did at Aspen Ideas Festival a few weeks back.Presented by the Aspen Institute in partnership with The Atlantic, the Aspen Ideas Festival is the nation’s premier, public gathering place for leaders from around the globe and across many disciplines to present and discuss the ideas and issues that both shape our lives and challenge our times.I was invited to host a panel on mental health in sports.Earlier this year, Kevin Love of the Cleveland Cavaliers and DeMar DeRozan of the San Antonio Spurs, each publicly discussed their challenges with mental and emotional well-being.Their honesty started a national conversation about breaking through the stigma and fear of openly discussing mental health issues in professional sports.In this very personal conversation, the superstar athletes share their experiences with anxiety, depression, and loneliness.What they reveal about mental health actually reveals much about their mental strength.I hope this is only the beginning of an era where athletes and for that matter anyone – across any walk of life – has the courage to be vulnerable and have those difficult conversations._________________Subscribe to our Youtube Channel for more powerful conversations at the intersection of high performance, leadership, and meaning: https://www.youtube.com/c/FindingMasteryGet exclusive discounts and support our amazing sponsors! Go to: https://findingmastery.com/sponsors/Subscribe to the Finding Mastery newsletter for weekly high performance insights: https://www.findingmastery.com/newsletter Download Dr. Mike's Morning Mindset Routine! https://www.findingmastery.com/morningmindsetFollow us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and X.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And as I mentioned earlier, at some capacity, whether it's you or somebody you know, or somebody that, you know, you run close to in your circle is going to be dealing with this it might be suffering silently so i mean it's just not being afraid to have having those conversations all right welcome back or welcome to the finding Mastery podcast. I'm Michael Gervais.

And by trade and training, I'm a sport and performance psychologist, as well as the co-founder of Compete to Create. And the whole idea behind these conversations, behind this podcast, is to learn from people who are on the path of mastery. And it's not just to learn from them, but it's to apply those own learnings in our life. And what we're doing is trying to demystify how do they organize their inner life? How do they organize their thoughts that lead to thought patterns? And how do they take actions that are lined up with their mission

of their craft, as well as their philosophies in life? And then underneath that, we want to see if we can understand the mental skills that they use to build and refine their craft. Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Sales Solutions. In any high-performing environment that I've been part of, from elite teams to executive boardrooms, one thing holds true. Meaningful relationships are at the center of sustained success. And building those relationships, it takes more than effort. It takes a real caring about your people.

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And I love that David is making that easier. So if you're trying to hit your daily protein goals with something seamless, I'd love for you to go check them out. Get a free variety pack, a $25 value, and 10% off for life when you head to davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. That's Davidprotein.com slash finding mastery. Now this week's conversation is with NBA stars, DeMar DeRozan and Kevin Love, and it's totally unique. It comes from a live panel we did at the Aspen Ideas Festival. And if you're not familiar with them, the Aspen Institute, in partnership with the Atlantic, has created the Aspen Ideas Festival. And it's the nation's premier public gathering place for leaders from around the globe and across many disciplines

to present and discuss the ideas and issues that are shaping our lives and challenging ourselves in these modern times. And I was invited to host a panel on mental health in sports. And so earlier this year, as many of you would recognize, Kevin Love of the Cleveland Cavaliers and DeMar DeRozan of the San Antonio Spurs both publicly discussed their challenges with mental and emotional well-being. And it was a game changer. I mean, it was really incredible the way they did it, the fact that they did it. And it created a, I don't know, a shift in people's awareness of, you know, how important the inner part of life is for flourishing. And their honesty started this national conversation

about breaking through the stigma and the fear of openly discussing mental health issues in professional sports. So much so that two of the leagues, NBA and NFL, both have this mandate that mental health professionals need to be part of the ecosystem of teams. It's incredible. And so it's not directly related to this, but it is certainly a movement that's happening. They are the beacons for talking about it. And in this very personal conversation that we had in front of an audience, these absolute

flat out superstar athletes share their experiences with anxiety, depression, and loneliness. And what they reveal about mental health actually reveals much about their mental strength. And I hope this is only the beginning of an era where athletes, and for that matter, all of us across any walk of life, that we have the courage to be vulnerable and to have those difficult conversations about how we're actually doing and when we feel like it's not up to us alone to solve our own problems. Nobody does this alone. Let's be honest.

Nobody does it alone. So with that, with all of the excitement that you can possibly have about this conversation, I can't wait to introduce you to how they think and what they're doing with their lives. And so with that, let's jump right into this conversation with Marta Rosen and Kevin Love. I am incredibly excited to have this conversation with the two of you and the rest of us in the room about what I think matters more than just about everything else in life, which is the quality of your inner life. And without the quality of inner life, the experiences that we go through become compromised. And so today is really a deconstruction

about the myth between the strongest men and women in the world, those that achieve and experience the heights of human potential, and how the rest of us see them, and at the same time, how they experience life, which is no different than us. And so I'm fortunate enough to be on this esteemed panel with two of the best basketball players in the world, and they need no introduction.

This is an interesting panel as well, because Damar is from USC and Kevin is from UCLA. So we've got some other tensions involved here as well. Yeah. So before, how many Trojans do we have in the house? This is outnumbered. That's all we need, he says. That's good. UCLA? Okay, good. Okay, all right. So before private school, yeah, private school, yes, yes. Okay, so before we jump in and to really understand their perspective on mental health and humanity and elite human performance, I want to set the tone for just a moment, and then I hope to get

out of the way and to allow them to express what matters to them and how they understand themselves and other humans in the world. So let's do this for a second. We're going to talk about depression, and depression is, it is a serious condition, and as a psychologist, I want to give you a couple gems to wrap your head around. Depression and anxiety are kind of the opposite sides of the same coin. They are mood disorders. There's a struggle with the way we think and the way we feel relative to how we think we should and feel. And so there is a list of characteristics to qualify for depression. And that cluster is important to understand. So this isn't like a bad mood. This is not like, I feel sad today. You need to have two weeks where you're struggling. And there's nine criteria. You

need five of those nine criteria. Here's a few of disruption of sleep well I think most of us have that would you say that okay so disruption of sleep is one you need to have a sense of depressed mood there's an agitation and internal scratchiness that comes with depression and anxiety there's a weight loss issue that happens even though we eat about the same. It's weight loss or weight gain. There is a compromise in how we organize our inner life. We consider and plot in some ways about suicide, and we really don't feel connected. It's a bit of a malaise where we feel like we're walking through quicksand. Those are the clinical symptoms of depression. You need five of those nine.

Everyone in this room has felt some of those. Now, how many of you in this room, before we set the table here, have experienced two weeks or more, five of those? You've really wrestled with depression and or anxiety. How many of you have struggled at some point in your life? There we go. Welcome home.

That's right. Okay. The second is, how many of you know somebody that has struggled with depression and or anxiety? That's the world. You know somebody that's been afflicted with this condition if you haven't wrestled with it yourself. This is a global condition. Over

300 million people suffer, and I say suffer, I mean that, suffer from feeling isolated and lonely and depressed. 300 million people. The best estimate from the World Health Organization is that this is a $1 trillion cost to our economy globally. That's a real deal. Okay, so last thing is that two of the most extraordinary athletes in the NBA, it's a global sport at this point, have raised their hand to demystify, to destigmatize what mental health is about. When we look at you, we see you as the strongest. We see you as being impenetrable, as having it all together.

You're paid well, you're handsome, you're athletic. I did say that. They are handsome, aren't they? You're athletic. You've got everything that people think they want. And at the same time, you said, wait a minute, I have a struggle that I need to not keep private. And what happens for them is that every day they practice vulnerability. Do you feel nervous at some level before games?

Games? Yes. Not games. Not games. Where do you feel nervous in your life society what does that mean to you mean meaning i know pretty sure for us basketball basketball has always been our escape for us to suppress everything we we we feel when we are when we're alone um i know for me when i'm out you, that's when your anxiety kick in, you know, you're not sure how to process everything that's going on, you know, you feel so out of control of things, so many emotions run through you, anger, frustration, sadness, whatever it may be, you know,

because when we in that moment, we don't feel comfortable like we do when we're in a tough moment playing a game that we love playing. Because you know the skills of your craft. You understand the mechanics. They feel at home. And when you're out in other environments that trigger something that feels unsettling,

that is something for you. Is that the same for you as well? Yeah. And it doesn't have to be, right? No, it is very similar for me. I think basketball, for both of us, we were talking about it last night, we've talked about it at length before,

that it's always been a safe place for us. So, you know, it's when we step away from the floor and we lose some sort of that control. And also we feel very isolated. I think it's, like you said, we are looked at as superheroes and in a lot of ways indestructible. And there's that feeling of invincibility,

like when you're a little kid. But there are so many layers to the human being. People forget, I think they don't take a step back and look at us the human being. People forget, I think they don't take a step back and look at us as human beings. And all we want to do is have that human connection. And so much of that is lost. And having that isolation and going out in public or, you know, being away from anything basketball related can create and you could be subject to that sort of feeling on an everyday basis. And that in itself is a, you itself is a tough thing to have to go through.

So, Damar, walk us through what happened. And the two of you walk us through your experiences of why you wanted to talk about and not suffer personally, but to actually say, hey, I'm in this thing, and this is, I'm hurting, I'm struggling. Walk us through that story to bring people into it. I think for me, over a year, especially my career, this will be my 11th year in the league, I think I got to a point to where I suppressed so much pain, so much sadness, so much aggression, night in, night out. But at the same time, you see yourself getting

praised for so much as well. And you look at it from the standpoint of, that's not really me. That's not really how I feel. I want somebody else to see how I really feel and acknowledge that and not praise me for, you know, the person, DeMar DeRozan, NBA player that everybody see me as. And I think I just got overwhelmed, fed up with that. And when I first came out about it, it was for my own selfish reason. It was All-Star weekend in L.A. And I just wanted to get home. I hadn't seen my kids for a while.

And I get home, as soon as I get to L.A, I see myself on posters on the side of the hotel, just everything just coming at me. And all I want to do is go home and see my kids. But everybody on my back talking about, man, the All-Star game, we'll be doing this, this, this, just coming from everywhere. And I just lost it. It was just a moment where I just couldn't take it no more. I couldn't hide behind my shield anymore.

And I just came out and expressed it, hoping someone could relate and make me feel better. You see what I'm saying? So that was my reach and my calling while I did it. And then? So, you know, this is a trip for me sitting here, you know, having Damar next to me because, I mean, he was really the reason that I even came out and expressed what I had been going through since, I mean, really since I can remember.

I remember as an early kid, my anxiety and depression. I remember talking to my brother after the fact when I expressed it publicly, and he said, man, I remember we used to lose you for a couple, three weeks, and then finally Kevin would reappear again. And that was very powerful coming from him, because I think when you're in it, it doesn't matter what age you are, when you're in it, you seem to have blinders on, and it isn't until somebody else, either that you really love or at arm's distance, is able to say, hey, listen, you're going through

some shit, like, we need to help you, and the same thing with anxiety, too. Both of those things would manifest in rage fits, and I always had somewhere to go. So, you know, fast forward, having dealt with that throughout my entire career, really since I can remember my entire life, you know, was heading into not this past season but the season before. And it was summertime. A lot of terrible things were happening in my life. It was very tough to swallow what I was going through at that time. And basketball, as we mentioned, was always the last pillar, was always a safe place.

So that last pillar for me was November 5th against the Atlanta Hawks. We had a home game and I had an in-game panic attack. And I had nowhere to go. I had an in-game panic attack. And, you know, I had nowhere to go. I was kind of looking around. This was after halftime. And, you know, we come out, had a really terrible start. And I went back to the locker room and, like, I'm feeling like I'm having cardiac arrest. I don't know what's going on.

And I end up on the floor unconscious of our head athletic trainer's office. Go to the Cleveland Clinic. They run every test in the world, and I check out of there, and all the tests come up negative. And I'm thinking, well, what the fuck just happened? So, no, we had very high expectations. We had been to the finals three straight years before that. We were expected to go to the finals, if not win the finals.

And there was a lot of things going on personally, a lot of things going on with my family, and really the perfect storm. So fast forward, there's just this vicious cycle, vicious cycle that comes through. My teammates turned on me at one point because I had been going through a number of things. I wasn't able to tell them. I had broken my hand, so basketball was taken away from me, so I didn't have that outlet. And then what's crazy is in having DeMar sitting here to wrap this up is that,

I got to, I've been named to the all-star team, I was hurt, but I still decided to go there and sit on the bench and support the guys. But I got there, I'd set up the whole rest of the week in Parkland, Florida, happened. And I'm sitting there watching the TV like, wow, this is it's so crazy to consider all the kids, all the families, community, domestically, internationally, how this impacts everybody and gun violence. And it is so much bigger than all of us, as well as the young gentleman that put everybody in the position to have to suffer through that.

So Jackie McMullen, who's an ESPN writer, who did a five-part series about anxiety and depression and mental illness, she started talking to me, I think, what, Saturday was our practice day? So she had started talking to me, I think, what, Saturday was our practice day? So she had started talking to me, asking all these questions about, hey, there's some rumblings about teammates are saying you're unreliable or you're dealing, you're suffering with some serious mental issues

that are going to make you untrustworthy out there on the floor. So I felt it was time for me to maybe share my own story, but I wasn't quite there yet. So when DeMar, thank God, came out and shared his struggles with depression, I thought to myself, man, if you only knew his story and how he grew up and where he grew up, you know, it's a really, real special story in itself. So I thought, shit, if he can do it, I can do it. So, you know, I was that second guy that in that, you know, kind of a chain of events that, you know,

sometimes the second guy has to be the crazy one, but, you know, I wanted to make sure not only that he wasn't alone, but I didn't want to suffer silently anymore. I put it on the back burner. I hadn't discussed it with anybody for so long. My best friends didn't even know growing up. So that was an eye-opening experience for me.

I wrote my piece on the Players' Tribune. I pressed send, and a big part of the reason that we're here today is because we're able to just lay all our cards out and lay it all out there on the line. So I think it's a special time for where we are right now. I don't know if it's gonna be like a paradigm shift but I mean you can see strength in numbers here. We saw the hands raised and you know whether it's you and your first person or somebody at arm's distance we also know somebody that has dealt with mental illness and we can make a huge

impact because I believe the strength in the numbers is key to everything and making a movement in life. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Momentous. When it comes to high performance, whether you're leading a team, raising a family, pushing physical limits, or simply trying to be better today than you were yesterday,

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Plus, they look great. Clean, clear, no funky color distortion. Just good design, great science. And if you're ready to feel the difference for yourself, Felix Grey is offering all Finding Mastery listeners 20% off. Just head to FelixGray.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at checkout. Again, that's Felix Gray. You spell it F-E-L-I-X-G-R-A-Y.com and use the code FINDINGMASTERY20 at FelixGray.com for 20% off. Nobody does it alone. The fact that you had the courage to say, I can't do this alone anymore and I want to be connected. And Kevin, for you to have that sense that I want to have

a deeper meaning and purpose and not to privately suffer anymore is one of the great courages. Vulnerability is one of the great courages for humanity. And none of us do the extraordinary without understanding the space of vulnerability. And can you sense the vulnerability that I have even right now to put words to something that traditionally has been taboo? And to break taboo is a remarkable feat. of that, Damar, if you were to have a scale from minus 10 being the most depressed you could imagine and plus 10 being the most vibrant and alive, the most joy you can imagine, and zero would be kind of right in the middle, where are you today? Right now. Right, yeah, right now. I'm definitely on the plus side today. Okay, let's go, and Kevin you're up on this question in good. Okay, let's go.

Kevin, you're up on this question in a second, but let's go to the last 30 days. Where have you been on that scale? Oh, it's been a roller coaster. Shit has been a roller coaster. Yeah. I ain't going to lie. But me being more aware of it

and being able to have people in my life now that I opened up with and able to talk to or even in times just checking on me in a sense of having a conversation. Clearing my mind, helping me try to identify what's

causing my moves, kind of shortening them since when before they'd linger on for a couple days, a couple weeks. So, you know, granted, I still have my moments. But now being more vulnerable, willing to be more vulnerable and having somebody to talk to, to get me out of that space a little bit quicker has definitely been more helpful than before. Yeah. And so the vulnerability to speak one's truth is available for everybody. And it's not until we get into that space of vulnerability

do we really get connected to others. That's just how humanity works, and it's hard. So a quick show of hands, how many of you have felt extreme vulnerability in your life? That's what it's about. That's where growth happens. That's where deep connection takes place. And it's rare, and I would bet that you haven't done enough of it.

And these two men are reminding us of the importance to do that. So, Kevin, where have you been on the scale? Where are you now, right now, for context? Minus 10 plus. Right now? Well, I always relate it to, I don't know, you might have heard me talk about this before, but at least with my anxiety, you know, I wear it every day.

To me, it's like a weighted vest. I wake up in the morning, there's been a feeling in my chest, and we had talked about that, that I felt since, I mean, it's never, it's always been there. So as far as anxiety goes, I mean, I would put myself a little bit on the other side to where Damar is, but depression-wise, I have really done a good job of changing my relationship with that side of it. Your scale is more minus 10 being the most anxious a human can be, and then plus 10 being the joy, like deep joy, because they compete with each other now.

It's a large scale. It's a big, wide scale. I'd probably say anxiety-wise, probably like a minus three, but that's like, you know, we've been running around a lot the last two days. Right, yeah. No, but it's good. Like, I feel great. It's just something that's always there, and I'm still able to express myself. That's the biggest thing. Like, even with kids, I feel like so much of the time, anybody, they feel like if they're vulnerable or allow themselves to be vulnerable or speak their truth, that they're weak. But if anything, I've learned it's made me more comfortable in my own skin and also actually made me feel a little bit more evolved and part of a deeper, a tight knit community. Like I can remember looking back even over the past, what has it been, like, you know, 15, 18 months?

How long has it been? Yeah. I mean, it's crazy to see, you know, everywhere we go now. I know DeMar, it's probably similar, but people hold up signs talking about mental health. People, you'll come and speak to them after the game. People that have even, you know, kids young as eight years old that have tried to commit suicide have gone to the emergency room for those type of thoughts. And those, I mean, I know that we'll probably get into that too. Those numbers are

staggering. So just being able to be that superhero in that way for those younger kids and that next generation is a beautiful thing. So I think that higher purpose for both of us, I feel like I can speak for both of us when it comes to this, is like made us really change in how we look at our own depression, and it's made us feel more comfortable in our own skin that we're able to pay it forward, and we're doing it for a higher purpose. I love that. Harvard did a 75-year study where they deconstructed fulfillment. You could put that word purpose in.

And they took a look at like what are the main factors for people to live a fulfilled life. And one of them is that they grokked and wrestled with the difficult challenges and the difficult questions of life and you guys are doing that the second is they had really powerful relationships to have powerful relationships we have to be vulnerable and speak our truth so that someone can receive us and in return hopefully do the same for them. Now, depression, there's at least two ways that depression happens. People can be born with some wiring and some chemistry that just kind of happens, right? And then the second way is people can earn depression and anxiety. So you can talk yourself through and talk yourself into a chronic state of anxiety and depression. You've got to earn that.

And sometimes we're not aware of what we say to ourselves, how it impacts our physiology and our emotions, and ultimately our ability to live well. So when you guys deconstruct this, do you think that you had the organic type where you're kind of born? It sounds like maybe, Kevin, you struggled with that early days. Yes. And then do you

think that you earned yours through like a pattern or a thought pattern that just kind of got away from you at one time maybe it worked um yeah I think I grew up extremely rough you know seeing a lot of things before my my mind was even fully developed to comprehend a lot of things that put a dark spell in my mind as I carried on as I got older. I never understood it when I was young until I was able to look back at it as I got older. And I started to realize why I feel this way. I started questioning so many things and wondering so many things and why my rage, my anger, my moods and everything shift so suddenly. I could be around a group of people but yet feel so alone.

Like so many things used to come to my mind, and I definitely think it's a lot of things that I've seen that I grew up, that I have witnessed, that I've seen that I grew up that I have the witness that I made it through and I just got to a point to where I just want to understand it I want to know why it's carrying on with me because I don't want to be that person when I retire be miserable with a bunch of money and just hate you know I don't want to be that person you know what I mean like I really want to get to a point where I'm just, like, happy. You know, I felt myself going the wrong way with this depression, anxiety, and so many things I carried over from when I was young. One of the mechanisms from very early stages in our life that are traumatic and heavy and hard and difficult and beyond our years is we can develop this constellation of symptoms

that snap to what's called PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder. And it's actually a really bad name. And PTSD and depression hang out with each other. It's a bad name because there is trauma, but really what happens for people is that they organize their life to try to avoid re-traumatization. And that avoidance of re-traumatization is a protection and a cynic nature and an anger. And I don't know if that was you or not, but that is essentially what happens to folks that have PTSD

is that they change their lens of how they see the world to a protection model. 100%. Yeah. And then that's exhausting. Yeah. And then when we're depleted of resources, how many are depleted right now of resources? You know you're not at your best.

You're tired. You work too hard. You're not sleeping right. Raise your hand if you're a bit depleted. Oh, yeah. This is the game inside the game right now of living well in modern times is recovering properly in a highly stressful environment. And if you want to live an extraordinary life like the two of you are,

stress is involved and recovery is an important part of the game. Now, talk about perfectionism because perfectionism can work early days to be highly skilled, but it walks you right into something else. It opens up another door for us, which is not a good door. Yeah, for sure. I think for me, being young and having an imagination of just wanting to do something and be great, I love sports. I used to try to recreate every moment that I'd seen growing up,

whether it was outside, school to try to be something and I always felt like my only option to make it out of the camp was to play sports and I started to push myself and be so locked in I want to be good to where like damn this this is happening let me try to be great at this to where like, damn, this is happening. Let me try to be great at this to where I'm missing out kind of on my childhood because I'm not doing all the things that everybody else is doing. I'm doing all the things that everybody don't want to do. I'm putting in the work.

I'm doing it. I'm pushing my limits every single day to want to be good because I want to make it out to where you make it out and you get to a certain success and you look back like, damn, I didn't get to do that as a kid. I didn't get to do this, do this. There's one story I always tell, like, I wish I was able to enjoy college more because it don't seem like I was even in college. You went to USC. What are you going to say? Tamar, you walked right into that. I did.

Tamar's being serious and thoughtful, and then UCLA comes out of the corner like... He did. He did. He did. God damn, that's what I did. Kevin, be careful now because it's coming back. I didn't go to college for that long.

Oh, there we go. Good. My whole mindset going into college instead of looking at it like it's such a great honor, I'm looking at it like, okay, I got these X amount of months to work my ass off because I'm going to the NBA. That was my mindset to where everything else was a blur. You know what I mean? So that carried over with high school, you know, my everyday life because all I wanted to do was work to be something or somebody to make it out. So, Kevin, before you grab that thread, because this is really important, Damar,

is that when I hear that as a psychologist, I go, ooh, like, okay, here we are. Because there's this concept called identity foreclosure. And identity foreclosure is when you stop exploring other parts of our identity. And as a young talent, if you have a young talent in your life, and they're extraordinary at what they do, please talk to them about everything other than the thing that they're extraordinary at. Because they foreclose their identity. And what happens, if I could take a moment, Damar, is that what you did is you said, I am an athlete. And then I matter based on my athletic prowess. So when you go test yourself athletically and it's not going to maybe be good, then you don't matter. Can you relate to that? For sure. That's a really tortured way to go through life,

but it will get you good. Right. At an early stage, it'll get you great. I mean, look where you are. Yes. And it's such a messed up thing when you think about it because you look at the world today, that's why we get stereotyped and just looked at as athletes when we have so much more to offer. That's right. You know, like, that's just, you know. I got to that point to where it's like, shit, I'm more than a basketball player.

Like, my kids look at me like I'm the greatest person on earth. They could give a damn if daddy had a bad game. You know what I mean? That's right. Like, so when I had my first daughter, that changed my whole perspective on looking at life. And it gave me a different type of appreciation to want to have for myself. Because I am looked at more as something greater than just an athlete. Because we don't even go and get to do this for so long.

But we put everything we had into this. But at the end of the day, I'm a man at the end of the day. Like, and I want to be looked at as a man because I look at every individual on earth like they are individual. I don't care what they have, what they don't have. And that's what's wrong with the world today because we look at somebody for who they are or who they perceive to be. A lot of people find insecurities on not being accepted for who they try to be. A lot of people find insecurities

on not being accepted for who they try to be. Just be yourself, you know? I can actually speak to that. That's a great point, is that, you know, mental illness and mental wellness as a whole, it doesn't discriminate. Doesn't matter where you're from, what gender, socioeconomic status, nothing. None of that matters. Throw that out. It doesn't matter where you're from, what gender, socioeconomic status, nothing.

None of that matters. Throw that out. It doesn't discriminate. So I can remember last year, it was game four of the finals. Yes, we got swept. So there's your little. See, y'all swept us. Y'all swept us.

Kevin, you got there before he did. That's not quite fair, right? That was a defense mechanism. That was sharp. Well played. Well played. No, but it was game four of the NBA finals. I remember waking up.

I mean, I was still him. There's a couple people, Shannon and Kate here as my witness, an Anthony Bourdain fan. So I watched a ton of parts unknown. I felt like I had traveled the world with the man. I felt like, you know, he got to go. He was universally well-liked, had money, had a great family, got to travel everywhere, ask the best questions,

and eat sometimes good food, sometimes shitty food. But yet he still took his life. And in that same week, Kate Spade had taken her life because she felt, oh, my God, it's going to hurt my brand. You know, if I admit that I'm going through these certain things and it's going to hurt my brand. So to me, it just taught us that and us being up here now is that success is not immune to depression. It doesn't matter how successful you are. This thing doesn't discriminate. you are, this thing to undiscriminate, and as I mentioned earlier, at some capacity, whether it's you or somebody you know or somebody that, you know, you run close to in your circle is going

to be dealing with this and might be suffering silently. So, I mean, it's just not being afraid to having those conversations, but to DeMar's point, it's amazing that we're sitting up here because we're, I'm thankful to be in a league where we're not only supported to talk about such tough topics or topics that are going to put us in a light that maybe is going to be a little uneasy and we're not comfortable in, but they actually push us to speak about it, to be more than basketball players. So on my end, you know, hit it a million times. I know he's probably getting sick of it, but I thank DeMar for that. But we had talked about this morning that just about youth sports and the next generation, like now kids can feel like at that demographic, whether it be, you know, when they conceptualize these type of things or be subject to what you went through growing up, you know, whether it's five or six years old, all the way through 18, before they leave for college, like they're thinking, hey, I can be the next DeMar DeRozan, I can be the next LeBron James, but not only in terms of athletic prowess, but also, man,

I can speak about mental health, mental wellness, I can get involved in things bigger than myself, I can make the world a better place. And with, I example of LeBron James because he's so close and near and dear to me. He started an I Promise school, which is a school K-12 that is basically pushing kids into college and giving them scholarship programs and dumping so much money into the youth in the greater Ohio area. So it is so much more than basketball. It is so much more than success. It is so much more than success. This is all of us. And I think as an individual, we just want to be able to be, yeah, looked at as a person. And I hope, you know, if anybody have ever spoken to DeMar or spoken to

myself or guys in the league, yeah, there's some times where, you know, we kind of want to be left alone and be in our space. But if you just take a time to connect with us on a personal level, I think that you'll really feel that authenticity and that we are human beings and we want to make positive change in this world. So I think it's only special. It's only the tipping point here for what we can accomplish, especially in our league. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Over the years, I've learned that recovery doesn't just happen when we sleep. It starts with how we transition and wind down. And that's why I've built intentional routines into the way that I close my day. And Cozy Earth has become a new part of that. Their bedding, it's incredibly soft, like next level soft. And what surprised me the most is

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our community. Again, the code is FindingMastery for 40% off at CozyEarth.com. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner, and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more. It's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it

matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com slash findingmastery and use the code findingmastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's calderalab, C-A-L-D-E-R-L-A-B.com slash findingmastery. It really does feel like a beginnings of shifting for global conversation about flourishing and wellness.

And it's not necessarily about mental illness, but it's about how to organize our inner life to flourish in life. And it is independent of geographic region and ethnicity. Now, that being said, that in gender, women are more in danger for depression than men. And interestingly enough, globally, is that the U.S. and affluent countries are at more risk than countries of poverty. That's an interesting thought because one of your colleagues, Charles Barkley, had something to say about depression. Do you want to respond in any way to his take on depression? You mean saying that we have all the money in the world and we shouldn't be depressed?

Stupid. Stupid. That's right. That's right. Matter of fact, maybe that the old insight that more money, more problems is actually true. And that being said, it does not mean that all of us in this room don't struggle. 50% of folks in

the US have had an episode, a serious episode with depression. 20 to 25% have struggled with something grave and serious. Of that 25%, some of you in this room, some of your loved ones, 39% have thought about suicide. How about it? So I, as a personal disclosure, I lost a family member to suicide. So it's amongst us. It's one of the most tragic experiences, one of the most helpless experiences when a loved one makes a fatal decision. And my hope with the two men here that are changing the conversation about wellness and flourishing is that we make change. And so this conversation is not good enough, not alone. But we need to make change in talking about investing in the inner life.

And it's not complicated. Mindfulness, it's a great, powerful tool. Self-talk, how you speak to yourself about your potential, the ability to breathe, to regulate your emotions. These are available to all of us. They require training. And these men are dedicated to growth. And that is a reminder for all of us.

How well do you flourish? And how well are you organizing your life every day to grow? And Kevin, I know you had your hand up. And I just kind of went on and I got on my soapbox. I'd like to get down for a minute. I'm just being a sponge for growth right now. Like I'm just, you're the expert. I'm just. No, yeah, we're all in it together now. No, no, for sure. But I'm just saying like, I'm, I'm still that was one of the first things I said. I still say it to today and I feel like it's going to be life work for all of us here, but like, I don't know all the answers. So I just cling to all of that. I don't know the answers either, but I have spent my life trying to understand how the inner world works. And I couldn't tell you when this is going to sound

twisted, but when you said I'm severely depressed, I said, yes, you know, like you're going to change a lot of lives. Kevin, when you said, hey, me too, I said, oh my, yes. And so it doesn't, we don't need to get to mental illness to get to the other side. We can say to ourselves like, hey, let's start now, wherever I am on that hey, let's start now. Wherever I am on that spectrum, let's start now getting better. And so can you teach us, how do you get better? How are you working right now? What are you doing to get better? Well, for me, the first thing I did was I saw a therapist. I mean, that was literally the first thing that I did. I think it was even less than 48 hours after the fact,

cuz I was just the guy in the mirror that looked right at him and kind of avert my eyes cuz I didn't pass the mirror test. I didn't like what I was seeing. And a lot of that came from just looking within myself and thinking, man, I don't wanna, and that was kind of to Damar's point too. Like I wasn't able to enjoy my youth or time in college or even, you know, this heading into my 12th year, I'm a year ahead of DeMar, just not enjoy all my time. So I didn't want to look back and think, man, what was I chasing? I didn't, you know, I didn't do it for

the money. I think, you know, I'm not saying that's, you know, I mean, it's a great currency that matters, but it's not the only currency that matters. I think time is like I've been trying to adjust my time and be better than the people in my life just by, you know, breaking down the 168 hours every single week so that I can focus on my core competencies, whether it be, you know, my business or my sport or whether it be my relationships or whether it be, you know, my hobbies. I'm trying to be into a lot more. So I think, yeah, it all started off with seeing a therapist. Shortly then after, I was one of the people that medication has really helped me

in a big way, I started to adopt meditation more into my life. I know that some of us in here and elsewhere, when you say you meditate, they kind of look at you like you have a tail or something. No, I think still working out, chasing the game. I think these guys probably want me to shut up about that analogy. Our metaphor I use is like, you know, chase the game and everything good in life will chase you back or chase what you love and everything you love in life. They hate what I'm saying, so they're leaving. Damn, y'all out. Kevin's full of it right now.

I like it. All right, I'm losing it here. No, but those are, I'll wrap it up and let Damar speak but those are just a few things that I've turned to that have been very helpful for me but the list is ongoing like I'm open to the possibility of anything just to

not only help myself but even for my fund that I've set up try to create tools in order to make big change in both physical and emotional well-being, because that's a whole other can of worms when you speak about, you know, physical well-being, and, you know, what people are going through inside their bodies, and how bad that can, you know, mess with their brains as far as depression and anxiety as well.

Damar, before you tackle this, so deconstructed, you went and got help. You went to somebody who is learned about the inner life. You realized that time and the ability to be present is our precious commodity. You played the game of humor, kind of. Well, I do. That is one of the things when I was young, too, like I think as young. Wait, hold on. That is one of the things when I was young, too. Like, I think as young. Wait, hold on. You didn't find that funny at all, did you? No, because, like, I do think it's funny.

But then I was like, oh, something registered in my brain. Like, oh, I have this thought about how I, when I was young, I would hide. And I still do it sometimes. Like, I hide some of my insecurities or my depression, my anxiety with humor. I think a lot of people tend to do that. And I think, especially as young men as well, like I was, I wasn't a bully by any means in high school, but I was one of the kids that I just wanted to be, I wanted to be accepted. I want to be accepted by kids. I think we can all relate to that at any capacity. I was, so I was

the one kid where, you know, and like a lot of my friends, when we were running in the pack, you know, we had to try and be funny, and sometimes it was at other people's expense, and other people would be hurt and have to go deal with that for 24 hours a day, a week, a month, whatever it was, and, but then if you caught me alone, like I was, I was a, I was a empathetic, I was good, I was a good man, I was a good kid. And those were values and characteristics and things were embedded in me at an early age. But I think I was just trying so hard to be accepted that I wasn't even seeing the effect that I might have been having on other people when I was in that group setting with a bunch of young men. So I think young men are even far more behind than the rest of, you know, anybody at any age, anything. So I think young men

are the ones that need to, you know, step up and just hold themselves more accountable in that regard. So that's why I didn't laugh. Yeah, kind of intense and right at the same time. See, and I'm losing more shit. So, so, Damar, like, pull on that thread, and as, as we're going, I want to hit two more things that you said, meditation, medication, and then giving to others. Those are all beautiful recipes for doing well and feeling well in life. It's about getting out and doing something proactively and helping the world to be a better place is actually a known therapy that's evidence-based. Damar, what do you do to flourish in life? I think me just being able to come out, just accepting to be vulnerable was my biggest issue. Being able to talk, try to figure out ways I can express myself.

Talking to somebody that listens, who pays attention, who gives you insight, who builds you up, not feeling like you everybody's crutch, not feeling like you've got to put on this hard shield 24-7. So for me it was just being able to accept being vulnerable. I got tired of feeling like I had to be the toughest person every day, all day, because that's how I grew up. I remember my dad telling me, you better not cry, you better be tough. I'm like, God damn, I'm six years old.

So carrying that over and the environment that I grew up in, and you just have to be hard all the time. So for me coming out, me being vulnerable, me accepting that, being able to figure out things, identify things, and more willing to want to do things. Before, I used to push away at everything. So for me, I talked to a therapist early on too, but not saying nothing wrong with it.

But it just, that wasn't for me. I realized I had to just be around something that loved me back and open up to what loved me. It's been going pretty cool. Yeah, that's beautiful. So can you relate to the armor? Can both of you relate to having this really shiny armor that you put on as a 10 year old, 16 year old,

18 year old, can you relate to the shiny armor? And because Damar, what you're talking about is, I took the armor off and I was tired of shining it up and carrying it around. I was definitely an Iron Man. I was tired. I'm an Iron Man for sure. You were an Iron Man, yeah. And it's a really scary thing to take that armor off and say, okay, this is me.

Well, it's the crazy thing about the Iron Man analogy because when he first made his suit, it was way too heavy. And then he was like, you know what? My suit isn't working out for me. And he came back, and he was still Iron Man. That's what I think about when you look at DeMar. Here I am again.

We spoke earlier. I should follow him everywhere because now I'm his fucking hype man. No, I'm saying it just makes you more involved. I don't look at DeMar any differently than I did before. If anything, I'm like, yeah, okay, that's my guy. And he will still dunk on me and point at me and look at the camera. Come on, Damar.

It doesn't change at all. He'll still knock your block off at any time he steps on the floor. He just is willing to admit that he's been struggling with something that, you know, a lot of us are afraid to admit. And at your own time, like, it's fine. Like, everybody, you know, goes through life at their own pace. But I think at some point, it's just really, really healthy to definitely shed some of that armor. And then, spoiler alert, I think he died in the last. He wasn't wearing the armor.

I think all those battle wounds make you who you are. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is, I think, like I said, it makes you more evolved and is, no, it's really a... Yeah, sorry, they're laughing at me because they haven't seen the movie yet. Is that right? I'm sorry. Damn, you just said... Oh, you're gonna... You're gonna lose more now. Yeah, he sure did. Yeah, that, they're laughing at me because they didn't see the movie yet. Is that right? I'm sorry. Damn, you just said, oh! You're going to lose more now.

Yeah, he showed it. Yeah, that's too bad. Right, I really hope none of your kids see this because those superhero movies, I feel like I'm 12 years old again. He just gave it away. I just gave it away. Man, no more Batman parties for me. I'm sorry, yeah. Honestly, I was just reading the message board,

so I don't even know if it's true or not. Yeah, so. This is Iron Man right here. Yeah, except he's going to be here for a long time. There is a truth about earning our scars, and there's something very powerful about doing difficult things, and none of us end up being able to go through difficult experiences in life without vulnerability, without some sort of unsettledness, without knowing and embracing,

watch this, the unfolding, unpredictable, unknown, which is always now. But when we go through those experiences and they're difficult, we earn the right to say something very powerful to ourself, which is, I can do difficult things. And we have to earn those scars to say I can do difficult things. There is no pathway through that without vulnerability. There is no courage without vulnerability. And there is no true understanding of human potential without getting into that space.

Every day, they don't know if they're going to win or lose, and they still give it their best go. We don't know if they're going to win or lose, and they still give it their best go. We don't know how the next moment's going to unfold, nor our life unfolds, but on that note, we are agents of our own life, either co-creating or creating, depending on your spiritual or your philosophical belief, the experience that we have in the present moment. That being said, can you each walk us through in your most beautiful way, when you invite your imagination of what you hope the future could be, can you share what you would imagine if you could influence many? What would life look like? I believe that children are here. For you. For me?

Kevin's talked a bunch. Sunny, tropical place. Sunny, tropical place. That's what I envision. Just a sunny, tropical place. What does that mean? Like just relaxing, being able to hear nature in the most peaceful, calming way. That's how I envision it.

And then if people can't get to your remote island where it's sunny and tropical, what would you hope that others could learn from your experience? It's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay to want to be better. It's okay to break yourself down to be able to build yourself back up to be something better and stronger. How cool is that? Kevin, there's only... I don't know how to say it any better.

Really? No, I mean, you can ask the question, but that was pretty damn good. Yeah, it was good. But you've got a mission too now. What is your mission in life? No, I mean, you can ask the question, but that was pretty damn good. Yeah, it was good. But you've got a mission, too, now. What is your mission in life? I mean, at least I think as far as this topic is concerned and my fund is concerned,

it's just inspiring people to live their healthiest lives while providing tools, which, you know, that's a big part of the reason that we're here and we're doing the work, and it's to impact physical and emotional well-being. You know, as I kind of alluded to earlier, because a lot of that chronic inflammation, like I've seen family members, I've seen my father, and, you know, some younger people around me, whether they've dealt with cancer, whether they've, you know, even been in a car crash, have dealt with chronic inflammation and how poorly that affects the mind.

So I think both of those do go hand in hand so much. Just finding ways to impact both sides of the coin and knowing that I don't know all the answers, but being open to the possibility that there is so many things that can heal people. So if you tell me to look to the future, I mean, that's, I mean, I think DeMar really, really hit it on the head, but I spoke to it a little bit this morning. That's our time's up, I guess. No, it's just like any movement or any group of people, you know, I spoke about all the movements, whether it be like LGBT, Black Lives Matter, Me Too, you know, even this we're sitting here talking about now, and that goes, you know, even this we're sitting here talking about now,

and that goes, you know, all these transcend. We're all people at the end of the day, and we all need to find ways to, you know, have empathy, you know, pay it forward to the next person, and then just set up, you know, our kids and the youth to be better as well, because I think there is a lot of unrest or uneasiness, maybe especially in America, and a lot of that can be finger-pointed and pointed in different directions. But if anything, it's allowed us to take a step back and say, okay, what do we really need? What is vital?

What's important to us? So I think it's just continuing to have these tough conversations, to have open dialogue on these tough conversations, and then from there I think the's just continuing to have these tough conversations, to have, you know, open dialogue on these tough conversations. And then from there, I think the possibilities are endless. So we're going to open it up to questions. And oh, yeah, I love this. So we got some mics that are going to run around. And before you get to a mic, there's only three things you can train as a human. You can train your craft, you can train your body, and you can train your mind. This conversation is about the tools to train your mind and to destigmatize that this is

available for all of us. In that light, let's ask some really good questions. We've got time for one question. Damn. It's my fault. Sorry. That's a moderator's fault. Damn. It's my fault. Sorry. That's a moderator's fault. Yes. Demar, why don't you choose?

Since he ruined the movie for her. You haven't seen it? Seriously? Yeah. Have you not seen it? I've seen it. So, how did he die? No, I'm lying. So my question is really geared towards you,

but I guess you all can answer at the same time. So basically, if you can think back to before you were who you are now or who we perceive you as now, you know, as pro basketball players with, you know. So if you could think about the time before you got to where you are now, have you ever taken the time to think about the fame and about how all of this notoriety and being in the public eye so much would affect you and would affect your personal life? No. I never would have imagined this type of fame with attention, nothing. That would have never crossed my mind. All I wanted to ever do was play basketball. Everything else that came with it was bullshit, honestly. I never wanted none of that. And as a performance psychologist,

do you feel as though there are enough preliminary screenings or even conversations with athletes that are about to embark on such a in-the-scene, in-the-public-eye career to kind of evaluate where they are? Or does it kind of wait to where they get like you know no offense but to that point where you have to put yourself out there there are great diagnostic tools that are available to us they are not readily accessible in the elite sport game at this point and so it's coming it is coming because of this conversation and their conversation they've had for a long time.

And it's a great question because screenings can identify triggers and traps for people to fall into. And I wanna just say the last two things. One is there a dark side to humanity. We all suffer with it. We don't need to suffer privately. There's a cost to exploring our very best and it is not a lonely cost.

It does not need to be that. And the last thing I want to say is I'm honored to be on the stage with the both of you. So I want to say thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you.

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